The Christian Reformed Church Fights Over Homosexuality

Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. Well, many of you know that last week was the Southern Baptist Convention. And I did a number of videos on what took place at the Southern Baptist Convention, I think three of them at least.

And a lot of the audience, I think, or a good portion are Southern Baptists or were Southern Baptists. But obviously the Southern Baptists are not the only denomination out there. They may be the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, but there are areas of this country where they have significantly less influence and there are other Protestant denominations with a whole lot more influence.

And one of the denominations that I know we talked about it last year and they have their convention around the same time, or I don't think they call it a convention, but their annual meeting is the CRC, the Christian Reformed Church.

And they're very influential, especially in Michigan and the Grand Rapids area, but also in parts of Canada and the Midwest. And they represent a certain stream of the Dutch Reformed tradition. And they had their meeting and some of the same issues that have been coming up in these other denominations, like the Presbyterian Church in America and the Southern Baptists are also coming up in the CRC.

And so to help me report on this, we're going to show you some clips and you can make up your own mind, but to help interpret this, we have Pastor Lloyd Hemstreet who is a pastor at Coopersville Christian Reform Church in Michigan.

He's also he works with the Abide Project, which is kind of like, for those who don't know like the Gospel Reformation Network or the Conservative Baptist Network, it's the more conservative group in the CRC.

And he has volunteered to help us understand what's going on. So thank you so much for joining us, Pastor Hemstreet.

Yeah. Well,.

Thank you,.

John,.

For inviting me on to have this conversation with you. And I really appreciated your video last year. We still talk about some of the language you used as an outsider. You were able to look into our denomination and see,.

Hey,.

That's kind of how they speak to one another.

Yeah,.

That's us. So anyway.

Yeah.

The library voice thing,.

Right?

Yes. Yes.

The library voice and NPR voice. You mentioned it as last year.

So yeah,.

I just got back from it. We call it Synod is what it is. We have 49 classes in the U .S. and Canada. Each class is allowed to send four representatives, four delegates to Synod. And so we had right around 188 delegates meeting at Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

And that's where we get together for a week to do the business of the denomination in our broadest assembly. So that's what we just got back from.

And is it at Calvin University every year?

It is not at Calvin University every year.

However,.

The denomination owns Calvin University. And so that's the cheapest place to host it.

Makes sense.

I believe not next year, but the following year it'll be out at Dort College in Iowa, a Dort University in Iowa. So it moves around Chicago and Iowa and sometimes across the border in.

Canada,.

Too.

But the cheapest, easiest place to do it is local to the headquarters in Grand Rapids,.

Michigan.

I know this is a little off topic perhaps, but Calvin University,.

I mean,.

Kristin Demez teaches there,.

Right? I mean,.

It's true when you go into Calvin University, even though it's owned by the denomination, is there a different? I remember last year, I think like even some of the professors were against the decision that there are the denomination who owns their university made.

I just was wondering if you feel like you're on like the liberal turf or something, if you're there.

Uh,.

There was discussion along those lines. And that is a little bit of what we have going on. At the same time, Calvin University elected a new president last year. And that president is being very intentional about, he doesn't want the college, the university to just go a separate way.

He wants to work together with the church. And so if the church is changing direction, he seems open to say,.

Hey,.

The university needs to come along. So we're in process at Calvin University, I would say.

So the church, you said it's going in a certain direction. Walk us through what happened last year and then what happened this year. In regards to the hot button issue, which is the inclusion, I guess, of people or beliefs, churches who want to maintain that homosexual marriage is somehow legitimate or biblical,.

Right?

Correct.

Correct. That is the discussion we've been having for a number of years,.

Uh,.

Going back to 2016, a report came where they tried to take the denomination affirming and that got shot down,.

Said,.

We're not going that way. We're going to have a different committee. That committee was supposed to report,.

Uh,.

After five years in 2021 got delayed because of COVID. So 2022 was the big discussion kind of in our denomination.

Uh,.

During that time, there was a church that said,.

Well,.

Let's try this out. And so they went ahead and,.

Uh,.

In 2020 elected an office bearer that was in a same sex marriage as it's called. And so, so we had not only the theoretical, but also the real case going on. And so that was what was discussed at Synod 2022.

I was not a delegate to that one. I was just watching on like everyone else. And last year we made decisions and we said,.

No,.

This is confessional status.

Uh,.

That means that,.

You know,.

Under scripture,.

Uh,.

The confessions are the, the second highest ranking item in our denomination. And we said that,.

You know,.

When the Heidelberg Catechism question 108 talks about the issues of unchastity, it's saying that any sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman covenanted together for life, that is out of bounds for God's people.

And that's not how we're to live. And so that is what we stated of pornography, polyamory and homosexual sex. We said are all included in unchastity. And so they're not, it's not an acceptable argument in our denomination.

Along with that last year, they went ahead and addressed that church that said,.

Hey,.

We're going to try and do this on our own.

And,.

Uh,.

Said you need to immediately rescind the decision to,.

Uh, to, to, uh,.

Approve this office bear, this deacon, and you need to come into line with the denomination. So that is what took place in 2022 in a, in a encapsulated form.

So that was because there were,.

Uh,.

As you say,.

Um,.

There was a church that actually had employed someone who was in this homosexual,.

Uh,.

Relationship or marriage,.

I suppose,.

Uh,.

As they thought of it.

And,.

Um,.

Obviously we wouldn't consider that to be a legitimate marriage,.

But, uh,.

The, there,.

There was people in the denomination wanting to push it this direction. And so this was kind of like a defensive maneuver to say, hold on.

Uh,.

No,.

We,.

We already have state of beliefs on this. This is what they are. And that was supposed to end it,.

Right?

That was it.

Uh,.

But it didn't end it.

You would,.

You would hope that would end it,.

But no, it didn't end. The church said,.

Uh,.

They found a, in our church order, they said,.

Well,.

We have the right to an appeal. So about two weeks later they said,.

Well,.

We appealed to sin in next year.

And,.

Uh,.

They tried to put off any sort of discipline in that manner. And then there were just,.

Uh,.

Numerous churches and classes within our denomination that said no sin and got this wrong. And they wrote overtures. That's the process in our denomination. So there are around 22 overtures or so. That said something along the lines of, confessional status was out of line last year.

We can't go that far, whether it's you, we lower it to another level where office bears would have more freedom to disagree or whether we reverse it and say,.

No,.

God blesses same sex marriage. There was kind of the gamut among what, what, what was being written, but that was what synod this year had the opportunity to respond to all these 22 overtures coming from classes.

Uh,.

Some that didn't pass the classes that was just from an individual church or some even from,.

Uh,.

Individual members.

Uh,.

All were on the, all were on the agenda this year.

Is it,.

Is it classy or a class? Is that like a presbytery? It's like a group of churches or a region.

Okay.

Correct.

Gotcha. Yep.

Um,.

Yeah,.

About 10 to 10 to 30 churches depending on where it is.

And okay. Well,.

Let's watch a few of these clips together.

Uh,.

This is the first one.

This, this is,.

Was actually on CNN and you might hear interesting Cooper's voice at the end of.

This. Um,.

Apparently the gentleman you're about to hear his son works for CNN.

Correct. So, uh,.

On father's day, they decided to give a tribute to his father and his,.

Uh,.

In their minds, bold stand, I suppose against the CRC.

Just to give up, put it in line. We had the big discussion on reaffirming confessional status on Wednesday and that came down that yes, we're not moving away from that. So this was Thursday morning that this took place.

Okay.

On behalf of the pain that was caused to many in the LGBT community, um, including my son and the message that was sent for so many people that they're not welcome in the CRC.

Um,.

I will be leaving Senate in protest.

That is what Ryan is thinking about today. This father's day, a father who did something really, really hard to stand up for his son. Happy father's day to Ryan's dad.

Okay.

So this is the, this is the CNN spin on it that,.

Uh,.

This was this bold move.

Uh, so he,.

Does that mean that this pastor has left the denomination or was that just kind of like a, in protest, I'm not going to be part of the meeting anymore.

Correct. The latter. It was stepping down as the delegate.

Um,.

I'm not sure what ramifications might come from. May or may not come from that.

Uh,.

You're not supposed to just walk off,.

But,.

Uh,.

That's, that's what he chose to do in that, in that situation.

And,.

Uh,.

Going forward,.

Uh,.

We don't know yet what that means,.

Uh,.

For his connection to the denomination, but that was what he.

Was he the only one or were there more?

Uh,.

He was the only one that started,.

Uh,.

Thursday morning with that.

And, um,.

Things got ugly Thursday throughout the day.

Uh,.

It's all available on the CRCNA. You go into their live videos and you can watch the whole Thursday afternoon. Debacle that,.

Uh,.

That,.

Uh,.

Unfolded and,.

Um,.

Five or more other,.

Uh, uh,.

Delegates ended up leaving and walking out in protest,.

Uh,.

By the end of the day.

So,.

Okay.

So yeah,.

So we don't have time to watch all of those,.

But,.

Let's watch the, this next one is a,.

Uh,.

A gentleman. I don't know if this individual walked out or not,.

But,.

Uh,.

He's, um, making a speech in favor, or I guess I should say against the CRCs. Stand on,.

Uh,.

Homosexual,.

Uh,.

Homosexuality.

Correct.

So I'm speaking again. I'm Dave Apol from classes, Hackensack speaking against the motion, the parameters of my discussion. First, I think what we keep hearing is that,.

You know,.

We're being, you have to be faithful to the Bible or do pastoral work. And I think that's frankly disrespectful to the people who, after reading the passages, after reading the Bible have come to a different conclusion as to exactly what it means.

It is true that Senate had made a decision about this, but you know, a good number of people did not believe that the interpretation given by the Senate was correct. Therefore Senate made a decision and said, this is how we're going to interpret that.

And you're bound by that interpretation. And our church order,.

Uh,.

Addresses that it says I'm bound by the language of the confession itself and not by interpretations of it or pronounce. And if a question arises about what a confession means, we go to the assembly and we have to acquiesce as loyal members of the denomination.

We have to acquiesce in the decision of the M. Assembly. Acquiesce means we will submit to it. We will, and that is and be bound by it. That is exactly what the minority report is saying. We are the,.

The, the,.

The advice given from the assembly is settled and binding and we're bound by it, but it does, but we are not bound.

One,.

One person said, you know,.

When,.

Well guys,.

You, you,.

The traditional position won the day last time and now we're bound by that. But I had, I had a law, a boss once who you can never end a conversation with him because when I went, when you talk to him about something and you gave him your advice and you gave him your opinion and he disagreed with your opinion instead of being able to say your call boss, you said he wouldn't let you leave the office until you agreed that you had been wrong and nothing ever got done.

There's a good number of the people who had a different opinion. You want your conclusion is binding. We will follow it, but it is frankly unfair, unkind, unhelpful to say not only do you have to follow the opinion that is not your own, you have to say you were wrong.

Your conscious is bound. You have to have an epiphany now that cleans your conscience from all the reasons why you thought you were right and, and erase that from your mind and admit you were wrong. That is not what our confession.

Thank you, David. Okay.

So I'm as an outsider, I definitely need some interpretive work on this. So it sounds like what he's saying is that,.

Hey,.

We can stay in the denomination. If we disagreed with that decision, we can keep believing that homosexual marriage is perfectly fine.

Uh,.

We're, we're,.

I guess, going to follow because we have to follow the, the rules of the denomination. And so I don't know what that would entail, but we can't contradict that somehow.

But,.

But at the same time, there's this space, I guess, for us to operate where we can still hold the conviction that contradicts the denominations view. What in the world is he talking about?

That was in a discussion on Wednesday dealing with this idea. Is this, does it have confessional status? Are all office bearers held to it?

In our, in our,.

We have a covenant of office bearers and it says, not only will I believe these things, but I'm,.

Uh,.

I'm on,.

I'm bound to teach and promote these things as well. And so by saying covenantal,.

Uh,.

Covenant status, we're saying this is who we are as the denomination. And we have to go along with it. What the other side was arguing for this year, because I think it was the biggest reach they could try and hope to get was language of settled in binding, which means,.

Well,.

The denomination said it. So publicly, that's what we have to do. I don't have to actually believe it in my heart. I don't have to actually promote it. I just have to kind of follow the rules. And so that is what he was arguing for it.

Do we really have to say and agree that this is what God's word teaches or is it all right? As long as we don't go in,.

Uh,.

You know,.

Ordained the deacon in the same sex marriage, as they want to call it. As long as we play by the rules publicly, can we still, still disagree and go our own way in every other way?

So,.

So that, that was the argument that was being had.

I just don't know what that looks like. Like if you're a pastor in a denomination, some comes to you and says,.

Hey,.

I want to marry my boyfriend.

And he,.

And that it's a guy,.

Uh,.

And you're some, let's say the pastor thinks that that's perfectly fine, but the denomination doesn't, what does the pastor do? I would think the pastor couldn't honor that. The pastor would be forced to say,.

Well,.

I can't marry you.

But so,.

So I don't know what advantage it would give him to say, we don't agree.

Okay.

You don't agree. But like, what does that practically change anything? I guess that's my question.

I don't know how much it changes other than it gives space for continued opposition that he could lessen, encourage in your scenario and say,.

Oh,.

That's great.

And,.

And God's will be God's blessing be upon you. I just can't do it publicly until we get things straightened out in the denomination.

Okay.

And we're saying,.

No,.

This isn't something that you can just continue to advocate,.

Uh,.

Against and work against and try and overthrow. This is who we are. And this is where we're going to stand.

So you basically have some pastors who don't agree, but they're going to keep it quiet and they're still in the denomination and they can operate behind the scenes to try to,.

Uh,.

Get things turned around. I think that's, that's what's happened in other places and other denominations. I'm guessing that's the same operation tactic here.

Right. Kind of.

Yep.

To take the moral high ground and to say,.

Well,.

You're forcing our consciences or something.

I mean,.

It's,.

I don't know.

It's just,.

You wouldn't do that on like any other issue,.

Would you?

You'd be like,.

Well,.

There's people here. Don't agree that Christ is Lord, or is he, he's God. We think he's just a human, but,.

Uh,.

You know,.

It just,.

You wouldn't have that on those issues, but for some reason on this issue,.

Um,.

They want to downgrade it to this conscience, I guess,.

Element.

All right.

So,.

Um,.

So I think the next video, maybe we'll skip this one for the sake of time, unless you want to,.

Um,.

See here.

Uh,.

It was just a gentleman who was basically making a good point,.

Uh,.

That this will suck all the, attention from the denomination where it should be, which is on the gospel and, and you know, matters of discipleship and so forth. And he says,.

Hey,.

We keep arguing over this same sex marriage stuff.

And, uh, it's,.

It's not good for them. And it was making a fairly good point.

Um,.

So this is the, this is the youth.

Uh,.

I guess. Explain to me what, what the youth organization is. The CRC has a youth group. Or,.

Well,.

It's, uh,.

At synod,.

Um,.

A number of years ago, they wanted representation from different voices in the room. And so they set up,.

Uh,.

Women advisors until there were enough women delegates since,.

Uh,.

The Christian reform church ordains women office bearers. And so they, they had women advisors that they haven't had recently. They have ethnic advisors that,.

I mean,.

Once again, have the opportunity to speak, but they don't have voting privileges and then they have young adult representatives. And so this guy is one of the young adult representatives. And of course, one of the arguments that we were hearing multiple times from the other side is,.

No,.

What the youth will leave the denomination. If we, if we don't just bless a same sex marriage, the way that the culture is and that we're driving the kids of the denomination all the way. And so when the young people got up, most of them spoke in a different, very different way.

Yeah.

And that's fascinating. Let's play the clip and then we'll talk about it.

Among my peers, I have this opportunity to speak into some of the biggest decisions today.

Um,.

As a,.

As a young adult myself, when I read this,.

I want,.

I don't know if I can endorse, but I like this overture or this recommendation. I should say, sorry. I like this for many reasons.

Uh,.

And if I could start with a personal anecdote and take too long,.

Uh,.

I personally have endured the church discipline process.

Uh,.

It wasn't on similar issues like this. And one of the struggles was feeling trapped and incapable of really changing my life and my beliefs to be redeemed in behavior.

What,.

What this does, in my opinion is, is first of all, it doesn't speak to an immediate sudden change from today. There is time. It's not specified here, although it's been assumed. Once today decisions happen.

Then it starts. There is time. If I'm understanding this correctly,.

I think I am.

And what this does is it speaks to two things. It speaks to the transformative responsibility of Christ's church as instituted by his spirit. It speaks to the long suffering of Jesus Christ for the elect.

It speaks to the endurance on the cross, the pain that we also go through. And secondly, it speaks to the profound power of the gospel or it can bring healing anywhere that we could find nowhere else.

I believe this recommendation brings hope to those struggling in darkness. This brings hope of life that no longer looks as broken as before. And it's only found in the gospel. And I think we can all agree on that.

And with this motion, the Christian Reformed Church of North America proclaims its belief in the power of the spirit at work in us, that it's more than mental assent, but a change of heart and posture towards the one true God.

And there really is hope. And I want to, this is my last exhortation, I suppose. Similar sentiment was given by Paul in first Corinthians six, verse nine to 11. Or do you not know, and this is the bad news comes first,.

Right?

We have the law and then we have grace as the Heidelberg catechism is laid out. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,.

Nor thieves,.

Nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. The thought doesn't end there. Everyone. Such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.

And I hope that speaks to whoever's on the fence. Do we believe in the transformative power of the gospel or not? Thank you.

All right.

So that was a young person representing the young people in the denomination and making the case that to adopt a inclusion or normalization of homosexuality would be a contradiction to the power of the spirit and the power of Christ.

And and that was a very powerful.

I mean,.

He seems like he really believes what he's saying. He's it's just interesting to me. I'm wondering, I think a lot of people are probably wondering. I mean, does he represent the youth in the denomination?

Do they all feel that way? I don't know how he became the spokesman.

Yeah.

Young adult advisors are recommended by a council. One of our 1000 churches, they found a young man that was willing to go. And so they suggested him in the denomination, did a little vetting and said,.

Sure,.

He can come in and speak into this issue. So so that's how he got there.

And yeah,.

What what we see, what what was being argued at that time was. Let's put a pause on implementation. It's confessional status, but let's take three years. Let's take five years. Let's give everybody time to just figure it out.