Dead Men Walking Podcast LIVE from Fight Laugh Feast: Joel Webbon

I've listened. All right, Joel once you throw some ears on there test that mic for me. Make sure we don't have you muted Facebook viewers. Thanks for joining us. Obviously anything you see here on Facebook Tuesday to get uploaded to the podcast most likely tonight.

We're running about 24 hours behind so yesterday's stuff today today's stuff probably tonight or tomorrow. That anywhere you get your pods were on Apple and Spotify and Google podcast and jeez. The list goes on and on overcaster and tuned in and I I don't know all of them.

Just go find it. We're also on cassette. Yep. We just converted all our stuff to 8-track so. For any of you out there in a 71 Roadrunner, we have you covered. Are we. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, we'll cut it up all in post man.

We got Joel. Yeah. Introduction there. I always Jason. I don't want to get up on that Mike. Yeah, man, all right, my name is Joel Webb and I pastor a church called the response Church. San Diego, California.

Also the president of right response ministries and at the end of this year Lord willing I'm leading a team of about 20 adults. We're gonna be moving from the Soviet state of California to Texas. Texas yeah, and Lord willing into this year.

We'll be moving to Texas to. Our endeavor would be to plant a new church cover the Bible Church. So I'm gonna hand the response Church over to one of my elders and he's gonna take the reins. The church will continue.

Excited about that. That's awesome. Where that's in San Diego, right? Yeah, San Diego. Yeah. Okay. Yep.

The Essential Nature of the Church

We're in San Diego and as you guys know, I mean everywhere. 2020 has been an interesting year to say the least sure where you're at, but exactly some places are a little Others. I think it's one of those places.

So what's on your heart right now man, like what what's the Lord impressing on you? Yeah, we're here viewers and listeners. We're here at fight left feast right now, right? So we're live here in between the breaks.

We're just talking to some people. We've had some great men of God sit down at the table with us. We have another one here and Joel so We're just getting through this first half of the second day. I guess yesterday was the first day.

It was just an evening session. We're halfway through we're in a little break and we want to talk to you. Just because I've seen you online. I've seen you in debates. I think we were talking before we jumped on with the bait.

Takes a lot to get up there and debate and have confidence in your position guys on remnant a little bit. So so yeah, let's go what's going on in your spirit in your in your thoughts right now. Yeah, so 2020 again a heck of a year, but it's been really helpful for me and every other pastor I feel like around the world and especially in The USA in regards to just really having to think theologically through the idea of the essential nature of the church.

Yeah, and making that argument as a pastor, you know, why we're not gonna live stream. Hmm, you know why we're not gonna you know, so we we just we took a pause for for a few weeks. So I think we skipped four Lord's Days.

Okay, and then we hopped back on it. Our first, you know service in person was April 26. Okay, and so that was you know, technically an illegal church service. According to our governor, but not according to Scripture or exactly the United States Constitution or the California Constitution or any other, you know civil magistrate?

Yeah, so it was it was just really helpful to I think Doug said like this. He said every pastor is trying to learn in 10 minutes what we should have studied carefully over the last 10 years. Oh, that's a good good way to say it.

Yeah, so so understanding Romans 13 understanding civil disobedience. Understanding that Romans 13 wasn't just written to citizens, but but in a very large sense. It was written to those who are in positions of civil authority and so they'll begin to recognize that my governor and our mayor that they were actually Disobeying God's clear instructions in Romans 13.

They were the ones who were actually Rebelling against a higher civil magistrate because the highest civil magistrate in our our land by design is not a human official. But namely a document namely the you know, the Constitution and so so for us to understand Romans 13.

But then also just to understand the essential nature of the church and this is kind of the way that I Kind of have come to present it to members of my congregation and other pastors that the Lord's used me to influence is I think a lot of Christians the reason why they were so quick to fold on church being essential, right?

Yes, our secular state, you know, of course, they're gonna say we're not essential boy. Did we fold didn't we? Yeah, we fold. Yeah, we thought it's right. So abortions essential weeds essential, you know, but the church is not essential.

Right, and so in Christians agreed like in a mass level Christians were like, yeah. Yeah, the church is not essential now to be fair to the Christian who might have had that kind of thought process I think that some of the ways they were thinking about it was they were saying.

All right Christ is essential. Yeah. Christianity is essential my relationship with God. My Christian life is essential, but church is not Essential or they would change church and it will church, you know, it's um, it's not a building.

It's the people, right? And so what I would say is like, okay. Yeah church is definitely not a building. It is the people but it's not just the people so church is the people and it's also not a building but a gathering.

Yes, it fell easy. Oh, right. Please it isn't an assembly. There's a real sense in which although the church is the people of God. Yeah at the same time if the people of God are not gathering. There is a sense in which the church is ceasing to be the church absolutely because it can't be less than the people but biblically.

It is more. Yeah, it is the people win a symbol. There is the church scattered that we remain the adopted beloved sons of God through union with Christ. By grace through faith in Christ, and so we are always the church in that sense.

But but there's a special sense in which we become the church on the Lord's Day when we gather together. When and it's all word centric so that those ordinary means of grace regular principle worship.

It's word preached word prayed word saying like we've been doing at the conference singing songs. Absolutely, and then it's also the word seen as it were seen in the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Those are the only images that have been prescribed to us by Scripture in which there's a sense in which we see the word. But it's all word centric. It's the word preached prayed saying and seen and and this is all done in the context of the Lord's Day when we come together.

And there's a symbol and if we're missing that then there's a very real sense in which the church. It doesn't entirely cease because the people of God even when scattered are the church. But there is a sense in which we are not the church.

And so what I wanted to help people see is all right first let's define church like that, right? Secondly the church is essential that namely the gathering the Ecclesia the assembly is essential because it's unique.

So that's my big line, so I'll break it down real quick in the night. Let's get you guys thought yeah, but what I mean by that is churches essential namely church as Ecclesia gathering. It's essential because it's unique and what I mean by that.

And I think this is where Christians missed it and even where I just to be vulnerable and confess as a pastor. My people missed this because I missed it. I didn't I didn't preach this like I should have because I don't think I got it quite like I should write so when I say Church is essential because church is unique what I'm saying is.

Something happens on the Lord's Day when the Saints gather together for the ordinary means of grace to be administered. Yep, that does not happen. Certainly does not happen at least in the same way in the same and our private practices of piety 100 right and so and so revelation one was actually really helpful for me so revelation one is.

Where all of a sudden your revelation kicks off one two a little bit of three where we have the letters to the seven churches. And we have this picture. That the church is like a lampstand right and and when the lampstand is lit.

We could say as it were and we're drawing out some implications here of the text. But there's the seven churches, and I don't think that this is just particular. So looking at some trusted theologians and commentaries guys of old with you know all mill a lot of them post mill eschatology.

They would say that yeah. This has been fulfilled revelation one and two but but it gives us a picture a spiritual picture of what takes place in the church. That's relevant not just for these seven churches listed in revelation one and two but for any true gospel preaching church.

The church is a lampstand when the people gather on the Lord's Day. It's as though the lampstand is now lit. When the the lampstand is lit gets lit. Then Christ is now walking amidst the lampstand. So there's a sense in which Christ who is always present by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Spirit.

Christ is now present when the church gathers when the lampstand is lit in a particular way. Yeah in a unique way, and what does Christ now do it says that Christ holds the angel right? So there's the lampstand for each of these seven churches and Christ says if a church ultimately is unfaithful eventually he'll remove their lampstand.

And so that's the light of the gospel the light of the truth. And so any true orthodox gospel preaching church is like a lampstand when they gather together in a symbol. It is lit as it's lit. Christ is uniquely present.

Christ who is always present by virtue the indwelling Spirit is now uniquely present and he holds the angel now. This is cool. A lot of guys some old-school guys say the angel is actually the gospel minister.

So each church has a pastor and Christ is holding that gospel minister in Christ. Right hand is what Revelation 1 says and as the minister opens his mouth namely to preach the words. Yeah, not only does the angel the gospel minister open his mouth while being held in the right hand of Christ.

But now as he preaches Christ's own mouth opens and a sword begins to proceed from the mouth of Christ. Namely the Logos the word Sharp come on pretty Lord and and then I take that I look at that with you know Jesus being tempted in the wilderness man shall not live by bread alone, right?

We're saying grocery stores bread foods essential. But Jesus says man shall not live by bread alone by every word and there is a word brothers. There's a word that proceeds from the mouth of Christ on the Lord's Day when the minister Preaches and the Saints are gathered and that does not word doesn't happen with desiring God on YouTube, right?

Yeah, it doesn't happen. Even with the guys watching. Yeah, this is good. But this is not that right and so there's a real thing a real word. And so I think Christians are like well man shall not live by bread alone.

But by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God, we have the scripture. I'm reading with my family and in my private practices of piety Monday through Monday through Sunday. I'm doing that. So even if church is closed down even if the civil magistrates day We can't gather together.

I'm still getting a word that proceeds from the mouth of God and I guess what I want to write. But there is another word not another meaning in terms of content. It's not any different in terms of its content.

But in a spiritual sense, there is a heightened word another word which proceeds from the mouth of God and that is the word Preached when Christ is present in a unique way that happens in no other earthly context.

But the gathered assembly of the church and we need that word to live by as well. And so my whole thing that I think the Lord Helped me understand and wrestle through and just for my own people and then I did some writing on it and helping some other Christians and pastors.

Understand is everybody was you know, the guys who are on our side taking stands guys like MacArthur. God bless them forever. Yeah, all these guys. They're they're all saying church is essential. But I think the disconnect is I think in order to convince our people really convince them.

Not that it's just a nice courageous thing to say church is essential but to convince them theologically that that's actually true. We have to say church is essential because church is unique. Yes. And church is unique because church again using the word in the Ecclesia assembly fashion something unique happens in that context.

It does not happen in your home Bible study. Absolutely. That's that's my fit in and I and I 100 agree with it. I think it was very well. That's very well thought out and explained. I think the issue is is you have the majority of Christian Church, okay I'm gonna use some air quotes there because sometimes people say they're a Christian with their lips.

Maybe not with their actions thoughts or whatever. They don't understand what you just said when they when you hear church you hear coffee in the lobby. My my worship rock band for 15 minutes my 20 minutes.

You know set up the TED talk my TED talk. Thank you. And then then back home in time for fog. And so so so fog machine with a like like the swirling mist hand sanitizer in there. So when it's yeah, so what it's defined that way most Christians would say.

Yeah, I don't know if church is essential because I can do all of that right digitally and from my home. Certainly the secular world isn't gonna say that's essential right? So I think you're exactly right.

You're you're making the definition of what church is we got to get specific and that revelation one. It's good. I was some straight fire creature in the hand of God sword coming out of his mouth delivering it to the to the assembly and You know, you mean even look at Hebrews.

He says do not neglect each other and even more so as the day of reckoning. More urgent to gather not less not less now I'm with you. So Hebrews what I like about Hebrews 1025. That's what you're getting at.

Yeah, and I bear it was paraphrased a lot. No, no, it's good. So so let me let me get my Bible on the phone.

I should. Yeah, we go get that sword.

Hebrews 10 and 3: The Call to Gather and Persevere

Hebrews 10, I think awesome cross-reference that uh that I think it's been helpful for me and some other guys. Cross-referencing Hebrews 10 with Hebrews 3. All right, so Hebrews 10, let's get the text real quick.

So this is Hebrews 1025. So we've heard this a lot. You just mentioned it. Yep this is 25 what version are we gonna be reading from? Yes. Let's back up. Back up and look at verse 24 super helpful. So Hebrews 10 24 and 25 and let us consider how to stir one another to love and good works.

All right, and then it says not neglecting to meet together or to gather as is the habit of some but encouraging one another. And all the more as you see the day so you're saying wait. Are you saying that that the word is saying gathering is essential to helping produce good works?

And that's right. That's right a minute.

Amen, come on up. Did you put that in context though?

Look at verse 24. You're absolutely you guys are absolutely right because it's like what what what the Apostle or the author to the Hebrews? I think it's Paul, but the author to the Hebrews what he's saying in verse 25 is that not neglecting to gather is Precisely one of the ways and I would argue the fact that he takes time to explicitly mention it would to me indicate is one Of the chief ways one of the primary ways that we consider how to stir.

To love and good works now here it gets even even better. So now let's cross-reference now. We're ready for Hebrews 3. Okay Hebrews 3. Let me find it. I think it's 10 and 11. No 12 12 and 13. Okay, take care brothers less there be now brothers.

This is what you're getting at the professing Christian. Yeah, he's saying brothers that doesn't mean that he has some kind of like super sense that these people are regenerate. He can see an e written on there.

Yeah, they're like, yeah, that's not what he's saying. He's calling them brothers because these are people who have been they've been baptized. They're in they've been welcomed into church membership.

They're a part of the visible church now at the end of the day. They could be apostates they could you know, first John chapter 2 they went out from us, you know. Because they were never one of us. So he's saying brothers.

This doesn't mean that they're regenerate in the in the objective sense. It simply means that they're a part of the visible church. They've made a credible profession of faith. They've been baptized and we'll see right and we'll see right?

Yeah, right. So I so verse 12 Hebrews 3 verse 12 take care brothers professing Christians in the visible church members in the church. Lest there be in any of you right meaning the potential is that you could have had an empty profession.

I think you could lose your salvation. But you might prove by your life and doctrine that you never had it to begin with right? Let's take care brothers. Lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart which would do what it would lead you to fall away from the living God that is it would lead you to go apostate.

Yeah, it would lead you not to lose your salvation but to leave the church and prove that you never had it to begin with now verse 13, but Exhort one another some translations literally say stir up, right?

So back to Hebrews 10 24 Exhort one another every day as long as it is called today that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. So here's the train of logic right Hebrews 10 25. Don't neglect gathering.

Why Hebrews 10 24? It's one of the primary ways that we stir one another up to love and good works now Hebrews 3 verse 13 in stirring one another up to love and good works is one of the primary ways that we defend against Hebrews 3 verse 12 an unbelieving evil heart that would cause us to Fall away from the living God so by gathering by that logic the church continuing to gather is one of the primary ways that God has Given to us to preserve the soul so our state came in and said by not gathering you can preserve the flesh.

But the word says that by gathering you can preserve the soul and Christians Just fold it right and said the flesh matters more than the soul now. That doesn't mean there are churches essential in any circumstance.

So you probably heard Doug and Jared and other guys saying like well If there's a tsunami coming and and we're being told hey if we gather this Sunday tsunami is gonna hit 10 a .m. Yeah, everybody here if you don't get out of Dodge, but that's not what was happening.

That's not what was happening March. That's right. So the way I look at is this it's the data of like how serious of a threat physical threat is the virus versus? the data right a namely the Word of God the the the Infallible Inherent data and and how dangerous is neglecting the gathering to the soul and so basically it's like this if everyone's gonna physically die.

And in order to save every single life, we just need to miss one Lord's Day. Let's miss one Lord's Day right, but if we're being told and the data keeps coming in lower and lower and lower. Yeah, that virtually no one's gonna die or very few people 11 ,000.

That's right, it actually died from Kovac rather than a motorcycle accident with Kovac right so 11 ,000 out of 350 million people if that's the data that we're getting at this point. Yeah, and we're saying this is the threat to the body and over here in order to avoid this threat.

You're not talking about missing one Lord's Day. You're talking about missing six months, right? Oh in California except like all the way until 2021. That's right. Yeah, so if we're talking about Tsunamis coming you miss one Lord's Day, right and and gathering is the way we preserve the soul.

So the soul is gonna take a hit by missing one Lord's Day, but you're gonna save every single physical body. Let's do it. Yeah, right, but if you're talking about eleven thousand or three hundred fifty million over the last six months.

Versus missing not one Lord's Day, but 20 30 40 50 then then just logically as ministers as Christians. We got to look at that. We got to say the threat to the soul is larger than the threat to the flesh.

And if they were equal, we got to go with the soul. Absolutely, you know, and also what started happening I don't know. I I mean, I'm a young I'm a young guy. Joel, you know, I'm only 39. But uh, but yeah, I mean I mean about about 10 -15 years ago I started noticing that people start saying I don't need to go to church, right?

I don't need to go on Sunday I can just wake up whenever I want get in my Bible, you know. And and then you start asking. Okay. Well, what'd you study this week? What is it? But it's like, you know, like yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Quick. No, I prayed. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, cool. Cool, but that you know, it's like, okay. But yeah, I mean, I think I think that has just been the mustard seed of this moment. You know the the the leaven working through the dough, you know.

It's like all of a sudden now a lot of people are just saying that they're a Christian, right? And they're just like yeah, I don't need to go to church because I have Jesus I have been my brother. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. He's right in my smartphone, you know, and that's where that's what I'm trying to say.

Christ's Unique Presence in the Local Church

Yeah, it's essential because it's unique. Jesus is with you at home if you're a regenerate Christian if you're a generate portion you have the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit. Yes, because you have the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit He exudes the spirit of the risen Christ in you and you're not saying anything against personal time one-on-one, right?

It's one and yes, yep, right exactly. Yeah. So we're saying Jesus is present with every believer by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit. The spirit of the risen Christ is present with every believer.

Hmm, but Christ is present in a particular way, right? So revelation one I gave you guys that but another one that would be great is just Matthew 18, right? We use it for church discipline all the time.

But it's this idea of you know. You know. If your brother sins against you go tell him his fault. If he listens you've won him over. If not then bring one or two With you so that the testimony may be established in the presence of two or three witnesses.

That's kind of fallback. It's a shout out to the Mosaic. Yeah, you know the Mosaic law that we actually care about do justice.

That's right, we cross examine. I was judged not.

One or two now so two or three witnesses and then if he still doesn't listen then we tell it to the church. Absolutely, if he doesn't listen to the church, then we hand him over right we treat him as a tax collector a Gentile.

That's an outsider. We no longer refer to him as a brother in Christ. Now he may be and the Lord may use this church discipline if he is a brother in Christ to bring him unto repentance. Yeah. Or he could be an unbeliever who now the Lord's gonna use this at the bottom of his rope.

To save him for the very first time or it could be that he was never a brother in Christ. And he's actually not among the elect and he's never coming back. Yeah, that could be the case, but here's the point Jesus follows that up.

This is Matthew 18. He follows it up and he says for I tell you whatever you bind in heaven will be bound on earth. Right, or I'm sorry, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven.

Right, and that's the same language Matthew 18 that Jesus previously now. He's using church now now previously Matthew 16. This is when Peter, you know, who do you say that I am? You're the Christ the son of a blessed are you Simon of Jonah flesh and blood has not revealed this to you.

But my father who's in heaven and I tell you your name shall be Peter. You shall be the rock or the pebble, you know. And my church on wheels on which my church will be built and then he says I give you the keys in the same exact Language Matthew 16 to Matthew 18, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. And now what Jesus is doing. He's giving to the Apostles. So I don't think it's just Peter. I think Peter is representative of the Apostles. He's saying I'm giving you Ecclesiastical spiritual authority.

I'm giving you the keys of the kingdom. That's Matthew 16 now Matthew 18. He's saying that same authority that I'm giving to the Apostles. Yeah, that same authority will be also given to the church and then in Matthew 18 He finishes up by saying you've got these these keys of the kingdom binding and loosing that kind of authority and then boom here comes The verse that we always take out of context Jesus says for wherever two or three are gathered.

Yeah, I am Present I am there in their midst now. We take that to say wherever two or three Christian college students are in their hallway of the door. We did a whole podcast brothers singing kumbaya with a jimbe and an ovation, you know.

Right, then Jesus is no what what what that's saying is Jesus is present in a particular way, right? Because why say that why say that Matthew 18 wherever two or three are gathered for not for an omnipresent God.

Exactly, so he's present uniquely right uniquely uniquely and what's the context? It's not just two or three professing Christians together because he just got done talking about the church. So according to Jesus what he's telling us is that two or three baptized believers who have made a credible profession of faith actually?

Constitutes in covenant local church wherever a local church is gathered Christ is present and who is always present. But now he's present in a particular way in a particular. That's right. So if you thought I was wacky with Revelation 1, I'm just throwing I'm just saying there's more text that we can go.

Speaking a unique presence of Christ that belongs only in the assembly. Yeah of the local church, you know this right here during this festival Conference whichever one you want to say, you know. How awesome it has been to be around other believers and have these conversations like we're having right now.

Absolutely, you know, I mean this is this is just pumping me up just to even be around people that are actually thinking about these Things, you know because I mean at times we're wrestling, you know in our community or by ourselves or however.

But to be around the body and say hey, how are you handling the presidential debate? No, I'm joking. You know, how are you handling the kovat situation? How are you handling? You know, you're you're California getting shut down, you know, and it's like it's like I mean MacArthur's doing this thing.

But you're also doing this thing. You don't have the publicity, you know, but it's it's like you were out there like really challenging.

Yeah, there's a lot of good guys small guys like me who are fighting. Yeah, exactly and that's awesome. And I'm so glad you're here.

You know talking about this right now because a lot of people need to be praying for you guys out there for sure. Even in the move, you know to Texas I mean we but we're a community of believers and we need to be have each other's back absolutely praying for each other.

Absolutely, and just to put a bookend on what you just said Joel to With when you read that verse in context and explain it the way you just explained an exegetic the way you just did it goes from the erroneous version of Couple people are praying and Jesus just creepily walks up behind say I'm here to guys I'm in your midst just let you know to the preciousness of him saying there's there's an assembly if only two or three That's right are gathered.

I show up in a unique way and there's something special and your word unique I love that you're using that word Unique and and I should I show up in that way within the assembly within that congregation.

That's right. And and church is essential because a powerful thing. Yeah, not not not despite. No, it's one in the same point church is essential because church is unique. What's unique about it? Christ is uniquely present if I can sum it up.

That's that's the long and short of it church is essential because church is unique church is unique because Christ Only at church is uniquely present beautiful. Yeah. Well, man, I didn't know we were gonna get a preaching today.

But yeah, man Why don't you tell people listening people watching where they can find out about you if you got anything books or anything like that? Just let them know so they can tell so right response ministries calm.

So right response ministries calm I pastor currently the response church, San Diego. I'm gonna be handing that over to some faithful elders. They're gonna continue to carry the baton in San Diego the response church right response ministries.

Think think. Think Bethlehem Baptist desiring God think grace community church grace to you now micro level. Then you got Joel Evans so the response church right response ministries calm or check out right response ministries our YouTube channel and.

And I'm gonna be taking that with me. So I'm still gonna be doing podcasts.

Online sermons, don't you have articles long to know? No training program. You're not you're gonna do that.

Okay. No, we so we have like I mean, we've got a lot of online Material, but we don't have a official in gotcha institution. Yeah, okay, so right response ministries calm the new church Lord willing 2021 in Hutto, Texas.

Hutto, Texas 45 minutes north of Austin just close enough to make a difference just far enough to live my life. There you go safety. But Hutto, Texas 2021 the goal is to plant Covenant Bible Church. Awesome.

So I'll continue to minister with right response ministries, but I always want to. I'm a church man. So I want to yeah, sir a church. Thank you guys for let me Joel. Thank you so much for coming on and everyone listening or watching.

Make sure you check him out and we do appreciate you coming on here and giving us that little mini sermon.

That was fire brother. Yeah, brother. Good to say here comes Durbin. Here we go. Joe. I've been everybody. Thank you. Thanks, thanks for the book too, yeah, you appreciate it man, definitely. Oh.