Dead Men Walking Podcast LIVE from Fight Laugh Feast: Joel Webbon

Dead Men Walking

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Joel, why don't you throw some ears on there test that mic for me Make sure we don't have you muted

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Are we yeah, let's go. Yeah, we'll cut it up all in post man. We got Joel. Yeah Introduction there

01:06

I always Jason I don't want to get up on that Mike Yeah, man, all right, my name is

01:12

Joel Webb and I pastor a church called the response Church San Diego, California Also the president of right response ministries and at the end of this year

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Lord willing I'm leading a team of about 20 adults We're gonna be moving from the Soviet state of California to to,

01:29

Texas Texas yeah, and Lord willing into this year. We'll be moving to Texas to Our endeavor would be to plant a new church cover the

01:37

Bible Church So I'm gonna hand the response Church over to one of my elders and he's gonna take the reins

01:43

The church will continue Excited about that. That's awesome. We're that's in San Diego, right?

01:49

Yeah, San Diego. Yeah. Okay. Yep We're in San Diego. And as you guys know, I mean everywhere 2020 has been an interesting year to say the least sure where you're at, but exactly some places are a little

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Others I think it's one of those places So what's on your heart right now man, like what what's the

02:07

Lord impressing on you? Yeah, we're here viewers and listeners We're here at fight left feast right now, right? So we're live here in between the breaks.

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We're just talking to some people We've had some great men of God sit down at the table with us. We have another one here and Joel so We're just getting through this first half of the second day.

02:24

I guess yesterday was the first day It was just an evening session. We're halfway through we're in a little break and we want to talk to you

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Just because I've seen you online. I've seen you in debates. I think we were talking before we jumped on with the bait

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Takes a lot to get up there and debate and have confidence in your position guys on remnant a little bit

02:52

So so yeah, let's go what's going on in your spirit in your in your thoughts right now Yeah, so 2020 again a heck of a year, but it's been really helpful for me and every other pastor

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I feel like around the world and especially in The USA in regards to just really having to think theologically through the idea of the essential nature of the church

03:12

Yeah, and making that argument as a pastor, you know, why we're not gonna live stream Hmm, you know why we're not gonna you know, so we we just we took a pause for for a few weeks

03:23

So I think we skipped four Lord's Days. Okay, and then we hop back on it Our first, you know service in person was

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April 26. Okay, and so that was you know, technically an illegal church service According to our governor, but not according to Scripture or exactly

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United States Constitution or the California Constitution or any other, you know civil magistrate?

03:44

Yeah, so it was it was just really helpful to I think Doug said like this He said every pastors trying to learn in 10 minutes what we should have studied carefully over the last 10 years

03:53

Oh, that's a good good way to say it. Yeah, so so understanding Romans 13 understanding civil disobedience

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Understanding that Romans 13 wasn't just written to citizens, but but in a very large sense.

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It was written to those who are in positions of civil authority and so to begin to recognize that my governor and our mayor that they were actually

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Disobeying God's clear instructions in Romans 13 They were the ones who were actually Rebelling against a higher civil magistrate because the highest civil magistrate in our our land by design is not a human official

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But namely a document namely the you know, the Constitution and so so for us to understand

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Romans 13 But then also just to understand the essential nature of the church and this is kind of the way that I Kind of have come to present it to members of my congregation and other pastors that the

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Lord's used me to influence is I think a lot of Christians the reason why they were so quick to fold on church being essential, right?

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Yes, our secular state, you know, of course, they're gonna say we're not essential boy. Did we fold didn't we?

04:55

Yeah, we fold Right, so abortions essential weeds essential, you know, but the church is not essential

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Right, and so in Christians agreed like in a mass level Christians were like, yeah

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Yeah, the church is not essential now to be fair to the Christian who might have had that kind of thought process

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I think that some of the ways they were thinking about it was they were saying. All right Christ is essential.

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Yeah Christianity is essential my relationship with God. My Christian life is essential, but church is not

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Essential or they would change church and it will church, you know, it's um, it's not a building.

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It's the people, right? And so what I would say is like, okay. Yeah church is definitely not a building It is the people but it's not just the people so church is the people and it's also not a building but a gathering

05:43

Yes, it fell easy. Oh, right, please. It isn't an assembly There's a real sense in which although the church is the people of God Yeah at the same time if the people of God are not gathering

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There's a sense in which the church is ceasing to be the church absolutely because it can't be less than the people but biblically it

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Is more yeah, it is the people when a symbol there is the church scattered that we remain the adopted beloved sons of God Through union with Christ by grace through faith in Christ And so we are always the church in that sense

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But but there's a special sense in which we become the church on the Lord's Day when we gather together

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When and it's all word centric so that those ordinary means of grace regular principle worship

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It's word preached word prayed word saying like we've been doing at the conference singing psalms

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Absolutely, and then it's also the word seen as it were seen in the sacraments of baptism and the

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Lord's Supper Those are the only images that have been prescribed to us by Scripture in which there's a sense in which we see the word

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But it's all word centric It's the word preached prayed saying and seen and and this is all done in the context of the

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Lord's Day when we come together And there's a symbol and if we're missing that then there's a very real sense in which the church

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It doesn't entirely cease because the people of God even when scattered are the church But there is a sense in which we are not the church

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And so what I wanted to help people see is all right first, let's define church like that, right? Secondly the church is essential that namely the gathering the

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Ecclesia the assembly is essential because it's unique So that's my big line. So I'll break it down real quick in the night

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Let's get you guys thought yeah, but what I mean by that is churches essential namely church as Ecclesia gathering

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It's essential because it's unique and what I mean by that And I think this is where Christians missed it and even where I just to be vulnerable and confess as your pastor

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My people missed this because I missed it I didn't I didn't preach this like I should have because I don't think

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I got it quite like I should write So when I say church is essential because church is unique What I'm saying is something happens on the

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Lord's Day when the Saints gather together for the ordinary means of grace to be administered Yep, that does not happen

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Certainly does not happen at least in the same way in the same and our private practices of piety 100 % right and so and so revelation one was actually really helpful for me so revelation one is

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Where all of a sudden your revelation kicks off one two a little bit of three where we have the letters to the seven churches

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And we have this picture That the church is like a lamp stand Right and and when the lamp stand is lit we could say as it were and we're drawing out some implications here of the text

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But there's the seven churches, and I don't think that this is just particular So looking at some trusted theologians and commentaries guys of old with you know all mill a lot of them post mill eschatology

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They would say that yeah This has been fulfilled revelation one and two but but it gives us a picture a spiritual picture of what takes place in the church

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That's relevant not just for these seven churches listed in Revelation one and two But for any true gospel preaching church the church is a lampstand when the people gather on the

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Lord's Day It's as though the lampstand is now lit When the the lampstand is lit gets lit

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Then Christ is now walking amidst the lampstand So there's a sense in which

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Christ who is always present by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Spirit Christ is now present when the church gathers when the lampstand is lit in a particular way in a unique way

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And what does Christ now do it says that Christ holds the angel right? So there's the lampstand for each of these seven churches and Christ says if a church ultimately is unfaithful eventually he'll remove their lampstand

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And so that's the light of the gospel the light of the truth And so any true orthodox gospel preaching church is like a lampstand when they gather together in a symbol

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It is lit as it's lit Christ is uniquely present Christ who is always present by virtue the indwelling

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Spirit is now uniquely present and he holds the angel now This is cool. A lot of guys some old -school guys say the angel is actually the gospel minister

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So each church has a pastor and Christ is holding that gospel minister in Christ Right hand is what

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Revelation 1 says and as the minister opens his mouth namely to preach the words

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Not only does the angel the gospel minister open his mouth while being held in the right hand of Christ But now as he preaches

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Christ's own mouth opens and a sword begins to proceed from the mouth of Christ Namely the logos the word

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Sharp come on for sure and and then I take that I look at that with you know Jesus being tempted in the wilderness man shall not live by bread alone, right?

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We're saying grocery stores bread foods essential But Jesus says man shall not live by bread alone by every word and there is a word brothers

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There's a word that proceeds from the mouth of Christ on the Lord's Day when the minister Preaches and the

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Saints are gathered and that does not word doesn't happen with desiring God on YouTube, right? It doesn't happen even with the guys watching

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Good But this is not that right and so there's a real thing a real word

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And so I think Christians are like well man shall not live by bread alone But by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God we have the scripture

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I'm reading with my family and in my private practices of piety Monday through Monday through Sunday.

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I'm doing that so even if church is closed down even if the civil magistrates day We can't gather together

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I'm still getting a word that proceeds from the mouth of God and I guess what I want to write

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But there is another word not another meaning in terms of content It's not any different in terms of its content, but in a spiritual sense

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There is a heightened word another word which proceeds from the mouth of God and that is the word

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Preached when Christ is present in a unique way that happens in no other earthly context

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But the gathered assembly of the church and we need that word to live by as well

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And so my whole thing that I think the Lord Helped me understand and wrestle through and just for my own people and then

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I did some writing on it and helping some other Christians and pastors to Understand is everybody was you know the guys who are on our side taking stands guys like MacArthur God bless them forever

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Yeah, all these guys They're they're all saying church is essential But I think the disconnect is

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I think in order to convince our people really convince them not that it's just a nice Courageous thing to say church is essential but to convince them theologically that that's actually true

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We have to say church is essential because church is unique Yes And church is unique because church again using the word in the

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Ecclesia assembly fashion Something unique happens in that context that does not happen in your home

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Bible study Absolutely, that's that's my fit and I and I 100 % agree with it. I think it was very that's very well thought out and explained

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I think the issue is is you have the majority of Christian church.

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Okay. I'm gonna use some air quotes there because sometimes people say they're a Christian with their lips

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Maybe not with their actions thoughts or whatever They don't understand what you just said when they when you hear church you hear coffee in the lobby my my

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Worship rock band for 15 minutes my 20 minutes, you know, sir,

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Matt the TED talk my TED talk Thank you. And then then back don't you forget the fog machine over there, bro

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Yeah, and so so so fog machine with a like like the swirling mist hand sanitizer in there

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So when it's yeah, so when it's defined that way most Christians would say yeah

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I don't know if church is essential because I can do all of that right digitally in front my home

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Certainly the secular world isn't gonna say that's essential right? So I think you're exactly right

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You're you're making the definition of what church is we got to get specific and that revelation one.

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It's good. I was some straight fire creature in the hand of God sword coming out of his mouth delivering it into the

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Assembly and you know, you mean even look at Hebrews He says do not neglect each other and even more so is the day of reckoning

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More urgent to gather not less not less now. I'm with you. So Hebrews what I like about Hebrews 10 25

14:02

That's what you're getting at. Yeah, and I'm here. It was paraphrased a lot Good. So so let me let me get my

14:08

Bible on the phone. I should yeah, we go get that sword Hebrews 10 I think awesome cross -reference that uh that I think it's been helpful for me and some other guys

14:18

Cross -referencing Hebrews 10 with Hebrews 3. All right, so Hebrews 10, let's get the text real quick So this is

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Hebrews 10 25. So we've heard this a lot. You just mentioned it. Yep this is 25 what version are we gonna be reading from?

14:33

Yes So I just back up so we need to back up and look at verse 24 super helpful

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So Hebrews 10 24 and 25 and let us consider how to stir one another to love and good works

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All right, and then it says Not neglecting to meet together or to gather as is the habit of some but encouraging one another and all the more as you see

14:54

The day draw you're saying wait Are you saying that that the word is saying gathering is essential to helping produce good works and that's right.

15:01

That's right a minute Amen, come on. Did you put that in context though? And then get that context out of here

15:10

Look at verse 24. You're absolutely you guys are absolutely right because it's like what what what the

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Apostle or the author to the Hebrews? I think it's Paul but the author to the Hebrews what he's saying in verse 25 is that not neglecting to gather is

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Precisely one of the ways and I would argue the fact that he takes time to explicitly mention it would to me indicate is one

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Of the chief ways one of the primary ways that we consider how to stir To love and good works now here it gets even even better.

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So now let's cross -reference now, we're ready for Hebrews 3 Okay, Hebrews 3, let me find it. I think it's 10 and 11

15:46

No, 12 12 and 13. Okay, take care brothers less there be now brothers This is what you're getting at the professing

15:53

Christian Yeah, he's saying brothers that doesn't mean that he has some kind of like super sense that these people are regenerate

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He can see an e written on there. Yeah, they're like, you know, that's not what he's saying He's calling them brothers because these are people who have been they've been baptized

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They're in they've been welcomed into church membership. They're a part of the visible church now at the end of the day They could be apostates they could you know, first John chapter 2 they went out from us, you know

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Because they were never one of us. So he's saying brothers This doesn't mean that they're regenerate in the in the objective sense.

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It simply means that they're a part of the visible church They've made a credible profession of faith. They've been baptized and we'll see right and we'll see right?

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So I so verse 12 Hebrews 3 verse 12 take care brothers Professing Christians in the visible church members in the church lest there be in any of you, right?

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Meaning the potential is that you could have had an empty profession not that you could lose your salvation But you might prove by your life and doctrine that you never had it to begin with right?

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So let's take care brothers lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart which would do what it would lead you to fall

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Away from the Living God that is it would lead you to go apostate It would lead you not to lose your salvation But to leave the church and prove that you never had it to begin with now verse 13, but Exhort one another some translations literally say stir up, right?

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So back to Hebrews 10 24 exhort one another every day as long as it is called today that none of you may be hardened by The deceitfulness of sin.

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So here's the train of logic, right? Hebrews 10 25 Don't neglect gathering why

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Hebrews 10 24 It's one of the primary ways that we stir one another up to love and good works now

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Hebrews 3 verse 13 in Stirring one another up to love and good works is one of the primary ways that we defend against Hebrews 3 verse 12 and unbelieving evil heart that would cause us to Fall away from the

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Living God So by gathering by that logic the church continuing to gather is one of the primary ways that God has given to us

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To preserve the soul so our state came in and said by not gathering you can preserve the flesh

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But the word says that by gathering you can preserve the soul and Christians Just fold it right and said the flesh matters more than the soul now

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That doesn't mean there are churches essential in any circumstance So you probably heard Doug and Jared and other guys saying like well

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If there's a tsunami coming and and we're being told hey if we gather this Sunday Tsunami is gonna hit 10 a .m.

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Yeah, everybody here if you don't get out of dodge, but that's not what was happening That's not what was happening March.

18:26

That's right So the way I look at is this it's the data of like how serious of a threat physical threat is the virus versus?

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the data right a namely the Word of God the the the infallible

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Inherent data and and how dangerous is neglecting the gathering to the soul and so basically it's like this if everyone's gonna physically die

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And in order to save every single life, we just need to miss one Lord's Day. Mm -hmm Let's miss one

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Lord's Day, right? But if we're being told and the data keeps coming in lower and lower and lower

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Yeah that virtually no one's gonna die or very few people 11 ,000 That actually died from Kovat rather than a motorcycle accident with Kovat, right?

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So 11 ,000 out of 350 million people if that's the data that we're getting at this point

19:14

Yeah, and we're saying this is the threat to the body and over here in order to avoid this threat

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You're not talking about missing one Lord's Day. You're talking about missing six months, right? Oh in California exit like all the way until 2021.

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That's right. Yeah So if we're talking about tsunamis coming you miss one Lord's Day, right and and gathering is the way we preserve the soul

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So the soul is gonna take a hit. Yeah by missing one Lord's Day, but you're gonna save every single physical body

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Let's do it. Yeah, right But if you're talking about 11 ,000 or 350 million over the last six months

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Versus missing not one Lord's Day But 20 30 40 50 then then just logically as as ministers as Christians We got to look at that We got to say the threat to the soul is larger than the threat to the flesh and if they were equal

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We got to go with the soul. Absolutely, you know, and also what started happening. I don't know I I mean,

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I'm a young I'm a young guy Joel, you know, I'm only 39 But uh, but yeah, I mean I mean about about 10 -15 years ago

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I started noticing that people started saying I don't need to go to church, right? I don't need to go on Sunday I can just wake up whenever I want get in my

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Bible, you know, and and then you start asking Okay. Well, what'd you study this week? What is it?

20:29

But it's like, you know, like yeah. Yeah Quick. No, I prayed. Oh, okay.

20:34

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool. But that you know, it's like, okay But yeah, I mean I think I think that has just been the mustard seed of this moment, you know

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The the the leaven working through the dough, you know It's like all of a sudden now a lot of people are just saying that they're a

20:51

Christian, right? And they're just like yeah, I don't need to go to church because I have Jesus I have my smartphone.

20:59

Yeah. Yeah, he's right in my smartphone, you know, and that's where that's what I'm trying to say Because it's unique Jesus is with you at home.

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If you're a regenerate Christian if you're a generate portion You have the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit. Yes, because you have the indwelling ministry of the

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Holy Spirit He exudes the spirit of the risen Christ in you and you're not saying anything against personal time one -on -one

21:20

One and yes, yep, right exactly Yeah So we're saying

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Jesus is present with every believer by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit The spirit of the risen

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Christ is present with every believer. Hmm, but Christ is present in a particular way, right?

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So revelation one I gave you guys that but another one that would be great is just Matthew 18, right? We use it for church discipline all the time

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But it's this idea of you know You know If your brother sins against you go tell him his fault if he listens you've won him over if not then bring one or two

21:50

With you so that the testimony may be established in the presence of two or three witnesses. That's kind of fallback

21:56

It's a shout -out to the mosaic. Yeah, you know the mosaic law that we actually care about do justice, right?

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That's right we cross examine it was judged not So one or two now so two or three witnesses and then if he still doesn't listen then we tell it to the church

22:17

Absolutely, if he doesn't listen to the church, then we hand him over right we treat him as a tax collector a

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Gentile That's an outsider. We no longer refer to him as a brother in Christ Now he may be and the

22:28

Lord may use this church discipline if he is a brother in Christ to bring him unto repentance Yeah Or he could be an unbeliever who now the

22:35

Lord is gonna use this At the bottom of his rope to save him for the very first time or it could be that he was never a brother in Christ and he's actually not among the elect and he's never coming back.

22:45

Yeah, that could be the case. But here's the point Jesus follows that up. This is Matthew 18 He follows it up and he says for I tell you whatever you bind in heaven will be bound on earth

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Right, or I'm sorry, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven Right, and that's the same language

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Matthew 18 that Jesus previously now he's using church now now previously Matthew 16

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This is one Peter, you know, who do you say that I am? You're the Christ the son of a blessed are you Simon of Jonah flesh and blood has not revealed this to you

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But my father who's in heaven and I tell you your name shall be Peter You shall be the rock or the pebble, you know

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And my church on which on which my church will be built and then he says I give you the keys in the same exact Language Matthew 16 to Matthew 18, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven

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Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. And now what Jesus is doing. He's giving to the Apostles So I don't think it's just Peter.

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I think Peter is representative of the Apostles. He's saying I'm giving you ecclesiastical spiritual authority

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I'm giving you the keys of the kingdom. That's Matthew 16 now Matthew 18 He's saying that same authority that I'm giving to the

23:48

Apostles that same authority will be also given to the church And then in Matthew 18

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He finishes up by saying you've got these these keys of the kingdom binding and loosing that kind of authority and then boom here comes

24:01

The verse that we always take out of context Jesus says for wherever two or three are gathered.

24:07

Yeah, I am present I am there in their midst now We take that to say wherever two or three

24:12

Christian college students are in their hallway the door We did a whole podcast on this brother Singing kumbaya with a djembe and an ovation, you know

24:22

Right, then Jesus is no what what what that's saying is Jesus is present in a particular way, right?

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Because why say that why say that Matthew 18 wherever two or three are gathered for an omnipresent God So he's present uniquely right uniquely.

24:38

Yes, and what's the context? It's not just two or three professing Christians together because he just got done talking about the church

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So according to Jesus what he's telling us is that two or three baptized believers who have made a credible profession of faith actually?

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Constitutes in covenant a local church wherever a local church is gathered

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Christ is present and who is always present, but now he's present in a particular way in a particular

25:02

That's right. So if you thought I was wacky with Revelation 1, I'm just throwing I'm just saying there's more text that we can go

25:09

Unique presence of Christ that belongs only in the assembly of the local church, you know this right here during this festival

25:17

Conference whichever one you want to say, you know How awesome it has been to be around other believers and have these conversations like we're having right now

25:25

Absolutely, you know, I mean this this is just pumping me up just even be around people that are actually thinking about these things

25:32

You know because I mean at times we're wrestling, you know in our community or by ourselves or however

25:38

But to be around the body and say hey, how are you handling the presidential debate?

25:43

No, I'm joking You know, how are you handling the kovat situation? How are you handling? You know, you're you're

25:49

California getting shut down, you know, and it's like it's like I mean MacArthur's doing this thing, but you're also doing this thing

25:55

You don't have the publicity, you know, but it's it's like you are out there like really challenging There's a lot of good guys small guys like me who are fighting.

26:03

Yeah, exactly and that's awesome I'm so glad you're here, you know talking about this right now because a lot of people need to be praying for you guys out there

26:10

For sure, even in the move, you know to Texas I mean we but we're a community of believers and we need to be have each other's back absolutely praying for each other

26:18

Absolutely, man just to put a bookend on what you just said Joel to We when you read that verse in context and explain it the way you just explained it and exegete it the way you just did

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It goes from the erroneous version of a couple people are praying and Jesus just creepily walks up behind say

26:35

I'm here too guys I'm in your midst. I just let you know to the preciousness of him saying there's there's an assembly

26:42

If only two or three that's right are gathered I show up in a unique way and there's something special and your word unique.

26:49

I love that you're using that word Unique and and I and I show up in that way within the assembly within that congregation

26:56

That's right. And and church is essential because a beautiful thing. Yeah, not not not despite No, it's one in the same point church is essential because church is unique.

27:05

What's unique about it? Christ is uniquely present if I can sum it up That's that's the long and short of it church is essential because church is unique church is unique because Christ Only at church is uniquely present beautiful.

27:20

Yeah. Well, man, I didn't know we were gonna get a preaching today So much I don't have my organ drop

27:26

I'll give them up But yeah, man

27:32

Why don't you tell people listening people watching where they can find out about you if you got anything books or anything like that Just let them know so they can do so right response ministries .com.

27:42

So right response ministries .com. I pastor currently the response church, San Diego I'm gonna be handing that over to some faithful elders

27:49

They're gonna continue to carry the baton in San Diego the response church right response ministries.

27:55

Think think Think Bethlehem Baptist desiring God think grace community church grace to you now micro level

28:04

So the response church right response ministries .com or check out right response ministries our

28:09

YouTube channel And and I'm gonna be taking that with me. So I'm still gonna be doing podcasts online sermons

28:15

Don't you have a small to know no training program you're not you're gonna do that. Okay. No, so we have like I mean

28:22

We've got a lot of online Material, but we don't have a official in God's institution. Okay.

28:27

Okay, so right response ministries .com the new church Lord willing 2021 in Hutto, Texas Hutto, Texas 45 minutes north of Austin just close enough to make a difference just far enough to live my life.

28:40

There you go safety But Hutto, Texas 2021 the goal is to plant

28:46

Covenant Bible Church awesome So I'll continue to minister with right response ministries, but I always want to I'm a church man

28:52

So I want to yeah, sir a church. Absolutely. Thank you guys for letting Joel Thank you so much for coming on and everyone listening or watching

28:57

Make sure you check him out and we do appreciate you coming on here and giving us that a little mini sermon

29:03

That was fire brother. Yeah, brother. Good to see you comes Durbin. Here we go. Joel Evan everybody. Thank you

29:08

Yeah, man, that's awesome Thanks for the book too, yeah, you appreciate it man, definitely