July 22, 2016 Show with Jason Wallace on “Is the Church of Latter-Day Saints the Church of Jesus Christ? Mormons & their New Efforts on Ecumenism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our.

Host.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on

this 22nd day of August, of August.

You're really, you know you're late.

Of July, of July 2016, and the reason I said August is because I was

staring at my calendar at the date where Todd Friel is going to be our guest on August

15th to discuss a book that I obviously need to read badly, stressed

out, a practical biblical approach to anxiety, and I am going through a very stressful day today.

In fact, as you know, if you're listening, you heard a different rerun starting at

four o 'clock, and then we kicked in eight minutes later because there was a technical difficulty with the

overseas server or something at Leading Edge Radio Network, and we

were not being permitted access to the live streaming for some reason that we don't

know.

I don't know if anybody really knows, but we are so thankful that the Lord provided this

opportunity for the program to take place today, even in spite of that

technical issue in the beginning, but we have back on the program my friend

Pastor Jason Wallace, who is pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah.

It is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and we are going

to be discussing more of the issues that separate

the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints from genuine Christianity.

We began this topic earlier in the month, and there was so much to cover.

In fact, I know we couldn't even cover, we wouldn't even scratch the surface after today's program.

There's so many things, there's so many reasons why Mormonism is not Christianity that we could

go on and on.

In fact, it could be a regular program on that one subject, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome

you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Jason Wallace.

And for those of our listeners who are discovering you for the first time, let our listeners know

about the Orthodox Presbyterian.

In general,

and

also

about

Christ

Presbyterian

Church in

Salt

Lake City,

Utah.

Amen.

And

my.

Co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor is a member of the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, and I know that

there's a lot of fellowship between those denominations, and I myself, for those of you who don't know, am a

Reformed Baptist, so today I'm in the minority.

It seems that Reverend Buzz and I go back and forth on who's the minority and who's the majority on the show.

So today I'm outnumbered, but the things that we have in common far outweigh

anything else.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we would love to hear especially from Mormons.

I would love to hear from a Mormon if they are listening.

And if you feel more comfortable remaining anonymous, if that's the case, that's fine as well.

But otherwise, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence

if you live outside of the USA, and we hope to hear from you.

Once again, the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Well, we covered a lot of things last time you were on about Mormonism, and

we aired some clips from some

excerpts of the video that you have created, the documentary that you have created, that

Reverend Buzz Taylor and I had the privilege of participating in by doing some

of the narration in the voices of famous Mormons, both

those from the past, from the origins of the cult, all the way up to the

more modern day apostles and prophets.

And tell us about this video again for those of our listeners who haven't

heard you on the program, and they are hearing this information about this

video for the very.

First

time.

Yeah, the

difficulty

with

speaking

with

people,

not

only

of

other

religions, but.

Even people who profess to be Christian within evangelicalism, and perhaps are Christian,

but have aberrant views, or views that you just can clearly

see that are not scriptural, things that you have come to learn are an error.

It is very difficult in a day and age of political correctness to

bring these things up, because people automatically assume right out of the gate

that you are arrogant, proud, that you are a bigot,

that you have hate in your heart.

It's amazing to me how people, some that I know very

well and love, are getting involved in very heated discussions

about politics with me, and yet they think

that it's all right for them to judge my views on politics, and yet it is absolutely

verboten for me to say anything critical about their

religion or anyone else's.

Isn't it interesting how you can, in this culture, in fact it's expected of

you to have some kind of a side or a view when it comes to

the political arena, but don't you dare begin to speak exclusively or in exclusive terms when

it comes to Jesus Christ and your faith.

That's out of the question.

Do you find this a challenge.

In your own life, Pastor?

Oh, most definitely.

I mean, I received an email today.

And the thing that's interesting is he doesn't even recognize that he is pointing out something.

He believes is a mistake that you are

committing.

Yeah.

Now, when

you say

they

do it all the

time,.

As we were discussing, we began in our discussion last time we were doing an interview

on the same subject, they have changed their public

approach to evangelism, if they would even call it that, or even just

telling the public about who they are and what they believe and what they're about.

And as I said, I bumped into those Mormon missionaries in the street who said to me,

you've probably heard that we think that we're the only true church, but that's not true.

We're just another Christian denomination, just like you are.

And that seems to be a 180 degree shift from the present

approach.

It's a new public relations campaign that they have.

But are you saying that when they still criticize and even condemn other beliefs, is

this something that they're doing privately?

Or I remember you were saying in the video that missionaries are doing it, at least overseas they are.

Where is this taking place, this criticizing of other belief.

Systems?

Well, just to

give a summary

of what

some

of

our

listeners

or

perhaps

many

of our listeners.

Have missed from our last interview, let's give a summary on how the

Church of Jesus Christ of or the Mormons as they are more commonly known, how they

are in a polar opposite

position to the Bible -believing faith of

Christianity that we and those who have historically

followed the teachings of the Reformers and so on, which is the teaching

of the Scripture.

How is this 180 degrees opposite?

I know that in one very serious and radical way is that they

are not monotheistic, even though they on earth, on this

planet, Mormons are praying to one God, but they believe in an infinite number

of gods.

That's how they, I think, get around the.

Charge

that

they are

polytheists, if you

could

explain

that.

Yeah,

so

they are

not creationists.

As some might think because they have much in agreement in regards to

morality and other things with Bible -believing Christians.

Many people really just in ignorance think they're just another denomination.

The word Jesus Christ is in the name of their religion, so they just think, hey, and they

read the Bible and so on, so they just think they're just one of us,.

But that's one thing that they are not.

Wait a minute, I

missed what you just said.

What was that?

I was flashing back to one of the founders of

Pew.

Right.

Well, apparently it doesn't at all challenge Donald Trump's insistence that he's

a conservative.

I thought that that was a very odd choice that here he is trying to convince everybody he's a

conservative and then he does this, but actually I guess it's because he's already won the primary, so now he's trying to convince

Hillary supporters to jump ship.

But anyway,.

So what you're saying then is that the Mormons have no real doctrine of creation,

that everything was eternal already, and that God is just part of that.

No, I don't think they believe God.

Well, yeah.

They don't even try to account for beginning.

They just say that, what do you say, intelligences and the universe are

eternal?

Yes.

And that he, don't they say he reorganized.

Matter?

Isn't that why we have trees and mountains and people and animals?

Well, when you're saying that part of the

reorganizing matter story that they have went from being Adam to

Father God, was Brigham Young speaking clearly as a prophet when he said

just like he did on the issues that we were discussing last time about the black race.

Being cursed?

Oh

yeah, he

said

it was a

revelation.

He taught it.

And it's

just amazing how they think.

That they can rewrite history like this.

I guess they just don't believe anybody's going to do any investigation.

Well, the other polar opposite views would be that Jesus

Christ, in their view,.

Is a spirit brother of

Lucifer,

right?

And

of

course,

the

other

radical difference would be.

That the virgin birth is not really true because

Mary, the mother of Jesus, had sexual relationships.

With Elohim?

Yes, that's

stated.

Wow, that

is interesting.

Oh my goodness,.

Did Joseph know about that?

Yeah, because it's interesting that they believe in polygamy, but it's always the male that has

the multiple wives, not more than one person sharing a woman,.

So it's

kind

of interesting.

I'm going

to be playing some

of the

clips

from.

The video and tell our listeners the name of this documentary that you have created.

All right, well, I'm going to be playing a clip of something that was said by Sidney

Rigdon,.

And he'll explain after we hear the clip.

Okay, we'll hear it.

God and all the holy angels to witness this day that we warn all men in the name of

Jesus Christ to come on us no more forever, for from this hour we will bear it

no more.

Our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity.

The man or the set of men who attempts it does so at the expense of their lives,

and that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of

extermination, for we will follow them till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will

have to exterminate us.

For we will carry the seed of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the

other shall be utterly destroyed.

Remember it then, all men.

Wow.

Now, was this before the Mountain Meadows Massacre took place, or was it after?

Oh, yeah, 19 years before the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

This is back in Missouri.

Now,

there will

not be, they are not greatly

scourged and in a great measure overthrown within five or ten years from.

We're going to go to a

break right now,.

And we'll be hearing some more clips after we return.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, at gmail

.com, whether you are a Christian, a Mormon, a Swedenborgianist,

an atheist, an agnostic, we would just love to hear from you with your questions when we return.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Jason Wallace and more word.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and if you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron, our guest today is Pastor Jason Wallace

of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, and he is discussing today

his DVD, or should I say his documentary, which is available free of charge on

the internet.

It is called, what is the actual title of the documentary?

An Earnest Plea to Latter -Day Saints.

An Earnest Plea to Latter -Day Saints,.

And the URL that you could watch it on is lds .video.

LDS, which stands for Latter -Day Saints dot video.

LDS dot video.

And before the break, we heard a clip of a narration that was

directly from the words of Sidney Rigdon, who was a high

-ranking official in the Mormon Church at that time in the 19th century.

Would he have been one of the original.

Group

that Joseph

Smith gathered

around him?

And did he

remain with

this cult till

the very end,.

Or did he ever break away and start his own group or anything like that?

He

stayed.

Yeah,

because I

was almost certain that there's still a tiny sect of

people who.

Claim the Book of Mormon that follows him as their leader from the past, obviously.

I'm

not

sure.

Oh,

really?

Well, it

worked

out well

for

him.

Yeah, and I know that there's some Strangite group.

Oh, yeah.

Well, let me go to another clip,.

And maybe you could set this up just like you did the other one.

This is a clip with a narration.

From

the

words

of

Dudley

Levitt.

Here we go.

This

is

Mormon

Dudley

Levitt.

I was with a group of elders that went out with President Young to visit the spot in the spring of 61.

The soldiers had put up a monument, and on top of that a wooden cross with the

words burned into it, Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay.

Brother Brigham read that to himself and studied it for a while, and then he read it out loud.

Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I have repaid.

He didn't say another word.

He didn't give an order.

He just lifted his right arm to the square, and in five minutes there wasn't one stone left upon another.

He didn't have to tell us what he wanted done.

We understood.

Yeah, that's pretty creepy, huh?

Yeah.

This next clip is by Joseph Fielding Smith, and of course

these are modern -day individuals recording this, for those of you listening.

By the way,.

This is a voiceover.

Yes, he has a very unmistakable voice.

You want to set this clip up?

I actually don't remember offhand the context of this one.

And Joseph Fielding Smith, is that Joseph Smith?

Is that the

Joseph Smith?

Well, here we go.

I firmly believe that there.

Will be some of that generation who were living when this revelation was given, who shall be living

when this temple is reared.

I have full confidence in the word of the Lord,.

And that it shall not fail.

Yeah, if you would like to describe that or explain that.

And now we have, I don't know who, what the first name is, Robinson.

Who is Robinson?

This is from the

second video.

And I'm

assuming

this is a real

clip

of

this

professor.

No, this is

from a...

Okay.

Well, here he is.

During the latter half of the 19th century,.

Brigham Young made some remarks about the relationship between Adam and God that the Latter -day

Saints have never been able to understand.

The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young,

as well as with statements of President Young during the same period of time.

So how do Latter -day Saints deal with the phenomena?

We don't.

We simply set it aside.

It is an anomaly.

On occasion, my colleagues and I at Brigham Young University have tried to figure out what Brigham Young

might have actually said or what it might have meant, but the attempts have always

failed.

The reported statements simply do not compute.

We cannot make sense out of them.

This is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it.

We simply don't know what it is.

If Brigham Young were here, we could ask him what he actually said and what he meant by it,

but he's not here.

And even expert students of his thought are left to wonder whether he was misquoted, whether he

meant to say one thing and actually said another, whether he was somehow joking with or

testing the Saints, or whether some vital element that would make sense out of the

reports has been omitted.

Wow.

Uh, you

want

to follow

up

with any,

uh, description

of that?

Sure.

I mean, yeah,

what, yeah, I'm

sorry.

It's not

just

over his God.

That's interesting.

Uh, and I remember,.

Uh, during the documentary, you had some very, very modern

actual clips of Mormon conventions.

I don't know what the exact gathering title would be, but, uh, you had one individual very clearly

identifying himself as the member of the one true church on earth.

Uh, he had a,.

He had a foreign accent and his name escapes me right now, but, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah,

or.

Something.

So this was to a Mormon audience.

He said that even though that's not what they're.

Typically saying in public

to

the

Gentiles, as

they call us,

right?

Right.

It is interesting.

That unlike Jehovah's witnesses, uh, who will not stick

around if you are praying because they believe you're praying to Satan, uh, Mormons

will invite you to pray.

They are happy for you to even.

Lead in a prayer.

That's kind of odd, isn't it?

Yeah, well,

yeah.

Well, because

if you recall,.

Uh, in my encounter a few months ago with some young Mormons in the streets of

Carlisle here, I prayed and I prayed that the Lord would open their blind

eyes and open, unstop their deaf ears and give them new hearts, remove their hearts of stone and give them

hearts of flesh so that they can see that they are trapped in a lie and so that they can truly

embrace the genuine Christ of the scriptures and so on.

And when I finished praying, they all said, amen, which was strange to me,

but they did.

I didn't have the, uh, ending like your friend did.

Uh, they didn't, uh, fall to their knees and cry out for repentance and become Christians.

It wasn't the same day.

Oh, okay.

Um, I'm going to play, I'm assuming this is Lorenzo Snow.

It says Snow, so I'm.

Assuming

this.

No, no, this

is actually

celebrating.

You mean Lorenzo Snow's wife?

No.

Oh, okay.

I'm sorry.

Say that again.

It was a what?

Oh, oh, I see.

Okay.

And, uh, all right.

Well, let me, uh, and just to, just so people know who I was talking about, he was the one, Lorenzo Snow had that

famous quote, uh, uh, as we are, God once was as God is, we shall

become or.

Something to that nature.

Yes.

Okay.

All righty.

Well, here is, uh, this, uh,

song

that

we.

Had.

Wow.

She had a pretty voice, beautiful voice.

And I'm wondering how difficult it was for her to.

Actually sing those words or was that actually a Mormon singing that?

Oh, oh, I know

the feeling.

Why do you know the feeling?

Because of the stuff we had to read.

Oh, you mean, or, oh, you mean it's doing the, uh, the narration.

Yeah.

In fact, I don't know if you can during a station break.

I don't have any of the clips that buzz narrated here.

Uh, if you check your inbox, I do.

Um, well, I, I think that I just, uh, played every clip that you gave me.

I did.

Actually.

There is none.

There's no more.

Hey, let me see if it went through and, uh,

okay.

Okay.

Cause last time we played every one of the narrations that I recorded were primarily Brigham young, but

there was also, I believe maybe an Orson Pratt thrown in there.

Yeah,.

That was actually, okay.

But there was some modern, uh, president or prophet that I,.

Or apostle that I, uh, voiced.

He was the, the one that was basic.

That's right.

That's right.

Um,

okay.

Well, here is, here

is, uh, a clip.

Uh, if you want

to set

this up, this is a clip.

That our cohost, Reverend buzz Taylor recorded in the voice of Herbert Kimball.

Heber.

Okay.

So that was not a typo, uh, Heber Kimball.

And tell us about that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, here

we go.

They

are holy places and they will be held sacred even as.

Jackson County.

And there is not a man living there, but this day has the spirit of fear upon him and expects that he

will have to March someday.

And to this day, no man has ventured to cultivate or build upon the temple block.

Joseph, the prophet dedicated that land and they felt the effect of that dedication and the

blessings will remain and all hell cannot get it off.

And I shall yet see the day that I will go back there with brother Brigham and with thousands and

millions of others.

And we will go precisely according to the dedication of the prophet of the living God.

Talk to me about my having any dubiety on my mind about these things being fulfilled.

I am just as confident of it as I am that I am called to be a savior of men and no

power can.

Hinder it.

You know, a thought just occurred to me.

Can you imagine people who are tuning into iron sharpens iron later and they recognize Reverend

Buzz Taylor's voice and they're saying, see what happens when Buzz or

when Buzz fills in as the host of iron sharpens iron and Chris's.

Absence,

look what kind of

heresies follow

up

on

that.

Yeah, I

apologize.

You have to.

The evangelicals can help out a lot here because we can keep extending the length of a generation,.

Right?

We're good at

that.

Well, in fact, you

just reminded me about something.

So perhaps.

We could settle something on the air for anybody who might be listening.

As you know, I was getting into a disagreement on the internet

with an Armenian or or someone who was just vehemently opposed to Calvinism.

And he was calling me a Mormon and trying to equate Calvinism with Mormonism

over and over and over again.

In fact, it wasn't just him.

It was several people.

And it was just totally bizarre because you can't get farther from Mormonism than

Calvinism.

And what I was pointing out to this person, and thankfully you eventually came in with a lot more

artillery with the truth that Mormons, the Mormon apologists will use

Armenian arguments and quote from Armenian commentaries and so on when they are debating

evangelicals, don't they?

But yeah, they have.

Now, he really he really was under the opinion that nobody's listening.

To Calvinists today when it seems to be the, at least in the academia, most of

what you are hearing is from Calvinists today.

I mean, in that specific realm of the more scholarly Christians.

Well, this was written.

Okay.

Yeah,

you would know.

Our Protestant,

we're

in the

most...

We're

actually

going to a break right now.

And.

If you want to, Pastor Jason, if you want to send me over some more MP3s, I'll be glad to play them.

That's up to you.

Okay.

And we're going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, we're going to be right back with Pastor Jason Miles.

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Welcome back and I guess a lot of you found out something that you never knew before, that Charles Haddon Spurgeon

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But if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address, as I said earlier, is

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We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York,.

Tyler, who wants to know, is it true that Mormons have sacred underwear

that no one is supposed to know about?

Well, I know that the first is true, but I don't know if it's supposed to be a secret.

Is that supposed.

To be a secret, Jason?

Uh, considering that I can look out my back window.

Not that secret, I guess.

I don't think they're a huge secret.

No, they're not a...

I'm assuming that the only time you're ever supposed to see it is on a

clothesline.

Kind of

like

Superman's

costume

that.

His mother made, right?

Yeah.

Now, where did that come from?

Who was that?

Yeah,.

What

is the

purpose?

The

Catholic

Church.

Who developed the underwear bit?

Was that Joseph Smith?

Was it

Brigham

Young?

No, what

do

they

look like?

How are

they

different than,

you

know,.

Your average pair of men's underwear?

I guess women have them too, right?

Women have their own.

So it's really just...

What makes it sacred then?

Are they prayed over?

Or what is the...

They've got

some...

Are all Mormons supposed to be wearing these at all times?

And do they?

And I can remember even as a young boy with the Catholic scapula going into the shower with it on and all

that nonsense.

And Tyler from Mastic Beach, Long Island asks another question.

Why do you think Billy Graham Evangelistic Association took Mormonism off the list,

a list that includes non -Christian religions?

Well, I heard Billy Graham with his own mouth on the Larry King show.

And Larry King, for those of you who don't know, has a Mormon wife.

And he asked Billy Graham, what do you think of the Mormons?

And Billy Graham said, I have no problem with those people.

And people, Christians, when I would bring this up, would try to defend Dr. Graham and

say, well, he was just saying that he doesn't have a problem with them.

Just like, you know, that we're supposed to be loving our neighbors and stuff.

I'm like, give me a break.

The man was giving the clear seal of approval and people look to him as a great

man of God and that his opinion matters.

And he was basically giving them a seal of approval.

Yeah, it's unfortunate as we've been bringing up lately on this program, his name seems to be coming up.

Billy Graham, there's a lot to be admired in his life.

He is an elderly man and his ministry began as

a fairly young man.

And there has never been a scandal.

There is no known problem that he's ever had in faithfulness to his wife

or financial abuse like many televangelists and those who have

rose to the limelight of evangelicalism,

many who have fallen in not only the sexual area, but financially especially.

He's had a pristine record in that regard.

But Billy Graham long ago intentionally took the root

of the liberal ecumenical movement in regard to his crusades.

And

so

on.

And

it's

a

shame.

Lucy

Smith

is going

to

be the

next

clip

that we

hear.

And Lucy Smith was his mother, right?

Correct.

And Lucy Smith was not a Mormon.

Oh, she

did?

But Lucy Smith eventually, though, did become a Mormon?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

For some reason that slipped by me because she was being critical of him.

So that's.

Why I was surprised.

Oh, you

know, I thought

that she was being critical of him.

Okay, here we go.

Joseph, from the first, utterly refused even to attend their meetings, saying, Mother, I do not wish to

prevent you from going to meeting or any of the rest of the family, or even your joining any

church you please, but do not ask me to join them.

I can take my Bible and go into the woods and learn more in two hours than you can learn at meeting in

two years.

If.

You should attend all the time.

Now that was when, well, she's saying this about the past, but she is referring to

back in a day when she was Presbyterian, correct?

Oh, what I was speaking of is when Joseph refused to go to the meetings.

That's what I mean.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah, that would have been...

Okay, but they were involved in the occult.

That's interesting.

Oh, yeah.

Because I knew that Joseph had some kind of, with the seer stone and all that, there was some kind of an

occultic connection with that.

Yeah, some people tried to make...

Well, here is another clip of a statement by Lucy Smith, the mother of

Joseph.

I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any that ever lived upon the face of the earth,

all seated in a circle, father, mother, sons and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy,

18 years of age, who had never read the Bible through in his life.

He seemed much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children.

See, that was another reason I thought she was being critical, but I guess she was saying that it was amazing

that he was so, like it was a supernatural thing he was so learned, even though he never read books.

Is that basically what...

Yeah.

One of the things that I was bringing up earlier, that I want to make

it clear, because it is a huge issue that separates Mormonism from Christianity.

It's not no trivial issue or no secondary or tertiary issue.

It is really one of the key things that separates

us, is that they believe not only is there not

one God, although they pray to one God, that there are an infinite

number of gods because Mormons, if they are faithful, become gods.

And there are gods in many other planets that are innumerable.

We don't even know how many other gods and so on.

Tell us about that, because people may think this is just right out of a science

fiction movie, which is kind of interesting that Battlestar Galactica

was written by Mormons and it is based on Mormon theology, but if you could...

Yeah.

Right, Adam, right.

But the...

Oh, I've heard of some South American individual, but I'm not the

person,.

In Australia, is not ringing a bell with me.

Okay.

A .J. Miller claims that he's the reincarnation of Jesus and that his wife is Mary.

And basically, what do they actually call

this?

I mean, do they call it deification, or what do they call...

Do they call it salvation?

What is the language they use for that?

Because a lot of times they use the same terminology that we do, but have different definitions, but what do they call

their main goal in life in regard to...

They would say exaltation.

Exaltation, okay.

Yeah, no, the term...

Do they use this term just in order to have some greater harmony with us, just

like they borrowed other terminology from Christianity?

Do they use the word salvation in any sense?

Yes, but their

view is...

Now, I've heard, and I don't know if I get the whole story correctly.

I'm not an expert on Mormonism and I also have a tendency to forget things that I've learned, but

I've heard that the only people who will actually be in hell are apostate

Mormons.

Is that true?

I believe that's outer darkness.

So hell is almost like purgatory?

It's funny how that keeps resurfacing, isn't it?

Yeah, well, it's ironic that Joseph Smith abhorred Roman

Catholicism, and yet there is a lot of connection as far as the use of

images and artwork and all that kind of thing that's all wrapped up

in their religion.

Oh, yes, that's the famous statue of Jesus that's unrecognizable as a Mormon statue now.

I know what you're talking about.

In fact, I was watching...

I don't even know why I was watching it.

I think it was like one of those things when you're rubbernecking and you see a car accident.

But I was watching Jim Baker's television show where he has this very strange

combination of a Christian talk show combined with survival

supplies, survivalist supplies that he sells on the

television there.

And he was giving away as a gift the statue of Jesus.

And I said, that's the Mormon statue.

And I looked it up on the line, and sure enough, the exact same statue that he was holding up, obviously

a tiny replica of it.

Yeah, and I actually misspoke.

Oh, okay, because I had actually...

So on the internet, I thought it was a Catholic myself, or it was purchased...

Oh, well, it's from...

Okay, but it was interesting, though, that they would use these images that

are very similar at times to Roman Catholicism.

Perhaps not as gaudy as Roman Catholicism, the relics and the artwork and the

architecture of Roman Catholicism.

Like a lot of things are ornately carved in things, but

it's like monotone usually, or all white or whatever on the outsides of the buildings, right?

Yeah.

But we have to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Jason Wallace, our email

address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Jason Wallace and more of our discussion on Mormonism.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in for the full two hours today, our guest is Pastor

Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, which is a congregation

within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

And we are discussing Mormonism.

And before we return to our discussion, one of our sponsors has an event they

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And when we just left the break there, we were going through some more of the

sharp contrasts that Mormonism has with Bible -believing

Christians.

And another would be the inerrancy of the scripture, wouldn't it?

Because don't they call into question the reliability of the

Bible, even though they do use the Bible?

And I think they predominantly, if not exclusively, use the King James Bible.

But they really, it's not something nearly as trustworthy as the Book

of Mormon or their other documents, right?

So, I mean, this religion that people are really

confusing as just another denomination of Christianity, you really can't get

farther from Christianity than Mormonism, can you?

Yeah, at least they're monotheists, that's one.

Yes, I do.

Okay, so you want me to play this now, then?

Yeah.

Okay, here we go.

Come on, ye persecutors, ye false swearers, all hell boil over.

Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava, for I will come out on the top at last.

I have more to boast of than ever any man had.

I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam.

A large majority of the whole have stood by me.

Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.

I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.

Wait a minute, that's from the Republican National Convention last week, Donald Trump's speech.

You've got this confused.

This is Donald Trump that we have here.

I'm sorry.

If you could comment a bit more on that.

By

the way,

we

do

have a...

I don't know if he's a first -time listener, but he's a first -time questioner.

Mark in Lexington Park, Maryland.

I tune in a bit late to the live stream and I hope my question hasn't been asked yet.

But I have a question for your guests.

Given the seemingly clear record, serious differences of doctrine between the LDS

church and historic Christian doctrines, how does your guest account for the growing acceptance of

Mormonism as a legitimate expression of the Christian faith by those who would otherwise be

considered strong and devout Christian believers?

We have been addressing that actually.

But it's interesting that our listener, Mark, is saying that

these comments are being made by people who would be otherwise considered strong and devout Christian believers.

I haven't heard anybody that I would respect as a Christian leader say anything like that.

But I mean, obviously, I gave some accolades where they were due to

Billy Graham, but he is not somebody that I go to for theological guidance by any stretch of the imagination.

But anyway, do you know anybody that would be more...

You know, Richard Mu or Mao is more of a

liberal, is he not?

I mean, is there anybody more in the conservative evangelical realm?

Mao was the...

Oh, he actually came out and said that, huh?

Oh, yeah.

Well, it doesn't shock me.

I'm just...

I just haven't heard him say it.

Mark in Lexington Park, Maryland, if you give me your full mailing address, I've got a surprise for you since you

are a first -time questioner.

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And their website, by the way, is nasbible .com, nasbible .com.

But if you, Mark, give me your full mailing address, we'll get that out to you very

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Compliments, as far as the shipping is concerned, of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

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taking care of all the shipping costs of our winner's items.

Chris, related to that question though, the world looking at Christianity, of course,

they cannot distinguish between Christian, Reformed,

typical evangelical, liberal.

They kind of put us all together.

And when you consider the fact that in many circles, especially through the Word of Faith movement,

Christianity in that regard has moved immensely towards Mormonism.

As far as, in fact, as I've heard, we've out -liberaled the Mormons in many respects by the

teachings that we are, you know, we are gods now and so forth.

And that, you know, the Name It and Claim It group is, you know, specifically the ones I'm referring to.

Oh yeah, like Kagan and Copeland.

Exactly, and others, Creflo Dollar and all.

But when you consider that we've moved that far towards Mormonism, it can be very

confusing to people looking on saying, well, you know, what is the difference between them?

And of course, we know that their whole goal, the Mormon Church is to become known simply

as another denomination.

But how are they actually succeeding?

As far as, like, is the Mormon Church growing or diminishing?

Do you have any stats on that?

I've got a variety.

Again, you know, it's not a very good idea to try to fight error with

error.

And so perhaps you could address the issue.

I have heard, I won't say whether it's a conspiracy or a conspiracy theory.

Maybe you could help out on that.

That one of their goals is to take over the United States of America.

And that they have a replica of Washington in the Mormon Temple.

And that the Mormon Temple in D .C.

In D .C.

And that, you know, Romney was just one step along the way towards that goal.

Do you have any information on that?

Yeah, a lot of that, I think, has to do with the white horse prophecy, right?

I'm not sure.

If you could, Jason.

I knew there was something wrong with you both.

Be careful when you say that, because now everyone is going to think post -millennial is our Mormons.

No, no, no.

I'll try to stop doing that. Thank you.

Well, I'm generally Baptist.

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day, right?

But what about those conspiracy theories about Mormons?

I think there is.

They

own...

Now, are the Mormons thoroughly pro -life?

I've heard some different responses to that.

I have heard from some people who actually were Mormons that your

bishop may, under certain circumstances, rightfully

counsel a pregnant woman to get an abortion.

I've heard other former Mormons from them that they've never heard that before,

and there seems to be some kind of a different understanding about the beginning or the origins of

when life begins in the womb and so on.

If you could...

You need to understand...

We do have another listener who has a question.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, In

light of the fact that same -sex marriage is now legal, I

do not doubt that polygamy is right around the corner.

Do you think...

This may be guesswork on your part, of course, but do you think that the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints will return to polygamist

marriage just like the fundamentalists are now practicing?

I

mean,

in reality,

I don't

know

how they

could

redefine.

Many different aberrant types of marriage, like incestuous marriage.

I mean, there's really no leg for them to stand on, no ground to say one

thing is reprehensible and wrong and evil and the other thing is completely wonderful.

You know, how can they make these kinds of decisions when they reject what the Bible teaches on the issue?

Yeah, I don't...

By the way, I would appreciate you praying about this.

I have the intention of trying my best to get...

Wow, his name just flew out of my head.

The Mormon political pundit that you just mentioned...

Glenn Beck.

Glenn Beck.

I don't know how that slipped out of my head.

Maybe it should, actually.

But I'm going to try to get Glenn Beck to watch your

LDS video, lds .video, and invite him on the

program to respond.

Now, of course, this may never happen.

I know that a friend of mine, a Christian friend, actually showed me on his

blog how he was interacting with her, and he was very

upset that his Christianity was being questioned.

And he said something to the effect of, okay, I'm going to do this one more time, and

that's it, because you seem to be sincerely asking me this question one more time.

Here it is.

And he started going into an explanation of why he believes he should be accepted as a Christian, and it basically

was boiled down to the elements of, I believe, Jesus Christ's sacrifice

on the cross was necessary for mankind to be redeemed from their sins,

and therefore I am a Christian, or something to that effect.

It was something where he was using Christian language, and as you know, they have a different dictionary for

the same words.

But I would love to try to get him on the program to respond to it, and just have

a comfortable conversation with him as possible without making him seem like he was ambushed

or anything like that.

But because of the fact that so many evangelicals revere him and even believe that he is a

Christian, I think that something like that might be helpful, especially, I hope, that he

watches your video.

Well, we

are out

of

time, Pastor

Jason,.

And I really thank you for being on the program, and once again for our listeners, that documentary you

can see free of charge at lds .video,

and the website for Christ Presbyterian Church is gospelutah

.org, and we can't wait to have you

back on the program, Jason.

Thank you so much.

Great, and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Have a very safe, blessed, and joyful weekend, and Christ -honoring Lord's Day.