January 3, 2020 Show with Dr. Tim J. R. Trumper on “Christianese or Christ? The Timely Challenge of Jesus’ Parable of the Sower”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this third day of January 2019, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest named

Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper. He is founder and president of From His Fullness Ministries, and today we are going to be addressing

Christianese or Christ, the timely challenge of Jesus's parable of the sower, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Tim J .R. Trumper. Well, thank you, Chris, it's a privilege to be back on, so I appreciate your work.

Thank you, and a happy new year to you, a blessed new year to you. Yes, a blessed new year to you too, and to all of your loved ones and colleagues at From His Fullness Ministries, and before we get into the topic at hand, your latest book,

Christianese or Christ, why don't you tell our listeners who did not have the privilege of hearing you previously on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio about From His Fullness Ministries?

Yeah, sure, thank you. Well, From His Fullness was founded in 2017 as a response to an increasing burden to make some modest contribution to theological education in an indigenous context, and also we're concerned to make our modest contribution to the rebuilding of the

Judeo -Christian values in Europe in particular through the publication of outreach, a publication called

The Way, or El Camino in Spanish, or Il Camino in Italian, and we talked about that last time.

So over the last two years I've been going to different countries, I've been preaching and teaching in Asia and Africa in particular, but my wife

Brenda has also been involved through Women's Ministries, so we have a board of six of us, and we are delighted the way in which the

Lord's opened up different mission fields and opportunities in various countries.

So in 2019 I was in Liberia and the Philippines and Pakistan, and recently back from Ethiopia, Tanzania and Malawi and East Africa, so we're very thankful for all the

Lord's help and guidance and direction and privilege to serve the global church.

Praise God, and for anybody, we intend obviously to repeat this later, but for anybody who wants to learn more about From His Fullness, you can go to fromhisfullness .com,

fromhisfullness .com. Well, you have written a book with a very provocative title,

Christianese or Christ, The Timely Challenge of Jesus' Parable of the Sower. If you could, please let our listeners know first of all what you mean by Christianese.

Well, I'm sure I'm not alone in being troubled by what we are seeing specifically in America, but not only in America, in the

Western world in terms of how we are responding to the heritage, the

Christian heritage that we have, and I've sort of lived two lives, really.

One in the United Kingdom, growing up there and seeing the depletion of our Christian heritage and then coming over to America, and it's almost like deja vu, the same pattern occurring.

So having made a false profession of faith when I was young, at the age of eight, and then only coming to true faith, saving faith in Jesus Christ at the age of 15,

I'm very concerned about the trends that we see in terms of what it means to be a

Christian, and I challenge myself first about that, but also as it's impacting attendance at church, and as it's impacting our response to Jesus, whether we are parceling him out between being

Savior and being King, or whether we are saying, okay, when I come to faith in the Lord Jesus, I'm surrendering to the person, and not picking and choosing whether I want him as Savior or as King.

And so what I've tried to do in the book is set the book in the context of the Kingdom of Heaven, and what

Jesus is trying to do through the parable, and discovering, when we set it in its broader context, that there's a lot more to the parable than we might think, and that the parable itself is a lot more provocative than you might imagine.

Yes, and the problem with Christianese, to begin with, I'm sure you would agree, these platitudes, these placards, if you will, these catchy sayings that Christians pick up on from the massive media campaigns that evangelicals are involved in, especially the larger churches, and also just the everyday conversations that they pick up on from the moment they are saved throughout their

Christian life, that they hear in conversation, that they overhear in evangelism. Sometimes the average

Christian makes the foolish mistake of speaking to the lost in these catchphrases when they don't even define them to the person that they're speaking with, and they might not even really fully understand them themselves.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? Yeah, sure, sure. Well, I think one of the challenges that we're faced with is the dumbing down of pulpit ministry, and so it's from the pulpits in some senses that these platitudes and clichés are coming, and I guess what the book tries to do is to say we really need to go back to basics and look at some of the standards

Jesus had for the proclamation of the Word and the expectations that he had for preaching, which really emphasizes discipleship as much as it does professions of faith.

You know, go and make disciples and not go and make converts. So I think there's plenty in the parable, if we set it in context, to challenge, hopefully in a helpful way, what we are faced with today.

And I think as Christianity loses its social perks, we're really going to discover, and in fact

I think we are discovering, that those of us who make professions of faith are really being sifted as to what do we understand when we profess

Christ, and are we really all in with regard to following Christ?

And as I said before, and I own this, that challenge begins with me, and only then, in terms of writing the book, do

I share that with others. Now since your book, obviously, even from its subtitle, relies heavily upon Jesus' parable of the sower, if you could go back to those texts and summarize them for us, exegete them, and then summarize the meaning, if you will, the primary meaning that both the saved and the lost should walk away from that parable knowing to be true.

Obviously the Holy Spirit is required to enlighten the lost in regard to this through regeneration, and in fact the

Holy Spirit is even required for the saved to understand fully the text of Scripture, even though we believe in the understandability or perspicuity of the

Scriptures, still the Holy Spirit is required for the full understanding, and especially the salvific understanding of the texts.

But if you could, if you could explain, at least in summary form. Yeah, sure.

Well, I guess for those of us who are in church and under any form of exposition of the word, the parable of the sower is well known to us.

In fact, it's undoubtedly the best known of Jesus' parables. It's found in all three synoptic

Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and I've really based the book on the longest version of it in Matthew 13, but it's also found in Mark 4, and it's found in Luke 8 as well.

But what I've tried to do is set it in its context, because we tend to dismiss the parable as an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, which is quite trite.

But when you set it in the context, and I've set it in the context of the theme, the biblical theme, of the

Kingdom of Heaven on the one hand, and what Jesus is trying to accomplish with the crowd that's round about Him when

He speaks the parable, we find that it's a really searching analysis as to our response to Jesus, not simply as someone who's come to save people from their sins, but as someone who claims to our lives and seeks to rule over our minds, our hearts, and our wills.

So what Jesus is really doing when He begins the parable,

He's at the height of His ministry, He's immensely popular, so many are following Him, they've even tracked

Him around the Sea of Galilee, and they're all before Him, and He sits down as a rabbi would, and He begins to teach.

And as one commentator has put it, and I believe rightly so, what Jesus is doing is distinguishing amongst those who are before Him, those who are within the

Kingdom of Heaven, who have believed upon Him, who are turning from their sins unto

God, and those who merely want Jesus for what they can extract from Him.

So He tells this parable, and first of all He deals with the seed that falls along the path, and it's a picture of the hardened heart, whereby the

Word of God can barely enter into that heart, there are certain cracks in the path, and so the seed can land, but typically the seed is just snatched away by the birds of the air, or it's trampled underfoot, and I think the trampling is our human response to the

Word, and how we carelessly treat the hearing of the Word, or Satan or his agents coming and taking away the

Word from us. And then Jesus goes on to speak about the seed that falls on the rocky ground, where the seed does seem to enter into the heart, but it doesn't go very deep, and so it springs up, there's an immediate response to the

Word, but such things as the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of the world, and the like, they quickly come, and persecution also, and takes away the seed, and so that's the person who really has an immediate reaction.

Dr. Trumper, you cut out, are you still there? By the way,

I don't know if you realize, you cut out for about five seconds, so perhaps you want to back up a little bit and repeat some things that you may have, that we may have missed.

Yeah, back to the parable of the... It was just five seconds of...

Oh, okay, okay. Well, you've got the seed landing along the path, and you've got the seed landing on the rocky ground, and that's representative of the person who has an immediate response to the

Word, but the Word does not go down deep into the heart, and so they come up with this superficial response.

But of course, when the reality hits them of what it is to claim to be a Christian, then they wither away as soon as they have arisen, because there's persecution, the deceitfulness of riches, or the cares of the world.

And then there's the seed that lands amongst the thorns, and the thorns are like the sins which basically prevent the

Word from growing, and then of course there's the seed which lands upon the good soil.

So what Jesus is saying then is that there will always be a positive response to the

Word, but when the Word is preached faithfully, we can also expect there to be outright rejection of the

Word, such as the seed landing along the path, an immediate response to the

Word which turns out to be highly anticlimactic and disappointing, and then there's the sins in people's lives which hinder the

Word from taking effect. So it's a very realistic parable of kingdom ministry, and my concern has been that in this age of big being beautiful, that we don't miss what

Jesus is saying about the way in which the Word divides those who truly are seeking

Christ and those who are only superficially doing so, or not doing so at all. Yes, this parable really blows out of the water the non -reformed,

Arminian if you will, understanding of the hearts of men when

Christians evangelize and proclaim and declare the Word The average understanding of evangelism according to the non -reformed is that there seems to be in their minds an equal playing field amongst men, where every human being has the innate ability to comprehend and savingly respond through the understanding that they've received through the taught

Word, savingly respond to Christ and believe in Him, apart from an act of regeneration by the

Holy Spirit upon the heart of the listener, apart from Jesus giving that person a heart transplant, removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh, there seems to be this idea, which actually puts a lot of burden, now we don't want to remove any burden from those that evangelize, we don't want them to be haphazard and sloppy and unprepared and so on when they preach and teach, but at the same time, in the non -reformed understanding there is a lot more responsibility, whether they're conscious of this or not, on the shoulders of the teacher and the preacher and the proclaimer of the

Word than the Bible actually teaches, because we are only planters and waterers and it's the

Lord that gives the increase. So there's a lot going on, according to this parable, within the hearts and minds of those that we are evangelizing that is already in existence before we open our mouths, more than the average non -reformed

Christian would actually understand or teach. Am I right on this? Oh yes, and I think there's no better example than the ministry of Jesus.

By the time He comes to the end of three years of ministry, He has 120 disciples in Jerusalem and 500 disciples in Galilee, from what we know, and He's crucified on the cross for what

He's preached and taught and done. And you follow that up with the example of the apostles who were empowered by the

Holy Spirit at the day of Pentecost, and they go out ministering the Word, and so far as we know, all of them but John were martyred for the faith.

So it's not simply in our powers of persuasion. And in that sense,

I think the parable is very liberating, because we as Reformed people preach the

Word of God knowing in the back of our mind that it's as many as were ordained to eternal life who believe,

Acts 13, verse 48. So that takes the pressure off us. We know that God has a people out there who

He's going to save. We know that God has ordained that means be used to reach them. But at the end of the day, we scatter the seed of the

Word, and we pray that God would bless the seed of the Word, but we know at the end of the day that God will accomplish

His purposes, and it's not in how much energy and powers of persuasion that I have.

So it's very liberating. Yes, and it's also, this parable, a rebuke to the

Hyper -Calvinist, because the seed is being distributed very liberally.

The one planting the seed is not looking for specific areas of soil that suit his taste or suit what he believes will produce fruit.

He is liberally throwing the seed around, and it is falling on all different kinds of soil.

So that also blows out of the water the false notion of Hyper -Calvinism.

Of course, there's all different kinds of Hyper -Calvinism. There's not just one stream. In fact, there are some

Hyper -Calvinists that are on opposite ends of the spectrum. You have some that so remove the preaching of the

Gospel in God's plan of salvation that they believe that there are non -Christians going to heaven.

Many of them would be in the camp of the primitive Baptists, although I don't want to broad brush that group, but they believe that there are many outside of Biblical Christianity who are going to heaven because evangelism is only to comfort the sheep.

It has nothing to do with actually bringing a lost soul to salvation. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum, many within the

Netherlands Reformed Church, the denomination that Joel Beakey left because of Hyper -Calvinism, they would have a very tiny, a tinier number that they envision being in heaven than the

Bible would teach. And they may even have a very large congregation, maybe even over a thousand people, where only a tiny handful receive the

Lord's Supper because they're the only ones that believe they're saved. But Hyper -Calvinism so removes the involvement of men and of preachers and of preaching because they have a distorted understanding of God only being the one who is the author of salvation, and we all as Reformed people believe that it's true.

But he uses means, he uses us to bring about those ends, does he not? He uses us to accomplish his mission of salvation.

Yes, and it's a wonderful truth. I mean it's very significant that the parable is called the Parable of the

Sower, even though so much attention is paid to the soil. So Jesus is speaking fundamentally about preaching, and if we forget that he's actually using a parable, we might begin to ask such questions like, why would an experienced farmer allow the seed to go on the path?

Or does not the farmer know that some of the seed is going on rocky ground and it's not going to be very fruitful?

But I think Jesus' point is, and he's speaking in the immediate context to his disciples who are going to go out and preach, make sure you do sow the seed of the

Word. And of course the wonderful encouragement we have is that unlike a farmer who could technically run out of seed, you can never run out of the

Word of God. So we have a wonderful permit by Jesus to go and spread the

Word liberally, and not to be afraid of where it actually lands, because it will bring forth a harvest in God's timing and in God's place.

Amen. In fact, what I would like to do right now is I would like to read the texts, and then we can continue on our commentary.

I'm reading from Mark chapter 4, 1 -20, from the

New American Standard Bible. He began to teach again by the sea, and such a very large crowd gathered to him, that he got into a boat in the sea, and sat down, and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land.

And he was teaching them many things and parables, and was saying to them in his teaching, Listen to this. Behold, the sower went out to sow.

And as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on the rocky ground, where it did not have much soil.

And immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of soil. And after the sun had risen, it was scorched, and because it had no root, it withered away.

Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.

And he was saying, He who has ears to hear, let him hear. As soon as he was alone, his followers, along with the twelve, began asking him about the parables.

And he was saying to them, To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing they may see and not perceive, and while hearing they may hear and not understand.

Otherwise they might return and be forgiven. That's quite an interesting way that Jesus concludes that.

That's certainly not in accordance to the average non -Calvinist understanding of every single person being given the innate ability to savingly respond to Christ, or, or should

I say, and the false understanding that Jesus has the intention and the desire to save every single person ever conceived of man and woman.

Hmm. Yeah, very true. And so, when we go back to the soils, which as you said before, most people focus on the soils rather than the sower when they read this.

One thing that we also have to make clear is that we who are Reformed, we do believe that initially, that all humans, the elect and the reprobate combined, initially are a part of the same soil.

We're not saying that we have some kind of superior innate qualities about us from our conception that make us the ones that are able to receive this gospel and spring forth as a new creation and bear fruit.

Jesus has to change the soil that we are originally from, does he not?

Oh yes, and very much so. We believe as Reformed people that we've all fallen short of the glory of God, and that we are all by nature totally depraved.

That doesn't mean to say we're as bad as we could be. It means to say that we're all impacted by sin in our minds, our hearts, and our wills.

But one of the things I say in the book is, well, why does Jesus deal with the seed that lands on the good soil last?

And although he is not, by dint of the genre that he's using, trying to explain everything about the doctrine of salvation,

I think he implies there that by dealing with the good soil last, we have one of these unregenerate hearts to begin with, and it's only by what we know by the whole scope of Scripture about the ministry of the

Holy Spirit in bringing us from death to life that we are able to respond and to bring forth fruit from the

Word that's sown. And Peter, who would have been present for the telling of the parable, goes into this in 1

Peter chapter 1 about the imperishable seed of the Word being sown in the heart, and we get the fuller picture from the fuller scope of Scripture.

Great. And we have to go to our initial break, our first break right now, and if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of our own, your own

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USA. Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Dr. Tim J .R.

Trumper, and the discussion at hand, his latest book, On Christianese or Christ.

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And keep in mind, folks, that Solid Ground Christian Books is going through a financial crisis right now, so please help them remain in existence so that they can continue to help

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to remain in existence. They are one of our key sponsors, and barring a miracle of God, I don't think that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio would be able to remain in existence without the financial support of Solid Ground Christian Books.

So, for all the upcoming birthdays and anniversaries and other things that are quickly approaching around the horizon that would require or at least give you more initiative to buy a gift for someone, please keep

Solid -Ground -Books .com in mind, even for upcoming

Valentine's Day. In fact, that's my birthday. If you want to buy me a gift, go to Solid -Ground -Books .com.

And please always remember to tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are now back with Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper, and our topic at hand is his latest book,

Christianese or Christ? The Timely Challenge of Jesus's Parable of the Seller. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. We already have some people waiting to have their questions answered, but before I go to them,

I just want to get through a few questions of my own in regard to this book and this topic.

If you could, Dr. Trumper, let us know specifically what you mean in your subtitle about the

Timely Challenge of Jesus's Parable of the Seller. Obviously, you're indicating that this parable has an ongoing and everlasting significance that is very much needed today.

It is not just for Jesus's hearers in the day that he walked the earth 2 ,000 years ago.

So please let us know what you mean by the Timely Challenge. Well, thank you.

Well, if we simply view the parables as an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, we tend to take something of the punch out of the parable.

But when you set it in its context and draw the parallels between cultural

Christianity today and what Jesus was facing in his own day, then

I think the parable is seen to be highly relevant. And so in the opening, the preface or the first chapter,

I give a word to, on the one hand, popular preachers who may fall into the trap of making ministry about numbers at the expense of discipleship.

And then I also speak to discouraged preachers who may be very faithful in preaching the word and yet are highly discouraged because they're not seeing the numbers that they would like attending their ministry.

And on the other hand, I speak to the current drift away from church documented by people like David Kinnaman in his book

UnChristian. And on the other hand, try to encourage those who are faithful to the means of grace, faithful in being loyal to the

Lord on his day. And I see, in some senses, the parable of the sower addressing our current need of revival in the church.

And so my concern is not simply that we address Arminianism on the one hand or Hyper -Calvinism on the other, but my concern is also that we address ourselves as Reformed believers, that while we may understand the parable, we may still be influenced by the culture.

And I'm especially concerned for local pastors who are under pressure because the numbers are not there and people are calling them to revisit their method of preaching or even calling for them to be fired because the numbers are not attending like once they were.

And I think what we're seeing in our own day is the sifting of the cultural Christian, in inverted commas, from the biblical

Christian, and church leaderships and congregations need to take account of the fact that that is happening and that it's not always a reflection on the minister that the congregation is shrinking.

A shrinking congregation can, in fact, be a complement to the minister of the Word. But you have to look at each context individually to assess that.

Okay, we have, let's see here. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks,

In your opinion, from your knowledge of Scripture, when should we ever give assurance to a hearer of our proclaimed gospel that they are truly saved?

Very often, at revival meetings and evangelistic crusades, masses of people go forward and they are told that they are saved simply because they recited a prayer.

And this can even take place in a smaller context in a local church. But obviously, as a

Reformed Christian, that is not the case within our evangelistic efforts typically.

But at the same time, should we not give people that we are confident have responded biblically to the preached message, that they can have some kind of good news in regard to their response to it?

Well, that's a great question. Of course, we're not gods. The Lord alone knows those who are his.

He has the perfect perspective on those who truly belong to him.

But there are certain evidences of a true work of God's Spirit in the life of a person, and we'd be looking out for those.

And one of the... Well, let me begin with the primary evidence, and that is a focus on Christ.

Because if the Holy Spirit is working in the life, then the ministry of the

Spirit is to point people to Christ. And so if an individual is becoming increasingly absorbed with Christ, then that's got to be a good sign.

And then there are other signs of regeneration, such as a love for the

Word of God, a hatred of sin, a despising of Satan, a love for the people of God, a love for gathering with the people of God.

And I think in circumstances like that, where there are clear evidences that something is going on which accords with what we find in Scripture of an authentic Christian, then we at least can say to people, you are giving the evidences of what we would expect of a true

Christian. And I hope that I'm doing that as well. So we don't speak dogmatically, but we can, as if we are

God, but I think we can speak authoritatively about what the Scriptures say a true

Christian will look like. Yeah, I like, I think where our listener is heading, and I don't know this for certain, perhaps if the listener wants to clarify with another email, but for instance, let's say, you are having a conversation with a

Muslim, and perhaps you've had previous conversations with this Muslim, and the Muslim has repeatedly, openly, and perhaps even aggressively rejected any proclamation of the

Gospel. And then, during this most recent conversation, you see tears flowing from the

Muslim's eyes, you see the Muslim fall to his knees crying out to Christ in repentance and faith.

He may even leap up and embrace you, saying, I finally know the truth about Jesus, thank you.

The things that we are to say immediately after that profession, which especially would be remarkable, coming from the lips of a very religious

Muslim, we might be more prone to say things that give more assurance to that Muslim, although we are not speaking infallibly, but we might speak in terms that give our

Muslim friend more assurance that he has received new life in Christ, rather than somebody who is chewing gum on a long altar call line, and mumbles a phrase called the sinner's prayer, and seems no different than he was when he was just waiting in line to get to the front.

Which I've kind of sat there in mystery at times, when I've been at revival meetings so -called, and I see these long lines of people waiting to have themselves prayed over, and sometimes they look like they're waiting in line at the

DMV, the Department of Motor Vehicles. There's no emotion at all in their faces.

But anyway, if you could respond to what I just said. In fact, you know what you could do, I'm sorry, we have to go to our midway break, so wait until we come back to respond.

Okay, sure. And folks, this is our longer than normal break. Please be patient with us, but since Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, airs this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format, they require a longer break in the middle of our show, because they air, according to FCC regulations, their own public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So, while we are running this midway break, we are going to be airing our own

Globally Heard commercials. Please write down as much of the information as you can gather from our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because we rely upon our advertisers to exist.

Please remember that. You can also write questions for Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

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Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more.

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If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

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1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com

That's CVBBS .com Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, you can also call CVBBS .com to place your orders, as long as you do so Monday through Friday between 10 a .m.

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That's the only time or that is the only time frame where you may call and actually have a living human being answer the phone.

They don't even have a voicemail, so if you're going to call to place your order, call, as I said, between 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Monday through Friday Eastern Time. And remember folks, that CVBBS is a book distributor.

They are not a publisher. So I ask of you to help both of my book -related advertisers at the same time.

Before you go to CVBBS .com, please initially go to Solid -Ground -Books .com

which is a publisher. Make a long list of the books that you want to order that Solid Ground Christian Books publishes.

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com Then go to CVBBS .com and place your order there in addition to other books that you might want to purchase from other publishers.

This way, both of my advertisers will benefit. So I just thought I'd give you that hint there, that suggestion, that request.

And I love to see all my advertisers as happy as they can be. So that's a good way of helping to please two different advertisers that both are involving selling books.

So anyway, and remember folks, as I said before, Solid Ground Christian Books is going through a financial crisis, so please help them as much as possible because not only do we want them to remain in existence, we want to remain in existence.

And Solid Ground Christian Books is a key sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Before I return to Dr.

Tim J .R. Trumper, we just have a couple of announcements to make regarding special events that we want you to attend.

First of all, the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon is going to be held. The next one is being held less than a week away.

That's Thursday, January 9th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Absolutely free of charge. Not only will you be fed for free, but you'll also be hearing a guest speaker, a really remarkable and gifted guest speaker,

Justin Peters, who is of Justin Peters Ministries. JustinPeters .org

is his website. And Justin Peters is an evangelist born with cerebral palsy who is an advocate for the physically challenged.

And he has a mission in life. One of his primary missions, next to the very first and foremost mission to proclaim the

Gospel of Jesus Christ, is to expose the deceiving, deceptive, deadly, and damning false teachers in the

Word of Faith movement. That is one of his goals in life. And he's going to be speaking at the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon on the theme

Protecting the Flock from Wolves. And not only will you be getting fed both physically and spiritually, but you'll also be getting free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. I select a title from each of these publishers, and they send me a hundred copies of each title

I select, and therefore every man who attends the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon can go home with every single title from all of these different publishers that I select.

And this is open for men in ministry leadership, whether you're a pastor, an elder, and I think they're the same thing, by the way, deacon, parachurch leader, any man in ministry leadership, and it is for men only, and we would welcome you, but please try to register no later than this coming

Monday so we know how many people to feed. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com to register, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

You can also find out more details on the Pastors Luncheon at irontripandzionradio .com irontripandzionradio .com

Then, coming up later this month, January 16th through the 18th, I'll be packing up my bags again and heading down south to the

G3 Conference. G3 standing for Gospel Grace and Glory. It's being held at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta, and it's on the theme

Worship Matters, and the roster of speakers is absolutely monumental. They include

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson of One Passion Ministries, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur, Todd Frio of Wretched TV and Radio, Derek Thomas, world -renowned

Presbyterian author, teacher, preacher, pastor, Bible conference speaker, my friend

Dr. Tom Askell, who is the executive director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry and the

Southern Baptist Convention, Stephen J. Lawson, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more. And, as you heard, John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup.

And I would go to the G3 Conference if it was only John MacArthur speaking. So delighted that he has been added to the lineup.

So, if you want to register for this conference, go to g3conference .com, please tell them that you heard about the

G3 Conference on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio. Last but not least, if you love Iron Troupe and Zion Radio, you listen to it every day, you learn from it every day, you love sharing the free, downloadable

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The address will appear on the screen when you click support at ironsharpenzironradio .com. Please, folks, we really urgently need your donations.

And I thank all of you who have been responding very recently to my SOS and have been sending in urgently needed donations.

I still do not have enough money to cover my travel costs to Atlanta to man my exhibitors booth at Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

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I do not have enough money to pay the rent for the facility where this studio is.

Please help us. We are behind on December bills, let alone

January bills. My mind is a bit puzzled as to the fact that we had 41 ,000, over 41 ,000 people download this show in October alone, and yet we only had a tiny trickle of donations come in.

As I keep repeating, the amounts are not necessarily tiny, but the number of people who are faithfully and loyally and regularly and dependably donating to us is a tiny handful, especially when compared to the over 41 ,000 of people who downloaded this show in October.

So please, if you want us to stick around, please help us out, and the caveat is never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to us, and never put your family in financial jeopardy if you are having a struggle making ends meet.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and your family. Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is obviously not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, please give as generously as you can and as frequently as you can.

Go to www .irontripandzionradio .com click support, then click to donate now. If you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, I may be able to help you.

I've listed Biblically faithful churches all over the globe, and I have helped people from all over the world find churches near them that they have joined.

Some of them have visited these churches on vacation. Some of them have recommended these churches to their family and friends and loved ones who do not have

Biblically faithful churches where they are a member. So please, if you need help finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. We truly do need your advertising dollars and as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what this program stands for then please send in an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Tim J .R.

Trumper That's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

and we are now back with our guest, Dr. Trumper, and basically, if you recall we were talking about the immediate responses to someone, how they might differ when they respond to the gospel call when they respond to the call of repentance and faith, and we did distinguish between somebody who was risking a lot more and giving up a lot more to respond to this favorably this evangelistic message of the gospel, like somebody who is a religious

Muslim rather than somebody who has a look on their face like they're watching paint dry there might be two different things going on in their minds and how do we respond

I know that we can never respond with the statement I know with unquestionable certainty you are born again, but don't we need to offer some encouragement to some of those people that respond to the gospel that far exceeds something like, well, let's see how this turns out come back again tomorrow let me see if you're still a believer or something like that no

I think you've put your finger on the issue Chris, in the sense that we take each on a case by case basis

I mean, if somebody outwardly, at least from a human perspective has absolutely nothing to gain from saying they're a

Christian, of course they've got heaps to gain spiritually but they have nothing outwardly to gain, then you're going to give a lot more credit to a profession of faith than somebody who may, like the crowds around Jesus be interested in him because they have everything to gain from a human perspective we not only have to assess whether they have faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ turning from their sins unto God, but we also need to assess whether they are ready and willing to come under the lordship or the kingship of Jesus Christ, and so I think with the case of a

Muslim coming to a profession of faith where they are prepared to give up their family relations they are prepared to undergo baptism they may in fact face death then you're going to give a lot more credence to that profession of faith than you might from somebody coming from a culturally

Christian background. Now that doesn't mean to say that automatically somebody whose life is endangered because they make a profession of faith, that that's going to be viewed as an authentic profession of faith, there might be other psychological issues going on as to why somebody would against all the odds profess faith in Christ, but in the normal run of things you're going to evaluate that very differently

I think from somebody who liked the crowds around Jesus when he gave the parable, hunting him down for the food and for the next miracle, but when it comes to spiritual things suddenly become quite cool and quite distant.

But I think the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 18, it's a chapter on assurance of grace and salvation.

Paragraph 1 is very helpful when it says that such as believe, truly believe in the

Lord Jesus and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life certainly be assured that they are in a state of grace.

And so what we'd say to them, we'd encourage them and say you are showing the evidences that we would expect from somebody authentically

Christian. But at the same token, I do think, especially in these days, you may in fact be alluding to my father's response to my own profession of faith, that there is a place for saying in certain circumstances, well let's wait and see.

But I think when you do that, as my father did in my instance and proved to be correct, you need to have a pretty good knowledge of the person, and you need to have a pretty good knowledge of their context before saying, well you know, you need to ensure that Jesus is

Lord of your life as well as some cost -free profession of faith.

Right, I think you need both. Yes, in fact even when it comes to a person who had been a professing believer,

I have heard recently, I think it might even be Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, when someone says to you,

I have fear that I may not be a truly born again Christian, your immediate response should not be, oh sure you are!

You're a member of the church, you've been baptized, oh come on, get over that! I mean, very often,

I don't think Dr. Lawson meant to say that this was always the response, but very often the response to be, well perhaps you're not, let's talk about this.

Guide them through the scriptures that have the teachings of the fruit that must be present for somebody to have confidence and peace of mind that they are truly born again.

That's a very serious question or statement that someone may make to you, and we shouldn't take it flippantly and automatically assume just because they've been a member of a church for decades, or even a pastor.

If a pastor has a dark night of the soul and starts speaking that way, we might even want to have time to pause and reflect together with that person on that very significant statement or self -evaluation.

Yes, we're not wanting to take away true assurance, but we're not wanting to give a false assurance either, and that's why sometimes we who minister the word are called physicians of the soul, that we need to understand the person who's before us as best we can, to understand the context and of course to apply the word that we're meant to know to them as best we can.

But that's why we talk about a credible profession of faith. Assurance, because it's a gift of the

Holy Spirit, is infallible where it's a true assurance. But when somebody makes a profession of faith, you're not looking for an infallible perspective on that profession of faith, but you are looking for what we call a credible profession of faith that shows some of the signs that Scripture points to as arising from true faith in Jesus Christ and true repentance, sincere repentance unto

God. We have, oh by the way, I want to let our listener know, I believe that was

RJ in White Plains who sent in a question. We want to let you know that you've won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

Christianese of Christ, by our guest Dr. J .R. Trumper, so please make sure you give us your full emailing address so that cvbbs .com

can ship you that book. And thanks again for the question. We have an anonymous listener who says, one thing that frustrates me about the common practice of Reformed churches when someone requests baptism is that they are very typically placed into classes that sometime involve weeks of instruction, perhaps filling out question and answer sheets or studying various books in addition to the

Bible, before they are given the green light to receive the ordinance of baptism.

I don't see anything like that in the scripture, and I also understand that we have to be cautious about giving false assurance to anyone that says they believe in Christ and want to be baptized, but at the same time, there seems to be no evidence of a great delay in giving that person what they are asking for involving the ordinance.

I think that's a very good question, and I think that I agree with a lot of what

I just heard or read, I should say. In fact, I am troubled by churches especially that will say, we are having our

Easter Sunday baptism at the beach, and therefore people may be waiting a year to be baptized because of this big celebration that they want to have with all these spectators.

There's nothing like that in the Bible, in my opinion, and I know I'm probably insulting a lot of people that listen to the show that are even

Reformed and yet do those kinds of things, but if you could respond. Yes, well again,

I think you take it on a case -by -case basis. I think what is very relevant in the

New Testament where baptism is instituted by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 28, 18 -20 in the context of the gospel going out to the world from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the upmost parts of the earth, that obviously there is a lot of people going to come into the church, specifically

Gentiles, who are first -generation believers, and they would need to know apostolic doctrine.

I mean Acts 2, verse 42, they committed themselves to the apostles' doctrine, fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayers.

So although the New Testament doesn't necessarily explicitly lay it out, evidently those who are impacted by the gospel and the presentation of the gospel itself is substantive, we know that from passages like Acts 17.

They were under an ongoing educational process. So I would want to, and I did this when

I was a pastor, say, well, let's look at the person who wants to make profession of faith. If they've grown up in the church, and they've been under the ministry of the

Word, then that's a different instance from somebody who's coming out of a secular environment, who's had no pre -education about the gospel, who may be from a

Muslim background, and we have that experience, then you want to teach them the fundamentals of the faith, and something like the

Apostles' Creed would be a very valuable way to do that. So on the one hand,

I think wherever the Holy Spirit is at work, balance is the key. And you won't, you don't rush people into making, and press gang people into making profession of faith, or baptism, but there's no reason to drag your feet either, and that's why we talk about,

I think, a credible profession of faith. We're not looking for something that's highly punctiliar and authoritarian, but we're doing due diligence at the same time.

Is this person concerned to be diligent to make their calling and election sure, and are they showing at least the rudimentary evidences of being a

Christian? Because once somebody is baptized, and the profession of faith turns out to be false, then it's a lot more difficult a situation than to delay at least a little bit if you're uncertain.

Now what about one of the reasons that I gave that people, that churches and pastors delay a baptism?

It's merely because they want to schedule a spectacular ceremony, perhaps on Easter, or just perhaps when the weather gets warmer and they want to all go to the beach and do it.

Do you think that those are sufficient reasons to delay obedience in the life of a disciple of Christ, where technically,

I mean, most biblically sound churches that I know of will not even allow a person to participate in the

Lord's Supper if they have not been baptized. So, is that kind of a thing?

No, I understand that you are from a paedo -baptist background, and obviously this kind of thing is less prevalent in your communion, but at the same time, you obviously are aware there are people that come from non -Christian backgrounds who, as adults, have never even been baptized, even in accordance to a

Presbyterian understanding, or a paedo -baptist understanding of baptism. So, do you think that this kind of delay is wrong?

Yes, I do, because this is at the heart of the book I've written, that what's ultimately important is not the conversion experience and the razzmatazz that goes along with celebrating that, but it is, according to Jesus, the life of discipleship.

And in our sort of culture, where we like the big occurrences, the big events, yes, we want to make a big splash about someone having been converted.

I want to wait to go to Israel so that I can be baptized in the Jordan River. I just don't...

That annoys me, actually, because you're delaying repentance. I'm sorry, not repentance.

You're delaying an obedience to that specific command of God, just because you think there's something more wonderful about being baptized in the same water as Jesus Christ was baptized in.

And there's almost a superstition, I think, attached to that. Yeah, well, Jesus would say, well, it's the state of convertedness, the life of obedience, which has the longer -lasting impact upon those around us, and the razzmatazz of big events in which numerous people are, you know, baptized.

Now, I'm not saying that people cannot be converted when they look on at that, but in our day and age, there tends to be quite a lot of skepticism, people asking, well, let's see how long they last.

So, what the book tries to do, and I think what the Scripture tries to do, is say, we need to get back to putting the emphasis upon discipleship rather than a momentary conversion experience, although we certainly want people to say they are converted, they believe, they repent.

Okay, well, thank you, Anonymous, and if you give me your full name and address, obviously

I'm not going to identify you on the air, but just email me your full name and address, we will have cvbbs .com

ship you a free copy of the book we are addressing by Dr. Tim J.

R. Trumper, Christianese or Christ, and we thank Dr. Trumper for providing these books for a limited number of our listeners who submit questions.

We have a listener, and you're going to have to, perhaps, I don't really understand fully what she is asking, perhaps you could answer this more clearly than I ever could, in fact, you could answer anything,

I'm sure, more clearly than I ever could. No, I don't know about that. But, Mary in Cork, Ireland asks,

Is the parable more applicable to believers' maturity or salvation of the unbeliever?

I'm not really sure exactly what she means in reference to this specific parable, but if you could comment, maybe you do, maybe you have a better insight into what you say.

Well, I can certainly comment on my experience of writing the book, Mary, and that is to say that the more

I studied the parable, the more I realized that there are numerous strands of thought going through the parable.

First of all, you have to deal with the theme of the kingdom of heaven, which is the dominant theme of Matthew's gospel.

Then you have to deal with the immediate context of the crowd around Jesus, and then you have to deal, after the fact, with the fact that some who profess to be disciples of Jesus, when they heard his heart saying, going over to John 6, they then turned around and walked off.

So, there are these multiple strands, multiple applications running through.

On the one hand, the parable is applicable to preachers, and of course Jesus gives the interpretation of the parable to his immediate apostles, who are going to go out and preach the gospel, but then it also has application to those who hear the word, and how are they going to respond to the word.

So what I did in the book was to say, listen, there are at least four categories of people that we could think of in relationship to the parable.

There are those of the nations who weren't around Jesus when he gave the parable, so it's not really relevant in the immediate context to them, although it becomes relevant to us today.

And then there's the crowds, and I'm especially burdened for the crowds,

I think Jesus was in the parable too, who like to hang around Jesus, they want to get something from Jesus, but they're not interested in him as a savior, they're certainly not interested in him reigning over their lives.

And then there are the professing disciples, as I said, who say, yes, I believe,

I repent, but it turns out, as was the case in my own experience growing up, to be a spurious profession of faith.

When the hard sayings come, then they walk off, and the shocking truth is that Jesus lets them go.

And then you have, fourthly, the apostles who are true disciples and those who are gathered around them who really understand that Jesus is their king and not only their savior, and they go out and demonstrate the fruits of their surrender to Jesus by the lives they live thereafter.

So, you've got all these multiple strands, multiple emphases, and they're all woven to the parable, and I tried to do justice to that, and we have a final conclusion and afterward where the parable ends.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. And then they say, well, who are we then?

Are we amongst the nations disinterested or ignorant of Jesus? Are we amongst the crowds of cultural

Christians who sort of go to church, Easter, Christmas, funerals, weddings, but we're only interested in Jesus as long as he improves our life here and now?

Or are we professing to be Christian, but it turns out we're actually not? Or are we authentically saved?

So, it's more complicated than we might at first think, and yet it's not so complicated that the parable cannot speak to people in various conditions and circumstances.

And in fact, something that you mentioned is interesting in that it involves a key tenant of the

Reformed faith. When we go to John 6, and we go to it, let's start at 63, verse 63, it is the

Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life, but there are some of you who do not believe, for Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

And he was saying, for this reason I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the

Father. Obviously, that blows out of the water the false notion that every human being has some kind of spark of divinity, has some kind of light prior to regeneration that would give them an innate ability to savingly come to faith in Christ before their heart of stone is removed and replaced with the heart of flesh by Christ.

And it's interesting that I have had Roman Catholic friends who will say that in verse 66, where we read, as a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore, they will say that is because these people, these listeners rejected the

Mass, they rejected transubstantiation because of the earlier verses when

Jesus is talking about the bread and so on. But it's interesting that that's not when they walked away.

They walked away when Jesus said, as I mentioned just moments ago, that no one can come to him unless it is granted by the

Father. For this reason, I've said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the

Father. So, that is something that obviously a lot of non -reformed people completely gloss over or have to get involved in eisegesis to explain.

Well, I think the natural man, whether he's professing Christian or not, just doesn't like that which puts an axe to the root of his pride.

And there Jesus does that when he says that you can't come to the Father unless it's granted you by the

Father. And that is offensive to the natural man. What I focused upon in the book, at least in the afterward, is what

John says there in John 6, that these were actually not members of the crowd, but these were people who were professing to be disciples of Jesus.

Exactly. Yeah, so that's where I think the words of Peter in 2

Peter 1 about being more diligent to make your calling in election sure is really relevant.

So I'm not trying to undermine people's assurance, but I'm saying make sure it is that assurance which is the gift of the

Holy Spirit and not a presumption, human presumption. We're going to our final break right now, and if you have a question that you want to ask,

I would send it in quickly because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com

Don't go away, we'll be back after these messages with more of Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper and our discussion on Christianese or Christ, his latest book.

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can ship that out to you. A question that I hear frequently, that Reformed Christians and Reformed pastors and Reformed churches even disagree with one another over in an in -house debate or disagreement, there are some who will not allow to enter into membership of a church someone who is

Arminian they have embraced Christ they believe that they are sinners and the only reason they can be the only way they can be made right with God is to trust in his sinless life his atoning death his bodily resurrection and ascension to be seated at the right hand of the

Father without that they cannot have any hope of salvation but they are not understanding or in agreement with the specific tenets known as Calvinism the five points etc there are some that said no we do not want that person to become a member others including the church where I was saved

I was saved at a Reformed Baptist Church Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville which is now known as Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island after a merger with a church in Merrick but I remember when

I was being examined for baptism I requested baptism and I told them

I don't know if I'm ever going to believe in this Calvinism stuff and they said well we will still gladly baptize you because we believe that you are repentant that you have demonstrated saving faith and we are going to be patient to hope that you one day and hopefully one day soon understand and embrace the other things that we teach here but we just don't want you to undermine these teachings to others in the church and I agree to that but what is your opinion on that well

I think it's problematic when we make it harder to get into the visible church than we get and make it then

Christ has made it to get in heaven right so so going by the practice of center form church where I was for ten years by I favor that practice that in the membership you reflect the fact that the church is

Catholic with a small c it's universal and you expect an understanding of the teaching of the

Apostles Creed for example plus credible profession of personal faith in the Lord Jesus but in order for that to work you really need to hold the line on entrance into office bearing in the church so if the church in our in our context says it's a reformed church and office bearers are to subscribe to a certain summaries of biblical truth then then you need to uphold the line on on those subscriptions

I'd like you to have about 90 seconds to summarize what you want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave this program well for myself as for us all that we would make in this day of of a drift that we would make our calling an election sure and if we are claiming to be

Christ that we'd be surrendered to him and that we've come together to pray for the followers of the seed of God's Word because what they are trying to do only

God can do and we're asking that God would bless their endeavors that the soil of people's hearts would be changed that it becomes a good soil and that fruit comes from that and that's our societies our communities are transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ a man well you know it has been such a wonderful privilege to have you back on the program today dr.

Trumper well for privilege of mine I look forward to your frequent return to our interpreters our radio

I want to make sure there are listeners have your website from his fullness calm from his fullness calm

I also want to remind our listeners for the men in the audience that it's less than a week away the iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon here in Carlisle Pennsylvania featuring speaker

Justin Peters on the theme protecting the flock from wolves if you want to register some any email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com we would love to have as many men in ministry leadership attend as possible and we'd like to have your

RSVP by this Monday but I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner have a safe blessed and happy weekend and Christ honoring