July 26, 2019 Show with Heather Kendall on “The Late John G. Reisinger”

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July 29, 2019

July 26, 2019: HEATHER KENDALL, Christian Journalist & the author of “ONE GREATER THAN MOSES”. to discuss “The LATE JOHN G. REISINGER”

00:20: This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the
00:27: Church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us,
00:34: Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of July 2019.
01:28: Many of you may recall that on June 19th of this year, I had a special tribute on the program to the late
01:38: John G. Riesinger, a Sovereign Grace pioneer during the Calvinistic resurgence amongst
01:44: Baptists in the mid -20th century, and I had on the program Pastor Gary George, who is the pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Massachusetts, Gary L.
01:56: Scott, who is an itinerant evangelist, and William Sasser, who is a pastor at the church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee.
02:07: We were supposed to have on the program that day someone who would have been key to the conversation, and she could not be on the program, but providentially we have her on today to continue in that tribute to John G.
02:23: Riesinger. Her name is Heather A. Kendall, and she's also the author of One Greater Than Moses, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Heather A.
02:38: Kendall. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be there. And am I pronouncing your last name correctly?
02:44: Is it Kendall or Kendall? Kendall. Kendall. Great. I thought that's what it was. Well, before we go into the major theme, which is a tribute to the late
02:59: John G. Riesinger, tell us something about yourself,
03:04: Heather, since you are a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have a tradition here.
03:11: Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give us a summary of their salvation testimony. Please let us know what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our
03:24: Sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to Himself and save you.
03:31: I was born into an open Plymouth Brethren church, and my grandfather and great -grandfather were pastors or preachers in that church,
03:43: I should say, in Toronto, Ontario, and my parents were devout
03:49: Plymouth Brethren people. And that church always had an evangelistic meeting in the evenings.
03:57: In the morning, it was the breaking of bread, which really impressed me as a child, sitting there and listening to people praising the
04:06: Lord Jesus for what He'd done on Calvary. And then every Sunday night, there was a gospel presentation.
04:13: And so my parents and I, and my brother and sister, were living in Windsor, Ontario at the time, and a preacher spoke, when
04:21: I was nine years old, that evening about the narrow road to Heaven and the broad road to Hell.
04:30: And it really scared me, and the Holy Spirit spoke to me, and so I asked the
04:39: Lord to take away my sin and forgive me and make me one of His.
04:45: But even at that young age, I was afraid that I was more interested in avoiding
04:51: Hell than the fact that I loved Jesus. And so it took a couple of years of just continuing to go to Sunday school and church and hear the message before I really felt comfortable and wanted to ask my parents if I could be baptized.
05:10: So I asked to be baptized in the Plymouth Brethren Church when I was 11 years old. Praise God.
05:17: Now, you mentioned the open Plymouth Brethren. From what I understand about the Plymouth Brethren, they are traditionally dispensationalists, and most of them would be
05:30: Arminian, even if they would not identify themselves that way, if I'm not mistaken.
05:37: That's true. They were back then, I would say, classical dispensationalists, but being a young child,
05:47: I didn't know about that, and I didn't understand. I just knew about Jesus, and I just loved
05:53: Jesus. And I do appreciate their Sunday school. We were encouraged to learn so many
06:01: Bible verses and Bible stories, and it wasn't until I got to be a young married woman that I learned about dispensationalism.
06:14: Actually, what happened was my husband and I got married, and then he got a job as a librarian up in Sudbury, and we were going to a fellowship church.
06:26: When I was 12 years old, we switched from the Brethren to the Fellowship Baptist Church in Toronto. And so when my husband and I got married, we asked the
06:37: Fellowship to recommend a church up in Sudbury, and so they recommended
06:43: Berean Baptist Church with Mr. Boyd. I don't know if you know him, but he was a preacher who loved the
06:52: Word, and he started quite a few churches in northern Ontario. So anyway,
06:59: I walked into Berean Baptist Church in 1971 with a
07:05: Scofield Bible under my arm. Yes, and it wasn't a fellowship church.
07:11: It was an independent church. It was a Reformed Baptist Church, actually, but I didn't realize it at that point.
07:18: And Mr. Boyd happened to be doing a series on the errors of dispensationalism.
07:28: That's very providential. Yes, yes. And I guess some people might have been so upset and walked away and refused to go to that church, but I could tell that he loved the
07:42: Lord and he wanted people to get saved. And I knew that my grandfather and my parents did, too, so I was really, really upset.
07:53: But my husband, he told me to just go to the
07:58: Word myself, and he didn't try and pressure me or anything.
08:04: He just wanted me to study for myself, and we went up there.
08:13: On the way up there in the car, we decided that we wanted to start a family, and so my husband didn't want me to look for a job.
08:25: And so he was a librarian and he had a good job, and so I had lots of time.
08:31: Because in a one -bedroom apartment, there's only so much cleaning you can do. And so I— Not if I live there!
08:47: And— 24 hours a day you'd be doing that. Yeah. The Lord knows how to work, doesn't
08:54: He? Yeah, amen. So, Mr.
09:01: Boyd was putting out, I think it was a monthly little news booklet called
09:08: The Researcher, and in it, it explained all through the
09:14: Bible the difference between dispensational and not dispensational, and I never could understand when
09:24: I came to study it that there'd be two comings of Jesus. I think when He comes back, it's one coming.
09:33: And so I guess I can't remember how long, maybe a year.
09:39: It took me a while of studying to come to terms with the fact that the eschatology that my parents believed was wrong.
09:52: And my mother thought that I'd been brainwashed by Mr. Boyd. Yes. So, in studying it,
10:06: I really thought that the Scriptures were teaching that we should be looking forward to the new heaven and the new earth, and I just rejected any premillennialism and just looked forward to the coming of Jesus.
10:23: Well, you don't want to be too harsh on that premillennialism. You might have Fred Zaspel remove his endorsement from your book.
10:33: But of course, Fred's not a dispensationalist. He's historic premill, and a very dear friend, and I love
10:40: Fred and hope to get him back on the program. I have interviewed him a number of times, and Fred, if you're listening, we hope to get you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio soon, and I'm looking forward to hearing about new book projects and so on.
10:54: I haven't interviewed Fred since he came out with the biography of B .B. Warfield, so it's been quite a while.
11:03: Well, I think the Lord speaks to each, the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us and teaches us, and I don't want to be down on a premillennialist.
11:12: It's just that when I came out of dispensationalism, what happened was that my husband and I and my family, we moved to North Bay in 1987, 1989, excuse me, and in 1993,
11:36: I was talking to my pastor there in North Bay, and he was a premillennialist, and he thought that the apostolic fathers should be closest to the truth, and so me being an avid student and eager to research,
11:55: I said I would do some research for him and let him know. And so I ended up getting sidetracked, though, with seeing
12:06: Jesus as the promised seed, and when I wrote my first book, A Tale of Two Kingdoms, it was really my way of showing the errors of dispensationalism by showing how
12:18: God planned right through from the beginning of time to the end to send Jesus, and then
12:26: I did some research in the theological libraries in Toronto. My husband was a traveling library person with corrections, and he let me go and travel down to Toronto and stay with his mom so I could go to the theological libraries down there, and so I did a lot of research, and that's two chapters in my book are the research that I did, and 12 years later
12:55: I gave it to my pastor in North Bay, and I told him that's the research, and he said that's it, but it's a book more about Jesus as the promised seed, it's just I had to put those two chapters in.
13:13: And so this, what you're referring to now, is the beginnings of your discovery and learning about what is now called
13:23: New Covenant theology? Yes. I realized in the fall that it was 25 years ago in the fall when
13:33: I had that conversation with my pastor in North Bay and promised to do him some research, and so before that I was busy in the local church,
13:46: Fellowship Baptist Church, and teaching twos and threes and leading a ladies
13:53: Bible study with some other ladies and playing the piano, and the last thing on my mind was to start writing, and when
14:05: I promised to do that essay for my pastor, I ended up researching and spending 12 years going through the
14:16: Bible and just tracing God's plan of salvation right through the whole
14:21: Bible, and I didn't realize that that was called the Progressive Redemptive Salvation Story, and that that's really what
14:30: New Covenant theology was all about. Yes, when I first discovered New Covenant theology, it didn't have that name yet.
14:39: My late wife's pastor, a dear friend of mine who is also now in heaven for eternity,
14:47: Don Blend, First Baptist Church in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.
14:53: Don was a very avid New Covenant theologian even before it had that name, and he used to invite me, even before I was married, to my wife.
15:04: He used to invite me to attend the John Bunyan Conference in Pennsylvania, and this would have been in the late 1980s and early 90s, and even though I was always a member and still am, that is after my conversion to Christianity, I was raised
15:21: Roman Catholic, but I've always been a member of a confessionally Reformed Baptist Church, a
15:28: Covenantal Reformed Baptist Church, but I've always had deep and meaningful and essential friendships with folks on both sides of the
15:40: Covenant debate, and that would include many New Covenant theology folks, and I have very fond memories of the
15:49: John Bunyan Conferences in Pennsylvania where I met Fred Zaspel, and where I met
15:54: Bill Sasser, and where I met Gary George, and of course John Riesinger, to whom we're paying tribute today,
16:03: John G. Riesinger, and quite a number of other folks who have still remained my friends to this day.
16:11: So the book that you are talking about, I mentioned in the opening announcements, it's
16:19: One Greater Than Moses is the title of the book, and let me just read for our listeners a commendation written for this book by Fred G.
16:30: Zaspel, who is a pastor at the Reformed Baptist Church of Franconia in Telford, Pennsylvania, and he's also the executive director of Books at a
16:42: Glance, and Fred says, There is no other book, that I am aware of at least, that attempts to do what
16:50: Kendall has done for us here. If you want to know the history of New Covenant theology, this book is a must -read.
16:59: So that is a very powerful endorsement from somebody as brilliant as my genius friend,
17:06: Fred Zaspel. And if you could, break down a bit, what are the main things that you are attempting to convey here in the book,
17:19: One Greater Than Moses, obviously a reference to Jesus Christ himself, but if you could, tell us what the main points of the book would be.
17:27: Well, it started out because I thought that John Riesinger was
17:34: Canadian. Yes, I know he's not.
17:41: American GI, in addition to being an American, just an
17:48: American, he was also a veteran, an American veteran. It started,
17:53: I think it was in 2013. The last conference that John came to was in 2012.
18:00: The first one that I went to was in 2007, so I'm a real latecomer compared to you.
18:07: But anyway, in 2013, somebody asked me why there were so many
18:13: Canadians there, and I said, because John Riesinger was a Canadian, and then
18:19: I soon found out he wasn't. He did spend nine years as a pastor in Canada, in Ontario, and he influenced quite a few people in Ontario and at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
18:36: And so I knew that he was getting on, and that he had really suffered,
18:49: I think, with trying to make people understand, other believers understand, exactly what
18:55: New Covenant theology is. And so I thought that I would like to be a reporter and report what he did and what
19:06: I found out other people had done in this movement. And I wanted to make the point that even though a lot of Covenant theologians and Reformed Baptists claimed that it was just some newfangled idea,
19:27: I gave a lot of quotes from the early Church Fathers and into the Reformation and that to show that the ideas of New Covenant theology were around, like, almost from the beginning.
19:43: So if you could, for our listeners who are hearing you use this phrase, and hearing me as well use the phrase,
19:51: New Covenant theology, they may be thinking, why are they calling something that when every Christian, since we're in the
19:57: New Covenant, believes in New Covenant theology? What's different about what they're talking about? So if you could, perhaps, give a basic outline or a summary of what
20:06: New Covenant theology is. Well, in my book I say that there's three important pillars to New Covenant theology, and the one is an understanding that the
20:19: Bible is one unit, and it's a progressive story, God's story, through history of how he's going to redeem people.
20:28: And so that's the most basic, I think. And then the second thing is that the
20:36: Church is composed of believers only, and because the
20:41: New Testament teaches that I believe that when people repented of their sin and they joined the
20:50: Church, then they got baptized as believers. And the third point is that since it came out of Reformed theology, and I believe that the doctrines of grace explain how
21:06: God works in salvation to save us, the doctrines of grace.
21:12: So it's those three things, the progressive storyline of salvation, believers only
21:19: Church, and the doctrines of grace. Now, how would that differ from a
21:25: Covenantally Reformed Baptist Christian, a 1689 believer?
21:33: For our listeners who aren't familiar with what I just said, many Reformed Baptists who are
21:40: Covenantal Reformed Baptists adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, which is a summary of biblical teaching, and it is nearly identical with intention to the
21:53: Westminster Confession of Faith, with the exceptions of areas involving church polity and baptism.
22:00: And so a Covenantal Reformed Baptist such as myself, and such as the church where I'm a member,
22:07: Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, we would believe that only truly regenerate people, only the elect, are true members of the
22:16: Covenant, even if some fool us for a while. They may even fool us forever. They may live many decades and die without us never knowing that they were a charlatan, a false professor.
22:28: So we might assume wrongly that people are in the Covenant, but we believe that only the regenerate are truly members of Christ's Covenant, as opposed to many of our
22:42: Paedo -Baptist friends, not all, but many of our Paedo -Baptist friends believe that you become a true member of the
22:49: Covenant by virtue of your baptism even as an infant before you have the capacity to believe in anything.
22:57: But if you could, how would the difference, what would be the nuance or the difference that a new
23:04: Covenant theologian would have in that regard, or any of the other pillars that you mentioned? I think when
23:14: I studied it, and 1644 had basically what
23:20: I said about new Covenant theology. The first London Baptist Confession. But then, the 1644
23:27: Baptist Confession, but then when, because they were under the freedom to be able to make a confession that they believed in, and then
23:40: Charles II in England tried to make everyone conform to the
23:47: Anglican Church, and there was great, great persecution, and so the particular
23:53: Baptist in England felt a lot closer to the Presbyterians than to the general
24:02: Baptists, because of the doctrines of grace. And so they aligned themselves with the
24:08: Presbyterians, and when they wrote the 1689
24:13: Confession, they essentially kept everything that was in the 1644 that the
24:21: Church is composed only of believers, and they did keep the progressive storyline of salvation, and they kept the doctrine of grace.
24:34: So they kept those three pillars that I said were the basics of new Covenant theology, and I think that's why we can fellowship together.
24:44: But the big problem was that in 1644, they recognized that Jesus, that he was the lawgiver of the new covenant, and therefore he was greater than Moses, but when the
25:08: Baptists went to make the 1689 Confession, they kept everything the same as 1644 except the business of law, and so they agreed with the
25:20: Westminster Confession that the law would make a tripart, like with moral, civil, and ceremonial, and they said the moral is the eternal, unchanging law of God.
25:34: And so it's about the law that's being the contention between the
25:41: Reformed Baptists and the ones who came to call themselves the Sovereign Grace Baptists.
25:49: And I don't know if this helps, but I was writing up some questions for the
25:58: Ladies' Bible Study this fall in the
26:04: Gospel of Matthew, and we did four lessons on the
26:09: Sermon on the Mount, and it really struck me what
26:18: I learned when I spent all that time studying the Sermon on the Mount that when
26:26: God made the Ten Commandments for Moses, he was giving laws to mostly a mixed group, right?
26:38: Not very many people were really true believers. It was a mixed group of believers and unbelievers, and so the laws that he gave to Moses were almost like a minimum standard.
26:55: And then what I realized when I was thinking about the Sermon on the Mount, I think the big problem between the
27:01: Sovereign Grace Baptists and the Reformed Baptists is that there's a misunderstanding that all of the laws, all of the
27:14: Ten Commandments, were improved by the Lord Jesus.
27:20: But in fact, God never changes, and I realized that the laws, the Ten Commandments, the part of them that talk about God and not taking him in vain, it's the same.
27:31: And so it is always the same. It's those laws that were for people that Jesus has a higher standard for us as believers.
27:42: That's where I have come from realizing that it helped me really appreciate the
27:50: Old Testament because in the Old Testament, we see how
27:56: God works. We see his character. And I think a danger with some of the people in New Covenant theology might be to just ignore the
28:06: Old Testament, because we're in law to Christ, and Christ is our lawgiver, and so there's a danger of just forgetting about the
28:18: Old Testament. But the Old Testament and Israel, they're the foundation of God's plan.
28:26: Amen. And I think what you are saying is also valuable to correct some of the erroneous views of New Covenant theology that Covenantal Reformed Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists have.
28:48: Actually, since I've had close, intimate friendships on both sides of the Covenantal debate, I've heard people on both sides of the debate grossly exaggerate the problems with what the other side believes over the last 30 years or so of my
29:05: Christian life. And one of the things that my camp, or the camp that I'm in, the
29:11: Reformed Baptists who are Covenantal and Confessional, as far as the second one in Confession, 1689, is that sometimes they have referred to New Covenant theology
29:22: Christians as antinomian. And I've had to correct them by saying, no, they're not lawless or anti -law because they believe
29:32: Christ is the lawgiver and they believe that nine of the commandments in the
29:40: Decalogue are commandments of Christ as well, the Sabbath being the only one that New Covenant theology
29:47: Christians do not believe is a day in the New Covenant because they believe Christ is the
29:53: Sabbath and fulfilled that completely. Am I correct in what I'm saying on there?
29:59: Yep, that's exactly right. As far as the difference between Reformed Baptists and Sovereign Grace Baptists or New Covenant Baptists, it comes down to a disagreement over that one commandment.
30:13: If I'm understanding it right, a Reformed Baptist says that that's in the
30:19: Ten Commandments and it's moral law, therefore we need to keep the Sabbath, but the
30:26: New Covenant people say that Jesus is our ultimate rest and that that Sabbath commandment was,
30:36: I forget the words, like the contract that God made, or the proof that God made that Israel was special people at that point in time.
30:46: Yes, and of course a Covenantal Reformed Baptist would agree that Christ is our true
30:52: Sabbath rest as well, but they would still maintain that there is a day.
30:58: And of course I'm specifically talking about the Covenantal Confessional Reformed Baptists who adhere to the 1689 because there are a wide spectrum of Calvinistic Baptists who call themselves
31:11: Reformed Baptists and they fall on both sides of this debate.
31:17: There are New Covenant theology Christians who are still in churches called
31:23: Reformed Baptists and there are varying views in between even, so it's not like one monolithic group on either side really.
31:35: But we have to go to our first break right now. If you would like to send in a question to Heather Kendall on John Riesinger, who we're paying tribute to today, or should
31:47: I say, if I'm speaking grammatically correct, to whom we're paying tribute today.
31:54: And let me just also remind our listeners who missed our last tribute to John Riesinger in June.
32:03: Reverend John G. Riesinger passed away on Monday, December 17, 2018 at the age of 94, and he is a hero to many who especially are
32:17: Calvinistic Baptists. And although perhaps a greater number of people in the
32:24: New Covenant theology side of the debate that exists amongst Calvinistic Baptists would view
32:30: John as a hero, there are Covenantal Reformed Baptists who also would love to and have paid tribute to this dear departed brother now in glory with Christ, John G.
32:45: Riesinger. And I know personally some who were actually led to Christ through his teaching, and some who were led to the doctrines of sovereign grace through his teaching, even if they remain
33:00: Covenantal in their understanding. By the way, let me bring up something before I go to the break.
33:09: If I'm remembering correctly, and you could correct me if I've got this reversed, but from what
33:15: I remember when I interviewed John, when I did the tribute to his brother
33:21: Ernie Riesinger, after Ernie went home to be with the Lord, and Ernie Riesinger, for our listeners who don't know who he was,
33:27: Ernie Riesinger founded Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I am a member.
33:33: He was amongst those Calvinistic pioneers amongst
33:39: Baptists in the mid -20th century, and he and John eventually came to part company theologically over the issue of the
33:48: Covenant. But if I'm remembering this correctly, Ernie led
33:54: John to Christ, and then John led Ernie to Calvinism, is that right?
33:59: That's right. Okay, got it right. So that is an interesting story.
34:05: In fact, whenever I hear stories about those two, I think somebody should make a movie out of it. Maybe you should be the one that spearheads that.
34:12: But we have to go to our first break right now, and as I said, if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question for Heather Kendall on John Riesinger, or specifically on her book,
34:21: One Greater Than Moses, or on New Covenant Theology, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
34:27: chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
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40:20: The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the
40:31: Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.
40:37: Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the
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41:01: Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century
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41:23: today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
41:39: Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
41:47: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
41:56: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
42:12: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
42:24: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.
42:38: Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
42:46: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
42:58: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
43:06: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised
43:14: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
43:23: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
43:28: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
43:37: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
43:44: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com Welcome back, this is
43:50: Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in today, our guest today is Heather A.
43:56: Kendall and she is the author of One Greater Than Moses, also a personal friend of the late
44:04: John G. Riesinger who is a mutual friend of mine. We both have very fond memories of this dear brother in Christ who went home to be with the
44:13: Lord for eternity in December of 2018. This is the second time we're paying tribute to John on the program.
44:22: We had another tribute with three different pastors whose lives were radically blessed and transformed by the life and ministry of John G.
44:35: Riesinger and we were supposed to have Heather A. Kendall on that program. She could not participate that day in June, so we invited her to be on her own tribute to John Riesinger and also to discuss her books and so on.
44:52: If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com Give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
45:02: USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
45:08: We do have a listener who's a first -time listener and it happens to be the nephew of the late
45:18: John Riesinger and he's also a fellow member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania where I am a member.
45:26: Jonathan Riesinger in Carlisle, Pennsylvania sends in a question. This is his first time sending in a question to my show, that I can remember anyway.
45:35: What is the main sticking point most folks get hung up on with New Covenant theology?
45:43: I think it's a discussion of the law. Exactly what law are believers under?
45:51: Is it just the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses or is it all of the commandments that are in the
45:59: New Testament as well as what Jesus says personally? That seems to be the biggest problem that I can see, is the law.
46:11: Now, as I brought up, when I was moderating the question and answer session at the most recent
46:17: John Bunyan conference in Franklin, Tennessee, just a number of weeks ago, where I first met you and made some other first -time connections and so forth and also saw some dear old friends.
46:32: But when I was moderating that question and answer session with the audience that the panel of speakers were having, the conference speakers,
46:40: I brought up that in my experience, one of the reasons that I have always believed since I was a
46:49: Christian, since this division between Covenant Reformed Baptist and New Covenant Reformed Baptist or New Covenant Theology Baptist, even though I believe the differences, they're not trivial to ignore or fluff off as nothing, but they are,
47:06: I believe, in the minds of some, exaggerated to the point where they view the other side as heretics, they view the other side as people we cannot share fellowship with and there's all kinds of exaggerated responses.
47:21: But in my own life, when I viewed the lives of people on both sides of the debate, it seems to boil down to how one observes
47:31: Sunday. In fact, it's interesting, although I know that the
47:38: New Covenant folks are in a bit of a disagreement with each other over whether or not there is anything special about Sunday.
47:50: Some would say we could gather for corporate worship any day of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, it doesn't matter.
47:58: Others would say, well, Sunday does have a place of significance as the Lord's Day and the apostolic example is that we meet on the first day, so we should do the same.
48:10: But as far as how that day is observed, I have very rarely seen any significant difference even in that way, other than there are some
48:22: New Covenant folks who would have no problem going to a baseball game.
48:29: In fact, probably none would have problems going to a baseball game. The difference is whether they would or not.
48:35: Some might view it as a stumbling block or what have you. Some would work on Sunday, even if it was not what
48:47: Covenantal Reformed Christians have called works of necessity or works of mercy.
48:55: Like, for instance, a nurse or a doctor would be under both categories of works of necessity and mercy, and you have police officers, you have people in the military, and you could go on and on and on with lists of people that even your strictest
49:13: Sabbatarian would say, that person is permitted to work. But very often, the folks that I've known who are
49:22: New Covenant Theology Baptists, they still would not work on a
49:29: Sunday because they just want to reserve that time to fellowship with the Brethren, they want to make sure that they don't forsake the assembling of the
49:36: Brethren, so on and on. So would that be really the core of it, though, is the difference in how Sunday is observed?
49:43: Even if in theological terms, when our apologists and theologically -minded pastors and regular
49:54: Christians, when they are getting into a theological debate or discussion, these things may be far more serious than the way
50:08: I am simplifying them. But in practicality, in the way that we live and breathe and seek to obey
50:16: Christ, isn't that really the difference, how we observe Sunday? From what
50:22: I know of some Reformed Baptists that I was really good friends with up in Sudbury, and my own personal beliefs,
50:32: I don't think there's really too much difference about how we observe
50:38: Sunday, or that we should observe Sunday. I believe that when
50:47: God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, that he just didn't do it randomly, and he knew that our bodies needed rest, and we needed a day to specifically worship him.
50:59: And so I think that we should have one day in the week, and in the
51:05: New Testament Church it seemed to be Sunday, although back then
51:12: I think they worked in they, and they had to do it at night. And I remember years ago, my good friend, who was a
51:22: Reformed Baptist, and she made the point that we shouldn't be doing anything on Sunday afternoon.
51:30: Like, we shouldn't go swimming or let the children play outside, and she was quite strict.
51:37: And I don't feel quite that strict, but I think that it's wise to set this one day apart to remember the
51:47: Lord and to rest. Yes, and you seem to give Sunday more significance than some of my friends who are
51:56: New Covenant Theology Baptists, because there are some that we even heard some of our brethren and friends at the
52:04: John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee say that it could be any day of the week. I've heard that, too.
52:10: You're right. They say it could be any day of the week, or God doesn't even insist on any day.
52:20: Like, I've heard the whole spectrum, you're right. But personally
52:25: I think it is good to have one day a week, although I don't see anything wrong with going swimming on Sunday afternoon, and I've done that if I'm at my cottage.
52:38: But the point is to be setting aside a day to remember the
52:44: Lord. Right. If you could turn your air conditioner on, even in a strict
52:50: Sabbatarian home, I would think that jumping in a cold swimming pool on a hot summer day would be okay, too.
53:01: But we have to go to our midway break right now. In fact, let me read another question that came in, and you can answer it when we come back.
53:13: We have a question from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.
53:20: And let me just enlarge Grady's question, because it's on a very tiny font on his email.
53:27: And while I'm doing that, I'll give you the email address again, for those of you who are listening. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com
53:34: if you want to send in your own question. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com
53:41: Now, Grady may have written this before you went into an explanation already, but if there's anything you want to add when we come back from the break, this is
53:51: Grady's question. Another great show, Chris. Kendall, can you explain the difference between the
53:57: Reformed Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists in their view of New Covenant theology?
54:04: So if there's anything you care to add on that. Well, you actually didn't get into much of your understanding of Presbyterianism that I remember, so maybe you could bring up that primarily when we come back.
54:15: But if anybody else wants to join us with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
54:22: chrisarnsen at gmail .com And remember that this is a longer than normal break.
54:28: Don't be puzzled when it's going on a lot longer than you thought it might if you were a new time or first time listener.
54:35: This is the time of the program where Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a prerecorded format in morning drive and in the evening, they require a longer break in the middle of our show because they use that time for their own public service announcements and commercials to follow
54:55: FCC regulations. They have to localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. 90 .1
55:01: FM, Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida. But if you're listening to Iron Trump and Zion Radio dot com anywhere in the world where we air our own commercials globally, take this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.
55:18: Because we rely upon our advertisers to exist. The money that they provide for us is essential.
55:25: So please, to ensure that they will remain our advertisers, please patronize them as often as you can.
55:32: And as heavily as you can. But also use this time to write down questions for Heather Kendall on New Covenant Theology, on John G.
55:42: Riesinger specifically. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
55:48: chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
55:55: Chris Arnson, host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
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56:21: That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis.
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57:26: I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows in their affliction.
57:37: In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor, small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called
57:42: Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.
57:48: What was I to do? Could I just say, God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.
57:54: As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.
57:59: The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.
58:06: If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.
58:15: In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838
58:23: Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443. Or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com.
58:31: Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443, or bbclaurel .com.
58:40: Thank you. One sure way all
58:47: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use
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01:00:12: Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Hi, this is
01:00:18: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
01:00:26: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:00:38: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:00:47: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised
01:00:54: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:01:03: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:01:08: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:01:17: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:01:24: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the
01:01:37: Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.
01:01:57: I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
01:02:05: New York debates. I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the
01:02:15: Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
01:02:21: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment with Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
01:02:27: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:02:34: That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:02:41: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:02:57: Let me just remind you that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
01:03:05: one of our sponsors, they are the ones that are responsible every time a listener wins either a
01:03:13: New American Standard Bible as a first -time listener, or they win a book that is being given away by an author that we happen to be interviewing like today.
01:03:27: And by the way, folks, all of you who have sent in questions so far, you have received, or will receive,
01:03:33: I should say, you have won and will receive a new copy or free copy of One Greater Than Moses by our guest,
01:03:43: Heather Kendall. So if you give us your full mailing address, that will be shipped out to you free of charge by cvbbs .com.
01:03:52: And also, Jonathan Reisinger, since he's a first -time questioner, he also gets an
01:04:00: ASB Bible for free. But please keep in mind that whenever you are looking for a gift for someone or to edify yourself, increase your own knowledge, and build a biblically faithful library, cvbbs .com
01:04:18: is an ideal place to go. In fact, one of our other sponsors, Solid Ground Christian Books, is a publisher, and cvbbs .com
01:04:28: is a book distributor. There's a big difference there because you can help both of our sponsors at the same time, both
01:04:34: Solid Ground Christian Books and cvbbs .com, by going to Solid Ground Christian Books' website at solid -ground -books .com.
01:04:45: Make a long list of the books there published by Solid Ground Christian Books, then go to cvbbs .com
01:04:52: and order them there. Because cvbbs .com carries a very large selection of books published by Solid Ground Christian Books, and if they don't have something in stock that you are ordering specifically, they will order it for you.
01:05:06: This way you help out both of my sponsors at the same time. And, of course, cvbbs .com has an assortment and an inventory that far extends beyond just Solid Ground Christian Books.
01:05:19: They offer books published by any theologically reformed or Calvinistic publisher.
01:05:27: So you will be blessed by the finest and biblically sound literature at cvbbs .com.
01:05:32: Please don't forget that. We just have a few special announcements to make regarding the events that are coming up in the near future that I hope that you, or at least most of you, can attend.
01:05:49: At least one or some or all of these. The first is coming up very soon,
01:05:54: August 1st through the 3rd, in the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, August 1st through the 3rd, and that is the
01:06:03: Fellowship Conference New England. Those days of the week, by the way, are Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, August 1st through the 3rd.
01:06:10: And my friend, Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, is the one that spearheads this conference every year in New England, all the way on the other side of the country from where he lives in Texas.
01:06:23: It's in Maine. And the speakers this August include
01:06:29: Pastor Anthony Mathenia, who is the pastor of Christ Church in Radford, Texas.
01:06:34: He's also a pole washer's pastor and a really excellent speaker. As I said before,
01:06:41: Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. He is one of the speakers. Another one of the pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, is
01:06:49: Pastor Lee Dodd. He is on the roster there. He is also going to be my guest on Wednesday, the 31st of August.
01:06:56: And last but not least, Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.
01:07:05: And he's also an author and an excellent speaker. And he was just my guest, let's see, it was on Tuesday, the 23rd of July, he was my guest.
01:07:16: Always love having Nate back on. But if you want to register for this conference, I'm sure you'll be richly blessed.
01:07:24: Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,
01:07:30: and then we'll have all the information that you need to attend. Then after that, well actually kind of overlapping that, my friend
01:07:39: Dr. Tony Costa will be speaking in Texas, Hockley, Texas, to be more specific, at the
01:07:46: Church at Friendship. Dr. Costa is going to be speaking at a conference hosted by the
01:07:53: Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, the institute that also hosted the last
01:08:03: John Bunyan conference in Franklin, Tennessee that I attended, and where I met my guest Heather Kendall, which was actually held at the
01:08:12: Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee. This is going to be held August 2nd through the 4th, that will be
01:08:21: Friday through Sunday, and at the Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas. And the themes that Dr.
01:08:27: Costa will be speaking on include the meaninglessness of life without God, the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, the
01:08:37: Promised Land and the New Covenant, and what is New Covenant Theology, and the
01:08:42: Glorious New Covenant. That's August 2nd through the 4th at the Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas.
01:08:48: If you'd like to register for that conference, go to churchatfriendship .org Then, after that, in September, in fact, specifically
01:08:59: Saturday, September 7th, at 6 .30pm, my friend Pastor Bruce Bennett of the
01:09:06: Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is going to be debating Roman Catholic apologist
01:09:12: Matthew Luke Broderick. The theme of the debate is, No, let me re -read that.
01:09:22: And, as I said, that will be Saturday, September 7th, 2019, at 6 .30pm
01:09:30: at the Word of Truth Church, Farmingville, Long Island, New York. If you want more details on this debate, call 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614 or you could go to wotchurch .com
01:09:48: That's W -O -T, which stands for Word of Truth. wotchurch .com
01:09:53: is the website. Then, in December, I'm packing up my bags and heading back to my old stomping grounds in New York City to the
01:10:01: Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com This is a very important and excellent conference, and I love
01:10:10: Manhattan during the Christmas season, and so what a better time to attend a conference being held
01:10:16: Friday and Saturday, December 19th and 20th, just a week before Christmas, in the heart of the
01:10:23: Christmas season, in the heart of Manhattan, December 19th and 20th, Thursday and Friday. The Foundations Conference speakers include
01:10:30: Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, founder of One Passion Ministries, Paul Washer, one of the greatest preachers alive,
01:10:37: Rev. Jeff Thomas, also a phenomenal preacher and teacher and author, Rev.
01:10:42: Armand Tomasian, an extraordinary young pastor who has gifts and abilities far beyond his youth and I believe is going to be a household name amongst
01:10:50: Reformed Christians over the next decade. He is so powerful. Richard Caldwell Jr. and Anthony Quigley.
01:10:55: I have not yet heard either of these brethren preach, but since the sermonaudio .com
01:11:03: selected them, I'm sure they are absolutely superb. If you'd like to register, if you are a man in ministry leadership, by the way, this is a conference for men in ministry leadership.
01:11:11: They can only hold less than 200 people in this venue, so they restrict it to men in ministry leadership.
01:11:17: Go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com to register.
01:11:24: Then in January, more specifically, January 16th through the 18th, that's a
01:11:30: Thursday through Saturday, January 16th through the 18th, 2020, I'm going to be packing up my bags and heading down south again to attend one of my favorite conferences of all, the
01:11:41: G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory. This January's theme is on Worship Matters, a very important topic.
01:11:51: Speakers include Kosti Hinn, the nephew of the notorious heretic Benny Hinn.
01:11:57: Kosti has renounced and repented of the word -of -faith heresies that his uncle has helped to make popular, and he spends much of his time outside of his own pulpit in California seeking to warn people and expose the word -of -faith heretics for the deceptive, dangerous, deadly, and damning people that they are.
01:12:23: So please make it an effort to come hear Kosti speak on this subject of worship matters.
01:12:30: He is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist in California. Other speakers include Darrell Bernard Harrison, a new team member at the
01:12:38: Grace to You ministry, the ministry of John MacArthur. David Miller, who is an extraordinary old -school preacher.
01:12:44: Derek Thomas, a name very well known to most Reformed Christians. My dear friend Dr. James R.
01:12:50: White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, whom I have known since 1995 and have called my friend.
01:12:56: He is one of my closest friends, and I always look forward to hearing him any time I have the opportunity. Dr. Joel Beeky, another friend of mine since the 1990s, president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
01:13:09: Again, we have both Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer on the roster at this conference. Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You.
01:13:18: Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C.
01:13:24: Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, which is the
01:13:32: Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention. Vodie Baucom, one of the most powerful preachers on the planet
01:13:39: Earth today, and more. And the addition of John MacArthur has me so excited.
01:13:47: The world -renowned Bible teacher, preacher, and author, John MacArthur, is also on this lineup. And I have never been in the same room with John MacArthur before, so I'm looking forward to this.
01:13:56: He is one of my all -time favorite preachers and teachers, and a modern -day hero of mine.
01:14:02: If you want to attend this conference, go to G3conference .com. G3conference .com, click
01:14:09: G3 2020, and you'll have all the details that you need. And I strongly urge you, if you have a business, a parachurch organization, or some other event or organization that you want to advertise or promote amongst a large number of Christians, the
01:14:28: G3 Conference is ideal because they have over 5 ,000 people attending this every year. I believe,
01:14:33: I am very confident, with John MacArthur added to the roster, they're going to have over 6 ,000 people.
01:14:40: And if you want to have an exhibitor's booth there to represent your business or parachurch organization or whatever it is you do, if you want to register for a booth before they run out of room,
01:14:53: I would register for a booth as well if that applies for you. So go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com,
01:14:59: and not only register to attend, but if it applies to you, register for an exhibitor's booth as well.
01:15:05: You'll be glad you took me up on that recommendation. I will have an exhibitor's booth there as well, and I hope that yours is near mine if you register for one.
01:15:14: Now, last but not least, if you love Iron Trump and Zion Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, please donate as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can at G...
01:15:23: I almost gave the G3conference website. At ironsharpandzionradio .com,
01:15:30: click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing so.
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01:15:43: You can also mail in a check via snail mail the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on the screen. Make your checks made payable to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.
01:15:53: Please always remember never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.
01:16:01: Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy to give to Iron Trump and Zion Radio. Those two things are commands of Holy Scripture providing for your church and your home.
01:16:11: Providing for my show is not a command of God, obviously, but if you are financially blessed, above and beyond, your ability to obey those two commands, you have extra money for benevolent reasons, for recreational purposes, you have money lying around collecting interest, well, please, if you love the show, you don't want it to go away, please donate as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can, even if it's just one time.
01:16:34: By going to ironsharpandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. And if you are not a member of a local
01:16:43: Bible -believing church and you're not even perfectly looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, please rectify that situation.
01:16:50: I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I've already helped a number of people in our audience find churches near them, either where they live or where they're going on vacation, or where their family, friends, and loved ones live, so I can help you as well.
01:17:06: And if we don't have an exact match where you live or where you're vacationing, I can at least refer you to churches that might know where you can go.
01:17:15: So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church or something similar in the subject line.
01:17:23: If you want to advertise with us, we really could use your advertising dollars, so as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:17:32: and put advertising in the subject line. That is also the email address where you can send in a question for Heather Kendall on New Covenant Theology, or specifically on John G.
01:17:42: Reisinger, a hero to many Calvinistic Baptists who just went home to be with the
01:17:47: Lord in December of 2018. Our email address for questions for Heather Kendall is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:17:56: chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Heather, you may recall before the break we had
01:18:03: Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who is also an avid listener to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and a very generous supporter financially of this program.
01:18:13: He asked, another great show, Chris. Kendall, can you explain the difference between the
01:18:18: Reformed Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists in their view of New Covenant Theology?
01:18:24: And it seems like he's asking what Reformed Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists both think about something that is not what they claim for themselves.
01:18:34: I don't know if I'm understanding Grady correctly, but it sounds like he's asking what do Covenantal Christians, both
01:18:41: Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists, think of New Covenant Theology, but I might be wrong.
01:18:47: Maybe you could just focus on, I mean, on the
01:18:53: Reformed Presbyterians, since we've already discussed Reformed Baptists at great length. Their view would be even more different because of the fact that they believe in infant baptism, although there is still cherished fellowship and friendship between the
01:19:08: Reformed Presbyterians and most Calvinists, but anything you have to say. Yeah, you're right.
01:19:15: The big problem is infant baptism, but before I explain it, just let me say that I realize that Presbyterians believe in God's sovereign grace and salvation, and that they've accepted the
01:19:30: Lord, and that they are believers, and they're going to be in Heaven. But the big problem is the way that they put the
01:19:41: Old Testament and the New Testament together, and so it flatlines
01:19:47: Scripture because the Reformers lived at a time when they were used to state churches.
01:19:55: In fact, I think Satan has used the combination of religion and state right from the beginning of time, and the church ended up following that rule, and the
01:20:09: Reformers, although they were wonderful in understanding salvation, the truth of salvation, and Jesus alone, and God's sovereignty and salvation, the problem is that they did not give up the union of church and state, and so that means that they would keep the flow of ideas from Israel to the church and back and forth, and so on.
01:20:38: Specifically, they allowed circumcision in the church. It became infant baptism, and also the state had the right to enforce
01:20:48: God's law. But I think these days, most Presbyterians, it's just a business of circumcision, becoming infant baptism, because they believe that their children that are born are part of the covenant, and therefore that they should be baptized.
01:21:11: And I realize that they know that not all of them are going to be saved. They prove themselves as they grow up.
01:21:19: But it's because of this infant baptism that John Vance first wrote that article back in 1977,
01:21:28: Is There a Covenant of Grace? And what he was pointing out was this problem of infant baptism, because as Baptists, we believe what's in the
01:21:41: New Testament is that you repent, and then you turn to Christ, and to show that your faith is real, you become baptized as a believer.
01:21:53: So I think that's what the big difference is, and that's a serious difference, because it really bothers me that some children that have been baptized and they don't really trust the
01:22:06: Lord have a false security that they're going to be okay when they die. Yes, and of course, we can't forget as Baptists, especially
01:22:15: I think in areas like the Bible Belt of the United States, there are many
01:22:21: Baptists who are raised to think that they are Christians also, even if there is no evidence of a new birth in their life, a new heart.
01:22:31: You have a very similar circumstance that you have with many
01:22:37: Pado -Baptist churches and denominations, where children in the
01:22:42: South, the Midwest perhaps, are viewed by their parents as Christians just because their daddy, their great -granddaddy, and going back perhaps centuries in their family, have been
01:22:58: Baptists or even pastors. They think that that child or their children are automatically saved.
01:23:05: They tell them to get baptized when they turn 12 or so, even if there's no life change, even if there's no real, genuine repentance and faith.
01:23:12: So we can be guilty of that too. It's not just the Pado -Baptists, but since I disagree with infant baptism,
01:23:19: I obviously think it's a more serious error or problem. I agree with you.
01:23:25: This easy beliefism in the church and parents, they just hope that their children are going to be saved.
01:23:34: The children have grown up in Sunday school and they hear all the Bible stories, and so they have a head knowledge, but that doesn't mean that it's in their heart.
01:23:44: In their heart, they can still be rebellious sinners, and that's the problem.
01:23:50: But it still doesn't take away from the other. They're both wrong situations. Amen. I agree.
01:23:59: But as I've said before, and as you even said, we cherish our friendship with our
01:24:04: Presbyterian and Pado -Baptist brethren. I've had many Presbyterian and Pado -Baptist guests on my show, and I have learned greatly from many
01:24:14: Pado -Baptists, some of whom I would consider my heroes, like Sinclair Ferguson, and even heroes from the past.
01:24:20: There are many, like John Calvin himself, and so on. I believe that, if I'm not mistaken, were not
01:24:28: Ernie and John Riesinger Presbyterian before they became
01:24:33: Baptists? Yes, if I remember correctly. They went to Sunday school because their parents made them, his mother made them, but then when
01:24:48: Ernie got saved, he was annoyed at always being presented with the
01:24:54: Gospel, so he actually moved away from Pennsylvania for a while. And by the time he moved back, his two brothers were saved, and they took him to a meeting where a butcher was preaching, and the
01:25:11: Holy Spirit spoke to him, and he got saved. And we do have
01:25:16: C .J. and Lennon Hearst in Long Island, New York, who wants to know, I'm sorry if I missed this, if you said it earlier, but how did you actually come to know
01:25:27: John Riesinger and become a friend of his? Well, because of my book,
01:25:34: A Tale of Two Kingdoms, that I wrote, it was published in 2006, and I was at a banquet for Toronto Baptist Seminary, and my friend, who's a pastor,
01:25:47: Jim Parker, I think he must have read my book, and he said that you should go to the John Bunyan Conference, and I'd never heard of it.
01:25:55: And so I asked my husband if we could go, and so we went to that first conference in 2007, and I took my book, and I gave it to Pastor John, and I asked him to look at it, and he said that it was
01:26:10: New Covenant theology because of the progressive historical timeline of salvation, and so I was just so excited because I hadn't heard those words, and I was glad that he was supporting me, and I just felt like I was finally in with some people that understood how
01:26:30: I understood the Bible to be interpreted. And so we just kept going every year after that until the last one was in 2014.
01:26:41: And then, of course, they started again this year in Franklin, Tennessee.
01:26:48: Yes, that's right, yeah. Great, and thank you, CJ. You've also won a free copy of One Greater Than Moses.
01:26:57: Please email me your complete mailing address so that cvbbs .com
01:27:03: can ship that out to you as soon as possible. We have
01:27:09: Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks,
01:27:17: Can you tell us the history of what would be now called New Covenant theology prior to John Riesinger and his fellow believers in this system?
01:27:28: Was there a belief present that you know of in church history that may date back centuries, perhaps even simultaneous with the
01:27:37: Reformers, or is this more of a new phenomenon that first came onto the scene in the 20th century?
01:27:45: No, it's right from the beginning. There were glimpses of a belief in New Covenant theology that the
01:27:54: New Testament takes precedence over the Old Testament, and so in my book,
01:27:59: One Greater Than Moses, I quote up quite a few of the early church fathers to show what they believed about the fact that the
01:28:11: Old was gone and the New replaced it, and then at the time of the
01:28:17: Reformation, about just shortly after the Reformation, the
01:28:23: Anabaptists in Switzerland went out with their newfound faith, realized that the
01:28:35: Bible was progressive in salvation, and so they were really one of the first groups that would have
01:28:47: New Covenant theology, although they never used those words. And then it was the culmination of them, and then a hundred years later, the particular
01:28:56: Baptist in England was believing in the doctrines of grace, and so it was the uniting of those two ideas in the particular
01:29:07: Baptist that led to the ideas of New Covenant theology, but nobody called it
01:29:16: New Covenant theology, and it didn't really come to the fore until 1977 when
01:29:22: John Zenz wrote Is There a Covenant of Grace?, and the impetus of that article was like what
01:29:31: I just was talking about, that the Church is made up of believers, not non -believers and believers, and it caused a terrible stir among the
01:29:44: Corn Baptists and Presbyterians, and they had some conferences, and John Riesinger and Gary Long and Ron McKinney and John Zenz, those four men were the major promoters and discussors of the ideas that really you find in the book of Hebrews, and it was
01:30:10: John Zenz and John Riesinger that first used the words
01:30:16: New Covenant theology. So that was in about 1980. Now you mentioned the particular
01:30:23: Baptists before, a lot of them though were more on the covenantal side, they were confessional in regard to the 1689
01:30:31: London Baptist Confession, which is a covenantal confession, so the particular
01:30:38: Baptists weren't all unified on the
01:30:43: New Covenant understanding, there were obviously many of them that were confessional. Yes, that's true, they were.
01:30:51: But some still, like John Bunyan, for example, he had more of a
01:31:00: New Covenant theology understanding of the law. And I was just reading
01:31:06: Michael Aiken's article in the Barnabas here in Ontario, and he was in jail for 12 years during the time when
01:31:16: Charles II... That was John Bunyan, not Michael Aiken. John Bunyan was in jail for 12 years because of the terrible persecution that the king of England, Charles II, put on all of the believers that weren't
01:31:36: Anglicans. And his writings showed what we would call a
01:31:42: New Covenant theology understanding. So the thread of it is there all through church history.
01:31:49: Now one thing I'm having a hard time understanding is you mentioned that when
01:31:56: John Zenz made a declaration that only believers are truly in the covenant, well
01:32:04: Reformed Baptists also believe that, we don't believe that unregenerate children are truly in the covenant.
01:32:11: We believe in a regenerate covenant. We believe that since Christ mediates on our behalf, he mediates on behalf of everyone that's truly in the covenant, that no one in the covenant truly is going to hell.
01:32:29: Everyone that is in the covenant is going to heaven. That means obviously that everyone will be regenerate.
01:32:34: So I'm not sure I'm following you on why the Reformed Baptists would have been upset by that aspect.
01:32:41: I think it was the Presbyterians that... Right, I can understand how many would be, yeah.
01:32:47: Yeah, but it just caused... I'm not sure why the
01:32:57: Reformed Baptists and the Sovereign Grace Baptists, they have this difference, and it's all about the law, isn't it?
01:33:11: And I know that both sides believe in believers' baptism, and all those three pillars that I said are part of New Covenant theology, but it's just they didn't want to discuss it.
01:33:28: That's what I learned when I did the research for my history. Yeah, and unfortunately
01:33:33: I have met, as I said earlier, I've met people on both sides of the argument or the debate on the covenant who have wrongly been overly harsh with their brothers about these differences and have acted in an aloof fashion, and that's something that's inexcusable for those not only who are born again and indwelt with the
01:34:00: Holy Spirit, but also those that recognize the lowly state of man and that we owe everything to God.
01:34:09: 100 % of our salvation and any blessing that we gladly and joyfully receive and experience is owed all to God, so we have to be, more than anyone, the most humble of men, don't we?
01:34:25: Yes, and I think it's really dangerous if any one of us think that we understand everything because we're not
01:34:33: God, and we're on this road of sanctification and just learning to be more like Jesus, and the
01:34:42: Holy Spirit's working in us. So that's why in the introduction of my book
01:34:48: I said you have to be very careful when you're talking to other believers. Are you standing on the truth or not?
01:34:59: Amen. Amen. And when I'm saying that we need to be humble, I'm also not saying that we are to hold to our convictions loosely and lightly and act as if they don't matter.
01:35:12: I have arranged theological debates since 1995, primarily with my friend
01:35:18: Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is a Reformed Baptist, but also with Dr. Tony Costa, who is one of the speakers at the
01:35:26: John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee. And so I obviously believe that doctrine matters, theology matters, it's not trivia.
01:35:36: So we have to pray for God to give us the rare combination, it seems, of passion and concern and diligence when it comes to theological purity and theological understanding and having a deep knowledge of the
01:35:58: Bible and what Christ expects of us and what Christ teaches us, without at the same time being a humble person, a person who's willing to listen to others, a person who isn't quick to fly off in a rage and to cut off fellowship with those for whom
01:36:18: Christ actually died. I mean, there's not too many people on either side of this debate that I would...
01:36:27: In fact, there's nobody on either side of this debate that I've ever heard would deny the salvation of those on the other side.
01:36:34: So when we're talking about our brothers and sisters in Christ who were purchased by the blood of Christ, we have to be very careful as to not to be too harsh and aloof and off -putting and distancing, etc.
01:36:50: Well, I agree. We have to be teachable, too. Yes. And by the way, I'm not 100 % certain about whether or not
01:37:00: John and Ernie ever quote, quote, made up in any meaningful way.
01:37:06: Unfortunately, they distanced themselves from each other for decades over their division over the covenant, even though both were
01:37:13: Calvinistic Baptists. Do you know if there was any meaningful reconciliation before Ernie went home to be with the
01:37:21: Lord? Because he went first. And I do know that John wrote a beautiful eulogy for his brother
01:37:29: Ernie, but I don't know specifically about any kind of reconciliation before Ernie went home to be with the
01:37:35: Lord. I don't think there was a reconciliation, but I just know that John knew that Ernie was really a believer and he was in heaven.
01:37:46: Amen. Yes, I know. In fact, as I said earlier, he paid tribute to Ernie on my show. Yeah. Even though they disagreed, they knew that they were both true believers.
01:38:01: But there still was that distance, I guess. And I don't think that they made up, not as far as I know.
01:38:09: Nobody's told me that. Well, we have to go to our last break right now.
01:38:14: And if anybody has any questions, now would be the time to do it, because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:38:22: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:49:36: Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.
01:49:42: Iron. Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called.
01:49:48: This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You inviting everybody to come to the
01:49:54: G3 conference which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.
01:50:00: It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there I think every year.
01:50:05: It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight for me.
01:50:12: So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.
01:50:18: And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me,
01:50:30: G3conference .com G3conference .com And now there's even more exciting news.
01:50:36: John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the G3 Conference. Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.
01:50:46: Go to G3conference .com G3conference .com See you there! James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
01:50:58: If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
01:51:08: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous
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01:51:40: Nessie Olin 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a
01:51:47: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:51:58: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:52:08: For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding go to PTLBibleRebinding .com
01:52:16: That's PTLBibleRebinding .com Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.
01:52:44: Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.
01:52:55: If you are a lover of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to FirstLoveRadio .org
01:53:03: They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness such as Dr.
01:53:12: W .R. Downing Dr. Peter Masters Pastor Joe Jackowitz Pastor Robert Gifford Al Martin Edward Delcor and more
01:53:21: FirstLoveRadio .org also live streams my Iron Trepans Iron Radio program daily
01:53:27: Please stick around on FirstLoveRadio .org after Iron Trepans Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the
01:53:36: Gospel of Sovereign Grace Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org
01:53:50: Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen our last segment now with our guest today
01:53:56: Heather A. Kendall on our tribute to the late John G. Riesinger and also to discuss her book
01:54:03: One Greater Than Moses our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com chrisarnzen at gmail .com
01:54:11: Heather we have B .B. in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who wants to know if you ever received any opposition even from your fellow
01:54:21: New Covenant theology Christian brothers and sisters in regard to you being a woman writing a book about theology
01:54:28: I am not personally opposed to this at all and gain much blessing from reading books by women but I was just wondering if you have received any opposition being a woman and sometimes men in the body of Christ can overblow the restrictions on women in the church
01:54:47: I did on amazon .com someone wrote a a rebuff for my book because I was a woman
01:54:57: I had a feeling that they were Presbyterian Covenant theologians the way it came across They have plenty of women writing books my friends at PNR Publishing obviously don't see a restriction in that area because they publish books by women well that's good to know but anyway
01:55:19: I did get a cryptic comment on amazon .com I haven't looked so I presume it's still there and then
01:55:28: I did have not because I was a woman but because of something I said in my book
01:55:34: I received criticism from fellow New Covenant theologians which really shocked me because I considered myself to be a reporter and all of those people at the front of the book
01:55:47: I either talked to personally I saw them, talked on the phone or emailed and I ran what
01:55:57: I said about them past them so that they would know that I was telling the truth but I did have some opposition from a facebook group because I was trying to show that people were talking all over the world about New Covenant theology and when
01:56:14: I said that some people left this group for another New Covenant theology group that even though it was true they thought that I should have warned them but since I wasn't going into detail about it and it was true
01:56:30: I thought that I was fine yeah well there's always going to be bickering and arguing between even brothers and sisters in the same pews at church unfortunately until we are with Christ for eternity we've got to put up with these kinds of things well
01:56:49: I want to make sure that you have uninterrupted at least a minute and a half to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today well
01:57:01: I care most of all that people come to know the Lord Jesus as their Savior and Lord because that's what it's all about and that maybe they don't know the words
01:57:14: New Covenant theology but if they would read the Gospels the Gospel of John maybe the
01:57:21: Lord would speak to them there was one person that I wrote about in this book that was a
01:57:26: Jew and he was approached by somebody and said what do you think about Christ and his reaction was that the
01:57:36: Christians have persecuted Jews but he went and read the Old Testament and he found the
01:57:41: Lord so the Lord is able to work in any heart and I just pray for that praise
01:57:47: God well I want to make sure our listeners know about your website which is called A Tale of Two Kingdoms and of course tale is
01:57:54: T -A -L -E the website is Tale2K T -A -L -E
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