Can the LDS trust their feelings?

LDS Eternal Progression and the Question of Becoming Gods

Hi ladies, can we give you a gospel track tonight? You guys have any sort of faith background or anything. Okay, we're Christians from a local Baptist Church and we're just trying to get in conversations with our LDS neighbors.

Yeah, we we sometimes show our Christians friends like, you know, some of the dialogue we have. Pretty cool. Yeah, you guys were you raised in it or and you're from. No, oh I always. I used to live in a Ventura County northwest of LA.

Yeah, and when I visit, you know friends or family you see the huge temple. Wrap the free. No. It looks like it's like pretty majestic. Yeah, it's like a big castle. Yeah. I always remember that.

Sure, it's like a non-denominational like.

Is it that Gary Johnson does it. These interfaith dialogues or something intersect.

I think it's intersect. I think it's called warehouse worship. Oh, oh, that's different. I've heard of intersect, but I have not heard this.

Well, we we always like to get you know, our LDS neighbors opinion about things like There's these really obscure doctrines but they there's pretty significant in that they they put a big divide between Christianity and Mormonism or Church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that would be like eternal progression you know that as As Man is God once was as God is man may become that's the Prophet.

Lorenzo. Snow. You have the King Paul discourse by Joseph Smith. He said you've got to learn to become God's one day and so I know I know in a sense that the Bible describes we will We are sons and daughters of living God.

We've been adopted in By by Christ we've been adopted by what Christ has done and that Philippians chapter 1 he who began a good work in us will complete until the day of Christ Jesus and and we will inherit As Jesus leaves away he leaves.

He says I'm preparing a place for you. I think It is my understanding biblically that he's preparing a place that we can Glorify God and enjoy him forever and to be in his presence forever The one true God and so when I look at like the doctrine of eternal progression I go, but that doesn't make sense if if we can Take on the deity in a divine nature like God, then we've just become another God, right?

Yeah. Yeah, so I just want to say that now you can please.

Experience, Prayer, and the Search for Truth

The best answer that I heard explained to me I'm super clumsy. So I know you're getting around from my we were missionary companions. No kidding. Yeah. In Florida. In Florida. But I think my kind of like you're both in San Diego.

Yeah. That is wild.

We were the only like Californians in our mission and so we were like all the crazy people from Utah like we can be the normal ones from California.

I Mean my take it always has been on it is how how can a mortal mind comprehend immortal topics, right? I mean, okay. God is I don't to me like the complexities of the afterlife or something that we're never going to understand.

Okay in this life. I believe that God is our father, you know, that's. Definitely I mean I shouldn't say are I am I like from my personal experience my testimony my belief of things and so. You know, it makes sense.

Children grow up to be like their parents. I mean, I I watch myself so many things I learned from my mom, you know, like I'm not my mom, but I'm very similar to my mom in a lot of ways. And so I think that my mom My mom didn't have me as a child and have the expectation that she wanted me to remain in the state of a five-year-old.

She wanted me to grow up. She wanted me to be independent. And so I kind of think with God that I don't think we're ever gonna replace God. I don't think I'm gonna be able to stand on a pedestal next to God.

It's like hey, I'm the same as you but I I do believe that justice I believe our pattern of parenting is reflective of it. He wants us to grow. He wants us to progress. You know, he expects us to become as he is and so I don't think I don't think we replace God will always be our God, but I think that I don't think that our progression is in this life.

You know, I think that would be kind of sad to me if you think about it I I think of my time during COVID right sitting inside for a year was like torture because we're not doing anything. We're not going anywhere.

We're not changing whatever and I think an eternity of that.

Then what would be the point of this life? Okay, so let me ask you a follow-up. So I. I've heard I've heard. From other LDS folks almost exactly the whole God wants us to be like him. Like our father wants us to be like him.

Wouldn't our earthly fathers. They say that they they say that often to be honest. And so besides like being trained in that besides hearing that and testifying to that at Sacrament meetings or or being trained in that in the you know in the missionary handbook or anything like where do you? come full full on with that truth.

Where where do you? see that as a truth in the Book of Mormon or the Bible or The DNC's or the Pearl of Grace like where do you go? You know, I've heard this so much. Yeah, and we all say it often and.

But where do we derive that. Is it just verbally from the prophet so.

I mean, yes, I could I could pull up scriptures for you. I mean, I'm my scriptures on my phone. We have a whole list of things that yes, that'll support that. Oh, okay to me. That's not what really matters, you know, like okay.

So yes, it is We want to have like primary sources to turn here, right? But for me I feel like my relationship with God isn't based on what I've been told or what I've read because I Read a lot of textbooks every day.

I don't have any like connection to them to me. Everything having to do with God is having an experience with God. And so to me the point of like why do I read the Book of Mormon every day because when I read the Book of Mormon I feel peace and so to me I associate that with I'm feeling God I see and so with a lot of these things I Just personally I'm sure your opinion too, but like I feel like I take things to God in prayer questions.

And that's how I come to find truth for myself. I don't I mean, yes There's a lot of supporting doctrine scriptures and stuff that I appreciate and I know those scriptures and stuff in it yes, I believe they're true, but I think it's more the experience that I have with my religion more than like Someone told me to believe this and so I do okay if that if that was my pattern I wouldn't do it because People tell me to work out and maybe go to the gym once a month like, you know.

Like we're told all these things and I don't do them and for me. That's how I always know is that it's different because it's something that I want to do. I feel drawn to do and I think it's because of that experience.

I have that's created my belief instead of a.

Piece of paper. Okay, so so with that. What what differing what differentiates your experience of determining truth? You largely said that your experience and in the prayer and and that kind of that Assurance through that process shows you truth.

What differentiates your experience from like a genuine Muslim who who says we found truth? We found truth in the Quran. Jesus was just a prophet, you know. He didn't die for sinners and stuff like that.

And and so even the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Joseph Smith The founder would say all their professors are corrupt. He said that of course largely about the Protestant denominations in that day and about the Roman Catholics.

But I think that that could apply for especially those, you know Who deny Christ outright and they say the Muslim says I've had an experience I know that God is true. The Jehovah's Witness says I Know Jesus.

He you know, he was the first and best of beings. He's Michael the Archangel, which is not. So what's that so I guess what I'm getting at real quick we have to we have to go okay, there's a Subjective subjectives and objectives.

There's solid rock truth. And so there's a whole lot of this relativism going around in our world today going I've got my truth. You're got you've got your truth. But if we both have say we have truth and we contradict each other each other in our truths.

Then one of us is wrong. So I guess what I'm getting.

Because I believe okay, that's. But God doesn't just love members of your church or my church or the Muslim church or any church. I believe that God is our God. It's a God that we share, you know, it's not just like my God versus your God.

But what about salvation? Eternal life, so that's only promise to those.

All I'm just really quick, you know, you're asking of like, okay. So what makes what makes my church sure completely true and other people's partially right because that's their claim.

You gotta be baptized in our church.

There's so many answers to it. I mean, it sounds like you're very well-rehearsed in our doctrine. So I'm sure you know, I'm really not Described it to people on our missions that seem to make the most sense to me is You know in the Bible like okay, Matthew Mark Luke.

Jesus is there right? I guess their eyewitnesses to it. So okay there Jesus is actually present there. They're writing about people who have met Jesus. Okay, so like Jesus establishes this church I mean Jesus was baptized.

We baptized using the exact same words that Jesus was baptized by I'm sure you do too A lot of people do. Yeah, very similar. Matthew 20 baptized in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. Yeah, and so We have all these things and so we always kind of described it in an analogy just because that's how I visualize things.

But if you visualize like when when Jesus Christ was there It was a perfect glass table. And so like the four legs of the table you can imagine being prophets Apostles priesthood power and Jesus Christ.

And so that's kind of what we visualize is those four Important supporting legs, whatever. So obviously Jesus Christ was taken out. Eventually, the prophets and apostles were killed left the earth. So then the priesthoods gone in the glass table I've actually never heard this analogy.

Okay, good. Okay, so then you know the glass table hits the floor and it shatters, right? And so there's all these pieces of truth. And so I I don't think God would ever like abandon people completely and so I believe that without Without that prophetic leadership, but there wasn't someone to to help Explain what the truth was and so I believe that people came and picked up pieces of these puzzles Pieces of this glass and tried to build their own table.

But so the Buddha's everyone you would say Yeah.

They try to build truth for themselves, but without all four of those elements you can't have the full thing. Okay I believe that when Joseph Smith came that he was able to restore that glass table. And so that's my answer of of why I believe we have that.

You know, and I as I'm sure you've heard we believe our restoration is ongoing right? It's not done. It's not finished. Continual and so I mean, I believe that that glass table still being perfected today but that's kind of my understanding of how we have all these different because our religion believes.

I'm gonna need to. Okay, I can't believe how many things are so similar in our religion to Judaism that there's so many similarities. That I never knew about. I was not well-versed in the Bible. I had no idea.

But I think that to me that kind of explains how we have all these pockets of truth and that we needed a prophet again. Why would Jesus call prophets and non-prophets now? It's not you know. The processes of God don't go out of style.

It's not like Oh prophets don't matter. You know that but I think that Joseph was called as a prophet to be a prophet. We have a prophet today just to continue just as Jesus had to come and establish his doctrine for us I believe.

Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and the Great Apostasy

Okay.

No, that makes sense. And you mean you made me think of with the glass table thing almost about like Romans 1 and Romans 2 where it says basically. You know. It talks about for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.

Of men who suppress the truth and unrighteousness and they exchange the worship of the creature rather than the Creator. But it goes on to say. For even though they know God they do not regard him as God.

They don't worship him as God anymore. And then it says in Romans chapter 2 says that the law of God is written on their hearts. So that's that's that would be. My Understanding is that it's not that truth is scattered everywhere and everyone has a little bit of it.

It's that God has made us in his image. In Genesis chapter 1 and 2 He says and I've made men and women women in my image and with that He's written his law upon our hearts. And so that intrinsically. Inside of us even on an island in Papua New Guinea.

Who've never heard the gospel or read the Bible there's even someone who's murdered. Another tribe tribal member and they know it's wrong because God has written his law. Yeah, yeah, so that's what I would say but and then the the prophecy thing in modern-day prophets.

We would of course disagree with that. Hebrews chapter 1 says that Jesus Christ is the final prophet in these last days. God it speaks for Jesus Christ. He's complete his revelation, but do you guys have anything else?

To ask these nice ladies or I don't know.

I'd say in terms of the the glass table you're talking about almost like the great apostasy, right? We're falling away the breaking. Oh States in. Judas has earnestly contend for the faith. That was once for all.

On this rock I'll establish my church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. And Jesus himself says don't be sad when I leave. For one is greater than I was coming the helper is coming who will guide you into all truth, right?

The Holy Spirit is coming. So just because Jesus goes away doesn't mean one leg of the table is gone. Actually, he leaves us the gift of the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Christ that dwells within us for all who believe in Jesus.

So the question is is how do we know that the prophecies and the revelation that Joseph Smith gave is actually true? That's that's the question. How do you know?

My big thing when it came to understanding Joseph Smith. So I grew up my parents both members their parents members like my family is actually directly from Brigham Young. So like Wow. So when I kind of came to it It was kind of like this thing that I felt was like engraved on my brain like you have to believe this.

Right, right everything that's taken. It's only doctrine and I thought my parents were crazy. How is that. Like yeah, I don't get it. I don't I don't see that like how would God only like limit his word.

Full word just to one church. Like why isn't it to everyone else like that doesn't seem fair. So when I graduated high school, I went on my own little hunt. I went to many different religious meetings.

Protestant. I went to a Lutheran meeting a Catholic meeting. I actually had a friend who was Jewish and I went to one of her meetings. Yeah I can't remember the other ones because there's a lot of them.

Yeah, but I went on this big old launch bill trying to figure out where I felt was right now I think my biggest mistake that I made was I took out all forms of doctrinal based things meaning any form of Scripture.

I took the Book of Mormon away. I took the Bible away any other churches if they had the Quran, whatever it was I just got rid of the Word of God and was like, all right I'm gonna figure this out on my own and I'm only gonna go through what I feel.

Which I think I was wrong for doing. I think I should have continued to like take as many of the documents as I could. Actual doctrinal because for me now. Yeah, now I look at like Scripture no matter what it is.

If it's scriptural base if it's about Jesus Christ, then that's where I can find Jesus Christ is through actual hardcore. Like a book I could hold. Oh, yeah or on my phone if it's the app or whatever.

But I remember sitting in a Protestant.

That's a Protestant, yeah, they're all Protestant. Yeah nomination. So anyways, yeah, keep going. I'm listening.

I was sitting in a Presbyterian meeting with one of my friends and I was listening to I believe they called him a reverend. I can't remember exactly. So I was listening to him speak and he was talking about charity and how we need to love our neighbors and kind of a big classic school that I think everyone hears and I was just sitting there and I was like I love everything.

This guy is saying and I feel a lot of peace, but I feel something missing right now. And I don't know what it is. And I remember I went home and prayed that night and I was just like, all right, listen I've gone to all these churches I feel really good in all of them.

Like I haven't found one that I feel it's weird or anything like they all feel great. Like I feel Jesus in all of them but why don't I feel like I Feel like he's there with me like I just feel like I'm there feeling good.

Why is it don't I don't feel Jesus sitting next to me? And I remember that next Sunday. I went to church with my parents. And I was sitting there and all of a sudden I could feel like someone was next to me.

And I'm like, this is where it's at. So and I sat there and I was like, you know what? I feel like this is where I need to be at and from there. I was then directed to go on a mission. I went on a mission not having a testimony of anything in the church besides the fact that I thought families could be together forever and that was about it and I went out there and I was like to everyone I'm like, listen, I don't even know what I'm saying.

But I just feel like God told me to come here I don't know why but God said get a name tag on and get out there. Yeah, I guess if you're telling me, okay I'll go and I went home learning. Okay, I think I know where I'm going and I'm still in that process of having completely firm.

Because like she said, I think it's an ongoing thing. I'm constantly learning. Where I feel whole and so far I haven't found it anywhere else I know that I feel whole within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Because that is where I have felt closest to Jesus. Yeah and I think reason being like when you mentioned that the Holy Spirit and everything when I was baptized like They gave us the extra thing of you have the Holy Spirit with you everywhere.

I think that's how it is for all of us. We all have the Holy Spirit. There's one person that is exempt from having the Holy Spirit might be less depending on the things you're doing but everyone has access to the Holy Spirit and I think because of that we all have an ability to hear God and Whenever God comes to you to say where it's supposed to go.

That's where you're supposed to go I think no matter who you are if you can do anything to get close to Jesus, whatever it is.

Care get close to Jesus. That's all that matters. Yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I accept Experience. But the question for example, I use like a scriptural foundation. So I appreciate what you said, too.

Yeah, I'd be stupid if I said, oh man, you didn't experience something that you obviously experienced, right? Yeah, how do we know that what you experience is actually true is the question? So I think that's what faith is, right?

How do you know that there's a God because so question question for you and I like placing it like this. Just a little bit about my background. I was actually I had two state callings before I resigned and I turned missionary went through the temple all night.

I actually got a stamp of approval by Elder Dorff to teach Mormon doctrine. So I actually do know your doctrine. But let's just take this post for an example, okay, so we're talking about. We're talking about.

So if we take this pole, for example, it's a free country, right? So you've heard my all the different religions I could say here and worship this pole. Yes. Okay, but I can. Now here but here's to be here's the bigger question and this is what we're talking about with truth.

If I were to call this pole Jesus Christ, does that make me a Christian? Why what's your definition what truth is your definition foundation?

To me Jesus Christ is a person he came to earth. I mean a person is not a pole, you know.

It's kind of like it's my experience that that's Jesus.

Then how is that different? Well, I don't think I can tell you what your experience is, you know. It's standing as an outsider. No, I don't think this is Jesus Christ. I think Jesus Christ is a person and I think that it takes a person to make you feel something, you know.

Like I don't I don't feel any connection to this pole, you know. Maybe you do or this hypothetical person does but I I don't think that that's something that I don't think I can tell you. You're wrong because it's your experience.

It's your opinion and I can only tell you for me How do I know that that Joseph Smith is a prophet? It's because it's something I felt, you know, and it's great.

And that's and that's what we're saying is is it says in the Bible that you need to test the spirits. So it says that even if an angel comes down from heaven and preaches you a different gospel than what has been preached Let him be a curse.

So it's not we're not talking about Like demons or anything else. We're saying even if an angel were to come down and go. Hey, this is a different thing. Let him be a curse. So are you familiar with the Bereans?

You take a New Testament. You will get to know them. Okay. So in Acts Paul goes and visits the Bereans in Thessalonica. You're familiar Thessalonians. Okay, so this is Bereans. So when he goes and speaks to him, right?

Most people are like when he speaks, they're like, oh, this is Paul. Oh Paul says I gotta listen to Paul. This is an apostle, right? You know what the Bereans do and he calls them the most noble people.

Do you know what he does? You know what they do? They listen to him for a second and they grab the scriptures and they're like Hold on a second and they go back and they read it. They're like no no, no, it matches up.

We're good. Continue and he goes. I love y 'all. He's like because you didn't take me at face value and go well just because you are Paul. What you're saying is true. No, you went let me test you for a second.

Hold on. Okay, you're good continue. So my question and it was brought up before is the King Follett discourse where Joseph Smith When he said that we you can learn to become God's I'm gonna pull back the thing if God has not always been God I'm gonna pull back that veil.

He directly contradicted Things like Isaiah 43 10 where it says there's no God formed before me neither shall there be after me. In the sermon in the grove. He actually said that God was once a man who's exalted in the current position.

He's in that's a direct contradiction into those scriptures so when I'm faced with that because of my Standard of truth and which I would say objective is the Bible and I take that as my standard of truth.

I look at that and go. Sorry, that doesn't add up whether I feel something or not. That doesn't matter because I know in Jeremiah. It says your heart is deceitful and wicked above all things. You shall know it so my heart can deceive me.

Let's just take people. I use an example, you know crazy Utah Mormons. I get it. Okay, but how many guys on that campus right now are praying about a girl that they're supposed to marry and how many? And how many of them how many of them are gonna get enough.

Not a lot of them and why but how many of them are but most of them will they get a no and it's not because and it's not because they're Praying and connecting. It's because they're feeling hormones and they're feeling feelings and they're like, oh god tells me and I'm like Did he though should we test this just a little bit before you decide to go propose?

Let's not go in the BYU super day, you know go out for yogurt and take him to the temple and propose.

He knows so I don't even know what he's talking about. There's some Utah stuff. All right.

Okay, but. But here's the thing though and you and you can already see it coming from, California. Other places you're the minority and I get that I've been in those I've been in those places too. And when you're the minority you kind of hunker down you get a little bit closer together.

But you're gonna be a little bit looser on stuff because the central authority if you have any church in the central authority the further. They get from Rome. Catholicism is gonna be a lot different.

But if you go to Rome It's gonna be like yeah, very I mean they still do they still do masses in Latin in Rome the further you get away from Salt Lake. You're gonna have some differences in what's going on, but we can know but what do we know from the scriptures?

We can test things by their fruit, right? Utah and Idaho the way these LVS people are here. It's the fruit. They're in they're in greater majority so that they don't have they're not checked by anybody at that point.

They're not. I mean this the laws that are made here are made from members and. So there's no checking that goes on. There's not that outside force going guys. Maybe we should check this and so you can see it.

So my question is so I can you can see these things and you so in order to have objective truth. Objective which is what we're talking not subjective subjective is I feel this. Okay, because I could have someone that comes by that feels like it's okay to punch Pastor Wade here and he's like he's been in my experience that you punch Wade.

Okay, and he's like I feel great about it, buddy. We need to talk. Let's not punch people and we have objectives of why we I can even bring up scripture. It's like you don't it's not okay. But without a moral standard to stand on that then you get things like atheism.

Which there any atheist that tries to claim a moral standard? Doesn't have it. It's a pitiless indifference. There's no good or bad in their thing. They're just bags of meat. Fizzing at each other. Yes.

Yeah, so If you're subjective with doctrine or a truth when it comes to the Bible because I know the eighth article of faith. We believe in the Bible as long as it's translate correctly, we also play the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.

I got you. But if you believe but if I were to line up. But if I were to line up 30 LDS people and ask him fine which parts of the Bible are mistranslated. It's all subjective. And in my experience when I'm out here.

Even talking and having these discussions a lot of times the ones that are mistranslated are there when we bring up like Isaiah 43 10. Like well, that's mistranslated. I'm like, well, I can bring it from the Hebrew if we if we want to talk but that but.

So what I'm saying is if you're subjective with that. It really puts you in no better position than the atheist of having that. Where's the moral standard coming from you have to have the objective thing to test things by?

Unlike what the world will tell you the postmodern your truth is my truth world. You have to have something to base it on because we're talking about salvation. We're talking about everlasting life. This is something that this is bigger odds than anything in Vegas right now.

So you have to have something to base that on if you do not.

Other than I it feels good. Let's take feeling right. So so what?

I'll be completely honest. I feel like you know as missionaries We had a lot of these conversations and as I'm sure you'd expect we're in the deep south of Florida, right? Back in this one. Yeah, and I guess like from my experience and maybe you have different experiences you're doing the same thing we were doing that.

We always called it like Bible bashing when we'd like read scriptures back and forth to each other whatever that we did a lot that like I Felt like no good came from it because in the Book of Mormon, I'm sure you're familiar with this intention is of the devil 35.

But I mean we we believe that like you can feel the spirit the strongest when you're testifying personal experiences and so. Maybe you're gonna call it subjective, but I think a little bit. It's kind of I have my beliefs you have yours I feel like it's a little bit silly for me to pull out a bunch of scriptures to read to you because You you don't believe what I believe in that in the Book of Mormon.

I Do believe in the Joseph Smith translations of the Bible, maybe I'm gonna be wrong one day, you know. Maybe we're gonna be before the judgment of God and I'm gonna be totally wrong. But I think for me like in having this conversation, it makes more sense to discuss experiences rather than because we do.

I mean a lot of these things that you're talking about I'm really familiar with a lot of like modern conference talks or modern prophets have addressed these issues and answered them and Obviously, you're not gonna take President Nelson's word for it, you know.

That's the same as you know, any other guy on the street saying Whatever and so I guess that's just kind of my opinion. I think it's something we you know, my mom. She's a convert actually both my parents are converts to the church.

And so I asked my mom a lot, you know. How did you know like? What what was the difference and she just said? Her realization is when she started meeting with the missionaries and she started reading the Book of Mormon.

She started praying that something in her life changed that she was noticeably happier and when they invited her to be baptized. She just made the decision that. That the church would make her life better, you know and by living things like the law of chastity.

She could avoid so much pain and she had not lived the Word of Wisdom before and when she started living the Word of Wisdom. She saw such a big difference in her life. And so she said she decided that she could feel that it was right and my mom's a pharmacist.

And so I mean there's she sends me articles about coke it all day every day. There's solid proof for everything and so she said her proof was a feeling which is something she was not used to having in the past that she was used to having hard documentation of this is my answer and that that that that changed and that she decided if I'm totally wrong on all of this that I Would I living better and a happier life because I love this than if I didn't and so so what you're talking about is.

Occam's razor. Are you familiar with Occam's razor? So Okay, so he would he Occam was a philosopher and he actually became a Christian but his razor argument was exactly what you said. He's like I'd rather Live a life as a Christian for going these things because it even if I'm wrong and it's gonna be better off.

Than if I were to not believe it and have it be true. I'm risking a lot more than if I'm going the other way.

Grace, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Right and I think the other misconception too is I think sometimes like We feel a lot more divisive than we really are. I think we're very similar on most things. I mean, I think that Good Christian belief to me is good Christian belief that at the end of the day I mean, why are you out here?

You're here to help and serve people and like if you bring that's what they told on our mission if you can bring one person To God you've done your job and if that person's yourself. And so I think like with that like you're doing the work of Jesus Christ in my opinion you're serving other people you're loving them you're looking to To give them hope and light you're doing Exactly what Jesus Christ would have you do and you know are in church Ceremonies and practices a little bit different.

God. We have a little bit of Different, you know beliefs on small doctrine points that yeah, we do but I think it's the end of the day.