Islam, Mormonism, and the Trinity

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And welcome to dividing line on the 29th of December 2009 almost done
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But I don't know about you, but it's just another day on the calendar It's it's it's nice to be reminded that we need to be looking toward another year but after a certain number of years have passed you know, they also start blending together and At this time of this year, obviously we are very focused upon Important issues and as most of you know on Christmas Day this just few days ago
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We almost got to add 1225 to the list of dates that people in the
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West now know such as 911 and 7 -7 if you don't know what 7 -7 is you've been living in a lead mine someplace or have never been to the
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UK, but The fact the matter is were it not for a malfunctioning detonator the flaming debris of an
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Airbus a 330 would have plummeted to the earth over Detroit on Christmas Day and We would once again be discussing
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The deaths of hundreds of people suddenly in the name of Islam Umar Farooq Abdulmutallab is a man from Nigeria who is currently recovering from third -degree burns self -inflicted obviously and I wrote an article on our blog
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Yesterday, I believe This title dar al -harb why you need to know this
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Arabic phrase I said is pronounced dar al -harb memorize it because it explains why the
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Nigerian in the window seat is trying to blow you and nearly 300 other people with you on your international flight to pieces as you descend into a major American city
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I note today a article That says hundreds of al -qaeda militants are planning terror attacks from Yemen the country's foreign minister said today
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Abu Bakr al -kirby appealed for more help from the international community to help to train and equip Counterterrorist forces his plea came after an al -qaeda group based in Yemen claimed responsibility for the failed
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Christmas Day airliner bomb plot Umar Farooq Abdulmutallab Alleged to be behind the attempt to blow up an
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American -bound aircraft Alleged like you only have how many hundreds of witnesses here
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Spent time in Yemen with al -qaeda and was in the country only days before the failed attack That's probably where he got the underwear bomb
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Al Kirby said of course there are a number of al -qaeda operators in Yemen and some of their leaders We realize this danger they may actually plan attacks like the one we have just had in Detroit There are maybe hundreds of them 200 300 of them
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Kirby said it was the responsibility of countries with strong intelligence capabilities to warn states such as Yemen About the movements of terror suspects.
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Well the guy got in the plane without a passport, so It's gonna be tough when that kind of thing happens.
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This is interesting. Mr. Abdulmutallab former tutors at University College London where he was a student between 2005 and 2008 described him as well -mannered quietly spoken plight and able and Said that he never gave any cause for concern he was president of the institution's
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Islamic Society between 2006 and 2007 so we have the president of the
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Islamic Society the University College of London trying to kill hundreds of people why
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Would Umar Farooq Abdulmutallab want to do so well. I attempted to explain this in my article and that is the radicalized form of Islam now and immediately
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We have to and if you've heard me talk about this before well if you want to tune out fine
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I'm not sure how you can because if you turn over to Fox or CNN they're gonna be talking about the same thing just without a meaningful background
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They're gonna be talking about it from a secular perspective they're gonna be talking about it without a knowledge of Islam, and that's the problem and Unfortunately our leaders our secularist socialist leaders are likewise clueless
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About why these people do what they do. They are clueless because they think that Islam is a religion
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It is a religio political system When it is in the minority it is a religio political system when it becomes closer to the majority becomes a politico
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Religio system in other words the more Muslims you have the more the political aspect becomes central and so They don't see that they don't understand that they're
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Westerners They're secularized Westerners, and they don't understand that Islam is a political system
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They separate religion and politics isn't that what we're all supposed to do isn't that what the
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Constitution says we're supposed to well It actually doesn't but that's been pounded in their brains so much. I think everyone thinks that way and they don't
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It is a religio political system. They go together. They cannot be separated and in the
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Islamic Brotherhood Sayyid Qutb the Islamic Brotherhood al -qaeda
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Osama bin Laden in their thinking one of the greatest errors of Western thinking is
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To separate The political sphere and the religious sphere, that's that is the very end of True religion from their perspective and so once an individual buys into this form of Islam then their thinking becomes extremely black and white and I mentioned two phrases that would be very good for you to memorize and understand
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Dar al -harb the world of war the world of fighting the world of struggle the world of the sword and Dar al -islam in the
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Muslim Brotherhood's perspective the Dar al -islam Involves all those areas where Sharia has been established for many of them for Osama bin
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Laden That's only where the Taliban is there is even Saudi Arabia With its control over the holy sites is
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Not truly Dar al -islam Because Sharia has not been thoroughly established in those areas
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That's why The leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood like Sayyid Qutb were executed in Egypt because the
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Egyptian leadership did not want to establish that kind of governmental system either and so that is why al -qaeda is
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Fought by the Saudis fought by the Egyptians and Keep something else in mind that you're not gonna again here on Fox News you're not gonna hear on especially not gonna hear on CNN and No one at this
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NBC knows how to say the words But these groups do not like each other
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Hezbollah fights al -qaeda Why they're all Muslims, right? well sort of But they have different purposes
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Local cells and groups like Hezbollah are focused solely upon the area of Palestine and the
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Palestinian situation Al -qaeda is worldwide. And so what al -qaeda did for example in Detroit Only angers
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Americans, which doesn't help Hezbollah. So Hezbollah fights al -qaeda and they kill each other
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And of course, hopefully you are aware of the fact that the vast majority of Islamic violence in the world is
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Muslim on Muslim Sunnis killing Shias she is killing Sunnis Everybody killing the
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Ahmadiyya It's just that's the vast majority of it They they kill fellow
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Muslims all the time because it's a political system And when your politics are not right, then you become you're on the wrong side, but you get to have
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God Get to tell you to do those things. So The Dhar al -harb for many people in the
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Middle East is simply another word for the West. We are the great Satan and They think in very black and white terms
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They see the debauchery of Western civilization. They think that's the result of Christian civilization and Therefore there's nothing redeeming about it.
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There's nothing good about it and In fact as they see their own young people attracted to it attracted to its ways of dress
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It's immodesty. It's debauchery. It's technology then they see even more that there's no reason to make distinctions as to this
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Dhar al -harb and so Those who become radicalized are convinced that you have the two
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Dhar al -Islam Dhar al -harb And if you are a soldier of Islam Then you are in essence free to do what that man attempted to do on flight 253
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Because all those people many of whom know nothing about Islam. They don't care about Islam They don't they they don't even know when
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Muhammad lived. It doesn't matter. You can violently kill them Because they are a part of the
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Dhar al -harb and You are seeking to bring in Dhar al -Islam by killing the coffers now
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There are Muslims in Detroit and other places Who this day are as soon as they heard the first reports were cringing cringing and they are the quote -unquote moderates and They would like to argue with Mr.
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Abdul -mutallab and They would like to point to the fact that for example, you have the
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Dhar al -dawa The world where Invitation to Islam is being practiced apologetics what we would call evangelism, but from the
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Islamic perspective. What about that? How? How do you fit that in? Why wasn't there any attempt to call these people to Islam and they would also argue look
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You cannot have a true state of jihad Without a
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Muslim state and a caliph to declare the jihad. There is no caliph today
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So there can be no jihad so When a state of jihad has been declared then the coffers life and the coffers property is forfeit to the
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Muslim soldier But if there has been no state of jihad declared legally by a proper caliph
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Then that is not the case. And so they would argue what this man did was wrong and They could go to various sources for example in The hadith sahih al -bukhari volume 4 book 52 number 257
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Narrated Abdullah during some of the gaza wad of the Prophet a woman was found killed
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Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children Likewise number 258 repeating in essence the same thing except this time
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It says during some of the guys who watered the Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed So Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children yet Here's the problem these sources
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Can be cherry -picked by anyone I Mean people accuse Christians of picking and choosing what they will will not believe in the
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Bible and there's all sorts of groups to do but you take the Quran and you take the hadith and put them together and you have a massive field of Statements that can be interpreted in all sorts of different ways many times
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There's almost no meaningful context given to where you can say no you're misusing that and So your favorite teacher your
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Osama bin Laden your radicalized imam That was that the
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Fort Hood shooter was in contact with that was also in contact with this man Let's send some
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Navy SEALs after him and not put them up for court -martial for crying out loud These people will take these sources and they will pick
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The source the interpretation they want and They will convince people of that and I don't see a whole lot of formal debates taking place in the
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Islamic world between these two sides Unfortunately, once the the radicals take over the moderates disappear if they want to stay alive and so others will go to for example book 19 number 43 21
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This is in Sahih Muslim It is reporting the authority of Saab bin
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Jathama That the Prophet of Allah may peace be upon him when asked about the women and children of the polytheists
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Being killed during the night raid said they are from them They are from them in other words
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Because they were polytheists and they're opposing Islam. Well It's collateral damage
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Just the way it is And so that's how al -qaeda gets around this there are all sorts of ways to get around this
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All you have to do is go well all People are born Muslims that is a
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Muslim belief The the hadith teaches that all of us that God rubbed
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Adam Allah rubbed Adam's back I've explained this in the past and I recognize unfortunately for most
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Christians the eyes roll back in the head and Music starts playing and and then when
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I start talking about Calvinism everybody wakes up again until something like this happens but the hadith teach teaches that Allah rubbed
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Adam's back and all of us who would come from him came forth from Adam and we stood upon this plane and a covenant was made between all of us and Allah, and this is it was a mythic
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And this is what results in our having the fitra the the natural Recognition that there is but one true
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God Allah because we were there see I've played for you these comments by Shaykh Yasir Qadhi a number of months ago, or maybe over a year ago now
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I don't remember when it was so the idea that they come up with is look you're born of you're born a
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Muslim If you're no longer a Muslim today, that means you're an apostate. What is
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The legal penalty for apostasy in Islam death So if you're born a
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Muslim and you're no longer Muslim now, you're living in the West Then You are already under the penalty of death for having apostatized from Islam anyways
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So it doesn't matter collateral damage. No, you're an apostate. You're actually getting what you deserve. There you go
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And so that is the radicalized form now Again the the moderate will say no you need to look at this
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No, you need to look at that, but they're all drawing from the same sources and the sources contradict each other. That's the problem
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That's the problem. We may want the moderates to win the debates Actually, we want the moderates and the radicals to stop debating at all and abandon the whole thing it's false.
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It's not true But we might want the the moderates to win those debates But the problem is any debate position is only as sound as the sources upon which the debate is taking place and the sources in Islam Make us, you know when
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I hear our leaders our political figures going We need a political solution in the
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Middle East blah blah blah blah. They are just so naive and ignorant. It is enough to make you
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Just just become ill They don't understand the system they're talking about and yet they've been put in a position of having to make decisions about these things and Me it was all the same time the people in the
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Middle East look at us and they look at the garbage Hollywood's cranking out and they say see the great
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Satan They go on YouTube and they watch watch our senators standing on the Senate floor drunk and they go see alcohol
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Can't drink it in Islam Your leaders soused Great Satan gotta fight you doesn't exactly open up a lot of opportunities for dialogue now, does it?
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Yeah So there you go. That's why you need to understand these things.
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Now I mentioned in my article. I said Lord willing I'll comment on the contrast between Islam's use of politics and militarism as a means of expansion with the biblical view of How Christ is building his kingdom in the hearts and minds of his people on the dividing line tomorrow at 11 a .m
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Well, that's where we are now And Whenever you discuss these things you immediately have the atheists and others
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You say look there's not a dime's worth of difference Between the fundamentalist
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Muslim and the fundamentalist Christian now, of course the term fundamentalist today No longer has any meaning it has been completely torn from its historical roots and Now refers to the closed -minded radical
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Devotee who is beyond reason beyond capacity to exercise logic. That is that is the meaning of fundamentalist now that's not what it used to mean
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I Have even been on radio stations many years ago defending the fundamentalist position because of course historically what it meant was a person who accepts the fundamentals of a religious faith
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It had nothing to do with whether you were actually open -minded enough to know Why other people believed what other people believed and to interact with them in a respectful way now, it simply means well
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For a Christian it means the pastor of the church that couldn't burn the Bibles Couldn't burn the the books on Halloween, but they just tore him up and threw him in a trash can
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That is a fundamentalist in most people's minds someone who just doesn't matter what you say to him
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It's it's it just bounce off. There's there's nobody on this side listening and so They say look there's there's absolutely no difference because let's face it
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What basically Osama bin Laden is saying is this he's saying? Allah is the creator of all people
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Allah has given his law his Sharia and in that Sharia is
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Is Expressed his divine will for how men are to live and the only way to truly be happy in this life is to live as Allah would have you to live because you are his creation and that That Sharia must be established around the world for the good of mankind and they say look
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You look at the New Testament. What does Jesus say? Someday everyone's gonna stand before him
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Every knee will bow every tongue will confess Jesus told a parable about The rebellious people who are bought before him and killed
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There's going to be a day of judgment Jesus is the judge Conquering King Lord of Lords, etc, etc.
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What's the difference? well, first of all
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For many Christians, they are completely terrified of admitting the
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Bible's teaching that someday there's going to be a judgment and That Jesus will be a conquering
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King and he will rule and reign on this earth They're terrified of that.
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Oh, wait, wait, that sounds that's a very postmodern Well, it's not that's true. There are
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Presentations of Jesus in the New Testament at least the New Atheist have gotten this part, right? You know remember we've mentioned this just last week that The New Atheist at least go you people that go
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Old Testament God mean nasty New Testament God Have you read the New Testament? You're skipping the good parts here because there's all sorts of wrath and stuff here, too
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And they're right only partially but they are at least right at that point. So the first thing to do is to admit the propriety of certain parallels because you can't give a meaningful answer and so you have been truthful about the facts and the fact is
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Jesus Will rule and reign He's building his kingdom has been for 2 ,000 years and Someday every knee will bow some in some in loving adoration and some in subjection
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That's fact So are they right? Well, of course not
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Well, why not? Because the means by which this takes place In Islam, how do you become a
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Muslim? Well, there's a certain string of Arabic words you say and poof. You're a Muslim then you say the five daily prayers and you fast during Ramadan and you gives the cot and That's your
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Muslim, but that's not how a person becomes a
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Christian. Well, at least not biblically Sadly much of false Christianity really has nothing to say here
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But Leaving that aside speaking of biblical Christianity The only true
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Christian is a Christian who's been made a Christian by the Spirit of God. There has been true repentance
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There's been true faith. There has been regeneration. It is a spiritual act and Is a spiritual act of sovereignty on the part of God it is a
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Kingdom that Christ has been building that is in the hearts of his people that kingdom even exists in Saudi Arabia Where there are
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Christians and they are persecuted and they are in prison But Christ's kingdom exists there and cannot be wiped out by any power
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Because it is not within human power to wipe it out and so that kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and it is
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Created in the hearts and minds of people as they are brought into relationship with the
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Holy God through Jesus Christ It cannot be forced upon someone at the end of a rifle
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You can say all the words and whatever languages you want that will not change the heart now
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Muslims understand that they're at least thinking Muslims understand that there are a lot of nominal
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Muslims in the world too who are not truly in Subjection to Allah. They're not they may say the prayers
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They may go through the motions But it really doesn't impact them and and at least thinking
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Muslims in the West see this and are troubled by it But there's nothing within their system that can change that their system
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Allows for that it even promotes it to be perfectly honest with you And so the fundamental difference between the establishment of Christ's kingdom and the establishment of Sharia is
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The mechanism by which it is to take place God does it Miraculously and spiritually through regeneration.
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That's Christianity Islam Militarism fear terror
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The sword I Know that there are moderate Muslims going no no no it can't be done that way, but that's how it's been done in the past and even when
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Islam succeeds in taking over an area Does it really change anyone's heart
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I? Mean people might submit just out of fear just just to stay alive
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But that's not much of a Real commitment now is it so the fundamental difference is that Christianity is a divine work.
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It is a spiritual work and when Christ returns He's not gonna have to raise armies and stuff like that Because you see
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Christ is the one from whom right now if you are not in subjection to him you're stealing his heir Every beat of your heart comes from his hand
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And if you're not thankful for it Well, it's pretty easy for him to stop that He's a judge.
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He has all power. He doesn't have to bring tanks and airplanes and any weapons of mass destruction
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Because you're already in his hand he already controls every aspect of your life and So establishing his sovereignty in the physical world well, it really won't be that difficult to do 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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I will be on The radio Paul Edwards program at 220
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Eastern time no no 220 my times of 420 Eastern Time. I think it's in Detroit To discuss these same issues, so if you are in that area you might want to listen at that time
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I'm not sure if those programs are archived, but you've just heard everything I have to say anyway, so but We'll be on that program this afternoon 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number if you would like to call in on that subject or other subjects because obviously there are other things to be discussing, but I don't know about you.
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I fly all the time. I fly all the time I fly way too much and That just became an even less enjoyable experience
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I mean, I always try to avoid that last period of time hitting the restroom anyways but in a sense the man succeeded because I don't care what city you're flying into but Especially if you're on an international flight
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Everyone's gonna be looking around. I'll just tell you a quick story before we go to our phone calls I Saw a very similar situation to this one.
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It's not in the sense of the fire and stuff like that, but They said that this man spent you know 20 minutes in the bathroom.
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Well. We know what he was doing He was mixing his chemicals together out of his underwear But I Was on a flight on September 10th not this year's for years ago on September 10th, but it's after 9 -11, and I was flying to Toronto and While we were still boarding
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I was in first class I had gotten my free upgrade I don't think I was the frequent flyer yet.
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It's because my wife actually worked for the airline but I was in first class and This guy dressed a little oddly
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Not and I'm not a North American Couldn't tell exactly where he was from but he was from someplace else
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Pushes by everybody and goes into the first -class restroom While people are still boarding it happens once in a while, but he was rather brusque
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Had had sandals on Was in there for a while comes back out goes back behind the first -class cabin because he's
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I think he was in like row six or something like that um Shortly after we take off as soon as you get up.
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He was back in there again now As soon as he went back into the second time I caught the eye of the flight attendant, and she saw me
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And I didn't say anything. I just sort of And she went She nodded her head that she had seen it as well
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So he comes out goes back to his seat ten minutes later
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He stands up and She blocks his path and She said sir
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This is for the first class only Please use the rear one well. He gets upset.
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What do you mean? I've got to go. This is the closest one So I stood up This is back
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May of 2005 I weighed 254 pounds height of the weightlifting period for me so I wasn't
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I what when I stood so if I stood up in the aisle there wasn't a place to go in the aisle and Other people in first class are looking to So he goes back to his seat, but you can tell that he is agitated and So she said to me you know she started talking to me the flight attendant
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I said look. I'm a spouse of a You just use the term spouse. I know that that they know that your wife or husband works the airline
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I'm a spouse. What do you want me to do? It says if he comes up again take him out Get get get in the way and and do not let him pass
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Take him out And then she brought yet the rest of flight crew up And we sort of formed a cordon and they went through that bathroom with a fine -toothed comb they went in there what's he what's going on in here and When we landed
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That guy Remember he wasn't in first class He ran past all of us in first class and if you land up in Toronto And you're going through customs you get to walk about 14 miles to get there
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I think we land in the States and walk into Canada or something. It's ridiculous and He ran past all was by the time we got to the
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Where they you know check passports stuff like that nowhere to be seen I mean he literally ran out of the airport
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There's one of my stories What was going on the guy needed some ammonium ad
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I don't know maybe it's possible Or what something else going on don't know
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But seemed pretty stupid to be doing that on an international flight on September 10th You know just didn't seem right and There's a lot of this stuff going on.
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That's just all there is to it. We see why And what happened on flight to 254 877 -753 -334 -1 we're gonna take your phone calls.
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We'll be right back The history of the
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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the
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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
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Dr. J Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.
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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words
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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org
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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you And on back to the dividing line let's get to our phone calls and We've got plenty of lines open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
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Let's talk with Kyle Hi, Kyle Hi there, James. Thanks for taking my call. Appreciate it. Yes, sir well a couple weeks ago,
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I had some Mormon elders come and knock on my door and I bet you they weren't very elderly were they?
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It is a little bit funny my you know the way I use the term elder and the way they use the term Vastly different, but the amazing thing is when
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I talked to my first two elders. We were the same age So now I look at him I go. Oh good grief. They're younger than my youngest
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Yeah, I bet we're close I'm only 22 and I bet they were about 19 or 20, yeah So anyway, so I was prepared there the first time and kind of heard him out and tried to raise the issues that I had on hand at the time, but my goal is to try to loving engage them and and try to interact with their text and pray that the
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Lord works a miracle in their heart, but so I tried to read through large portions of their book and Book of Mormon.
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Yes. Yeah, and so, you know, I could have saved you I could have saved you some time and just told you to read 2nd
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Nephi 2nd 3rd Nephi and that's right. That's right You know like 2nd Nephi 25 is one of the started running into some of those things
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And so I didn't finish the whole thing, but I got enough to at least bring up to them You for instance 2nd
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Nephi 25 is the grace, you know after all we've done so and a couple of the things like the the cross of Christ being
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Written about in 600 BC, which you know crucifixion wasn't invented that popped up to me things like elephants things like so My assumption though is is you would take the position that all the archaeology stuff not real
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Helpful just because No, I think I think that that's that's quite relevant if you're really ready to engage it.
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The problem is these young men themselves have been given a whole lot of Questionable material based upon farms the foundation for ancient research of Mormon studies, which actually that's not even their name anymore
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They they they've now been sort of absorbed into BYU, but it's a their apologists crank out books
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Attempting to provide answers to the glaring problems of the anachronisms in the
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Book of Mormon Issues of archaeology and things like that. So if you're going to go there you really need to know your stuff because They're gonna they're basically gonna say well, you know, what about this?
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What about that and they have their answers? And if all we've got is just a very surface level understanding of where our objection is now we got a problem
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Because we're gonna be telling them they shouldn't be offering surface level objections to the Christian faith So we need to be need to be careful at that point.
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So it's possible to go there. It's not the first place I go Um, but interestingly enough one of the more
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I guess I would have to identify it as obviously supernatural experiences that I have had in witnessing the
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Mormons was outside the north gate of the temple in Salt Lake City one day a guy came up to me and Engaged me in conversation.
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And like I said, that's not no normally normally I don't immediately go to the issue of archaeology in the
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Book of Mormon Anthropology in the Nephites and Lamanites and so on and so forth now that I haven't read extensively on it
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I had but it's just not my first area to go but I felt a very strong impression that that's what
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I needed to do and so I did and It ended up turning out that this gentleman was a student of Anthropology and so it was exactly where I needed to go to get his attention.
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So I'm not saying that that isn't where a person should go It's just you really need to have a decent background in it to be able to make a go of it
39:31
Right. Yeah, and that's that's where I don't feel like I have a solid enough understanding of Another I don't have enough
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Sources that they would accept to to point them to you know, this is this is what objectively is true
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Historically explain to me why why you're not accepting that and so my sort of my push has been
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I want to focus on grace And I want to focus on Some of the some of the some of the larger issues there from from contrasting the biblical perspective to their perspective
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And I met with them a year second time and sort of the conversation Unfortunately didn't stay long on grace.
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They wanted to push towards they started talking about the priesthood. They started talking about intermediate state And so and that's that's been where the bulk of my questions are maybe for you would be is is addressing first Peter 3 first Peter 4 and then addressing maybe the
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Aaronic priesthood and and How that works itself out in Hebrews because my understanding has always been of course that Christ is our high priest and that As Hebrews explains that when the time of Reformation comes, but you know
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All those all those old things are passed away. And now, you know as Peter calls us the priesthood So, um, is there any way you could flesh some of those things out or or how do you address?
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Yeah Well a couple things first of all If you're going to go the direction of gospel and grace first Remember that the the gospel of grace requires the the
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God of Scripture to make any sense and when you have an Exalted man from another planet who himself has been in a fallen state and was dependent upon Some type of gracious help from the pre -existing
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God That really doesn't provide a solid foundation for a real understanding of the biblical message and so I've always argued that while one of the goals that we have is to present a clear presentation of the gospel that especially for Mormons that has to be coupled with a
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Presentation of who the one true God is because they're so fundamentally flawed it at that most foundational point
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And so I would I would emphasize that if we have if we haven't established that then the conversation does tend to Cover a lot of ground that it may not really need to be covering in regards to the intermediate state
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The priesthood subject though is actually one that we have started conversations with we have a track called.
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Are you an Aaronic priest? I think there's got is there there's got to be at least a couple hiding someplace in a box
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Mr.. Pierce, don't you think are you an Aaronic priest? There's got to be some over there in the dark recesses.
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Maybe we can get one to Kyle But do you have is the Mormon my do you have letters to a
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Mormon elder? No, and in fact that that was one of the things I was I was very tempted to order that and then give that on Our departing, you know whenever they decide that this whole meeting thing is over So hopefully
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I'll take it as long as they'll allow me to speak and and when they're when they're done with me I'd love to give them that as a gift at the departing gift, right?
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Well, yeah In fact, I've had more missionaries fight over who got to the one copy that I had with me.
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So it was really oh, yeah Yeah, especially because the the older edition which is now the newer edition again
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The cover I designed I'd go through it and show how it was all relevant to Mormon missionaries I had specifically designed it in that way would need to be updated
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I think today to use the same tracks they're using but it still recognized most of the stuff on it and In it,
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I go through each of those areas and how I would present it and yeah, I just I see a couple copies the studio audience just snagged a few copies of the the tract on the priesthood so Maybe you could get hold of rich later today and an order is more my brother and we'll throw in some of the
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Erotic priesthood tracks, but I cover in the book as well because it is an excellent approach
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Very few Mormons know anything about the priesthood and they're almost never ever
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Challenged on the subject of the priesthood because most Christians don't know anything about it either
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And as you mentioned in the book of Hebrews Yeah, well, you know, there's something about the priesthood in Hebrews, but you know, you got this
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Melchizedek guy We don't know much about Melchizedek and etc. It's error So it does take some some discussion some well some study on your part to be able to discuss it meaningfully but there's an entire chapter on the subject and Is the more of my brother?
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I'm sorry. I keep saying that but it's letters to a Mormon elder I've written two books on the subject And so it's a good approach because they do claim that the priesthood is really what sets them apart from others
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But it is, you know, basically what I would say to a Mormon elder is so you hold the
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Melchizedek priesthood Yes, I hold the Melchizedek priesthood Are you able to save the uttermost those who draw nigh unto
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God by you and they they go what? Well, the Melchizedek priest according Hebrews chapter 7 is able to save the uttermost those who draw nigh unto
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God by you by him Seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. So that's the the very role of the
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Melchizedek priest. Is that what you can do? well and Normally at that point what you get is well, we have latter -day revelation to which
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I immediately stopped him and say well, but The Book of Mormon says nothing about your priesthood does it?
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The Book of Mormon knew nothing about this. In fact, the the reality is that the concept of Mormon priesthoods Developed between 1833 and 1835.
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That's why section 84 the Doctrine and Covenants has over 400 words added or deleted from it That introduced the entire topic of the priesthood because when the
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Mormon Church was founded in 1830 Joseph Smith had not yet developed the concept of the priesthood which causes you a problem because the modern theory is that the church has to Have the priesthood to be found in the first place, which
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Joseph Smith was not claiming to have had in 1830 when it was originally founded but again
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Those are those are great approaches But they require the ability to then, you know back those things up to be able to Go the 1833
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Book of Commandments and show where the all the additions and subtractions, you know, I carry a little I'm not sure.
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I have it in here right now. I've got my big trip my big quad Do you have like a triple or a
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Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants for a great price? All I have is the Book of Mormon. That's all they gave me which is funny because that doesn't have anything about being a polytheist
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It doesn't have anything about Jesus being a priest. I mean, it just seems like they weren't being very upfront about it You know something
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I had to ask about It is you know, just pray over it just pray over it and we'll explain the rest later
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Well Kyle, I don't know what your financial situation is, but I can guarantee you
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If you were to find your local LDS bookstore, and they're probably you're in you're in, Illinois there
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I don't know where one would be you you could use Amazon if you had to but if you could purchase a
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Triple combination and and go ahead and get a nice one If you're gonna study these things want to be prepared to deal these folks I have seen
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Mormons stick around a whole lot longer because I had a a real copy of their scriptures that I had read and marked
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It's if you I mean these guys may never come back again The next time they show up it might be a different pair
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It might be one of the same to another guy gone You don't know but if you really want to have a heart for these folks and and it's difficult for me not to have a heart for these young Guys when you see them out there doing what they're doing
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Then having some meaningful materials And investing a little something and having that there does make a big difference because hey when someone approaches me
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And has objections to my faith and can demonstrate that they're not just giving me a knee -jerk reaction
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But they actually have put at least some thought into what they're saying That makes it you know that makes me much more willing to defend my faith and to invest time in them than the person who's just Watched a
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Richard Dawkins video and is just spewing out. You know acidic hatred like Richard Dawkins does
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We got to realize the Mormons are the same way and when we invest our time you know
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I'd read third Nephi which is which is what contains the story of Jesus coming and What that allows you to do is instead of reading the entirety of the
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Book of Mormon which Mark Twain described as chloroform in print It can be difficult to get through It at least allows you to go well, here's where Jesus came and established his church in the
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Americas and It's really interesting that right before Jesus comes to proclaim the gospel.
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What does God do, but he destroys all the sinners? Aren't though those those the ones that need to hear the message of Jesus in the first place
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I'm sorry Well Jesus saying I came not for the righteous ones, but this you know the sinners that need a position exactly and yet in the
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Book of Mormon it Reverses that and of course that's also relevant to the fact that when
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Joseph Smith came up with his own translation of the Bible When he encountered the phrase in Romans that God is one who justifies the ungodly
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He changed that to does not justify the ungodly He turned it upside down because he didn't understand grace.
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He never understood grace I mean you saw that in second Nephi 25 23 even stronger in Moroni chapter 10
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You will find not only the section there of praying about things But you'll also find the section in verse 23 that talks about ridding yourself of all ungodliness
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If you will love God completely and rid yourself of all ungodliness, then is the grace of Christ sufficient for you
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Well, if you could love God perfectly and rid yourself of all ungodliness without the grace of Christ Then why do you need it in the first place?
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I mean, it's it's Joseph Smith never ever understood the Christian Gospel never
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It's very very clear So there's all sorts of resources you can go to there, but you're right the
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Doctrine comes pro great price has the most Shall we say meaty doctrine to dig into especially the book of Abraham?
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So you really want to get hold of the the triple combination Book of Mormon documents for your price
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It's really just a basic Level piece of it's a tool that you need to have to to to speak with the
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Mormons. No question about it Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't be difficult to do it and they might find that interesting now some some
49:50
Mormons Run for the hills At that it looks like you're studying.
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Oh, I'm gonna run but I would say it'd be an 80 -20 split there I think 80 % would be oh, well, that's encouraging.
50:02
That's interesting that you're looking at that 20 % like I'm out of here type of thing But a lot of it really really depends on how clearly you communicate to them your own desire
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To really have a good conversation with them because you really do care about them They can tell they can tell when someone really cares about them or when someone's just simply trying to quote -unquote win a win an argument and so I would you know pray that the
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Before your meeting with them Lord Make sure these young men understand that I really do care about them
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The reason I'm talking to them about this is because these are eternal matters. They really really matter Be willing to lay your heart out there they may stomp on it, but that's
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Really the only way to way to do it focus upon the big things who God is who Christ is what salvation is
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The priesthood issue is a good direction, but remember to avoid Sort of what you seem to seem to indicate happened a little bit in your conversation
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You need to have a goal going into the conversation and then any
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Subject that comes up that isn't part of that sort of view it as a as a brief detour
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But always be looking for a way to get back on to the freeway that leads to your goal in that conversation if you don't have a goal you're gonna wander around from topic to topic to topic and never really feel like you've accomplished anything because the way they think they're gonna be moving from topic to topic to topic unless you can control it in that way and Having that goal and wine to get those those places is the best way to do it so if you can get whole letters to Mormon Ella that's going to help out a lot with the the priesthood issue with avoiding traps like getting stuck in baptism for the dead or side issues that just just You can get into them
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But you really need to have had laid a foundation before you get there those are frequently areas and end up in Dead ends and conversations with the missionaries.
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Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. All right one quick last question here They keep I mean one of the big thing is they just want you to pray over I just want you to pray over and I've not done that and I told him the reason that I'm trying to try the spirits
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I'm testing their claim to you know authority by my claim to authority and so So anyway, what would you?
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Kind of I shuffled around with the idea of even Praying over and I My assumption was you would say no from the standpoint of don't even entertain that the thought of Moving that direction, but what would you say to that as far as well?
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There's there's an entire chapter the very first chapter in letters to a Mormon elder is on that exact subject
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One of the things you can immediately say is however your own scriptures say in Deuteronomy Deuteronomy Doctrine and Covenants 9 verse 8
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But behold I say unto you that you must study it out in your mind Then you must ask me if it be right if it is right
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I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you therefore you shall feel that it is right So there has to be a studying out of it first And then that allows you to go and here are some of the things
53:10
I've encountered in my studies Can you please explain these things before I I do this even in accordance with your own scriptures?
53:17
and then you can you can present all these contradictions between the the teachings of the
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Book of Mormon and And the Bible the changes in the Book of Mormon archaeology, but there's all sorts of places you can go at that point and used
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Doctrine Covenants 9 verse 8 to say you seem to be trying to rush me past this your own text says that I must study it out first and then ask
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Which would imply that if I study things and I find contradictions I first need to find the answers before I ask
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So that would be another way to go now what I present in letters from Mormon Elder is a biblical epistemology
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It says you don't determine what's true by what you feel. Anyways, that's the important thing to establish with them.
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Okay, right Okay, very much. Really appreciate it No, I'll try to get a hold of a doctrine in Kevin's book and that way
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I can see these things and point to him Alright, thanks Kyle. I appreciate it. I got a lot of stuff.
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All right. Let's only got a few minutes left in the program here Let's talk with David in Chicago. Hi David. Hi, Dr.
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White. Yes, sir. I just want to say that I love the Trinity. Thanks for the book But I was reading another book on the
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Council and I see up when Jesus became God by Richard E Rubenstein Other than feeling actually really sorry for Constantine It was kind of funny because I was reading about the doctor on the doctrine of areas and because I read your book
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I was Able to answer in my head all the all the objections or the contradictions that the areas doctrine brought up.
54:45
Mm -hmm But with that aside, I just have a question because in this book and I heard this before regarding the great schism
54:53
When they added the Holy Spirit, I guess to the doctrine of I mean, sorry to the Council of Nicaea. They had another council
54:59
Well, yeah, let me explain what you're what you're referring to here now first of all the the other book you're reading
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You realize that's not exactly from a Christian perspective Yeah, well you sort of mentioned it in passing well and remember
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I would check anything that you read there by Schaff and some of the the more recognized historical sources as far as that book is concerned, but secondly in regards to The filial clause
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That is a a Western later addition to the Nicene symbol that insists that the
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Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son that's what the both and and the
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Son is the filial clause and That is one of the major distinctions between Eastern and Western branches is
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The assertion that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son in Eastern Orthodoxy it is from the
55:56
Father alone, right? Okay. Well that leads me on to my question Please don't miss and miss miss read too much into my lack of understanding to ask the question
56:05
But where does where do we Protestants stand on that? I guess Mass vast majority
56:12
Protestants haven't a clue what we're talking about. So Let's let's face it the vast majority of Protestants and Roman Catholics these days are not even functionally
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Trinitarian. They're modalistic so the whole the whole idea is irrelevant, but to my knowledge,
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I am unaware of any official Protestant denomination back at least when all of them cared about such things
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And those that today continue to care about systematic theology. I'm unaware of any Protestant denomination
56:41
That does not accept the assertion that the procession of the Spirit is from both the
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Father and the Son I Could be wrong about that, but I would think I would have heard of some
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Protestant domination and said, oh by the way We agree with the Eastern Orthodox in limiting procession
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Solely as something that relates to the Father and the Spirit without the Son you know
57:07
It's it's somewhat of a shame that that people have killed over that particular issue
57:13
I Think it's an interesting issue to debate But I I would never send somebody off to the the flames of hell over it though Unfortunately that did happen in church history many many times but it is it all really boils down to how you identify the divine persons and whether procession is
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Something that is is limited solely to the identification of the Father as a person or whether it is something that is done jointly by the
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Father and the Son in light of Jesus statement that he and the Father would send the Holy Spirit that that's really what it all boils down to and I I I Think is
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I'm not missing the historical reality here that in that truthfully
57:55
There were a lot of other issues that were much more central to the split Then that that just gave a theological bent to it, okay, okay, all right, thanks,
58:07
David Alrighty well there is a wide variety of subjects yet once again from the
58:16
Dar al -harb to Mormonism the priesthood the triple combination and The procession
58:25
Arguments in regards to the Trinity there we go. That's why it's called the dividing line.
58:30
Thanks for listening today Lord Well, and we'll see you on Thursday. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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