February 3, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Paul Washer, Armen Thomassian, and Austin Huggins

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live -streaming to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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I am Eric Nielsen the webmaster for iron sharpens iron radio .com sitting in for Chris Arnzen as you may know

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Chris has been taking some time to go to the foundations conference in December and the g3 conference in January and He's done a number of interviews.

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We're going to be playing some of those interviews today Unfortunately, Chris came back with more than interviews from those conferences

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He's been sick for quite a while, which is why we haven't had a new broadcast in some time

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I myself came back from the g3 conference and ended up having to stay a few days home from work

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But all that aside we have some very good interviews for you today Chris had the opportunity to speak with Paul Washer and Armin Tomasian at the foundations conference in New York in December and following that there is an interview with Pastor Austin Huggins from the g3 conference in 2019 we have a lot to cover today.

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So let's go ahead and get started today's iron sharpens iron radio broadcast features interviews that were conducted on -site on Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th at the foundations conference in New York City Please excuse the background noises and other

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Imperfections in the recording due to the fact that these were conducted on -site with a portable recorder

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I hope you enjoy these wonderful interviews Well, God certainly does answer prayer because one of my prayers for a number of years has been to interview a

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Man who has blessed me more than I can adequately describe in the

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English language and that is Paul Washer Paul Washer of heart cry missionary society and such a joy to be with Paul here at the foundations conference in New York City and Paul kid before we even get into our discussion.

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Can you tell our listeners about the Heart cry missionary society.

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Well, it was started probably somewhere around 25 30 years ago and What we do is we partner we are a local church

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Christ Church of Radford and we partner with Biblical churches of like faith around the world.

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We know them Through Providence and they must have either a national or international reputation among those of like faith

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And as they're training men to be elder qualified and sending them out and holding them accountable

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We help with that training we help support sending them out and work with them in accountability and continued training and our desire is to put as many

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Men on the field sent out through local churches and cared for by the elders of those churches right now

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I think we work in over 40 countries and God has seemingly blessed the work

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Praise God and we'll be giving you a website for that ministry momentarily, but One thing

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I'm going to say brother Paul then and this is believe me It's not intended to be an insult, but I cannot recall ever hearing you preach where I didn't feel uncomfortable

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Where I didn't squirm. Yeah, of course you always direct us and Set and drive us into the arms of a merciful and forgiving and gracious Savior, but How important is it?

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Do you believe if a preacher is truly? Proclaiming the whole counsel of God for his audience to be squirming a bit and to be driven to self -examination obviously that can sometimes be the lack of that in the audience can be the fault of those who are listening who are

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So proud and have such a seared conscience that they don't even realize that the message is applying to them

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But as you know as you have repeatedly said in your own sermons This is very often the fault of the one behind the pulpit

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So if you could explain that a little bit well first of all you have to understand that I have an itinerant

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Ministry in which I do a lot of evangelism and and many times in places where people

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Believe themselves to be Christian and yet show no fruit of such Or in areas that may be a bit more liberal where the word of God's not preached

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There's a difference between an itinerant ministry and a pastoral ministry Pastorally a man is preaching through the full counsel of God and so he's not only reproving and correcting and training and righteousness

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But he's also encouraging and so you have to make a distinction between those two ministries.

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I Since the beginning I felt the great need as I read through church history

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And as I read through the scriptures and as I compared modern Christianity To the scriptures in church history

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I began to see that one of the greatest problems in American Evangelicalism was the superficial gospel that is preached and then pastors simply declaring someone converted

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Just because they walked an aisle without Counseling them without spending copious amount of times helping them discern the scriptures and and what the gospel is and what is a true response

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To the gospel and so I'm primarily preaching in that area and yes It does make people squirm at the same time when people have come to the church that I attend

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And I've been preaching there because the elders have asked me to They'll usually ask the elders.

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You know I don't understand you know I hear Paul preaching on the internet I see one thing here in the church.

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He's primarily primarily preaching on the love of God Because truly converted people their greatest need is a deeper and deeper

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Understanding of the love of God in Christ and the more they get that the more they'll grow in sanctification

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Outside of our church and in many places I feel like it's a clarion call of warning to make your calling an election sure are you bearing the fruit of a

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Christian? Are you genuinely converted? Yes that would correct me if I'm wrong, but be somewhat comparative to the way

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I may counsel and speak with a brother or sister in a congregation and Speaking to somebody in a bus or a train right right you know

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When when I'm preaching for example in the street or a bus or a train or something It's good news.

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It's joyful news. You know and I'm going to talk to them about sin I'm going to talk to them about the holiness of God, but it is

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It's not this I'm not going to approach it as this stern rebuke or this solemn declaration but when we're in the context of people who have sat under preaching for years and Yet have not been moved by the gospel because maybe they've not even heard it clearly

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It's another type of preaching Now we know that the scriptures forbid ear tickling for men from behind a pulpit to be

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Tickling the ears of the listeners in a way that basically makes them fear feel comfortable promises things that make them filled with joyful anticipation and so on and never

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Troubles their conscience and so on now we who are reformed we often look at Those that are in perhaps the word of faith movement or some other modern evangelical movement even just your bland average vanilla evangelical that Just wants to speak comforting soothing words

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But do you think that in our circles sometimes and in fundamentalist circles that a preacher?

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can be tickling the ears of those present by only

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Focusing on the sins of those that are the sins that are not common amongst that congregation you may be solely speaking against Homosexuality adultery fornication in modest dress and so on and I and I of course so I think that those things must be

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Proclaimed to be damning behaviors, but at the same time Doesn't a preacher especially a pastor a shepherd need to have some awareness of his congregation

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Not that he knows what goes on behind their closed doors and private But that he has to really as you do with me and many other people he has to make his own people squirm not just Preach against those outside of the four walls of that church.

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Well, it's like this When I had my heart attack,

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I did not need to be treated for cancer You know, I could have the greatest cancer specialists in the world and I would have died

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I needed treatment for a heart attack. And so what what see here's the thing a pastor a true pastor

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Knows his people he's with his people. He visits his people. It's true pastoring

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It's not just I'm the preaching pastor. No, he knows his people and you know

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Even with my own children if each my children have different personalities and different weaknesses I'll deal with them differently according to their need if one child is

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Overly proud and robust must deal with him in humility if if the other has a sense of false humility

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I must deal with that and it's the same way in a congregation I don't need to be preaching to people outside and something very important today in the age of the

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Internet When you're pastoring you do not need to be preaching to people on the Internet You need to be preaching to your people because whatever is good for a local congregation will be a blessing on the

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Internet but not vice versa a Lot of what you are saying is very

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I think Very much wedded to a message. You just gave here at the foundations conference

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Where you said God's hammer is always hard, but it's always necessary Yes, and I think that you are very faithful in bringing down the hammer of God when you preach

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But at the same time as I said earlier, you don't just leave us there in terror You you drive us by the

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Holy Spirit to the loving and merciful arms of Christ, you know If we study the the preachers of old even

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Spurgeon Whitfield so on and so forth even Wesley there was the idea of the the preacher like a physician

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You know when my mother had cancer and she passed away praise God in the Lord, but when she had cancer

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I'll never forget that physician. I so admired him. He knew my mother was pretty stubborn and hard and hard -willed and and So he did something as unusual.

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He said mrs. Washer. He said I have to tell you you have cancer and and we have to deal with it severely and Immediately my mom was like kind of in denial or kind of no, it's not that bad and he it's like he knew my mother he brought a stack of folders probably

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I don't know it looked like six inches a foot deep and And then he'd go miss washer.

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Here's the reason I say that and he presented the first evidence Here's the reason I say that the second third fourth and fifth and you know what?

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I love my mother and that doctor was hurting my mother He really was with every one of those evidences.

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He presented he was ruining her day He was making her sad at the end of it.

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My mom was in tears You would think I would be angry at that doctor, but I admired him

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He was hurting my mother so that she would respond You see he knew he he's got

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I've got to make this real to this woman that if we do not act now She's in a severe case.

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Now if he had done anything else, he would have been immoral He was seeking to save her life, you know a man in a burning building

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I'm not going to whisper to him that he might ought to think about running. I'm gonna scream at him to run

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Now we have to be very very careful at the same time. We do not have to Intentionally be hard We should always be loving

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All we really have to do is repeat what's in this book give them the full counsel and the full counsel is

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Not only this Extravagant beautiful love and grace of God But also if we are not in Christ and we do not run to him for refuge

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There is the justice of God Amen. Well, a lot of people have asked me

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Because they know that I know your pastor Anthony Mathenia How's Paul washers health doing and I was wondering if you could give an update because I really don't have the in -depth knowledge

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Of course that you do being your your own health if you if in fact if you could

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If you feel comfortable doing so tell us about the fact that you actually clinically died three times well, what

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I know about it is that I had to be resuscitated three different times and that That when after I was resuscitated the third time they told my wife they said, you know

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Your husband is never going you're not going to interact with your husband again Wow he's he's he's gone so long without oxygen that it would take a miracle and And I did

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I mean when from what I understand when the ambulance got there I was basically gray and clay like and then

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They even said, you know, we've lost him and my wife heard it, you know, and and then

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They kept working and they resuscitated me and I don't know. I just know it was three times

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I don't know exactly when and where it all happened and I remember The first Thing I remember was several days later now from what

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I understand I was talking and things but mainly nonsense But the first thing

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I remember was a doctor standing over me and he said, you know, do you know who you are and I said

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Yes, and I remember him like calling some others. I think physicians or something and they are all standing around my my bed there and They said, you know who you are and I said they said, you know your name

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I said, I'm Paul Washer and they said do you know what happened to you? And I said well, no was

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I in an accident and this one he was he was oriental Neurologist, I think lovely man kind man, very funny

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And I said was I in an accident and he said no you died three times

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And I don't know if it was clinical or whatever you would call it I just know I was resuscitated three times and that my heart it completely stopped and how long ago was that was it'll be three years this coming

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March and And it was you know, they told me it would be a difficult Recovery and I didn't really believe it

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I just thought you know Just suck it up and go on but I realized there were so many things that were were different and so many

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It's like many of the weaknesses that I'd had before became stronger more susceptible to melancholy more susceptible to fear and things that You see it's like I was teaching a while ago

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God works weakness in our life to create Dependence upon him and the more the closer we get to zero

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The more filled we can be with him and I wouldn't have chosen this for my life.

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There's there many things I wouldn't you know, my other medical conditions I never would have chosen but I know that God has used them and I would be afraid to be without them

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You know, I don't ever want to know, you know, I never want to say to the Lord Lord If this hadn't what did you save me from by this heart attack?

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I don't want to know But I know that he is all wise and all loving and all good and then that what he does is right

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Amen You have been speaking very powerfully on prayer and after you

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Tell this story briefly that if you don't mind repeating it from your sermon

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But I want you to advise our listeners how they can pray for you and your health

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But before that if you could at least in summary fashion repeat that powerful story of Leonard Ravenhills Description of a man walking into a prayer room

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I just heard this one time and I was always wanting to know who he was talking about, but I never knew he

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He talked about one time walking in to a room where there was a man who had distinguished himself in prayer

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He was a man of prayer and he said that he walked in Realized the man was there and was praying and then he didn't turn around He stopped and he backed out the door and he said that I Backed out the door because you never turn your back on royalty and You know, that is one thing that You know

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Leonard Ravenhill and I would would disagree theologically on some things and and But oh my when you when you heard him preach

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I I think the word that you would have to use would be reality Here was a man who?

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walked with God and And and and you know, we were all young guys in college when we would go see him and There were other men like that, you know,

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I had the privilege of of being around a man, you know, Mac Tomlin Yes And Mac is a godly man in himself.

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Mm -hmm And but but also Mac was like a bridge to me Mac Mac Tomlinson was like a bridge because he knew a lot of the old guys

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You know that before that I never knew and so I was always able to glean these stories and of course

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Max a student of history and everything else and and he He kind of brought me into a world that I would have never known existed of these men they they weren't necessarily

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Eloquent they weren't necessarily academics, although they knew their scripture But they lived and preached with the power of God and God used them mightily, you know, and it's so funny

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You know, I'm kind of like a kid when he goes to see his grandpa Even though Mac Mac is not that much older than me, but it's like hey

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Mac. Tell me another story Tell me another story, you know, it's so encouraging to hear, you know

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And sometimes you have to laugh at the kind of men and women that God will use strange birds mightily used of God Yeah, you know

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Mac, oh yes every time I it's funny it's as if he has amnesia but every time

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I ask him to come as a guest on my show And I say what would you like to talk about and I always say can we talk about good books

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That's a good you got him down Well, we've spoken about that three times already.

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Can we come up with something else, but he's a precious brother now How does that with that story of Leonard Ravenhill and the man backing out of the prayer room?

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How does that reflect upon the deficiencies that you are addressing in your sermon about The typical prayer life of perhaps modern -day evangelicals.

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Well, I think there's a deeper problem in it. That is just men of the

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West especially men of America have that can -do spirit of pragmatism you know,

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I mean If someone comes to me with some church growth strategy or ministry strategy or five ways to do this

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I mean, I'm gonna tell them if you give me the book it's going straight in the trash can I'm not And and we've got to realize that Our work is not social it's not academic even though it requires study

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Our work is a supernatural work That cannot be carried out with any weapon of the flesh and I think that's where young guys have been misled

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Even though they may even have good theology but it's like okay, that's my theology, but that's not necessarily my practice and Even Mac Thomlinson would say things like yeah, but is it a reality in your life?

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You're saying and see we have been given only a few weapons and they're so powerful.

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We don't need anything else We've been given the weapon of the proclamation of God's Word the weapon of intercessory prayer and the weapon of a godly life and You you go beyond that you're getting on you're putting on Saul's armor

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You know, give me the smooth stones of the gospel to sling at that giant Because armor is not going to help me.

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I'm so weak there. There is no strategy There is no there's nothing in this world that I could add to the gospel.

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That's gonna make me stronger If God does not move on this preachers behalf in ministry

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Nothing is going to happen as a matter of fact, not only nothing. It's they're going to be negatives you see and we can do nothing in the flesh and I've learned that through the study of scripture, but I've also learned that through rubbing shoulders with men from the old school

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Mm -hmm You know, I've learned two things Today that I never heard before The first is that there are any people that either have the audacity

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The stupidity or both to tell you that you're not a very good preacher. I'm amazed that people like that exist

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But the second one you dispelled a myth that I've been Hearing since I've been a

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Christian I believe since the 1980s perhaps I can't even count I don't know, but I know that I've repeated this myth thinking it was true

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But Abba father you just mentioned in a sermon not long ago today

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Does not mean daddy. It's not that overly familial or Perhaps playful way of addressing father.

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You know, we've got it, you know It is a term of endearment

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Far beyond anything I could exaggerate. It is a term of endearment of Love of grace of acceptance that is all true.

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But to say it is equal to daddy No Because that is eliminating the idea of it also holds the father in Reverence and highest honor and I mentioned that it's been primarily in Africa especially

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Among African believers I can I can think in Zambia in different places where you will see a child come to their father and let's say he's a good man, he's a good

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Christian man and Without The fear of there being some fault in their father's character that's going to adversely affect them

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Loving their father and yet at the same time you will see this this reverence

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You know, it's like I said, I love my children I love my children, but I have to make it very very clear.

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I am NOT their friend I'm something higher. I'm their father And so even though they'll come to me we'll laugh together and everything

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I am NOT one of their Colleagues that's 15 years old. I'm their father.

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And so they're they're not going to speak to me in Any way, but a reverent way even though they may be smiling, but it's going to be reverent

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I am their father and their mother is their mother and that's lost in this idea that Abba father means daddy

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And how does that connect to an appropriate way that our

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Our fellow believers should be approaching the throne of grace when we pray Well, you know

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Jesus set up what I called this morning the perfect psychology of prayer our father who art in heaven

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He's our father. That is true. Oh my god, so wonderful We never have to be nervous before him that he is going to act inconsistently with his nature

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We're fully accepted in the beloved and yet at the same time our father is in heaven seated on the throne of heaven

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You know, I'm reminded of a picture. I think I get this right. You're probably a better student of history, but isn't there a picture of John F.

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Kennedy sitting in the Oval Office I believe it is so that would be sitting on in the most powerful desk maybe in the world at the time and You see that inside the desk through the hole there

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His little son is playing with toys at his feet. Yes, sir And so and so I want you to think about this for a moment, you know, here's the most

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Arguably the most powerful political figure in the world and if men were called in there

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They would they would watch their P's and Q's Regardless of what you think about his politics is his office demands honor

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And so you would be very careful how you spoke and yet what we see is we see his little boy playing at his feet and I think that shows something of what yes were his children yes, we can delight before him, but never never laying aside this reverence of Holy holy holy and you know what

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I've discovered about especially the American mind Especially in the last 25 years is we can't seem to think that those two things can exist together

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But in the scriptures they do They do just like we can't we can't accept the fact that someone can love me and tell me

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I'm wrong at the same time Right, you know, but the one who does love you will tell you you're wrong.

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In fact, it's amazing how People who are parents have amnesia in that regard because they may deal with their peers or other people in a

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Very Insulted manner when they are told they are wrong But they seem to forget that they must be telling their children at some point that they're wrong in something if they love them

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Yes, if they love them at this point, we need to take a break from the interview to hear a word from our sponsors

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back.

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This is iron sharpens iron radio Chris Arnzen our host has been interviewing

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Paul Washer Let's continue to listen So now I come to the point where I want you to educate our listeners how they can pray for you

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Not only your health, but also just a heart cry Missionary Society in general and anything else that you'd like to well

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We begin our prayer meetings at heart cry with the primary petition

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Lord increase our fear of thee Increase our reverence toward thee

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Growing in reverence to God pretty much handles everything else

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The more we know about who he is his otherness that as I said this morning, he's not like us

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He's not like us just bigger he's an entirely different category the more we see

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God as God the more we see the love of God in the cross of Christ The more sanctification everything's going to fall in line, you know for me

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My greatest desire And this is going to sound strange People say how can we pray for you pray that I will be a godly husband and they say well

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You know don't really understand that you know, you're preaching the mission you do all these things Here's what

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I've discovered in a pulpit. It's very easy to appear godly, isn't it?

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Mm -hmm. You stand before people at times man that guy's preaching he You know, but it's behind closed doors and it's with the people that are closest to you

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Where your character really comes out if I can be a godly loving patient merciful kind husband

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Everything else will fall in line everything and and also, you know If I mess up in the ministry,

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I've messed up in a ministry If I mess up with my wife, I've messed up with one of God's daughters.

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That's a very dangerous thing See that so so that you know because I found out that that Publicly, it's easy to appear a certain way, but privately

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Pray for my private life that I would be What I appear to be that we would walk in integrity and then

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Pray not so much for heart cry, but the Great Commission. There's still so much to do

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There's there's so many people groups and then people groups that it once had the gospel for example

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I've been focusing a lot recently on France and Paris and you know

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You walk around the streets of Paris and you realize that there's more light in the jungles of Peru more gospel light

36:54

Wow, then in the streets of Paris, you know, David Yes, yeah that name. Yes.

36:59

Yes. There's a reform about this missionary. Yeah, and I work with a David Romare in Paris and His lovely family

37:10

So, you know, there's there's so much to do and then with Bible translation people don't know this that There's Bible translation going on and there are some good translators.

37:21

Don't get me wrong But a great a great part of Bible translation has been terribly affected by liberalism hmm, even in Evangelical circles.

37:32

Yes, how about even in reformed and Calvinistic? Not so much but Here's the thing about Bible translation that we got to understand is that People will say well the

37:43

Bible's the missionary and so we got to make it understandable. That's not biblical The Bible is not the missionary.

37:49

The Bible is the Bible, right? All right, and we should be translating a Bible and Training men in that people group to preach that Bible to study that Bible to expound it before God's people

38:03

See, they don't need a paraphrase a wild paraphrase. What they need is a

38:08

Bible They can exegete and proclaim to God's people So even those people who are not doing a liberal translation, for example, leaving out

38:17

Jesus as the Son of God and things like that Even those who are doing a more conservative translation what they've got to realize is the

38:25

Bible is not the missionary the missionary is the missionary and the missionary needs a

38:31

Bible that he can expound let him explain it to the people let him teach the

38:36

Bible and And don't think the people are as backward as you think because that's what you know all through the that has been the big rule

38:44

Of Roman Catholicism the people can't understand the real Bible. So give them something else and that's not true

38:50

Right. In fact, I just preached recently at a men's drug and alcohol recovery ministry in Pennsylvania That is something that is dear and dear to my heart because I am someone who tragically

39:06

After being sober for 18 years after coming to Christ. I fell back into That sin of habitual drunkenness for several years and through church discipline and Through this

39:22

God through this ministry in North Carolina Hebron colony ministries I was restored to not only a right relationship with God, but to the church and have

39:31

Had no believe it or not. I've had no temptation in that area for some reason ever since But I was amazed after preaching at this place and in this nation

39:44

Reveal some arrogance or prejudice on or pride on my part, but I was amazed at several men from this place who are

39:54

They were very obviously in the way that they spoke. These were street people.

39:59

These were people from an urban hip -hop kind of a culture And they approached me with these very deep theological questions and also questions that revealed that they

40:11

Understood a lot more than I thought that they ever were. Oh, yes Absolutely. Here's something that I want you to see and it's very very important Is this idea that a certain class of people cannot understand the

40:23

Bible and so we've got to somehow paraphrase it or dumb it down That's Roman Catholicism that that's

40:30

Antichrist from the word go and it's not right They need a Bible and we need to translate, you know,

40:37

I went to I Was out there in California with grace community and masters and all them and and it was three or four years ago

40:45

And I just said they were talking about this the need of translators and and I said, please

40:52

Please why because that school and that church believes that the Word of God is the Word of God and they fear they would never

40:58

Change it. They would never try to dumb it down. They believe it's the Word of God and it's powerful enough To to grab a hold of the the greatest intellect

41:07

But it's also powerful enough to make itself known to the to the most uneducated mind We've seen that through church history and I said you men out there grace community and masters you're the very ones who need to be teaching people to translate this

41:21

Bible because you fear God and you love his word and You wouldn't change a jot or a tittle of it.

41:27

And so, you know, they're starting a program So if there's any young guys out there young people who are thinking about I want to be a

41:34

Bible translator But I don't know where to go go to masters go to grace community

41:39

I plead with you because there you're going to learn to fear God and you're going to learn that.

41:45

No, you don't touch the Bible You translate it exactly as it is and then you teach people to preach it.

41:51

Amen. I'm sure Phil Johnson Who is the executive director of grace to you will be very happy to hear you say those things

41:58

He is he has actually been interviewed on my show more than any other other person Dear friend, but going back very briefly as far as prayer for you

42:08

Yeah, how did that how do our listeners pray for your health and and any kind of a final? Current update on your health situation as much as you feel comfortable.

42:17

Well, my my my heart is doing well I Couldn't take some of the medication and so it's it's a very strict diet and a regimen of exercise and things

42:29

So my heart is doing well, my doctor told me the other day goes Congratulations, you have the blood pressure of a 15 year old.

42:34

So I was very happy about that One of my problems biggest is kind of a genetic thing and arthritis

42:43

That's why both my hips have been replaced and now my knee and then they would replace my spine

42:48

But they don't have the technology to do it It's arthritic and it causes a great deal of pain, but like I said,

42:56

I told you earlier I don't know want to know What these things have saved me from?

43:03

Hmm, you know, but I know that God is all wise and I know that everything is right

43:08

Amen. Now one final thing with Christmas right around the corner within a matter of days, right?

43:16

I asked Stephen Lawson the same thing and I'd like you to perhaps respond to the same question

43:21

That Christmas is a beloved Holiday that is celebrated globally even by multitudes of people who do not know

43:30

Christ truly Some who even openly reject him, right? The Jesus that is focused upon In this holiday, although it is a glorious truth that he came in Human flesh and That he would ultimately bear on the cross the sins of his people and propitiate the wrath of the father by this amazing and glorious Act of that that began with his incarnation

44:02

But at the same time when we constantly see the imagery of a meek mild helpless harmless fragile infant

44:11

We forget Sometimes or many forget that he is returning and when he returns he is not going to be this fragile child he'll be not only coming to Rescue his elect and bring him bring us into eternal glory with him but he's also coming with wrath and if you could perhaps speak to our

44:33

Listeners because I can't guarantee that all of our listeners truly know Christ Perhaps you could give them some kind of a

44:42

Litmus test when they examine their themselves as to whether or not they are truly ready to meet this returning

44:49

Christ and Knowing that there are even many Who are not only avid churchgoers who love religion who love piety who?

45:00

Who loves the Bible as literature? They may even be pastors, but they may be just as damned as the prostitute or the serial killer, right?

45:11

If you could just perhaps let our listeners know how they can be Examining themselves to be prepared for this returning

45:17

Christ, even if it If even if he does not return within our lifetime They will be meeting him in death

45:25

Yes, I've often said to people while I was preaching if Christ does not come back in a thousand years

45:30

You're gonna still see him in less than 75, right? and but here's a point that I want to make something that really troubles me today, you know, we're a people of extremes and You know, there's the easy believism

45:44

So there are countless people who believe they're saved because they walked an aisle and some ecclesiastical authority

45:50

Popishly pronounced them saved Okay, so that's wrong on the other hand with the reform movement

45:56

I've seen people take beautiful reform Puritan truth and twist it into dangerous doctrine

46:02

I have seen now young people who are so introspective and examining themselves that if their repentance isn't

46:11

Just utterly profound and their faith isn't just this tremendous type of mature

46:17

Puritan faith They have no assurance and that's is that's as damning as the other doctrine

46:22

You know, the the real thing is have we seen our utter inability to save ourselves and are we

46:33

Resting in the work of Christ not resting in the greatness of our repentance of the greatness of our faith

46:39

Yes, there will be repentance. Yes, there will be faith, but those are also evangelical graces in which we grow

46:45

You see my repentance and my faith is quite different from when I was first saved Hopefully I've matured in those areas

46:52

So I want people to maintain a balance and there is a thing of making your calling an election

46:58

Sure, and the book of first John was written a series of tests through which we would examine ourselves

47:04

But it's always this It is having a sense of our sin having a sense of a brokenness over it relying upon Christ a

47:15

Change of heart in which we truly desire to keep his commands a brokenness when we do not leading to confession

47:22

You know blessed are the poor in spirit Are we poor in spirit recognizing that that we have nothing to do we cannot save ourselves

47:31

But Christ did it all blessed are those who mourn do we actually see our sin and desire greater righteousness?

47:39

You know, I had a professor TW hunt and he was that he was a man of prayer And one day

47:46

I walked into his office and he said Paul. How are you doing? And that because I had that look on my face and I said, you know,

47:52

I'm I'm so I'm so unrighteous I'm so this I'm so not that and I'm I just sat down and plopped down in the chair and that old man stood up put

48:02

Both hands on my shoulder and said in the name of Jesus Christ. I pronounce you blessed and I thought boy that was strange

48:09

And then he sat down and he said you don't understand do you and I said no He said

48:14

Paul if you had walked in here utterly satisfied with your own righteousness I would have worried about your soul, but listen to you.

48:22

You said I love Christ. I want to love him more. I Seek to do his commands, but I fail so terrible

48:30

I want to be more holy and he said have you never read, you know, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness

48:38

Paul you're hungering and thirsting for righteousness Those who are satisfied in their own righteousness and care little for growing in Christ are in great danger but but the weakest saint who is relying utterly upon Jesus Christ and Broken over sin and clinging to the cross

49:01

Those are great evidences Amen. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing your pastor preach at the g3 conference coming up in January You were originally on the roster.

49:12

Are you I still am? Oh, you are haven't passed away Yeah, and I am very very fortunate as an itinerant preacher to be under You know for elders

49:26

Who like even when you said, you know, can can I interview you? My elders have decided that I can't say no to anybody.

49:34

And so they always say Paul run it past us Besides, you know, but here's the thing, you know,

49:40

I am gosh, I'm 58 years old I've been in the faith for 35 years or something.

49:46

I've been in the ministry almost that long and Yet I rely upon Being under godly elders and I rely on being in the context of a real visible

49:59

Local church and so all you young people out there who are like, yeah

50:04

You're watching all these preachers on YouTube and everything else look You have got to be under biblical elders in a biblical local church elders who are true pastors who are going to watch over and who know your name gonna watch over your life a

50:22

Congregation of like -minded believers a church that there's expository preaching.

50:28

There's congregational praying There's church discipline loving merciful biblical church discipline

50:33

You need to be in a church like that. You simply will be hampered in all your Christian growth

50:39

Until you get in that situation. I was very impressed when you told me what I asked you can

50:45

I interview you have to have my Elders approval and I was so glad that I knew

50:50

Anthony well enough that I had his cell phone number I was able to text him and get an immediate response.

50:56

My pastor knows everybody in the world But what you just said actually Years ago when

51:03

I was possibly before I was a believer, but it was when I was being drawn It's hard to say when

51:09

I was actually regenerate But this Pentecostal pastor in this church where I was visiting for a while he was complaining to the congregation about them pouring money into the televangelists and He actually

51:23

I think he stood up on a pew and he said Jimmy Swaggart's not going to be there with you and you're in the hospital room holding your hand

51:31

Jimmy Swaggart's not going to be there With you and your wife in the living room when you're having marital problems

51:36

Jimmy Swaggart's not going to be there at the graveside when somebody precious to you Passes away.

51:42

Just that still strikes as much as I Did not believe in much of what this preacher said.

51:49

I think that was one thing I gleaned out of him Was very true, I remember an old Baptist preacher and I I don't remember his name

51:58

But a lady came to him and said I want to sing in the choir He's and he knew that she wasn't but he said ma 'am.

52:03

Are you a member of this church? She said no I'm a member of the great Invisible Universal Church, and he said then you need to go sing in the great invisible

52:12

Universal Choir In fact James White who you know, he has been involved in many

52:21

Outreaches in the public even in Salt Lake City, Utah and in Arizona where Mormons have activities and there have been people who have

52:31

Approached him as he's passing out tracts and as he's Evangelizing and public open -air preaching and so on that can

52:39

I join you and help you pass out tracts? And his first question is what church are you a member of? I'm not a member of any church

52:45

I'm sorry come back when you are under the authority of elders and right and you could join us No, brother.

52:51

God's plan is very simple But he doesn't have plan B That's right.

52:56

Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have Your website for the

53:01

HeartCry Missionary Society and I had it right in front of me and it disappeared Do you happen to know that off the top of your head?

53:07

I think I do HeartCryMissionary .com HeartCryMissionary .com and HeartCryMissionary .com

53:13

is is a ministry of Christ Church of Radford So we're not out there.

53:19

We're not so much parachurch. We are we're under a church Amen. Well, I am so thrilled and thankful to you that You took time out of your day in this very busy conference where you have played a vital role as a preacher to sit down with me and To be interviewed even though you're not feeling up to par physically

53:42

And I hope that this is just the first of many interviews to come God willing. Well, thank you for the privilege

53:48

God bless you. God bless you. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Paul Washer Now it's time for us to take our midway break and hear from our sponsors who support iron sharpens iron radio

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01:04:25

Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio. My name is Eric Nielsen, and I'm sitting in for Chris Arnson today

01:04:31

Would appreciate your prayers for Chris as he is recovering from Some viruses that he picked up at the g3 conference

01:04:41

Armin Tomasian took the time to sit down and and have a talk with Chris while Chris was at the

01:04:47

Foundations Conference this past December here is that interview Remember folks these interviews were recorded on site in New York City at the

01:04:56

Foundations Conference with a portable recorder So therefore, please excuse all of the recording imperfections and background noises

01:05:04

I'm here on site at the Foundations Conference in New York City a conference being hosted by Sermon audio, and it's my thrill to have once again on iron sharpens iron radio pastor

01:05:19

Armin Tomasian Pastor Armin Tomasian is pastor of faith free

01:05:24

Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina And as many of you heard me say on this program that I believe over the next decade

01:05:33

He's gonna become a household name amongst reformed Christians because I just think so highly of his preaching abilities

01:05:40

And I know I have to be very careful because Armin has rebuked me in the past For possibly tempting him to have a swelled head, so I better be careful

01:05:49

But Armin it's great to have you back in iron sharpens on radio. Thank you brother It's good to be here, and you just preached a very important message

01:05:57

I believe especially for the audience that is here at the Foundation Conference because many of us are from backgrounds that Might be more prone to unbiblical separatism now of course

01:06:12

I'm sure you would agree that every Bible believing Christian is a separatist of some kind but Unfortunately since we are sinners we are

01:06:27

We are errant we are Constantly failing in trying to obey

01:06:34

Christ and conduct things in a biblical Manner even if that is our goal, and we strive to do so We all as Christians tend to fail in one extreme or another you have those

01:06:48

Who have ecumenical relations with not only Roman Catholics and others that deny the gospel, but even as far as?

01:06:56

liberals who deny even the deity of Jesus Christ or his bodily resurrection

01:07:03

But as far as those of us who are we claim to be Bible believing Christians What are the dangers in your opinion?

01:07:13

when it comes to a failure to conduct biblical ecumenism

01:07:18

With those that are truly our brothers and sisters in Christ and of course I know that there are different forms of ecumenism

01:07:25

We can't always be Members of the same church, or we can't be leaders in the same church But if you could pick up where I left off the the danger

01:07:35

Chris is that We deny the doctrine of the body of Christ we deny

01:07:45

What is fundamental? That Christ is the head his church is one body one

01:07:54

Lord one faith one baptism and we

01:08:00

The danger is that through our distinctives through our differences through our peculiar peculiar is that we may have that we end up denying outright what is a

01:08:16

Fundamental truth of what the atonement has accomplished which is uniting those blood -washed

01:08:25

Altogether that there are many members in one body That we deny what will finally be the

01:08:36

Experience of the church when she is glorified and whether Individuals like it or not which of course they will being glorified

01:08:48

But they will be pulled together And they will stand as one and that that's the key danger.

01:08:54

We deny something that's fundamental That is key that is primary that we put a secondary tertiary matter even just a even just a

01:09:09

Particular nuance of our own understanding of even views on on Christmas or things like of this nature that we will divide over we will separate and not hold fellowship with I Just yeah, that's the danger

01:09:29

I was trying to warn against should there be the temptation in some and Any of us and I think it it is a temptation to any of us especially and I think one of my opening lines was to the thinking

01:09:41

Christian the person who thinks will inevitably wrestle over the differences and The danger is they will elevate the differences or some differences to the point that will drive them away from what

01:09:54

Christ prays that they may be one Would you agree with me that?

01:10:02

There are tendencies amongst specific groups of Christians denominations fellowships

01:10:10

That very often will leave them with a blind spot to certain things and if we cut off all fellowship

01:10:19

From our brethren who disagree with us on issues even if they're serious We may never learn from them in ways that we we could and vice versa they could learn from us as well, but sometimes there are things that Fester in our blind spots when we are only

01:10:42

Only fellowshipping with and hearing the preaching of and teaching of and reading books by people who agree exactly as we do

01:10:51

Confessionally or every jot and tittle and we these these festering blind spots may be alleviated if we had the humility to To learn from people that we know that are that they are our brothers in Christ.

01:11:07

We know that they have gifts But they may differ from us and we have to make sure that we are not being

01:11:16

Overly pharisaic or judgmental or however, you want to put it Unbiblically separatist that we totally rule them out

01:11:23

Yeah, we we all have we all have blind spots and we're all in danger of Feeling so comfortable with what we know and what we've committed to for a certain length of time when we preach especially or were outspoken we

01:11:41

We tend to then have an ownership bias And we said this is why

01:11:47

I believe so so the man for an example He has preached for years an eschatology that is dispensational

01:11:56

He preached and he preached and he preaches it Before he's even understood another perspective and the ownership bias of his human nature will almost

01:12:07

Cause him in his fallen state He won't even listen really to the other perspective of a historic pre -mill or a mill or post mill

01:12:17

He won't even listen. He is so sold to that. He doesn't want to consider that he has blind spots in his perspective of certain scriptures that may

01:12:28

Completely change how he looks at the whole of his state of theology

01:12:33

So, yeah, but it's it's a day it's very dangerous and if in the providence of God we have opportunity to spend time with those

01:12:40

Who differ sometimes it can be very very helpful Insofar as there are matters that aren't of critical importance

01:12:48

I mean, of course, I'm a linealists and post millenials. They can have those same as sure sure they can yeah,

01:12:54

I was just example an example and as far as I Know that you would agree that it is completely right and proper

01:13:03

And even commanded to form Convictions about the scriptures they may be very strict convictions and You take them very seriously like our divisions over baptism and it's interesting that you are in a denomination.

01:13:23

That is one of the rare Denominations that permits both pedo -baptists and credo -baptists in leadership

01:13:31

And that the Presbyterian and free Presbyterian is really Only signifying the polity for the most part.

01:13:38

Yeah. Well isn't one of the key issues in regard to that is Although we may have a strong conviction

01:13:46

That we must be very careful in the way we treat others who disagree with it

01:13:51

And then of course, I'm not speaking about cardinal doctrines of the faith I'm not talking about fundamentals of the faith that involve the deity of Christ and justification by faith alone and the

01:14:03

Trinity and and we could go on and on the inerrancy of scripture, right, but We don't we need to make sure that we have a godly

01:14:14

Approach to this where we are humble in our reaction to others that disagree with us. Absolutely.

01:14:20

I mean Humility and charity are essential One of the one of the evidences of immaturity

01:14:31

Is when one resorts to personal attacks and one's a

01:14:37

Presbyterian and he's Talking with a Baptist and the

01:14:42

Baptist is we're having discussion about something and he just was all he's an idiot as if Maybe he doesn't have a full or the understanding even of his

01:14:53

Baptist Baptist views But you're kind of lumping in with that statement anyone who would hold to that view

01:15:01

So all of a sudden Spurgeon becomes an idiot because he was a Baptist which is ludicrous or on the other side

01:15:08

You know Calvin's an idiot because he's you know, not of that persuasion that that's a sign of immaturity with and To have to be charitable to be humble to realize that You may even go through changes yourself in your understanding you can be clear and have your convictions, but having a humility that recognizes the fallenness of your own nature and That enlightenment to the scripture is a spiritual work.

01:15:35

It's the Holy Spirit that gives you light and Paul prays for the church for the enlightening of their minds

01:15:43

Because God needs to do it and therefore there's a humility that realizes This is an ongoing work for the entire time of my sojourn here on earth that I'm being enlightened

01:15:53

Therefore I have blind spots. There are things I don't fully grasp and it may be that even where I'm most

01:16:00

Defined as a Christian as a Baptist on matters about that even there. I may be Not particularly understanding something and that may change everything if I did understand and vice versa and when we see our brethren with whom we disagree

01:16:17

And mock them and totally Disassociate ourselves from them one has to wonder

01:16:25

How much do you care about that brother or sister? Learning about these core truths that you cherish if you're just keeping them totally out of Contact with you and preventing any kind of fellowship.

01:16:40

Why are they going to even give consideration to what you? That reminds me of a letter that John Newton wrote to a

01:16:51

Calvinistic brother who had a planned debate with another Arminian brother and Newton wrote the letter

01:17:01

Because he was concerned of the damage of the debate that He would there would not be the charitable

01:17:10

Aspect that needs to be there. He begins by I mean, obviously you're going to win that I mean truth is on your side clearly

01:17:17

So he's agreeing. He's almost telling him. What's the point? You know the truth's on your side. You have a one because truth is that you have the truth

01:17:25

You know the truth you agree with the truth But he cautions him in his spirit and he cautions him against losing the brother

01:17:33

Because of the manner with which he will present what is true and It's if you can find that letter

01:17:40

It's it's somewhere. Anyway, I know Newton wrote it and It's very helpful. Just his ironic spirit that he was trying to encourage this other brother.

01:17:50

Just be careful. You don't get lost in Seeking to win on the matter of truth and you completely lose this brother, right?

01:17:58

And as far as The one of the root causes of this

01:18:04

Hyper separatism I have found in my own life when I have witnessed it amongst my friends and brethren's who might be more prone to That is that there is a fear of men and you even hinted at this.

01:18:15

I believe in your message where Especially amongst my fundamentalist friends.

01:18:20

There seems to be an ongoing Contest but who will be more separatist than the other who will be more fundamentalist than the other and you find that there is a paranoia of being viewed as a compromiser or someone sliding into liberalism just because you are being more ironic with a brother in Christ over over And laying aside for temporary reasons not that you're abandoning a conviction, but you are

01:18:50

Depending upon the circumstance you are laying aside a Secondary or tertiary issue for the sake of fellowship at that moment, right?

01:19:01

Yeah, and the fear of man is a real thing Christ addressed it.

01:19:07

I think it's John 7 He talked about you believe not in me

01:19:14

Because you you receive honor one of another in other words they were Their key desire was to receive honor from each other and that was blinding them

01:19:25

To the evidence that the Messiah was in their midst and they would rather elevate their

01:19:31

Desire to be received by their group Rather than real receive their

01:19:37

Christ. So yeah, the fear of man is always a problem Well, I just want to thank you during your busy schedule for being on this program today

01:19:45

And I just want to let our listeners know if you want to find out more about faith free Presbyterian Church of Greenville, South Carolina, you can go to faith

01:19:54

Fpc org faith Fpc for free Presbyterian Church or thank you so much

01:20:00

Mr. Arman, I look forward to your return to iron sharpens iron. I appreciate your time and kindness brother.

01:20:06

God bless you I hope you enjoyed hearing from Arman Tamasian at this time

01:20:11

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01:24:58

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio.

01:25:07

I'm Eric Nielsen sitting in for your regular host Chris Arnzen We're listening to interviews that Chris has done at the

01:25:16

Foundation's conference and this next interview is an interview that Chris did with pastor

01:25:22

Austin Huggins at the 2019 g3 conference Chris Arnzen here

01:25:28

Manning the iron sharpens iron radio exhibitors booth on the last day of the g3 conference g3 2019 and Right now

01:25:37

I have the honor and privilege of welcoming to iron sharpens iron for the very first time pastor

01:25:42

Austin Huggins of Christ Evangelical Christian Fellowship in Milton, Florida, and he also

01:25:49

Is on the team at first love radio and first love publications The ministries founded by my very dear friend pastor

01:25:58

Joe Jackowitz, but it's Great to have you on iron sharpens iron radio finally for the first time pastor

01:26:04

Austin Huggins It's an absolute blessing to be here brother Chris. Thank you for having me why don't you tell us before we get into your personal testimony, which we

01:26:13

Typically do we have our first time guests give a summary of their Christian testimony

01:26:19

How they were raised within in what kind of religious atmosphere if any they were raised and how

01:26:26

Through Providence our Sovereign Lord raised up circumstances in their lives that drew them to him and saved them

01:26:34

But before we go into that let's hear more details about Christ Evangelical Christian Fellowship Absolutely, so Christ Evangelical Christian Fellowship is a young church

01:26:44

It's a church plant about 30 minutes outside of Pensacola. It is technically non -denominational

01:26:51

But we are baptistic in our doctrines and technically a 1689 second

01:26:57

London Baptist Confession of Faith confessional church praise God and Tell us about something about the surrounding area of Milton and what kind of Opportunities and challenges you have as a sovereign grace believing church there

01:27:11

Well, we're right on that interesting dividing line where The Bible Belt kind of begins to disappear the closer you get to the beach and you have probably more of that relaxed beach mentality a little bit of that atheistic

01:27:28

Retirement fun place is a town slogan Milton, Florida where the buckle fell off the belt

01:27:36

No, but maybe at the next town hall meeting I'm actually more familiar with the beach side.

01:27:44

There's a little town called in the bar down there. That's my hometown that's where I was at before I joined the Navy and Years later, that would be the first place

01:27:52

I would enter into ministry again. So it's only within the past Two years that I've even moved to Milton.

01:28:00

So I'm still getting comfortable there myself and tell us exactly what title or function You have with first love radio first love publications and so on with our mutual friend

01:28:12

Joe Jackowitz Oh, yes, Pastor Joe's a dear brother of mine as far as first love is concerned

01:28:18

I am the vice president of operations over all three arms of the ministry and with yeah,

01:28:23

I think I missed one What's the third? I always forget the name specifically of the first love missions there

01:28:29

It is that's actually the one that I'm the acting director of that that I operate in in that context so my role within first love all is obviously operational so it had deals a lot with the internal communications the

01:28:42

Development internally a lot of the things that happen behind the scenes, but primarily it is the the mission field and in my role as a preacher and bringing

01:28:53

Godly brethren out there to the field and ministering to the local churches and the needs out there, especially in the third world

01:28:59

That's really where my heart is and When I get a chance to share a little of my testimony, you may see some of that come out just how the

01:29:06

Lord providentially Brought it from here. And of course for those of you who listen to Iron Sherpins iron radio via live streaming every day

01:29:15

You will see that the live feed is coming from first love radio. That's right. That's right

01:29:20

What was it last year at this time? Mm -hmm that we had the privilege and the opportunity to bring you on it was actually yeah as a result of this conference the g3 conference of 2018

01:29:32

Not long after that conference. I was giving the affirmation that First love radio had welcomed me to the roster of the lineup on there

01:29:42

And in fact, I am considered very honored to be told the anchor program of first.

01:29:47

That's right That's right, and we're very thankful and very happy to have you You know We know the kind of quality of the interviews that you do the kind of questions

01:29:55

That you provide and the opportunity for unique individuals to be able to share not only testimony but meaningful doctrinal discussions

01:30:03

Discussions that really just don't happen anywhere else, especially at my age and my generation having conversations with people like family radio

01:30:11

Programs like this are vital. The intellectual engagement is is For lack of a better term yes engaging

01:30:19

But it's vital to be able to get into that back -and -forth discussion really prove and try Why people are coming from the areas that they're coming from and when they intersect real legitimate issues that we're encountering right now in Christianity today to have somebody talking about those issues is

01:30:34

We're thankful for it So to have you on first love is it is just as much of a benefit and we're thankful for it to have you praise

01:30:40

God well, let's hear your personal salvation testimony well, I'll begin somewhere in the middle and work out in both directions from there because that makes the most sense, but I Spent five years in the

01:30:53

United States Navy as a submarine sailor a sonar technician aboard fast attack submarines, so That's kind of a niche environment inside the

01:31:04

Navy so it's a little bit different It's not quite what you would call special forces, but it's academically the top 1 % of the

01:31:10

Navy It's considered a an elite force in that context so my relationship to the rest of the

01:31:16

Navy was There are submarines, and then there's targets and those are the two vessels we make

01:31:23

How's the you know in that community? You know you've heard the terminology. You know cuss like a sailor

01:31:29

Well if there was a sailor of the sailors it would be the submarine community You know you take men who operate in that capacity you seal them up in close quarters

01:31:37

Put them underneath the ocean for six months to learn time. You know you're trading cigarettes, and it's like a prison

01:31:43

I could imagine after the first 10 minutes of being in a submarine if I ever had the misfortune of being in one

01:31:51

The first 10 minutes of being submerged under the water might not even Reach the point of submerged in the water, but I can read

01:31:58

I could just think of myself. Let me out of here Okay, this is enough Okay, jokes over get me out of here

01:32:04

You know even after a year of pipeline and training. It's amazing the first time you shut that hatch you

01:32:12

Psychologically that there's an effect sometimes on people and that that that's not not ever happened if I can say that but there's certainly a mentality there that's

01:32:25

Due to the nature of the work in the nature of the job Like any military in general, but especially here.

01:32:31

There's just a promotion of a certain pleasure mentality the moment You do get off the submarine and you get away from being confined for so long

01:32:39

I mean your animal passions unrestrained. You know You know we get into these ports, and you know overseas

01:32:45

And I mean I had been in every bar in Japan Hawaii Guam Philippine Islands, South Korea We'd even been up to the

01:32:53

North Pole and for him, and let me give a disclaimer here Let me remind you folks. This is before his cell.

01:32:58

That's right. Thank you. It's a vital disclaimer You know it and it points the the beautiful work that the the

01:33:05

Lord has done. I mean when you see You know who saw was is the murderer and how he describes himself the amazing thing is and as you go throughout the

01:33:16

New Testament One of the key qualities of the Apostle Paul, but always stood out to me personally Was that he never got over being saved he always lived so to speak the day after salvation

01:33:26

He was always walking in the light of the road to Damascus experience And and he grew he matured there was the sanctification process there was a mind that was being conformed after Christ There was a walk that testified to these truths but it but as far as knowing who he was he never got over the fact that God's grace saved a wretched sinner like me and that impact

01:33:49

In my understanding in my walk. I mean I can't say enough I by God's grace

01:33:54

I've never gotten over being saved and I pray that I can always live like it's the day after my eyes are still freshly open and Praise God there's there's a

01:34:03

God in the heavens who is to be blessed and who is to be feared now Going back earlier. What? What did you know about Jesus Christ before you were saved what kind of?

01:34:12

Religious atmosphere if any where you raised it. You know I'm really without excuse I I grew up in a local church

01:34:19

It was not Doctrines of grace wasn't sovereign grace wasn't Calvinistic. It was a middle -of -the -road

01:34:25

Baptist Church But they they taught the scriptures they taught first by verse

01:34:30

I I heard the gospel I knew who Christ was I knew the work. He had come to do

01:34:35

I understood the cross. I knew about the resurrection I knew about The the truth of the substitutionary atonement is as accurately as they would know to teach it within their context

01:34:48

And and I took the time to learn the scriptures I would sit in my classes as a young man on Wednesday nights

01:34:54

I was you know I would make sure to my sisters came when I got old enough to drive I mean we're talking all the way up through into my teen years.

01:35:01

It would just be that even though That was an avenue that I participated in religiously there was you know in high school public school

01:35:10

You know who I was outside of that. You know see you got into the process of being one way with one people in another way with another and By the time

01:35:19

I ended up in the Navy at 18. I'm no longer under the influence of the Those that are in the church no longer under the influence of you know my parents and who

01:35:28

I am really begins to manifest in a very obvious way and so you're

01:35:34

This rebel against your upbringing and more importantly against Christ and his word you are this name naval officer who is

01:35:47

Did I misspeak or you enlisted I was okay? I came to the rank of petty officer, but I was never commissioned as an off.

01:35:53

Okay, but you're in the Navy and as you're mentioning Your your true carnality gets expressed when you get out of that submarine that you're trapped in how to how did you?

01:36:05

Get introduced or should I say reintroduced to Jesus Christ and his gospel and his word

01:36:10

Well, it would actually be after the Navy so just a clear a good amount of history quickly

01:36:17

You know by the time I got out I was Raging alcoholic,

01:36:22

I'm not a big guy, but I know a fifth of liquor a night Kind of thing you know it's bad when the other drunk sailors look at you and tell you you got a problem

01:36:31

Oh, yeah, I know the experience myself being a former drunkard When I was a young man even in my 20s a lot of my friends in the bars were

01:36:43

Men in their 50s and 60s who are hardcore alcoholics, and they would say the same thing

01:36:48

You're like wow you really got a slowdown on that Right not that any one sin is greater than the other.

01:36:55

It's just they almost if by God's grace. He allows points For our inability for self -restraint to really come so clearly to the surface

01:37:05

That even we in our carnality can no longer justify it I really believe that that's a grace just coming from my own personal circumstances as long as you're able to Maintain that veneer and the polish

01:37:18

How long can you go lying to yourself? Personally I've known it in my own life, and how many times do we see it and people we love around us so for that sake you know what was

01:37:30

Intended for evil the Lord meant for good And as that went on I eventually

01:37:36

Met a woman living with her in adultery left the Navy moved down to back to Florida my mother had

01:37:44

Was diagnosed with lung cancer at the time she was Young she was in her 40s my father had

01:37:53

Divorced my mother back before I was a year old and my stepfather came in When I was very young so I grew up with my stepfather very hard -working man

01:38:02

I cannot condemn him for his work ethic, but he was a raging alcoholic himself very very angry

01:38:09

So it was nothing for every single night for him to come home raging cussing throwing stuff around And you know that I wouldn't see him till late at night

01:38:17

So here my mother my main parental figure the one Person who was disciplined me.

01:38:25

She's sober she You know for all her Misgivings or faults she was a terrific mother

01:38:33

So that was a Pretty difficult blow whenever that first came around So I promised that I would

01:38:40

I would move and get back down there to Florida There's a couple hours away a little commercial shipbuilding group in Panama City That I began to work at and it was actually on that shipyard.

01:38:50

I would later come to salvation in Christ Well tell me exactly the circumstances Well I was

01:38:55

I've been working there for a little while I was very used to the military structure I was very used to a certain element of a chain of command clear directives clear expectations

01:39:06

And I was working at a facility that it kind of began as a mom -and -pop shop and it had just really outgrown itself in a in a big way and But they were still trying to operate like a mom -and -pop shop, so I was frustrated with the organization

01:39:19

I was back down there in the heat hadn't been down there And you know six years, and now I'm out there on the shipyard and boots steel toes

01:39:26

You know working on they're going up five flights of stairs carrying fire extinguishers. I came on as a safety rep and environmental rep for the company and While I was out there

01:39:41

I really began to be dissatisfied with life in general at that point and I was starting to get in Back and forth with with my girlfriend.

01:39:51

We were having disagreements fights. I was going out to the bar I was starting to get worse. I started drinking and driving Which something

01:39:57

I wouldn't even do back when I was in the Navy I had enough sense and I was Just becoming a more embittered and angry person in general.

01:40:05

I was frustrated about the circumstance with my mother Even though it came to a point where they had successfully removed her left lung it looked like she was recovering

01:40:12

And so me and what little Christianity I had in my mind Which was you know even through all this mind you

01:40:18

I thought I was a Christian I was baptized when I was 12 years old.

01:40:24

You know I still prayed before I ate. You know I would cuss I had a filthy mouth. I would go out raging drinking smoking a pack a day living in adultery, but by God.

01:40:32

I'm a Christian And it was just a complete contradiction And I remember at one point

01:40:39

I got a call from my mother finding out that she had just had a conversation with the doctor and She had went back to the hospital.

01:40:48

She had tremendous pain in her legs This was months and months later only to find out that the cancer had returned and but this time

01:40:58

It was terminal And they had told her there was nothing they could do about it It was all throughout her legs

01:41:06

She had a massive tumor growing in her right hip bone growing laterally through her sciatic nerve was excruciating pain

01:41:12

She couldn't eat she couldn't sleep That was really hard,

01:41:19

I remember I like I dropped in my knees in my house after the phone call And I'm just shaking my head in disbelief

01:41:27

Tears running down my face my girlfriend walks up behind me puts her hands on my shoulder and says what's wrong tell her what's going on she says

01:41:35

Well, you're not gonna go through this alone. I love you I'll be with you every step of the way and I remember thinking in that moment even all the midst of my rebellion and sin

01:41:44

Don't pray praise God. I I've got I've got a woman who will be by my side Four days later she walked out on me.

01:41:52

She told me she wasn't having fun anymore That this was difficult things were a little too intense and so she left

01:41:57

Wow and That put me in a big tailspin and of course that was an enormous blessing from God to you

01:42:06

Although it didn't feel that way at the time. You know it's it's it's amazing after the revelation of the truth of God's dealings and God's workings and the sovereignty comes into your life with such force and enough time goes by that you can see what

01:42:18

He's doing but you can thank him meaningfully prayerfully and tearfully for the very most painful

01:42:26

Events in your life realizing his hand was behind it because it absolutely was a blessing I I don't think

01:42:31

I would have been in a place to cry out to the Lord now It's the Lord. He's sovereign. He could have chose some other means but considering the means he used

01:42:38

Had that not occurred I would have maintained a relational crutch because between these two women you had the my heart

01:42:47

These were the two people I trusted. I still you know had a rough exterior You know I was you know chip on my shoulder point to prove proud arrogant

01:42:55

You know sensitive childhood growing up you need that affirmation kind of thing and you know I know this is going out all over To Christ be the glory you know so but you know here

01:43:05

I am just this this mentality you know almost like a Napoleon complex or something And so there were these two ladies that I really let in it was my mother and it was it was my girlfriend and It was the sudden realization that one left me

01:43:22

Because she didn't love me anymore and the other was getting ready to leave me because it didn't matter how much she loved me she

01:43:27

Didn't have power over her own life And I was a very helpless realization

01:43:32

And about a week went by and I was unable to eat. I wasn't purposely trying to starve myself

01:43:39

I just couldn't get anything into my stomach every night. I couldn't sleep I'd wake up after an hour with terrible nightmares.

01:43:47

I was being tormented in you know just emotionally Mentally and and of course the the spiritual dimension is at work, and I'm oblivious to it.

01:43:54

I have no idea what's going on and I'm walking around on the shipyard.

01:44:00

This is this has gone on for a week I've lost water weight. I'm dehydrated. I'm hungry, and I'm just kind of stumbling around remember

01:44:07

I'm the safety rep so if you're not following protocol on the shipyard I'm the guy that has the pleasure of sending you home without a paycheck

01:44:16

And then you hate me the rest of your life, so You don't really have a lot of friends as a safety rep well with that mentality

01:44:23

I'm walking through their safety cones out everywhere stuff's going on cranes are moving huge loads everything and as I'm walking

01:44:31

All the foreman and the supervisors are staring at we Staring at me with this most incredulous look and I'm staring back at them

01:44:38

And you know I'm giving them the the shoulders and the hands up and the what for and then finally One of the big foreman on the yard takes his hard hat off Which is a safety violation break and points up and looking at me like I'm like an idiot and so I look up and I have just walked under a

01:44:57

Suspended crane load 10 feet above my head with a cinder block bigger than this area of the booth

01:45:03

We're sitting here, and I have just massively broken safety code as the safety rep on the yard Wow so my boss gets a call

01:45:11

And next thing I know I'm on the boss. I'm on the phone with my boss. His name is Rick, and you know Rick he's Chewing me out cussing me up and down one side the other and and he's saying you know

01:45:22

What are you thinking, and you know I I just said hey look Rick, and I just told him what was going on And he had compassion on me.

01:45:31

He says all right look just go home Go home. Don't don't come in tomorrow

01:45:37

They come back in Monday. It was a I remember it was a Thursday. He said come back in Monday. Is that good?

01:45:43

I said yeah, I appreciate that So Thursday night. I go home, and I'm sitting there on the sofa

01:45:49

And I'm I'm about ready to go to the to the liquor store, and I really started hating life about that point

01:45:59

I was mad at the world. I was I was mad at God. I was mad.

01:46:05

I was mad at her I was mad at everything And at some point I remember falling out of my chair

01:46:11

I made it to the back room where I'm thinking through all this I fell out of my chair Hit my face in the carpet my legs just open the chair is the most ridiculous position

01:46:20

And as I'm laying there just this Urge this thought whatever you want to call it. You know this idea

01:46:26

Why don't you pray and and I remember I was I was ticked off that the thought had even entered my mind like what good

01:46:32

Is that gonna do I was so cynical I was mad by that point because I felt I had already prayed And you know she had been clean of cancer, and then it came back, so what's the point now?

01:46:43

But it just began to eat at me and not me and I couldn't get rid of it so almost as if Being beckoned and yet coming still defiantly.

01:46:52

I just began to shout at the ceiling You know mad crying snot everywhere. You know shaking my fist heavenward

01:47:00

Saying all sorts of things and somewhere during that process This tremendous sense of conviction out of nowhere

01:47:10

Just began to be laid upon my art and the thought was why should he?

01:47:15

Do anything that I asked him to do why should he give me the time of day and there was this realization that Almost having nothing to do with anything.

01:47:29

I do not love him I have never loved him And I never cared about the things he's ever cared about who am

01:47:34

I and the more I begin to? Wrestle with this while I'm talking the more my tone begins to adjust in my prayers

01:47:40

And the more I begin to contemplate on this and I'm talking through this out loud

01:47:45

And then there's this I just remember this tidal wave this break, and I just began to repent

01:47:51

I began to plead for forgiveness, and I and I just admitted just in the capacity they understood at that time that Lord You don't have to do anything.

01:48:02

I ask you to do. I'm sorry Lord, and and I remember to this day.

01:48:07

I was so desperate by that point I just Lord. I'll you know we always try to make bargains with God at the very

01:48:12

Lord Lord I'll do anything. You know if you'll just take this pain away. I remember verbatim what I said you know I reflect on it

01:48:18

It's but I will sell my house I'll sell everything that I own I'll sit cross -legged out in the middle of the street drinking wheat tea for the rest of my life if you'll just take this pain away, you know just like borderline psychotic and I remember just screaming like that for 45 minutes, and I finally pulled my head out of the carpet and I I just looked around and I'm asking myself.

01:48:43

Why did I just do that? What was that so I go to the bathroom? I'm washing my face, so I can breathe

01:48:48

And I just have this foreboding sense like why did I do that what you know and then the the most terrifying thought?

01:48:55

I've that ever hit me in my life hit me then What if He heard everything.

01:49:03

I just said And what if he's coming to collect? It scared me to death and So I'm walking around my house thinking about it thinking about it

01:49:12

And but I basically come to the conclusion either there was help or there was not help either Christ was exactly who he said he

01:49:17

Was either Christ's death upon the cross was absolutely sufficient for all of the worst of me either

01:49:23

There is help or there's not and I I trusted the Lord based on the faith that the Lord gave me at that time

01:49:29

I remember going to bed. You've got just the sudden urge. I was tired I was exhausted my head hit the pillow on the bed

01:49:36

I remember I've been waking up with nightmares every night this week, but for the first time I sleep the whole night through I don't wake up till morning comes and I have that day off So I mean it's like if you can picture this scene

01:49:47

You know I wake up the window curtain slightly pulled back a ray of sunshine coming across You know the bed spread right in front of me everything's bright and cheery, and I remember standing up and this

01:49:58

Overwhelming realization that I have never seen the world around me before and and it's like everything's in living color something tangibly meaningfully is absolutely different and the immediate thing that I'm aware of is

01:50:11

Exactly what I left off with the night before I remember the prayer I remember that intimately But there was an a new dimension to it that I had no concept of and until that point and it was this idea

01:50:21

That an old verse I had heard way back in Sunday school years before hadn't read it hadn't heard it

01:50:27

In years, and it was that verse I will never leave thee nor forsake thee and It's just rolling around in my head as if it was a fresh statement, and that's when it began to hit me

01:50:38

My girlfriend left because she doesn't love me anymore My mother's leaving because it doesn't matter how much she loves me.

01:50:44

She doesn't have power over her next breath and Everyone on the face of this planet will fit into one of those two categories and God alone is sufficient to make such a claim

01:50:56

Meaningfully if he says he'll never leave me nor forsake me He's the only one with the power over both life and death time and space

01:51:03

Heaven and earth and hell and all that is in it and it was an immediate sense of comfort

01:51:09

And I remember looking around thinking Well, what do I do now? Like what's next? What does this mean?

01:51:14

You know, I knew something had happened I couldn't articulate it, but I remember my very next thought was well, I Guess I should quit smoking

01:51:23

Like like that was the next logical thought like I guess I should quit smoking So I hop in the truck and I decide

01:51:29

I got the day off So I'm gonna go up and get a you know Little electronic cigarette something to start quitting on and that really what that was the last day.

01:51:35

I ever smoked a cigarette I hop in the truck I turned my truck over and immediately the rock and wraps blaring through the truck and it like startles me

01:51:43

I turn it off real quick And that was a that was the last time I turned that off I you know, the Lord just took that element out of my life

01:51:50

He took the liquor away I've been sober ever since that night Wow, you know And that in the

01:51:56

Lord has just day after day done this continual transforming work I remember I would spend my nights in the bar before that now

01:52:03

I would come home from the shipyard exhausted I would barely get my boots off my feet. I'd halfway crawl to the back room, you know

01:52:09

And I would find my by the time I found my Bible in one of the old cardboard boxes a few days later

01:52:14

It was the same every night. I would open it up. I would begin to read I begin to weep Cry and pray and that would last for a couple hours before I fell asleep and I did that every night

01:52:25

I had no friends. It was a new job. It was a new location the one woman I knew there left I had a couple

01:52:31

I had several close friends before that but when they saw me radically Changed it wasn't

01:52:37

I wasn't trying to do anything It was just a natural outflow what the Lord had worked in me by reason of the new birth I was like anathema to them

01:52:44

They wanted nothing to do with me the the supervisors who would gather around the truck to drink on Fridays like if you could get in that circle, it really helped you out on the job

01:52:53

Finally one of the guys two weeks three weeks later comes in says man, where you been you've been standing us up and I said

01:53:00

I Was I was gonna tell him? Hey, you know, I've just been busy, you know Cuz I was kind of I didn't really want to explain to this, you know big grizzly shipyard bubble

01:53:07

You know what happened and I just came under immediate conviction, you know And so I looked at him right in the middle of the safety office on the shipyard

01:53:14

We're both wearing hard hats and I say well now actually here's the issue the Lord Radically transformed my life and I I don't want to drink anymore

01:53:23

That's what happened and he stared at me. Like I was the strangest thing he had ever seen in his life

01:53:29

He goes, okay turns around walks right out the back door and we never had a meaningful conversation Again after that So as the

01:53:41

Lord began to take a whole lot of bad relationships out of my life very very quickly Not that I was trying to push him away

01:53:47

I was willing to talk to them, especially after that point the Lord gave me a lot of grace to begin to speak to people

01:53:52

They were just not interested in hearing about it. So I was driven deeper into isolation

01:53:57

So here's a period where I'm about to be isolated. I'm terrified and rather than go into isolation, you know

01:54:03

I'd rather I want this pain taken away two weeks after that. My mother passes away at the age of 44

01:54:08

My girlfriend never comes back a week after that. My grandfather dies who is the one masculine

01:54:15

Reliable influence I had in my life up to that point and amidst all these losses driven deeper into this

01:54:21

Isolation the Lord is pouring in and teaching me and I drive two hours out.

01:54:27

My mother passed away October 4th 2012 on a Thursday that next

01:54:33

Sunday I walked back into that old middle -of -the -road Baptist Church that I went to when I was 18, you know

01:54:39

Now I got tattoos, you know my they'd probably seen me on social media No, so I it would be embarrassing and I remember wanting to be seen

01:54:46

I remember wanting to walk through and and and to know that there was a repentance that needed to be public

01:54:51

There was a testimony that needed to be seen There was an evidence that needed to be given and I didn't understand the concept of that totally from a biblical perspective, but but the

01:55:01

Spirit was at work and Never I Don't know.

01:55:08

I mean I Remember even in those early days the Lord began to show me some discrepancies that were going on in the local churches that I was in at that time

01:55:17

But I remember he would put he was faithfully put one or two godly

01:55:22

Older Christian men in my life who would begin to put some information in front of me put some verses in front of me

01:55:28

That would were willing to talk to me about spiritual things while everyone else only wants to talk about football And during those first eight to ten months, that's all

01:55:36

I did night after night was in the scripture reading praying Weeping and just repeat and that was my entire life my free time for about ten months after I got saved praise

01:55:46

God Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have The website how they could get in contact with you pastor

01:55:55

Austin Huggins the Christ Evangelical Christian Fellowship I have here Christ Evangelical Fellowship.

01:56:02

Well, that's your Your email address. That's Christ Evangelical Fellowship at gmail .com

01:56:09

Christ Evangelical Fellowship at gmail .com and your website is Christ evangel org

01:56:14

Christ Evangelical org do you have any other? Contact information that you care to give. Yes.

01:56:20

Absolutely. If you would like to get in touch with me through To the church

01:56:25

Christ evangel Christ evangel org you can do it through that venue But if you want to get in touch with me through the ministry of first love whether that's in reference to first love missions

01:56:34

Publications or radio you can reach out to us on those websites first love radio .org

01:56:40

first love publications org and don't make the mistake We're going to first love missions org because that's a completely different Charismatic something else.

01:56:47

Yeah, I I check that out. So that's why it's backwards missions first love org So missions first love org would be our missions website, but you can get ahold of me through any of those avenues

01:56:57

Well Austin, I am so thrilled to finally meet you face to face after a lot of communication over the internet and I'm really excited about What lies ahead for both of us laboring together?

01:57:12

with first love radio and family radio and any other thing that our mutual friend

01:57:17

Joe Jackowitz has his fingers in by God's grace and It has been really a refreshing joy to meet you and speak with you face to face and You far surpassed

01:57:30

Anything that was in my mind not that I had anything negative in my mind But I am just very impressed with you

01:57:37

As a such a vibrant Christian young man and pastor and I look forward to many more opportunities To not only fellowship with you, but to labor with you for the cause of the kingdom.

01:57:48

Amen, brother Thank you for that and I just continue to praise the Lord. I'm thankful to be with you

01:57:53

Whatever the Lord opens up the door in this next chapter. I'm excited to be by your side as well So god bless you brother. Keep up the good work.

01:57:59

Thank you. God bless. I Huggins we're planning to air another interview that Chris did with him at the 2020 g3 conference in This series that will probably be airing in the next few days

01:58:15

Please remember to pray for Chris Arnson's health and quick recovery And as Chris would say I want you to remember that Jesus Christ is a far far greater