Steve Ray Exposed, William Albrecht Reviewed

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And more welcome to the dividing line lots and lots and lots of stuff to do today.

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So I'm gonna jump right into it I have a bunch of material to cover in regards to a blog article posted by Steve Ray today

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It is the clearest documentation of the fact that Steve Ray is a liar that I've ever seen in my life

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And that is the exact term. It is documented. It is clear and I can guarantee you right now He'll never admit it.

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But before we get to that A debate took place last week actually three debates took place last week up in Toronto and They involved

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Dave Hunt Debating as I recall a Hindu an atheist and then shabbir Ali now

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I would never do something like that in in the space of about 28 hours Dave I believe is in his late 70s early 80s something like that.

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He recently had hip replacement surgery I think this is a clear indication that somebody needs to be able to tell him that's not wise don't do that But evidently there isn't anyone who can say no

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To Dave Hunt and as a result the cause of Christ suffers and that's that's a shame and Someone who was at the debate has called in right at the beginning of the program

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Neil up in Toronto. Hi Neil Doing pretty good, so I understand brother

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Dave wasn't looking real real sprightly and spry Unfortunately, he certainly wasn't

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Have to cut him a bit of slack because of his age 28 hours the hip replacement.

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There's other hip was obviously bothering me. It was painful every time he stood up Yep, and then they had him also preaching apparently on Sunday morning as well.

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Oh my goodness I'm sorry. Somebody has to be responsible that that's just foolishness.

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I'm I'm 45 years of age, and I would not put myself through that and To do that I Cannot even begin to understand.

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But anyway, tell us a little bit about about the context I've been being told that this was a really weird context for a

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Muslim Christian debate Yeah, the original title apparently was supposed to be Christianity versus Islam Then I understand should barely had a change to the

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Quran versus the Bible which he would have loved to do But when Dave got to speak he was first he did not realize that the topic had been changed

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Which was quite ironic because I get their email. Yep, and on it.

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It was showing pray for Dave then Topic Saturday night was the

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Quran versus the Bible. Yep. I got the same email. Yeah, okay Well when he started in he just did a total thrashing and vitriolic attack on Islam some documentation and I was there with Steve Bartomeu as we went together, right and We just sort of looked at each other

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I made Comment to myself a note, you know somewhere through it because especially when

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Shabir was Rebutting that I want to yell Allah Akbar. He was doing such a great job

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But it was like Dave was almost The ramblings of a deranged man at times.

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No, he just didn't really know what he was talking about And and sadly Shabir is very very good at You know,

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I would just describe it as judo debating in judo you you use the the force of the other person

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As your main way of doing things, he's very very good at turning anything. Someone says in in that way

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So yeah, I expected that part Yeah, he what he just opened the door for Shabir to go into the

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Old Testament all the violent passages there Yep, and he made a very interesting comment that Samson probably was the first suicide killer.

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Yeah, I heard about that Yeah, he killed more than 9 -11. Oh Very Yeah, yeah kidding

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Now Neil what I meant by context originally though was this was in a Catholic high school

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It was in a Roman Catholic high school, right? Which is kind of mind -boggling considering Dave Hunt's attitude towards Catholicism and also for a

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Roman Muslim to see possibly statues and everything no kidding But now I also

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Steve told me that the the person who put this on is a former

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Evangelical who became a Roman Catholic. No, the moderator was the moderator was yeah,

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Michael Korn He did an excellent job in the moderation. I was talking to him before it and I Said, you know,

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I'm not a Catholic Offended by some of the books that got there like by Texmar Dave cloud

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Jack chick tracks and he says He just shrugged his shoulders and said it probably won't have them back again

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Well, no, no, let me know. So who who was behind all this? It's a young man called

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Paul McGregor Zealous for the Lord. He may be a modern -day Paulist and needs a

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Priscilla and acrylic I am well But I'm just confused because I know that the book table could not possibly have been days because Dave wasn't it

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But I think it's the group that does the Jack chick Materials here.

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They offered both Steve and I Jack chick track and Steve was a little more gracious and returning it down I just told him

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I'm not a Jack chick fan and he said well people come into my phone me and say hey I got saved and I prevented myself from asking got saved from what to what but Okay, they go it was

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The God the Lord was merciful. There were very few Muslims there but we had some interaction though with a couple of Muslims after the debate was over and I also gave

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Shabir a copy of Piper's book seeing and savoring Jesus Christ You know told him, you know, hey, you know, we congratulated him told him

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We were embarrassed by what Dave hunted. Mm -hmm And I said just told me we're praying that you'll come to know the real truth and that you'd make a great preacher

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Well, you know, I guess I've started a trend I've given Shabir a

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Book books as a gift in each one of our debates. So I guess his library is probably doing quite well

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Well, yeah, I expected he would And Dave hunt admitted that he just maybe saw one or two of Shabir's debates

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So what was what was the final closing statements what was what was Shabir saying and what was

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Dave saying Well, it's hard to say from my perspective Dave wasn't too bad in his last five minutes because he did get into the gospel a bit then but he missed so many opportunities when

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Shabir brought up in his 15 minutes section about there being no real witnesses for the crucifixion

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Well, I mean you just jumped into first Corinthians 15 3 through 6 and then bring in To see this and Josephus could have preached the gospel for his five minutes on that and never jumped into it at all

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No, I get the feeling that well most people and I would include myself when

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I first got into Muslim ministry You see the similarities to the two religions and as you study them both more the divide just keeps getting wider and wider all the time

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He is like one of these who? Attacks it the trollically and somehow does not seem to be able to separate the follower of whether it's

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Islam Catholicism or whatever from The belief system, right? And you know that makes a significant difference

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Hey, my Muslim contacts know what I believe but they also consider me friends and that get along well with them

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And Steve's the same way because we go out together so right well Neil I really appreciate what you and Steve did

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I appreciate you being there. I know it could not have been easy to sit through but Now we're there were there cameras recording this.

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Yes. They are you think you can order it all from the Breeham call website? That's what they said

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I've been trying I've been having trouble getting onto hotmail because that's the one I where I get my Brea and call stuff on I haven't so far haven't been able to get on I'm having problems with it today and To see whether they're putting up any comments about the debates or not.

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I have I get the same Updates are being called. I've not seen anything. So yeah you know

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God reigns and we had a good chance to talk to the Two Muslim fellows both from the would be area which is about 40 minutes from Toronto where the debate was held one was from Pakistan He was very very angry, and he said

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Because I grew up in India You know he taught to respect your elders, and he said it's all

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I could do to Control myself from shouting at him. You know I don't blame him.

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I would have felt the same way. Yeah, well, that's Well, thank you very much

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Well gonna appreciate the report Back to listening to the rest of the program

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Thank you very much winners from the Catholic side. Thank you All right well

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Steve you can you can put sort of hold off if you'd like because I've got a bunch I need to cover here, but I did want to give everybody a report.

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I do not rejoice in in what took place I I Was very clear when it first came out.

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I felt that this was just utter foolishness. I called for Dave not to do it The fact that he was is is very elderly and physically infirm

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I hope that when I get that age there will be somebody around who has enough wisdom to be able to say to me

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You're trying to do too much You need to slow down you need to heal up you need to do one debate at a time you need to have enough time for preparation something and honestly

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This is part of Dave brought this on himself Because Dave Hunt's attitude is there's no one who can really teach me anything

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This this was clearly just go look at the videos on YouTube on what love is this?

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Because he mentions the fact that I had all these people I had friends tell me I shouldn't write this book because I don't know what

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I'm talking about exactly and what Dave Hunt thinks is is if people tell him he shouldn't be doing something that's a sure sign from God that he should be and That's not wise and the results.

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Well are what we see here, so there there you go There's a report on that.

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I want to switch gears however because I Got to my email this morning

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James Swan had sent me an email linking me to Steve Ray's blog. I would have seen it Once I started my

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RSS scanning, but sometimes a couple days ago by and I'm just too busy I was teaching yesterday, and so I was focused on other things and I ran across thanks to Steve Ray thanks to Jim's one

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Steve Ray's blog and I read through the the attack that he launched against yours truly and I You know it's it ends with Steve Ray saying

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I always Felt sorry for this man myself and often said he makes people who gets too close feel like they need a shower that's that that's the kind of personal vitriolic ad hominem that is the essence of Steve Ray the guy in the

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Safari hat I don't need to engage that kind of ad hominem these guys give me more than enough information to demonstrate that they are dishonest in and of themselves and what this blog article is about Is about my series on Ignatius and It's amazing to me that the title to the blog article

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Is was the anti -catholic correct? I of course being the anti -catholic on YouTube was st.

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Ignatius a reformed Baptist Now there seems to be a consistent methodology amongst the

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Roman Catholic apologists the United States today Patrick Madrid Catholic answers

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Steve Ray To purposefully and knowingly

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With dishonorable intentions lie about me and about what I believe Assuming that their people will not actually check out what

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I have to say Going back to the envoy article many moons ago where I was lied about there in regards to my

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CR article on the Council of Nicaea And the mocking idea that the early church fathers were

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Baptists something I never said there was a footnote from a student of mine that said that Athanasius demonstrated a completely non

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Roman Catholic perspective when he went against the Established church and did so for decades on end and stood firm for the truth

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That's not something that is a mark of Roman Catholicism of course And of course they then twisted that around it there seems to be a purposeful attempt to lie to Their followers to keep them from listening to anything

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I have to say to poison their minds that to me is a sign that these men know That they cannot defend their position in a truthful manner, and so they have to use these kinds of tactics

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The statement was st. Ignatius reformed Baptist is a lie, and it's a lie. I'll show you how much it's a lie

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Let me play to you the very beginning of my videos on Ignatius and it also is going to help because I'm going to play

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William Albrecht's comments a little bit later in the program and he makes reference this to listen to what

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I actually said and then listen to how Steve Ray lies about it, and how William Albrecht doesn't get it either.

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Here's what I had to say In this series of videos. I would like to provide you with a contrast between the kind of Handling of the early church fathers that is rampant amongst

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Roman Catholic apologists and what I hope to be the appropriate Handling of these same materials as I have presented in the past on the dividing line webcast specifically

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I want to look at the writings of Ignatius Specifically his epistle to the Smyrnians and the text that is so frequently used by Roman Catholic Apologists to try to promote the idea that Ignatius himself believed in the concept of transubstantiation and things like that I will contrast the comments of Steve Ray made on Catholic answers with a presentation

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I made a number of years ago on the dividing line webcast It was during a period of time when I was teaching for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary I was teaching a class of special studies class on Patristics and so we're going to go through The text

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I'm going to put the text on the screen for you So you can take a look at it and also on my blog.

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I'm linking to the CCEL URL where you can look at both the English and Greek there as well

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But I want to provide this opportunity of contrast because you see Roman Catholics I really don't believe can handle the early church fathers in a

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Accurate fashion without letting dogma get in the way what they keep dogma out They're gonna end up contradicting their own dogma if they allow dogma come in they're gonna end up misrepresenting the early church fathers only really

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Protestants can handle the early church fathers in an appropriate way because we don't have to turn them into something other than what they were

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They were the early church fathers They did not look like me. They certainly didn't look like what Roman Catholics look like today, even though you'll hear

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Ray make that claim That he had to become a Roman Catholic because they were clearly Catholic and yet none of these apostolic fathers believe what

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Ray believes about Mary What Ray believes about? Transcantation where he believes about the papacy

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His standards are completely upside down and incoherent, which is why these folks struggle so much to debate these issues but especially the

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Examination of the actual text of Ignatius It's gonna take me a couple of videos to get it all in because it took me a while to cover it

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But I hope you'll find this to be useful But we need to first start. Okay. So what did I say?

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What what have I said on this program? What have I said in print in books in debates for literally now decades?

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Have I ever said that everyone in the early church believed everything? I believe the way I believe it the answer of course is no anyone who says otherwise is a liar

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That's that's a term. That's a word that speaks of people who are dishonest and who purposefully

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Promote dishonesty. That's what a liar is. That's someone who knows they're lying and they lie. Anyways, that's a liar

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I have never said that the early church father all the other church fathers reformed

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Baptists I've never said that they were Baptists. I said the early church fathers were who they were they contradicted each other

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They had different emphases. They had all sorts of different understandings and different viewpoints But what

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I've also said is they were not Roman Catholics Now the bishops of Rome might fit into that category

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But even then the bishops of Rome did not believe many of the things that modern Roman Catholics do today

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They were who they were I can allow them to be who they were because I do not

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Dogmatically make any assertions about what they allegedly believed That's why I say

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I can handle them in a fair way But Roman Catholics because their dogmas say this is the universal consensus of the church all the fathers taught this blah blah blah

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They cannot handle the early church fathers in a fair manner that allows them to be who they were

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One of us can handle them fairly one of us cannot that is what I was trying to say now if Steve Ray Actually watched my videos then he had to have heard me say that and that would make

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Steve Ray Or if he didn't watch the videos then he's guilty of linking to William Albrecht's videos

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Yet William Albrecht actually repeated the part where I said that so that would make

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Steve Ray Either way you go the only way he's gonna get around this

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I can tell you right now because I've figured out how this man operates He's running around Israel right now

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Guiding a bunch of little old ladies through various Holy Land sites. That's how he makes his money and He they just you know hang on his every word and and he he just you know wears his

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Safari hat and and and they follow him around and so he doesn't have time really do anything about this, but when he gets back

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I Doubt he's gonna listen even what I have to say here of course or even he might just glance through the blog article

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But what he's gonna say is well of course I didn't listen to that anti -catholic has to say I'm not gonna waste my time with stuff like that and So what does that prove us to us about Steve Ray well

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How many times is he on Catholic answers how regularly is he on Catholic answers I mean those of you who are honest

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Catholics who recognize that Ignatius does not use this terminology because that's a Theology it had not yet developed.

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Why aren't you folks? Calling into Catholic answers and saying you people are an embarrassment

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Why aren't you doing that why is that left up to us this doesn't this demonstrate that as long as it serves mother church

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It's okay. You don't have any standards. I Mean I just got done. We just had a call on on Dave Hunt how many times have

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I criticized Dave Hunt? Dave Hunt and I would believe a lot of the same things about the

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Roman Catholic Church But I have a standard that means that I need to criticize him when he misrepresents

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Rome Just the same way when he misrepresents me. Why don't you have those standards? I don't understand that well yes

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I do understand that but it demonstrates something about the Roman Catholic system doesn't it it most assuredly does so By the way before we look at he he he links to William Albrecht of the

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Catholic legate and he links to both of his responses, so I'm gonna send Steve Ray Catholic apologist extraordinaire has linked to these

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I am going to play William Albrecht responses, and I'm going to demonstrate that they are anything, but responses, and if this is what

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Steve Ray an Ignatius press author a man who makes films about the early church a

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Frequent guest presented as an expert on the early church by Catholic answers if this is what he thinks is a

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Meaningful response to my series on Ignatius where I went through that chapter to the

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Smyrnians phrase by phrase Using the original language placing this as historical context if he thinks this is a response folks

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Put the gravestone over Catholic apologetics. It's over with there isn't even a contest left

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It's no wonder we can't get people to debate Because they have put their hands up in the air and said we give up.

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We can't do this. That's that's what they're doing This is the most amazing Capitulation I have ever seen on the part of pretty much anybody is what you're seeing in this type of situation, but Before we take a look at that.

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I just note If you want the most incredible tactics

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I Don't know I could not look at myself in the mirror in the morning if I behave the way

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Steve Ray behaves Because not only does he link to Albrecht, but then

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Look at this by the way a very capitalized very reputable theologian wrote to me yesterday saying

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I Just wanted to bring to your attention James White's analysis of your use of Ignatius Vaniak White's analysis may very well be the worst form

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Of sophism I have ever heard in fact. I began feeling really sorry for him I was embarrassed for him You should be proud of your work and the fact that your strongest critics wind up making your case even better keep up the good work

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Any substance to that no of course not I have not seen one Substantive reply anywhere to what

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I said about Ignatius not one Roman Catholic has gone into the original language of Ignatius Not one of them has even shown the first knowledge of the difference between the

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Latin and the Greek of Ignatius Not one of them has ever taught a class on Ignatius on the graduate level

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Not one of them has a clue what in the world they're talking about not one of them and Here's this very reputable theologian now one of two things is true either.

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This is made up by Ray. It's possible The man's very dishonest or this man who has written to him knows he could never defend what he's writing in debate and He's not gonna put himself in a position of having to do so who is this very reputable theologian.

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I'd like a name I'd like to be able to contact him would this person like to come on the program I will allow the very reputable theologian to come on the program.

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I'll give you 20 minutes Uninterrupted at your leisure at your schedule

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We will change the schedule of the dividing line very reputable theologian to fit your schedule

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I will give you 20 minutes to make your case to demonstrate Why it is embarrassing for me to have read

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Ignatius the way that I did as Long as you will then spend 40 minutes answering my questions based upon the

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Greek text of Ignatius If you don't do it, you ain't very reputable. Are you? Anybody want to take bets on whether that's gonna happen.

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Nope, it won't happen. But this challenge is out there Steve Ray Get your reputable theologian

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We will give him 20 minutes and we will air it live so that everybody who listens this program can hear

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How how dumb how stupid how embarrassing James White is here's your opportunity

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Would Catholic answers ever give me 20 uninterrupted minutes on Catholic answers live? What does that tell you folks one side has the truth one side doesn't and the other side knows it doesn't

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That's the difference between us all there is to it so anonymous theologians left aside now

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Let's take a look at what William Albrecht had to say here

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That's the opening of the video there. It's very pretty little opening I think probably did that because I had a nice pretty opening to mine, but Let's listen to what

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William Albrecht had to say he has two videos. They're not quite ten minutes each we should be able to get Most of it and depending upon how much time we we we have let's listen what he has to say

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All right, I apologize for not having gotten this done a little earlier Usually before recording videos on it for my youtube account.

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I just just real briefly remember This is supposed to be a response to five videos on Ignatius and if you remember the videos they're on my youtube account

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I quote Directly all of the chapter on the

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Smyrnians. It was about a I think 50 minute presentation I made back in 2004 on the subject of Ignatius so let's let how much of a response to what

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I really said 50 minutes worth of discussion on Ignatius let's see how much of a response we get

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I read up my transcript well I'm in sick for a few days so far

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But now I'm here, and I want to deal with a few things that James White has been up to once again um a little while back

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James White posted a video series dealing with st. Ignatius of Antioch and If you watch his video said he criticizes

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Catholics in a very ugly manner Yeah, just like Steve Ray I'm constantly saying that just just dealing with Catholic apologists makes me want to take a shower

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Like Steve Ray said about me today. Is that is that what I do. I don't think Excuse me he even gives impersonations of us and a little bit of a very impersonate

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Christopher I impersonate Christopher Hitchens not Catholic Very rude man.

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You know James White sometimes lacks a lot of respect he needs to be put in his place And that's what I'm here for. I'm here to defend the

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Catholic Church of Christ as Founded the church in which the gates of hell will never prevail over.

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I'm here to defend it Do my best to serve Christ in the fullest and I believe that James White is

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Very dishonest when it comes to the usage of the church fathers I believe he has to be you know as a Protestant James White is stuck in a rough position.

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You know the early church did not Believe or view the Bible in the way that he does so it's rough

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For him to really read the early church without ripping them out of their context now That's my accusation against Roman Catholics the difference is going to be

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I then go and I give you in context Translated by myself if I need to Examples of what

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I'm saying and that's the one thing we're not going to get from William what William believes

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See context for William is what modern Rome teaches See we think the word context means the context in which

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Ignatius wrote in which he lived That's not what context is for William you need to understand that or you're not gonna understand what he's saying context for William is what

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I believe establishes the context of the entirety of church history and So if you read anybody in church history disagrees with me that means that you are taking them out of context

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So the English language doesn't have any meaning context doesn't have any meaning. It's just been re worded shall we say and This remember folks this what does

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Steve Ray do does he defend himself? No, when he when he lied about Jerome who defended him Gary Machuta He tried to defend himself on the 30 ,000 denominations thing, but but melted down he lied about Jerome Machuta now

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He's letting William Albrecht defend him on the Ignatius stuff So this is this is what he says is a good response to what

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I said Well, you know, I know that James White knows that the early church was not Protestant So I do not that's why

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I do not understand what he can rip them out of context or what he does But anyway, we're gonna touch upon the series in which he deals upon.

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He actually is attempting to to to to make Steve Ray a Catholic apologist whom

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I have Spoken with Look that he's attempting to make Steve Ray look bad here.

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And uh, I think I'm gonna go ahead and try and uh Let Steve Ray a hand here because I know I know he's really busy right now

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And he's really busy running around Israel. Yeah, I want to start off with this video. It's uh And we're gonna cover all five of the videos and the relevant parts that we need to the

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James White is done on Ignatius I've been in 28 seconds into the video We hear James White making that make the accusation that Roman Catholics cannot handle the early church fathers in an accurate fashion

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Then we hear that only really Protestants can handle the early church fathers now.

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That's the section I just played for you. And what did I say the reason being

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Rome reads her dogmas into the early church? We don't have any dogmas that we have to read into the early church because of our view of authority and solo scriptura now listen as after having said that listen as William Albrecht gives us one of the clearest examples of reading your dogmas into the early church in the exact fashion that I talked about Couldn't help but laugh a little here the early church which believed in the privacy of the

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Pope prayer to the Saints gave respect you to Mary Did not believe in the premillennial rapture

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Believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the early church to give us a Bible not the Protestant Bible laughing seven books

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But the complete Bible it's that early church that the Protestants can handle right? That makes no sense whatsoever

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Now did you hear that? What this is this is the entire substance of William Albrecht is

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He says the early church believed what I believe remember the first video I played of him He's standing up against the wall.

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He's sort of whispering. There's some cellophane crumpled down along the bottom somewhere I don't know what's going on But everyone he'll walk out of the frame and play something and walk back into the frame and he's sitting there hitting his hand

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He's going the early church was Catholic and they believe what the Catholics believe They believe exactly what

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I believe about the transportation and he's just doing all this stuff. I was first one I ever saw of him

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That's what he believes he believes they believe in the primacy of the Pope now how many times we demonstrated that's not true

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Ignatius writes to the church at Rome not to the bishop at Rome. There is so much evidence

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Cyprian and Stephen Augustine and Zosimus, there's all this stuff But that's just all context.

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That's just all a context. They believe what I believe they believe what I believed about prayers of the Saints same way that we've and and serious

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Roman Catholic scholarship recognizes that these things developed over time a serious Roman Catholic scholarship isn't gonna make this kind of of argument, but William doesn't know that and Did he get pre -tribulational rapture

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Could somebody tell me when in the world I've taught that hello Hello anybody out there on this program a couple years ago.

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Remember I came out finally defying the mescatology It's called a millennial ism not pre -millennial ism

33:05

Yeah, might want to do some homework might want to do some research might want to figure out what's going on there but here's the whole point is from his perspective the early church looked exactly like Rome does today and therefore anyone who disagrees you're misquoting and you're ripping out of context now

33:22

That means those words no longer have normative meaning because when I talk about ripping out of context

33:27

I actually demonstrate what a context is I use the term context in the English language. We're not using the term context anymore the term context now means for for William what

33:37

I believe and So if you contradict what I believe then you are doing so out of context now, is that rational?

33:44

No, it makes no sense whatsoever But that's what William is all about. That's and that's this is the guy that Steve Ray is

33:53

Referring us to Steve Ray thinks this is a great response Did he listen to it?

33:58

I don't know Would it matter Steve Ray, I don't know doubt it That would require you to be actually concerned about truth and things like that And I have no evidence whatsoever that Steve Ray is concerned about truth

34:09

So, I don't know but that's what he's saying But it's no wonder why James White has never been able to deal with the early fathers in a cogent manner

34:16

In each one of my videos I have done I've demonstrated that James never dealt with any of the fathers that I mentioned that referred to the

34:23

Eucharist being the substantial presence of Christ now Anybody remember a dividing line where I spent a long time on Tertullian I still got the books sitting right over here and we talked about Augustine and there are entire videos up providing all these quotations and again

34:39

He says well you miss quoted Augustine what he means by that is you interpret Augustine differently than I do That's that's that's the whole substance of it.

34:47

And so when you make this kind of argumentation, it's called IPSA Dixon It's because I say so I don't have to give you citations

34:54

I don't have to demonstrate that my reading of these early church fathers is fair to them in their context

34:59

I don't have to demonstrate that the meanings of the words that I give are the meanings that they used I don't have to demonstrate any of that.

35:05

It's because I say it you are to believe it IPSA Dixon That's the argumentation the real presence

35:12

You never dealt with any of the fathers that I used but also dealt with the papers in the videos that I've used to respond To him. I hope people will go back and look at his videos and look at mine

35:20

Yes, do so avoids the fathers that are a problem to him I try to twist those that have some ambiguity in them to his spiking

35:26

Now notice twist so on so forth If you're gonna make those accusations back him up when he backs him up I blow him out of the water because he doesn't deal with the early church father.

35:35

He can't read the original languages He doesn't have access to resources that I have and it's it's embarrassing.

35:41

I'm sorry for William But you know, I was ready just forget about William I said in one of my videos last week, you know

35:46

You go to a certain point then you let someone just do their thing and you leave it to listeners if Steve Ray had not

35:53

Linked to him and said ah, look at these awesome responses I don't think I would have mentioned him once again, but since Steve Ray Catholic answers

36:03

Special guest etc, etc. Ignatius author has linked to him Well, then we need to hold

36:09

William to the same standards that well everybody else needs to be held Unfortunately that hasn't worked for him either In fact,

36:16

I think James has such a difficult time admitting what he is wrong that he lets his own dogma blind him a good

36:22

Instance of this is his wrenching st. Augustine out of context But this isn't something novel his hero

36:27

John Calvin was the one who came up with the very arguments in the real presence They hear James White parody Unfortunately for James White I've documented his errors and Augustine many times over and I've shown him just how badly he not only

36:39

Misquoted Augustine, but how badly he used him out of context to try and disprove the Eucharist I suggest anyone who listens to this video take notes

36:49

Now remember what have we heard about Ignatius so far? Have we heard anything about the background of the letter to the

36:55

Smyrnians about about the fact that no, this isn't actually an anti docetic Diatribe that this isn't his concern here.

37:04

Have you heard any of that? Have we heard any substantive? Argumentation whatsoever so far other than Ipsa Dixit.

37:10

Hey, I've refuted him over here. Remember Dave Armstrong last week Remember how Dave Armstrong his biggest argument is to me is

37:17

I've written all these papers against James and he doesn't refute any of them So he just stands refuted. Well now here it is again

37:24

Here's the same situation coming up now with with William Albrecht the arguments and James White uses have been used for years by him

37:32

He recycles his own arguments over and over even if they've been refuted about a million times My point is the new modern -day era of Protestants copy white in his arguments almost verbatim

37:43

They refer to the Catholic Church as Rome. They use the term sole ecclesia, etc, etc They're pretty much what

37:48

I like to call white cronies. They have no original arguments of their own white cronies Well, very proud to have you know provided information

37:57

Maybe William the reason that those arguments get repeated is Because the vast majority of rational folks do not find responses like yours to be rational and to be meaningful and to be useful

38:09

Maybe that's why they get repeated not because they've been refuted because so far you've refuted absolutely positively

38:16

Nothing, and we're halfway through the first video nothing on Ignatius so far Well, we can always hope which is good for us, you know, because if James White is it's so easy to refute

38:24

It's good the ones that are coming out of the out of the mold if I'm so easy to refute

38:30

Why is there nobody on the phone line right now? Why why isn't Steve Ray and Gary Machuda and William Albrecht and and all these people just lining up to demonstrate my foolishness?

38:41

Oh Because you hung up on that one guy. Yeah, how many minutes did I give him 43 minutes? You know the facts are so obvious here that it's it's it's it's hard to comment

38:51

Uh are pretty much recycling the same wall arguments. They run out of arguments. They run out of ways to tackle

38:56

Catholic Church You've got it you've got to feel quite sorry if Misrepresenting the early church fathers is the best that Protestantism can do then you've got to feel a little bit of pity

39:06

There's no way on earth The early church that you see anything remotely resembling modern -day or even ancient

39:13

Protestantism for that matter but Now let's go to the 70

39:19

Ignatius of Antioch, here we go. We're gonna dissect mr. The locations that we disagree with okay, we are five minutes into an eight.

39:28

We've got three minutes left here My presentation was 50 minutes long and we are going to dissect

39:34

What I had to say and let me tell you right now He only goes three minutes into the next one We have a total of six minutes in response to 50, but it's a dissection of what

39:42

I had to say all right Watch your videos wanted to we really have no issues at all

39:47

James White is pretty much reading Ignatius words as you come No missed it the first two videos established the very context of the

39:58

Antidocetic diatribe that is the second section of the letter to the Smyrnians This is called establishing context.

40:05

This is called doing exegesis This is called being fair in reading what somebody else wrote a long time ago

40:14

That's what the first two were about but the fact that he doesn't have anything to say about it demonstrates that he has no idea how to handle

40:21

Historical sources in any meaningful fashion at all to pure unadulterated attack against narcissism a heresy at the

40:27

Catholic Church was able to stamp out in the early goings Really here's what things do get good though really the the

40:33

Catholic Church which of course member for him He doesn't differentiate between modern Rome and ancient

40:38

Catholic of course. He's just using that that term to refer his own church Why is it then that it's the

40:45

Roman Catholic Church who today? promotes as dogmas Beliefs that originally appeared amongst the

40:51

Gnostics regarding Mary and especially about her perpetual virginity Why is that?

40:58

Why is those beliefs first found amongst the Gnostics if they were stamped out by the Roman Catholic Church always makes me wonder

41:03

Nearly four minutes into video number three James White begins to use a certain quotation from Ignatius Let us listen to the relevant quotation listen to what

41:11

James feels fit to add to it They touch him and bleed being close to you not to this flesh and blood nothing about Eucharist here nothing about transubstantiation nothing at all

41:23

Here James says we have I think we got a quote what was that maybe 20 seconds grand total

41:29

I'm playing his entire videos, and they quote 20 seconds. That's all he could do because you don't want to put it in Context do you know about Eucharist?

41:38

Well, I'll give you some credit here James you got that right no one claims this verse is speaking about the Eucharist It's clear

41:44

Ignatius speaking about the resurrected Christ And my point was that as we follow the language through to Ignatius his own words

41:55

We discover that he is specifically addressing one particular subject

42:01

And it is Roman Catholics who have to read into those words Concepts that would not have been

42:08

Relevant to the argument he was making folks if you interpret somebody who is making an argument in such a way as to refute that argument you are probably

42:17

Misinterpreting them that was my point We've not gotten to the famous Eucharist verse yet, so I don't understand why you feel is the necessity to add your little commentary here

42:27

It's called context William context Demonstrating what comes before that gives the

42:37

Framework for the meaning of the actual text. It's called. This is the real meaning of context

42:43

William I understand that you have come up with a different word a different meaning for context Do you feel the word context is a completely different concept, but if you'll go to a dictionary you'll discover that what

42:53

I was addressing was Context and no Saudi said I added something to Ignatius there so in other words if I comment on What Ignatius says

43:03

I'm adding to him. That's where he gets the misquoting all this stuff. It's amazing the double standard He can do it, and he doesn't accuse himself of that but if a

43:11

Protestant even makes commentary on something you are adding to what they said see just It's the irrationality is absolutely astounding close to four minutes in the video number four on Ignatius James White nearly rips

43:24

Ignatius completely off the screen of your computer So terribly distorting his words and trying to convince you that Ignatius was not speaking of the real presence of Christ in the

43:31

Eucharist That all James really does is make himself look silly. There's no reading around what Ignatius says let me read it for you

43:39

I'll read it slowly This is Ignatius They abstain from the Eucharist who does well as James White explains the heretical teachers do

43:47

They abstain from the Eucharist and pray they abstain from both notice Because they refuse to acknowledge that the

43:54

Eucharist is a flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ Which suffered for our sins and which the father by his goodness raised up, so stop for a moment here

44:03

What is the Eucharist here? It is as Ignatius says it's a flesh of Jesus Christ James White wants us to be fair to Ignatius, and we're gonna be we don't we really are

44:13

James White you're quite clever I've got admit for not reading all of what Ignatius says

44:18

But we're gonna read it all because James White stops right at the verse and begins to twist

44:23

Ignatius words into a thousand different Presence now, let's just stop right there. What have we have we had a single fact presented?

44:32

No, we've had accusation groundless accusation after groundless accusation without any documentation on any substantiation whatsoever

44:39

It's just throw out all this attack Accused me of everything in the Sun, but don't bother to provide anything now

44:46

You'll notice he doesn't seem to recognize there's a difference between the Greek of Ignatius and the

44:51

Latin version The man just doesn't know he is he is unschooled. He's untaught. He doesn't know and so when

44:58

I use the Greek Rather than an expanded Latin. Oh, I'm taking stuff out or If I don't quote all of Ignatius even though I said at the beginning of the video

45:09

We're gonna deal with this one text, which is letter to Smyrnians chapter 2 we're gonna deal with one thing

45:15

So now the argument is well if you don't read all of Ignatius and you let XG all of Ignatius Then you're trying to hide something.

45:23

I mean Every single video he has done He could be accused of the exact same thing.

45:30

It is called hypocrisy to use double standards like this. It is absolutely amazing

45:36

Let's continue on right after that that uh that verse now does he respond to anything that I said?

45:42

About what this means in regards to why a docetic Gnostic would not partake of the supper

45:51

Does it does he even seem to understand what the argument is? I see no evidence of it.

45:56

Do you I? Did not see any evidence that William Albrecht Hears what the argument was that Ignatius was making he is so wedded to modern

46:07

Rome He's so wedded to what Rome says that that's just all there is to it He cannot see or hear anything beyond that Ignatius says

46:16

Those therefore who speak against this gift of God incurred death in the midst of their disputes

46:23

But it were better for them to treat it with respect that they also might rise again It is fitting therefore that you should keep aloof from such persons and not to speak of them either in private or in public

46:34

But to give heed to the prophets and above all to the gospel in which the passion of Christ has been revealed to us and The resurrection has been fully proved but avoid all divisions as a beginning of evils

46:46

Now if you had stopped off with James White Did you would it be possible to try and prove that Ignatius was indeed not speaking of the

46:51

Eucharist in the sense of the real? Presence the actual flesh flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think so at all

46:58

Was there anything and he just quote that's even slightly relevant To the argument that I made

47:05

There's nothing there at all. I mean You just go on you read something else out of Ignatius go

47:11

We'll see that that just proves that this has to do with real presence And again, though I've written to him and challenged him on this

47:18

William just assumes that real presence equals Transplantation the idea that you actually have to make that connection historically you have to demonstrate that someone held to Aristotelian categories of accidents and presence and everything that which any for on any scholarly level whatsoever

47:37

Has to be a part of the utilization of that terminology. Does he even care?

47:43

No in the second video. He actually tries to say well, you know They didn't actually what he says and we'll get to play it what he says

47:50

Well, yeah, they didn't use term transplantation because that term hadn't been deployed yet deployed yet Okay But they believe the basic concept

48:00

So what you're saying is they held to Aristotelian categories of accidents and presence they sat and developed this particular word yet Is that what you're arguing?

48:07

You really want to try to establish that you really want to try to substantiate that No, you don't have to substantiate that when you have

48:14

IPSA Dixon it is because I say it is I listen to James presentation of this passage over and over and there's something

48:20

I said at the very get -go of my communication with James The correspondence and videos and letters Something I've said since the very beginning of speaking of James I think the

48:30

James White should have been a wrestler because no one wrestles words out of context better than him

48:35

And I mean no one he's the very best at it So if you continue and you read

48:41

Ignatius you stop and see that he indeed was speaking of the Eucharist as a gift from God But heretics failed to treat with respect something

48:48

James White Why did they feel fail to do so because they rejected the

48:56

Incarnation of Jesus Christ therefore there cannot be a remembrance of a physical body of Christ because he didn't have one that is the concern of Ignatius and who is

49:08

Paying attention to context who even shows an understanding of what the word context means the wrestler

49:14

James White or William Albrecht that is the member remember if you're sitting on and you just shouldn't be picking on this poor young guy

49:22

I'm not the one that posted his responses as being an example of good

49:29

Catholic apologetics That was Steve Ray Catholic apologist author speaker and when

49:36

Roman Catholics who are serious about their faith want to start standing up and saying we're tired of the roadshow of people like Steve Ray Then I'll applaud you

49:48

But as long as you keep your mouths shut and allow these people to get away with this stuff just because it serves

49:54

Mother Church Then you will need to be held accountable for what these people are saying

50:05

And that's the end of The first video I had lots and lots and lots and lots of fun trying to track down all the videos

50:14

Was it was really a joyous experience and here's the second one

50:31

As I said a little moment ago I think James White is incredible in the way he attempts to wrench the early church fathers out of context in this case

50:41

Ignatius Towards the end of this video We get treated with a wonderful little closing image from James White.

50:49

This is the final video part now now final video How much interaction have we had so far?

50:55

We have had one citation of a later portion Accusation I was trying to hide this or something where the

51:01

Eucharist is seen as a gift and somehow this is supposed to be relevant That's it Nothing.

51:07

No, I mean if I'm so wrenching these things out of context Why can't you fill?

51:13

40 minutes worth of time with all the examples of where I'm completely missing the context Because I'm not that's why

51:21

I'm using the term context in the English sense. I don't know what language will you find the series? James White says who then is able to examine the text of Ignatius fairly and fully

51:31

Roman Catholics seeking to find their dogmatic teachings in ancient writings or those who can allow the early writers to be the early writers

51:39

Let's remember what James said in one of his earlier videos now, by the way, did Steve Ray hear that He just quoted me and yet Steve Ray uses as the title of his blog

51:50

The idea that I'm asserting that Ignatius reformed Baptist I'd play liar again, but don't have time

51:56

It isn't Catholics that can use early church followers in their context It is a

52:02

Protestants that can actually read the church fathers in context James White said that This is correct

52:08

It isn't correct Ignatius did not have a concept of the Eucharist in the sense that John Calvin did or okay

52:14

Did I ever say Ignatius had a had a concept of the Eucharist that identical

52:19

John Calvin? Did I say that is that in my videos anywhere? No, I did not say that I Allowed Ignatius to have

52:28

Ignatius's view. I don't need him to have my view. I don't need him to have

52:33

Calvin's view if You can't hear that William you will never make a meaningful argument against my position and rational folks clear -thinking people will recognize that and you don't seem to realize you are utterly destroying your entire argument and Your entire credibility if you cannot hear what it is

52:57

I'm actually saying and respond to it James White The Catholic Church has always understood the true meaning of the real presence

53:04

Prove it. The church is always believing the Eucharist as a substantial presence of Christ prove it so far

53:10

It's a Dixit. It's a Dixit. It's a Dixit. It's cuz I say it. I can't prove Ignatius I just absolutely have to believe this and if I don't believe this,

53:18

I don't know what else I'm gonna do So I'm just gonna keep repeating these sayings if I repeat them often enough. I'll still believe not a mere spiritual or symbolic representation but Is this the only time

53:29

Ignatius speaks to the Eucharist there's the end We're gonna go beyond this but that's it folks.

53:34

That's that's the entirety of the interaction with my material and Ignatius That's it.

53:40

That's what Steve Ray says is a great response if My material is so bad.

53:45

You should be able to triple its length and demonstrating how stupid I am But what do we get?

53:51

absolutely positively nothing nothing other than documentation that William Albrecht doesn't read church history very well and Steve Ray is a very very dishonest man

54:04

No, it is in fact James never touches upon another famously quoted test by the I see that James never touches upon that Well William you're wrong because if you would listen carefully

54:15

I was teaching an entire class on patristics which meant reading all the way through Ignatius back then

54:20

How do you know I never touch on that? This is a common kind of argumentation

54:26

It's you know poisoning the well trying to tell people that someone's lying to them or something like that. They're purposefully misleading you all

54:33

I Presented in those videos was on Smyrnians the Ignatius epistle was

54:39

Smyrnians I did not even pretend to be covering all of Ignatius This is a common form of bogus argumentation people who use it have already lost the debate

54:48

Ignatius and many others for that matter In this one, I want to cover Ignatius in his letter the

54:54

Romans chapter 7 The person this world now, please know something if you're going to be reading along with this

55:01

He's reading from the expanded Latin. He's not reading from just the Greek I have here

55:07

Michael Holmes a translation of this particular section and this is what is eventually get to he reads for a long long time, but eventually gets to this

55:16

Ignatius is on his way to Rome Please note when he wrote to the Romans he did not write to the bishop

55:23

He mentioned the bishop of all the other churches He writes to the church at Rome not to the bishop at Rome Because there was no single bishop in Rome at this time

55:34

Even though William earlier said that well, they all believe in the papal primacy for some reason that didn't appear in this letter

55:41

And he is telling the Romans don't get in the way of my martyrdom I'm ready to die and He says my passionate love has been crucified and there is no fire of material longing within me

55:53

But only water living and speaking in me saying within me come to the father. I take no pleasure in corruptible food

55:59

Or the pleasures of this life I want the bread of God which is the flesh of Christ who is of the seed of David and for drink

56:07

I want his blood which is incorruptible love Now look at the text as it stands don't read your modern dogma into it

56:17

When he says I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ who is of the seed of David What does that mean?

56:25

Does that mean I want to partake of the mass and transubstantiation or? it's the fact that he mentions he is a seed of David which he also did the

56:34

Smyrnians a Demonstration of the fact that Jesus Christ truly became flesh that was his big apologetic concern

56:42

And when he says for drink, I want his blood does the next phrase say?

56:48

Which is transubstantiated in the mass No, he identifies this drink as Incorruptible love

56:57

Not as a physical thing just as Augustine would say later Don't make ready tongue -and -mouth if you have believed you have eaten already

57:06

This is very consistent with what Ignatius says now will William put it in a meaningful context

57:12

Ain't carrying me away and corrupt my disposition towards God Let none of you therefore who are in Rome help him rather be in my sight that is on the side of God Do not speak of Jesus Christ and yet set your desires in the world

57:25

Let not envy find a dwelling place among nor even should I when present with you exhort you to it

57:30

Be persuaded to listen, but rather give credit to those things which I now write to you

57:37

For the way I'm alive while I write to you yet I am eager to die my love has been crucified and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed

57:43

But there is within me a water that lives and speaks singing to me inwardly come to the father

57:49

I have no delight in corruptible food nor in the pleasures of this life I desire the bread of God the heavenly bread the bread of life

57:58

Which is the flesh of Jesus Christ the Son of God Who became afterwards of the of the seed of David and Abraham and I desire the drink of God Namely his blood which is incorruptible love and eternal life

58:12

Notice the expansion the Latin over the much shorter version in the Greek Then it is in his letter to the

58:17

Philadelphians in a discourse in avoiding. Well won't see any commentary any

58:22

Replacing in context any doing what you'd have to do if you really think that this has something to do with transubstantiation

58:29

What would you have to do to prove that where is the Aristotelian categories of accidents and presence?

58:35

Where is it William if you're gonna deal with these types of things be honest with them.

58:41

Where is the information? All he does is read it and just assumes well that sounds like what

58:48

I believe so it must be what I believe There you go. There's the argumentation

58:54

Heretics excuse us. He tells us in chapter 4. This is Ignatius Take them to have but one

59:01

Eucharist There for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup to show forth the unity of his blood

59:09

One altar as there is one bishop along with the presbytery and deacons my fellow servants

59:15

That's so whatsoever you do you may do it according to the will of God Yeah Now notice

59:23

I just froze the video and you can't see it this way if you go and look at it He has capitalized the entirety of the term altar

59:30

And so what what does he do just assumes reads into that use?

59:37

later Concepts later, you know what this is very much like Think about dividing lines.

59:44

We've done recently who does the exact same thing who takes a modern concept and Wears it as glasses and then looks back in church history and reads everything into it the

59:55

Muslims Since my ultimate authority the Quran says Jesus was not crucified

01:00:01

Therefore I read church history and he wasn't Since my ultimate authority the Quran says

01:00:07

Jesus not the Son of God I look into church history and the New Testament must be corrupted William Albrecht since my ultimate authority says there's something called transubstantiation

01:00:14

I look into church history and I read it into every word I can find it and squeeze it into It doesn't matter if the original writer would not have had a clue what in the world

01:00:22

I was talking about did not have the Philosophical framework to have had these kinds of understandings. I'm gonna read it into it.

01:00:28

Anyways, this is the abuse of church Oh, mr. White Ignatius was a Protestant. That must be read through Protestant lessons, right?

01:00:35

Do you hear that? Did you hear that? He's I let me see if I can I don't know how well it's gonna work backing it up But let me just see if I can bring it back here

01:00:45

Whatsoever you do you may do it according to the will of God Yeah, mr.

01:00:51

White Ignatius was a Protestant that must be read through Protestant lessons, right Where did

01:00:56

I ever say that? The early church was

01:01:06

Catholic and if that didn't bother you then you wouldn't have to wrench them out of the contest What I cover a little bit more of the the early fathers this

01:01:17

Discourse of the rest. He just goes on from there. He goes and reads from Robertson Genesis Catholic Study Bible This is a response on Ignatius, there you go.

01:01:29

This is the best Rome has to offer It's is there even a battle here?

01:01:36

My goodness Anonymous well -known theologians and a poor young man on YouTube sitting in his in his bedroom with 1980s

01:01:49

Rocker thing back behind it. We haven't quite figured out what that somebody actually figured out what that thing in the background is But I I forgot what it was because I was a

01:01:56

Christian in the 1980s and I saw I didn't know Sir, why I didn't know about the liar. So There it is there it is

01:02:03

I don't make this stuff up There's there's what he has and you know, what's gonna happen now since we're out of time.

01:02:10

I've actually gone over time You know what? He's gonna do he didn't finish playing my video cuz he couldn't respond to it

01:02:16

So you can get blown out of the water on everything you set up that point, but if they don't then spend more time

01:02:23

Continuing to demonstrate that you're not even reasoning logically. That's where you must have must have had

01:02:31

Amazing absolutely amazing. Well, there you go folks. What what do we learn from this? Well Obviously buyer beware you really need to check out what people are saying and I'll just tell you one story and and I can tell you that just recently

01:02:52

We heard another version of this very same type of thing. This is why these people do it in the second debate with Tim Staples in Fullerton, California there was a man who had converted

01:03:08

Roman Catholicism and I knew who he was and He knew

01:03:14

I was and he knew I would I would recognize him by face we had Spoken before he converted Roman Catholicism.

01:03:20

He didn't speak to me about converting to Roman Catholicism. They ever do but That was that was the case and he was at the debate and I watched him and other people watched him

01:03:30

You know what? He did When Tim Staples would speak he was in the room and he would listen and as soon as I got up he left

01:03:38

He is not the only person that we have talked to who has said well, yeah, I know about James White, but to be honest with you

01:03:47

You know, if even I've listened to debates I sort of just fast -forward through what he was saying

01:03:54

That's why these people do this because they know that their followers They have to find some way to keep their followers from really listening to what we have to say they just got to do it and If it involves dishonesty if it involves simply lying

01:04:12

Dave Armstrong last week. Yeah, nobody can respond to my stuff. They just uh, you know, uh, or or Steve Ray this week

01:04:20

Yeah that anti -catholic. I won't even mention his name Even though he sort of forgot that the quote -unquote theologian did

01:04:28

He thinks Ignatius was reformed Baptist. Isn't that funny folks? Let's all that's just all laugh at the

01:04:34

Baptist He's an anti -catholic, you know Actually when you lie about folks that makes you an anti -baptist doesn't it when you lie about folks?

01:04:42

Yeah, I think Steve Ray is definitely an anti -baptist. That's what you got to do and I am so thankful That I can look myself in the face in the mirror in the morning and I don't have to lie about these folks.

01:04:59

I I'm the one playing them. I can let them speak and the more they speak the more they hang themselves.

01:05:07

I Don't have to live myself little snippets. I don't have to lie about them. I Can let them speak for themselves?

01:05:13

That's what happens when you believe the truth and That's why we do the dividing line

01:05:21

Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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