March 13, 2025 Show with Matthew Everhard on “Worshiptainment: The Modern Church’s Golden Calf”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of March 2025.

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And I am thrilled to have a first -time guest to me, guest on with me today.

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His name is Matthew Everhart. He is an author and the pastor of Gospel Fellowship Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the

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Presbyterian Church in America, PCA denomination in Valencia, Pennsylvania.

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Today we're going to be addressing Matthew's new book, Worshiptainment, The Modern Church's Golden Calf.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Matthew Everhart.

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Well, thank you so much for having me. You know, I was looking at your website today and I noticed how many amazing guests you've had in the past, and I realized that either

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I finally made it or else you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

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I'm very glad to be with you today. It's a real honor to be on your show. Thank you so much for inviting me.

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Well, there have been members of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience who have urged me to invite you on the program, and I looked into who you are and was very impressed, and so therefore that is why you are here, and glad to have the honor to interview you today.

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Why don't you tell our listeners something about the church where you pastor—Gospel

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Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Valencia, Pennsylvania. Yeah, well, it's a wonderful church.

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The sweetest people in the whole world, for sure. We are a Reformed Bible -believing church. Obviously, as you mentioned, we're part of the

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PCA, and we are in here Ascension Presbytery. That'd be the presbytery of which we are participants in the larger denomination, the

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PCA. We're a faithful church, I think. The preaching here is okay. Just okay.

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But we have two worship services on the Lord's Day. We have 830, and then we have 11 o 'clock in the morning, so two services in the morning.

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We have Sunday school. We're still doing that. We still believe in that Sunday school hour of extra instruction, and then we have midweeks, too.

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So it's a great, wonderful church, and if you're anywhere north of Pittsburgh—we're about 30 minutes due north of Pittsburgh—so we'd love to see you in real life at some point if you want to come visit us.

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Well, I would love to see if I can convince one day, by God's mercy, to have my nephew who lives in Greensburg or Greenberg, Pennsylvania.

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I can't remember which it is. Do you know? It's near Pittsburgh. Is it Greens with an S or Greenberg?

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You know, my Pittsburgh geography fails me at this point. I should know that, and everybody's going to punish me hard for not knowing this.

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But, you know, I'm actually from Northeast Ohio, so I grew up in the Akron area of Northeast Ohio, and then we lived in Florida for 10 years as well.

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So Pittsburgh is not my hometown, so there's a bunch of little boroughs and counties and all kinds of little cities and hamlets.

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Somebody's going to hammer me for not knowing this, but I'm sorry, I don't know. Well, I'm going to keep urging my nephew,

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Michael, who lives in that area, to visit your church. He's not a believer, so it would take a miracle for him to even visit the church to begin with.

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He's a wonderful guy, wonderful, I was going to say young man. He's only five years younger than me, but he's a brilliant man and a published author and a professor at Seton Hill University.

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OK, well, that sounds great. Love to have him. If he likes expository preaching and as an unbeliever, maybe he wouldn't have a taste for that, but as an intellectual, maybe he would.

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You never know what's going to catch the mind of people and trigger their curiosity about the things of the

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Lord. Sometimes it's something we say about church history or something of philosophy or something of the scriptures that the

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Lord might use just as a hook to get people interested. So it'd be great to have him if he ever came. By the way,

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Ted in Moundville, Alabama said it's Greensburg. I don't know how

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Ted in Alabama knows that, but he seemed to know. He probably

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Googled it, maybe, I don't know. Yeah, and if anybody wants to find out more about this congregation, go to gospelfellowshippca .org,

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gospelfellowshippca .org, and we will, God willing, repeat that later on in the broadcast.

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Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Turpin's Iron Radio whenever we have a first -time guest.

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We have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised and the kinds of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So I'd love to hear a summary of your story.

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Yeah, thank you so much for asking. That's a very wonderful question, and I love to answer it because the

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Lord has been gracious in my life. I was raised in the church. I was raised in a liberal, though mainline,

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Lutheran church, interestingly enough, and I was doing my catechism, as Lutheran young people are wont to do as they're preparing to come to the

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Lord's table for the first time. And I remember in those days—we're talking middle school days—that

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I learned quite a bit about the true and living God. We had to memorize the Ten Commandments, and we had to learn the creeds of the faith—the

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Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed. I'm assuming this was not an Elka church. It was actually, as a matter of fact.

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It was, yes. But, you know, back in those days—we're talking like the 80s—so they were probably a little bit more solid than they are—probably considerably more solid than they are now.

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The kinds of wokeism that we see today culturally had not emerged.

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It was in seminal form, but it had not emerged in full Marxist bloom at that point.

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So, yeah, we still learned our creeds and our Ten Commandments and the Apostles' Creed, and we had to go before the

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Lutheran pastor and share something of our faith. But interestingly enough, as much as I learned about the

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Lord, and I did have a weighty respect and reverence for the Lord, I never heard—and maybe it was because my heart was so hard—I did not hear the gospel in all of this.

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One day in eighth grade, I was invited to go to a friend's church, a very different church from the church that I had grown up in.

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The church that I grew up in had stained glass and statues of the saints and hundred -foot ceilings. I mean, it was a

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Gothic cathedral in downtown Akron, Trinity Church, a famous church. And I went to a church where they had basketball hoops in the gym and folding chairs, and I didn't even know you could do that.

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I didn't know that was allowed in church. And the youth pastor there preached a fiery gospel message of repent and believe.

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And I remember this day, Chris, like it was yesterday. He handed out note cards, and he told us, you write down the names of the people that you know that aren't saved.

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And I didn't even know what he was talking about, because we didn't talk like that in the Lutheran church. And he took those note cards, he gathered them up, and he threw them in a fire.

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And the Lord used that to terrify me by his judgments.

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And yet, very much in sort of a Jonathan Edwards, sinners in the hands of an angry God style, that's what converted my heart.

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And he told me to repent and believe, and you better believe I repented and believed that night.

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And I had a rather dramatic conversion experience because of that terror. And then

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I went home, and I preached my first sermon by telling my sister about the gospel that I just heard.

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And I made every effort to lead her to the Lord. So that was my conversion experience in eighth grade.

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And then after that, I actually got in a pretty decent church for a while, a larger church, evangelical, broadly speaking, non -denominational.

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And I had some good pastors that were Bible -preaching pastors, expository preachers that cared about me.

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They showed up at some of my wrestling matches and put a little time in me as a young man, and before I knew it, the

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Lord was calling me to ministry. And by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I knew there was only one thing

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I wanted to do with my life, and that was to be either a preacher or a missionary. And so that was kind of my first existential dilemma is whether I should be a preacher or a missionary.

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Wow. Well, where in your journey or how in your journey did you come to discover the doctrines of sovereign grace, embrace them, love them, and how did you know you received a call from God to enter into pastoral ministry?

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Yeah, great question. Well, let's talk about the doctrines of grace first. So at about that time that I was wrangling with this call to be either a pastor or a missionary,

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I started my first degree at a Christian school called

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Malone College. It's not necessarily a Reformed school. In fact, it's actually a modern -day

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Quaker school by traditional heritage. But I was listening to really good stuff.

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I had some good professors. I had one Reformed professor who was teaching at Malone College.

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He was excellent. And I was listening on my drives—I was a commuter to college—listening to Sproul and Alistair Begg and John MacArthur on the radio constantly.

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And so Reformed theology started to get into my bloodstream. And I didn't exactly even know what it was.

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It just seemed like the right truth to me. It just seemed like the gospel. And so first I came to a conviction of, let's say, the

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Ordo Salutis and salvation by grace, understanding better doctrines like predestination, justification, sanctification, things like that.

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Later, some ecclesiology began to make sense to me as I entered into, next, a

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Presbyterian church for one of my first jobs, an early youth pastor job. So ecclesiology made sense to me then.

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And then I started studying further things, the Lord's Supper, baptism, etc., eventually some eschatology as well.

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And so I came to pretty hard and fast conclusions through all of the study, reading some of the great ones, reading

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Calvin firsthand, reading Spurgeon, reading a lot of things like Louis Burkhoff's Systematic Theology.

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And the doctrines of grace just intrinsically made sense to me. So that's sort of how it came into my heart and my life.

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And I love those doctrines and believe them and preach them with all my heart today. And when did you discover and how did you discover that you had received a call from God to enter pastoral ministry?

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Yeah, so that happened really early on. I'd say I was a freshman or a sophomore, as I recall the chronology there.

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And again, it was through the tender care and true Bible teaching of some of my pastors that I was inspired.

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And I remember one of my pastors used a phrase that stuck with me, kind of cut me to the quick.

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He said that we should live lives that matter for time and eternity. And that phrase, time and eternity, really resonated with me.

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And I knew that some kind of ministerial vocation was what the Lord was calling me to. But then, you know,

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Chris, as we talk about what calling is in Reformed circles, we often talk about the internal call, which is our sense, our feeling that the

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Lord is calling us to do something. But then there's the external approbation of that call where others around you begin to articulate to, even verbally, that this makes sense for you.

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This is something that the Lord has for you. You seem to be manifesting some gifts in this area. And so I was entrusted to start teaching some

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Bible studies and things like that. And I never looked back. You know, I'm not a guy that had a different career first.

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Right out of college, I went to the mission field to Africa for six months.

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And so I've been doing full -time ministry since I was 22 years old. And I'm 48 now, almost 50.

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So 25 -some years of full -time ministry. But I love it.

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I was ordained in 2007 as a Presbyterian minister. And now

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I continue on laboring day by day to preach, teach, love, counsel, visit, exhort, and serve in any way that I can.

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It's the best career and a wonderful life. And I'm truly thankful to God for calling me into ministry.

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Amen. And I believe you do have content on YouTube.

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Yes. Yes, sir. I have a YouTube channel, and some of your listeners may be aware of that.

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I do a lot of 15 - or 10 -minute pieces on theology or church history or sometimes practical ministry techniques and things like that.

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Some of my videos are more broad for a general Christian audience, just about how to study your Bible, note -taking techniques,

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Bible study techniques. Some of my content is more pastorally specific, like preaching videos and things like that, even preaching technique videos.

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And then I do a lot of videos to try to introduce people to Reformed theology. I have one playlist of—it's called

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The Reformed View, where I talk about what is the Reformed perspective on various iterations of questions related to theology, life, philosophy, meaning, significance, etc.

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And believe it or not, it's been an amazing way to reach people with the Gospel. And I would say almost every

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Lord's Day, we have somebody that comes into the doors of Gospel Fellowship, and they say that they heard about us through that YouTube channel.

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So I don't do a lot of controversy stuff, and I don't get on there and rant about politics very often or people that I don't like.

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I don't do any of that nasty stuff. I just try to teach the Bible and explain the Reformed faith. And it's a really, really nice way to introduce people to some of the doctrines of grace that you asked about earlier.

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Now, forgive me if I'm holding back a chuckle, because you said you don't get involved in controversy stuff, and yet you wrote a book called

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Worshiptainment, The Modern Church's Golden Calf. Well, I don't think the regulative principle is controversial.

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For me, that's like a building block, foundational point. But you're right, yes. And there's some kind of—in each chapter in Worshiptainment, and we'll talk about the book,

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I'm sure, as we go, there's a little example of something that's, I think, ridiculous and really presses the boundaries of the pale of acceptability even within broadly evangelical circles.

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So there's a little bit of rib -tickling there as far as like, come on, people, you're not really doing this in your churches, right?

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But, yeah, it's a book to try to call people back to a more biblical—and I would say a serious form of high reverence view of the worship of the true and living

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God. So, yeah, you're right. You got me with that one. True. And you mentioned the regulative principle of worship.

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Not everybody who claims that ideology is in agreement with each other.

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True. We have different views. We have those among us who are exclusive psalmists.

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We have those among us who are exclusive acapella.

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And we have those that are neither one of those who sing hymns in addition to the

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God -breathed psalms and who either use musical instruments, which most

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Reformed Christians do. But there are those that are even exclusive acapella who are not exclusive psalmists.

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I have been greatly edified by my brother

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John D. Price, who wrote an excellent book defending exclusive acapella worship in his book

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Old Light on New Worship. And that is actually the position that Spurgeon took.

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He was a hymn singer, but it was exclusively acapella. But where would you land in that orbit of the regulative principle of worship?

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Yeah, great question. So I have my feet in both worlds, to be honest, because our church,

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Gospel Fellowship PCA, we do use instruments, especially the organ or the piano, and we do sing hymns.

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But we do sing psalms pretty much every Lord's Day. So on one hand,

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I guess you could define my position as an inclusive psalm -lity position, meaning that we always sing the psalms, but we do hymns as well.

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But on the other hand, I have my foot in the RPCNA denomination because I'm an adjunct professor at RPTS, which is the official seminary of the

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RPCNA denomination, the Covenanter Presbyterians, who do exclusive psalm -lity.

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And so I try to be very careful as I articulate my views on this. Now, everybody knows that we sing hymns at Gospel Fellowship, but I have a very strong affinity for and respect for my exclusive psalm -lity brothers.

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So in one place in my book, I do talk about psalm -lity. I think it's something that should be recovered by the church.

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It does make my heart somewhat sad to know that there are churches that never sing the psalms at all.

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And I do think that there's a real dearth and a lack of depth and profundity if you're not going to sing the psalms.

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But at the same time, I try to respect my EP brothers.

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And whenever I'm at the seminary teaching as an adjunct faculty person, I would always defend the positions of the seminary because I think that those positions hold integrity, even if that's not the practice of our own church.

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We're reducing the hymns as well. Yes, I know that the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America that you mentioned, they are also exclusive a cappella.

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That's correct, yeah. And if you've never been to a service where they sing the psalms a cappella, it is amazing.

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They are some of the best singers. And to be in the presence of true Covenanter psalm singers that have been singing three -part harmonies and know the psalms from heart for generations, passing them on to their children, it is truly a wonder to behold.

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And again, I feel almost bad for people that haven't at least had the experience of hearing a psalm sung a cappella because it's truly a wonderful way to worship the true and living

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God. Yes, I have had the honor and privilege to worship with the saints in Durham, North Carolina, at First Reformed Presbyterian Church where Kent Butterfield is the pastor.

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He happens to be the husband of Rosaria Butterfield, the former lesbian and Marxist college professor who was saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and was introduced to Kent.

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And they have been married for quite some time and had the privilege of having breakfast in their home several years ago and then from there going to the

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Sunday morning worship service with them. And it was really beautiful to hear the a cappella psalmody.

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And she is a wonderful person too, by the way, a person who I highly, highly respect. I teach a class called

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Evangelism at RPTS at the seminary. It's a core required class that every MDiv student needs to take.

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And in one of my lectures, I go through her autobiography as an example of one of the ways that churches can reach people who are lost with the gospel.

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And if you have not read that book, it is definitely one to be commended. It's an excellent, not only is it just a moving experience to read of the

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Lord rescuing a person like that who we might think is part of the unreachable people.

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I mean, you know, the LGBTQ plus movements at a secular university, a literature professor, no doubt.

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And yet the Lord saved her. And it wasn't through any sort of extraordinary dynamic thing, like some movie or TV, Christian TV show or something like that.

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But rather it was the love of average, ordinary saints in the church who cared enough to have her over for dinner multiple times, corresponding, writing back and forth with her, answering questions, being with her through grief and disappointments of life.

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And the Lord used that. And so I'm privileged to know her. And just a humble brag, she texts me from time to time, just encouraging little notes of just appreciation for each other's ministry.

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And if she happens to be out there today, so thankful, so thankful for her faithful witness to the

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Lord. Yeah. Very sweet, dear sister in the Lord. And Kent is a wonderful brother.

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Well, we're going to our first commercial break. And when we return, we are going to delve into the book that I just mentioned,

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Worship Chainment, The Modern Church's Golden Calf. If you have a question, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the

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Let's say you're a member of a church and you are troubled by the worship services, you're troubled by the music, you're troubled by something else going on.

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So we would want you to remain anonymous. But if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

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Now we're going to hear from some words from our sponsors, including our first sponsor, who is one of our latest sponsors,

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune

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God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing Psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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That's securecommgroup .com. But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor,

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Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

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He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

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That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

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I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

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Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem. And I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for reformed

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Don't forget to mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. On placing your order. We're now back with Matthew Everhart and we are discussing his book,

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Worship Tainment, The Modern Church's Golden Calf. And once again, if you'd like to join us with a question, there are some folks waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

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But if you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. In fact, one more issue

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I'd like to address with you before we move on to the book is I know that you are a Jonathan Edwards scholar.

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You've taught on Edwards. You've written on Edwards. Tell us something about what you have written.

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I do already know. I want you to be a guest on the program again, as soon as possible, perhaps more than once to address

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Edwards. But tell us about your discovery of Edwards, your love for him and what you have to offer the body of Christ about Edwards.

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Yeah. Thank you so much for asking that. I love talking about Edwards. So I teach an Edwards class at RPTS, which by the way is a great place to get a seminary education.

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If you're looking for an education that's distinctly reformed and adheres to the Westminster standards and is faithful to the

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Lord and scripture. Is Barry York still the president? Yes, he is. He's a good friend of mine.

33:22

I love Barry. He's a wonderful man and a godly leader. So I'm thankful for him. Tell him

33:27

I said hello. I will definitely do that. Yes, sir. So I came to know

33:32

Edwards in a very deep way. When I was doing my doctoral research, I was at RTS Orlando, not to be confused.

33:40

And I was doing my dissertation project. And we were told when we were thinking about a dissertation project to make sure that you pick something that will capture your heart and mind for at least four years of work.

33:54

And so it should be something. And the advice that they gave was, it should be something that when somebody preaches your funeral years from now, they will say that this legitimately changed his life when he started thinking about X or whatever it is.

34:10

And I was looking at my own life and I was really stressed about pastoral ministry at that time.

34:17

Maybe a little bit of a burnout phase. I was stressed at home thinking about work. I was stressed at work thinking about home.

34:25

And I wanted something that would give me the joy that I just felt that I was lacking in that particular season of life.

34:33

And so I turned to the theologian of joy. And I call Edwards the theologian of joy because everything that Edwards writes has joy as a theme in it somewhere.

34:43

Even sinners in the hands of an angry God has joy at the end as he offers the hope of this.

34:49

There's this image of the doors of hope bursting open. So I started working through Edwards's major treatises and his personal writings and his minor treatises in his sermons, looking for the theme of joy or happiness and just circling it with a big red pen.

35:07

Every time I found words like glad, joy, happiness. And so what I did is I put together my dissertation on Edwards's theology of joy, which is published today.

35:19

You can get that online if you want to read it. I sort of rewrote it for the common reader, stripped out all the dissertation formalities and things like that, and just turned it into a book.

35:30

So the book is called A Theology of Joy, Eternal Happiness. Jonathan Edwards and Eternal Happiness in the

35:37

Holy Trinity is the name of it. So just search for A Theology of Joy. And then I wrote another book on his resolutions.

35:44

It's called Holy Living, the 70 Resolutions of Jonathan Edwards, and a few other things besides.

35:51

I'm working on a Jonathan Edwards study Bible right now with Thomas Nelson, which is supposed to come out next year if we can get this done.

35:58

But it'll be similar to like the Charles Spurgeon study Bible that came out maybe five, six, seven years ago.

36:05

In that all the study notes and the content are from Edwards's own firsthand writings.

36:10

And then we'll source it back to the official editions of Edwards's works so that readers can go and find the original sources and read more about Jonathan Edwards.

36:21

So we're working on that project right now. So, you know, Edwards is like, he's the dead mentor that I always wanted.

36:28

And he critiques me sometimes, but he has weaknesses too. Most of the time

36:34

I find him to be a faithful servant of the word of God, though. Amen.

36:39

And when you mentioned your book on Edwards in regard to joy, that seems to be something missing in a lot of Reformed folks' hearts and minds.

36:51

And they seem to have forgotten that the chief end of man is to glorify

36:59

God and enjoy him forever. Yes, that's right. And Edwards roots his theology of joy in the persons of the

37:09

Trinity. Edwards begins his philosophy of human happiness, starting with divine happiness.

37:16

First of all, that the Father is pleased in the Son, and the Son is pleased in the

37:21

Father to serve him. And Edwards even conceives of the Holy Spirit as something of joy, the person of joy within the

37:30

Godhead. And so for Edwards, the very purpose of human existence, God created the world so that we would rejoice in him, even as God rejoices in his own self and among the persons of the

37:44

Trinity. So it's a deeply Trinitarian thought. And Edwards just talks about it everywhere, all over the place.

37:50

We see his theology of joy seeping into his theology of everything else. Well, let's move on to your book.

37:57

As you know, there have been quite a number of books written about worship, written about music in worship, written about the regulative principle of worship.

38:11

What was it that compelled you to add another volume to that discussion where you thought perhaps something was understated that needed to be compensated for, you needed to fill a void somewhere, or you just perhaps wanted to introduce this topic in your own unique style of writing?

38:37

But what was it that compelled you to write this book? Yeah, probably the latter. So, you know, in Reformed theology and in my world of Presbyterianism, all the good books are already written on pretty much every topic.

38:52

Honestly, it's not like I'm going to discover something new and say something that hasn't been said before.

38:58

And if I do, it's probably heresy. You know, anything new in theology is to be suspect. So in some sense, though, we are responsible to rearticulate the ancient truths in our own time and place and culture.

39:11

And so for me, you know, I felt like the Apostle Paul in Acts 17, you know, when he shows up in Athens and he looks left and looks right and there's idols everywhere.

39:19

And the scripture says that he's provoked in his spirit, right? Well, I feel like that when

39:25

I look out at the general evangelical landscape. Sometimes I feel very hopeful, but sometimes

39:31

I feel pretty discouraged by the things I see. And I'm thankful that our church and probably yours and most of your listeners have good, solid services filled with scripture and prayer and preaching of the word.

39:44

But, you know, that's not always true. And there's a lot of churches out there where their worship has become entertainments.

39:53

And I define worship attainment as this ungodly amalgam where you have some aspects of holy worship, but they're mixed in with the principles and the practices and some of the fundamentals of the unbelieving world, especially from Hollywood, Nashville, Broadway, etc.

40:11

And so it was just a concern. You know, I'm just looking out broad swath at our culture and I'm seeing so much stuff that really shouldn't be passing for worship, being passed as worship, but it's really just like American Idol repackaged.

40:27

And it bothered me. And I thought, you know, I'm just going to say something about it. And so I wrote this book.

40:33

It's very simple. And the premise is that we should do what the Bible tells us to do in worship.

40:39

It's that simple. That's the regulative principle in my own words. We should do in worship what

40:44

God has commanded us to do because he's the one being worshiped. He knows what he prefers.

40:50

He is the recipient of our worship. Therefore, he has the authority to dictate how we ought to worship him.

40:56

And so I simply take that principle, which has been called the regulative principle now for 150 years or so, and I just apply it to various areas of the

41:08

Christian church. So thinking first about things like the service, the worship service on the

41:14

Lord's Day, liturgy, music, preaching, leadership, and just kind of taking that principle and teasing it out across some of the more important aspects of our church life today.

41:26

Okay. We have Talbot in Winchester, Kentucky, who says,

41:33

When we usually think about worship music becoming entertainment, we exclusively think of modern music.

41:42

It might be a rock praise band, etc. But don't you think that even classical music can become entertainment?

41:51

Yeah. Yes, it can. So some of this is going to be a matter of the heart. Actually, it's all a matter of the heart, really.

41:59

You know, you could have an entertainment -laden heart even as you're worshiping the

42:07

Lord in a very strict, informal way, especially if the preacher is thinking about how he's performing, how he's preaching, how smoothly his words are coming out.

42:19

So anybody is prone to that temptation, and it's really not necessarily all about style, though I do think there are certainly a component of style.

42:27

So whatever your worship service looks like, those people that are up front leading do have a temptation.

42:33

And we pray against it every Sunday with my ruling elders before we begin the service with the call to worship.

42:39

We pray, Please, God, don't let us be acting like showmen up here. We know our own hearts.

42:44

We know that we are tempted to pride and vanity. And I am certainly tempted in those ways, as many other people are, to think about human performance and whether or not people like me.

42:54

But the fundamental question is, what pleases the heart of God? And so we should be trying to order our worship service as much as we can around this principle that God must be the one being glorified primarily.

43:09

And if that is attractive to men secondarily, then I'm sure that there's some credit there.

43:15

But primary is what pleases God and what do the Scriptures command as far as our actual practices in the

43:23

Lord's Day worship service? Now, there are churches, just as Talbot had mentioned, who use classical music.

43:37

They may have a very professional orchestra. Sometimes I have actually been in churches that have magnificent orchestras, but that have played so loud that while we are singing hymns,

43:57

I can't even hear my own voice, let alone the voices of anybody else in the congregation. And, of course, you have even in very traditional, old -fashioned churches that would cringe in horror if you were to call them modernists, but at the same time, they love to have performances of the traditional music.

44:21

And isn't a lot of this really stripping the church of the time that should be spent for congregational singing and worship?

44:34

Right. So you're hitting on a principle that is near and dear to my heart, and I'm very thankful that you asked the question in the way that you asked it, because I do agree that the primary reason why we have music in the church is not for the theatrics and the performance.

44:52

Though, like anybody else, I love a skilled musician, but the singing of the saints is the real—that's what we're trying to do here.

45:02

And so any form of worship that overwhelms the congregation is not helpful, because primarily what we should be hearing is the voices of God's saints rising up together like a sweet incense before the

45:16

Lord, adjoining together to declare his greatness and his praise, often quoting the scriptures and our songs directly back to the

45:24

Lord, especially as we sing, for instance, like the Psalms. And I would argue that even a traditional worship form can be very unhelpful to that end if things like the sheer volume blasts over the congregation so much that it actually beats them back like a stiff wind.

45:43

You can hardly even sing into that. That is counterproductive to the end of worship, because ultimately, if we choose to use instruments, they should be to lead and to augment the voices of the people of God, but never to beat them down or to carry over them.

46:00

And so that would be one of my critiques of the sort of live American Idol -style bands that are so popular in churches today, is they really do not seek to draw out the people of God in their singing, but they do seem to swamp them and deluge them with sheer volume and power.

46:18

And I would say that that's probably a concern to me, yes. By the way, Talbot, you have just won a free copy of Worshiptainment, the

46:25

Modern Church's Golden Calf by our guest Matthew Everhart. So please provide your full name and mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

46:39

can ship that book out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

46:46

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ asks,

46:57

I am assuming that your strictness over the kind of music in worship does not extend to your personal taste beyond a worship service when you are just having times of gatherings with friends and family, going to concerts, listening to music in your car, etc.?

47:20

In other words, I guess he's asking, even if you would never in a million years want a rock group to sing in a worship service, you might have more lenient or liberal standards when it comes to music that you do use for entertainment purposes outside of a worship service.

47:44

Sure. So, for instance, having music on the background while you're doing the dishes or something like that or driving in your car.

47:51

And yes, there are definitely going to be different styles of music that I personally would listen to in the car versus what

47:57

I would think would be even remotely acceptable in terms of a corporate gathered worship service on the Lord's Day.

48:03

That being said, I'm not the best person to ask for advice on contemporary or modern music because I'm more of a podcast listener.

48:10

If I'm doing anything, whether it's working out or whether I'm running on my morning runs or whether I'm cleaning the house or something like that,

48:17

I'm personally more prone to listening to something of an intellectual discourse.

48:23

A conversation like the one we're having today, I think would be great to listen to a podcast of various kinds.

48:28

So, I couldn't necessarily recommend anything to you, but yes, I do think that there is something of a difference between what you would listen to on a good morning run versus what would be appropriate for the saints to gather around on the

48:40

Lord's Day. Sure. Yeah, and I don't know how you would respond to this, but I personally have absolutely no problem with Christian concerts.

48:51

I just don't want worship services to become Christian concerts. Yes, I totally agree.

48:57

And let me just clarify, too, when we're thinking about this, because sometimes this conversation really gets pulled into the area of style.

49:04

What are your stylistic preferences? I actually think that the conversation has more to do with substance, and this is something that came to me.

49:13

I referenced earlier about being on the mission field for six months. If you can picture an old

49:20

National Geographic documentary where you have a guy that goes to Africa and lives amongst a tribe and he's eating strange things and stuff like that, that's what

49:29

I did for six months. And I've been a missionary to various different places—El

49:35

Salvador, Ukraine, Scotland, Thailand, Cayman Islands, Mexico, multiple different places.

49:42

And one thing I've learned through missions is that it's not really about style of music as much as it is substance.

49:49

And what I mean by that is when we were in Africa, we only had one instrument. It was the drum. We didn't have electricity.

49:55

We didn't have running water. We didn't have air conditioning. We gathered together, and we sat on logs, and somebody played the drum, and we sang songs.

50:06

A lot of them were scripture. And so I learned from that and that experience—very different from my

50:14

Lutheran upbringing—that it really does come down to the substance of what we are singing to the

50:21

Lord. And so I don't want people to think that the book Worshiptainment is an argument for,

50:26

I like my style versus your style, and you should all come over and worship like we do at Gospel Fellowship PCA.

50:32

That's not really it. The purpose of the book is to say, what are we doing in worship?

50:39

And to that effect, I would like to be able to recommend that people actually pray during their worship services.

50:47

I know that sounds crazy, but a lot of services, if you really watch, there's no prayer.

50:53

There's no call to worship. There's no public confession of sin. There's no prayer of illumination before the scripture is read.

51:01

And Chris, you probably know this as well as I do. There's a lot of churches, they don't even have a formal reading of the

51:06

Word of God at all. The preacher, such as he is, comes out onto the platform.

51:12

There's no pulpits. The lights go down. Nobody can read their Bibles. And the guy just starts talking.

51:18

And I am calling people back to biblically -informed and even biblically -saturated elements of worship, even as I am less interested in the style of your musicians, let's say.

51:33

Now, to be a fly in the ointment here, years ago

51:39

I had Dr. T. David Gordon on the program. Oh, yeah. He's a good friend.

51:45

He's in Presbytery with me, so I know. Actually, he's one of my living mentors. So I mentioned earlier that Jonathan Edwards is my dead mentor.

51:53

Whenever I have a dilemma, T. David is one of the first people I text, and I talk to him very regularly.

51:59

I love him. He's a great guy. Well, I interviewed him years ago when I was broadcasting out of Long Island, New York on WNYG Radio on both books, for which he is most well -known,

52:13

Why Johnny Can't Preach. But also, Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns.

52:20

And during that interview, he – I can't remember if this was the exact wording he used, but he was basically talking about the myth of neutrality when it comes to style of music.

52:36

And he gave, as an example, can you imagine a dear loved one of yours has passed away, and you are at the funeral or the memorial service, and a person whips out a kazoo and starts playing the kazoo during the service.

53:01

You might be appalled by that. You might say, this is horrendous. You might have the person escorted out of the building.

53:09

And he was trying to give that as an example of how style of music, how melodies and rhythms and instruments, the way that they're played, can evoke different moods that have nothing to do with worship.

53:27

There are definitely sounds created by musical instruments that are very sexual.

53:34

I mean, people who are in the rock industry know that sex and drugs and rock and roll is what created those rhythms.

53:44

But I'm going to have you respond to that when we come back from our midway break, because we're running late here. And if anybody wants to join us, send us an email, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:55

Don't go away. We'll be right back. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

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Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now.

01:07:39

And last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful,

01:07:47

Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Gospel Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Valencia, Pennsylvania, I have lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people all over the planet

01:08:06

Earth in our audience find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even just within a couple of minutes from where they live.

01:08:14

And that may be you, too, if you are without a church home. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:08:21

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Matthew Everhard.

01:08:29

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. And right before the midway break,

01:08:36

Matthew, I was not quoting verbatim, but reminiscing or remembering my interview with Dr.

01:08:47

T. David Gordon on his book, Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns. And he was addressing the myth of neutrality in style when we worship.

01:08:58

And he brought up during my conversation with him the example of people playing kazoos during a funeral service.

01:09:07

And if you want to chime in there with your response to that. Yeah, well, thanks for asking me such a tough question and going to break.

01:09:15

So I would sweat about my answer, worrying about it. Well, it gave you more time to think about an answer. Yeah, I know.

01:09:22

Right. Exactly. So, you know, the first thing I'd say is if T. David Gordon and I disagree on anything, you should always believe

01:09:30

T. David Gordon rather than me, because he is a gentleman and a scholar. And he is one of those guys that knows everything about everything.

01:09:37

He's just such a brilliant man and a real blessing to our presbytery. And I do think he's actually right on this.

01:09:43

So the substance of the question has to do with does certain music invoke certain responses from the human person as we listen to various styles or instruments?

01:09:54

And of course, the answer to that is yes. Anybody who's ever seen a movie before knows that you can take a violin and make a very shrill, high pitched fever tempo with it.

01:10:06

And it causes you to fear. It's a fear inducing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or anything like that.

01:10:12

You can create emotional reactions with various music.

01:10:18

And this is why certain instruments are perfectly acceptable and helpful and others not so much.

01:10:24

For instance, the bagpipes of Scotland are going to create a different kind of emotional reaction than, say, a face melting electric guitar solo.

01:10:35

It does two different things to you. And so worship leaders and local church elders do have to weigh that out very carefully.

01:10:43

How and what are we trying to evoke as people come into the sanctuary to worship the

01:10:50

Lord God? But it would probably be too hard for me and above my pay grade to answer which instruments or which styles are appropriate and which wouldn't be.

01:11:01

Because to some extent that does vary based on cultures. And reverence and faith.

01:11:08

Sure, yes. Scotland and Africa are going to have two different responses and even understandings to the instruments that they have.

01:11:16

So again, my point is not so much that every church listening needs to do what

01:11:22

Gospel Fellowship PCA does, but rather that elders and pastors would re -evaluate what they do in their worship services with the highest principle being, does this bring glory to God in as much as it is commanded in Scripture?

01:11:38

Or are we trying to entertain the goats and to draw a crowd here? Because that's going to be two different purposes.

01:11:45

Yes. And I think that people of our theological persuasion have to be very careful when we don't elevate our own preferences above the

01:11:58

Word of God and begin to sinfully look down upon brethren who disagree over issues like this.

01:12:07

I have been in very conservative, traditional, Reformed churches that have a very reverent form of worship.

01:12:19

And I've seen people that I know refuse to sing a

01:12:26

Getty's song when the church is singing the song. Even if the average person could not distinguish between a

01:12:34

Getty's song and a 19th century hymn, the person knows, oh, this is a modern song.

01:12:41

I'm not going to sing it. When I worked for WMCA Radio, which is a

01:12:49

Salem media affiliate in New York City, I had clients that were independent fundamentalist

01:12:57

Baptist churches. And they all pooled their resources to sponsor a program called the

01:13:07

Fundamental Baptist Forum. And I used to go to some of their meetings that they would have once a month.

01:13:13

And it was somewhat comical because they would get into heated arguments. Even the fundamentalist independent

01:13:20

Baptists were getting into arguments over the different styles of worship that they had, even though they were all very conservative and reserved.

01:13:30

You had some that sounded too much like Southern gospel to them. That music sounds like it belongs in a honky tonk.

01:13:38

I don't want that music on our show. You would have all kinds of crazy differences.

01:13:44

So we have to be very careful when we go too far and have a false sense of self -righteousness because we are the ones that believe in and practice pure music in the church and so on.

01:14:00

You know, that's such a brilliant point, Chris, and I'm glad that you mentioned that. One thing that practically could be done for churches or pastors that are out there listening to this, or even just lay people thinking about it, is instead of asking the question, what song is popular now and should we incorporate this into our worship?

01:14:21

Rather, how do the elders of the church evaluate which songs are sung?

01:14:27

And if that latter process is not even part of the consideration, then I do think that would be an evidence of a problem.

01:14:35

So many evangelical churches today, and even some that would consider themselves Reformed, they select their music by way of trendiness or what's popular or what's popular on the

01:14:45

Christian radio channel or something like that. And they say, oh, this is the new song. Let's do this. Well, I hope that they have some process by which their elders evaluate which songs are going to be sung and that that evaluation process is more or less theological, as the elders are considering whether or not the lyrics actually comport to Scripture and do, in fact, glorify the living

01:15:11

God, rather than just having kind of a snappy beat and a tune that's a can't -miss, singable, memorizable tune, you know what

01:15:18

I'm saying? Yep. And I agree with you completely. And we have

01:15:24

Seth in Hummlestown, Pennsylvania. I understand and agree with your position on keeping worship attainment out of the

01:15:34

Sunday worship service setting. But how do you feel—and we already know that Seth is not

01:15:40

Reformed, because he said, how do you feel, not what do you think. Just kidding,

01:15:47

Seth. Hilarious. How do you feel about the loud music? Well, we actually brought that up in the beginning.

01:15:54

Lights and laser stuff in other settings, for example, youth retreats, events strictly outside a worship service setting.

01:16:03

Do you believe that laser lights should be going on at a youth retreat? Well, maybe if they're playing laser tag, there'd be nothing wrong with that, but what do you think?

01:16:12

Well, I appreciate the question, and we dealt with volume just a minute ago.

01:16:18

And again, my position, in short, is that volume should never detract from the singing of the saints.

01:16:24

So that's a simple answer to that question. As for lasers and fog machines and lights, my general answer to that is no.

01:16:31

I don't think that they contribute anything that's positive. But again, I am thinking primarily of the

01:16:36

Lord's Day worship services. And I do think that there is a distinction between gathered

01:16:41

Lord's Day worship versus things that could be done in other contexts. And so if we're talking about a youth retreat or something like that,

01:16:49

I would probably be more open to other kinds of accoutrements as it relates to worship.

01:16:55

But still, I have something of a skepticism in me that I would want to know why and to what end and how does this contribute in any positive way?

01:17:05

Because I think that there are certain things that worship should have in them positively and far too often were detracted by the dynamic elements of worship, such as the lights and the lasers.

01:17:19

In my view, worship should and can be simple in that a good litmus test is if the power went out, could you still do what you were going to do?

01:17:31

Like, honestly. Yeah, I know. But it is funny when you think about it. Right. Can you pray? Can you sing?

01:17:37

Can you preach? Because if the whole contrivance is so complicated and over dependent on screens and technology and things like that.

01:17:47

Well, you know, I think there's something to be said about the beauty of simplicity.

01:17:54

And Puritan worship is beautiful because it can be replicated anywhere.

01:17:59

You don't need really anything but, I suppose, a Bible. And perhaps, you know, if I could beg some hymnals or psalters to sing with.

01:18:09

But you don't need all of the entrapments of the screens, which are proliferous and screens ubiquitously.

01:18:16

Everything's got to be on PowerPoint. And I don't know, Chris, I feel like the younger folks actually kind of want to unplug a little bit from some of those things and go back to a beauty and reverent simplicity.

01:18:28

Even in youth retreats, there's something to be said of the power of a man stepping forward with a

01:18:34

Bible in his hand and expositing the Word of God and trusting that the Spirit of God is going to do what the

01:18:40

Spirit does without having to control manipulatively the emotional ethos of the event.

01:18:47

I think there's something beautiful about that. Yes, and I'm assuming you would agree that we have to be careful, even at a youth retreat, if precious sacred words are being sung about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and salvation by grace alone through faith alone, and we could go on and on, that are being trivialized by what's going on during the singing of these songs.

01:19:18

I'll give you a couple of examples. I was asked to give my testimony.

01:19:25

I'm a former drunkard who came to Christ and repented of my excessive and scandalous level of drunkenness, and then also, tragically, 18 years later, backslid back into that as a

01:19:43

Christian, and thankfully was delivered from that. I have to quickly plug

01:19:50

Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina, where I admitted myself and have been sober over a decade now, thanks to that fine ministry, which was founded in the early—well, actually, post -World

01:20:08

War II, it was founded by a Presbyterian pastor. Praise God. But HebronColony .org,

01:20:15

for those of you who want to look that up, it's absolutely free of charge as well, which is very rare for an addiction recovery ministry, even one that's

01:20:24

Christian. Many, if not most, charge an arm and a leg for this kind of facility and treatment.

01:20:37

When I was asked to give my testimony for this denominational gathering—I'm not going to mention the denomination—but they had somebody provide the music on piano, who was actually somebody in their denomination that typically ran youth retreats.

01:21:03

And in fact, the building that this was being held in was a center for retreats that this denomination had.

01:21:13

And I almost vomited—I'm exaggerating there—but

01:21:19

I started to get queasy and angry when this gentleman who was playing the piano had us all sing

01:21:26

Amazing Grace to the theme of Gilligan's Island. I wouldn't do it.

01:21:34

I just stood there and waited until it was over. And I also remember years before that, when

01:21:43

I was working for WMCA, we sponsored a concert that featured many very well -known

01:21:51

Christian recording artists, and it was Handel's Young Messiah.

01:21:58

And Carmen, who I believe has gone home to be with the Lord—he passed away,

01:22:03

I believe—Carmen was singing a

01:22:09

Christian song about the salvation that comes through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

01:22:19

He was singing it like Elvis Presley and gyrating his hips and doing everything that Elvis did to the screams of moronic women in the audience who were acting just like they were at an

01:22:37

Elvis concert, screaming with lust or whatever. I mean, that kind of thing,

01:22:44

I would much rather see a Christian rock performance than something that tried to make use of traditional music but had the attachments of things that trivialized the truth of the

01:23:02

Bible. Am I making sense here? Totally, totally making sense. And I think this would be a

01:23:09

T. David Gordian point that there's a sense in which the medium is the message.

01:23:15

Because you're conveying in any kind of communication that you're doing, any form of communication, there's two things that are being said.

01:23:23

There's the explicit and there's the implicit. And the explicit is the actual content. What are you communicating with your words?

01:23:29

What do nouns, verbs, and adjectives mean? What is the denotation of the form of words you're trying to convey?

01:23:38

But then there's also the sort of connotation that comes with it, too. And that's what is implied.

01:23:44

That is what is picked up on the radars of our other senses. And sometimes those connotations end up being silly or goofy or superficial or minimalist in ways that actually detract from what you're saying.

01:23:58

And so, unfortunately, in your example, singing Amazing Grace to Gilligan's Island, it may be clever and even cute, but it's certainly not profound or sublime.

01:24:08

And to that extent, if you're trying to convey profound and sublime thoughts, then you've chosen very poorly as far as the medium goes in order to get that point through.

01:24:18

But we should also be careful, too, because, let's say you're in a children's teaching time and Sunday school class.

01:24:27

I think it's perfectly acceptable to teach our sweet little ones some very simple ditties that convey basic Bible truths, your

01:24:36

Jesus loves me, this I know type songs. I think that's perfectly appropriate because, again, the medium and the message need to match.

01:24:44

And in that case, teaching children is a very different thing indeed. Yes. And perhaps we'll put it in the right perspective.

01:24:55

If somebody who's still sticking to their guns, there's nothing wrong with singing Amazing Grace to Gilligan's Island.

01:25:02

There's nothing wrong with bringing a bit of cheer while we are worshiping and that kind of thing.

01:25:08

Well, try to imagine for a moment your mother died.

01:25:16

And folks at the funeral said that we'd like to sing this song in tribute to your mom.

01:25:22

And they sing it to the theme of Gilligan's Island. Bill's mother died. She was hit by a car. And everybody's sad.

01:25:28

You know, I mean, you might be absolutely appalled by that. Probably enraged, disgusted.

01:25:36

So sometimes you have to put it in a personal perspective to really get the gist of how an error is being committed.

01:25:47

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I do agree with that. And unfortunately, that example is all too real.

01:25:52

I have seen some very kind of like, oh, you got to be kidding me moments when I've been at funerals and things like that.

01:25:59

I think largely, we need to be aware of where we are, the context, the scene, who's present, who's observing.

01:26:07

But all the more so when we're in a context in which ostensibly the point is to glorify and praise the living

01:26:15

God who is sovereign over all things and whose very presence invokes dread, fear, awe, and wonder amongst

01:26:22

His saints. And so we should be very careful that in our case, that the medium and the message, they match very suitably.

01:26:28

Yes. And speaking of funerals, as most of us

01:26:34

Americans know, one of our former presidents, Jimmy Carter, died not long ago, and he actually requested years before dying that Imagine by John Lennon be sung at his funeral.

01:26:49

What kind of Christian would have requested an anthem to agnosticism be sung at your funeral?

01:27:01

Yeah, that's bad. That's really, really bad. And I don't know what went into the motivation of that particular choice.

01:27:09

But my goodness, if there's a secular anthem that decries meaninglessness of kind of a wandering existentialism, but certainly anti -Christian, it would be that particular song.

01:27:23

I don't even know why people like that song. I don't think it's a very good song in general. The melody is haunting.

01:27:29

It's kind of a beautiful melody. I guess. I guess. You know, I think I'm so turned off by the purpose and meaning of that song that I don't even like the melody.

01:27:37

But I'm a stodgy Presbyterian, Chris. What do you want from me? That's who I am.

01:27:43

And Seth has a follow -up question. I was able to listen to Worshiptainment on Audible and enjoyed it thoroughly.

01:27:51

Do you have any plans to release your other books in an Audible format? Yeah, a couple of them are.

01:27:59

The Theology of Joy book is in Audible, so you can get that. And then I have another book called

01:28:04

Souls, How Jesus Saved Sinners, which is just a real basic treatment of the gospel. I use it in my evangelism class at the seminary.

01:28:12

That is also on Audible as well, so you can get those too. Great. Oh, by the way,

01:28:19

Seth, we do have copies. Thanks to the generosity of my guest,

01:28:25

Matthew Everhart, we have copies that we are giving away of his book. But since you have the

01:28:30

Audible, let me know if you would like to give the copy that you have won because you've sent in a question.

01:28:37

The hardback copy or the softcover copy, but it's a paper, physical form.

01:28:47

Let me know if you want to still receive that or if you want us to give it to another listener because we only have a limited number.

01:28:55

And I just figured I'd ask since you have the Audible copy. We have Joey in New Rochelle, New York.

01:29:04

And Joey says, really great discussion. Thanks. I think it would be helpful to discuss why worship and the regulative principle extend beyond just the principles of music and music styles chosen in worship.

01:29:20

Well, you have addressed that. We even addressed laser lights, but do you have anything to add to that?

01:29:27

Sure. Well, let's direct the conversation to preaching a little bit because I think that's even more important even than music.

01:29:36

And when it comes to preaching, one of the things that I'm a strong advocate of is the form of preaching called expository preaching, which most of our listeners will already be familiar with.

01:29:46

But expository preaching operates under the principle that the preacher himself doesn't have much clever or interesting to say.

01:29:55

Now, he may be a very winsome and intelligent and otherwise charming person, but as it relates to pulpit

01:30:02

Bible proclamation, expository preaching assumes that the word of God is the primary content that is to be communicated in the preaching form itself.

01:30:15

So I strongly advocate for this. And it's not that I don't think that topical sermons can be okay.

01:30:23

And certainly there are circumstantial sermons and there might be particular moments where a particular topic needs to be addressed.

01:30:31

But by and large, I think that expository preaching conveys the heart of the regulative principle, because if anything, the regulative principle is supposed to be rigorously biblical, constantly asking questions of what does the

01:30:46

Bible teach about God's nature, our nature, and our need to respond to the offer of Christ in the gospel.

01:30:54

So I would very strongly advocate that preachers would be through books of the

01:31:01

Bible type preachers. And the real benefit of that, as you probably already know, Chris, is that it avoids pet topics and every preacher has his favorite pet topics.

01:31:11

It definitely forces you to confront the hard texts of Scripture, which very often are actually the most interesting texts, and it doesn't allow the preacher or the congregation to escape some of the more uncomfortable teachings of the

01:31:25

Bible. And certainly the Bible can be uncomfortable from time to time, especially as it confronts us in our sin.

01:31:31

So for me, regulative principle preaching is primarily an expository preaching of the

01:31:38

Word of God with some latitude, again, for the sake of certain circumstances and an occasional topical piece, but mostly rigorously working through the text itself.

01:31:52

Amen. And that really is a conduit and a further assurance that you are going to address the whole counsel of God.

01:32:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. You know, just by way of example, just kind of making this up on the spot here, but let's say that you wanted to preach through Romans, which

01:32:18

I'm preaching on right now. It would be very tempting for certain modern preachers to skip sections in chapter one that address sexuality because the preacher doesn't want to incur the disagreement of his congregation or perhaps even the wrath of some of his more outspoken congregants.

01:32:39

And so he skips that passage to hurry up to chapter five or chapter eight, which are more delightful.

01:32:46

But, you know, the whole of the book of Romans is a literary unit. It's a construct with a long logical thread running through the whole thing.

01:32:55

And if you simply jump to chapter eight, because it's got some really great, exciting things to say, and people typically like to hear that nothing can separate them from the love of God, that's wonderful and certainly true.

01:33:07

But it all builds from the relentless logic that begins in chapter one and carries through chapter two and three and so forth all the way through the book.

01:33:16

And we're doing a disservice to the book of Romans as a literary text if we're merely picking and choosing the lines, sometimes even just a few lines at a time that we really kind of like.

01:33:28

So I think it's the fairest way, it's the most honest way to preach. And congregations that don't have expository preaching, unfortunately,

01:33:37

I think they have an unfortunate dearth of biblical knowledge and competencies based on those kinds of preferential text choosings of their more whimsical pastors.

01:33:55

Well, we—oh, by the way, Joey, give us your full mailing address in New Rochelle, New York, because you have also won a free copy of Worshiptainment by Matthew Everhard, and that will be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

01:34:14

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama. He earlier clarified the correct spelling and pronunciation of Greensburg, Pennsylvania, and he explained that he's originally from Pennsylvania.

01:34:30

That's why he knew that. That's great. Okay, Ted asks, your guest expressed some exasperation for churches that have no call to worship.

01:34:44

Can you briefly explain what a call to worship is? Why can't we simply just worship?

01:34:51

And why this is so important to Presbyterians over and against other Protestant traditions?

01:34:57

He has a follow -up question, but let's start with that. Sure. Well, a call to worship is the idea that God himself is really the one who calls us into his presence.

01:35:10

And so whenever we come to worship God, there's a sense in which we really don't have the privilege and prerogative to simply waltz into his presence without any due preparation of the hearts or readiness of the person and the church to come before the

01:35:29

Lord. It's a position of reverence, and it's a default mode to the idea that God himself beckons us to come, and that itself is an act of grace.

01:35:39

So rather than charging in to his presence, we recognize with a call to worship that it's the

01:35:45

Lord as a very act of his own grace who invites us to come to worship him.

01:35:51

In the same way that I'm also an advocate for a good benediction at the end of the service, those two function like the two ends of a book, the two covers of a book, the call and the benediction.

01:36:03

The benediction, likewise, we should not just simply say, dismissed, church is over. And I've heard that.

01:36:09

I've heard it a lot, actually. You know, the end of the sermon, you sing the last song and somebody comes up and says,

01:36:14

OK, that's it for today. Everybody's dismissed. We'll see you Wednesday or whatever. It's like, no, no, actually a benediction is appropriate where the

01:36:21

Trinitarian name of God is joyfully placed upon the people of God as they look to the

01:36:27

Lord for his benefits and his strength. So the call invites us wondrously to come into his presence as children come before a father, and the benediction sends us out with the blessing of his name as we go forth to proclaim his gospel in all of the earth.

01:36:44

And so kind of those modern replacements, the chatty kind of greeting and the dismissive kind of abrupt close,

01:36:55

I don't think are appropriate to worship. I think it's better to use biblical forms of call and benediction to begin and end our services.

01:37:03

Yeah. And wouldn't you say, as a believer in the regulative principle, you're separating things that may be said in the beginning of a service that are not worship.

01:37:14

When you're talking about a Sister Louise's garage sale and things like that, or whatever you're announcing in the beginning, that's not worship.

01:37:25

And when you're presenting or declaring a call to worship, you're now saying we are now entering into worship.

01:37:33

Yeah. And I guess I couldn't draw a hard and fast line and say there's no place for announcements in worship, because Paul does sometimes make what we might call announcements as he's announcing what he thinks is going to be his travel plans to this city or that.

01:37:49

However, in our church service, we do the announcements before the call to worship for that very reason.

01:37:55

So I step onto the platform and I give a few announcements about new

01:38:00

Bible studies that are coming up, or I might say something about the Lord's Supper next week, or I might announce a particular prayer concern.

01:38:09

Then we have a call to worship. And once we're in the time of worship, it's all about the

01:38:15

Lord and his word until the last benediction. And then we have plenty of time to chat and greet each other and hug necks and exchange pleasantries after that.

01:38:25

Okay, here's Ted's follow -up question. Why doesn't your guest respond to comments and questions on his

01:38:34

YouTube videos? He produces some very good videos, but it's frustrating if you have a question, as I have had at least a half a dozen instances to leave something in the comment section only to have it ignored for months or, in some cases, years.

01:38:52

Well, I think that's an unimportant question. Let's move on to our next listener. I was actually joking to give

01:39:02

Ted a little bit more of what he was just complaining about. No, that's fine. That's fine. Ted, what's up, buddy?

01:39:07

Hey, listen, Ted. Here's the deal. I am the only pastor right now at Gospel Fellowship, and we're trying to hire an assistant or an associate pastor to come work with me.

01:39:18

So please bear with me right now. I'm overburdened with work. I've got my seminary responsibilities and some editing and writing.

01:39:26

I'm working all the time, brother, and I do neglect the comment section of my videos. So please forgive me.

01:39:32

But it's not that I don't love all those people out there, but, you know, one can only do so much.

01:39:37

By the way, Ted, thanks to the generosity of Seth in Hummelstown, Pennsylvania, who said, give my book to somebody else.

01:39:49

You are now getting a free copy of the book, Worshiptainment.

01:39:55

So please give us your full name, mailing address, so that cvbbs .com

01:40:02

can ship that out to you. And we're going to our final break right now. So if you want to ask a question before we run out of time,

01:40:09

I suggest you submit it quickly. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back.

01:40:31

I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbergh Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

01:40:42

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01:40:53

At Lindbergh Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

01:40:59

Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

01:41:10

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

01:41:27

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

01:41:35

God's image. If you live near Lindbergh, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

01:41:40

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit LindberghBaptist .org.

01:41:47

That's L -Y -N -BrookBaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbergh Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

01:42:00

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

01:42:06

Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

01:42:27

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

01:42:35

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

01:42:45

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

01:42:53

Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

01:43:01

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

01:43:07

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

01:43:13

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger Catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:43:18

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

01:43:28

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the

01:43:36

Reformers, Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

01:43:41

Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

01:43:49

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

01:43:54

Or call 678 -954 -7831, that's 678 -954 -7831.

01:44:03

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.

01:44:24

This is Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:44:30

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:44:35

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:44:52

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:44:58

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:45:11

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:45:21

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:45:29

This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:45:35

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:45:53

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:45:58

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:46:05

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:46:12

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:46:29

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:46:37

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:46:45

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:46:52

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:47:01

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:47:28

This is

01:47:35

Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

01:47:44

SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.

01:47:55

We can be reached at securecommgroup .com.

01:48:00

That's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor,

01:48:09

Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

01:48:18

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

01:48:24

In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

01:48:30

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

01:48:37

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

01:48:44

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

01:48:56

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

01:49:04

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

01:49:13

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

01:49:22

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:49:50

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

01:49:57

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother

01:50:03

Chris Arnzen in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.

01:50:09

I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

01:50:18

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,

01:50:29

I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the

01:50:36

Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.

01:50:42

Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code

01:50:58

IRON, I -R -O -N, an added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:51:10

That's cvbbs .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.

01:51:19

Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

01:51:28

And don't forget, cvbbs .com is now shipping worldwide.

01:51:34

Also, please never forget that this program is sponsored in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

01:51:40

Associates. If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

01:51:46

United States, call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit the website of Buttafuoco &

01:51:53

Associates at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Please make sure you tell them that you heard about their law firm and Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

01:52:04

Also, I want to quickly remind all men in ministry leadership, you are invited to my next two free pastor's luncheons.

01:52:13

The first, God willing, will be held on Thursday, May 1st, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

01:52:18

We are still waiting for confirmation on a venue. We had to change our normal venue because of a schedule conflict that we did not know of earlier.

01:52:29

But our guest speaker is the Reformed Christian apologist and Young Earth astrophysicist,

01:52:38

Dr. Jason Lyle. He will be speaking at that luncheon. And then on Thursday, September 18th, also 11 a .m.

01:52:46

to 2 p .m., this will be held at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is our typical location.

01:52:54

We have Dr. James R. White speaking again at that event. So, if you'd like to register, it's free of charge.

01:53:01

You send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line and specify one or both of those dates, whichever one you plan to attend.

01:53:12

And keep in mind, not only is everything free, but everybody who attends gets probably a dozen or more free brand new books personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:53:26

United States and the United Kingdom. So, chrisarnzen at gmail .com to register. Well, I'd like you,

01:53:32

Pastor Everhart, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:53:40

Well, thank you so much again for having me on the conversation. I think it's a really important one because there's nothing that we do that is more important than our worship.

01:53:50

And, of course, while it's true that worship can be had by us as believers anywhere we go, at any time,

01:53:59

Psalm 63, David says, he meditates on the Lord in the watches of the night, presumably by himself on his own bed.

01:54:05

We worship as we work, as we serve, as Adam was created in the garden to serve and to keep the garden.

01:54:11

Of course, he failed there. But one of our most important privileges is to worship together as a church on the

01:54:19

Lord's Day. I am one of those rare Christians that still believes that the commandment holds that we are to have one day in seven that's sanctified to the

01:54:28

Lord and that it's not a personal preference for us to come together to worship him, but rather that it's a command and expectation that we, the people of God, gather together on his day, the

01:54:39

Lord's Day, to serve him. And I think the stress of the book Worshiptainment is not so much to accuse or to mock or to cajole anybody or certainly not to try to get people to be like us at Gospel Fellowship PCA, but rather that every church, every church,

01:54:55

Reformed or not, Evangelical, broadly or narrowly, that they would look at what they do in their worship services and ask themselves, why are we doing what we do?

01:55:05

And that they would rigorously try to conform their worship services to those things that are given in the word of God, which clearly the

01:55:14

Lord wants us to do. And those things are rather simple. We preach the word. We read the word.

01:55:20

We pray the word. We exhibit the word in the form of the sacraments or the ordinances.

01:55:25

And besides that, we don't need to be particularly creative or contemporary or hip or stylish.

01:55:33

We just need to be faithful. And so my book is just a call to Bible -believing faithfulness as we gather to worship the

01:55:40

Lord. Well, my opinion of Pastor Matthew Everhart just skyrocketed because even though you folks can't see this, since this is audio only, we have cameras on on our

01:55:52

Microsoft Teams link. And I just noticed that this Presbyterian pastor is wearing a

01:55:58

T -shirt giving honor to the great Baptist theologian and preacher

01:56:04

Charles Haddon Spurgeon. That's right. That's right. We love ourselves some

01:56:10

Baptists, too. That mutual admiration in society is a two -way street. Baptists love the

01:56:16

Presbys, and the Presbys love the Baptists. We're all on the same team. We argue a little bit from time to time, but we love the same

01:56:22

Lord, and we consider you close cousins in the faith, brother. And my dear friend, whose voice you all hear every day advertising

01:56:33

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island.

01:56:40

I have been in his home, and when he has guests over for dinner—he might even do this when he doesn't have guests.

01:56:46

But before the meal is served, he has a devotional that includes an excerpt from one of Charles Haddon Spurgeon's sermons or writings.

01:56:58

So that always warms the cockles of my heart. Praise God for that.

01:57:04

That's great. But to repeat the website of Gospel Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Valencia, Pennsylvania, gospelfellowshippca .org,

01:57:17

gospelfellowshippca .org. And if our listeners want to watch and hear you on YouTube, do they just type in your name, or how does that work?

01:57:26

Yeah, yeah, it's technically like youtube .com slash Matthew Everhard. But honestly, if you just put in my name,

01:57:33

Matthew Everhard, there's over a thousand videos that I have on all things biblical and theological, and you'll definitely be able to find my stuff there.

01:57:41

No question about it. By the way, I want to give a shout out to two listeners who urged me to interview

01:57:46

Matthew today. One is Seth from Hummelstown, whose question we read earlier, and also

01:57:52

Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who was really aggressive and enthusiastic about me inviting

01:58:00

Matthew. And I'm so glad I listened to them. Thank you so much to these wonderful listeners who are so faithful and loyal to this program.

01:58:09

And I want to once again, one more time, invite every man in ministry leadership to the

01:58:16

I Am Sherpa and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheons, the first being on Thursday, May 1st, God willing.

01:58:22

We are still looking for a location. We're waiting for a confirmation on a location here in South Central Pennsylvania, and we'll keep you updated on that.

01:58:30

That is where Dr. Jason Lyle is speaking, 11 a .m. to 3 p .m.

01:58:36

or 2 p .m., actually, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. And then we have on Thursday, September 18th,

01:58:42

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is speaking at the next Pastors Luncheon.

01:58:47

I want to thank all of you who listened today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

01:58:59

Savior than you are a sinner. Thank you so much for listening to I Am Sherpa and Zion Radio, and I look forward to hearing your questions for our next guest on our next episode.