Braden Patterson: Nineteen year Mormon to Reformed Baptist His Story From LDS to Christianity

Dead Men Walking

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Exploring Theology, Doctrine, and all of the Fascinating Subjects in Between, Broadcasting from an

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Undisclosed Location, Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

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Thanks for listening, thanks for sharing with a friend, thanks for commenting and resharing on social media and visiting us at dmwpodcast .com

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where you can find out a little bit more about the show. Click on through the merch page and even support the show as well.

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Get one of these nifty shirts that I'm wearing here, one of our famous, I say famous, infamous

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Wynum, Dynum, Romans, Nynum mugs or t -shirts, little conversation starter for you. But we do appreciate you're here, we've been getting a lot of response in the last few weeks on the episodes from the conference down in Tullahoma.

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We then had Keith Foskey on, we've had Kobe Muncy on who does Bible reviews and we're kind of following in this pattern because today

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I have someone else on that I met down there. Now I had heard of him and I had heard some of his podcast before but got to put the face to the name, which was pretty cool, or the voice

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I should say, the face to the voice and the name, and he's ex -LDS, which is very interesting and that's what we're going to be talking about today.

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He's now the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. He's the husband of Emily, father of two with one on the way, exciting, and you can find his videos on YouTube at Reformed Ex -Mormon.

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It is Pastor Brayden Patterson. How are you, Brayden? Oh, brother, it's a blessing to be here today, doing far better than I deserve, that's for sure.

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Now, this isn't your first introduction to Dead Men. I know we interviewed you down at the Shadows to Substance Conference, and I think you sat in with our

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James White bonus after debate, kind of post -interview, so your voice has been on here a few times, but I wanted to sit down with you in long format, not just five or ten minutes, but kind of talk about your journey from Mormonism into Reformed theology and Christianity.

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Before we do that, give us a little extended. So you're in Hagerman, you pastor there. How long have you been pastoring? You got one on the way.

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Give us a little personal bio, what you're all about. Yeah, so I was ordained into pastoral ministry at Eastside Baptist Church in Twin Falls.

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Oh, I would say it's probably now been over three years ago since that took place. I don't know the exact date or timing on that, but I was called here to Valley Baptist Church a little over two years ago, which has been truly a blessing, just being here and participating in preaching

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Christ crucified and worshiping God on a very daily and weekly basis with the congregation that's out here, the

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Bride of Christ that's out here. So that's that's been truly remarkable and edifying to myself, that's for sure.

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Cool. So what we wanted to talk about, let's just dive right into it, because we're going to keep this to between 30 and 40 minutes, but I know there's a lot we can cover here.

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I'm very interested in that journey. You know, I've had guys on that were Oneness Pentecostals, then

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Reformed Presbyterian, and we had a two hour episode really of talking about that journey.

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We've talked to like Doreen Virtue, who is heavily into new age. Stephen Bancars has been on the show, you know, making a million dollars a month selling new age books.

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And now he's a believer. And I always love talking about that journey because one, not only is it a testimony to the goodness of God, but it also allows us to kind of get outside of our bubble for those who is either always been in the

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Christian church or never been exposed to anything else. Even if we hadn't been, you know, even if we started believing in teens or young adult or adulthood,

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I've found in the Western Christian church, unfortunately, we really like to get stuck in our little bubble of our little tradition of our church or denomination.

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And once saved, we really don't venture that far out beyond that. And what

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I found is a lot of believers who even been in the church for maybe decades are very unqualified to talk to someone outside of the faith that might have differing views, whether it be

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Mormon or Jehovah Witness or Seventh Day Advent, or even within denominations, they get a little thrown if you start talking about creed overs, pedo baptism and things like that.

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Now, some of those things are secondary issues. Obviously, when we're talking about Mormonism or Jehovah Witness or things like that, those are primary

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Orthodox issues. So those are issues that we do need to know a little bit about. And I'm more from like the

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Greg Bonson School of Thought, like, man, read up on it, know it, know who you're talking to.

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You know, I'm reading books on on different religions. When I was in my 20s and the Lord saved me, I mean, I went through Hinduism and Buddhism and in Islam and all those things.

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And one, you know, about those I was seeking for truth and found that Christ is the truth.

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And thank God that he opened up my eyes and my heart to that. So this is a very interesting topic to me.

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And I will have to say, probably out of all of them, this is the one I know the least amount about, which

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I would feel more comfortable if a Jehovah Witness came to my door than if I actually

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I was last year, had some Mormon missionaries on our nonprofit a board I sit on. I had four

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Christian brothers. We were digging a 22 foot well and they said, well, let's come out and I'll send four of four of our missionaries out there.

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And we had four of our believers out there. And it took about an hour of digging before we started getting into it. They would say little things and we would say little things.

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So it was kind of this weird for Mormons and for reformed guys. And we're all digging a well for the good of the nonprofit that provides water to, you know, to these people.

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But it was very interesting. And I realized last year I went, hmm, I need to brush up on this a little bit more.

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And to wow, there is just I have met some of the most I want to say are you faithful?

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I mean, it in the way of really clinging to what they believe. I don't know if I've met a more faithful group of cling to what they believe and understand than Mormons.

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Yeah. So let's start at the beginning, though. I've already talked way too much. I want to get you on some audio here.

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So well, when when how did you did you grow up Mormon? How long did you hold to that? Like, give us the background on that.

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Yeah. And even even just before jumping in there, I just have to say, brother, it was such a blessing to be able to hang out with you in person. And even in the in the disagreements on some of the secondary items that we had, man,

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I celebrate and rejoice in the Lord that we hold to the essentials and are saved by the same blood of Jesus Christ. Right.

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And so and that's that that's where I think like when we talk about the differences between Jehovah Witnesses, LDS, Buddhism and all these kind of things that there's a there's almost like in our culture today, there's almost like an accepting

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PC. Everybody's right. We can't we can't have a subjective truth to hold somebody to.

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And so that that's something that that I I know that I've been combating very, very much regularly with, especially

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LDS in my area, because it's interesting to hear that you don't run into LDS as often.

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And that's somebody that you would be a little bit more uncomfortable with than what a Jehovah Witness would be, because over on my side of the of the states, there's nothing but LDS.

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It seems like right now where I live out that 50 percent are going to be LDS, 50 percent are going to not be LDS. Right.

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And so that that's mind blowing. Right. A culture shock for me in that sense. But yeah,

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I'll just jump in and just talk about a little bit about my history and my story and whatnot. So I was raised

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LDS for 19 years. I lived a very, very typical LDS life where, you know,

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I always talk about it as so when we talk about like the Gerber baby for for the baby food, everybody immediately knows the

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Gerber baby. Right. Well, when you think of a Mormon missionary or a Mormon LDS member, I'm the

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Gerber baby in that way. I I'm a face that comes to mind in that sense. Just very, very typical, true blooded

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Mormon. Technically, I'm related to Brigham Young, which I don't think is that that cool the thing to boast of because he had a lot of wives, but very, very tied to the

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LDS in that sense. So I was raised LDS in a very loving family. I have four brothers, one younger, three older, baptized at age eight.

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Once I hit that age of accountability as the LDS teach about it, I received the Aaronic priesthood.

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And then in the process of living a what they would call a worthy temple

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LDS life, a worthy life, I was getting ready to go on my

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LDS mission, receive my endowment, receive the Melchizedek priesthood, all those things that you have to do prior to going on an

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LDS mission. I was in I was in a time right when the LDS prophet at the time had changed the age requirement from being 19 to 18.

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And so I was still set in my mind that I'm going to go when I'm 19, which I still praise God very, very much for doing so.

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And so at the age of 19, I had met this really, really lovely little lady who's now my wife.

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I'll just give the spoiler alert right now, but met this really nice, lovely lady named Emily and really, really enjoyed spending time with her, dated her for about a month.

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And it was just really pressured by my family to evangelize to her, to tell her about the

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LDS church, which I had graduated from seminary at the time. My three brothers that had gone on missions all said that I was going to do a far, far better job on my mission than that, even though what they did and they did as far as LDS minds go, they did.

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They had a lot of baptism, very, very faithful to that religion, just very high up in the

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LDS mission in that sense. Yeah. And so they told me I was going to do better. Yeah. Very, very quickly. Was Emily, was she a

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Christian, a nonbeliever? What was she when you met her? She was a professing

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Catholic at the time, but didn't know anything about anything about a Catholic whatsoever.

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Just just knew enough to to be able to listen to the conversations I was having and be able to discern some stuff with biblical knowledge in that sense.

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So, so after that, yeah, within LDS very quickly, too, is that how kind of the how the success of a mission is measured by baptism or conversions?

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Could you kind of there's a they don't they don't like to talk about that. But inside membership itself, that's usually a pretty typical thing that they like to rejoice in.

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And that comes from the book of Doctrine and Covenants. I think it's Doctrine and Covenants chapter eight. It's been a couple of years since I read it. But Doctrine and Covenants, I think it's chapter eight.

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It says, if your joy be great with one soul that you bring to heaven, how much more will your joy be if you bring many souls?

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Sure. And so the idea is, is that by you living a faithful mission life and you have these these great advancements in the

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LDS mission field, that that your joy will be magnified in the next life. And so they my brothers really thought

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I was going to do better. I graduated with all four years from their the LDS high school seminary, which is not even comparable to Christian seminaries by any means.

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So I hope no one in the audience would think that I graduated from a Christian seminary when I say I graduated from an

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LDS seminary. But the point of it is, is that I was really, really inaugurated into LDS theology.

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And as I was getting ready to go on that mission, parents were very adamant about me telling this girl,

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Emily, about the LDS faith, which in my mind, I thought to myself, if anybody's going to tell her about the

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LDS faith, I'm the guy to do it. I know the most about it. I can best share this with people.

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And I'm going to baptize her by the end of the week and her family by the end of the month. It's really what I was thinking going into those conversations.

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And so a month goes by in the dating process, give her a Book of Mormon one night. The next night

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I talked to her in her driveway for many, many, it was probably about a two hour conversation that we had.

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And she just sat and listened. She just sat and listened. Right. I can talk a lot right now, but that was a lot that night.

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And so two hour conversation goes by. She listens very patiently. Doesn't interrupt anything I could talk about. I cover everything.

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She must have really liked you. She did. I apparently. Two hours on Mormonism on the second date.

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It was bad. It was bad. And so, I mean, covered everything from plan of salvation,

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Joseph Smith, the need of prophets, temples, all these kind of stuff, pre -existence, you name it,

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I covered it with her. And at the final end, I bore my testimony to her. And after I got done, I thought to myself, she's going to be baptized tonight.

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Like there's no way that what I just said she can deny and what I just said I know to be true.

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I have an overwhelming feeling of knowing that this is true. And she looked over at me very lovingly and she said, that's stupid and not in the

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Bible. And it like hit me like a semi truck. Right. The feeling went from I knew what

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I was just saying to be true to that did actually really kind of sound stupid. What I just said, I need to go home and now look in the

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Bible. And every single day since then, looking in the Bible, I have never found one doctrine that I told her in the fullness of that conversation ever within the 66 books of the

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Bible. And so that really kind of was the starting point of walking, being drawn by Christ, I would say.

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I think I was saved probably about a month or two after that in a process of a Bible study where a gentleman read

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John one, one to me, which is a really interesting story we can talk about later. But yeah, so let me ask you this, then you're 19 years old, you had had to and you'd had to hear other people say to you that isn't in the

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Bible or was that the first time someone had ever said that? Or was it that the Lord just used a pretty girl to tell you that I didn't hit different?

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I mean, like what's you'd had you heard that before, didn't you? Or no. Is that the first time anyone had said, hey, look, you're teaching things outside of the

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Bible. And I'm thankful for God's providence and using pretty girl for that process. But I had heard

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I had heard Christians say those kind of things to me prior. Matt Slick for Karm .org,

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I had ran into him a couple of times at temples in the Boise area, found gospel tracks in the desert, desert industries, bookstores from people putting stuff in Book of Mormons, things

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I still really vividly remember when I was growing up that I think played a factor, like even in first, no, second grade,

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I had a had this wonderful little girl after I was baptized. I told her how

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I now have the Holy Spirit and now I could now I could be saved. And so I was like, you need to be baptized to this girl.

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And she said, no, I already have Jesus. I was like, no, you need to be baptized. And she's like, no, I already have Jesus. And I still remember like going back and forth in second grade with this girl about it.

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And so when I was LDS, I was I was very adamant about sharing my faith with people. I was a person like this is this is my quad that I had.

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And I got this when I was eight years old. And it says Elder Brayden Roger Patterson. I was as LDS as you can get

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LDS. You were like the little Alex P. Keaton of LDS.

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You were like, like, wow, you had that little yeah, you guys are listening to this.

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He just held up his little leather. It was a little leather satchel there with his name on it. Yeah. And very quickly,

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I wasn't saying just so you know, and for those listening, I wasn't saying derogatorily a pretty girl.

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I'm saying, oh, no, I love how relational God is that you're a you're a very smart and intelligent person.

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You study hard. You love to debate. You love to argue. And as an LDS, you were probably out there arguing.

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And the fact that you, you know, you came into contact with, let's say, a Matt Slick. Yet it was a girl that says, hey, that's stupid.

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That's not in the Bible. That that's who God used to prick your heart. I just love it. I think God has a sense of humor and he used the least likely person to put you on that path, you know, instead of being out argued or out debated in some forum where you probably would have thought that's where I would be converted.

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No, he used your future wife and the words of your future wife and the humbleness of a woman to go, no,

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I think you're dumb. I think that's stupid. And and, you know, on that side of things, she was even

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Catholic and we didn't end up becoming Catholic. Right. We became little C Catholic Christian. Right.

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Like, yeah. And so God's providence really was at play in those things. And looking back at it that day, the day prior than this, this kind of opening of an eyes and being drawn by God, if the day prior and she said something like that to me,

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I would have broken up with her. Like it was absolutely a sovereign act from God.

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Like there was no way looking back at it now in those 19 years. What I like, I was like kind of the

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LDS person that like wanted to get a tattoo of Book of Mormon verses on me. Like I was, yeah, you were all steeped in Mormonism that you could get.

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And so I would have never thought I would ever leave by any means. So so how do you start unpacking 19 years of tradition?

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You just get into the Bible. I mean, is that what you did? She says that you go, OK, let's see what the Bible says.

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Was that the journey? And how long did it take? Because I mean, 19 years, man, of of that type of theology, it takes a little bit,

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I would think, for those for that stuff to kind of shut away. It does. It absolutely does.

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I mean, there's still stuff that pops up in my mind and I'm trying to beat off my back in that sense, as far as terminology goes and things that I'm like, oh,

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I remember that being defined when I was LDS this way. I need to go and look in the Bible and redefine it the way that it needs to be defined.

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Right. And so initially at first, that was a was a very, very difficult process.

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And so in that month after I left the LDS faith and I knew that it couldn't be true, I just I started getting into like,

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OK, well, who can God be that who I know that there's a God. But I'm pretty sure there's a

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God. It was what I how I would say it. I'm pretty sure there's a God. How could I? And I still like I remember being

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LDS and watching Ray Comfort videos. And so I had this idea of, OK, there has to be this morality. There has to be this kind of this outside transcendent being

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God. But I know Jesus can't be God. Like, I know that that can't be the case is what my mind was going right.

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Because very LDS, like Jesus can't be God in that way. And and so that's where about a month later, this

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Bible study comes out. And it was a Bible study called Leaving Mormonism for Christ. And this gentleman named

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Nathan Anderson, I still remember it. They were they were doing this class. And and so my wife and I, my girlfriend at the time, and I, we attend this

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Bible study. And they said, OK, so we're going to teach people how to evangelize to LDS people who wants to volunteer to be the

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Mormon. And I'm like me, like I can I'll convert this Christian LDS religion right now. I can debate him on anything.

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And I I still remember sitting down from him and this this wonderful Christian Nathan. He opens up John one one and he just reads it.

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And I like just tears in my eyes. I can't deny Jesus is my Lord and God any longer. Like he is

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God in flesh paying the price of my sin there on the cross. And it was like this overwhelming.

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And if there was a time that I would place regeneration taking place, it was that night in that Bible study.

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And Emily had the same experience like two weeks after that reading Second Corinthians 521.

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And so definitely, definitely God's providence in those things. And I'm very thankful.

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So did she kind of come out of Catholicism and you kind of came out of Mormonism at the same time then? Yep. Absolutely.

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Yep. Together. Yep. All right. So let me so let me ask this. Did not did you make that jump from LDS right to reform theology or was there a stint there where you were kind of more in the

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Armenian camp and the charismatic or Pentecostal or what? What was your journey there? Yeah.

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And I would just say, no, I there was as far as going into Arminianism or Pentecostal type of theology.

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No. Which I praise God for those things. The reason that I think initially. So so in that Bible study,

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I got to have the opportunity to start being discipled by Matt Slick and then following that coming to Twin Falls, being discipled by Paul Thompson of Eastside Baptist Church.

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Men that are very, very much adherence to the doctrines of grace, adherence to what the

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Bible has to say about things that immediately I was being discipled in those ways and having people show me and exegete the

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Bible to show that this is this is there. This is what it is. I would argue that that was the first point that that drew me to to reform theology.

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But on a second note, reform theology is about as hundred eighty degrees away from LDS theology as you personally get.

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Right. I was just like, there's no there's no feelings that are attached to the proving that it's true. There's no it's.

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It's an authoritative way of understanding the Bible. Right. Subjective in that way. And so immediately that's where I gravitated to is

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I don't need to have feelings to know if I'm saved or not. Right. Like I don't need to have I don't need to pray this prayer to to get a validation of the faith that I have in Christ.

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And so that it definitely it was definitely appealing to me in those ways.

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And so I can acknowledge that as far as a presupposition goes, is that I think that that was something that definitely played into it.

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Yeah, I'd even heard people say because I had known a gentleman that kind of had the same journey as you from Mormon to reformed.

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And he said, oh, well, it's a natural landing place. And I went, I don't think so. I think it's the exact opposite, really.

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And we're going to get into a little bit of like what the differences are. You know, I came

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I came from basically a non -denominational Baptist church that was more fundamental for the first 13 years of my life than from a

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Bill Johnson endorsed Pentecostal from 13 to 18. So I got two extremes and I still landed on the doctrines of grace.

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So I talk to a lot of people that are in the reform camp, and that's probably one of the most eclectic groups of people who eventually end there because that's what the

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Bible says. You go into Pentecostals or charismatics. They've they've been that they've just always been that I don't

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I see a couple maybe leave the reformed theology and maybe jump to Pentecostal or charismatics, but by no means are the numbers the same the other way.

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It's much more the other way. So I would say even that was a common grace of God to bring you out of something that was very works based.

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And maybe we get into that next into something of the doctrines of grace. It's in the name. Grace is in the name of our theology, too, which is which is beautiful.

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So for those listening that maybe aren't too familiar with with the LDS church or that might go, hey, look at I I've heard

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I'm called Christians. When Romney ran in 08, it became very popular and people are going, look at their believers, you know, more current.

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We're talking about the chosen and saying, oh, well, some of the producers and writers on there are

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Mormon and we don't know if we believe the same. And some Christians are going, hey, man, it's all about the message and it seems

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OK. Others take a more hard line to go look at the LDS church is not a part of Orthodox Christianity.

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So now I have someone who is very learned in the LDS church and also learned in the

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Orthodox Christian faith from a reformed view. Maybe can we break some of those things down for the listeners that might be confused and go, what is the difference between Orthodox Christianity and the

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LDS church on, let's say, salvation or how it's how it's given or earned or if it's earned at all?

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Can we talk about that maybe? Because I think the listeners might be interested in going, OK, what are the what are the main differences here?

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Yeah, and I think I think just to just to be straightforward, our our LDS Christians, and that's an absolute overwhelming no.

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And the reason I would say that is that in a culture today that wants to redefine definitions, we need as Christians to be solid in our definitions and hold to what truth is.

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And so it wouldn't be fair for me to say that I'm an LDS member because I reject the Book of Mormon. I reject

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Joseph Smith as a prophet. I reject temples. I reject all these things that the LDS teach. It wouldn't be fair for me to say

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I'm an LDS member. An LDS person would say that is the most unfair thing that you could say, that you're an

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LDS because you do X, Y and Z things. You believe in X, Y and Z things. You can't say you're LDS. Well, that's the exact same argument we need to make for the

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Christian against why Mormons are not Christian. I think that fundamentally it boils down to three ways that they are not

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Christian in very obvious ways. There's a fundamental

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LDS doctrine that violates the essentials of Christianity, things that the Bible spells out for us that is you must believe this and you receive that.

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If you deny this, you'll receive this. Right. Very, very fundamental essentials. And so the first thing

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I would tell the listener to do is go Google search gospel space

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LDS dot org and read the definition according to their website about what the gospel is.

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And just to without quoting it verbatim right now, because I don't have it pulled up, it essentially says that the gospel is all the laws, ordinances, commandments, requirements that are necessary for you to be exalted.

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That's what the gospel is. So it's a works based salvation, a faith plus works based salvation. And this really comes from articles of faith three and four, which is

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I'll just read it here. I used to be able to quote all these things to you, but articles of faith three and four from the

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LDS website and their beliefs is we believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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So again, obedience is required. And then article of faith for it says we believe that the first principle and ordinance of the gospel are first faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ, second repentance, third baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, fourth laying on of the hands of the gift of the

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Holy Ghost. And on that premise, too, they would hold to in second Nephi chapter 25, verse 23,

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I believe it is. It says that for it is by grace that you are saved after all you can do.

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So it's very much a works based system. OK, which which so that would be like pillar one for why they cannot call themselves a

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Christian, because a Christian believes that we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Romans 3, 28, for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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Galatians chapter two, verse 16, for we know that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Even we have believed not by the works of the law, by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified.

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Even in verse 21 of Galatians 2, it says that if we believe that righteousness comes through the law, then

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Christ died needlessly. There's there's verse after verse after verse, even

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Ephesians chapter two, verse eight and nine. Right. The very common one that Christians will go to by by definition, the

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LDS are claiming a different means of salvation. And so right there, that that's a violation of Christian orthodoxy.

27:22

Christian Christian understanding of the Bible, Christian biblical teaching, period. Right. Yeah. The second second way that they violate this is you would hear in there that they say, oh, well, we believe in Jesus Christ, right?

27:33

Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ. I just had a wonderful sister in Christ give me a book that she had received from an

27:42

LDS person. This is it. It's a it's a new publication that the LDS church is pushing out right now.

27:49

It's Old Testament stories. And in there, in the very first opening page, we can see a different understanding of who

27:55

Jesus Christ is immediately. Right there is a picture of God, the father and God, the son.

28:02

I don't know if it's coming across that well, but the point of it is that they they view the father and the son as two distinct beings, not two distinct persons, but two distinct beings that the son and the father are separate.

28:17

The son is not eternal in the same sense that the father is eternal and all these kind of things. And we can look at a lot of different examples of of that and LDS theology.

28:27

Joseph Smith taught that we, through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that we just looked at, that we can become a

28:33

God of our own, that we can become gods like our God before us and that our God before us became a God through obedience to his

28:39

God. And just this polytheism, right, which violates the whole entire Bible right there.

28:45

Right. And so the character of Jesus Christ and the LDS faith is a different Jesus Christ than the

28:51

Jesus Christ that the Christian places their faith into. Yeah. So that would be the second violation of the gospel in an essential way.

29:00

First Corinthians chapter 15, verses four, one through four, says that the gospel is Jesus Christ dying for our sins, according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again on the third day, according to scriptures.

29:11

If I said I had faith in Jesus Christ, most Christians rejoice at that. But if I said Jesus is actually my cashier down at the

29:18

Kroger grocery store down the way and he goes by Jesus, he's a really nice cashier, I have faith in him to save me.

29:25

Everybody would say, no, don't don't place your faith in that. That's not the Jesus I was talking about.

29:31

Right. And so that's what's taking place with Mormonism and Christianity. Christianity is appealing to Jesus, according to the

29:37

Bible. Jesus says in John 8, verse 24, unless you believe I am, you shall die in your sins.

29:44

He claims divinity. And so that's an essential of Christianity is that you have to believe Jesus Christ is the one and only

29:49

God in flesh, the hypostatic union. And then the third way that they would violate the

29:54

Orthodox Christian teaching that I would argue would be a denial of there only being one

30:00

God. They believe in a plurality of gods, a God that isn't a creator.

30:05

In Abraham chapter four, I believe it is in their Bible. There isn't a book in the

30:10

Bible that's called Abraham. The LDS have a book called Abraham. And in there it talks about how God isn't the one and only creator, but that he reorganized existing material that was already there.

30:21

And so there's fundamental definition differences within Christianity and within Christianity comparing it to Mormonism.

30:29

And so the Christian needs to understand those things and be ready to be armed with sharing the true gospel that actually saves to these kind of people.

30:35

No, that's good. Um, so really quick, I just had something popped in my head. How did you view

30:41

Christians growing up in the LDS church when you were six, 15, 16, 17, getting into your teens, you know, you're, you're getting ready for mission, all that stuff.

30:51

Did you, how did you view, I don't know, reformed or not charismatic, whatever an

30:56

AG church, how did you, the evangelical church, how did you view them? Did you just view them as lost? Did you view them as crazies?

31:02

Did you view them as misunderstood? Or did you say, look, we have the true knowledge of, of, of Christ in, in the true revelation of the prophets.

31:11

What, what was your view looking out to them? Yeah. So when I, when I was raised, I was in the process of where they started really pushing the idea that, that LDS are

31:19

Christians. Right. And so I still remember my father even saying, oh, we would have never, we would have never called ourselves

31:24

Christians when I was growing up. Right. And I still remember having this conversation with him on that. When I was raised

31:30

LDS, what I viewed it as was that we have faith in the same Jesus Christ is what I thought.

31:38

However, how I viewed it, and even according to, according to seminary, I still remember a video playing that showed it, it showed like a, a mirror, a picture of Jesus or something like that.

31:48

And there was all these, these strings that were holding the mirror up. And so they taught that when the apostles died, those strings got cut, the mirror comes down, shatters, and the pieces go everywhere.

31:59

And then what denominations have done is they've come and they grabbed a certain piece, this person grabbed this piece, this denomination grabs this piece.

32:06

And so they all have picked pieces of the truth, but they don't have the entire truth. And so what Joseph Smith did in their mind is that Joseph Smith got all those pictures and he then put the strings back up there, put them on the wall, glued them together, and that's now a restored picture of restored church.

32:22

And so the LDS fundamentally are teaching, even Christians aren't really in the full sense,

32:28

Christians is kind of what they're getting at, even Joseph Smith. And according to Joseph Smith history, he says that when he saw the father and the son in this, this garden account, or in this first vision account, he says that Jesus says to him, all their professing creeds are nothing but an abomination in my eyes, right?

32:46

Nothing but an abomination in my sight. And those are the creeds in his day. And then it's recorded that, that he goes back to his mom and he says,

32:53

I've discovered for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. And so you already know this, but what he was saying was the creed that, that, that was, that was blasphemous in the eyes of the

33:03

Lord are the same creeds that you and I hold to today, right? And so Christian LDS are trying to say they're

33:10

Christian, but also deny Christianity at the same time by saying that the church lost, it was lost.

33:17

The church in its fullness was lost for 1800 years. Joseph Smith picked those things back up and put them together for us.

33:24

Is that a riff within the LDS church being called Christian or not? Is it like kind of more traditional LDS go,

33:30

Hey, we don't want to be called that. And then there's a kind of a newer generational push to include. I didn't know that.

33:36

It sounds like there is. It is. There absolutely is. Uh, in the, in the older generations, they, they, they, unless they're very much influenced by younger generations, older generations would not try to appeal to calling themselves

33:49

Christian. And I would even argue that it, that Russell M Nelson, uh, who just came out and said that you shouldn't be called

33:54

Mormons, that you shouldn't even really be called LDS members. You should be calling yourself members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

34:01

Saints. He, he argued that that's your title. That's what you should be. Even in that, like Russell Nelson saying, you shouldn't call yourself a

34:07

Christian. You should be calling yourself a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. Uh, that, that's what you are.

34:13

Right. And so, um, I think what that's really being influenced by is, is the all -inclusive culture that we have right now, that everybody is right.

34:22

Let's, let's just really, uh, uh, step tiptoe around all these controversies and everybody is, everybody's correct.

34:29

Right. And so I think that that's kind of where that stems from in the, in the younger generations. Yeah. Well, I mean, we've been, we, we've been playing around with and dabbling with subjective truth in this country for 40 plus years now.

34:40

And we're just now getting to the head of that and we're seeing what kind of effects that has. All right. So as we put bookends on this, um, what if someone out there knows has a friend or comes in contact with an

34:52

LDS member, what's the best way to talk to them? I don't want you to give us a full 30 minute.

34:57

I mean, cause you cover a lot of this kind of stuff on your, uh, ex -Mormon reformed ex -Mormon

35:03

YouTube channel. And, uh, we'll make sure we link that up on the show here. So people can go check you out and see all that, but what are, what are some, maybe a couple of key ways if we have a friend that, that, uh, identifies

35:14

LDS and how do we strike up a conversation? What are some of the key things we should say or shouldn't say?

35:21

What do you think? The one thing, the one thing I would argue very, there's a lot of people that teach methodology in, in, in how to evangelize to an

35:29

LDS person. I've never once heard a methodology say that you should say that's stupid and not in the Bible. Right.

35:35

Never once heard that from one of those programs. That's not in the advocating, you go on your neighbor's door and say that's stupid and not in the

35:45

Bible. Hey, if that's what you meant to say, say it then.

35:50

Right. But, um, I think so. I think fundamentally having the gospel rooted in your core and just being armed and ready to answer objections,

35:59

I think is very, very important. It's very easy in, in, as a Christian and many

36:04

Christians fall into this because they're not LDS, they weren't raised LDS, many Christians think that if I, if I can destroy

36:11

Joseph Smith as a prophet, that, that I win the conversation, they're going to come to Christ, right?

36:17

And they almost bring up these ideas, these bad things that LDS have done, these bad doctrines that they've taught or, or things that Joseph Smith has done in a history sense, they're black marks and they're easy to identify.

36:28

They're easy to shake an LDS in their faith, but the LDS person, and I've had LDS people do this to me, they'll close their ears and walk away from the conversation.

36:37

And all you've done is you've actually just reconfirmed them that Christians aren't loving to them in their opinion.

36:43

And all you've done is, is made them go away, not knowing Jesus Christ. And if they leave the

36:48

Mormon church, they're going to go into atheism because they don't know that there was an alternative in the sense of a true

36:54

God. Right. They've lost trust in any idea of who God is. And so I would encourage the Christian to not go to the black marks that are easy to identify with in the

37:02

LDS theology, but be ready to talk about the gospel and how we only have one

37:08

God who we've sinned against and in order to have forgiveness, that one God had to become flesh, live a life that you and I can't live, die the death that you and I deserve, was buried and rose again on the third day.

37:18

And that if we say that anything is required on our side of things, then his grace is not sufficient.

37:25

Um, be ready with those things. Be ready, know the Bible well enough to be able to articulate those things. I think we've covered a decent amount of verses that are really easy to show those things in.

37:35

Um, John 8, 24, Galatians chapter two, uh, uh, Romans chapter three, four and five.

37:41

Those are really easy places. Philippians three, Ephesians two, really easy places that you can take an

37:47

LDS person to and just be ready. Um, the one place an LDS person is always going to take you to is

37:53

James chapter two. Know the context of James chapter two, and you'll be able to argue against them and actually show that, that, that still teaches grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

38:03

And so, um, that would be my encouragement is don't, don't go to the black marks to prove LDS wrong, go to the gospel and let the gospel speak for itself.

38:11

Yeah, absolutely. Stay within the word because we, we get that too. Like when we're, when you and I are talking to, let's say agnostics or atheists or someone from a different religion, they love bringing up, oh, well in the middle ages, the

38:23

Christian, and it's like, okay, but that's not a representation of what I'm saying here. And I would assume that's the same if I was

38:30

LDS and you're bringing up some black mark, I could easily just go. Yeah. But that's not the representation of the argument

38:36

I'm making here. So good advice, because I think, you know, we deal with that, uh, on our own way.

38:42

So, all right. So as we end here, um, one, one last question I want to just, we talked a lot about LDS and all that, but what's going on in your life right now?

38:53

Uh, what's, what are you thinking about? What are you preaching on? What is, uh, God, um, kind of revealing to you through his word.

39:02

I've always found, and I'll give a caveat cause I'm actually buying you time because you didn't know this question was coming, but I've always found that in my life, in a lot of other people's life, especially if you're, if you're really into just reading and debating and studying,

39:17

God will bring you through a season of something. And you're like, man, for the last three months, I've been gnawing on this and I just can't get it out and I'll dive into it and look at it and roll it around and flip it over and poke it.

39:27

Right. And I think you might be on that same, same track. What give us something non LDS related that the

39:34

Lord has been, uh, I don't know, just, just really, you've been thinking about or wrestling with or contemplating or wanting to learn more about, uh, have

39:43

I given you enough time yet? You got something? I got something. Yeah. I got something right now. There's several things.

39:50

So like right now I'm preaching through the book of Philippians right now. And so I'm having a blessed time going through that.

39:55

And so, uh, just as far as the pastoral side of things is just, just finding joy in preaching

40:01

Christ, uh, crucified to, to his sheep and his bride, just a joy, truly a joy to worship

40:08

God, uh, with, with his people. Um, as far as something that I've been doing personally, so I'm in,

40:13

I'm in reform Baptist seminary right now. I'm enrolled as a student to that, uh, seminary, which has been a blessing, but something

40:19

I've been wrestling with a lot lately is theonomy, uh, that, that stuff and how does, uh, judicial, and I'm assuming that's probably where you thought

40:28

I was going to say, right. And that says it's been just a really, no, but I'm glad you brought it up. Yeah, it's been a really hot topic in, in, in, in reform

40:35

Christendom right now. Um, I, I, I, I accept theonomy in its definition of the word theonomy

40:42

God's law. I love God's law, right? It's been written on my heart, but I would deny it in the extremes that many people are taking it right now.

40:48

I think the judicial and ceremonial law was until Christ. And those things were a shadow and brought us to the substance.

40:54

And once we have the substance, there's something that, uh, since, since there's a, the, the mediator of a new covenant has come, there's also been a change of law also with those things, according to the book of Hebrews.

41:04

And so just really been wrestling with those things, trying to find out then how can we, um, how can we, uh, objectively, uh, tell a government or any people to hold to a standard?

41:16

What is that standard? And I think it's transcendent law and that would, we'd have to open up a whole can of worms, uh, 40 more minutes of the conversation to really get into it.

41:24

So what this, so what this will be this, that's a little teaser because here's the thing I have. I'm in the works right now of creating maybe a six or seven person round table on a live stream, and you're going to be included in that.

41:37

Uh, we're going to have probably three people, um, who are maybe pro Christian nationalism and pro -theonomy.

41:44

And then we're probably going to have three people or maybe four and four, three and three. We don't want to get too crowded that go, well, let's pump the brakes on this.

41:52

And maybe it's more transcendent law in, in, in those type of laws ended with Christ, and I think it's going to be a really good conversation because here's the thing, all six of the people that I'm going to have on there, and we'll talk about this offline and for those listening probably in the next few months, maybe more towards summer.

42:07

This, this is when we're trying to do it. All six of those people that I have in mind, I absolutely respect.

42:13

And I, I agree with them on every single primary issue. We're going to have some secondary, secondary issue, uh, uh, secondary issue, uh, disagreements, but, um, overall,

42:25

I think it's going to be a respectful talk and I know I'm popping this on you now on the podcast, but you're going to be getting a text from me saying,

42:32

I'd like you to be on this round table because those types of discussions, I think need to be had.

42:38

Um, and I think the less of those discussions we have, the more we can start to separate and go, okay, well, my camp's over here and my camp's over here.

42:46

When in fact, I think at the end of the day, we all love God's law and we want to see the culture change. We want to see

42:51

Christ change hearts. Um, and we know that Christ is going to rule and reign. So when we start at that foundation,

42:57

I think we can have a discussion. So what you just said without you knowing, it was kind of a teaser for something

43:03

I'm hoping I can get you to be part of, uh, in the future. I know you're very busy. You're pastoring, you're in seminary.

43:08

You have a family, got a new one on the way, but we'll work something out because I do want to have you on there. So before we get out of here, throw out the links where people can get ahold of you, find you on social or watch your

43:20

YouTube videos. Yeah. So first of all, I, I, I would, I would urge anybody that's in the Southern Idaho area, if you live near Hagerman, um, look it up on Google, you'll see it on the map, uh,

43:30

I would love for you to come worship God with us. Uh, Hagerman Valley Baptist Church. It would be a blessing to have you. Um, you can find me on Facebook, Brayden Patterson, add me as a friend.

43:38

If you have any questions about LDS theology, how to talk to them, how to preach the gospel to them. I would love to help you in any way that I possibly can.

43:46

And then, uh, a good link, uh, that where I just post just all sorts of different things that are on my mind, topics, uh, sermons, all those kinds of things is

43:53

ReformedExMormon on YouTube. Go check that out. It would, it would be a blessing to have you, uh, share those things, like those things, subscribe to those things and let's, let's advance the

44:02

King God together. Amen. And that's a very beneficial YouTube channel guys.

44:07

Make sure you go check it out. Give it a subscribe, a like, make sure you get notified. He does have a lot of good stuff up there. Brayden, uh,

44:13

I just met you last month, but it feels like I've known you for a lifetime. Um, I know we're, this is the beginning of hopefully a long friendship where we can discuss things that matter.

44:23

We can glorify God and all that we do. Um, uh, and also you do the open air stuff too.

44:28

I should mention. Yeah. Yeah. Throw that out. I should probably throw a plug in that. I apologize.

44:34

I apologize to both Jeff and Haps for not mentioning that right now. I feel like a turd right now that I just did that. I'll be right.

44:39

I'll be repenting later of it. Um, the, uh, so yeah, open air theology. We have a, we have a

44:45

Facebook page that we do that kind of stuff. Jeff Rice usually shares that as well with post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

44:50

I re I redeem myself. You see how I threw in his plugin right there too. Um, but yeah, go, go check out open air theology.

44:56

It's a really fun time where we have just the three of us or sometimes four, sometimes less, sometimes more of us that are on there and we just talk a variety of conversations.

45:06

I think actually today we're going to be talking about the conference and we're going to be talking a little bit about the on me stuff.

45:11

So yeah, go check that out. That would be, that'd be a blessing to have people go check out open air theology as well. Yeah.

45:17

Open air theology podcast guys go subscribe, go like it. Um, you will be blessed. So Brayden, thanks so much for coming on.

45:23

We appreciate you being gracious with your time. We know you're busy. You got that young family that you need to take care of. Go get back to that beautiful wife and that child on the way.

45:31

Do we know what it is yet? No, not yet. Not yet. Are you going to find a boy or a girl? It's not going to be anything else than that, but spoken like a true reformed conservative

45:42

Christian. That's right. The way God designed it, a boy or a girl guys. I think so much for listening with that.

45:49

We're going to end, um, as always, we appreciate you guys sharing, telling a friend, uh, jumping on with us and, uh, sharing the social stuff.

45:57

As always remember the chief end of man is a glorified God. Enjoy him forever. Brain. Thanks again. God bless you.

46:03

God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips, or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com.