July 31, 2017 Show with Dr. Stan Gale on “The Prayer of Jehoshaphat: Seeing Beyond Life’s Storms” AND “The Writing Pastor”

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this very last day of July, July 31st, 2017 and I am delighted to have as a returning guest today someone who is certainly one of my favorite guests,

Dr. Stanley D. Gale. He is pastor of discipleship at Ironworks Church of Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, which is a congregation within the

Presbyterian Church in America. He's also the author of What is Spiritual Warfare and Why Do We Pray, and he's founder and director of Community Houses of Prayer.

Today we are discussing one of his books, The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms, and during the second hour we're going to be addressing the theme,

The Writing Pastor. For all of you pastors out there who are either aspiring authors or you already are an author, or at least have written things that have yet to be published, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Stanley D. Gale. Well, Chris, it is very good to be back and enjoy our time together and look forward to the time ahead.

I do as well, and in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello once again, it's good to be on. Who is also an aspiring author and has a book in the works actually right now on eschatology.

That's correct. Why don't you briefly, before we even go into our topic for the first hour,

Reverend Buzz, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the book that you're working on. Well, it's a much bigger undertaking than I expected it to be.

I guess anybody who's written would probably say the same thing, but it started as a series of lectures years ago, and I just kept adding to it and adding to it, and I finally decided, well, this needs to get out, so I'm putting it in book form, but I'm still in the process of expanding it because there's a lot more research to do, and it's,

I'd like, I'm making good progress, but there's so much to do that I have no idea when it's going to be finished.

So, in other words, when this book actually goes out in print, Jesus will have returned, or the book cover will say, in loving memory of the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. I'll have to change all the dates that I said in it. But, well, we will have updates,

God willing, in the weeks, months, and possibly years to come. Well, I have a goal, so I mean,

I'm definitely, I want to finish it this year. Alrighty, well, the first hour is on a topic that is something that will obviously be of meaning to anybody, whether they're a

Christian or not a Christian, who may be listening to this program, and that is seeing beyond life's storms.

The actual title is The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, and before we even go into that title and that theme, what was the catalyst that led you to write this book?

I'm assuming, I have a sneaky suspicion that it may have been that you wanted to give a biblically orthodox response to the

Prayer of Jabez, but I might be wrong. Well, actually, it did come out a little after the

Prayer of Jabez, and it seemed like I was kind of riding on that coattail, but it wasn't my intention at all.

In fact, when we write a book, it's always tricky to find a title, something that grabs, and there's a relationship between the title and the subtitle, and often in the subtitle, it gets to what the book's about, and the title grabs you.

But no, it actually wasn't a response to the Prayer of Jabez. I thought that was very curious, that book, and the approach that it took, but no, mine, in fact, all my books, they come out of a pastoral concern.

So here I walk with people in their trenches of, you know, the miseries of life, the joys, the challenges, and try to minister to them through the

Word of God and prayer, and as I do that, sometimes I'll turn it into a book mainly to help me.

In fact, this book has been useful, the Prayer of Jehoshaphat has been helpful I've actually used it directly in counseling to help people to process, process pain, process trials, process the storms of their lives, and beginning with the perspective and what they can expect on the other end of the trial.

So it's been, I found it very helpful, and in fact, I've gotten some, you know, one of the fun things about being an author and having your name out there, of course, there are problems, but you get, you're open, you're subjecting yourself to criticism, but often you'll get responses from people saying how they were blessed by it, and that is, that is honey to a pastor's soul, to an author's soul, to hear the

Lord has used that in someone's life to bring them closer to Jesus Christ and help them to bear up under the trial.

You know, something just occurred to me, brother, that I never noticed before, I don't know if anybody ever has told you this, but you sound somewhat like Tom Brokaw.

I have heard that before. I was teaching in Belgium one time, and then evidently that was the consensus of all the missionaries over there, that I was

Tom Brokaw with them. In fact, I would love it if sometime you could record a little segment for, that I could air throughout my broadcast from time to time saying, this is

Tom Brokaw, and you're listening to Iron Radio. I don't know if that would be good or bad for my audience, but I'm going to give our audience our email address right now.

It is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

if you have a question for Dr. Stanley D. Gale. If you are asking about the writing pastor, if you could put that in the subject line so we can make sure that we know to save that for the second hour of the program.

But ChrisArnzen at gmail .com is our email address if you have a question about seeing beyond life storms, and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And this topic automatically lends itself to the possibility of people asking about personal and private matters that would compel them not to identify themselves, and I understand that, and you may remain anonymous if such is the case.

But if that's not the case, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence. I want to read the prayer of Jehoshaphat, and then you can give us the context in which this prayer was said.

And the prayer is found in 2 Chronicles 20 verses 6 through 13.

O Lord, the God of our fathers, are you not God in the heavens? And are you not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations?

Power and might are in your hands so that no one can stand against you. Did you not,

O our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it to the descendants of Abraham, your friend forever?

They have lived in it and have built you a sanctuary there for your name, saying,

Should evil come upon us, the sword or judgment or pestilence or famine, we will stand before this house and before you, for your name is in this house, and cry to you in our distress, and you will hear and deliver us.

Now behold the sons of Ammon and Moab and Mount Seir, whom you did not let

Israel invade when they came out of the land of Egypt. They turned aside from them and did not destroy them.

See how they are rewarding us by coming to drive us out from your possession, which you have given us as an inheritance.

O our God, will you not judge them? For we are powerless before this great multitude who are coming against us, nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on you."

If you could give us the context surrounding that very powerful prayer.

Well, Jehoshaphat was one of the kings of Judah, the southern kingdom.

He was one of the good guys. There are two, and I think there are 20 kings of the southern kingdom, all from the line of David.

And there were two stellar kings, Hezekiah and Josiah, and they were stellar because they removed the high places.

And so that worship was to be in Jerusalem, where God had built his temple and caused his name to dwell.

But there were a number of bad kings, but there were good kings like Jehoshaphat.

And what I describe as obituary from scripture in the book, and it's a very laudable obituary saying that all the good that he had done, his only fault, particularly his fault was not removing the high places, unlike Hezekiah and Josiah.

But anyway, he was a good leader, a little suspect in a couple of places with his alliances.

You wonder why he did what he did, but he had a heart for God, and he was a leader for God.

And the context is this coalition of nations coming against him, and you don't even need to know the geography of the land because you get the idea that there's a mob, there's this huge horde of people, and they are at the doorstep.

And so the scriptures direct us to this threat, and then the scriptures turn and bring the camera around to face

Jehoshaphat. And the question is, how will this godly king handle this?

How will he lead the people? What will he do? And it's from that that chapter 20 unfolds, and really in directing us in what is a

God -centered approach to dealing with trials in life, even some of these things that seem so insurmountable and impossible for us.

Now, I'm assuming that you are applying the lessons learned from this story, this historical account in 2

Chronicles. You are desiring that listeners in the 21st century and readers in the 21st century apply these lessons to their lives today.

Before we give you some time to give us those applications to everyday life when those of our listeners are facing what seem to be insurmountable trials, and so not only as individuals, but as groups, as families, as churches, as nations, do we not need to be very cautious when we apply biblical stories to our own lives, to current events that are surrounding us?

Not that there aren't lessons to be learned in nearly every page in the scripture for what we are going through today, personally or nationally, but sometimes people misapply stories in the scriptures, historical accounts, and they come up with all kinds of bizarre conclusions when they do that, sometimes eschatologically or sometimes just they develop sometimes even heretical ideas.

Sometimes people will view the United States of America with the same kinds of blessings promised to the nation of Israel, or even the current -day nation of Israel in the

Middle East, they will make it synonymous with the Israel that existed in the Old Covenant and so on.

If you could just give us some words of caution if you believe that that is indeed the case, if you agree with what

I'm saying. Well, that's a good word of warning, and it really deals with how to handle the word of God, and are there direct connections and all that.

The parajoshaphat is very much on a personal level helping the one process, but as we look at joshaphat, there are certain things that are parallel.

There's a godly leader, the god of the joshaphat is the same as our god and the god of our children, and there's a relationship there.

In fact, part of the book deals with this whole covenant relationship, why joshaphat even would be inclined to approach

God in this way, and why he would think that God would listen to him, like a right of access kind of thing.

Also, I'm not thinking in terms of any kind of parallel. I'm not one to have the newspaper in one hand and the

Bible in the other and look for some of these parallels, but what I do say is that the scriptures are all understood in terms of God's redemption, his relationship with his people, and particularly if that comes to a focus in Jesus Christ.

Joshaphat, his name itself means the Lord judges, and so ultimately, while there are applications in terms of our redemptive relationship with God, in terms of the enemy that's coming against us, and God standing in the breach to address that enemy in the personal work of Jesus Christ, and where we have deliverance only because Jesus intervened for us.

And so that is the ultimate horizon of all of scripture, that the scriptures speak of Christ, and we don't want to do as the

Jews of the New Testament said, Jesus said, you know, these scriptures speak of me, but basically you ignore them or you distort them.

But there are certain things where we can make parallels, because God is the same.

Sometimes you'll hear the God of the Old Testament, the God of judgment, and the God of the New Testament, the God of love, but there's one

God, and so this is the God that we address, and this is the God who speaks to us, and the God that we explore, and we see his grace and his wisdom spread throughout the pages of scripture, and we always need to have that proper, you know, redemptive historical and grammatical exegesis so we understand the scriptures properly.

But in terms of the improper parallels, people do seem to take the scriptures and push them whatever way that they want to go, and that is very unhealthy and unprofitable, and actually it can lead to heretical teachings, because invariably we pick what we want to the exclusion of stuff we don't like.

Yeah, and very often people seem to thrive on the notion that they can apply biblical accounts to current events, stories on the news, because it keeps them excited, and in their minds this is the way we prove to the world that the scriptures are indeed true and inerrant, and they feel excited that they are involved in the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, so they think, by running to a headline in the news and basically applying it to something, to some scriptural account, and of course that has been going on for centuries, and even in the current past two centuries, the 20th century and the one that we're in now, you know, you had

Hitler and so on, if anybody would seem to be fulfilling some kind of a biblical prophecy of the

Antichrist or something like that, or the Beast of Revelation, you might immediately think, wow, who else could it be?

It must be Hitler, look what he's doing, or look what he has done, and so on. But that thing can go on and on, and that is an unfortunate fact that people seem to thrive on that as a necessity to believe in the inerrancy of scriptures, isn't it?

Well, it sounds to me like these are questions better suited for Buzz when he comes out with his book.

That is not my approach, I don't think it's biblical, and I don't go there at all,

I try to handle the word of God accurately, with the full counsel of God, and bring these things to bear through the various filters that I think sound biblical interpretation brings us.

It leaves too many unanswered questions, too, because if I'm supposed to interpret the Bible by the news, I don't know if it's

Fox or CNN. Well, I think it involves both, because the

Bible does say, and even now you have many antichrists among you. But anyway, if you could apply some of the lessons to be learned from this story of Jehoshaphat that we can rightly apply to our own lives when we are going through trials, and as you have even given the subtitle to your book,

Seeing Beyond Life's Storms. How can we see beyond life's storms using this chapter of the scriptures in 2

Chronicles as a guideline? Well, I can try and summarize that.

James, in his epistle, says to consider it all joy when you encounter trials of various kinds, my brothers, because you know.

All right, so that says that in order for these trials to be fruitful in our lives, for the accomplishment of God's purposes, we need to apply what we know.

So the prayer of Jehoshaphat basically takes what we know about God, and about His purpose, and things like that, to process trials for His glory and our good.

So one of the illustrations that I have to begin with is, you've flown, and most of us have flown, and we take off, and it's raining, and the rain is pelting the tarmac, and we thought, well, how wise is this to be taken off?

But we do, in the plane, and this big old thing gets off the ground, and it goes up into the rain, into the dark clouds, but then it breaks through, and we see that even though we could not see the sun, we could not see the blue sky, so often trials obscure our view of God, but He's there, and He's not only there passively,

He's there as the God who orders all things according to His purpose. The trial that has come to our lives has come to us extended by His hand for its purpose, and so we remind these things, and help us to get a handle, because sometimes when we're in trials, it feels like something's out of control in our lives, and we need to remind ourselves to be still, and to know that He is

God, and He is exalted among the nations, exalted over the earth, and to get our bearings in the midst of trials, so that we see

God through them and in them. I'm going to start taking some of our listener questions now.

Let's see here, we have John in Simsbury, Connecticut, and I have to enlarge

John's font on his email, because it's microscopic, and let's see here,

John says, how do we discern the difference from spiritual warfare and the problems we create for ourselves?

That's John in Simsbury, Connecticut. Well, the problems that we encounter, and that many that we do create for ourselves, or that come to us, and we make them worse, and we complicate things, there is a spiritual warfare element to everything, to life, because our enemy, the devil, is always luring us away from the gospel, luring us away from Jesus Christ, to self -glory and self -dependency.

It's interesting, the word trial itself in the New Testament, in the Greek, it can be translated one of two ways, either trial or temptation.

And I think that the Spirit used that word with great purpose, because it reminds us of this, that God, the sovereign

God, whose providence governs all things, you know, every joy or trial, fall from above,

Christ upon his dial, by the Son of Love, God brings these to our lives for his purpose of conforming us to Christ, growing us in dependence upon God, seeing his glory, and knowing the strength of his everlasting arms.

So, the trials in our lives come to us for a profit, profitable things.

But Satan is there, and he's there as our tempter, and our enemy, because he's the enemy of Christ. And what he wants to do, is he wants to turn those trials on their head, to tempt us to sin, to tempt us to flee from God, to tempt us to shake our fist at God, saying, why did you bring this in my life?

You know, what kind of God are you? Are you good? Are you strong? And so, Satan uses these trials for our spiritual detriment.

God's intention is for our spiritual development. And so, everything that we face, there is that spiritual warfare aspect.

And let me give you just the biblical worldview here. In Galatian, I'm sorry, in Genesis 1 and 2,

God created everything, the eternal existence. Uncreated God created everything. It was good.

We have the fall in Genesis 3. And then in Genesis 4, we see what life is like on this side of the fall.

And the story of Cain and Abel is kind of a case study for what life will be like on this side of the fall.

And we see it's a mess. And we see that we see

God's warning in Genesis 3, I'm sorry, where God speaks to Cain in Genesis 4, after Cain has, he's all upset because God rejected his sacrifice.

Because it was a sacrifice, one, that was not of faith. And two, he did not bring his best because it was not of faith.

But God says this to Cain, if you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up?

But if you do not do well, sin is crouching at your door and his desire is for you, but you must master it.

And we live on the same side of the fall as do Cain and Abel. And we need to know that enemy, the enemy of our souls, is ready at the door to pounce.

And we need to, as part of our worldview, and of course, ultimately our mastery of that enemy is through Jesus Christ, who came to destroy the works of the devil, and in whom we stand to find our strength.

Amen. Well, thank you, John, for an excellent question. And thank you also for providing us your mailing address in Simsbury, Connecticut, where we are going to be mailing you a free copy of the book that we are discussing for the first hour,

The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms, by our guest, Dr. Stanley D.

Gale, compliments of PNR Publishing, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll be shipping that out to you. So keep your eye open for a package that says CVBBS .com

in the return address section of the shipping label. That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

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Iron Sherpins Iron Radio ever since we first launched here in Carlisle, or relaunched,

I should say, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And we also thank Bryce Craig and our friends at PNR Publishing for faithfully supplying us with books every time we interview one of their authors.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter. And we will get to as many of you who are already waiting to have your questions asked and answered, as time permits,

God willing. And so don't go away. We are going to be right back with Dr.

Stanley DeGale and more of Seeing Beyond Life's Storms.

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

Dr. Stanley D. Gale, pastor of discipleship at Ironworks Church of Phoenixville, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing his book for the first hour, The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms.

During the second hour, we will address the theme, The Writing Pastor. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

If you are writing about The Writing Pastor, please put that in the subject line so we can save that question for the second hour of our program.

And once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We have Daniel in San Jose, California, and his question is, can you ask

Dr. Gale to explain the severity of a healthy prayer life as well as where our minds need to be focused before we pray?

Not just praying so nonchalantly. And then he has a second question that I will address after you address the first one.

Okay, well that is an important question, but a very broad question. A lot can go into that answer.

One of the things that I always stress in prayer is what

I call making eye contact with God. It's so easy for us just to turn to God without appreciating who it is, whose presence we're coming into, why it is that we're able to come.

For example, even saying in the name of Jesus, we want that to begin our prayers, not just to be a prelude to an amen.

We want to recognize what is the privilege that we have, the access to the throne of grace as God, this sovereign

God, for whom nothing is impossible, to whom all wisdom dwells. He extends that scepter of access to us so that we can come without fear and with great joy and with great expectation into the throne of grace.

So prayer is, we don't want to just think of saying prayers. We want to think of communing with God, and there's a multifaceted richness to prayer life that I think can best be learned in the

Psalms, because the Psalms give these extraordinary pictures of God, names.

You know, he determines the number of stars and calls them each by name, and all these things that enrich and expand our view of God.

And they teach us how to pray, and with praise and confession, lament, thanksgiving, just all sorts of things.

So there's a richness that can be gleaned from knowing the Psalms and making this part of our prayer vocabulary.

And the second question that we have from Daniel in San Jose, California is, let's see,

I lost it here. Oh, here it is. We often pray for the things we think we need in life, but shouldn't we be praying for God's will to be done in our lives first, namely pursuing holiness, growing in a wider and deeper love for Christ?

Well, I'm not sure it's a first, but that certainly needs to be part of our prayer lives. Our prayer lives tend to be rather meager or anemic when you look at some of the prayers in Ephesians 1,

Ephesians 3, Colossians 1, Philippians 1, that stretch our prayer.

In fact, just to look at one of the prayers that you see in Ephesians is, it's a prayer that we would know what is the extent of the love of God for us in Christ, what is the height and the breadth and the depth and the width of that love.

Already there, it's rocking our minds because he says we need to pray, basically he said we would know the unknowable.

And what it reminds me of is one of these Star Trek things, I'm not a big Star Trek person, but they had this, the old

William Shatner show, they had this exploring the end of the universe, and it says when we explore it, when we look to explore the unknown, to know the unknowable, it says we're never going to reach the end.

We're never going to be able to exhaust our study and our appreciation of this love of God in Christ.

In fact, even to speak of it in terms of four dimensions instead of three, shakes us and says this is something that is remarkable, that is extraordinary for me and Jesus Christ to have this love and to have it as part of this expedition of life.

And to have our prayer with that kind of goal and animated with that cause of knowing

God's love for us in Christ is something that's truly rich and remarkable. Now we don't, let me mention one other thing about prayer.

Often we pray for a sick list kind of prayer, and that is important.

We need to pray for, we need to, it's one of the ways we bear one another's burdens, is we need to pray for their needs, we need to pray for our own needs, and of course it's always with a proviso, not my will but your will be done as we pray in the name of Jesus, which is why it's good even to begin a prayer that way.

But we also need to pray for the advancement of Christ's kingdom.

God has given us prayer as a weapon, and the church needs to be mobilized to seek

God. In fact, I think it's Isaiah 62, it says, give God no rest until he makes

Jerusalem a praise in all the earth. In other words, where he has set his name to dwell. Give God no rest.

And so the whole idea, he's saying that, I want you to be importunate, that's the term that I think Jonathan Edwards used in people, is that day, importunate, be urgent, be insistent, crying out to God, and Jesus taught that too in the parable of the persistent widow.

We need to continue to pray and to pursue God, and so prayer is no light matter.

It is a privilege, but it is a responsibility in the Christian life and God's design.

Amen. And I don't know if you would agree with me, Dr. Gale, but I might want to highly recommend to our listeners, and perhaps even specifically the listener that wrote the question, a book called

The Valley of Vision, A Collection of Puritan Prayers and Devotions by Arthur Bennett, which is published by the

Banner of Truth, and I don't believe that Christians should ever mechanically and artificially recite prayers, even the prayer that is known as the

Lord's Prayer, or lesser known as the Disciple's Prayer, the

Our Father, as it's probably most commonly known, of people, especially those of people in like, for instance, the

Roman Catholic Church and perhaps some of the more liturgical Protestant churches very often recite that prayer like the prayer of the pagans and repetitiously without meaning, without even thought to what the words are.

So I'm not suggesting that you would use a book like The Valley of Vision in that manner, but don't you think that a book like that might help educate people what they may or what they should include in their prayers, basically kind of like a blueprint to move on from there after you've learned what other great folks, great brothers and sisters in Christ have prayed in the past?

The Valley of Vision is excellent. You're exposed to a wide variety of prayers, and it's filled with this earnestness for the glory of God, and another book that I would commend is

A Method for Prayer by Matthew Henry, which is scripture -rich.

It's just filled with the Word of God as he leads you, and Opama Robertson has a version of that called

A Simple Way to Pray, where he's organized it and put it into easier language, and it's a wonderful resource.

There are a number of resources out there like that, but you know, Valley of Vision, Matthew Henry's book on prayer and others are excellent tools to help us to pray.

One of the things I, you know, sometimes it's so, like, we're talking about trials with the

Prayer of Jehoshaphat, and sometimes we are such, we're gripped by trials in such a way, you know, with the death of a child or some horrific thing in our lives, we find it hard to pray.

Now, the Psalms can be helpful in that time, as well as these other resources, but I think that a prayer,

I think corporate prayer, is a help, where we others pray for us, and we can say the

Amen in our heart, and we need words. We need people pray for these things, and then we can, they kind of capture our hearts and lead them to the throne of grace, and there's great benefit in leading one another in corporate prayer.

And while I would not want to accuse our listener who asked the question, Daniel in, say,

San Jose, California, of this, but there could be people that want to appear to be pious and say that our prayer should only be involving our praying for more holiness and deeper love for Christ, and neglect the fact that we should be certainly praying for every one of our needs, and that our needs are not trivial in the eyes or ears of God, or in the mind and heart of God, that there is nothing wrong with approaching

Him for our personal physical needs, our monetary needs, and the needs that are involved in our emotions, and when we're going through depression, and all kinds of things.

Isn't that a genuine part of our daily prayer life?

I certainly think so. I appreciate Daniel's question, because praying for the needs, our own needs, and others, we tend to know that, and we tend to neglect the other aspect, and both are legitimate, and both are important.

Back with one of the aspects of the prayer of Jehoshaphat that I get into, is when it comes to trials, often what we will do is we will pray that the trial will be over, or we'll pray that we will be able to get through the trial.

So we're not praying with any sense of expectation. We don't pray remembering that this trial has come to us from the hand of our

God, and His purpose accompanies it. And one of the things to get into toward the end of the prayer of Jehoshaphat, is after the enemy is defeated, they return to the battlefield, and they collect the spoil.

Well, that spoil is something that God brings us to in our lives, in the trials.

And the example that I use is, I grew up in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, and that's a summer resort, and right now it's teeming with people,

I imagine. But I grew up there, and it was during the off -season, it's a ghost town.

So it's a Jekyll and Hyde kind of place, teeming with people, or empty. So when

I grew up there, the ocean was pretty ordinary to me.

But when it would really get exciting, would be with a hurricane, or a nor 'easter that would come and park itself over, and the sea would be royal.

And then you'd go down after a nor 'easter, and the beach would be littered with stuff from the sea.

You know, shells, and wood, and just all kinds of things. And here's the thing, those things, that all that stuff spread on the shore, would not have been there had it not been for the storm.

The same way with our lives. The things, the trials, show things in our lives, they bring to us the blessings of God that would not have come had it not been for the trial.

And often we are in such a hurry to get on beyond the trial, we don't return to the

Lord and say, Lord, what are the things you have taught me? What gospel resistance have you shown me in my own heart?

What things are you pointing out? What have you shown me about yourself?

Questions like that, that really capitalize on this trial that God has brought to our lives.

Amen. Well, Daniel, in San Jose, California, you have won a free copy of The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms, compliments of P &R

Publishing, and also compliments of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

So make sure we have your full mailing address where CVBBS .com can ship that book out to you.

Uh, let's see, we have Joe in Slovenia, who says,

It seems to me that a strong underlying basis for Jehoshaphat's prayer is his settled belief in God's absolute sovereignty.

How should we pray back to God, his promises to us appropriately? And let me pray with a greater, let me read that back,

I should say, with a greater emphasis. How should we pray back to God, his promises to us appropriately?

What would our prayers look like if we prayed in our day based on faith in God's complete sovereignty over all of life?

Thanks for ministering to Christ's body around the world. That's Joe in Slovenia. Well, that's a great question.

I think one of the things that God's knowledge of God's sovereignty brings to the trials, it says that this trial didn't just show up in my life by accident.

It's saying that there is purpose. In fact, trials come to us monogrammed because they are personalized for us where God meets us according to his needs to grow us in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ. And again, to, and to, uh, and to, according to he does not give us more than we can bear.

He helps us, uh, leads us in processing this trial. So if it, if God is sovereign, that means that I'd look at trials in a whole different light.

Like, as I was just saying, they're not something just to be dismissed. There's something to be embraced, something to be embraced in a way because they come by the hand of my father.

You know, when our own fathers discipline us or, uh, discipline, not just in punishment, but, but help, but train us, you know, we want to be attentive.

And so when it comes to trials, if God's sovereign, then we need to be attentive to, uh, to his presence and to how he is, as it work, uh, as it work, uh, through the trial that he's brought to our lives.

So it really, it really revolutionizes a view of trials, uh, just much like, uh, James said, you know, because they're all joy when you encounter trials.

The only way you can do that is to see that God is sovereign and that God is loving and care of his children.

Amen. Uh, well, and by the way, thank you,

Joe in Slovenia, and thank you for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, where we will ship a copy of the book,

The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms, compliments of the publishers, uh,

PNR Publishing, and also compliments of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

And, uh, we have probably one of the most difficult areas in life that anyone could possibly face, uh, involved in a question from Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

What words of encouragement would you offer from the scriptures to someone like myself who has gone through the tragedy of suicide of a close relative who professed

Christ as Savior and Lord? Could you read that again?

What words of encouragement would you offer from the scriptures to someone like myself who has gone through the tragedy of suicide of a close relative who professed

Christ as Savior and Lord? Well, that last part of the question, uh, obviously gives great hope, uh, but obviously there are, there are a lot of controversies involved in someone who is regenerate, uh, committing that act.

But if you could, uh, respond best is to the best of your ability to Gordy's question. Well, that's a, that is a very, very involved question that is kind of a tip of the iceberg of, uh, of all sorts of things feeding into it.

So I, in terms of, uh, I think the encouragement that can be found,

I, it would be wrong to give, uh, to give the encouragement that God intended this for good. God does work all things for good to those who love him.

But what this is showing is this person who committed suicide, they saw themselves without hope.

And that is a tragedy. I don't know what all was going on in that person's life that brought them, brought them to that.

Um, but I, uh, the, the scriptures, one of the things that they do is give us, is give us a great hope.

Now, what, what comfort can Gordy find? And the comfort can only be in the

Lord Jesus Christ who says, I peace, I leave with you my peace. I give to you not as the world gives. Do I give to you?

Let not your heart be troubled. Need let it be afraid. And the call there from the Lord Jesus is to hold fast to me.

You don't need these things. You are inscrutable. We don't understand the why's or the what for the why's or what force are, but we know that there is a

God who does. And we know that there's a God whose purposes will not fail. And that Jesus said,

I will lose none of those the father has given me. And so what we do is we find great comfort in these promises of God that, that remind us of who

God is. One of the things about spiritual warfare, going back to that is your enemy, the devil will, and I've seen people leave, reject

God, leave the church because something like this has happened and they'll shake their fist at God.

But that's not what, uh, that's, that's God's intention is that these things is we recognize that we don't understand and we draw close to him.

Psalm 139 is a Psalm that says that God knows everything. There's his knowledge.

Knowledge is not that bound by space. It's not bound by time. His knowledge is so different from ours because it actually accomplishes things.

But then that David says at the end, search me, Oh God, and know my heart. Try me and know my anxious thoughts.

See what hurtful way there be in me and leave me in everlasting way and think, Lord, I don't know. There's so much

I don't know, but I need you to minister to my heart with all what's going on right now as only you can through the grace of Jesus Christ.

And so that's, that's, uh, that's kind of the best answer I can give without knowing all the understanding what was going on.

But I do know that there is comfort to be had. The comfort is partly involved in contentment with our creatureliness, saying that I don't know.

If I could, one of the beauties of the prayer of Joshua, this is how I latched onto it.

In fact, if you could pick up right where you left off there when we return from our break. I will do that. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Stanley D. Gale. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the

London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect

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And if anybody would like to hear an excellent interview

I conducted on the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program, broadcasting out of WNYG Radio in New York, with Pastor Bill Shishko, who you just heard, promoting his program,

A Visit to the Pastor Study. Pastor Bill and I, among many other things, have discussed the theme of suicide.

In fact, the program of which I speak is an hour -long discussion solely on the issue of a

Christian's response to suicide. So Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, I emailed you a link where you can listen to that one -hour interview on YouTube.

And if anybody else would like to hear that discussion with Pastor Bill Shishko of the

Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, who is currently a domestic missionary with Reformation Metro New York, you can hear that interview.

If you send me an email requesting that YouTube link, I will send it to you.

You can also just look up on YouTube yourself, Bill Shishko, S -H -I -S -H -K -O, suicide, and it will bring you to that discussion,

God willing. And before I return to our discussion with Dr. Stanley D.

Gale, I have some important announcements to make from some of our sponsors. This week, the

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, on the subject of the writing pastor, although we do have a couple of questions left before we conclude our previous subject on seeing beyond life's storms.

But chrisarnson at gmail .com is the email to send questions about the writing pastor, which is our second topic for the day, which we will soon be starting after we conclude, as I said, the previous subject.

Now, if you could, Dr. Gale, pick up right where you left off before we took the break. Okay. Gordy's question and his life situation is,

I would say that the book, The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, was birthed out of that kind of question.

Because I've seen as a pastor, I've been a pastor 30 years, and I've walked through people in difficult times like that.

And one of the things that caught my eye in The Prayer of Jehoshaphat actually is verse 12, which says,

Oh, our God. Remember, they're facing this insurmountable foe.

It was too much for them. Too great. Oh, our God, will you not execute judgment on them?

For we are powerless against this great horde that is coming against us.

We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on you.

And in so many pastoral situations, so many difficulties of life, that's where we are.

We can say that we don't know what to do. We're powerless.

And we don't have the answers, but we know our God. And so we run into his arms and lean upon him and cry out to him.

And it's interesting with that. I was looking through some children's Sunday school material at my church when

I was the pastor in Westchester, Pennsylvania. And I saw this Prayer of Jehoshaphat.

It was just verse 12. And all it was, it said that we are powerless and we don't know what to do and our eyes are upon you, and that was it.

And it actually left out the prayer part. You know, those, for we are powerless, for we do not know what to do, but our eyes are upon you are kind of add -ons to what is the prayer.

And the prayer is, will you not execute judgment? And the whole idea there is that,

Lord, because I'm powerless, because I don't know what to do, but my eyes are upon you, will you not intervene?

Will you not stand with me and between me and whatever it is that's coming against me?

May I take refuge in you? So the actual prayer is for God to act and to show himself to be the

God that he has pledged himself to be, because he is our

God in Jesus Christ. Amen. And I'm going to take one last question on the previous topic that we launched the program today with, seeing beyond life's storms.

Well, it's not really related to that specifically, but it's more in a line with that than the second topic.

We have Osinachi in Lagos, Nigeria, who says, thank you for this topic.

Anyone familiar with the African Christian scene would know that this is a hot issue because of the animism and voodoo that is often practiced.

Would your guest please shed more light on how the topic of demonology should be addressed with respect to spiritual warfare?

That's a two -hour program on its own, but perhaps the best is you can summarize that.

It is. You're right. Well, actually, there is a book in my study of spiritual warfare, and I've read a good amount on it.

One of the books was by, I think this is the one,

Michael Fappe, Powers and Encounters with Power, Spiritual Warfare in Pagan Cultures, and it seems to me, if I recall correctly, he's coming out of an

African context and addresses that in a, I think, a biblically balanced, much more profound way than I would be able to off the cuff here, because I talk more, not so much about the demons as a way that shows up in our everyday, in Satan's, you know,

Satan has three basic tactics against us that we need to contend with in everyday life as Christians, and one is, again, we have to stand in Christ in the gospel against Satan's accusations, we stand in Christ's righteousness, we stand in Christ's power against Satan's temptations, and we stand in his resurrection power, and we stand in Christ's truth, the word of God, the word of Christ, well, and spiritually, against Satan's lies, his deceptions.

But in terms of possession and all that, I think that in the African culture, that Michael Fappe book might be a better one to latch onto.

Powers and Encounter with Powers, with Power. Powers and Encounter with Power, Spiritual Warfare in Pagan Cultures, and deals with the animism and all that.

Wow, and the Banner of Truth, again, I'm plugging them a lot today, Banner of Truth also has an excellent book by Patrick Leahy, I don't know if you've heard of that,

Dr. Gale, but I remember I had wanted to interview,

Frederick Leahy, I'm sorry, Frederick Leahy, I wanted to interview Frederick for the longest time when

I was broadcasting out of New York, but he has since gone home to be with the Lord before I had the opportunity to get him on the program.

But Frederick Leahy has a book called Satan Cast Out, a study in biblical demonology, and that's published by Banner of Truth.

And we also, I have interviewed a

Lutheran, a Missouri Synod Lutheran scholar on this subject. He has written a couple of books on this area.

One is titled I Am Not Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare, Robert H.

Bennett is the author, and you can get that through Concordia Publishing House, and he wrote another book as well on that same issue.

And I think the other book is called Afraid, as opposed to I Am Not Afraid. Those sound like very good resources, and there has been, it used to be that these kinds of issues and spiritual warfare were dealt with in a very fanciful way, you know, really stepping outside the bounds of Scripture.

Right. Back in the Puritan day, you know, precious remedies against Satan's devices, and there were a lot of excellent things, and then the

Church lost interest. They lost their bearing, the biblical bearing God gives us for dealing, wrestling with spiritual principalities, things like that, and how to go about it in a biblically balanced way.

So I'm thrilled that these books are coming to the fore, again, that addresses something that's part of life.

Yes, because all too often we who are Reformed, unfortunately, I think, are embarrassed to discuss things like that because they're sensationalistic, or they can be, and they can be mishandled by the charismatic movement, and they can be spoken about in a unbiblical or even a heretical way, and so sometimes we

Calvinists tend to shy away from things like this, but they are biblical issues that I think relate to today.

Yeah, very much so. Well, by the way, thank you, Osinachi, for your excellent question, and thank you for the

American address where we are shipping a free copy of Dr.

Gale's book, The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms, and when

I say we're shipping it out, actually it's CVBBS .com who's shipping it out, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, compliments of the publishers,

PNR Publishing, and we thank them for supplying these books today, and thank you,

Osinachi, for listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and keep spreading the word about our program in Nigeria and beyond.

Well, now let's move to the second topic of the day, the writing pastor.

Obviously, you are a writing pastor. That would be obviously a key to why you wanted to discuss this today, but any other catalyst behind your wanting to address this topic today?

Well, in my...in Facebook and some other different ways of connecting with people,

I've seen this as a thing that's thrown out there, so I know that there is an interest nowadays.

There are a number of pastors who believe they have something to contribute and want to know how to go about that, and wonder what place there is, is that appropriate for them and their ministry to undertake that?

And so I've just seen all sorts of questions related to it, but there's a definite interest in pastors wanting to have that broader influence in their ministry.

And obviously, the Lord has opened up many opportunities that didn't exist before for men who believed that they had a gift and an insight and an authority and a subject to write a book.

It was much more difficult, not even five to ten years ago, for a pastor to get a book published because of the long line ahead of them by people who are already well known and are selling very well for an unknown pastor to approach one of the major publishers and actually successfully get something published has been a very difficult and rare thing to come to fruition.

But, you know, and also combined with that, that the self -publishing world, not so long ago, the products produced by that realm were very amateurish looking.

You could immediately spot, very often, a self -published work because it looked, the covers were really horrible, the binding was bad, the typesets were bad, but in this day and age, you have books coming out that actually compete with the best of Christian publishers.

Oh, it's remarkable. It is remarkable. There are many avenues. It used to be that what was called vanity publishing was very much looked down upon, but nowadays, one of the things about having a book published is it's something that you can put in people's hands so that, let's say that, and plus you don't need, this is vanity publishing, this is self -publishing, where you don't need to stock 3 ,000 books or so in a warehouse.

There could be print -on -demand things or electronic versions of books, and many ways that pastors can get their work out there, even for a limited group.

Let's say they're just working with 30 people, but they want to have something to be able to put in their hand that they've worked on and to use as a curriculum or a resource.

That can happen, and there are some number of tools out there,

I guess you pay extra for them, for editing and for various services that some of these self -publishing houses offer.

Yeah, and the flip side of the coin is that it makes the duty of the Christian even more difficult to be discerning than what to buy, because you can have people that are totally unqualified easily cranking out books that are looking very professional and sharp and very attractive, and yet the contents are very dangerous.

But that's been going on even with major publishers anyway. Yeah, but that's my philosophy. I personally, although I can see, in fact, a friend of mine, a well -known author, and he has no trouble getting his books published, but he's thought about this self -publishing because he would have greater control over a number of areas that he thinks would be useful.

So here is a guy who has ready access to established publishers, but he's even thinking about that for himself.

Now, for me, I like the idea of, I've got a number of books out, and I haven't had anyone, no one's approached me saying, would you publish something for us?

I know that does happen, but not to me. But I like the idea of getting it out there where I submit a proposal, and when a publishing house that I respect embraces that, that gives me a confidence that the book is worth reading.

And like when I work with PNR or Reformation Heritage Books, for them to say, yes, we will invest the money that's needed to publish this and to market it and all that, that says to me that the

Lord is at work, and he's given me this credential, this affirmation that this is something that someone else sees the value in, and they're willing to invest in it.

And so I personally, I like that. But I do also recognize that self -publishing is a way to get quality work out there.

Right. Obviously, as a talk show host, and having very specific theological views that I take seriously, known as Reformed Theology or Calvinism, not that I exclusively interview

Calvinists. I do interview people outside of the spectrum of Reformed Theology when somebody has written on a book that is still truthful and still important, as there are many of our

Arminian who have written such books. But it takes a bit of the legwork away from me, the requirement of legwork, when

I know that a publisher who has a reputation for being very discerning and only publishing the most biblically sound works by biblically faithful men,

I can immediately be not at 100 % ease. I should never just be very willy -nilly about it either, but I am much more confident when

I see something that says PNR Publishing or Reformation Heritage Books or Solid Ground Christian Books, who happens to sponsor this program.

Yes, Matt. Well, what is some, before we go to our break, because we do have our final break coming up, but what is some of the immediate thoughts that you want to give to our listening pastor, who is either a writing pastor already or is aspiring to be one?

Well, I encourage pastors to be writers, because I think that our time in the study, in those hours of exploring various, our time in the

Word of God, taking into account various sources, the prayer, and as we put together sermons like that, then we can,

I think it's helpful with things that we think are worthwhile, that have really blessed us, and we've seen them bless our congregation, to share these for the larger

Church. One of the things I do, I went to Covenant Theological Seminary in St.

Louis and got a Doctor of Ministry degree, and that's where I was first exposed to spiritual warfare, because it was a neglected topic in Reformed circles, like you said earlier, and I thought when

I finished that, when I finished the dissertation and did all that work, I thought, this is something that is helpful for Christ's Church.

They need to, it would be a benefit to get this out there, so that's when I wrote my

Community Houses of Prayer Ministry Manual to make that, you know, feet on the ground kind of ministry, and then also wrote

Warfare Witness, Contending with Spiritual Opposition and Everyday Evangelism, so that people could have this perspective, and I wanted to bring that back, and there are others who are studied in something, and to get it out, whether it's through a blog, or whether articles in magazines, or journals, or books, you know,

I think it's a very healthy thing for the Church. Now, pastor always needs to watch his motive and why he does these things, but I think there is a very noble reason for getting his work out there and giving a larger audience.

Well, we're going to our final break right now, if anybody would like to join us during our final half hour, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. This is the final half hour of our interview with Dr. Stanley D.

Gale and we started off the program with the prayer of Jehoshaphat, seeing beyond life's storms.

In the second hour we entered into a discussion on the writing pastor and if you don't mind,

Dr. Gale, I have a first -time listener whose email arrived just moments ago after we had concluded our first discussion.

If you don't mind, I'll ask this one last question about seeing beyond life's storms, if that's okay with you. Sure. Especially since he's a first -time listener.

Josiah in Isanti, Minnesota. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.

Isanti, Isanti, Minnesota. Hey Chris, thank you for your faithful ministry with Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

My friend brought your program to my attention in April. I have been greatly encouraged to be able to listen to your show via podcast as I spend a lot of time driving for my work.

My question for Stan, my brother lost his first child 17 days after his birth.

He and his wife had been wanting and trying to have kids for several years. Now two years later,

God blessed them with a beautiful and healthy baby girl which we are so grateful for. However, they are still mourning not having their son with them.

They are believers and trust in the sovereignty of God. How can I best love and encourage them while they are still mourning the loss of their child?

Thank you for your ministry and advice in this matter. And he says that he increased the font on his email so I wouldn't comment that it was microscopic.

But if you could respond to Josiah's very sensitive and important question. Well, there is no magic wand.

Grief is real and it runs deep. And it's hard to say some of the things that might be at work there.

Whether it's, there could be elements of just genuine grieving over a loss of a child.

There might be other things that are involved with their view of God or an understanding of his providence or what is certainly the second child cannot replace the first.

But I guess it's a matter of giving it to God. Giving everything to God and perhaps the best approach here is to lead them to pray.

So not to come with answers, but to say encourage them to go before God constantly, regularly, and pour out their heart to him just like the psalmists do.

To be real with God and to say this hurt is just not going away. And I don't understand,

I don't understand what's going, I don't understand how it will affect me and my love of this beautiful new child.

And just lay it all out and continuing to lay it all out. But I think that also there needs to be movement where you say,

Lord, how can I find strength? How can I trust that you do all things well when

I'm confused about it in my own mind? Lord, there is unbelief in my heart. Help me in my unbelief.

And so it's a matter of laying out, just like the prayer of Joshua does, it helps a person process, process through this and understanding who

God is and what he's like and how he works. In fact, the book itself might be helpful to them,

I don't know. But I do think that they need to be regular in prayer and real in opening their hearts before God as they cry out to him much as the psalmists do.

Well, thank you, Josiah. You have won our final copy that we have available of The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, Seeing Beyond Life's Storms.

Please give us your full mailing address because not only have you won a free copy of Dr.

Gayle's book, but you've also won, since you're a first -time questioner, you've also won a new

New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB. And that will be shipped to you along with the book by Dr.

Gayle, Compliments of CVBBS .com. That's CV for Cremlin Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com.

Please give us your full mailing address in Minnesota so we can get that out to you as soon as possible.

And we have now a question from the topic that we are officially addressing in the second hour, the writing pastor.

Murray in Kinross, Scotland says, as both a writer and a pastor, do you find it easier to divide up your day in an ordered, disciplined way?

For example, never being seen out of your study before lunch, never being seen in it after lunch, or do you find it easier to only give time to writing when there is a creative spark and maybe leave yourself available for shepherd care and visitation as needs arise any time of day?

Well, this question is a hint of the voice of experience. People are all over the place in what works for them.

Some people, some brighter friends of mine, they are most productive at night.

For me, I'm worn out at night. My brain cells are just not functioning. But some people, it's the morning.

There are times when there's a book that you've contracted to write and you need to press ahead.

Sometimes you just need to stay, be at the keyboard, working on things, jotting things down as they occur to you, and longing for that creative spark.

And then when that creative spark happens, it's like igniting a gas leak and you just, the ideas flow and you're having trouble capturing them with words.

So it really is different for every person. For me, when

I have a new book project in front of me, it's helpful for me to have a block of time, and sometimes what

I'll ask the church for is a week of study leave. And I will be able to take some of the things that I've, notes that I've studied, and I'll be able to start charting a course for the book.

And I'll be able to start, I'm able to start writing. But that immersing myself in it is a huge help. And then when

I can do what a gentleman from Gotland suggests and have that time of day that best suits me, that I can try and get at it where, you know, some people have a goal of a thousand words a day.

Some people have just various goals. In fact, John Piper just came out with an article on how he writes and at this stage of his ministerial career.

And that's well worth looking at on the, tracking that down, that article on the web, because you can see how he approaches to, and he really has jumped into the deep end to get stuff done.

So he makes it a, in fact, it sounds kind of daunting, almost onerous to all the time he puts into it, but that delights him.

And that's where he finds himself productive. He's got his devotions in there and things flow out of his relationship with God to the page.

So it really varies from individual to individual. There are various tricks of the trade to get things done that need to get done, but a person needs to know their own rhythms and they need to write something they know too.

It's very, some books will flow from a pastor's heart who knows the scriptures well, and it'll flow that way.

Some people like the thing, like I think the book that Buzz is writing right now, it sounds like it requires a lot of research and a lot of digging into things, and that's a different animal.

So there's great variety, great variety. Yeah. I can say, I know personally that Buzz has done a lot of research because he has not only books on the subject by reliable and sound sources, but he also has a ton of the books by the more bizarre authors in order to contrast truth from error.

And you also, I think, especially when you're writing, if you're going public with anything like that, you've got to be extremely careful not to misrepresent your opposition.

Yeah. And in fact, I have a question from CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, do you not place great importance on footnotes, especially when you are writing something other than fiction or something that might be more devotional?

Aren't footnotes very important as to reveal the authenticity and reliability of the book you are writing?

Well, publisher's contracts, your contract with a publisher for a book will have in it saying that the book, things are original with you and things need to be authenticated.

And so, yes, footnotes and notes will be important. So we need to be very careful.

In fact, you regularly hear of these scandals where Christian authors have been revealed to be plagiarizing.

Yes. Yeah. So your footnotes are helpful. It's helpful for you. So as you're writing a book, for you to, it's important to where you do have a reference that you write it down right away, write it in the thick of things.

You can organize it later so that you don't forget your source. Well, I want to make sure that before we run out of time, before I take any more listener questions, that you specifically address other areas that you most want our pastors listening who are either authors or aspiring authors, what you most want them to remember before the program ends.

Well, I appreciate that. There are so many different ways for pastors to write with blogging nowadays is good.

And with the various books and journal journals, magazines. So I guess it's a matter of saying, what do

I have to say? How much do I have to say? And then what form is a good place, a good place for that and to figure that out.

You know, each each writer has his own way of going about things.

And, you know, usually I've got other a number of book ideas, but there are things that are on deck and things that are kind of in the wings.

And some I may never get to some books I will start. But the key is to seek the

Lord, say, Lord, is this something that you are leading me to do to write? And then not to neglect that as a call of God.

And you don't want to neglect that gift that God has given you to away with words.

I'm reading a book and I'm part of a writer's fellowship and I'm reading a book by,

I forgot who wrote it now, but it's called C .S. Lewis and the Art of Writing. And it shows how

C .S. Lewis was influenced, how he how he ended up writing the way he did.

And in fact, one of your advertisers, I guess, Solid Ground Books, said the quote, Spurgeon's is a man who never reads, will never be read.

And it's kind of it's kind of like that. And C .S. Lewis was such a voracious reader and it influenced him.

And he grew as a writer because of his reading.

And for me, one that I'd love to read, I usually have a theology book and a mystery on my table.

And I love mysteries because it captures the reader's imagination. So I kind of write that way.

I put questions out there and create conundrums and then try to solve them. It creates interest in the reader to say, well, how does this work?

I guess that's pretty much it. So I want to encourage pastors to write, to find their own voice, to find their own style, to have the right motives for the sake of Christ and the

Kingdom, and not just to make a name for themselves, but to use this for the sake of Christ.

Now, don't you think that it's also wise for aspiring authors not to attempt to reinvent the wheel unless they have some kind of an insight that hasn't been addressed by another author?

They really should not be writing a book on a specific subject that has been published, perhaps even exhaustively in great length and has very thoroughly and biblically and accurately addressed the issue.

To address it just because it's your own words might be an unwise step, wouldn't you say?

Well, that's kind of a tricky question because a book can have a shelf life, so that there's a time, especially with, there are those classics that have enduring value and will be turned to and read over and over.

But sometimes someone will write on a topic. For example, I wrote a book called

A Bindripe in Life, Spiritual Fruitfulness Through Abiding in Christ. Yeah, we interviewed you on that. Yeah, and there are other books out there on the fruit of the

Spirit. There are books on abiding in Christ, and so one of the questions I asked myself was, why should this book be written?

What value does it have? And I was convinced that I had something to say that added to the topic.

Yeah, well, you just said something key, though. You said something key there, though. You said you had something to say that to be added to the topic.

Yes, but then sometimes, though, books, people will look for books within like the last 30 years and they'll look for something.

So the topic will have been forgotten and it's those that are on the new arrival shelf that people will look to.

So it really is, it is tricky, but you want to, I appreciate the point you're saying, you don't want to say something, you want to write a book just so that it's your words and your name.

Do you think I should give up on the idea of a book that I was thinking of writing called A Puritan Guide to Masculine Attire with the subtitle

The Care and Maintenance of Powdered Wigs? Should I just give up on it? If you have a chapter on man buns,

I think that would be great. I want your word on that. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, the man buns.

I'm sure all the books on that have gone out of print, Chris. Well, then maybe there's a need for them. You never know what's going to happen in our future.

In fact, there's some movie, what was it? There's a movie where the hosts of a

TV show in the future have powdered wigs. I can't remember the name of the show. Well, your book will have a short shelf life.

Okay, but let's see. Well, we have

RJ in White Plains, New York. He asks, are there any books in print that are helpful guides to the writing pastor or the

Christian author that are available to them by those who have already experienced success in that field?

There are, and I have seen them, and I could not reference one. I just don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, nothing's occurring to me.

I know that I've come across a number of books, but I can't remember any titles. I'm terrible with remembering titles of books.

Yeah, Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. I would say, though, that when it comes to something like the art of writing,

I don't believe you have to limit yourself to just Christian writers on writing. I have been influenced greatly by a particular writer on writing that, as far as I know, is not a

Christian. So how has this Dr. Seuss helped you? I have learned to rhyme words like you wouldn't believe.

But really, though, I've got a book. I've got a number of books on writing and editing and things that they might have been used as textbooks at one time.

I'm not really sure. But they've certainly been helpful to me as far as grammar and brevity and so forth.

It's been really helpful. Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Let me see. I just had his question in front of me. Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York asks,

What are your best recommendations on how to discipline yourself when writing as to not plagiarize the thoughts of others when you have been greatly blessed and motivated by those authors to write what you're writing?

You know, I'm not sure how much original... People, we are informed and we get our ideas from...

They are fed by the writings of others and sermons, things like that, that we hear.

And often, it seems to me what we write is a development in addition to an aspect of stuff we have heard before.

And there is, unless we're directly quoting from someone, I don't think that it is possible for us to...

We might not even remember where it is that we got these ideas if we do and we have a source and it needs to be mentioned.

For example, I wrote a book on forgiveness. And one of the people who greatly influenced me in the whole idea, the practical aspect of forgiveness was

Jay Adams. And I know that he said some of the things that I mentioned in a number of his books, but I don't know where that it was.

So all I did in my footnote was I'm indebted to Dr. Jay Adams and his writings on these things.

So I got his name in there so people know that he was an influence for me, but in terms of exactly how he was an influence,

I wasn't able to be specific. So many of our ideas, we really stand on the shoulders of others and advance their same thoughts in our own words, or perhaps maybe take them a little bit further than they did.

And when we can attribute, we attribute. If we can't, we can't. Well, what books as far as...

Not books on writing, but can you recommend books, obviously you've written books, where the aspiring author can not learn from this book because it's a step -by -step guide to writing, but it's just a book on any particular subject where the format used and the style might be something that would help guide an aspiring writer to develop his own style, and yet something that would be within the guidelines of what would be the wisest approach to writing, where it's most easily understood and most thoroughly documented, etc.

Do you have any recommendations along that line? Well, if I understand your question, the ways

I think, one of the ways you can train yourself to be a writer is, as was mentioned in a

C .S. Spurgeon quote, and that is to be a reader. And there are ways that things that appeal to us.

For example, J .K. Rowling, who did the Harry Potter series, she writes mystery novels under the name

Robert Galbraith. Her books, I didn't read any of the Harry Potter stuff, but I do enjoy these

Robert Galbraith, and she uses these long, complex sentences where each sentence seems to paint a picture.

And that kind of reading takes a great concentration. On the other hand, there's John Grisham, who writes legal thrillers, and he has very short, simple sentences which are easy to read.

So, what appeals to us? When we read, what appeals to us? Do illustrations?

Is it better to begin with a question? Is it better to begin with an illustration that people can enter into?

You know, like sometimes we begin sermons with illustrations. So, as we read and we see what gets to us, what communicates to us, and we look at our own gifts and how we can express things.

Sometimes I know that, for me, I used to write with very, just, it's probably a pride thing,

I don't know, but using all these big words, and then

I realized that that's not helpful to people. It might make people think that I'm something special, but that is not helping me as a writer in helping them to grow in what

I'm producing. So, I've evolved over the years in how I've written, probably becoming more simple in my approach.

So, the author needs to, well, I think his best way to learn will be to read and to see what connects with him.

And another great way to write books is to be fortunate enough and blessed enough to have somebody like Phil Johnson on your staff who takes your sermon notes and creates the books for you.

It's no secret that Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries actually is the one that compiles

John MacArthur's sermon notes and creates the books out of them. Out of John's sermon notes, which are on yellow legal pads,

John does not type his sermon notes on a computer. He actually still handwrites them on a yellow legal pad.

Is there any benefit into actually handwriting books rather than typing them on a computer, or vice versa?

Obviously, there's some benefits with typing them on a computer that are innumerable, but are there any benefits the old -fashioned way that you can think of?

Well, that's an individual style thing. Some people, just like with John MacArthur, you're describing it.

That's the way he likes to get things down, and he likes to feel the hand and the pen to the paper.

For me, whenever you make a change, I remember when I did my doctoral dissertation,

I was so grateful for word processors because when I would decide to insert a footnote, the whole thing would be reformatted.

If it were the old -school way, I would have to go back and retype the whole thing to make it fall in the right place, so I really appreciate the word processor and what that can do.

Again, different people have different strokes. Let's see.

There was Chuck Swindoll. He was a pastor in California at the time, and I visited his church.

He had an outline for sermon notes, and I noticed at the bottom it was copyrighted.

So what that says is that he was going to use that to turn that into be part of a book.

But even there, he's thinking ahead, saying this sermon is going to go beyond this congregation to be a book to bless the greater church.

But it was copyrighted, which caught my eye. Yeah, it's interesting that you brought up Chuck Swindoll because someone very well -known,

I'm not going to mention his name, a well -known Reformed person, apparently lost an entire book that he was writing with the use of a computer, and being not computer literate, he, with one wrong click of a button, lost everything.

And I think he approached, from what I understand, approached either Chuck Swindoll personally or someone in Chuck's family that was very computer literate in order to retrieve that lost material.

But that's another thing. If you're going to use a computer, you better know what you're doing. And he was successful?

He got it back? I believe so, yeah. That's what I remember hearing. Yeah. Yeah, that's a nightmare.

Yeah. Well, I want to make sure before we run out of time that we also have all of your contact information provided for our listeners.

I know that your church in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, and I shouldn't say your church, the

Lord's Church where you are under shepherd, Ironworks Church in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, that website is ironworkschurch .org,

ironworkschurch .org. The Community Houses of Prayer website is chopministry .net,

c -h -o -p -m -i -n -i -s -t -r -y dot net. Any of the books that you are hearing about on Iron Sharpens Iron, not only

Dr. Gale's book that we have been addressing, but the books that he and I recommended throughout this program, please go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, C -V, or Cumberland Valley, bbs, for biblebookservice .com,

because if they don't already have it in stock, they will order it for you. They are a very trustworthy book retailer warehouse, really, with tons of very biblically sound books, theologically reformed books, and they are very likely to have whatever you're ordering, but if they don't, they can easily get it and get it to you at a very competitive price, cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com. And particularly, if you want to also see what else

PNR Publishing has to offer, since they are the publishers of The Prayer of Jehoshaphat, the book we addressed during the first hour, you can go to prpbooks .com,

prp for Presbyterian Reform Publishing, books .com, prpbooks .com. Any other contact information you care to share,

Dr. Gale? No, well, the Community Houses of Prayer website not only tells people about Community Houses of Prayer, but it also has,

I think, all my books on there and links to them. Great. Well, I want to thank you so much for being my guest today,

Dr. Gale. If you could hold on, I'd like to schedule another interview with you. I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my co -host today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater