Ratzinger on Purgatory

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reform to Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. You're talking with the new American Taliban. We were sent a email notification this afternoon from a Catholic website no less Informing us that the folks at news are which I had never seen before.

Had put up a link to a story about Steven Anderson and I knew I guess there was a danger in Linking in putting the the search items into Yesterday's video that I did. I wanted people who were looking for Steven Anderson to find my response to Steven Anderson and hello I have no idea what that was.

Oh, there it is. And You're welcome and So as a result here I see this and it's been fixed thankfully somebody got through to him but here's this this picture and There I am from my video yesterday. And under it the new American Taliban.

They had confused me and Steven Anderson and So for a while I was the head of the new American Taliban, but I have been removed from that position. So that's a good thing. I'm very happy to no longer.

Be be.

It's very nice article from the I think was it inside Catholic inside Catholicism something like that and had It didn't say terrible horrible anti-catholic Anti this so on so forth. It actually identified me for who I am and what I've actually done.

It was it was very refreshing it was very nice and. So I appreciate that but in light of that I Want to again, thank everyone who has pretty much decimated the ministry resource list. I'm gonna be putting some on it.

Hopefully next week. You know what I need rich. Rich is busy clearing calls and. But. But rich can multitask because he is he is a highly professionally trained broadcast Professional. Is that what it is?

That's what that's what rush says, but. Anyway, we are. How many years of training if we had to do this. Is that before or after the radio stint? The radio stint counts, okay, so.

11 years. Well from the kpxq days about 11 years and then before that was probably.

Section there about four or five years. Yeah, we've we've we've started doing this in 80. 88 was it 88 was that lady or 89. It may have been 87 because I remember. Well that wasn't dividing line. No, but I remember going down to kpxq on my Yamaha 750 so I was 20.

You mean.

K XEG was that KXEG then? Yeah, that's KXEG. That was. That's right. That's right talking about Mormonism.

I was 20 radio station next to the train tracks.

No, this was even before it moved there. This was when it was downtown.

Yeah, we did do some downtown stuff and then it's been a long time next to the train tracks. That was a real trip trying to get a program in and hope that the trains don't come by.

Remember that now I had forgotten.

You know you start feeling everything's shaking. You and Mike would be in the studio and I had this old-fashioned push-button phone outside. And I was sitting on the floor and I would write the question down and slip a note underneath the door and Mike.

It was high-tech folks, there's no two ways about.

Then we got to kpxq and look at it all over and they had all kinds of Bells and whistles and technology and stuff and I like what we got now though. And but it was a different engineer every week and usually they were a weekend engineer and they didn't really.

Yeah, we can. Engineers are scary.

So eventually I just kind of said guys, would you just let me do it? Yeah.

It was a key and everything. Yeah, remember that I do remember that. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really wasn't looking for all that much but hey.

Yes.

Anyways, I was gonna tell you you know what I need I am tired of coming home without usable video of my debates, we're still eight debates down from 2008 and I'm hoping that that situation is gonna get fixed, but I Still don't have any debates.

And my little Casio camera is great And it's nice to be able to you know, have that as backup throw it something up on YouTube, but that's not DVD able there are little cameras that have extremely long battery life and lots of memory in them or To get really long battery life.

You'd have to have like a 16 gig or 32 gig SD card or something like that, but that you can put on a tripod and you can get at least SD if not HD video and I just need to be able to have all those things set it up and forget it until the debates over and Then we've got the video That's not a two-camera shoot.

That's not all pretty and everything like that but that's what we need to do it needs to be small needs to be transportable and That's just that's what we just got to do it because I'm tired. I mean, I'm eight debates down man That's that's that's not good.

And I'm still hoping to get them with all the London debates the Duke debate all that stuff I'm still hoping to see it, but it's You know, we're in September of 2009 and it's been over a year for most of them 18 months for at least one or two and That's very very Exceptionally frustrating and so I just need to do something about it and technology has gone a long way So I'm I'm looking for that if you've got some suggestions you might want to write them in because I'm gonna be putting something on the ministry resource list because we've just I'm just Evidently especially, you know when I'm traveling and I'm doing a debate The only way I'm gonna get this stuff is to do it that way I've got to got to take care of it myself.

So That's just sort of the way it is. So anyway, I was talking about the Resource list. Sorry about that and we were I got three folks online. So I'll get to that in just a moment.

But I.

Ratzinger on Purgatory and the Limits of Catholic Apologetics

One of the books that I received from The ministry source list is by Joseph Ratzinger also known as the current Pope Eschatology death and eternal life second second edition and So I turned to the chapter on hell purgatory and heaven.

And.

I started reading through this and Remember I played and I didn't have time to get it queued up. I thought about playing it again. But I played the comments by one Tim Staples On the subject of purgatory and You know, he was he was quite Firm in his assertion that first Corinthians chapter 3 is is very plain in Teaching this doctrine of purgatory.

So I figured well if an apologist thinks it's plain then the Pope It should be really plain, right? I mean he is the head of the visible Church.

He's the.

Vicar of Christ on earth and he's infallible and things when he's defining matters of faith and morals and all that stuff. And so I finally found the discussion of first Corinthians chapter 3. I want to read it to you.

Then we'll go to our calls. This is on page 228. In the wake of this brief historical sketch the question remains. What is the authentic heart of the doctrine of purgatory? What is its rationale in listening in to the patristic discussion?

We had occasion to mention first Corinthians 3 10 through 15 for this text. There is a foundation Jesus Christ in which some build with gold silver and precious stones and others with wood hay and straw.

What each one has in fact built will be brought to light by the day of the Lord. And then the quotation of the text J. Nilka. It's G and I on G and I L K. So if it's Polish, it might be pronounced differently than that.

J. Nilka has shown that this testing fire indicates the coming Lord himself Echoing a passage of prophet Isaiah. It is an image for the majesty of the self-revealed God the unapproachability of the all-holy.

According to Nilka who here sets himself over against the opinion of Jeremias. This excludes any interpretation of the text in terms of purgatory. There is no fire only the Lord himself. There is no temporal duration involved only eschatological encounter with the judge.

There is no purification only the statement that such a human being will be saved only with exertion and difficulty. But it is by following justice exegesis that one is led to wonder whether there whether its manner of posing the question is correct and its Criteria adequate if one presupposes now listen to this if one presupposes a naively objective concept of purgatory then of course the text is silent now, that's the Pope and And What better description than what Roman Catholic apologists like Tim Staple are defending than a naively Objective concept of purgatory that the Pope says the text is silent about uh-huh, I Continue my quotation, but if conversely we hold it purgatory now listen listen to the Pope talking about purgatory now I can't I can't go back and If you want to see what Rome once really believed up purgatory Get is that FX shoop.

I think it's sh. Oh you PPE it's on the shelf in the other room FX soups book on purgatory from tan book publishers and All this modern stuff about well. It's a state of mind or a state of being or that's not what Rome taught all along.

Anybody who is even semi honest with the historical information? Knows That purgatory was a place Where spirits of the departed, but who are justified go Where they suffer? Torments for the temporal punishments of their sins that were not remitted during life and There's all these visions of people who become Saints.

Rome has made these people Saints. Who had visions of other Saints or other people who were in purgatory? They weren't they were saying so wouldn't go to purgatory. But they're there you know and they're in there bathed in flame, and they're in torment and and folks there would be no st Peter's today if people hadn't been afraid of purgatory as a place where people go and suffer for a long long long long time because that's what indulgences are all about and so you know the the whole thing with the the Carmelites and the Scapular and The promise that Mary would descend on the Saturday after your death.

To remove you from from purgatory if there's Saturday in purgatory folks that means there's got to be a Friday. And a Thursday and a Wednesday. There's time for crying out loud. It's obvious. I mean you really have to just just Completely throw out history and what people plainly believed or say they were all wrong.

All the Popes and all the bishops and all the priests, so they're all wrong and Because we modern Roman Catholics are right well anyway It's plain that Rome functioned on the belief of purgatory as a Place of the punishment of the soul, and there's lots of Catholics who still believe that to this day, right?

Alright, so listen to your Pope. All right, here's here's he's he's Mentioned Nilka's interpretation, which says there's no room for purgatory this fire is an encounter with Jesus. All right, now you tell me if he's totally rejecting that when he says.

If one presupposes a naively objective concept of purgatory then of course the text is silent. But if conversely we hold that purgatory is understood in a properly Christian way when it is grasped Christologically in terms of the Lord himself as the judging fire which transforms and conforms us to his own glorified Body, then we shall come to a very different conclusion.

Does not the real Christianizing of the early Jewish notion of a purging fire lie precisely in the insight that the purification Involved does not happen through some thing but through the transforming power of the Lord himself whose burning flame cuts free our closed-off heart.

Melting it and pouring into a new mold to make it fit for the living organism of his body and What in any case can it mean in concrete terms when Nilka remarks that some? Will have will be saved only after exertion with difficulty.

In what does such exertion difficulty consist? Would this not become a merely mythical statement. Should it say nothing about man himself and more specifically about the manner of his entry into Salvation.

Surely these terms must refer not to something external to man. But to the man of little face heartfelt submission to the fire of the Lord which will draw him out of himself Into that purity which befits those who are gods.

One really can't object that Paul is only talking here about the last day as a unique event. That would be hermeneutical naivete. Though exercised in the opposite sense and the type we considered in parts four and five and six of this book Man does not have to strip away his temp his temporality in order thereby to become eternal Christ as judges ha eschatos the final one in relation to whom we undergo judgment both after death and on the last day.

In the perspective we are offered here those two judgments are indistinguishable. A Person's entry into the realm of manifest reality is an entry into his definitive destiny and thus an immersion in eschatological fire.

The transforming moment of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is indeed not eternal. But a transition and yet trying to qualify it as as of short or long duration.

On the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and.

Unproductive I.

Beg to differ it was very productive. That's how you got st. Peter's. It was very productive. You got lots of money out of that to temporality. The temporal measure of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence in a passing over where we are burned air.

We are transformed to measure such existence site. Such an existential time in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with and differentiation from the world.

The essential Christian understanding of purgatory has now become clear. Purgatory is not a strata lian thought some kind of super worldly Concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion.

Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation which a person becomes capable capable of Christ Capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of Saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process.

It does not replace grace by works. But allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace what actually saves the full ascent of faith. But in most of us that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood hay and straw.

Only with difficulty can appear out from behind the latticework of an egoism. We are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy yet This does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed and counter with the Lord is.

This transformation it is the fire that burns away our dross and reforms us to be vessels of eternal joy. This insight will contradict the doctrine of grace only if penance were the antithesis of grace and not its form the gift of a gracious possibility.

The identification of purgatory with the church's penance and Cyprian and Clement is Important for drawing our attention to the fact that the root of the Christian doctrine of purgatory is the Christological grace of penance.

Purgatory follows by an inner necessity from the idea of penance the idea of constant readiness for reform which marks a forgiven sinner, etc etc and so You you just you just don't get the same sense.

From.

Then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Ratzinger. That you do from from the Roman Catholic apologists. Somehow the Pope isn't as clear about this as the apologists are. In fact it has been suggested by more than one person that Ratzinger had and You can see some elements of it in that had suggested that purgatory is a instantaneous change.

Isn't that what Protestants think happens at death instant sanctification?

Well.

Interesting stuff isn't it. Yes most definitely. Well. Much more on that. Because I am very hopeful that sometime over the next month and a half or so. Probably it'll be after the Dan Barker debate, but hopefully not too long after that.

We haven't worked out the dates yet, and I've worked a time yet. But I'm hoping to have a guest on the dividing line to discuss this by the name of Tim Staples. He said he's willing to do it so we just have to figure out when.

So I'm really hoping that's gonna happen because I want to discuss first Corinthians chapter 3 and I've been looking at what a bunch of Roman Catholic scholars say about it, and they're not nearly as confident.

As mr. Staples is besides that there's just this little problem of the exegesis of the text which has Nothing whatsoever to do with the historic doctrine of purgatory now if you want to change the doctrine of purgatory into well.

What Protestants have believed all along? That's fine, but that sort of isn't Normally what Roman Catholic apologists are doing eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number.

Let's Get to our phone calls here and talk with Marcus. Hi Marcus.

Hello, how are you doing doing good your opinion after 13 verse 40? I noticed that there's a contrast being made first 46. Paul and Barnabas told the religious leader they rejected the gospel themselves were their salvation first 48.

They were. That was why they believe we rejecting the gospel, then it's on us.

But if we believe well, there's there's no question outside of grace. No one's going to believe so that's the. The rejection of of the gospel is is going to be a given outside of the opening of the heart.

I mean Jesus said no one is able to come to me unless the father's how he draws him so. But for the Jews there's a specific context here. They're in a synagogue. You have had the promises that have been delivered to the people of Israel.

Explained to them the the scriptures have been open to them. And what's really going on back up to verse 44 the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord but when the Jews saw the crowds they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul and were blaspheming.

So there is a Well, you know you you read first second Thessalonians and you read some of Acts and you read Some of Galatians and there is obviously a very strong opposition to Paul's missionary efforts.

By the Jews in the local cities, and here's an example of it there, but this one is is not simply due to Just a Rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus there's jealousy here. There is a shall we say petty motivations in involved here.

And so they've they've heard the word of the Lord in the previous meeting in the synagogue the Word of God has been brought to bear and as a result of that The Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said it was necessary the Word of God be spoken to you first.

Because that was the apostolic example they would go in the synagogues. They would proclaim to the Jewish people the people who already possessed the scriptures. That was that was how they did it. They went to the Jews first then to the Gentiles since you repudiate it that is they were blaspheming.

They were they were repudiating what's what's called the Word of God here. Which is an interesting indication that not only was what they were preaching. It's not just the citation of the Old Testament here.

But the apostolic interpretation is identified as the very Word of God here since you repudiate it. They are they are rejecting the Word of God and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life. Behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

So here you have the same proclamation. Being made in regards to the Jews that that Jesus makes for example in Matthew chapter 23. They have they have it's very similar to what Jesus says in Matthew 23 37 about the Jewish leaders.

They they're trying to keep people from hearing the truth. So we you do your judgment has come upon you and now we turn to to the Gentiles and. And. But not all the Gentiles are going to be saved. I mean Acts chapter 17 Paul's gonna stand on Mars Hill.

So in verse 48 when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing glorifying the Word of the Lord. But even then not every Gentile saying the audience said oh, hey, you know, we're in as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed and so.

You know, like I said to a caller a few weeks ago I don't think Acts 13 48 is meant to be an explication of the doctrine of election. I don't think that it's the first place you go. I think it is demonstrative of the fact that in the thinking of the of the writers.

This was just a given it could be it could be mentioned in passing because it was just that obvious. It was that that much that that's uh, you know. It's similar to I think Paul's statement that he endures all things for the sake of the elect.

So they might be saved. It's it's it's it just doesn't even it's not even controversial. He he recognizes that when he proclaims the gospel after all those years of doing that He has seen when he proclaims the gospel.

There's different responses and he knows that any positive response of the sinful soul of man. To the message of redemption is due to the sovereign grace of God. He knows that but since we don't know who the elect are we proclaim the gospel to every creature and.

That's that's how how they did it. And that's how we do it, too.

Does that answer your question? Yeah, that has like as a proof text for election. Well, it's it's important.

I think it's a proof text in the sense of whether someone will allow the text to speak for itself. I mean, it's clearly what it is talking about, but it's not the intention of Luke in Acts 1348 to explicate this.

He just mentions it in passing it's it's a it's a clear recognition of the reality of the sovereignty of God in salvation that there were People who were appointed to eternal life and as a result they believed.

He doesn't explain that that's that's elsewhere. And what worries me is when people try to come up with all sorts of incredible ways around This text, I mean, that's what Dave Hunt does and and that's what that's what everybody does they yeah, well, it's actually You know it's actually a middle and it's not really a passive and and they don't recognize that it's a Paraphrastic and they just come up with all sorts of wild and wacky ways if you go back and listen to the debate I did with Steve Gregg.

Yeah, I mean it it it's correctly translated in the vast majority of English translations. You don't have to come up with the Jehovah's Witness excuse and the Dave Hunt excuse and Of course the greatest excuse of all time, which was this was originally written in Hebrew.

And that in the never-before-seen Hebrew it actually means this that's the Dave Hunt What love is this third edition excuse for X 1348, which just it's hilarious. That's that to me is where it becomes extremely useful is if you have to engage in all that stuff then.

You're not really dealing with this subject in a biblical manner. But the same time I think on our side we have to say hey, this is not Ephesians 1. This is not Romans 9. This is not John 6. This is not John 10.

It is not the text intention to explain all of this. It just asserts it and You go on from there. Well verse 46 is you know just flows from the natural Biblical teaching concerning that the nature of man in a specifically in this context.

The hardening of the people of Israel. I mean the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, and now you've got Jewish leaders Out beyond Jerusalem, but they're responding in the same way and these specifically out of jealousy, which was one of the Motivations that caused the Jews to do what they did in Jesus's life as well in his ministry, too.

Okay, all right, okay, thanks Marcus, thanks for calling god bless eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's talk with oh Boy, I hate to hit this close time to the to the break throw somebody on there and then say Let's take a break.

So let's just skip the break and talk to Kyle. Hi Kyle.

Hey, thanks for letting me on. My question was in regards to should I not have done that or. No, no, no, my question is friendly. Um, I wanted to ask you about sola gratia or grace alone and My question is if someone is an Arminian as opposed to someone who's reformed How are they going to view the doctrine of grace alone in a different way or would they view in a different way?

And if so, how well?

Yeah.

Sola gratia Does is going to be greatly impacted by? A synergistic system because When they say grace alone Again, just like the Roman Catholics Historically what they're saying is that grace is primary grace is necessary.

But grace is not sufficient. So so the gratia is sola only in the sense of its primacy. Not in the sense of its sufficiency and that was the issue of the Reformation. I have said it so many times. It just drives me crazy when I hear leading Non-catholic speakers get all excited.

I remember listening to Norm Geisler on the Bible Answer Man broadcast once and he was talking about if you just look at the Council of Trent the Rome's says that Anathema ties is anyone who would say that you can be saved.

Apart from grace, you know, we need to be accurate. Well, he's exactly right, of course. The Council of Trent did exactly that.

But.

At the very same time the issue of the Reformation was never the necessity of grace. Never that's that's Pelagianism. The issue of the Reformation was not the necessity of grace. It was the sufficiency of grace and unfortunately many people today who call themselves Non-catholics are on the Catholic side when it comes to that particular issue of whether grace is Both necessary and sufficient.

All right. Thanks. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. You know what we got through that one fast enough. Can can you still bring it up? Hi kid, I think I can go find a Gatorade here real quick before we go to Arlen in California and your calls at Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll drive back.

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

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Thank you.

I'll go back to the dividing line. The phones are a-hopping Today so let's talk with Arlen in California. Hi Arlen. How you doing?

While I was in Uganda and one of them actually engaged us in a debate and one thing I found Really difficult to to to reason put through the language barrier partially. But one particular argument that reminded me a lot of a lot of many Muslim apologists I've heard is bill.

He just repeated the phrase, you know, God cannot reproduce God cannot have a son, etc, etc, etc and I mean. It's not difficult for me myself to think through that and and and recognize that's a bad argument.

But do you know of any effective ways of explaining that from the ground up with someone who? Fundamentally does not recognize the term son being able to even be applied to someone in the Godhead.

Yeah, that's that what you're really dealing with there other than the language is just the the depth of the False teaching that is the Quran itself. I mean that's coming directly from Surah 112 let me yell it while I'm Yola there.

He neither begets nor is he begotten and it is just Pounded into the Muslims head that what the Christians are saying is that God? Begat a son in time and most of them believe via a relationship with with Mary and so the only way to to try to to deal with that is Just you know, there's there's two ways to approach it.

I mean if you have enough time you can actually use it as a demonstration of the fact that the Quran is not the Word of God because that's not what Christians believed in AD 600 or 610 or 632 wherever you want to place The the Quranic revelation at that point and therefore if it's not an accurate representation of what Christians believe then it can't have come from Allah because Even if the Trinity's wrong Allah knew what the Trinity was in 632.

That's that's if you have enough time to develop that but if you're just dealing with the issue of the relationship of the father and the son What you what you might Want to do is sort of follow along a line something along like this.

Do you believe that Allah is eternal? And of course they do. Now some have may not have thought through the issue of eternal existence. You might have to explain well You know, I don't believe that God is just merely very very old.

I believe that God his his way of existence is Outside the realm of time. It is not measured by a passage of time. In fact, God created time itself and so when we speak of God as being just We mean that he has eternally been just that he did not become just at a point in time that it is his nature.

To be just and we speak of God as love God has eternally been loving it is his nature. He does not enter into the state of being loving at a point in time in The same way when we talk about the father and the son we are talking about a relationship that has always Been God did not beget Jesus in the and the father did not and it's very important to start Using father and son because they in their mind father is always Allah and You need to try to break that that down by distinguishing between father and son.