If You Don't Do This, You're Not a Christian | Failing at Apologetics (Dr. Clay Jones)

For those young up-and-coming apologists in the making, what should they be focusing on? What should they know in terms of arguments? What should they be doing and what should they be avoiding?

Well, you know, first thing I would like to say is they need to be focused on walking with the Lord and abiding in Jesus and reading the Bible and doing what it says. I just, well, we've just recently had an example of someone who wasn't doing that, but they need to be abiding in the Word.

Jesus said, everybody loves, even atheists will say, you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. They like that part. The first part of that is, if you abide in my Word, then you truly are my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.

That's right. And so I would encourage anybody, any young apologist, make sure you're abiding in the Word and you're doing it. You're doing what it says now, now that we got that out of the way. Because a lot of, some of these, you know, I've been in an apologetics department now for many years.

I've personally been part of the training of hundreds of apologists. And all I can say is, is some of, you know, some of these people do not have a robust relationship with Jesus and that's going to get you into trouble.

So the first thing, anyway, so I had to be a little bit pastoral here at the outset. Now, after that, obviously you need to just do the general reference works on what, you know, apologetics reference works for some of the key works.

Then I would pray and fast about how you would think God should use you. I don't think, I prayed and fasted a lot for direction and I felt like the Lord has really used that powerfully in my life in guiding me.

So I would encourage them to pray and fast. Some people, and then I would say, pursue what interests you. I had a guy recently on Facebook, he says, yeah, he says, let's talk about what's going to be on our reading list.

And now, once, you know, once you've done the general reference works, I don't even understand that. I'm not, I told everybody, I said, I don't read, I don't read books. And I think that might have surprised them at first.

I said, I don't read books, which is true. I don't read books. And by that, I mean, I don't sit down and go, Hey, here's a book I had to read and just start reading it. I go to books and I'm reading them constantly going, I need to answer questions.

I need to answer this argument. I need to answer that argument. I need to be more precise here. I need to be able, what is it that I don't understand? Because there's something I don't understand here.

I need to understand that. And I look at the books as sources to answering questions that I have. I really encourage everybody to do that. Some people can't, my wife, you know, who is extremely skilled, by the way, in apologetics and, uh, but she, she reads books cover to cover great.

I'm just, I'm not that guy. And so if you really want to read them cover to cover, but I just don't have the time. So I would, uh, and then like we, what's really fascinating to you, read what fascinates you and then, but don't, sometimes it's concerning to me because some of these people I go, do you intend to use this knowledge?

And it concerns me because some of the times I go, I'm not sure they do. Uh, I mean, it's like, yeah, no, I just love studying it. It's like, it's kind of my hobby horse and I kind of get into it and aren't these arguments interesting?

And I go, yeah, but you need to find a way to use this stuff. I would be praying actively on how to use it. That's good.

In terms of the category of fundamentals or, you know, the generals, um, are there, is there like a book that captures all of that? Would you recommend that young up and comers read John Warwick Montgomery or?

Oh, not necessarily. I mean, Montgomery's sometimes Montgomery was intentionally over people's heads. Uh, he wrote this book entitled Christianity for the tough minded. Wow. Uh, that book was hard. Uh, you know, so no, I wouldn't necessarily, I would read, you know, I mean, things by a lot of the generalists.

I mean, Sean McDowell, it's hard to go wrong with, with things that he's doing and, and, uh, that of course that he's done with his dad. I mean, I have a lot of respect for Sean and Josh. Uh, uh, I would have actually recommended Ravi and I think, I think we need to be careful not to toss the baby out with a bathwater.

His arguments are still good. And I, you know, I, the arguments are good. It's just sad that the way that transpired, uh, but, but, uh, then, you know, for just generalist material, um, you know, William Lane Craig's reasonable faith is a, is a very good work.

Uh, and, and, you know, I mean, there's a host of others, but, uh, I, I'm a big C .S. Lewis fan. Yeah. But that's a softer, gentler kind of apologetics, which is great and it's needed, but it's very, you know, it's a softer, gentler approach.

Right.

I think the first, one of the first books I ever read was the Francis Schaeffer trilogy. So, uh, what is it? The God who was there, he is there and he's not silent and I forget the other one, but, and then, uh, philosophical foundations for a Christian worldview.

I would not recommend that. That's pretty hefty. Um, so I appreciate those recommendations, um, in the area. So we're kind of touching on a little bit, but in the area of character, maybe we should talk about that for another couple of minutes because you actually sent me some articles.

They were excellent. I think your points are spot on and, and just totally right. Um, but how, like, how much should the young apologist be spending on focusing their character and developing?

Well, they need to be back to reading the Bible. They need to be reading the Bible and they need to read the Bible and do what it says. Yeah. Uh, and, and if they're doing that and, and, and not allow apologetic study to replace Bible reading, because it's not the same thing, unfortunately.

Uh, it's just not. Uh, you can study the philosophy and the evidence, uh, and, and, uh, scientific arguments and stuff like that, which are all important. They're all good. Uh, and should be studied if you were interested in apologetics, but you really need to make sure you have a robust relationship with Jesus.

And a lot of people don't. And uh, as I think it might've sent you this article, you need to keep a clear conscience. Yeah. Uh, keep a clear conscience. Do not, you know, do not. If you don't keep a clear conscience, sooner or later, you're going to go down in flames.

And, uh, I've seen a lot of people where obviously there came a point in their ministry where they stopped keeping a clear conscience because if they were keeping a clear conscience, they would not have kept going in the direction that they were going.

Yeah. So anyway, yeah.

That would be like in the realm of dying self daily. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I, you know, I, I'm not. I'm shy about this. I talk about this a lot, you know, many years ago when I first encountered porn, I thought we could be friends for life. Now I was like seven years old and then it was comparatively very mild back then.

Like more like swimsuit illustrated. Uh, but, but I thought we could be friends for life. I don't understand it. But after I became a Christian, I think, okay, this is wrong. And then I got married and I was occasionally stumbled by it.

And so I thought I can't let this go on in my life. And so I confessed to my wife and I said, if I ever looked at porn again, I will let you know immediately. I'll let you know that day. And I'm ashamed to say that there's been quite a few times in years past, I haven't had to do this for years now, but in years past where I've had to confess to her and say, I'm sorry, but we need to take sin seriously.

And uh, by the way, I'll give you one other thing. I made the decision years ago that if I intentionally ever clicked on pornography that I would now it's a six meal, consecutive six meal fast. And now I can tell you, I'm not interested.

Ha! An image comes up. It's like, Whoa! Get away. I am not, I'm not getting near this because that would mean a consecutive six meal fast. And yes, years ago I did some serious fasting because of that.

Now it's like not worth it. Anyway, I'm just saying this is all to say, and I'm not saying people need to do what I did. They don't need to do that. But I am saying that people need to do something. The Christians need to do something.

They can't just allow sin to reign in their life. If they do, honestly, they're going to watch their ministries blow up. And it's not just this most recent situation. We've seen this happen again and again and again in one leader fall after another.

And I'll tell you the first thing that happens is somewhere, somewhere they stop keeping a clear conscience.

It's an interesting trajectory to, on the one hand, develop your knowledge, develop training in the area of argumentation and all of those things. And then on the other hand, be sanctified by submitting to the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's like it's, but it's really important that everybody does this. Oh yeah.

In fact, if you don't do it, you're basically not a Christian. You know, I mean, again, Jesus said, if you abide in my word, then you really are my disciple. So if you're not abiding in his word, well, then you're probably not his disciple.

So we got a lot of people out there and unfortunately this is apologists, but it's not just apologists, different kinds of ministries and stuff, you know, who even pastors who are not abiding in God's word.

And then all of a sudden they supernova and everybody goes, wow, what happened? Well, they did. They weren't abiding in God's word and they didn't keep a clear conscience. Yeah.

That's right. By this, my father is glorified that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciple.

Yes, exactly. And, you know, I mean, I am appalled to see on, Jeannie and I, to watch something that's clean, we don't watch The Bachelor or things like that, but we watch some reality TV. I like Amazing Race.

I like shows like that. Anyway, I'm surprised at how often they will interview people in these reality shows. It'll say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian. And then like in the next breath, they'll say, and yeah, yeah, I was sleeping, you know, I was living with this girl, I mean, like three months ago and now, uh, you know, that's not, uh, you know, that's not happening anymore and, but he's not, he or she's not embarrassed about it.

They're not embarrassed. Why aren't you embarrassed about it? Now, I understand Christian sin, I'm not saying, obviously, but if you fall into sin, you need to repent and you need to change your life.

And I cannot emphasize this enough to young apologists. You need to make sure you're walking with Jesus and do not allow apologetics to be, well, no, I'm doing Christian stuff because I'm studying the Kalam or the bibliographical test or what, fine, study those things.

But that does not replace walking with Jesus and doing what he says.

That's right. Because there's a danger in falling in love, falling more in love with your ministry about Jesus and then Jesus of your ministry.

That's exactly, that's well put. That's exactly right. Because see, then it becomes, and then you see, because you're, you can lust, like I say, lust, you're either going to lust after God and his kingdom, or you're going to lust after people, possessions, positions, or pleasures.

In that case of position, I'm going to work myself up to be a famous apologist. That's no more spiritual than wanting to be a CEO of a fortune 500. Not any more spiritual at all. Uh, you know, I mean, that's, it's just not, that's just the lust of this world.

Sure. If you say, but I wanted to be an apologist. I want to, who's pleasing God, two thumbs up. Uh, I'm all for you to go for it, but I want to be famous. Don't, don't, don't do that. That's destructive.

And it's, and people would get these, each other on a ladder. Well, Bill Craig or CS Lewis or whatever, they're up here. And then there's Clay Joseph. Well, he's down here. And then, but I'm coming up on it.

You know, I mean, I'm not on the ladder. I'm not, I'm because our hearts are all going to be exposed to the judgment and I'm not on the ladder, uh, because the Lord's going to look at me and he's going to examine my motives and it's not going to depend at all on how many books you've written, uh, how big your audiences are, that's completely irrelevant to how you will be judged.

Uh, reading first Corinthians chapter four, one through five, that's not how you will be judged. Instead, your heart will be exposed. Everyone will see your motives. And then the scripture says you will receive your reward from God.

Because intelligence, frankly, is not that important. Uh, God can grant intelligence for easily if he wants to. What's what's important is Christlike character and doing things for the right reason. In other words, I want to please Jesus and not because I want to name, I want to be up there and, and, oh, wow, look at him.

He's really something I want to be that. No, that's just, that's just fleshly and worldly.

For myself personally. And then I know of course, for our audience, um, we've been really, we benefited by what you've been doing, um, where you've been following what God has impressed upon you to explore.

And so, um, I just encourage you to keep going and thank you so much for chatting with me today.

Thank you, Nate. It's been a pleasure to be with you and I always look forward to talking to you.