The Laborers' Podcast

Podcast this is the Holy Spirit part 4.

We hope you will stick around and join us Welcome again to the laborers podcast

We are so thankful that you are watching or listening joining us live or later on at the recorded episode

We're so grateful for you and your support. The comment line is open. We'd love to hear from you heavy questions or critiques

We'll try to answer those questions the best we can and get back to you and we'd like to pray for you, too

So just let us know if we can pray for you I'm glad to have with me big John and who does the real real talk with me

John podcast? Tyler who does bread of the word podcast and we're going to have Jesse that you kind of knocks back with us who does

Bible Theory podcast and the happy Calvinist called Ramsey who does the here

I stand theology podcast. How you guys doing tonight? Doing well

Doing Good good good. So we are on Holy Spirit part 4 and you know,

I think this this series could go on for months Hopefully we can wrap it up tonight and I'm looking forward to getting started with these questions

And let's start at the top of the list and we'll start at the top of the screen with big

John Looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say. I don't know exactly where everyone is on some of these answers

This topic can be quite controversial for some people But we want to love one another and grow from one another as we have this conversation

So number one big John. Yes, sir. Explain what it means

Be baptized in the Holy Spirit So In the in the

Church of God we we teach that After salvation there there can be a time at a time of the

Lord's choosing where he baptizes you Christ baptizes you in his

Holy Spirit and there's We always like to go to the book.

I think that Sometimes there's a differences of opinion as to what that looks like in terms of whether someone is in field with the

Holy Spirit and whether someone is baptized with the Holy Spirit in John chapter 20 and We're starting 21 or we'll go back to 19 for some for some context if that's okay in the evening of That first day of the week the disciples were gathered together

With the doors locked because of the fear of the Jews then Jesus came stood among them and he said peace to you

Having said this he showed them his hands and aside so that the disciples rejoiced when they saw the

Lord Then he said to them again peace to you as the father has sent me

I also send you after saying this he breathed on them and said receive the

Holy Spirit If you forgive sins of any they will be forgiven of them and if you retain the sins of any they will be retained and then in In in acts

We'll start at 1 and 4 while While he was together with him.

He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for the father's promise Then he said you've heard this from me for John baptized with water

But you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now So then he had come together and they asked him

Lord at the time are you restoring the kingdom? To Israel and he said it is not for you to know the times or the periods for the father has sent his own authority but you will receive power when the

Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all of Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth now

When you see in John obviously those are two different books so we need to be careful I suppose that we we get the right

The right context surrounding them, but when he speaks to them in that chamber As he breathes on them, they receive his spirit to me.

This is This is reminiscent of what you see in Genesis where he breathed in Adams nostrils and it and man became a living soul but that May have been the infilling of the

Holy Spirit But there appeared to be a later Baptism of the

Holy Spirit for these folks that would have endowed them with the power for the ministry that he had called them to do and and This is where I suppose the some of the biggest

Disagreements we would have and concern concerning this topic and I'd like to I'd like to state it up front that the

Lord does not Baptize folks with the Holy Spirit so that they can have excellent church services and run around and jump and shout

But the Holy Spirit baptism was sent for ministry to be accomplished because it was necessary that God That God secured this ministry by his own power and with his own sovereign will does that make sense?

Yep, so Did does that answer the bulk of the question brother

Rob in terms of what what I understand? obviously, we could go into it deeper if you'd like me to but But the differences of opinions

I think some folks look at the Holy Spirit baptism as the infilling of the

Holy Spirit whereas I would look at it more as a a an Infilling of the Holy Spirit would be a different set of circumstances opposed to the baptism of the

Holy Spirit Well, yeah, I appreciate that and and I think we're going to get

Because we're from different backgrounds and like I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure where where each one of us land on these issues yet So it's good from your background of where you're coming from.

You're giving us an understanding of How you viewed this this subject?

Yes, sir, and where you stand on the issue So yeah, I think it's really important to do that that you that you give us that information.

We see where you're coming from When you when you talk about the infilling of the Holy Spirit and and you're describing it you're you're looking at it

Looking at it from scripture It kind of made me think of the conversation that we were having before in the other podcast podcast about the

Holy Spirit Where we look at the Old Testament figure where they were indwelled or or infilled with the

Holy Spirit and We're well most of the time most of the time you would read in the

Old Testament you see where the Holy Spirit would Descend on someone for a moment in time to accomplish whatever it is.

God desired to accomplish in that moment I've always kind of jokingly said and and I Sort of being serious when

I said to is that I believe there were moments in history that were so important to be right that God said now I'm not leaving you to do this on your own because if they give you an opportunity to do this on your

Own you're gonna mess this up so I'm gonna do it so that it's done correctly and because of man's hard -heartedness and because of man's

Stiff -necked behavior that has he has shown through the Exodus and the wanderings in the wilderness

God did not dwell in his people at that time, but he lived among his people in periods of time that he chose

It's also I think important to recognize that that all of this the infilling the moving on of the

Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit these are These are moments that God dictates when this happens.

This is there's no prayer to pray to cause God to save you any more than there would be a prayer that you could pray or would force

God to And fill you with Holy Spirit I believe it the moment that you're saved his Holy Spirit lives in you dwells in you you're in field with this

Holy Spirit And I believe that at the moment when he calls you he baptizes you with Holy Spirit and and I always want to preface this because sometimes

I think this is the biggest misconception you have I'm a Pentecostal and by nature were charismatic

But we're not foolishly charismatic with absolutely no no between a

Pentecostal and a charismatic I've heard it called here Charismatic where just anything goes as long as it feels good in the moment

Which is I mean has absolutely no different than what the world would do And I'm not a I'm a continuationist and that I believe that God still moves the exact same way that he always has is more

As what he wills and in his time But You know, it's it's important to remember that that a promise that was in all four gospel counts was that while John would baptize with water and Jesus's disciples was later baptized with water that Jesus himself would be the one who baptizes you in the

Holy Spirit and will fire I guess the question that I was trying to ask was do you see that the in feeling or or the

Empowering that we were talking about that haven't happened in the Old Testament With those guys, is that what you're talking about happening in the

New Testament from your perspective? so I suppose so I suppose so because You So you read about them being baptized with the

Holy Spirit Singularly an event in the upper room right in Acts chapter 2 However later on you will hear where Peter was again refilled with the

Holy Spirit after having accomplished some issue I think it was with the It was with the

Italian cohort Cornelius Right. I believe I have to go look if I might be wrong.

I don't want to misspeak I know everybody's got their finger on axe, but I believe if you if you read whenever they received the baptism at that moment that it that said they were all filled with the

Spirit and I assume when you see all it means all including Peter as well Which I suppose is a

I look that is a different event than a baptism of the Holy Spirit Okay There's a did

I clear it up or did that just continue to muddy the waters? Yeah, yeah, you know, I think that was great and I'd like to hear other perspectives.

I know I know Jonathan you're gonna be coming from a baptistic Continuationist perspective and so that's gonna be interesting point of view

Tyler Jesse more the Presbyterian, but I don't know if you get which I don't know which you guys are cessationist or continuationist and Claude you're gonna be a the baptistic side as well more the baptistic side.

So I Keep on saying Babs Acosta. Is that Pastor John Babs Acosta?

Yes, I am You or Presbyterian point of view the baptism of the

Holy Spirit Which is specifically mentioned in the passage that he read in Acts you will be baptized by the

Holy Spirit What does that mean from a Baptist perspective for a Presbyterian perspective?

Either one of you want to give us yeah, go ahead. We repeat the question so baptism of the

Holy Spirit You know, how would you answer that from your from your theological background your church membership background as a

Presbyterian How would you answer that question to somebody who's asking? What what is the baptism of the

Holy Spirit for New Testament believers? Well, um, well you have to break that down it's a lot there so let me see the text

I will go to would be Ephesians 1 Chapter chapter 1

I think verse 13 I think when he says when you when you heard the word of the truth

The gospel of your salvation and believed in him you were sealed With the promise of the

Holy Spirit. So Obviously is talking about seal being sealed with the Holy Spirit This is assuming that you already have it

That you already have this in dwelling in you and Like if you really, you know, there's a lot to it here like you could go back to Abraham You could go back to all you know, stuff like that.

But um, I think it's not about like if you look at the seal You know,

I would instead of asking the what I think you should ask the who in that part Because it says you you know in verse 13 right there says you were sealed with the promise of the

Holy Spirit So, you know the Holy Spirit comes to dwell and make residence and in the believers in the believers life and a believer's body

Right and a believer's, you know life. So I think all Christians would uh would agree with that one and There's I guess there's some nuances here and there when you apply some of the you know, the you know, the

Holy the promises of the Holy Spirit Like, you know a lot of people like to talk about the inheritance of all that And but I don't think it's

Like when Christians get in trouble Christians can get get get themselves in trouble pretty quickly when they say

Holy Spirit You need proof of it. You need some demonstrations of it to display genuine faith in your life.

And if you don't have it you know, then it's kind of like a Like they become

Holy Spirit police, you know what I mean? They become the Holy Spirit police You know what?

I mean? They shake you down and they're like, well, you don't have it in you And you can't turn this apple into bread or whatever, you know, you ain't a

Christian. So I think stuff like that A lot of people, you know stereotypical Stereotype us, you know in Hollywood and stuff like that And I think those are very dangerous areas.

So I think you need to ask about the who instead of the what? Obviously, it's a promise

Joe to Joe talks about God pouring out his spirit

So that it's already done God fulfilled that promise, you know an axe you know, so it comes down to you know, different caps of you know and being empowered by the

Holy Spirit and You know asking for you know for some Christians that get burnt out, you know asking for a fresh

Quote -unquote, you know pouring of the Holy Spirit Which is basically just like a revival and in their walk with their with their with the

Lord You know because once you have the Holy Spirit you have the Holy Spirit, you know what I mean? once they've always saved obviously from a reformed perspective, you're not gonna like Abandon the

Lord and be like well If you really say if you really say if you really got the Holy Spirit, you only get justified once You know, so all of that Holy Spirit doctrine has to fall in place with with other with other doctrines, right so you know, so you can't be kind of safe and then and then later not saved and and then somewhat justified and then later later on Justified so you're justified once you got the

Holy Spirit once There's times in life and sanctification where people were Christians fall away from the

Lord, you know with feelings and Their will you know what

I mean? We you know, you know, we become dull We're not as sharp anymore.

So we need a fresh we need a Like a revival in the believers heart and I think of the

Puritans like they they talk about this like a ton in their work where Christians fall away from from the

Lord and they need a revival of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and If I could do a lot there so I don't know yeah if I could build off of that a little bit

With I'm gonna say with that phrase the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think there's Significance in the fact that that phrase doesn't appear often

Because it is a handful of texts that we see that phrase and I think it's by design and And so if we go back to Mark chapter 1 which is one of the examples that John threw out for John the

Baptist saying that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit so in Mark chapter 1

It says John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance For the remission of sins and then all the land of Judea and those from Jerusalem Went out to him and were baptized by him in the

Jordan River confessing their sins And he goes on to say I indeed baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the

Holy Spirit speaking of the Messiah and the challenge with the baptism of John the

Baptist is that We're not in we're not post -cross The work of redemption has not been accomplished yet.

So what does the the baptism mean? It has a different significance and From what

I can tell it seems to at least somewhat to hearken back to some of the Levitical understandings of purification and you have this practice in the

Old Testament of sometimes Quote baptizing on like the sacrificial birds in the temple and you couldn't necessarily

Immerse them, but you could sprinkle it. You could pour it there were other methods that were attached to that understanding of Baptiste so in the

Greek well And so there's this this understanding of priestly

Purification here of being cleansed of sin of being made new Ezekiel chapter 36

Promises that the gift of the Holy Spirit This is I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean

I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and from all your idols I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit inside you

I will take the stony flesh the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh

I will put my spirit inside you and cause you to live by my laws Respect my rulings and obey them

So when we talk about the Holy Spirit, I think it's somewhat Poetic it's a bit of an illustration of what

God is doing of Him purifying us of us of him making us clean something that he works in us.

That may not be Necessarily visible in like an extravagant way like we see in Acts 2

But that God fills us with something new so I'll jump in here for a second.

I think one one important thing to recognize is When you're at when someone asks you have you been baptized in the

Holy Spirit or baptized in the Holy Ghost? I think you got to understand the context from what they're asking you from If a

Pentecostal asked me have I been baptized in the Holy Spirit and I'm not saying John's Group I'm talking more more even extreme.

They're not asking me if I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit. They've asked me do I speak in tongues? That's that's the that's the underlying question.

So so it's not It's not a question of the Holy Spirit. It's really a question of yes.

Hey Greg Harry, buddy so that's important to understand who's asking versus a

Baptist will never ask you if you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit Because they don't know half the time don't even acknowledge the

Holy Spirit. And so so we've got horrific extremes in all of these camps and and that really do very a great disjustice to The one who

Jesus said is better that I go so that you can have this That that the one that I'm going to send you the

Spirit is better than me myself He is going to be the one that walks with you and lives with you and it dwells you and empowers you and comforts you and Convicts you and teaches you and washes you and regenerates you and all the promises of God that we have even

Romans chapter 8 I really believe if you start with Romans chapter 8 all those promises in Romans chapter 8 they are fulfilled by the power and the gift of the

Holy Spirit as we consider Romans 8 one of the Everest of the Bible for Christians And so so it's just no depth nor height can separate us from the love of God not even if said

How does God keep that promise? It's it's that he will never leave us nor forsake us. It's by the Holy Spirit So first of all,

I just think we need to have a real biblical Understanding of the Holy Spirit the second statement that I want to make before I just address baptism is

The problem is every camp every denomination just makes stuff up that suits there's their their ideology around the

Holy Spirit and And I usually just tell people quit making stuff up like I've had

Pentecostals tell me Well, you need to learn to speak in tongues because the devil don't understand that that language of that heavenly language and well if 1st

Corinthians 13 is Really speaking about a heavenly language though I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not loved if we take that as a literal text

That is a possibility for mankind. Well, then then I'm pretty sure Satan was an angel and he'll understand what

I'm saying You want to meet if that's exactly the language that I'm using? So let's just don't make stuff up as we go along the

Word of God is sufficient To deal with every aspect of this and so so now back to the question of baptism the

Holy Spirit You know, if if you ask me every man in this room right now Have they been baptized in the

Holy Spirit? Number one, I would say yes, and why because the

Apostle Paul wrote this in 1st Corinthians chapter 12 That we are all as members of one body

Baptized into the body of Christ by what one spirit of Holy Spirit.

Okay, so Defended or or taken back by the question About the baptism of the

Holy Spirit. That is what gives us unity We're baptized number one into the body of Christ according to Scripture 1st

Corinthians We're baptized into the body being many members, but one body by the baptism of the

Holy Spirit So that's that would be what I would consider the most fundamental definition of baptism of the

Holy Spirit Um when it comes to Jesus baptizing with the Spirit and by fire

I just want to mention about the fire side of it in the Gospels That fire is not a a happy fire not judgment.

That is judgment Yeah, so so there's a misunderstanding even if I know there is a refiner's fire mentioned in Scripture but Most of the time when

God and fire mix together It is a fearful thing to fall in the hands of an angry God for he is an all -consuming fire, so it's typically speaking of judgment except in the context of Sanctification of that refiner's fire that is making us more precious than gold, you know purifying us as in silver

And so we have an aspect of it So the baptism of the Holy Spirit number one is a baptized in the body

Now the second thing that I'll say though is I have no problem That someone in their journey of sanctification

Some of us may have went from a B -c -d -e -f -g

And it's a plodding along to where I explain it this way It's not about how much more the

Holy Spirit received But it's about how much more of our flesh dies and the greater our flesh dies

The more the Spirit has control and the more more of the Spirit will come out of us And so your father being a good father

How much more the Holy Spirit will he give you if you ask him and so that's

That's what the Bible tells us. And so that means flesh dies spirit has more control So therefore the fruit of the

Spirit and the manifestation of the power of the Spirit the more that we're going to have in there so for some people that can be

Applauding in life, but I've also seen people that God doesn't work in their life It's such a miracle that they go from a to G in Seconds there's this anointing of his power.

They they get free from alcohol. They get freed from addiction. They get freed I mean

God just does a quick work and I don't have a problem if they're saying this is a pouring out a washing or even a flooding or a

Baptism of the Holy Spirit on their life that they were just saturated in such a way by the power of God That he did something significant in a short amount of time in their life.

I just think men's terminology We like terminology and we like biblical terminology to handle that and so therefore to try to explain what's happening in people's lives

We just make up doctrines that try to explain What's going on and and then that's created a grand cabinet have

Canyon among denominations and all this kind of thing and so So is it a second work of grace?

No, I don't think so I think it's the continuation of the first work of grace is my opinion. Okay, because I don't think there's more grace to be received

But there's definitely I need more of God Okay now the only caveat that I say is we do have a

Description and I take the book of Acts as a descriptor rather than a prescription Okay We do have this thing in Acts chapter 19 where Paul asked a group of disciples that are there to Ephesus Next chapter 19 verse 2.

He says have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? And so there's a whole definition going back to what

Tyler was just talking about the baptism of John and they'd like we've never even Heard of a Holy Spirit. We've never even heard of a

Holy Ghost. Yeah, and he goes what baptism you have? Well, we've got the baptism of John. Well, these guys are disciples of Jesus, but yet Only have a baptism of John and then the

Bible says that he baptized them in water laid hands I'm afraid on and then I'm not afraid to say this most

Baptist are afraid to but then they begin to speak in tongues and Prophesy, okay. I don't have a problem saying there is always an evidence that when the

Holy Spirit is in your life I don't have a problem saying there's always a Evidence. I just don't think it has to be the evidence of speaking in tongues

But if the God of the universe and dwells your life, we're foolish to say that there won't be change we're foolish to say there won't be evidence if the

Holy Ghost really saturate you so So I do think there's people out there

Just like in Acts 19 but I think they believed in Jesus But they've been raised up in a context that they they didn't even know nothing about the

Holy Spirit they've been raised up in a church that has never taught them anything aborted all scripture of the

Holy Spirit because they're afraid of being categorized In some form or fashion.

So we have people out there that are completely ignorant of what the Most precious gift second to only

Jesus is what I would say The Holy Ghost the Holy Spirit the gift of Jesus to his people in salvation is his spirit is

Him and that's how he is. Well, and so we need to be teaching that and explaining that It doesn't have to be quirky and it doesn't have to put us into labels.

So that's why I tell people I'm a reformed charismatic or I'm a bad the costal or whatever

And all I'm trying to say is I just want to stand on the whole council of the

Word of God I mean, I mean the Bible is enough and there's really no denomination that actually in my opinion that Holistically addresses the issue in the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit because it's always in this box We're over here or it's always in this extreme box over here.

But the Bible really is Very open because we have a sovereign God and he does as he pleases

And as he does as he pleases that mean he pours out his spirit on mankind his command for us is to pretend and Surrender and as we surrender

Then in his spirit, he'll do all kinds of stuff that don't make any sense to mankind his ways are not our ways

His thoughts are our thoughts and it won't make sense to us. We won't have words to say it

So anyways, that's my two cents on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I think those original questions that I'm saying

Really play a key role of who is asking the question because there's an underlying need to the question at that Rather than Robert what you're asking is just point -blank.

The scripture says we're baptized by the Holy Spirit. What's that mean? What's that make sense? Yeah, but when you ask from a denominational context

There's so many layers under that that that's why it's so hard to unpack this question just only straightforward value so yeah

Claude do you want to add anything or are you ready for me to do a follow -up type? Well, you you go ahead.

I'm enjoying listening right now. Okay, so Sorry about that. So this is

I think this question that Jason is given is is gonna be similar to where I'm going He says what exactly is different in the lives of those that believe in a separate

Holy Spirit baptism versus who don't so my follow Up question just listen to what you guys are saying

Jesse he brought up the ceiling of the Holy Spirit Which was going to be the next question on the list and and kind of associating that with baptism the

Holy Spirit And and he used the words indwelling make taking residence and and a lot of you guys were making the the correlation between Salvation and the baptism of Holy Spirit that he the baptism happens at salvation.

He comes in there's a ceiling There's a residence there's a he's now living living with you and so You know, this is gonna this is coming from You know questions coming from my background who who you know,

I've always wanted to talk to more Continuationist more charismatics to get clarity.

So I'm kind of asking and it's it's kind of similar to Jason's question so Big John he he used the terms like refilling where he talked about Peter being refilled and and empowering to to do a certain task and in a

Similarity between what we saw in Old Testament believers and and maybe in New Testament believers where Where the

Holy Spirit will refill or empower to do a certain task and there's certain times where we

We may say different things But we can we can mean the same thing.

So are we doing that? Are we saying different things but meaning the same thing or we meaning two different things.

Do we have a different? I I'm not sure on the last part of your question, but to answer your question and Jason's question.

I would echo JC Ryle if you've never read

Old paths by JC Ryle. I encourage you to get this book and read it but In one of the sermons in this book, he states this concerning the evidences by which the

Holy Ghost In a man may be known so I would say Jason I would say

Rob there is no difference What exactly is the difference in the lives of those that believe in a separate

Holy Spirit baptism versus the one who don't I would say Practically there is absolutely no difference because the whole

According to his good pleasure like Jonathan said to The Holy Spirit feels like big

John said right us we're sealed with the Holy Spirit as Jesse said and Tyler spoke about there, too

So I would say Practically, there's no difference in the lives of those that believe in a separate

Holy Spirit baptism versus the ones who don't Because no matter how we understand it

Individually the work of the Holy Spirit is the same Ryle said this how are we to know whether we are partakers of the

Holy Ghost? By what marks may we find out whether we have the Spirit of Christ?

And he says this the presence of the Holy Ghost in a man's heart can only be known by the

Effects or by the fruits and the effects that he produces. That's the Holy Spirit the work of the

Holy Spirit He says what are the specific fruits by which the presence of the Spirit in the heart may be known?

In Ryle in the 1900 said this I find no difficulty in answering that question

The Holy Ghost always works after a certain definite pattern just as the bee always forms the cells of its comb

In one regular hexagonal shape. So does the Spirit of God work on the heart of man with a uniform result?

so in what happens whether someone professes to be to have the second blessing of the

Holy Spirit or to be saved but to be born again because It is the the work of the

Holy Spirit himself to regenerate the heart of man and make us new creatures so the effects and the work the outworking of that same

Holy Spirit is Uniform in all who are truly born again now

It may happen at different rates like like Jonathan said but it's it's uniform The Holy Ghost brings conviction of sin the

Holy Ghost Will always be like will always produce a lively faith in Christ and And I'll and I'll be so bold as to say this.

This is where as a reformed Baptist I have such a problem with so many of the reformed

Christian folks who think that being a Christian means that you're cold dead and you're dried up That you don't have any joy that you don't have any hope that you don't that you don't cry that you don't

Whether you're crying for joy or crying for sadness That you don't shout that you don't rejoice that you don't get it happy and get excited in the

Lord as we talked about in the country that's a problem that I have with many in reformed circles because they so program the

Spirit of God out of The life of the individual

Christian and in from the life of the church that it just becomes

Legalism 2 .0 So but Raul goes on to say this and I'll and I'll hush

So he said where the Holy Ghost is there will all be always be a holiness of life again.

No No difference You've been born again. The Holy Spirit lives in you and Continually sanctifies you and makes you holy according to the likeness in the image of Christ Raul goes on where the

Holy Ghost is there will always be the habit of earnest private prayer now And he said finally the

Holy Ghost Where the Holy Ghost is there will always be a love and a reverence for God's Word And this is that's it.

That's what brought me full circle to what Jonathan was saying there that Ultimately and and big

John said it at the hit right before he said anything He said, of course, we got to go to the book

We got to go to the word and that's what the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God does in us through In the hearts and the minds of his people is that he causes us

Moment a moment to be renewed in our inner man

Yes, I would say Absolutely. There are there are times in our lives where we are

Um Some may hate me for this. I'll say it where we are Building you right?

We are renewed. We're energized It's like it's like the Energizer bunny, right?

You you can tell when the batteries are going dead in your remote because you got to press the button three or four times to get it

Well, I know what the problem is after this has happened for a month I need to put a new battery in and then you can put that remote underneath the covers and press

It'll change the channel, right? That's brought to us but if we if we so Depersonalized the

Holy Spirit so that we separate ourselves and and I've got you know I've got a thing going on right now with a local church up there.

They're the radical nar style Charismatics, right but listen, we can't go to those extremes.

We have to stay balanced Uh -oh, I think Siri just thought I talked to her. I Wasn't talking to you

Now it looks like he's got a follow -up question for you Clyde Though I must say from what

I see almost all the great heroes of the faith. We're not continuationist So you agree that's gonna go.

I'm sorry. Well, I was just gonna say, you know If any historians called

Tyler anybody else Jesse you you have some knowledge on this

Tertullian maybe a couple people just martyr perhaps there's a couple of people in there that uh, you know would say they were

Continuationist in the sense of the Greek word that cares meant that cares mania.

I'm not the crazy carrying you know, there's Mata cares Mata the you know that that Greek word of the

Expression of the Holy Spirit when it manifests right when it comes out when the moon when the miraculous

Happens like when God spoke the world into existence That's like charismatic gift.

I in action and it's perfect and it's most perfect form Does that still apply?

Yeah, I think there was there's quite a few examples of throughout church history where you can find many great theologians

Believing that the gifts are still here. I think the most recent one is probably

Martin Lloyd Jones who was a reformed guy, you know what I mean? He was a was a reformed guy, but he was a reformed

Continuationist I think he was probably a reformed continuationist with the seatbelt though, you know what

I mean? I don't think he was like radical Like name it and claim it and like, yeah, you know send me $30 and I'll bless

He believed that the spirit could move when it wants to whenever it wants to in special special ways so and then but the majority of theologians and church historians has been

A Cessationist, you know what I mean? Like those were not on the continuation of caps.

So I See where you're coming from on that a lot of times. I think that may be one of the reasons why so many so many people in books are

Cessationist is because If we're being honest a lot of the time how often

Would a cessationist pick up a book from a continuationist and and read it with any kind of care, you know

This is a this is a this is a different kind of group okay, and and I may at one time or another at one point in any one of the podcasts may vehemently disagree with any one of Y 'all about anything you're saying except the gospel and because of that I'll die for you

You understand and and I have no problem calling you brothers On The on the flip side of that is there's not going to be a lot of modern

Pentecostal Pastors or teachers who spent a great deal of time studying?

Cessationist beliefs or views because they feel no no value in them. Now. There are more cessationist than there are continuationist even if you count all the nonsense on TBN and Anything that you find on I don't know what what name that boys church and tail smiling

Joe's church Whatever is called down there in Texas. My point is is if Yeah, did

I call him Joe I think I did call him Joe didn't I I'm thinking anyway, whatever I think Being that continuationists are drastically outnumbered

Statistically, you're more likely to see a book written by cessationist than you are a continuationist And if we're being truthful, most of your biggest colleges are going to be more reformed colleges that are going to propagate more cessationist theology

Nothing. I don't have a problem with any of that. But but those things being what the way I see it it is hard It is hard to find many textbooks written in the last 75 years

There are really really good textbooks about continuationist theology and the best one

I've gotten I got into Baptist College. It was written in like the 20s and There was

I mean it it appeared to be a preconceived idea that God still moves the same way that he always does when you're reading

New Testament survey and I That's one of the best I kept it. I didn't sell it back. I thought was a great book. So I someone shelf, you know some of these things

I Would say that if you're if you're going by the sheer number then you may have more heroes that are

Cessationist and our continuations but if you look around you got guys like Paul Washer who Believes that the

Lord still moves the same way always does he doesn't I've even heard in one of his sermons and I can't find It saved my life

He was preaching somewhere about the the renewing and the baptism of the

Holy Spirit He said I refuse to deny continuing feelings and baptisms of the Holy Spirit though You call me charismatic is a direct quote from that sermon and they got quiet and whatever church he was preaching at, you know

And I think that guys like those Are few and far between Brother Paul probably has a seat belt on even though he he's gonna line up more reform than he does charismatic

He is certainly guys. Go ahead brother. No, you're a washer. It's just a platform right here I think what you'll find is and this is no accusation by anybody, but I've yet to find a cessationist

That is a front -line missionary in third world countries And maybe truth will and and I would disagree with that bro.

I would disagree with that And so and and that's all

I'm trying to say is like and and that's where that's where my study of the

Holy Spirit began to To really take formation of just looking at scripture

I quit reading everybody else and what everybody else did and just just said, you know And I'm gonna spend about three or four years in this

I'm just going to read what the Bible says and then I'll go back and read some other guys and I'll go and read other people but just like Jonathan Edwards is who

I did my senior thesis on through my and Jonathan Edwards was like This way and he basically becomes a station.

This is cessationist at the point in time that we're at the feet of Jesus So he says of course where he's not a continualist because of his philosophy

He's saying he's not a continualist because it won't continue all the way in through heaven And so I just think there's so many like different layers that you have to unpack between these terminologies

And those kind of things but you know at the end of the day defining that and helping it understand that Of what are common gifts that we all have?

What are what are Extraordinary things that God may or may not do but has permission to do and why is he a permission to do it because he's

God that that's the only thing that that's the only issue that I have if we're going to say that we have a doctrine a

Doctrine in my opinion should be Universal not just from my context or your context that that if I say this is doctrine then

Then it's explainable and transferable throughout the entire world and the reality is this there's still very supernatural

Wondrous works that God is doing in the world that that wouldn't fit in my Sunday morning sermon it wouldn't fit in our

Sunday morning services because Hopefully All the people if not all a majority of the people sitting in that service on a

Sunday morning are born -again believers They're being fed the Word of God. They don't need any more affirmation or demonstration of the gospel.

They are believers and so that the Affirmation the Spirit has bore witness with their spirit.

They have believed and now it's an empowering for them to go and do ministry And I think the

Holy Spirit equips people for whatever they need to do ministry But I will say this there's gifts that came into my life that I did not have

Until the time that I surrendered in November of 1998 This is always a special time of year for me in November 1998 is when

I surrendered to the gospel ministry I had no idea what God was going to do in my life I had no idea what it was gonna look like my wife that just brought me this cup of coffee

We were dating at time I caught her that night and I said, babe I said the Lord's called me to ministry and I need to know if you can marry a preacher or not because I Know that night of surrender

That the Holy Spirit gave me things that night that I didn't have before them Exactly.

And so so whatever you want to call that whatever terminology you want to give that I'm not offended

If someone says when you got a fresh baptism, Holy Spirit, you better believe I did I got some praise I didn't have before But at the same time

Did I get more saved no, I didn't I was already secure But a new sanctification happened a new anointing came on my life

New gifts and abilities came into my life better understanding of the Word of God that I never had before came into my life

It was the work of the Holy Spirit and and I just don't understand why for any of us none of us here saying this

But why we allow that it to become a negative thing when we start talking about the

Holy Spirit It should be the most glorious wondrous full thing if God by his sovereign design and plan chooses to bless anybody with his spirit and and whether it's a little more or a

Death of flesh or however, you want to phrase it out If the work of God is authentically working in somebody's life, then it's something to be celebrated

And so so and I've seen it all across the world. You're very blessed to go some extremely remote places

Where the gospel was not not a prevailing culture and I have seen absolutely miraculous things happen.

I have laid hands on people that were blind and they received sight and Those kind of things that I just can't deny that and then what broke out from that Was very act feeling it was like thousands were saved in those moments and There's no credit to anybody

Glory to God and the work of the Holy Ghost that happened with feeble hands of men just trying to go into remote places the world and and watching

God do that, so So that's that's where at the end of the day not only biblically but also experientially

I see that but I have to be very careful because the experience on the other side Someone would say

I've never experienced that so there's no way this So that's one of the things I was going to touch on All the way touch on that to answer that question.

Go ahead. I disagree with I disagree with brother Claude and yes in love With this question that was read earlier about what exactly the difference in those lives to live

Separate Holy Spirit baptism versus those who don't while there may be no difference in their salvific state

There is no difference in their salvific state I believe over and over again, especially in the book of Acts you see it and one in eight

You receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you this was for the work of ministry

That's what this was for every place Throughout all of time work where God is glorified and where God is is working things by his own power there by his own power, and I think that there will be folks who are just as saved as as Any any any baptized believer there is any

Holy Spirit baptized believer But but never received the baptism before for whatever reason and I don't know but I do know that that prior to my experience

I Felt just as saved I had just as much security

And so I say it like this for those who are listening because I know how y 'all believe right But I want to be clarity because I have heard people in Pentecostal realm said that if you don't speak with tongues

You're not saved. That's just utterly false Utterly false. Absolutely 100 % vehemently false, right?

Like like pastor John was talking the first time I ever had any kind of Supernatural encounter with the

Lord after salvation was whenever I Really feel like he taught me how to read the

Word of God. Most people wouldn't believe it If I told you I'm a I'm a very very poor reader.

I Spent most of my time in an elementary school Just just hanging on by my

You know a feather I Take remedial reading classes my reading comprehension, even though I would score high in some areas which would carry me through Was always very very poor and the

Bible was no Exception and one one day while trying to share the gospel with a man who was exceedingly smarter than I am

I fell on my face Having absolutely nothing for a Recourse he whipped me.

He mentally whipped me got in a battle of wits and I was definitely ill -equipped for that and When I got home

I was I was actually reading over some of the scriptures that he was using from his atheistic point of view to try to try to figure out what he was talking about and and just in a moment where I go to God as absolutely as Spiritually naked as you can

I said look I've got absolutely no problem dying for you I know that you've saved me. I have

I have your word tells me Tells me that I've been born again and that and that I will be

I'll be with you forever and you'll make me like you But if there's something that you want me to do, I cannot

I can't read this book and understand it. I Just can't I got no problem to whatever you want me to do

But you're gonna have to do it in me because I can't and in that moment It is if the

Bible was thumbed through my mind I am with scary accuracy I can almost quote large portions of Scripture having read them many months prior and And I dare not always say that this way because I have been

I've been told by people in my church I wish I could understand Scripture and remember it the way you can and I say I can't

I can't and I want to make sure that God gets glory for that and and I don't want to I Don't want to rob

God of anything that he's ever done in my life and he's done up He's been good to me. God has been good to this old man, and I'm in and I refuse to to to not give glory and honor and where it's due and it's all due to the

Lord and and the Relationship that he has chosen through his Holy Spirit to have With with me in his church

I'll never I'll never Take anything away from him on that even though I may be considered a charismaniac charismaniac my son.

I'm fine with that Yeah, I'll echo Okay, David. I have not even begun to defile myself at this point

See right there that that's that's the point where it crosses into the supernatural a lot and that right there

Surpasses our knowledge or we can only go so far Right to understand the

Holy Spirit as he reveals himself primarily in Scripture, right? and when we

Experience him You know, I mean and certain episodes and certain things Then when you when you go back in and you've been like well the

Holy Spirit equips the church to carry out the Great Commission That's right. Mm -hmm, but sometimes

He goes beyond that, you know, I mean and he's like what he gives us like you said a supernatural

Consciousness of his presence awareness a keen keen awareness. You know, I mean like oh man, how did

I do? Memorize all that verses all of a sudden, you know I mean like when the when when they were persecuting

John and Peter and the Disciples, they're like wait a minute. You guys are just fishermen like you guys

Unlearned and ignorant man Yeah, you guys are just backwater Hibbelies man, come on, you know what

I mean from from Israel Galilee you guys power will fish like Come on But how how is it that you quote

Old Testament Shema? how is it that you understand the technique the technicalities of You know

Isaiah and quoting the Messiah like we you know There's this super naturalness about the

Holy Spirit that Even the geniuses of the church have acknowledged that this you know

We could only go so far with our human intellect and our human knowledge with reading the scriptures, right?

Trusting the scriptures that are divine But even with that it's like our human faculties can only take us so far like it

You know what I mean? So what you describe right there just proves that point of sometimes

The Holy Spirit goes beyond just equipping the church like he does give us sometimes this unexplainable

Keen of consciousness. I call it this keen of awareness of like he's there

He's giving us things giving us answers how to reply like if you went to the streets and start street preaching

You know, that's when he does that. You know what I mean? And no, no doctrine is gonna you know, no no seminary degree is gonna provide that for us

He's an ever -present help in a time of trial He's a friend sticking closer than a brother

Brother Brother knocks that what you described is really Really what

I mean when I say continualist Yeah, when when I'm a continualist with I say

I'm a continuous a lot of times with the seatbelt. Okay. Yeah. Yeah I agree that God still has permission

By his own authority to do supernatural things as he will God so if God still does that as he wills who am

I to say that I'm a Sensationalist which in the box of cessationism says no he these things no longer exist

Right, and it's basically and it's basic definition. So so I cannot accept

That God will never ever or can't or won't Do these things?

So then just by deduction I have to say well then I'm open that that it's possible that as God sees fit that it will continue and then

So so I know there's all kinds of Tremendous intellectual Arguments with gifts of prophecy and does that mean we have?

Continuation of the Word of God and all these kind of things that nobody really cares about that What what we're really talking about though is the life and the work of the

Holy Spirit in the life Right authentic believers who are devoted followers of Jesus and when when that happens

There will be supernatural things right and it should so so I think what what we're doing is defining the terms here

Robert So it's so free. I Would agree with all that John I would agree to all that.

I think most popular Sensationalist not sensationalist but sensationalist would say yes

God We we believe that God will move and does move whenever he will

You know in terms of the gifts do we accept all the gifts that's continuing for today as Reformed traditional person will say they will say no not exactly

Because like the offices of apostles don't don't continue today the offices of the

Old Testament Prophecy, you know new revelation from Scripture that adds to the canyon doesn't exist today

You know, those are the gifts that we are cautions about that we're we're playing caution

We're saying wait, wait, I'm a shortstop. I'm like wait, this doesn't get past me you know,

I mean and you know, and it's like Those type of things have some dramatic rat ramification.

Sure on on the church institution and whether miracles exist

Absolutely, God does Miraculous thing the greatest miracle is the power of of the

Holy Spirit's regeneration work in the same man Right, right, right. That that is the most powerful hands -down gift hands down like what

I prefer Changing water into wine or saving a sinner giving him the gospel hands down Saving this sinner man.

Come on home, right? Down by the water down by the water where the water mountains grow

So, yeah, that's where we come from, you know what I mean and what we're saying is that yeah the apostles don't exist

Those gifts are supernatural gifts that once existed now The primary thing is that the word is being preached the gospel is being preached and You know what

I mean declared, right? That's the primary ordinary Office and normal function of the

Holy Spirit as we see today is normal. It's the norm. It's the normative operation of the

Holy Spirit primarily today is that he functions through the word preached and that the faith of All people through Christ comes by hearing that word feet preach

Right, and it comes through If God wills it if God wants it may come with a miracle or two

But primarily and ordinarily not all not really it comes with the word being preached through faith and that's it

Christ alone and in the gospel alone to the glory of God alone, right?

And sometimes yeah, I want it a couple miracles here and there but not really sometimes Well, I think the fact that they're called miracles means that they're that they're not the normal Miraculous exactly.

They're the exception so Normal meaning like, you know

Foolishness, oh, yeah, that's true. I think It's okay

Okay, my bad go ahead we got another question in the feed here from Jason Do I need the

Holy Ghost jolts to live a more powerful and effectual Christian life? I Don't understand that like my car needs a joke by the spark plug

Go for as I was Trans not transitioning us but but kind of steering us in a direct certain direction because which which

I didn't need to because the the Holy Spirit is Doing it you guys were Answering but I mean you guys are already starting to go in the direction that I wanted to lead us to which is the

Holy Spirit's work so In my response to what you guys are saying so far, you know based on most of what big

John pastor John you guys are saying I would I would consider myself a continuationist based on you know

Where you guys were taking us with that, but I can I consider myself a cessationist

So pastor John you were right, I think I think it was right to start leading us in the in the direction of Being a little more definitional in what we mean by cessation and what we mean by continuation so Big John when you said he's an ever -present help.

That's how I wanted to answer this question by Jason So, you know, that's where I'm gonna be a continuationist.

He he is an ever -present help. He's gonna Always be working. He's not gonna the work that he started.

He's gonna finish. He's always gonna be working in me He's gonna continue that work in me. So he's gonna be an ever -present help

So if the help that I need is a jolt and and you guys have already said it over and over again already whatever

Whatever comes out of here that is of him. It's of him. It comes from him

It's him working and you guys have already said that so if if I'm in a place where I need I need a jolt

I need help. I need a refreshing like Paul was saying a while ago It's gonna be of him and from him working through the

Holy Spirit And that's where he's gonna be have that continuing work. And that's where I would be a continuationist

Yeah, no Be deaf and for us to Give give a good clear definition for some people who haven't heard those terms before what is a cessationist?

What is a continuationist? What do we really mean? By the way, shameless plug tomorrow? John big

John and I will be recording a podcast on how cessationists and continuationists have more in common than we think and we are going to be defining that so That episode will probably be dropping on Monday.

We'll drop it on here I stand and on truth and love so it'll be out there for everybody to see

But back to what you were saying and back to the question the joke the

I guess that's a Scare quote joke that's meant there.

I'm assuming but the jolt comes from us as believers being in the word if you want if you want to be

Spiritually energized you'd be in the word you're not gonna get Spiritual and and I don't and I'm not trying to sound new age

Don't nobody think that but if you want to be spiritually energized, you've got to be in the word This the scriptures

Peter wrote in his second letter The Apostle Peter wrote this grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ our

Lord As his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness

Amen through the knowledge of him who called us by glory and virtue by which

By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature that divine nature

Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust But also for this very reason

Give all diligence and add to your faith virtue and the virtue knowledge to knowledge self -control to self -control perseverance to perseverance godliness to godliness brotherly kindness and a brotherly kindness

For if these things be yours and abound you will neither be fairer nor unfruitful

In the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ For he who lacks these things is short -sighted even to blindness and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins therefore brethren be diligent to make your calling in your election sure if we are going to Quote unquote walk in the power of the

Holy Spirit. We've got to be this is completely He'll be the accent in Latin, but we've got to be a classy reformata simper reformanda secundum verbum

Dea we've got to be reformed and always be reformed according to the Word of God and There's that balance and to kind of circle us back here around what everyone is said

Rob And then I promise I will hush but to circle us back What what's been said about?

cessationism versus Continuationism in and and pastor John used the term or used the terminology and he's exactly right

This isn't a doctrine This is a preference a lot of times we and we put ourselves in one group or another so that we as Individuals are more comfortable

But he is the authority God is the one that's doing all things according to the pleasure and the counsel of his goodwill

Amen, and will it make us at times super uncomfortable? Yes Will at times we feel so comfortable that we don't even know what to do.

We're so comfortable in it Yes But we will never we will never as believers in Jesus Christ because of the

Holy Spirit living in us We will never be static. We will never be the same ever changed

Praise God just to be a little definitional a Continuationist versus cessationist so it's my understanding and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong

So a cessationist would say and and I'm gonna lean the way

Jesse was leading us. Um, so certain gifts have have ceased and Certain gifts

Gifts given to certain people that that have them and can use them at will

Have seized like the Apostles, you know, they could go and and heal at will

So when it comes to the example that Pastor John was giving as a cessationist how I would answer that is

I fully Would affirm that God can give someone sight but as far as God The continuing of a let's say a miracle worker that could go

Give sight just that will give sight give sight I think that has ceased but but based on his like somebody was saying it a few minutes ago

Based on his will and his pleasure Because I mean we're taught that the elders should go pray anoint with oil and pray for the sick

And so if it's his will that that they are healed then then they will be healed So if Pastor Jonathan, he's praying on someone and God decides to heal that person then they can be healed.

Yeah, and So let me can interject one thing Yeah, not even

Jesus himself though healed everybody at will yeah At the pool of Bethesda, how many how many people did he walk across and didn't heal anybody?

He got healed one. That's right, you know Then there are other circumstances that everybody that came to me healed them all even the

Apostles could not heal it will so that's So that's not what we're talking about when it comes

I think that's a bad misunderstanding When people will say well if you got the gift of healing won't you just go to the hospital and heal everybody everybody walk out

There that's that's not the biblical gift of healing even Jesus himself said I do nothing that I did not hear and see from my father

So we have to acknowledge there is a route reality that God has always had a will to heal some and has chosen to pass

Over others is still in the doctrine of election. He's chosen to save some and for whatever in his own good and will pleasure

He's made some vessels for honor and some vessels for dishonor. That is that is God's own goodwill and pleasure

I think the problem in our day and time We've forgotten how to discern the voice of God of who's supposed to be and who's not

We've forgotten when we're walking through the pool of Bethesda that we're supposed to stop and pray for this one And step over these other and so then so then when we've forgotten how to discern and hear the voice of God and pay attention

Then therefore we we don't know We really don't know and and but when you even

Peter and John when they went to the temple and they healed a man there That was asking silver and gold heaven over the name of Jesus get up and walk

Every time that the Apostles did something miraculous Described it in this many times to it says he fixed his eyes on him

And when you start unpacking the background of that he fixed his eyes on him It means the Holy Spirit gave them pause.

There was like a pause. There was like a fixing his eyes There was like a focus and in that moment that God was doing something and I think they have a revelation from God in it in faith

They said silver gold have I none but what I have you I give you in the name of Jesus get up and walk So it wasn't just arbitrarily that they walked around with the magic wand and said be healed be healed be healed

What it does mean though is that there were times that by the unction and the power of the Holy Spirit They had an order in their life to turn to do that Now when

I say every single Christian has that no, I don't I think there's some people that God has given

Just like John described a second ago a supernatural ability to go beyond our flesh to memorize

Scripture Or to go to have to have faith to have that but all of this guys pulls down the definitions

Just like for example, if we're talking about the office of Apostle, well, it depends on what how you define that Because basically the

Greek word of Apostle means sent one Jesus our Apostle Hebrew describes him was the one that was sent to us

Then you have the twelve Apostles and then we have what we call today still missionaries that are sent ones

That may go in that manner. So I do believe it just so I do agree. There's no longer the original twelve

There's nobody going to be added to that, you know, except Matthews once you just failed, you know, he was added.

Okay I Understand when a cessation which tells me that the office of Apostle had ceased

But I also like to push them further and I said well missionaries haven't ceased Sent ones that are gifted for that work

That it looks very apostolic if you will that they go into Fallow ground of unreached people groups and they're dropped out of an airplane and then the

Holy Spirit just does this work through their life That give them a year and the church is planted revivals broke out

There's miraculous things happening. And so again, it still all comes back to definition and And when you're looking through that, so I just but I just wanted to kind of clarify that when it comes to healing or those kind of things

The Bible handles that is my whole point. I know I'm very wordy in that And I would lean into Into believing a lot of what you were saying, but on the other hand as well just to throw on something else in the mix

When when those things were happening People knew who to go to people knew whose handkerchief they needed

Yeah Well, I think it goes down to this too I'm gonna say something pastor

John was going I thought he was going I was I was rooting him on big -time And It's gonna be one of the things you you ask in the last question, but I think it fits here

When you see the works that the Apostles were doing this It's it's important that we that we echo what

Paul says and this is not our works This is what the Lord does through people whenever he chooses to again

We got to remember as the as as the spirit wheels these things are accomplished

You also need to remember that during the Apostles age. There were people who were sick That Paul's like drink a little wine for your stomach's sake

You know, he didn't sit he didn't seen a handkerchief to him to him So it's not like Paul had the ability to ever point in his life to command

God to heal somebody right whenever I When I read Galatians 5 and 22, but the fruit of the

Spirit is love joy. Peace patience kindness goodness faith gentleness gentleness Self -control against such there is no law

I think that a lot of times people believe that this is the fruit that believers bear I don't think that's what that says.

These are the fruits of the Spirit and I believe that while the Spirit lives inside of us, we should mirror some of these things

We know that we don't love perfectly and that we don't always contain perfect gentleness and that we're not always long -suffering the way that we should

Be so the same way that the that the fruits of the Spirit are the fruits of the Spirit the

Holy Spirit They're not the fruits of people It's the same exact way that God chose to work through the

Apostles the disciples early church leaders missionaries today and and in that sense

I'm inclined like Pastor John to believe that you know The office of the Apostle the way that the cessation is call it

I'd side with him on that Yeah, I don't believe in the same band We have the same kind of Apostle but we have sent people all over the world who are led by the

Holy Spirit who were empowered by the Holy Spirit for The work of ministry it is always goes back to that The Lord does not give us his spirit for us to shout down a church service and run and and go buckwild at the altars for the sake

For the sake of the moment the empowering of the Holy Spirit has always been through scripture

To see the lost come to know the Lord and always Well, we

We've gone on past our normal time and if if you guys can stick around maybe maybe 15 more minutes

I'll just lead us into into one more aspect of the continuations versus cessationist Conversation and then we'll wrap it up with that and we'll let big

John and Claude answer that last question Can we have fellowship with those that have different beliefs about the

Holy Spirit? We'll let them answer that question in their podcast and there's the big team to promote

So So the other aspect of this conversation that normally usually comes up is is the tongue conversation

I'm going to give you something that I've been looking into that I've been learning and then you guys can take off with it and tell us your points of view

So as a cessationist perspective one of the one of the things that or one of the ways or places that I see or get that reasons

I hold that position is You have first Corinthians 14 yeah, first Corinthians 14 22 that area where Paul is quoting from Isaiah 28

And if you look at Isaiah 28, and if you also look at Genesis 11 Deuteronomy 28

Jeremiah 5 And these are Old Testament passages Where you see tongue and it's it's so interesting and I totally believe exactly how you presented it pastor

John That in the Gospels where John was talking about baptism that fire represents judgment

I think to be consistent with the Old Testament We see in Genesis 11

Deuteronomy 28 Jeremiah 5 and Isaiah 28 that Paul is quoting in in 1st

Corinthians tongues are present as a sign of judgment and and so this and God is giving them the

Jews tongues Because they rejected Christ and so it is it is said that Because of their rejection

He will he will go out to the Gentiles And they were able to speak these other languages to fulfill

Isaiah 28 as Judgment because they rejected Jesus Christ and they will hear these they will be given these foreign languages

They will not understand it says In Isaiah they would not hear and Another another will speak

Another will speak to this people. So That's what

Paul is is quoting in Isaiah 28 and and I see and there's no need for it to continue after AD 70 because the

Gospel had gone out to the Gentiles and Gentile churches have been started and From what

I've been reading that tongues were present Jews were present when tongues were spoken and so it was it was a sign like it says in 1st

Corinthians Not to the believer, but the unbeliever That is a judgment on Israel because of their rejection of Christ and so You guys may have a different perspective.

I'll let you guys take off with Why you think tongues continue or why you think tongues cease?

I'm I'm with you there But I would like to say I'm reminded my father -in -law preached a sermon about three four years ago now.

I remember it We had to travel we traveled over the North Carolina right up by Fontana Where he where he preached but he preached about the

Tower of Babel in contrast to the day I Was just turning there

Yeah, the Tower of Babel the Lord confused the language of the earth there and then on the day of Pentecost He brought clarity in that same exact way

Not by no longer the language being confounded but there but by there being a

Translation of the language and understanding of the language in all tongues of nations of men

So that they could hear the gospel and be saved Yeah, it's a reversal of that judgment there.

Yep Particularly to Babel. Yep. Yeah, but and if you if you look at places like Isaiah 33 where the the absence of foreign language is is a blessing and And you see that promised in them in the

Millennium where you know, we're gonna want to continue to become one and All nations are going to come to Christ there in Isaiah, that's well all throughout the prophets there major and minor

It's it's it's about them It's about Israel being given over into Babylonian captivity and that's the that's where they were they found themselves in the land in the midst of a

Group of people that they you know did not know that they could not understand and were put into slavery again

To them so that's part of that Again, that is truly that was a judgment of God If I could add something on the the

Tower of Babel before we move on In In Regards to the big picture that we've been fleshing out here about the languages and the reversal

If you if you notice in the account of Babel the reason that they were building that tower Was so they could make a name for themselves

Mm -hmm. And then if you skip a couple chapters over what does God promise Abram? I will make your name great

He takes that desire that was carnal and wicked in Babel And he turns it on his head.

It's something good something pure. Yeah, I will make your name great I'll make an you the father of a nation.

I Will give you descendants as numerous of as the stars and from one of those descendants shall come one

Through whom all of the nations of the earth will be blessed. Amen Yeah, and then we get the

Pentecost Which is again like that that reversal of the the division and the the confusion

Brings the gospel in a way that it is open to all peoples Every tribe every tongue every nation is saved by the same gospel

Because there is one through whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed I Think me and big

John totally agree with this, even though I do believe the gift of tongues Still exists in the world today

Second, I don't I would also agree with what he already said that I think it's absolutely wrong to say that is the singular evidence

Of the anointing or baptism or gifting of the Holy Spirit. I think that is that is sinful and wrong

Here's why I believe it exists, I think I don't disagree with what you said

Robert in 1st Corinthians 14 I think it can be a judgment But I think specifically in 1st

Corinthians 14, it's the simplest text that we have it's it's not complicated

Paul writes in very plain terms about the gift of the Holy Spirit when it comes to speaking in tongues versus Prophesying and I do believe what he's talking prophesying here.

He is saying of us say for war and for us I was the process of inspiration was going on at that.

That's correct. It's still going that time I would still say today There are men that have a great gift to this to thus saith the

Lord from expositing the Word of God There we have to acknowledge that there are preachers that have greater gifts of expositing of thus saith the

Lord than others Okay, you just gave an example of something that the Lord has showed you to the same Word of God that I've never even thought about I've never even connected the dots of what you just shared with the

Tower of Babel and the reconciliation that kind of stuff Maybe it's just ignorant to study or I just needed to learn something tonight and I praise

God when the Holy Spirit does this Now you gave me a whole nother Light to look at this. Okay, so so that's still a work of the

Holy Spirit of a thus saith the Lord Here's something another layer of the onion to peel off of my word that you need to see the connections so I don't have a problem with someone says that people have said you really got a prophetic gift and In my life and the reason that they say that though is because I can tell them

The Word of God says do this and if you don't this is going to be the consequences And and there's just this real quick thing that that I'm able to do that quickly not because I'm real smart or anything else but it just and and lo and behold in counseling and those kind of things it comes true, you know,

I mean if they don't do this and this happens if you don't then this happens, you know And and they're like, I can't believe that you told us and it happened just like you said, so That don't mean

I'm foretelling the future. Okay, but it's just the said Lord. But anyways first Corinthians 14

I think it's very plain Very simple the gift of tongues in the first Corinthians 14 Paul says is very clear edifies the individual a lot of people want to make that a negative thing

I don't take it as a negative thing because I personally have things in my life That I do as a pastor that edify me

I need that personal recharging and edification and building up and why so that I am capable of Edifying the

Saints as a whole Okay so whether that comes to the gift of tongues or whether that comes through a reading of a book or whether it comes through the

Exhortation of our podcast with brothers cheering one another on as we do Every single week we're bearing burdens with one another.

We're edifying one another we need that individual edification And so as we have that individual edification then in return

We're able to turn around and pour out and edify Hopefully a whole host of people that are listening to this podcast, you know

We hope that a whole host of people are edified by how we have edified each other Okay as individuals and so so I think

Paul is saying that he's saying hey Edification for self if someone speaks in a tongue, he speaks to God and not unto man.

This is not for the church It's not for the public use in the church This is a man that is speaking to God for his own edification his own personal relationship between him and God But now that man ought to rather seek that he would prophesize so that the church also can share in that edification so he's not saying that one is

Well that tongues is not important or it's wrong or prophecy is Wrong.

He's just saying that this one's better because everyone gets to benefit from it and then he goes on to explain how to handle that and how to do all that and and I know they're like So He's asking we have any proof text or something more than actual human language

And I can answer that too because in 1st Corinthians 14 2 for one who speaks in tongues and that's really the

Terminology, there's an unknown tongue though. That could be something unlearned to self or something. That's ununderstood

Okay, versus in the Acts chapter 2. It was a known tongue. They heard it in their own

Language and so there's a lot of unpacking there that can go with that But just to keep it short

Where I landed on this and it goes on with orderly service and I'm not trying to belabor that but in the end verse 39 is really what solidified it for me of why

I have to Believe that this is still possible Because the instruction to the church because we preach these books in the

Bible as instruction to the local church Paul's instruction to the local church was so my brothers earnestly desire to prophesy

And do not forbid speaking in tongues But all things to be done decently in order.

So either that is applicable to today or it's not Okay It made me it's maybe it's just for these people only and if that's the case how much of the book of 1st

Corinthians Do we have to say was written only to the Corinthian church that Corinthians congregation that we shouldn't preach it

To our congregation except just that from a historical standpoint Or do we preach it that hey, here's instruction to the local church and so for me,

I'm very simple -minded I think this is instruction to the church then it's instruction to the church now and so So again,

I know that raises more questions than answers, but that again is I think it's really simple. I think

Paul just makes it like Just like the weakest dishwater if you will the old country boy said, you know,

I mean, it's just like Here's here's baby baby bite by baby bite by baby bite of how

How this very misunderstood expects in our day and time and obviously during their day and time

It's very misunderstood. Yeah, this is its purpose This is where it fits.

This is where it doesn't fit and if there's anything that's going on outside of this it's out of order It's it's not decent.

It's out of order and it's chaotic and should not be used in the body. So amen And I would yeah, that was very well said and I would add though that that Glossa that term for tongues that's used throughout the scriptures although in some pet in like that passage it may be ambiguous, but throughout the majority, which is how you know, the

The the rule of the rule of faith or the role of biblical interpretation is that the the the many contexts

Determine, you know, the the ambiguous ones that Glossa is an actual language not an unknown language or not in not like a a secret language sure or something that's

Unintelligible by absolutely no one. It's it's a actual It's an actual known language, even though it may not be understood

By the individual the only place we have earlier is in if you take it literal and I know that I don't

I don't I Don't split hairs over what you just say because I 100 % agree to you at minimal.

It's unknown to me Yeah, I do that It's unknown to me. But but it better be known to someone else if it's done in the church, right?

Exactly. So and and the second part of that is if it's in first Corinthians 13 if there is

If there is such a thing as tongues of angels If there is in other words, there is a reference to a language that's not of the earth

But it's but it's of the tongues of angels Perhaps again,

I don't die on that deal The guys that that always want to debate me on this is the masters theology guys in the

MacArthur Knights If it's a heavenly language

Earthly language that somebody else know I'm okay with that In one one more thing just to just to add again just by way of reference

It's a turn of phrase that Paul uses So he uses it there in first Corinthians 13 and he uses the same phraseology

In Galatians if I or an angel come and preach to you any other gospel, right?

So he uses that turn of phrase twice there Can I say something real quick Do you guys know about the first Great Awakening?

Okay, and do you guys would acknowledge that it was a movement of God right where God you

George Whitfield and you know a host of others to Jonathan Edwards Jonathan Jonathan II right, you know what

I mean? So if you Here's something for your investigations and for your own studies later, right?

So take the case. Here's the case study Look at the first Great Awakening Knowing that's a legit accepted movement, right?

and then take the gifts of the Spirit in terms of the cares met the charismatic expressions of them and Then go look for them in that context in that case study

Because you have the same context in Acts chapter 2 You got a dead orthodoxy going on in society

Yeah, you got the gospel being preached for the first time kind of in that society again you got

People from different languages right like Native Americans and like get all kinds of people there

You have almost the exact same settings of Acts chapter 2. So go look Read Edwards read read all those guys, but read specifically things they they said about the

About the you know, the you know, the concerts of people like how did they respond?

What was going on? Because if you agree, like you said before that this is a legit movement of God then and The conditions are the same as Acts chapter 2 or very close to it

You got to look at it the same context and be like, okay. Well Where are these type of things, right?

It all depends on whose historical account you read Read them all

There you know, I've read about everything that Jonathan Edwards ever wrote and there are things that Edwards wrote when you read the

Historical accounts of the Quakers for example in the midst of that. How did they get their name Quakers?

They should Something with Pennsylvania, maybe I don't know Because it says that they shook

Under this they quaked under the Did you read

Jonathan Edwards address to Yale yeah, and Here was part of my thesis paper with Jonathan Edwards It depends on at what phase of his life you're reading him as well.

You know, it wasn't that I'm saying he's inconsistent But but there's definitely Like when you read his thesis and his doctrine and defense of the

Holy Spirit even his defense of cessation of it I'm gonna know this kind of stuff. He's so philosophical that he's like a slippery worm

Like like to nail him to the wall Exactly It's like nailing jello down because there's just as many people that argue that Jonathan Edwards was a

Continuous as there are they argue that he was the station's, you know, so it's okay I mean, I I'm I'm alright guys.

Then again All I'm saying is I don't I don't disagree with you Jesse that that We do believe the

Great Awakening Was an act of God across the eastern part of the United States From the northern parts down to Florida and all those kind of things but if you but if you in that same timeline and time frame brown pool revivals and and And you know that follow after that or whatever you want to say

There's been all these other places that were supposedly awakenings and movements you know, we have to be

Wondering it's it's a question mark to me. Does that make sense? I don't exit right it's a question mark because there were things that were way out of bounds

Right, then there were still things that God still did in the midst of that and the Sousa Street revivals

You know when you start doing that and then what happened in the Great Ireland revivals And when you just start reading through all those things that break out even from that Great Awakening and the

Continuation of what happened in Canada and the wakening that happened in Canada. And I mean so it's

I just think again we have to we have to be careful not to take an experience somewhere and say

This is what it has to look like That's the whole point even acts 2 I would not say that a

Great Awakening has to look like acts 2 in order it for be able to consider the Great Awakening I thank

God. It's always doing a new thing He's told us that behold I do a new thing and he's doing that in The gospel, of course, the

New Testament is exactly what he's talking about But how God reaches people in Iraq right now

I'm reading stories of unreached people groups where where and I have friends in in Southeast Asia and these places and And my friends are unable to go anywhere

Because they're healed but people are coming to them and people are asking. How did you know to come to me? And they will say

Jesus told me in a dream To come to this house with this ex color with this ex route and find this man and he will tell you about me

And so who am I to say God doesn't do that Does that make sense? so I'm just saying when it comes to that God does as he pleases to save his children from their sin and and So I'm just very careful from my experience to say

I don't have this so therefore it can't happen or I do have this So it must happen. I think either side of that's wrong.

And so going back to just our original text of 1st Corinthians 14 my question always

To continuous and cessation Is this just a historical passage or this instruction to the local church?

and if it's instruction to the local church Which I choose to believe it is Then this is therefore do not forbid speaking in tongues and say that you may prophesy and then

I have to know biblically what that means to instruct my congregation on that or If we're sensationalist, then that has to be just simply a historical passage.

It's only for the book Only for the people of Corinth and then you've got to discern how much of the rest of the book of Corinth of that of the book of Corinthians was only for Corinth versus how much is for us and I'm not smart enough to figure that out.

You know, if that is the case just to be honest, so So that's the defense that I think people have to take when you're going to have a sensationalism versus continualism

It really has to come back to the book. It has to come back to the Bible Of what is instruction to the

New Testament Church? What is historical to the New Testament Church? What is prescribed to the New Testament Church?

What versus what is described as something that happened in history to the New Testament Church? And that's why I take the book of Acts.

That's a descriptive book Even though there are things in there that can be like prescribing It's very descriptive of what was happening in that New Testament Church age

But evidently it continued on through other generations and other locations Historically But there's also things that I think

Paul says this is my instruction. I'm not just describing something to you This is my instruction of how to handle situations in the

New Testament Church And he's obviously doing that in my opinion here first Corinthians 14. So that's that's where I land on it

So I appreciate the context. Yes. I really do. I mean, but This goes from there because I just read that Jonathan Edwards on this wrong

Address to that to the news to the new school year at Yale and there was a later in his life and yeah

I read it and I was very fascinated of how well balanced he was in addressing

You know the genuine movement of God, but at the same time because the room the faculty at Yale Was they were more leaning on the skeptical side like hey, you know that this is at the very least it's

It's a cause for concern and it's highly questionable So imagine being surrounded by that, right?

Knowing, you know, you're Jonathan Edwards And so I thought he was a really he handled that really well because he addressed their concerns

And he gave legit examples to satisfy them And and he appealed, you know to the

Bible and he's like, here's this verse that verse. I understand what you're saying Here's an example and then and then he's like, here's some real examples of what happened, you know on this day you know and According to this report and here's the

Bible verse Bible verse Bible. So like I think I thought I was very surprised about that one and That address was actually

I think days after Yale expelled George Whitfield For making a comment.

That's one of his tutors had less of the Holy Spirit than a chair That's why

I love Whitfield Yeah, Dr. Squintum is one of my favorites

There was the room the room was definitely filled with you know Those who were like really skeptical but for the wrong reasons not because they were interested in theology or whatever they were interested in like What Yale was already departing from the faith at that time?

They were like starting to move to the Unitarian and stuff like that So, you know, so he was speaking to a room filled with that kind of air, you know

So I thought was interesting when you you know, whenever you get it when you get a chance to read that just read it cuz it's a fascinating balanced approach of Both a critique and a reinforcement of it

Each other I think hey man, can I share one story real quick about? Yeah. Yeah.

I love it And this is again evidence that the Lord can Can use anything right to to convict and convert the sinner?

Whitfield sermons were of course published at that and back in his day and There was a group that was actually out to get him called the hellfire

Club They met in taverns and bars. I believe I'm telling this right y 'all correct me if I'm wrong, but They at the bar, of course, all the men were gathered in and they would make fun of him because of his cross

I But there was one man got up with the with the transcript of Whitfield sermon climbed up on a barstool and began to you know, read the sermon out loud and Turned out that man got saved

Mocking Whitfield But it was the Word of God that converted him or convicted him and converted him, but God used the

You know a drunk man's climbing up on a barstool mocking the preacher Save him.

So that was awesome. Amen George Whitfield have a nickname for his prayer reading before he went to the

America Remember was it called a holy fire club because of that that would make sense that the

Opposition called him. Well, he was part of the Holy Club with the Holy Club before he goes Right because it sounds a lot familiar like the hellfire club.

I was like, yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah, his testimony is is

I love his testimony. Oh, yeah And you would have a lot of those guys including

Whitfield would describe multiple post -salvation Experiences with the Holy Spirit, you know,

I mean, I don't know that they'd call it an additional baptism But going back to the jolts that was asked the question

Most of these great men of God in the great awakening Do have post -salvific jolts that launched them that launched them into Pretty unique things

Charles Spurgeon Described a jolt like that every time he read a sermon from George Whitfield that every time he read this man

There were quick quickenings in his spirit. Yeah, that's such a good word quickening We started the ministry one time called quickening ministries.

That was one of my favorite ministry titles that we ever had was quickening ministries so Yeah, I remember the first time

I went to a church that preached in the King James and they're talking about just God judging the quick in the dead.

I'm like what? The living in the dead brother

Since we didn't get to and then you close out brother. Yeah. Yeah We've had some good words

Oh We got a

Robert you always empower us to share the gospel. Amen. We've all talked a lot tonight. You've said there been quiet Would you share the gospel tonight?

I'm asking I don't want to take him under But we'd like to hear from you tonight if that's okay, and then

I hope I hope everybody Can that watches this? Can see that that we actually are very unified around the

Holy Spirit There's these little nuances that we can Sharpen one another with but there's not a soul that's been on this podcast tonight.

It doesn't love Jesus Love the Father and love the Holy Spirit Every one of us and are dependent on and I hope people see that tonight in the unity in that so it's it's always fun

This is one of my favorite topics to like sharpen one another with but But Robert you've been really quiet tonight.

We've talked over you. We talked around you. We talked through you Always a good host. So why don't you preach a minute and let us hear the gospel.

I mean well I appreciate you asking and and when I finished Jesse, would you close us in prayer?

And I did want to answer your question about 1st Corinthians, you know, how do we decide?

Which to which applies to us in 1st Corinthians and I wanted to be funny about it make a funny comment about it

But I mean in a serious note, you know, if if tongues were signed If they were for a purpose and if they ceased then it may be an easier task than You know, we may think

To to decide well that was for then and we can leave it there in 1st

Corinthians If it was those things, you know for that time But that's my comment on that but I thank all of you for your time tonight your participation your knowledge

And you're edifying me. I really appreciate it and When it comes to the good news

Now that I know Christ I Realize how much I need him every day the things that I go through the the person that I am how

I can't handle things on my own mentally emotionally I Realize more and more every day that I live how much

I need Christ. Amen, but the Those things and and having those things

Satisfied in my life Do not hold a candle To the knowledge that God has given me when he opened my eyes to my sinful flesh and the man that I am through Adam the first Adam Because their disobedience

Adam and even a guardian garden that has affected all of mankind and that Includes me and that includes you

We were born into sin. We can't help but do anything but sin and we need someone outside of ourselves to rescue us and God so graciously opened my eyes

To that need that I need a Savior that I need rescuing. I need saved from Myself and I need saved from God's wrath.

I need saved from his justice because his justice was aimed at me because I have sinned against a holy

God and Therefore I deserve a holy righteous and just punishment

I've broken every single one of the Ten Commandments in spirit at least and we all have if we're honest, we've all broken

God's law We've all sinned against him. We've all been disobedient. We've all lied stolen we've

Not always put God first. We've been disobedient to our parents. We blasphemed his name

The list could go on and on and on In James chapter 2 verse 10 says if we've kept the whole law and yet even stumble at one point

We're guilty of it all We are doomed because of our sin

But praise the Lord He sent his one and only Son and he says that everyone believing in him will not perish but have everlasting life

Amen, so if you come to him tonight Repenting and turning from your sins being done with yourself and Put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

He has promised to save you He will give you a new heart a new life with new desires and then

When you have him when you've been baptized by the Holy Spirit when you've been sealed by the

Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit has Made residence in your heart You will begin to be

See your continuous need of him every day and you'll be thankful for it so We plead with you that if you've not done so trust in Jesus Jesse would you close us in prayer?

Yes. Yes Dear Heavenly Father, thank you so much for these group of men that are just dedicated to searching the scriptures and leaning on you

Continually and I pray Lord that you keep us leaning on you continually That's the one thing that I do want to continue in father is to lean on you continually and I know everybody here wants to do that, you know, and may you correct us

Lord and just Get rid of us if we choose not to Lord, but please keep us safe in your hands and may you face shine upon us

May your benevolence and your grace ever grow in our hearts and our minds and the family

Everything we touch Lord may it turn to gospel everything we see may it look at eternity and everything we think may it just Ponder more about the gospel

Lord and may we be shut whenever we think we could question you like Job Just shut us up Lord because sometimes we we just want to ask dumb questions and challenge you father because Of our manhood and things but father, please keep us checked

Keep us checked father like like you like you did a job. You said challenge me see what happens father

Keep us keep us humble. Keep us safe We pray for our families. I pray for everybody's family that you'd protect them there's a lot of people that wish us ill that would love to see us fall and You know,

I know there's a devil Lord that wants us that wants us back But Lord, we ain't going back and he's calling and in and calling those names father and we pray that you would

Answer him father for you're the only one qualified to answer all his all his lies and accusations

So protect us father as we go on about our days protect us at work

Protect us with our spouses protect our wives Protect our lovely wives father.

Please in the name of Jesus We give you praise to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in your name

We we pray. Amen Thank you guys for watching we really appreciate it

We enjoy spending time with you And as always we'd like to remind you to remember that Jesus is

King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.