Dead Men Walking Podcast: Classic Rock & Biblical Faith

Classic Rock, Christian Music, and Late-Night Humor

Hey, howdy. How you doing, Jason? Doing awesome, man. How you doing? Pretty good, man. That's.

Great. What have you been up to, man? What's going on? What's going on, baby? Yeah, yeah,.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does that music just make you want to talk like that? Is that what you say? I don't know, dude. Are you trying to offend all of our Southern listeners? I just.

Read, I just read a Leonard Skinner, Leonard Skinner meme on the way over. Oh, Leonard.

Skinner. Now you're getting your Leonard Skinner memes in. Dude, let me tell you something,.

Man. There's a few things that I love. Classic rock's one of them. I'm not going to lie.

Southern classic rock? Or just classic rock in general? It's classic rock in general.

But then again, I grew up on the oldies. My dad was all about 104 .3 WOMC out of Detroit. But yeah, man, we would listen to Motown and the 60s hippie stuff and everything back to Johnny Cash, Elvis, all that stuff.

What did you listen to growing up, really? Was it really.

Keith Green? I wasn't allowed to listen. Growing up, growing up, up until I was 15, 16, it was the most rowdy music I ever listened to was one album by Don Francisco where he played a blues riff and we'd have to play it after my dad left, which is hilarious.

If you go back and listen to Don Francisco, it's like the calmest, hippiest, Jesus freak movement music. Although my grandmother, who is 100 Polish, and maybe this plays into that a little bit, gave us a Christmas edition tape of Cheech and Chong.

Oh, wow. Which one? Up in Smoke? The Christmas one where he's doing Christmas rhymes. He's like, Santa Clease, the one with the bony knees, walking down the street with no shoes on his feet. And we're like, we don't know what we're listening to.

We're like seven and eight, me and my brother. We got it as a tape player in the bedroom and we're like, he's doing Schizobo and he gives a little magic dust to the reindeer and a little more to Santa Claus, whatever that one is.

Oh, gosh. Oh, my gosh. My mom and dad walked in and they were like, what are you listening for? We don't know. Busted. Two funny guys with voices there. I don't think my grandmother knew what she was giving us.

She just found it at a garage sale or something. So real wide range there. No secular music, but slipped in a Cheech and Chong tape when I was little. But when I got older, it was Southern rock for sure, man.

Led Zeppelin, one of my favorite. Well, they weren't Southern rock.

Well, I mean, classic rock now. Wait a second. They were south of Michigan. Yeah, right. No, no. They were east. They were east. Right? Yeah. Over in the UK. But no, I remember going into a Christian bookstore and I picked up a DC Talk record.

I can't remember what the name of the record was. Doing a new thing. New thing maybe. I don't know, but there was graffiti on the front of the record. And my mom was just like, yeah, no, you will not be getting this.

Really? I'm like, what? This is a Christian bookstore. I think it was around the era where everything was satanic. It was like, oh no. You know, ACDC behind the music. If you play it backwards and all these different things.

And they did have some pretty crazy music for sure. But certain things you're just like, wait a second. This is actually to the glory of God. So why are we saying no? It's almost like your Keith Green story.

Somebody told you, oh, I don't know if you should be listening to that.

It's got a drum beat. Which we've said before in here too. I mean, this is just my opinion, but General Simpson, like you said, man, all the arts belong to the Lord. He said, if the devil owns it, we'll go back and plunder it back from hundred and fifth, every chord, every canvas, because it was created for our enjoyment and it was also created to bring glory to him.

And I think you can bring glory to God in a A E B rock riff, right? Whether it's on the guitar or the piano or whatever else. I was listening to,.

I mean, I'll say this on here. It doesn't matter. Metallica did a one, another album with a symphony. So I wanted to check it out. That was a while ago. Well, no, they did the second one a couple of years ago.

So I love orchestrated music and I just wanted to hear how it sounded with a little bit of metal behind it, you know? Right. It's okay. We'll pray for you. Yeah, for sure. They did one tune with just the orchestra and then James was singing.

And I was just thinking, I'm just sitting there like, could you imagine if a faith-based singer was out there with the word of God, some good Calvinist, reformed teaching, just building it out with a whole orchestra behind it.

I would love to hear something like that, man. No, that would be cool. Oh my gosh. And yeah, and I want to be a part of it. So if you guys do that, just remember who said something about it first. It was right here on Deadman Walking.

If there's any people out there that need Jason to speak over a full orchestra. Oh man.

He will read the scripture. I'll read the scripture or I will sing. Just let me know. Just let them know.

You know, I'll do it. Well, it's so funny that you said Southern rock too, at the top of the show, because I have this, I switched over my CD slash whatever face screen in my car. It's an aftermarket and my FJ Cruiser.

Yeah. You have a CD player? It still has a CD player. Oh my gosh. Where's your tape deck? You got an eight track in there?

I haven't upgraded it yet. Now I am though, because what's happening is every time I get in the car, it connects with the Bluetooth. And for some reason it goes to Pandora, but when it's connected to Pandora, it won't allow you to actually change any of the things on the app.

It's going through a secondary app. It's so weird. And it just auto starts on Leonard Skinner. Every time I get in the car, I start the car and it's like, one, two, three. I got to shut it off. So I'm too lazy to go in and find the settings in the unit.

So every time I get in my car now, just some guy counts to three. And if I'm not quick enough, I get the beginning of, you know, sweet home Alabama. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. Turn it up. Turn it up.

Yeah. So you said Southern rock.

Great guitar solo at the end. No, wait, that's Freebird. Yeah, Freebird. Freebird's good too. Oh man. Now that you guys know what we listen to sometimes.

Well ZZ Top too. I mean, LaGrange.

Oh, pfft. Jesus, ZZ Top is amazing. Oh man, so many good tunes. Okay. Sorry.

It's funny now because my six-year-old, if I play that, he knows exactly when the drums come in. So he'll just be sitting in the back and you'll just see him in the background. You know, he does the little hit.

He's not accurate. That's awesome. I do grade my six-year-old on his ear drums. Yeah, I was going to say, did you just... Yeah. But... Okay, so now that you know we're both heathens, let's move on to talking about the Bible.

What Biblical Faith Means

Let's talk about faith. Yes. Let's talk about faith. Will you do it in the Latino Bill Johnson voice when we read scripture tonight? Yes. Let's talk about faith. Let's talk about faith. Do you have enough of it?

Yeah. And if you don't, it's your fault, even though it's a gift from God.

Chris had a little bit of a oopsie-woopsie. Oopsie-woopsie. Dude, I'm going to repost that. Should we talk about that really quick? Oh, man, I don't know if we should, man. Should we tell people to go watch that on our Instagram?

Are we releasing this for real?

We're in a funny mood tonight. Right? All I'm saying is you made that Latino Bill Johnson, I laughed so hard, and then we posted to Instagram and like 80 people watched it. I know, right? Like one person liked it.

And we were like, we laughed so hard at that. I know. It's just an absurd, like Saturday Night Live, like Second City. It's Bill Johnson talking about stuff, but in a Latino, kind of like a really uber, yes, Latino.

Yes. Why we put Latino on it, I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah. Our wives were like, why are you doing that? Yeah.

It was night at the improv in the Dead Men Walking studio. We just started just joking around.

It was 1130 at night, too. Maybe that had something to do with it. Everything's funnier after 10 p .m., I think. I have a theory, like things get funnier the more the sun goes down. Well, it's not a theory.

Even comics don't like doing day shows. There's just something funnier about the night. Understandable. Maybe people are delirious.

I don't know what it is. You know, we used to do college shows and they would have some comics do the lunch hour while kids were eating. I've heard those horror stories from comics. Yeah, man, I'm just standing there trying to make people laugh while they're eating lunch.

Right. You know, just rolling out of bed. They're in college. PA announcements coming over the...

Please meet counselor in section four. You know, I do comedy. Oh, my gosh. Oh, but what are we talking about tonight? Let's talk about faith. Yeah, let's go from Southern Rock. To George Michael. No, I'm just completely joking.

But we did want to talk about faith a little bit just because we're living in some crazy times right now. Yes, sir, we are. And, you know, I think faith sometimes gets misconstrued as just believing in something, which it does have.

We're going to go through some stuff. It does mean to believe in something. But I think faith is deeper than that. And I think we just wanted to do a quick episode just to maybe help people be reassured, maybe define it a little bit, maybe just discuss it.

We'll see where it goes. This is going to be a very conversational episode, not really question and answer. We don't have a guest tonight. And we haven't done an episode in quite a while. Well, last week we did, which you heard it.

But it was our year episode. Yeah.

Well, actually, they'll probably be listening to another one that we released. We don't know when we're going. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. There goes the whole theory of trying to timestamp this episode.

Maybe we could erase it. No, now I'm leaving it in. Now that you said erase it, now I'm making it up.

Hebrews 11 and the Nature of Conviction

Oh, man. Where are we going to start? Let's start in Hebrews 11. Well, the Hall of Faith, right? Hebrews 11.

Hall of Faith. Like you were saying. Now, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. I love that word conviction there. Just having a deep conviction of things not seen.

For by it, the people of old received their commendation. Commendation. Yes. By faith, we understand that the universe... I love this verse 2, 11, 3. By faith, we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Right. Now, even if you... When I read that, something that jumps into my mind is if you study physics or anyone that talks about the universe, think like Neil deGrasse Tyson and all these guys. They are now on a theory that says everything in the universe is actually made up of unseen things, right?

We saw that with like the electron and the neutron and the proton and all that, right? But now they're saying under string theory, everything at the subatomic level, at the smallest level, is made up of vibrating strings that can't be seen.

So everything that's seen is made up of unseen things. And here you have 6 ,000 years ago. Well, not 6 ,000, but Hebrews is a couple thousand years. A couple thousand. 6 ,000, referring back to when God spoke everything into existence, or however long ago you think how old the earth is.

Well, it also makes you think of Colossians 1 .16, for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through him and for him.

And then verse 17, and he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

It's about Christ. Yeah, I just love when science catches up to the Bible, you know? Love it, yes. So you have Paul, we're assuming, the writer of Hebrews, talking about the world being made by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

And then I love verses four, five, six, seven, as you go down, it's like by faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, right? So he starts going through and saying by faith, by faith, by faith.

He starts setting out all these examples where faith came into play in these pivotal moments within the Jewish and now Christian faith, right? And anyone who's either thinking, wanting to know more about faith or struggling with do I have enough faith or what is faith, I highly recommend Hebrews 11, because right at verse four, by faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts.

And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks, by faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death. And he was not found because God had taken him. Now, before he was taken, he was commended as having pleased God.

And without faith, it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Yeah. That's a powerful one there too. I must believe that he exists.

Yeah. And I mean, in 2 Corinthians 5, 7, we also have four, we live by faith, not by sight. So here we are living in these times where, you know, it's kind of an uncertain time for some. Some may still be held up in their home, afraid to get out, afraid.

Of, you know, not wearing two masks or not getting the vaccine or people that aren't getting the vaccine or, you know, what, whatever you're running into right now. I mean, God's got it, right? Yeah. Like, I mean, we have faith in what he has planned and he knew that this was going to happen.

Like he's not learning about COVID right now. He's not learning about this pandemic. Like he knew it was going to happen, right? Sure. So, I mean, we just need to have faith in the process. It's not like God took a break.

Right.

Exactly. He's not out to lunch. Christ on lunch break, not sitting on the throne. Exactly. No, we got St. Peter occupying it for him, keeping it warm. Yeah. No, he's ruling and reigning. Amen. Amen. The right hand of the father.

And just to be clear too, like some people think like faith is going out on a limb, not really believing it, but just doing it anyway. When the actual word there, pistas, actually means conviction of the truth of a thing.

So literally having a deeply held conviction that the thing you believe in is the truth. Right. So, so faith actually says you have to be convicted that it's the truth. You know, sometimes we throw around the word faith and we're like, well, I'm going to do it.

I'm just kind of have faith. Like, I don't believe it's true or I don't really believe it, but I'm going to have faith, meaning like take a leap of faith. Right. Yeah. When in fact the word being used there for faith is a deeply held conviction that the thing is true.

That means like really believing it. Right. That God exists, that God is in control and he's sovereign over all things that we have imputed righteousness through him, that we have faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior.

Like when you say that word faith and go, well, I'm going to believe it. Even, you know, I'm going to do the action, even though I might not truly believe it. That's a sign of faith. Faith is having the deeply held conviction that it's actually true.

Right. And I think that's why like a true faith or an active faith, like in James verse, a dead faith, an active faith does produce works and does produce things in your life because you have a deeply held conviction that it's true.

Right. Amen. If you, Jason, if you have a deeply held conviction that something is true, most likely it will affect your actions, the way you act towards it, the way you look at it, the way you interact with it, correct?

That's how I was with premill when I was premill. Yeah, it really did affect like how I viewed the world. It was just kind of like, well, what does it matter? Why would it matter if I save for retirement?

Why would it matter, you know, what I teach my kids? What does it matter? I mean, this was the premill that I kind of, I learned. I know that there are solid premill people out there. I'm sorry if there's everyone that ever gets offended by us saying that premill is not what we ascribe to, but you know what?

Like that's what I was, that's the type of premill. It was the escapism.

It was the... He's praying to the wrong deity. Exactly.

No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was exactly that though, but yeah, my conviction was, you know, what does it matter? You know, like I'm gonna get taken out of here anyway, so, you know, what does it matter?

You know, so... So that deeply held conviction changed your actions and changed your interaction with the Bible. I would say even on a non-biblical example, right? Yeah. If you believe in gravity, a deeply held conviction that something is going to happen, a scientific proof like gravity, that changes the way you act or do things, right?

If you didn't really truly believe that gravity works, well, who knows? Maybe we go up to the top of the roof and jump off and see if we can fly, right? Yeah. We know that gravity is something that is real and it's a deeply held conviction.

We have faith in that thing that we can't see. That's the kind of faith that Hebrews is talking about here. It's using the word, a deeply held conviction, not just something, well, I'm gonna hedge my bets or I don't really believe in it, but I'll do it anyway, and that's having faith.

No, faith moves you forward, propels you forward towards an action or in an action because of the deeply held truth that you know that it is. That's what faith is. So when we say a true and lasting faith in Christ, right?

We're saying every word that he said is true. Everything in the Bible is true. His claims of divinity is true. His claims of the resurrection is true. His atonement is true. So therefore, that deeply held conviction that those things are true then change the way we talk, act, and interact with those things in the scriptures and throughout daily life.

Do you believe that your salvation where you were drawn in by Christ, do you think that that pertains to that as well? Would it explain a little bit? Like the drawing in? Just the drawing in of what Christ did.

The father drawing the... The father drawing you in, you know, you're getting salvation. And then, you know, as your faith is propelled into that next walking phase of your walk as a Christian, you know, like, I mean, is that something that kind of would pertain to that same truth, that same conviction, that same, you know, I know that Christ is real.

I have faith because of what happened to me in my salvation, in my regeneration in that moment. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. Okay. Because I just had this conversation with someone. I think it bolsters it for sure. And I think I might've said this, you know, maybe on one of our clubhouses, I think. The only thing is, you don't want that to go to extreme to where all of our faith is based on experience.

It's experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Experiences are good. They're real. They can help bolster a faith. But an experience is not what defines who God is, if the Bible is true or not, if what Christ said is true or not.

Experiences don't do that because people have all kinds of different experiences, some contradictory to what the Bible actually says. But I think experiences, and I think God can even use experience to bolster faith.

Now, we have to understand that even faith is a gift from God. I think this is one of the biggest hurdles for Arminians or even like your Layton Flowers, who's a provisionalist, who tries to, you know, kind of walk the middle of the road and be like, well, we choose, but God learned through the hallways of time and saw that you were going to choose, so then he chose you.

And it's like, well, even the faith, yes, God draws first, but then you have to have faith to react to that. And it's like, but the Bible says even the faith to know and accept and understand who God is, is a gift from God, comes from God.

He's the author and the finisher of our faith, right? I know I'm kind of getting off track with that question.

Living by Faith, Not by Sight

Yeah, but no, yeah, I understand that because I think it was us that we were going back and forth about the experience thing. And I think it was just, you know, in that moment for me, I think my faith, just because I did experience Christ, you know, I did experience the Holy Spirit, you know, I did, you know, in that regeneration moment.

And I just think to myself, man, like as our faith is growing, I mean, there's a lot of things that we walk through. I mean, this is a pandemic, right? Well, pandemic. Air quotes. You know, yeah, yeah, sorry.

I literally, you know, whenever I hear pandemic, it really, it doesn't add up. Irritates you? Yeah, it really does. But I've, you know, I also have a heart for those people that are just so fearful, you know, and it just, it does sadden me in some ways, because I mean, it's like, okay, well, where do you put your faith?

You know, are you putting your faith in the science? Are you putting your, where are you putting your faith? You know, are you putting your faith in Christ? Because if your faith is there, then, you know, if you read the scriptures, you know, there is nothing that you need to fear, even death, even death, you know?

Well, that, that's, yeah, that's kind of the whole point. Jump over to Psalm, can you type in Psalm 27, 1, because this just made me think of something really quick too. Yeah. I kind of, you know, I had that inscribed in my class ring, and then I lost it two years later after I got a class ring, Psalm 27, 1.

Bring up the ESV version of that, and I believe there too, and I kind of had this, this idea when I reread that.

Can you read that for us? Yeah, my internet isn't working for some reason. Oh, there you go.

Oh, here we go, right here. So Psalm 27, 1, or I can see it from here, it says, The Lord is my light and my salvation. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life. Of whom shall I be afraid?

Okay. I looked at that and I went, we use that verse all the time for like, like physical things, like, like pandemic, like, you know, a downtime in my life, you know, someone I'm not agreeing with in literally though, what is the Psalmist concerned about?

He's like, why should I have any fear? Not, it doesn't say the Lord is my giver of food and shelter. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the one who protects me against viruses. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the one who provided a nice car for me and gave me three beautiful children.

Whom shall I fear? No. Why does he not fear? Because ultimately the Lord is my light and my salvation. It's a salvific verse. Like I've always read that for 20 years. Now, some of you are going to go, yeah, that's great, Greg.

You're catching up to the rest of us. But for me, I just read that, and especially in a time of pandemic, like what is COVID -19 against the backdrop of eternity, against the backdrop of salvation, against the backdrop of your spirit and your soul, like it's nothing.

And we have believers living in a state of fear over something, you know, and you can argue 99 .9996 mortality rate. I would argue your chances are still pretty darn good, but you could be in a, you know, you could have a comorbidity or you could have something going on.

You're elderly. I get it. There's still fear. But even then, against the backdrop of what the psalmist was really concerned about, salvation. If you are a believer, if you are in the kingdom of God, if you have been called a son or a daughter, what are you fearing?

Right. You should fear nothing. You should rest in the sovereignty of God. You should rest in that grace and mercy that's been bestowed upon you. Like that's the faith we're talking about, a faith that, a deeply held conviction that says, I'm not going to live in fear because I have a deeply held conviction, a faith in what Christ said and what God says and what the Bible says.

And against the backdrop of salvation, I know he's my savior. I know he's my light and salvation. What should I fear? Right. Nothing is the answer to that. Yeah. And that's really the mindset I think we need to get into, and even specific areas in my life, but also broader, like you were saying, Jason, to the pandemic of the fear of, oh my gosh, or inflation and money problems and pandemic and the virus and vaccine and all these issues.

Joe Biden's in the office. Joe Biden's in the office. If you don't like Joe Biden, you know, like political stuff. What's he going to do? What does any of this mean against the backdrop of salvation? It doesn't mean a whole lot because in Psalm 27 .1, David is stating it right there.

And if you read farther down, he talks about evildoers assailing me and physical things and all that. But what does he start that Psalm out with? The most important thing, doesn't matter what's going on around me.

You're my light and my salvation. There's nothing that I fear. And I think this is a great verse for people who might be struggling with fear, which then they interpret as a lack of faith. And we can have that argument if you want to call it that.

I would say fear and lack of faith, maybe don't go hand in hand. I think you can be fearful and still have faith in something, but I think you can be fearful for the wrong reasons because measured against an eternity with a sovereign God and someone who rules and reigns sovereignly over his creation.

Boy, we sure become fearful of some pretty silly things in comparison. Right.

Wouldn't you say? Yeah, I'm thinking of the, where's that at? That's in Matthew, the parable where, oh, I think it's John 21, sorry. That's okay.

So just do a little live looking up here. We didn't really, we just said faith and then turn the record button on. So you guys are hearing what we're rolling around in our head right now.

Right. So where, where Jesus says to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these? He said to him, yes, Lord. You know that I love you. He said to him, feed my lambs. He said to him a second time.

Simon, son of John, do you love me? Said to him, yes, Lord. You know that I love you. He said to him, tend my sheep. He said to him the third time. Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, do you love me?

And he said to him, Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you. Jesus said to him, feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted.

But when you were old, you will stretch out your hands and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go. So this is verse 19. He said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.

And after that, and after saying this, he said to him, follow me. And then Peter says, Peter in verse 20, Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved. And that's really funny that he says that verse because it's in John and John wrote this.

It's about John. He says, yeah, the one he loved. Yeah, the one he loved. John's like, the one he loved, me. So Peter turned, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following him, following them. The one who also had leaned back against him during the supper.

And he said, Lord, who is it? What? Oh, wait, I'm sorry. Lord, who is it that is going to betray you? When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, Lord, about this man. Jesus said to him, if it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?

You follow me. And I think there's a lesson there for sure. Like Jesus asked Simon Peter three times, you know, do you love me? You know, and it's like, I mean, where you hear Peter saying to him, you know, like, like, yes, yes, yes.

He says it three times. But, you know, at the same time, I think Peter, all of a sudden his humanity shows up and he's like, well, what about John? What's going to happen to John? You know, and it's like, don't worry about him.

You follow me, you know, and it's like, I think a lot of times we worry too much about the person maybe down the road that doesn't have the mask on or doesn't have the vaccine or doesn't, you know, it's like, you know what?

Like at some level, I think just have faith and just know that Christ is in control. He is sovereign over all and he knows what's going on. If you go through it, guess what? Christ puts you through that, you know?

They're like, just know that he knows what's going on. I mean, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to sing that, that, that, that cheesy.

God only knows what you've been through. God only knows what to say about you. Sorry.

But yeah, I mean, I just think that, I think that there needs to be faith within our walk that just says, hey, guess what? God knows what's going on. We're going to be totally fine. You follow me.

That's all you need to do. You know? Oh, absolutely. Anyway. Sorry. I went off on a tangent. No, that's good. I do love the fact too, that he said he would follow him three times. And then just a few days or a few weeks later, he then denies him three times.

It's like Jesus knew what he was doing. I think he was having a little mercy on him. Like, I'm going to let you say you love me three times. Cause I know in a few weeks here, you're going to deny me three times.

But what if, what if that, you were reading through that and my brain just works weird. I'm like, what if Jesus was telling Peter to wear a mask? What if he's like, Peter, will you wear a mask? Yes, I will.

Peter, will you wear a mask? Yes, I will. Peter, will you wear a mask? Yes, I will. Well, what about John? He doesn't have to wear a mask. And he's like, hey, you don't worry about John. John, you just do what I say.

Right. Like put any weird thing in there. And it's like, that is kind of the point that you're trying to make. Now you can flip it around and say, don't wear a mask. Or I just threw it in there. Cause we were talking about COVID.

No, yeah, for sure. But it's like, your point is so right. Like you don't get to look at the guy down the street. And even if you want to talk about masks, like some people have made the mask issue, like a hardcore doctrinal issue in America.

Now I understand the persecution that's coming with it. And I understand the whole thing with like telling churches, they can't worship. We've talked extensively about that. So I'm not defending government actions towards Christ church here.

I'm saying, I've seen brothers and sisters in the Lord making it such a big issue. They're drawing the line. They're drawing the line there. And then they're also saying like, no, you have to do this or you can't do that.

Whether you do have to wear the mask or not wear it or obey the COVID restrictions or not. And it's almost at some point, aren't we supposed to be looking at Christ? And he goes, yeah, you don't get to look to that guy wearing a mask or not wearing a mask.

You obey me. And I'll tell you what, if everyone did that and we submitted in love to our brothers and sisters because we were obeying Christ, I bet you we could work out a lot of this stuff within the church a lot more easily.

For sure. I mean, loving your brother and your neighbor as yourself. I mean, where's the love in saying, you ain't wearing a mask so you don't love me. It's like, no, I do love you, but I just have a different conviction about the mask and everything else that is being pushed on us right now.

Well, that's the crazy thing too is because most of the churches that have those type of attendees or even leadership before this happened espoused to be the most tolerant, accepting, inclusive churches that were.