June 5, 2018 Show with Tom Niewulis on “The Tale of Two Constitutions: From Covenant to the Present Constitution”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:08

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

00:16

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:23

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

00:32

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:46

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

00:57

Now here's our host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

01:04

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:14

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of June 2018, and I'm so delighted to have on the program for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Tom Newillis, and you will probably be correcting me on the pronunciation of that,

01:36

I forgot to ask you that before we went on the air, and he is president and CEO of NCDCS, incorporated with over 30 years in business and organizational analysis, strategic planning, financial and organizational management, having delivered business and technical studies and having made presentations at industry conferences in the

01:57

United States and Europe. He's a member of the technical advisory boards for emerging companies as well as the

02:04

Fortune 500. He's an internationally published writer, a member of the National Association of Corporate Directors and the

02:12

World Intellectual Property Organization, whose studies include the U .S. Constitution, the

02:17

Federalist and Anti -Federalist Papers, Joseph Stories, Commentaries, Blackstone, Locke, de

02:25

Kockwill, Madison's Notes, and the various states' ratifying conventions as well as original source writings of Samuel Adams and his contemporaries, the

02:37

Reformation, with an emphasis on the Scottish Reformation, Lex Rex, the Puritans, and Covenant, the

02:43

First Great Awakening, and the sermons the founders heard preached. He's a chair of constitutional economics at the

02:52

Thomas Jefferson Center for Constitutional Studies. He's a board member for We the People Washington.

02:57

He's the author of Not All Conservatives Are Constitutionalists, with three other books in the and we are and he is also a board member at Samuel Adams Center for Political Science and a blogger at samueladamsreturns .net.

03:14

Today we are discussing the tale of two constitutions from Covenant to the present

03:20

Constitution and I'm sorry ladies and gentlemen we're out of time already. Oh my!

03:27

That's not what you're talking about! It's my honor and privilege to welcome for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron, Tom Newillis, and if you could

03:38

Tom correct me if I'm mispronouncing your name. It's close, it's Newillis, so the

03:44

W like a V. Newillis. Got it. Great. Almost sounds

03:50

Russian, is it? Lithuanian. Oh okay, and I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away.

03:58

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com if you have any questions for Tom that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

04:07

please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

04:13

USA. Well before we get into some of your testimony as I typically do when we have a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron radio we have our guest give a summary of what kind of religious upbringing they had if any and how our sovereign lord got a hold of them and used providence in their lives to draw them closer to him and ultimately to salvation.

04:40

But before we do that why don't you tell us about the Samuel Adams Center for Political Science. Samuel Adams Center for Political Science is developed to reach to the youth and bring those foundational principles that Sam Adams lived by and brought to our society and do it in a way of mentoring versus strictly teaching or trying to lecture people.

05:11

So in developing those types of relationships with young people high school through college is the full intent and bring those life principles to them to understand what it means to self -govern and then participate in governing whether that's at home at work or if someone would actually go into some political office of school boards to the president.

05:44

Great and tell our listeners about your blog at samueladamsreturns .net.

05:50

Samuel Adams Returns .net is where I do a lot of different blogging from again that foundational perspective of what that all means.

06:00

I also have the archives for my internet radio station there and it references back to samueladamsreturns .com

06:10

where that then is where people can schedule for Mr. Adams to either appear or as we're talking about this book where they can also schedule for me to come in and do the seminars.

06:25

And so the blogging is bringing that historical perspective right to bear and identifying those truths and principles which you know we don't necessarily live by today or don't understand.

06:37

We can't live by because we don't understand them. Well I will get back to Samuel Adams in a moment but now let's hear something about your testimony on your religious upbringing if any and how our

06:51

Lord got a hold of you and saved you. Absolutely. I was raised

06:57

Catholic, went to church, altar boy, all the catechism, did all of the religious activity, went to Catholic school and including for the first couple years of high school

07:12

I went to a private school in Erie Pennsylvania and there were only 50 students in that whole school.

07:18

So it was like if you were at that school you had a straight shot to Villanova without question.

07:25

But there were some things that were occurring there and I just didn't feel a good fit so I went back home and at that time being that high school age and being in a

07:38

Catholic high school I was a little bit rebellious with my parents and going you know what

07:44

I don't think that the church idea means anything for me.

07:51

And during that period of time as we were finishing off that era of the

07:57

Vietnam era and as I was reaching graduation I actually went into a reserve unit when

08:04

I was about 16 years old and as soon as I graduated from high school I went active duty. During that period of time after boot camp and into some of my schools

08:15

I started you know without question getting involved in all the good drinking stuff and all of that but then as I went on to some other schooling

08:26

I met some guys that you know what they had this other idea of a relationship with Christ versus what it meant from just a religion perspective.

08:40

So I did I said okay that makes a lot of sense and I said okay

08:46

I can buy off on that but I really never understood that commitment and then

08:51

I observed them taking in almost being just almost as domineering within a church environment that I came from in the

09:02

Catholics but then as a few another couple years went on I was engaged in an activity

09:08

I was injured and that injury put me in sick bay and I just happened to have been reading the

09:16

Lord of the Rings and that last book and where Frodo was standing there looking at that ring trying to make a determination of what was going on and these guys came up and shared the four spiritual laws and that made a significant impact in understanding the decision process and what was happening and then seeing that the redemptive activity of Christ and what that meant in my life and the sovereignty of God it just grabbed me and that was when

09:53

I made that full commitment to Christ and it changed my life at that point significantly even as far as what

10:00

I ended up in the military a lot of different choices in that regard so that was back around 1975 so it's been an interesting journey ever since.

10:13

Yeah some of the earlier part of your testimony was nearly identical to my own with the exception of your military experience and also my private school or parochial school experience with the

10:28

Catholic church was only from first through eighth grade and then I left parochial school and went to the local public school because that's where most of my friends were but and eventually

10:41

I left Catholic church became a really horrible alcoholic scandalous alcoholic and thankfully the

10:52

Lord saved me eventually and I am now a Reformed Baptist. Now where are you theologically to this in our current day in regard to what church you're a member of and so on?

11:05

Well the church that I intend here in northeast Ohio is one of the larger churches that a number of people probably know who that pastor is here he has one of the very good teaching ministry and radial ministry and all of that where I stand is definitely made that walk and transition through a lot of probably the whole gamut and as I got into understanding and studying the

11:38

Reformation in depth I would say that I am Reformed in that classical sense of the

11:47

Reformation and taking it from that perspective so from a denominational perspective

11:53

I kind of so is it Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Reformed Presbyterian?

12:01

Gosh that's uh you know that's always that interesting conundrum if you will but in understanding probably uh

12:09

I get stuck on Sam Adams because you talk about a Reformed guy he understood the

12:16

Reformation inside and out and that was one of the things that prompted me to uh drive into those studies of what was going on in the founders time and what did they understand as those early

12:28

Congregationalists back to the Puritans so I look at myself more as a modern

12:33

Puritan in that regard and we happen to attend the church we do because it's the closest in good solid

12:43

Bible teaching. Well I'm gonna throw a guess out here, Parkside Church in Cleveland?

12:49

Okay. Well there's no reason to keep that a secret I mean I happen to love

12:55

Alistair Begg in fact I just had a couple of conversations with Alistair at the

13:01

Banner of Truth conference where he was one of the speakers here in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. Uh -huh yeah

13:07

I saw that advertised yeah. So I'm looking forward to having him back on the program it's been a long time and he uh encouraged me to set up another interview with him so that's what

13:17

I'm going to do God willing in the very near future. So when in your life did you develop this fascination and interest in politics and particularly in Samuel Adams?

13:34

Well the interest in politics formulated while I was still in the military and taking a look at what was going on.

13:43

Why were we doing the things we were doing? I spent a little over 12 years in the military and going to the countries that I went to.

13:54

I've had the privilege to go to a lot of countries more than what others may have had and in that I saw just what was going on in those other countries what was happening politically and then

14:08

I started asking well why are we here as a military entity? What is the value purpose and all of that and what does that fit in relationship to what's going on back home?

14:20

How do we govern? What messes are happening there and that's what piqued my interest in trying to discern who runs the boat.

14:31

Is the boat you know driven from the top or is it going back to the declaration of independence and what you know

14:40

I read from the constitution's perspective we the people.

14:48

So how does that all fit when you look at things having been out in that international environment?

14:56

So that got me interested in the political arena and then starting to understand as I studied that you know more things happen locally or should happen locally than they do internationally and just to make a quick step forward and then you bring it back and forth is that the

15:16

Samuel Adams adventure came about back when I guess the tea parties started to rise and people we actually went to a we the people meeting or we're kind of getting involved in that before all of this happened after I left the military in 85

15:34

I started doing citizens meetings so when we were living in the pacific northwest

15:40

I got a grange hall and invited the citizenry to come in and let's have these conversations what was happening locally what was happening in the aspect of our county our state nationally and then some international components and how did that mix how did it fit and where was it that we could participate make our best effort to say all right how are we supposed to be governed so I started that process in 85 but then there was you watch what was happening on a political front and things came to a head in 2008 2009 that tax revolution concept was out there because of the national debt and it was okay what are we doing with this so the folks in Vancouver Washington where we happen to be living at the time they decided that we're let's have a rally and I said oh okay that sounds like a lot of fun and they were looking for someone that would portray

16:43

Samuel Adams well I was studying him a little bit on the periphery and I said oh

16:49

I can do that so I was asked then to be in character portray

16:54

Sam Adams participate in this rally that drew about 35 I think 30 close to 4 000 people and that's what launched

17:04

Sam Adams and from that point I started digging into this character as I was reading

17:10

I'm going wait a minute he's not what modern historians make him out to be he's not the guy that produced beer and all of that I'm sure that's how 90 percent of Americans think of him even when people know that I'm coming to a venue because I did a venue twice at Parkside as Samuel Adams they invited me in and so you're at you actually do like a play then you actually uh portray a play so I do

17:45

I do in character uh dressed as Samuel Adams and you can see that on the

17:52

YouTube channel even I have the Parkside one up on the YouTube channel I it's interactive uh

17:58

I have taken and studied his character and his writings and his life over these uh number of years that I take the challenge of not only talking from a starting point but to change up a venue so it's not boring when people ask me potentially to come back again

18:19

I can go topical from those areas that Mr. Adams engaged in and then

18:26

I do the most silly thing that anybody could do is

18:31

I open uh the time up for questions and that becomes extremely intriguing to actually people start interacting uh with Sam Adams huh that is interesting yeah yeah uh it's kind of it's crazy you know yeah

18:49

I have uh orchestrated probably 30 or more live public theological debates and I used to have a microphone set up where during the question and answer session at the end we would have people get in the line and ask questions but I started to take questions from the list from the audience by written written down on index card instead because the questioners typically would get up and preach sermons rather than ask any questions so I don't

19:23

I don't know how your experience is letting the audience get a hold of a microphone but for those venues

19:31

I think they're so intrigued with the character they actually want to understand from his perspective uh how that may fit into today's environment because I always open uh anything that I do with that whole idea of Proverbs 1 9 there's nothing new under the sun so if we look at life in that perspective and say okay

19:57

God you're sovereign over it all then how does that then relate across uh from those historical perspectives all the way from time to the present and what is it that we're supposed to be able to discern from all of that and apply to those things which are happening today well before we get into who said

20:22

Adams was uh I think it would be helpful for our listeners to get some kind of an idea of where you stand politically um it's not easy uh to really know where a person stands these days politically just by virtue of what label they wear like for instance as you know for somebody to call themselves a republican or a conservative that can mean actually very little as far as finding out what they actually believe and stand for because you do have a wide spectrum of ideologies expressed by people who wear those labels you uh have those that would be far closer to libertarians on one end and you have those that are uh war hawks on the other end and and and some who are barely distinguishable from from democrats or liberals so if you could let our listeners know if in some way shape or form where you stand politically and then we can move on with our discussion on Samuel Adams specifically sure so the easiest way that I described that is a anti -federalist constitutionalist and we will during the course of this interview find out more about what that is yeah that threw you a little bit there uh i had a feeling it wasn't going to be easy yeah and we will so as we proceed yes well one thing that may also help a little bit is for you to uh get in into a little bit of a description of a book that we are not focusing on today but perhaps we can have you back to discuss not all conservatives are constitutionalists the ever -changing definitions what are you an anthology right yes yes yes that was that was i was asked to uh substitute for a phd giving a lecture on constitutionalism and i said holy smokes i've never you know how do i sit in for this guy and he says oh you'll pick up you'll pick up something so i started thinking about it and this again uh when i first wrote that was in 2010 when everything was happening right after the you know what was going on with the midterm elections and watching uh the uh exactly what you said people calling themselves a conservative calling themselves this that or the other thing so i thought oh good that's a great topic is what is a conservative and so as i started going through that it goes through okay what's the meaning of words how do you find these definitions and then the again the spectrum of what you just already spoke to is like all right how do we how do we bring that to something that has a real meaningful value proposition where those points of agreement and uh then it just went from there i did the uh once again i did a seminar lecture before i wrote the book uh after doing that people said boy can you put that in writing so for a number of years it was just a little 50 page uh pamphlet and others uh challenged some of the uh a couple of components in there and i says okay i'll explain myself more and then it turned into uh i can't remember probably a couple hundred page book driving through all of those different ideas of what is a conservative what is a constitutionalist and that uh as you mentioned when you look at it the good majority in my opinion of people calling themselves conservatives have no clue of what constitutionalism is nor how do we govern within a constitutional republic but conservative is a nice title it's a nice name label yeah you said you said you used a key phrase there a constitutional republic because i'm sure you are aware that if you were to do a question and answer on the street uh walking around just uh in a crowded area of a a bustling uh city or perhaps a an active suburb uh near a shopping mall or something and you were to ask people what kind of government the united states has they would say typically i am sure we are a democracy but that's not true is it correct no that that is the common answer that's what we have uh brought into the educational system for the last hundred years and so we're we're at that point now that that's where people think it is so they have no clue which really messes them up and when you ask the question well what's federalism oh and then well what's a republican relationship to that and then how does a constitution work in relationship to those other two terms yeah and i'm going to have you go through those terms after we get into a more in -depth exploration of samuel adams and we're going to begin doing that right after our first station break and as i said before if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

25:59

c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and uh please i know that we've already got some people waiting to have their questions asked and answered but please be patient as we try to explore a little bit further into our topic before we take your questions uh don't go away god willing we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors i am chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of rc sproles book relationship between church and state i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital simply visit wmg .org

27:31

forward slash iron sharpens to get your world trial and dr sproles book all free no obligation with no credit card required visit world news group at wng .org

27:46

forward slash iron sharpens today every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

28:57

that's liyfc .org hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

29:16

eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

29:25

we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground books .com

30:35

that's solid -ground books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned in to iron sharpens iron radio our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is tom nuvolas and we are discussing the tale of two constitutions from covenant to the present constitution if you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

31:10

c h r i s a r n z e n gmail .com well uh samuel adams is obviously a primary figure in your heart and mind and work you are as i mentioned earlier a board member at the samuel adams center for political science and a blogger at samueladamsreturns .net

31:31

tell us about this figure sam adams tell us something even about his own life growing up and how he came to be the man that is considered one of the greatest heroes of american history sam adams simply was raised in a puritan home his mother he was homeschooled for the early years of his life his father was a deacon at first old south and then the new south church which he helped develop a very profound well known as his father in particular not only from his political activism but also from where he was established in his belief and biblical background sam developed that biblical belief and background again from his mother and was very very instituted in those truths he then at an early age ended up going to what was known as latin school at that time which a lot of the young men in the boston area went to he entered harvard at age 14 and what people don't know is at that time that sam was in there he was one of the probably his class was almost one of the last classes that their studies were truly inculcation by rote which means they did not have classical textbooks and everything they studied was by writing it all out his parents hoped and intended him to become a minister but as he studied for the ministry and as he was studying more of those larger historical perspectives within then the biblical concepts he goes there's a lot here that has a relationship to greater society and how we're governed and there were a lot of things that influenced his life looking at what happened with his father especially during french and indian war uh a banking business that he started economy banking he had a very well -rounded background but when he started especially he favored uh the ancient writers because he could read greek and latin uh his hebrew was weak but he could do that and he did not like french at all but he was very good did he ever give a reason why he didn't like french at all it was just it was just what no i couldn't find any reason but it was maybe maybe he didn't like the french well not only when they uh started their crazy revolution he didn't particularly care for that was godless uh but uh when it when it came down to then uh going through now whitfield came through harvard at the time that uh adams was in attendance and that whitfield preaching at harvard impressed him uh very much and so he had then a deeper conviction in his uh his his own personal spiritual walk in life uh his sister mary remained a pentel with whitfield so that was very interesting and there were some things that happened there uh when it came to uh some aspects of how whitfield was helpful uh to the americans to get out of the stamp act so there was something very interesting around that but moving on uh as he then graduated from harvard he uh was very profound in his uh his especially in his thesis and what was a challenge actually to the whole period in the kingdom what what was it to take and uh stand against the the magistrate if the commonwealth could no longer be saved so that was that was very profound for a young man to take on that position and that was in my readings of him was because he understood uh the uh idea of what we what we look at regarding a lesser magistrates which just takes us all the way back to uh magdeburg and what happened there and so he studied that he studied algernon sydney uh so there were a lot of things from all of that political reformation perspective that was commonplace to study at harvard at that time and as well as he did in particular so one of the dynamics that jumping ahead because there's so much in his life that it was well known if you were going to go to sam adams house for dinner uh before you would take and have any political conversations number one prior to dinner he he would ask for grace over the meal and he did that wherever he would eat and then you would have to participate in a bible study before you would participate in political discussion wow so those are those are some of the very interesting characters of the man that you don't see in the in the movies and videos or other books written about him yeah and his contemporaries although they might be considered uh not all of them but perhaps the majority of them god fearing men to one level or another uh it sounds like his faith was genuine and may have stood out uh not that he was of course the only truly uh regenerate person amongst his peers but uh you know we have uh stories about uh our founding fathers coming from a mixture of ideologies i know that you for instance are the chair of constitutional economics at the thomas jefferson center for constitutional studies and thomas jefferson is not really known as a conservative bible believing born -again believer in christ but tell us about that his interactions in regard to his faith with uh his colleagues and peers and contemporaries well it sums up in one of his monikers and that being the last puritan so that was not only because of his manner of preferred dress but it held true and everything that you read uh even in his the eulogies of him were that he was that man of faith and lived it extensively and that that really set me in what does it mean to live of that extensibility of the gospel and that meaning how is it uh does it penetrate every aspect of our lives so when we look at you know he understood the sovereignty of god from that point of view that then it was extensible and how he uh addressed every other aspect of what he was engaged in yeah i heard that monica replied to jonathan edwards as well the last period yes and a friend of mine that i interview uh quite often uh who is a puritan scholar he doesn't like to categorize any american descendants of the puritans as puritans he restricts that to the those that were in england but that's another time another story for another time um how should we guys that came around the boat you know you gotta you gotta look at it that way um so tell us what we should most remember accurately about samuel adams and as you said before uh most people will immediately think of a logger that is very popular but uh tell us about the true sam adams what we should most remember about him what most should be remembered was that he lived his faith he was intent on what it meant to understand liberty and christ first and then how that transcended into uh individual liberty and that for a nation based upon those fundamental principles and uh then also he was a very profound uh educator so not only was he a legislator but he was an educator and he wanted to ensure that children he was one of the first ones that promoted girls to be educated equally as boys uh in the new england area and yeah and he spent after he retired in his 80s as the governor of massachusetts he spent the remainder of his days educating uh in education working with the youth so he found education and it being that we needed to be a moral and religious and virtuous people and that that uh education was religious so we see that even today and his preferred idea was christianity was the religion that education should have whereas today we see it's humanism and everything else instead uh so i guess those would be the real key elements that he lived his beliefs extensively across every area and not only was that including and what he did from as a legislator and a political leader but what that meant also to ensure that the next generation would be educated in such a manner that it would be about citizenship and how they could live that uh with a moral and virtuous life so that then we would have a moral and virtuous people so that then what john adams said the constitution's only good for a moral and virtuous people yeah and unfortunately uh this nation seems to have really uh abandoned the principles that adams uh cherished and it is as if he was a prophet speaking there um but uh if you could uh now begin to articulate some of the differences that you were addressing that have relevance to our discussion on the constitution we were talking before about uh a democracy versus a constitutional republic federalism versus anti -federalism if you could uh go through uh in layman's terms as much as possible how those things are different and uh etc sure well as we know democracy if you take it in its uh first sense of the word is that everybody rules so that means to make any type of decision within a governing environment whether it's your local town uh your school your whatever uh everybody has to show up and participate and you know you can have a very interesting time doing that especially if you try and bring 300 million people all online at the same time to decide on something what would ever get done uh so that's the the simplest component of democracy which ultimately leads to anarchy because who can make the decision and you're always going to find a power broker next thing you know you have a dictator couldn't it also lead to mob rule which is a dangerous concept right and what i think about that that's what i mean by anarchy was that it it degrades to that by virtue of uh the mob and moving through and taking over absolutely whereas a republic uh the we we think of that in some regards to the roman republics and that there was some form of representation uh broken into uh several different uh sets of government we look more as our founders did and framers at the uh english looking at the house of commons and the house of lords looking at that bicameral or two different distinguished houses that then have representatives in it and uh one aspect of what we became uh as independent states when we became states is each state was its own republic that it was literally no different than europe would have been many 13 instead of 13 colonies under the auspices of england we now became 13 independent republics or states that's why the phrase used to be these united states of america not the united states of america correct yes yes and within that each of the states had their own constitutions had their own form of government you know some had a single house pennsylvania at the time i believe historically if you look at uh...

45:48

massachusetts and others had a lower house upper house and so every state was governing itself according to its culture according to its uh ideas its beliefs uh every state had a right to have its own preferred uh denomination if you will and uh that was common across all the all the colonies to states as we became those independent republics the next thing that happens is you federate they federated they came together and started looking at what's that commonality that we need to have so that we're not attacked from the outside or we need to get some things done uh right now during the revolutionary war so while john adams if we if you really look at it was working on the declaration of independence with thomas jefferson and benjamin franklin samuel adams was one of the primary writers of the articles of confederation so we were confederating so these independent states coming together within that federated or a concept of finding what would work between these independent entities so that's kind of federalism federalism if you will is how do we agree to come together and govern as those independent bodies and we don't understand that anymore we think that the the federal government is the only entity and yeah we happen to be in a state well wait a minute the states never gave up their independence to the extent that we think they did in our modern society that protections were actually built in to the constitution especially under the bill of rights with the ninth and tenth amendment but that that goes down to a whole different discussion so that's federalism in a real simple perspective uh...

48:01

when you ask the term of the federalist versus that anti -federalist uh...

48:07

those were then again labels uh... put on groups that uh...

48:14

were taking positions relative to the new forming of a new government for the constitution of eighty seven and uh...

48:23

it it was really backwards because the anti -federalist they really didn't have a good marketing campaign so they they lost out but in true terms and definition they were the ones that believed in federalism whereas those that claim the name federalist in many different ways uh their underpinnings were that of more of a greater larger consolidated national government to which we've kind of been drawn to so it's uh very very interesting so the words and labels were confusing even back then correct oh yeah exactly just like just like today even when somebody calls themselves a classic liberal that would be something entirely different or at least in many cases uh if not most or all cases very different from an average liberal who is more in reality especially if this liberal is somebody in the limelight or a elected political official they are typically leftists which is not the same thing as liberal the leftist meaning a totalitarian yeah i talk about that and not all conservatives are constitutionalist to show especially from the european perspective and that of of uh england and the english great britain point of view the terminology or so is backwards to our thinking and we're backwards to their thinking if you will so uh it becomes a very interesting especially on that international dialogue to come to what what are you what are you trying to say what do you mean by that and then it makes it worse here to your point where the real mix comes in is that when i say the isms that being the socialisms marxisms and all of those other isms get thrown into the mix now what what is even left and what's right what's conservative what's liberal so yeah i'm going to ask you a question from one of our listeners and then i'll have you answer it when we return from our midway break uh we have pastor bruce in center reach long island new york who says is a state supported public school guilty of violating the contemporary legal doctrine of separation of church and state when it teaches naturalistic evolution thus a de facto form of atheism as a fact and we'll have you respond to that when we return from our break this is a an elongated break uh we always have a 12 -minute break in the middle of the program because grace life radio 90 .1

51:11

fm in lake city florida requires a 12 -minute break in the middle of our show because they air their own commercials and public service announcements so please be patient as we take this elongated break take this time not only to write questions down for our guests but also to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them because without our advertisers continued support iron sharpens iron radio would not remain on the air very long so we'll be right back god willing after these messages from our sponsors so please do not go away iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling .com

52:50

that's solidrockremodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home have you been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio we remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you there are four ways you can help first do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on iron sharpens iron radio second whenever possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise and then let them know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio thirdly you can also donate to iron sharpens iron radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

53:43

and click support at the top of the page but most importantly keep iron sharpens iron radio in your prayers we hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

54:45

that's wrbc .us i'm james white of alpha omega ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for the nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nas bible dot com whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the nasb for yourself today go to nasbible .com

55:32

that's nasbible .com iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 for generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word an additional nine thousand come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable christian groups frequently plan conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

56:46

hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

57:56

linbrookbaptist .org one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

58:20

for all your battery needs at batterydepot .com they're changing the status quo they're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man in other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable ordering from batterydepot .com

58:42

ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work at competitive prices whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to batterydepot .com

59:14

next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties call 866 -403 -3768 that's 866 -403 -3768 or go to batterydepot .com

59:32

that's batterydepot .com Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

59:40

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

59:47

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

59:52

Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

59:59

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:00:08

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:00:14

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:00:27

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:00:33

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

01:00:45

TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org,

01:00:51

that's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org, or even on SermonAudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

01:00:58

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. with elegance and style, and is available for small office gatherings, bridal showers, engagement parties, and rehearsal dinners.

01:01:34

Critics and guests alike acknowledge Chef Exclusive's commitment to exceeding even the highest expectations.

01:01:41

I know of their quality firsthand, since Chef Exclusive catered by most recent Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon.

01:01:49

For details, call 717 -388 -3000, that's 717 -388 -3000, or visit

01:01:57

Chefexclusive .com, that's Chefexclusive .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:02:14

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:02:22

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:02:30

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:02:35

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available, because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:02:48

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:03:01

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

01:03:14

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

01:03:22

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And if you mention

01:03:28

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and you purchase a minimum of $30, I'm sorry, $50 worth of merchandise, you will receive a free copy of Prayerful and Powerful Pulpits by E .M.

01:03:40

Bounds, and you'll also get free shipping on your $50 or more purchase.

01:03:47

Remember that you have to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to get that offer. That's the free copy of Prayerful and Powerful Pulpits by E .M.

01:03:55

Bounds and the free shipping on orders of $50 or more. You can also call

01:04:01

CVBBS .com Monday through Friday from 10 a .m. to 4 30 p .m.

01:04:07

Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and make sure that you are calling

01:04:17

Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. They do not have a voicemail on that toll -free number, so if you call and nobody answers, just call back the next day if the next day happens to be a weekday between 10 a .m.

01:04:30

and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. And of course you can order online 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year at CVBBS .com.

01:04:42

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com. Before we return to our guest, we just have some important announcements to make.

01:04:51

I am going to be attending, God willing, the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology this

01:04:58

November from the 9th through the 10th. It's being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, and the speakers include

01:05:08

David Garner, Ray Ortlund, and Richard Phillips, and Timothy Gibson and Carlton Wynn.

01:05:18

If you would like to join me there, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org,

01:05:24

that's the website of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:05:32

The theme this November is the Glory of the Cross, and please mention

01:05:39

Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you register for this conference, and I hope to see you there at the

01:05:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitors Booth at this event on November 9th through the 10th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

01:05:57

Once again, that's AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org. Click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:06:06

And then, coming up in January of 2019, one of my favorite events that I have fallen in love with and look forward to attending with bated breath, and that is the

01:06:19

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. The three G's stand for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, and this is going to be held from January 17th, which is a

01:06:31

Thursday, through Saturday, January 19th, at the Georgia International Convention Center, which is in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

01:06:41

And they always have a phenomenal lineup this year. It includes

01:06:46

Paul Washer, God willing, John Piper, David Platt, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

01:06:54

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, David Miller, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, Stephen Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C.

01:07:06

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more. If you would like to join me at the

01:07:13

G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

01:07:18

and click on G3 2019. And please, if you go, make sure that you look for me at the

01:07:26

Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference, and I want to thank from the bottom of my heart

01:07:31

Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, the orchestrator of the

01:07:38

G3 Conference, for inviting me once again to participate in this awesome event. They're expecting over 4 ,000 people at this event, and you also go to g3conference .com

01:07:49

if you have a ministry or a business that you would like to promote there amongst those 4 ,000 plus people.

01:07:57

They do have vendor booths there available for you to man while you're there, so go to g3conference .com

01:08:07

and look for where it has the exhibitors booth section. And also, please remember to tell the folks at the

01:08:14

G3 Conference that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Last but not least, it's that uncomfortable time of the program where I have to beg you for money.

01:08:24

I hate doing it, but it needs to be done. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in a really urgent situation financially.

01:08:32

We really need your donations more than ever it seems right now.

01:08:38

We are three days behind in our rent, which has only happened once since 2014,

01:08:47

I believe, so it's a really difficult time financially. So if you want our program to remain on the air, you don't want it to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:09:00

click support, then click click to donate now. That way you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card, and you can also mail in checks via snail mail the old -fashioned way to the address that pops up on the screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:09:20

Please, as I try to remember to tell you, don't siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you're a member, and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:09:33

Those two things are commands of God. Promoting my show, or should I say supporting my show, is not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then please donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as much as you can and as often as you can, because we really do need it if you do want us to remain on the air.

01:09:56

If you hate the program, then you shouldn't be listening to it, but if you really love it, you love sharing the mp3s, the free mp3s with family, friends, and loved ones, if you're edified by the program, if you loved hearing the topics and guests that we provide, which are not heard on a lot of radio or television programs,

01:10:19

I mean this is a very rare show in many ways, well please, if you don't want us to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:10:26

click support, then click click to donate now. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:10:32

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, whether it's your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your professional practice, if you're a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, a chiropractor, or whether it's just a special event you're having, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with the theology we express here, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we desperately need your advertising dollars, and you don't have to believe exactly as I do, you just need to be promoting something that is compatible with my theology.

01:11:01

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line.

01:11:08

That's also the email address where you can send in a question for our guest today,

01:11:13

Tom Novolos, if you have a question on the constitution, on Samuel Adams, on American government, on a

01:11:22

Christian's responsibilities as a good steward of the nation where he is blessed to live, then send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:33

chrisarnson at gmail .com. By the way, Tom, am I still remaining fairly close to the pronunciation of your name?

01:11:41

No, you're spot on. Oh great, great, thank you. All right, but well before the break, as you may remember,

01:11:48

Bruce, Pastor Bruce in Center Reach, Long Island, New York, who actually pastors a church in Farmingville, New York, the

01:11:57

Word of Truth Church, he asked a question about the situation with, let's see,

01:12:07

I have it right here, is a state -supported public school guilty of violating the contemporary legal doctrine of separation of church and state when it teaches naturalistic evolution, thus a de facto form of atheism as a fact?

01:12:25

Okay, so we have the next 14 hours of your program. Well, the simple answer is yes.

01:12:37

When we look at, no matter whether it is evolution, whether it is

01:12:45

Islam, Sharia, anything that, and first off, so let me back up, in the modern terminology of that concept that was laid out in the question, the answer is yes, because under the modern interpretation, if you take and you bring any type of religion, which atheism and Darwinianism and all of that is such humanism, as a matter of fact,

01:13:16

Horace Mann and John Dewey were very profound in almost claiming them to be a religion within that loose context of it without being religion, yes.

01:13:29

But in fact, because of the misinterpretation of the

01:13:34

Supreme Court, and those are some of the court cases that I talk about in the book and in the seminar, that we've had these false interpretations of Founders' original intent for not only how we are governed, but education and so on.

01:13:52

So it becomes extremely interesting in that regard. So that's why it could take that extended period of time to get into the conversation on education, but the simple answer, yeah, evolution and all that violates their own principles, and I call their own insanities.

01:14:11

Yes, because there has never been a proof of evolution, and it is being taught as a fact.

01:14:18

In fact, I was taught it as a fact in Catholic parochial school as a child, probably starting somewhere in the fifth or sixth grade of elementary school.

01:14:31

I was taught evolution, believe it or not, in a Catholic school as a fact. And I was even taught that the story of Adam and Eve and most of the stories of the

01:14:39

Old Testament were fairy tales. Now, I'm not, of course, broad -brushing here that there are many Catholics out there that are creationists and believe in intelligent design and all that, and believe in the literal interpretation of the

01:14:53

Old Testament and, in fact, the entirety of the Bible, but this happens to be, I think, a very common situation in the

01:15:01

Catholic Church today and elsewhere, of course. But thank you, Bruce, and give us your full mailing address in Center Reach, Long Island, so you can receive a free copy of the book we are addressing,

01:15:15

From Covenant to the Present Constitution. Compliments of our guest today, Tom Novolos, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:15:26

who will be shipping it to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have

01:15:33

Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, who says, Dear Tom, this question regards the importance of terminology.

01:15:41

I believe you said that you are an anti -federalist because you mean that term in its original sense, in which anti -federalists were those like Samuel Adams, who held to the principles of the

01:15:57

Articles of Confederation. But in modern terms, would a person who holds to such beliefs be called a federalist?

01:16:05

If so, how do you recommend handling the terminology so as not to create misunderstanding?

01:16:13

I hold to the original perspective of the anti -federalists, and I define that from that point of view, and what they questioned relative to the implementation of the

01:16:29

Constitution of 87. And I think it becomes then the opportunity to work through the process as to what was predictive by the anti -federalists of that period that relates to what's going on today.

01:16:47

So it gives an opportunity, from my point of view, in being able to look at and say, you know what,

01:16:56

Melanchthon Smith was talking about this whole thing about ladies.

01:17:02

At some point in time, the federal government is going to get into your boudoir, as well as into your perfume, and regulate that.

01:17:12

Gentlemen, the federal government has a capacity, based on this Constitution, to get into your wine cellar and regulate that.

01:17:23

It becomes very interesting. So I hold to that, as well as then I sum up my personal differences between the federalists and the anti -federalists, from a perspective that Madison in particular expected the churches to do their job and continue to produce a moral and virtuous people.

01:17:45

Whereas the anti -federalists and Sam Adams and the others, so hold on a minute, man is sinful.

01:17:54

We have real problems here, just based on where man is in their fall from God.

01:18:02

We really need to have a better understanding on how that's going to work and how government then could be corrupted.

01:18:12

So I hold to the terminology, but I use qualifiers as part of a process of having an opportunity to educate and bring that historical reference to our present time.

01:18:29

Well, thank you, Joey, in Clifton, New Jersey. Please give us your full mailing address there so that cvbbs .com

01:18:36

can ship you out a free copy of our guest's book, From Covenant to Present Constitution.

01:18:43

Thank you for providing such an excellent question. We have Charlie in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who has two questions.

01:18:55

The first is, why did the founders set up a three -branch system when

01:19:01

Britain had only two, prime minister instead of elected president? That's the first question.

01:19:07

Okay. The three branches were looking at how to better balance the prime minister and the idea of what happens within a parliament, especially having this difference between a house of lords and a house of commons, where the lords are definitely being established out of those preferred class of people.

01:19:31

That was a real concern from a state's perspective, in that the senate construction, as you look at that, the construct of the senate was highly argued, and ultimately what it came down to is the states wanted representation in what was going to go on.

01:19:51

Remember, as I mentioned earlier, these were independent republics, and under the Articles of Confederation, that's what they were.

01:19:57

They were confederated republics. So that was an interesting component of the senate.

01:20:03

It would have some longevity to it. It would have some history. It would have some of those aspects to it that would be meaningful, especially from the states being able to participate in what was going on at that federal level.

01:20:19

And then, as we know, with the house of representatives, that was the house of the people.

01:20:24

So if we use an idea of what

01:20:29

Madison and those framers of the Constitution were talking about, that's where all the emotion happens.

01:20:37

That's where people closest to home get that opportunity to, or should have that opportunity to participate.

01:20:44

But that gets into a larger discussion of, are we really represented in the house appropriately based on numerics and all of that and census?

01:20:55

But the point being is that was a place where we would see all the stuff happening, and then the senate would give that other piece of stability, and they had to come to some agreements there.

01:21:06

And what they saw of a real high value, and it was argued, I mean, this was argued really hard as to do we have in the administration of the federal government, do we have three administrators?

01:21:21

Do we have one? Do we have two? What should we do? And ultimately, it came down to the decision of having the one as an administrator, because I think personally, they really trusted

01:21:37

Washington, and they figured he'd be the first president anyway. But overall, the idea of that third branch of government from administration gave that separation.

01:21:51

And then the judiciary being that third branch, where the judiciary was an independent branch that would look over the actual language of the

01:22:02

Constitution and determine whether a law from Congress would hold to those values and principles.

01:22:11

But we see today that the judiciary has now become nothing more than another legislative branch.

01:22:18

So in effect, we don't have what was intended. So that's kind of a summary of the three branches.

01:22:27

And the presidency was one that, you know, you needed an administrator, it would be better to have one that came through a process.

01:22:36

And as you recall, or, you know, go look into is that in fact, we have the

01:22:43

Electoral College is part of that process on how we bring that administrator to bear.

01:22:49

So it's not the popular vote, nor should it ever be the popular vote that we bring our administrator to bear.

01:22:58

Yeah, that was actually Charlie's second question, why Electoral College instead of popular vote.

01:23:04

And some people who are conservatives and Christians who think that it should be an election by popular vote, they don't even realize how much to the advantage that the liberals have with that.

01:23:18

Oh, true. The idea of the Electoral College, when you take the time to really look at it is that a process where you during the debates was how do you get that balance of truly of majority minority.

01:23:39

And so the only way that they saw in bringing into the administrative aspect of government on how that representation could happen, would be by utilizing the

01:23:52

Electoral College to choose the administrator. And early days, people because we don't go back and we look at that is that in the early days, they didn't go out and campaign.

01:24:07

You know, that that never happened. A lot of George Washington never campaigned.

01:24:12

Thomas Jefferson, when it was time to run against John Adams, there was no campaigning that they went out and did.

01:24:22

It was those that supported them on the principles upon which they believed that went out and tried to iterate the positions that these potential administrators would hold to execute from a strict constitutional perspective.

01:24:44

But we can get into many hours of discussion of and touch on that in the book, in the seminar, is how that went awry almost immediately.

01:24:58

And well, thank you, Charlie. You have won a free copy of the book as well,

01:25:05

From Covenant to the Present Constitution. Since you are in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, then we will have you just go by cvbbs .com,

01:25:16

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service on North Hanover Street in Carlisle and pick up the book to spare them the expense of shipping that out to you.

01:25:25

So just when you when you get there, just ask for the book, From Covenant to the

01:25:32

Present Constitution workbook by Tom Nuvolos and say that you want it on Iron Trap and Zion Radio, and it will be waiting there for you.

01:25:42

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, Was it true that the

01:25:49

Bible was a public education textbook in the early 13 colonies?

01:25:56

Yes. The Bible was one of the primary uses for education because it not only taught morality, but what it did is from its historical perspective, and when you started having to look outside of it to understand what was happening in ancient history, it became a very interesting textbook.

01:26:21

The other one that was very interesting was

01:26:26

Blackstone's commentary on the English, if you call it a constitution.

01:26:33

The English didn't really have a constitution, just a loose concept of law that became what they hold as constitutionalism.

01:26:43

Actively. But it was very, very interesting that that was a complaint in Parliament during some of the arguments and debates, and General Gage actually brought the letter back talking about the

01:26:57

Americans being smatterers in the law, that almost every person not only had a copy of the

01:27:06

Bible, but they also had a copy of Blackstone. And in America, there were more copies of that than there were in England because Americans started printing it themselves.

01:27:20

So when we look at the literacy rate of our early colonial days, it was close to, if not exceeding, 90%.

01:27:29

So the majority of people could read, and with that, they wanted to understand what it meant to govern.

01:27:37

So they wanted to understand also their heritage in governance, that being their

01:27:44

English heritage. So the way they did that was both looking at the moral aspect of it, which the

01:27:51

Bible establishes from self -governance, to then what are the interpretations by which the king, parliament, and law should be interpreted for the colonies.

01:28:03

They wanted to know that from themselves, and they could argue it. The king's men and the governors had a very, very difficult time because the people themselves had a capacity to talk intelligently about what it meant to be governed.

01:28:22

Well, thank you so much, Tyler, in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Make sure we have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

01:28:29

can mail you out a copy of From Covenant to the Present Constitution workbook by our guest

01:28:35

Tom Novolis, and thank you for contributing an excellent question to the program. I'm going to read you another question from a listener before we go to our final break, and you could answer it when we return from the final break, and this is from RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ says,

01:28:55

Do not many conservatives and even Christians make the enormous mistake of wanting our government to have too much power over things that suit them and their ideology, not realizing that when the government changes hands and those from the other side of the aisle in the future take control, it will come back to bite us in the back, and we'll have you answer that when we return from our final break, and this is a much briefer break than the last one.

01:29:30

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, do so now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:29:36

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

01:29:44

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider. As a membership organization, we help

01:29:50

Christians be wise with money and live generously every day, and for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the

01:29:59

Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in business ethics.

01:30:08

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant at 717 -254 -6433.

01:30:15

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

01:30:20

Thriving Difference. We know we were made for so much more than ordinary life.

01:30:29

Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thrivent story. We were made to thrive.

01:30:48

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

01:30:55

Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

01:31:08

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

01:31:25

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

01:31:36

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981, 717 -697 -1981, or visit solidrockremodeling .com.

01:31:49

That's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

01:32:00

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

01:32:05

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

01:32:16

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

01:32:21

Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

01:32:28

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

01:32:38

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

01:32:46

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:32:54

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:33:00

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:33:13

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:33:18

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

01:33:26

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:33:35

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please don't forget

01:33:41

Solid -Ground -Books .com for Father's Day and for many gift -giving ideas in the near future.

01:33:51

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com. Without the support financially of Solid Ground Christian Books, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio would not be able to exist, and we thank

01:34:03

Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, for his faithful support. We are now in our last 25 minutes or so of the program with our guest

01:34:13

Tom Novolis, and we are discussing his workbook. It's quite a substantial workbook.

01:34:19

It is quite large and filled with vital information from Covenant to the present Constitution workbook.

01:34:26

If you'd like to join us on the air, speak now or forever hold your peace because we're running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:34:33

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Before the break, we had RJ in White Plains basically saying that there are conservatives who wrongly think when they have been very pleased with the results of an election that they want the government here in the

01:34:51

United States to have a lot of power, especially when it comes to enforcing things involved in morality and perhaps other things, and then when four or eight years later when a liberal might ascend into the

01:35:06

White House and other places of government, they are shocked when the government has all this power and yet now it is invading into their own personal lives.

01:35:18

So what could you say about what our listener in White Plains, New York had to say? I think

01:35:24

RJ is spot on in what he's presenting and it's because we in the church have not educated our folks sitting in the seats in understanding the fundamentals of governance and what we talked about earlier of the ideas of federalism.

01:35:46

The intent which we allowed and again starting back in the 1800s if you will when everybody started jumping on the social gospel bandwagon that we wanted the federal government to start solving some pretty horrific issues.

01:36:05

Whether it was labor issues, whether it was the continuance of slavery, whatever it may be, but yet forgetting that those are things that we as individuals responsible and self -governing people being active in our local environments and within our states were to work towards solving and especially within the bodies of believers.

01:36:37

To the extent that what I mean by that is that if we look back that the intent was under the

01:36:43

Articles of Confederation and then in the great arguments of the 87

01:36:48

Convention which then the anti -federalists pressed for numerous amendments.

01:36:55

As you well know there were over 100 amendments that were rendered down to the 10 that went into the

01:37:00

Bill of Rights. The idea of the states retaining their sovereign entity was the whole concept of the 10th

01:37:09

Amendment and then a blended point of view of that was related within the 9th

01:37:14

Amendment for the people as well to retain our sovereign rights. So when people start looking to the federal government or the national, let's take federal out of it, let's call it a national government, now what we're doing is no different than what happened in the

01:37:35

Old Testament in taking and asking for a king and having this king to lord over us.

01:37:43

What did basically God say to Samuel when

01:37:48

Israel started asking for a king? Well he's going to do this, he's going to take this, he's going to oversee all of this and go run the list.

01:37:58

And so what we see is that when the states or when the people, any people group, create their lobbying ideas that thinking that the national government is to solve it, they have no concept of federalism and looking back and saying you know what,

01:38:17

Sam Adams always said that the best government is local.

01:38:23

So what are we doing? The question earlier is well what's happened to our educational system?

01:38:30

We lost local control. There was never an intention for a national educational seat within the concept of a national government.

01:38:44

Never. It was always supposed to be local to the community and within the context of the state at best, at most.

01:38:53

So yes, RJ, long answer, but you have it right and guess what?

01:39:01

I look at other Christian groups and say your problem baby if that's the road you're running down because you're asking for answers in the wrong place.

01:39:11

We need to be looking back to understanding what it means for our state and community sovereignty and how do we interact and bring those solutions local again and get the national government out of those areas they shouldn't be in.

01:39:35

Well thank you RJ. You have won a free copy of From Covenant to the Present Constitution workbook by our guests.

01:39:42

Please make sure that we have your full mailing address so cvbbs .com can ship that out to you in White Plains, New York.

01:39:49

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who says I would hope that all true regenerate

01:39:57

Christians would agree that abortion is one of the greatest evils that has plagued humanity.

01:40:04

It is pure and simple infanticide. It is a holocaust of the unborn.

01:40:11

But having said that, I know that sincerely pro -life Christians do disagree on whether or not this should be a state's rights issue or a federal government issue because of the way that they believe this will be more believably wiped off the map.

01:40:31

What is your guest's opinion on this? Well being a strict constitutionalist from that perspective it is a state's rights issue.

01:40:41

And those are some of the things again because we have not explained and taught even within the context of our fellowships.

01:40:52

What does it mean from the perspective of how do we govern? How was our nation set up?

01:40:58

How were our states set up? And where is the distinguishing factor? And when you appeal once again to the national government to be the solver of all the problems, my goodness what are you asking for?

01:41:16

You're asking for a solve. So what I always say especially in this because I'm very involved in that issue in particular in our county.

01:41:27

And even from that local perspective I can tell you that even in our local county there is almost a zero representation of the various churches that have any value or value life and disagree with abortion.

01:41:48

So that's interesting in itself. But then to develop a political environment to say oh gosh we're going to go do something about it at some national level or you know get somebody else to to take that on.

01:42:05

Wait a minute what's our personal responsibility once again locally in our neighborhood? How many people you know will are willing to go and stand outside and just pray outside an abortion clinic?

01:42:19

Planned Parenthood. That's a personal effort that you start right there.

01:42:26

And then what else can happen within the context of the community? So I took your answer longer but the point is is that if we look at how our government and our constitution by strict definition and meaning is supposed to operate abortion is a state's rights issue.

01:42:50

And that's where we should be able to determine it. In fact I remember

01:42:55

I was personally surprised because I initially years ago had a negative knee -jerk reaction to the idea of abortion being a state's rights issue because I think

01:43:08

I thought that it lessened the severity of the crime being committed. But I found out that murder is a state is a crime against the state.

01:43:20

Only there are certain circumstances that makes murder not a state crime but a federal crime.

01:43:30

But murder is for the most part a crime against the state and I was unaware of that. Yeah and that's case in point.

01:43:38

So when you you know when you render it all through the understanding and the logic that goes with it the national government is supposed to be extremely limited and it's defined well within what its limitations should be.

01:43:56

Once again we go through and we look at the arguments early on where some of that started to become perverted by Hamilton right off the bat with this idea of a national bank.

01:44:06

It then became extensible and the courts started jumping in there and figuring out they could take and actually manipulate social agendas and or political causes through the courts.

01:44:22

Because there we have accountability through elections of all the other branches whereas in the courts unless you impeach a justice or a judge there is no accountability directly to the people.

01:44:37

And that's what Jefferson was so good at pointing out. If there's going to be tyranny in this land it'll start in the courts.

01:44:46

Well thank you C .J. and Lyndon Hearst Long Island. I believe you're getting the last copy that we have from Covenant to the present constitution workbook.

01:44:56

So make sure that we have your full mailing address so cvbbs .com can ship it out to you at no charge to you or to Orangetrap and Zion Radio.

01:45:05

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County Pennsylvania who says

01:45:11

I find a lot of things very attractive and appealing about libertarianism.

01:45:17

I am a devout Christian and I am leaning towards the libertarian ideology but one thing stands out as being a great concern to me that I've found amongst libertarians.

01:45:33

I know that they are not monolithic and that they have a variety of thought amongst them but it seems odd to me that libertarians by and large believe that borders protecting the

01:45:47

United States should be very loose and open which surprises me because of the fact that I thought that the idea of libertarianism was the freedoms that citizens of the

01:46:01

United States have not foreigners outside of our jurisdiction. Well I always chuckle about that because actually at one point in time

01:46:13

I had this conversation when we were living in Idaho with the men's group with Doug Wilson and the guys up there at Christchurch.

01:46:23

There was always a breakfast meeting that I would attend when we were up in that neck of the woods and this whole idea of what's

01:46:32

Christian libertarianism you know the Rand Paul, the Ron Paul movement and all of that.

01:46:41

I take the position of libertarianism is that no matter what flavor it is it ends up being godless and secondly it ends up taking and as many of them that jump up and down on the constitution they do one of the things that I talk about in the book in the seminar they raise this thing up and they wave it like a flag but they don't understand what the words really say in developing the whole concept of what a sovereign nation is from the concept of what were sovereign states coming together in a union.

01:47:23

So from the border issue alone relative to the libertarians again you're going to get the same smattering there as you will with conservatives because you can see what's happening in many of the discussions under the so -called conservative slash republican bent.

01:47:43

I think my answer is that I can't be a libertarian because of all of the social issues that they ascribe to that it just does not fit with my values and my beliefs nor my understanding of the constitution more so we have this great conversation because I'm still involved in the we the people tea party movement and even locally here and so in the state of Ohio we just had a large

01:48:23

Ohio convention if you will where liberty -minded people came from all over the state met and that's the real heart of the conversation how do we address the political parties in a manner especially because the one that's the closest to us is the republican party how do we address that in a manner that our values and principles will be able to be heard is it what what do you do so there was a lot that we don't have time to get into but the the real nut of that one is understand what our state and federal constitution state

01:49:11

New York's constitution Massachusetts whatever state you're in people forget you have a state constitution read it understand it because that's your guideline for governance even more so than what happens at the national national is something else but what's going on in your states

01:49:34

Ohio counties are governed by the state so what that means is county commissioners have to do what is in the constitution and what's in the revised code whereas in Washington state where we live for a number of years the county commissioners the counties are by charter so by charter they have a freer form of governance by which then your county commissioners have a greater latitude on how they function and what how they represent the people and what determinations they have over how your money spent how you're taxed all of those all those variables so that's when when when

01:50:17

I suggest to people is that everybody looks to Saul everybody's looking to the federal government if you will that national government and forgetting yeah

01:50:30

I geez I elected a state legislator what was that about I elected a county commissioner what was that about so we need to start looking locally because in many ways they're doing a lot more damage than what's happening at the federal level you know it's interesting that you have this harsh opinion of libertarianism and as our listener rightly said they're not monolithic

01:50:59

I I have met some libertarians who sound like they are saying nearly identically what you're saying and they're very pro -life some of them of course it's a it's a large spectrum you have you have you have deplorable people who are libertarians who uh want the government out of anything that we do

01:51:18

I I even met a libertarian once that although he said he was personally opposed to child pornography he didn't believe there should be laws against it

01:51:29

I told him he was insane but uh but uh there are like my late friend who is now in glory with Christ for eternity

01:51:38

William Norman Grigg he was a libertarian and I had a lot of commonality with him in regard to sure two things and he seems to be echoing a lot of what you or he echoed

01:51:48

I should say a lot of what you're saying how do you how do you respond to what what I just said I would say that those it you can take the term libertarian and I would classify them

01:51:59

I guess in my mind a classical independent because the the value proposition that they they bring hold to those larger values and in essence they're they're constitutionalists so that's why

01:52:16

I think if we're looking at that labeling as we started the conversation with uh today is that labels have that whole shift in meaning but at the same time uh when

01:52:29

I look and I've met agreeably you know a number of Christians that uh hold to that term libertarian but at the same time when you look at it oh oh god they're constitutionalists yeah

01:52:42

William Norman Grigg the the brother that I just mentioned he he called himself both he called himself a

01:52:48

Christian libertarian and a Christian constitutionalist okay yeah so I think that's uh that that's the way that you know who are you talking to at the time that you know you said you know you talk about that label

01:53:03

I've worked with the libertarian groups you know Young Americans for Liberty uh y 'all is uh basically was a

01:53:10

Ron Paul uh organization that was founded and you see the same thing there's a a whole of spectrum of folks within the context of what goes on with y 'all and uh so yeah

01:53:25

I can be harsh about it because I think I would I think people need to think it through before they start putting that label on right but one of my former pastors who was against libertarianism he said that libertarianism would only work in a perfect world would would you would you agree with that sentiment no again it's the definition what what's the definition of libertarianism because it could it could easily uh digress again into libertine no different than what occurred you know with the

01:54:03

French Revolution which we spoke to already that becomes absolute anarchy so I think that when when

01:54:12

I look at and I look for someone who is going to classify or label themselves within that environment where are they in their uh world view and I think that's what it all comes down to for us even from that whole perspective because our framers and our founders

01:54:33

George Washington and his farewell address said stay away from party definitions stay away from all of that and yet we see that all of a sudden we want to put on these different labels but what is it comes down to what is our fundamental world view and how does is that then exercised and extensible throughout every aspect of our lives and I'll just revert back to the

01:55:03

Samuel Adams analogy if you will is that you know okay you start with this world this biblical worldview and now how do you live it uh in your family and in uh then in the rest of how you interact with society well thank you

01:55:22

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County I am sorry as I said we don't have a free book for you but if you are interested in getting your own copy you can go to samueladamsreturns .net

01:55:34

samueladamsreturns .net if you could I'd like you now Tom to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners you have about three minutes to do so regard in regard to from covenant to the present constitution sure uh so our founders early founders uh as they came over understood uh covenant covenant theology uh we don't talk about that very much uh anymore uh a lot of churches don't even talk about it let alone uh what does that mean in relationship to society and how that develops in uh how we look at governance one of the aspects that uh brought the revolution to bear was the idea that the charters that the colonies had were with the king the charters were actually covenantal in design in the manner in which they were written and so when you read the declaration of independence the charges that are brought up in the declaration of independence are not against parliament they're against the king because the relationship was with the king so that's where I start and then

01:56:50

I take us through that process of well okay how did the the constitution come about uh there's other folks that do a lot more extensive work

01:56:59

Hillsdale does a lot more extensive classes on that but I take you through it with some uh perspective on assumptions and then we have to look at how did we get to where we are how is it that we have this constitution

01:57:13

I call it the tale of two constitutions the constitution as it was intended and then what has happened uh to the of functionality and the operation implementation of the constitution uh in our modern day and so I take you

01:57:32

I take people through that whole idea of what are those all those variables all those different uh aspects anything

01:57:42

I like throwing out there because it catches attention what what effect does the United Nations have uh on how we operate as our nation in America today

01:57:53

I call it uh United Nations the Hotel California you can get in but you can't get out

01:58:03

I take you know folks through all of that I asked a question which you know maybe somebody will go take a look at it what effect has uh been brought upon us by international executive agreements not executive orders but international executive agreements oh my goodness that a lot there's a lot there so when we look at these types of things that have effect as treaty that never have to go through the senate now all of a sudden a president can go do something or something like an

01:58:47

Iran nuclear deal and it has potentials of statutory requirements upon the

01:58:55

U .S. there's other things and I bring out a lot of examples about that and then at the end it's the idea of what do we do about this stuff you know what what are the preferred ways of how do we deal with the supreme court how do we deal with the the 17th amendment what does that mean or people looking at taxation oh my goodness there's so many different things that have had these various effects what do we do as citizens and we bring some ideas to bear within the conclusions of that with some processes and say okay well these are some opportunities at the national level but what do we have to do at home and we're out of time brother

01:59:39

I'm sorry uh right that's three minutes there you go and the website is samueladamsreturns .net