Book of Titus - Ch. 1, v. 2

All right, I think everything's working, so we'll get started. We just started the book of Titus a few weeks ago, and we're only one verse in, so you haven't missed a whole lot. We're still in the salutation, and there's a reason for that.

The whole first section of this letter is in the first four verses. I say section, I mean, you know, just kind of a natural thing that is being discussed, a natural subject, and it's all in the first four verses, and the first four verses are all one single sentence, and it's Paul talking about his mission in life, and of course, it's in the context of him writing to Titus, who will pass this on to the local churches in Crete, but obviously, this is all encompassing for Paul's ministry.

These types of things that he's talking about, they apply to all of his audiences that he is talking to. So let me find my spot where we left off last week really quick. So we finished verse one last week.

I'll read it really quick, and then we'll go right into verse two. It says, Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledging of the truth, which is after godliness.

Just really quick, because we're about to talk about the third point here, so it would make sense to talk about the first two briefly. In verse one, at the beginning of verse two, we get Paul's, the whole of Paul's mission, but kind of broken into three parts.

The first one is his mission is for the sake of God's elect, for the faith of God's elect, and so we talked a little bit last week and the week before that about Paul's emphasis on evangelizing. He knows that he could be used as the tool of God to bring God's people to a knowledge of their saving faith, and so evangelism was a huge part of Paul's mission, and you can demonstrate that time and time again.

But he is an apostle according to the faith of God's elect, God's people. That is one of Paul's prime objectives. But secondly, the reason he does that is so that they can come to a knowledge of truth, as it says, acknowledging of the truth.

We talked about this a lot last week. The word acknowledging there is a precise knowledge of divine things. Truth is God's objective truth. It's unchanging regardless of circumstances. So he wants the elect, once they come to that saving faith, to grow in their godliness and their sanctification and their knowledge of godly things, of true things, and as it says, which is after godliness.

So that part, as we said last week, they go hand in hand. You can't have God's truth without godliness to go along with it. If you are pursuing some truth that's in the Bible, but you're an ungodly person, it doesn't work.

You're either going to be a legalist or you're going to be someone that is so much into free grace that you go out and live your life as if you were a heathen because I'm saved by grace and got my ticket punched, so on and so on.

So we talked about all of that last week. Paul is very much wanting to emphasize evangelizing but also bringing those who he converts to a knowledge of the truth, which is after godliness. Matt and those listening, the reason there is no camera is because we only have one computer today.

So it'll be just audio, which is why y 'all can't see me right now. Okay, so now verse 2. Let's see here. Put my notes. Verse 2 says, in hope of eternal life. That's the third thing. So Paul, if you want to break his mission into three parts, it's for the faith of God's elect to bring them to the knowledge of divine truth, which is after godliness, in hope of eternal life, as it says in verse 2, which God that cannot lie promised before the world began.

Now, y 'all will remember, as we just kind of rehash those things, the hope of eternal life was part of Paul's mission. It's kind of the, if you want to break it into those parts, the first part is evangelism, that is bringing people to salvation, justification, the knowledge which is after godliness.

You could summarize as the sanctification process, just growing as a Christian and growing in your knowledge of God and his truth as you grow. And then what's the final aspect of that stage? It's our glorification when either Jesus comes back or when we pass away and enter the heavenlies in the presence of him, our glorified state.

That is what Paul is talking about here at the beginning of verse 2, the hope of eternal life, that eternal life and our glorification are one and the same. You can't separate those two things. And it's amazing.

Well, we'll get to that second phrase, the God who cannot lie, in a second, because that is amazing in and of itself. But again, Paul evangelizes, he wants to bring God's elect to saving faith in him.

That's justification. Paul then strives hard, again, he puts a really hard emphasis on this too, he strives hard to get them to start acknowledging God's truth, which is after godliness. He cares just as much about God's people being sanctified as he does them, quote unquote, getting saved, as we say in the Bible Belt.

So it's not just a matter of going out, knocking on doors, or maybe having a revival, having a massive altar call, people coming to the front. That's great, but that's only the beginning. Paul would continue discipling them and ensuring that they were growing beyond that, and so Paul would strive hard to make sure these people that are now new in the faith acknowledge God's truth, and again, that's the sanctification process.

And now, that final phrase there, in hope of eternal life, as far as summarizing his mission, he's preparing them to anticipate that hope of eternal life with God, again, that's the glorification aspect of things, they're kind of inseparable, eternal life, glorification, and so on.

Now, we all know in this church what the biblical definition of hope means. Dad talks about it often, and it's a good thing that he does, because it is a very important thing for us to remember. You'll find it in many contexts throughout the New Testament, and when it pops up, it's great to remember what that definition is.

It's not something that we are wishing for. When it says that in hope of eternal life, that is not saying we are wishing for eternal life. It's not something that we wish for. It's not something that Paul was wishing for.

When he penned this, it's something that Paul was anticipating, something he was expecting. But even though we know that's a fact, Paul takes the liberty to ground this expectation as thoroughly as you can possibly imagine.

So when we hear him say, in hope of eternal life, we already know he's talking about the joyful expectation of a certain future event. We know that it's something that's going to happen, but as if that wasn't enough, he goes on and he says, which God that cannot lie promised before the world began.

This expectation of that certain future event, it's based on nothing less than the character of God himself. God is trustworthy, but he's not trustworthy like men can be trustworthy. It is a supernatural trustworthiness that cannot fail.

He cannot lie. And he promised this, the eternal hope, the hope of eternal life. A quick parallel passage, if you want to turn to Romans 12 for just a second, just a few verses, but it's worth taking a close look at because Paul, in a totally different context, talking to the church at Rome, is going to talk about that hope and what it means to us as believers.

In Romans chapter 12, starting in verse 10, Paul says, Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love in honor, preferring one another, not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord, rejoicing in hope.

There is the same reference, the same hope that he's talking about in Titus 1 to rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation. Isn't it interesting? His sequence of events there, he talks about the hope first and the hope will bring patience in tribulation, continuing instant in prayer, distributed, distributing to the necessity of saints given to hospitality.

So he's just knocking out a bunch of aspects of what it means to be a Christian, what it means to be a believer, living up to God's Christian standards as opposed to being slothful or whatever it may be, but rejoicing in hope, that is the big idea here.

And Paul is hitting that in Titus 1 too when he talks about the hope of eternal life. That is what can get us through even the worst of tribulations. It's what can actually give us patience, work patience in our lives, is anticipating that future glory.

So Paul's mission up to this point is very clear. He desires to bring the elect of God to saving faith by the gospel. He wanted to be that instrument that God used to notify his people, if I could use Brother Otis's term there.

He was to bring those now saved people to sanctification by teaching them the full knowledge of God through sound doctrine that would lead them to godliness, or holy living is another way of putting that, becoming a peculiar people, being set apart from the world.

He didn't want to see their story end at the moment of justification. I kind of alluded to this a second ago. He wanted them to be used as stewards for the Lord as he was as an apostle. Paul, after his road to Damascus conversion, it didn't end there.

It wasn't like the story, you know, the end, and then we don't know what happened to Paul. That was the very beginning. And we, as we know, he himself grew, he himself became sanctified. It was a much quicker process for him because he was with the Lord one-on-one for a number of years and was commissioned as an apostle, and he had the Holy Spirit moving within him all the time, as we know, because he penned so much inspired scripture.

But the point is, foundationally, it was the same as for us. He was justified, he got saved, and then the sanctification process began. And through that, he became a useful steward for God's work. And Paul wants all of the people he converts to be the same.

He wants the people that he brought to saving faith, or was used as the tool to bring them to a saving faith, to be used by God like he is being used. And so, as dad would put it, he didn't want his converts sitting on the bench.

He didn't want them to be the third or fourth string, just kind of sitting around, waiting around. He wanted them in the race, in the game, running fervently, and doing amazing things for the Lord. And frankly, you can only do that, you can only be a useful steward for the Lord if you are striving for that holy living, being set apart, continually thinking about sanctification, and asking the Holy Spirit to work in you to accomplish that on a daily basis.

Now, he doesn't leave out the reality of eternal life, again, as a future expectation, a promise which God, who cannot lie, made before the beginning. That great and glorious hope, it motivates the same elect that he is talking about here to bringing to a knowledge of saving faith, knowing that that glorification is down the road, that that is the end goal, at least in this life.

He knows that that is going to be motivating, a motivating factor, to bring those people, God's people, toward purity, toward service of God, two things which Paul is going to be talking about a lot throughout this letter of Titus.

What are ways in which we can serve not just our brothers and sisters in the church at large, but God, how can we do that, and what are the needed personality traits or character traits to do that? He lays it out vividly for elders, as we will see in verse 5 and following, but it's not...the, quote-unquote, pastoral epistles are not just for pastors.

It also talks about holy living for members of the church. It tells us how to go out and demonstrate ourselves to the world. We have so much practical living, regardless of whether you are a leader in the church, a layman, a minister of some kind, a missionary, a street evangelist, it does not matter.

Practical living instructions are all throughout these letters, and Titus certainly has no shortage of that either. The hope that we have in glorification preserves God's elect through all of the sufferings and the tribulations of life because they anticipate their eternal heavenly glory, which is kind of what Paul was hitting up on in that Romans passage we read just a minute.

Now, let's hone in for just a second on this phrase, God which cannot lie, in verse 2. Paul's entire mission, which we just kind of laid out at the beginning of this lesson and talked a lot about last week, his entire mission was built upon the promises of God and nothing else.

His mission was not built upon his credentials. It was not built upon the fact that he was a Pharisee of all Pharisees, one of the most learned men in the entire culture at that time. The fact that he was really smart, it didn't matter that he was a Jew, it didn't matter that he had a great cultural knowledge of the Greek mind as well.

When he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, it wasn't just the law of God that he was becoming proficient in, it was also the culture in which he was living. So, he was just as proficient with Greek culture, the culture that he found himself in, he was just as much proficient there as he was in the law and in Jewish culture as well.

But none of that was the basis for his mission. The basis for his mission entirely was built upon the promises of God and nothing else. Another way of saying that is that Paul's sole rule of faith and instruction was directly given through God's word and nothing else.

Because God's promises, where do they come from? We learn about them through his word. And so, Paul's mission was built upon the word of God and nothing else. Paul always confines his entire ministry to Scripture.

Everything that he teaches, whether it's regarding salvation or peaceful living, which is another thing that he will talk about in this letter to Titus, or being a good minister, a good dad, mother, or kid, how to know God better, how to worship God, all of those things, he gets those and he teaches those and they are found exclusively in God's word.

That's where Paul got them from. And, of course, that's where he put the additional insights and revelation that God gave him so that we could have those as well. The fact that God cannot lie, that is the basis for his promises.

So, we know his promises will be kept because he cannot lie, and then Paul's mission is based upon his promises. So, it all stems from the fact that God cannot lie. He is a trustworthy God. The reality that God can't lie is actually first introduced way back in the Old Testament.

If you all want to turn to 1 Samuel, I will show you guys the first place that the reality of God's trustworthiness, the fact that he cannot lie, is found. And that is back in 1 Samuel, chapter 15. Let's see where it starts.

It starts at verse 26, and just listen to this. This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Titus. We find it in 1 Samuel 15, verse 26. And Samuel said unto Saul, and I went back to verse 26 to give you a little bit of context, which is so interesting.

Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee, for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. Isn't that an interesting context? Saul rejected the word of the Lord.

He did not trust God's trustworthiness. He did not trust God's promises, and he rejected God's word, the very thing we were just talking about being the foundation and the basis for all of Paul's mission in life.

And I'll get to it eventually, but it's the basis for our mission in life as well, not just Paul's. Saul rejected that reality, and so God rejected him. And Samuel is telling Saul this in real time. He hath rejected thee from being king over Israel, verse 27, and as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.

So Saul is just losing himself at this point, hearing this news, and he grabs Samuel. And Samuel says unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that it is better than thou.

And here's the key here. And also, the strength of Israel will not lie nor repent, for he is not a man that he should repent. So that is the first context that we find this reality, this attribute, this part of God's character, that he cannot lie, is right after Samuel demonstrates to Saul, this kingdom will be rent from you, and God cannot lie.

This will not be undone. You can moan and groan all you want, but it's too late. You rejected the word of God, he has rejected you. Pretty potent example there of, well, the severity of rejecting God's word.

But also, it's an interesting context to find this idea that the strong one of Israel, God cannot lie. Now, in Hebrews, if you want to turn to Hebrews 6 really quick, I'll show you one more great example of this reality.

And this one is one that would be a blast to spend a lot of time on. I'll just briefly go through it so it's in your mind. It's a great cross-reference for this topic of God not being able to lie. And that's Hebrews 6, starting at verse 17.

It says, wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of the promise, the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. Well, right there, we learned another part about God's character, his immutable, unchanging character from which the promises flow.

God's essence, his attributes, his character, those types of things are never changing throughout all of time, preexistent, during, and forever in the future.

Yeah, John, did you have a thought? So, when does he become immutable? Right. Yeah, sorry.

I beat you to the punch there. But it's true. If it's an attribute, if it's a part of God's character, by definition, he's always had it. You don't necessarily...well, I won't say that because in human terms, you could maybe make arguments that you grow into certain things, but we are just...we're nothing more than a poor copy of God's image.

God's image is the true originator, the true source of everything. By definition, if he has a character trait, an attribute, he has had it forever. And so, we learned that in Hebrews 6, 17. The heirs of the promise.

Interesting. Once again, in Titus, we're talking about the promise of what? The hope of eternal life. We are heirs of the promise. The immutability of his counsel confirmed it by an oath. Look at verse 18.

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us. There's that hope again. Not only is there the hope, but once again, it's in the context of God who cannot lie.

Now, contrast that for just a second with the additional fact that is just as equally true that the devil is the father of lies. The opposite of what we're talking about here with regard to God in John 8, 44.

Jesus talking about the devil, who's the father of lies, accusing the Pharisees of being after their father. And when you contrast it with that additional fact, that the devil is the father of lies, we have one manifestation of the contrast between good and evil.

The devil is the father of lies, and then here in Titus, we learn that God cannot lie. Two absolutely opposite ends of the spectrum. Now, these are not equal forces, but they are opposite. Good and evil, duality, yin-yang, all those concepts, they're a gross misrepresentation of the true battle between good and evil.

Which is another reason why Islam is so problematic, and many other false religions. But they like to bring equality to those forces, and then say, we can root for this one, but this one is really strong too, and it's this raging battle.

Well, as you study the Word, you can see that there is a raging battle, no doubt, that is true. But what you also learn is that you have a sovereign God currently reigning on his throne that is overseeing all of it, and not only overseeing it, but is the original causation of all of it for purposes we may not know just yet, but will eventually lead to his glory.

And so they are not equal forces, but they are opposite forces. And we have a demonstration of good versus evil here. The devil is the father of lies, God cannot lie. And whatever God says is true, therefore, is true and right by definition.

But this God which cannot lie, he promised something. So now let's hone in on that. He promised something. What was it? It was the hope of eternal life. So, he cannot lie, okay, we have that. The God that cannot lie makes a promise, okay.

If he cannot lie, that means he can't break his promise now. So, what is this promise? It's the hope of eternal life. But here's the real kicker. It says that he made this promise literally, it says before the world began, but literally in the Greek it could read before time eternal.

There's actually not a Greek word there for world. It's just trying to get, it's a fine translation because it's just trying to get in our minds the idea that this happened before anything else happened, before anything else existed.

This promise was made before time eternal. Now, if that's true, before time eternal, before the world existed, before humans existed, before people existed to make a promise to, to whom was the promise made?

Paul tells us that as well in 2 Timothy. And y 'all have to turn here, 1 Timothy 1. I know I have y 'all turn it all over the place this morning. And, of course, we'll be diving into this yet again once we get to 2 Timothy.

But it is worth taking a look at right now as well. Who, to whom, did God make this promise before time eternal? This hope of eternal life, of people who would live eternally with him. 2 Timothy 1, verse 8, it says,.

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but be thou a partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God. Just a quick note, it's totally an aside, but the fact that Paul is telling us you will be a partaker of these afflictions, we need to remember that.

Just like Paul had them, we will have them ourselves. Verse 9, though, says,. Who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

That is to whom the promise was made. To Christ Jesus, with us in him, before the world began. And then verse 10 says,. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Isn't that beautiful? You can parallel this idea of this promise being made to Jesus before time eternal when you look at John 6, when you look at John 17, the great intercessory prayer that Jesus has in the garden as he's talking to the Father.

You clearly see the relationship they had before the world began and when these promises were made between the two of them. And we were a part of it. The Greek in verse 2 of Titus, going back to Titus for a second, In hope of eternal life, which God that cannot lie promised before the world began.

The Greek there is very explicit. The promise came or it originated before the created order existed. And this is a clear proof. We often think about the created order. We think about material things.

We think about matter, maybe space. But this is also a clear proof that time itself is a part of the created order and not something that God is subject to. Now, this is very important because when you start diving into any kind of, well, not any kind, but a lot of different theological topics and you start reading what others think about various things, you start having people ask weird questions you've never would think, no normal person would think of.

Like, what is your theory of time? And there's all of these various concoctions that man has come up with to answer the question, how do we have linear time? Because it's non-material, but it's what the entire universe operates within or from, however you want to word it.

And so theologians or skeptics in some cases as well will have these debates on theories of time and all of these things. Is God subject to it? Was it there before him? Was he there before it? Really ridiculous stuff.

If you want a great demonstration of God's sovereignty over time specifically, go read Isaiah chapters 44 through 48 sometime, and you will hear God mocking the false gods. And the way in which he mocks them is by making the point that they don't, not only do they not know the future like I do, but they don't even know the past and why it happened the way that I do.

And, again, four magnificent chapters in Isaiah there on God's sovereignty over time. But back to the point is that time itself is a created thing, just like everything else. And before the world began, before time eternal, before time that indicates logically that time itself was part of the created order.

It's not something that God is subject to. On the contrary, time is subject to him. In fact, if you look at Ephesians 1, 4, he promised eternal life before life itself began. Time is a creature. If you think about it like that, it's really interesting to think about it in those terms.

But time is a creature just as much as we are. And God does things when he decides to do them because time as his creature, as his servant, is not subject to him. Time answers to God just as everything else does.

So think about just how amazing it is when you're back in Titus, you're thinking about this promise. We now know that this promise was made before time eternal. And it was the promise involved us, but it was made before we were ever created.

And it was made between the Father and the Son in eternity past. Think about just how amazing it is that humans, as meager as we are, are exactly the result of that promise. Or another way to put it is perhaps you could say we are the promise ourselves that is due to Christ from the Father in that eternal covenant between them.

They made that covenant between them. They made the promise. The promise was that Jesus would have a people that would have eternal life with him. And so we are the very promise that was made, that we are the manifestation of the extent of God's love that exists within the Trinity, which existed before anything else.

We were there, and we were that promise. Yes, Mimi, you have a thought.

Why do you believe it's eternal? We are eternal, and we are eternal as well.

Right. You think, yes. And why did he do it this way? Well, for two reasons. Number one, well, maybe it's three reasons. Actually, there's probably a ton of reasons, but I can think of three really quick.

Number one, it was to demonstrate his grace because he can love something that's unlovable. Number two, it's because Jesus wanted an eternal—well, I won't say eternal just yet. Jesus wanted a relationship with people.

The same way he has a relationship with the Father, he wanted that with us as well. And so the Father made him this promise. I will give you those people. And then thirdly, he did, to Mimi's point, make us eternal beings like he is so that we could have that relationship with him perpetually, not just a one-and-done, we live 80 years on earth and then that's it, and he moves on to someone else.

That is not how he did it. He made us eternal beings because he is eternal so that we could have an eternal relationship with him. So those are great points. We could go into verse three. Do you all have anything else, any other thoughts or comments you'd like to make?

Yes, sir. In the Father's mind, I would say yes. God is reality. Right. For sure. It sounds grammatically incorrect, but it was more reality then. The most reality is there, is where the Trinity is, is where the Father, Son, and Spirit reside, where their union resides, is where the most of reality resides.

And so, yes, it's interesting, John, because you're right. In a very true sense, the salvation of God's elect happened at the same moment, in the mind of God, in the mind of the Godhead, when this promise was made.

There is another side to it, though, that is just as real, and that is salvation comes to us in time, and that's when the minds really start to blow because God could have made it where, okay, we're all saved in the mind of God.

He could have just pulled us out of thin air or whatever it is and given us to Jesus right then and there, but instead what he did was he created time, and then he put us in time, and in linear time we have our spiritual birthdays so that we have a testimony of life before then, leading up to a point in time where we were living in rebellion.

We were living in anger toward God and in rebellion toward God, hating him, and that's where Romans comes into play, and then we are made a new creature. And so that's the means in which God accomplishes the true fact that you mentioned, is we were saved in the mind of God, but we're also saved in time at a particular point on our spiritual birthday, quote-unquote, as well.

Both are equally true. It's really, really interesting. Yes, ma 'am.

Because God loved us so much that he wanted to give his life for us because the scripture says,. So there had to be a reason for Christ to die, to lay down his life for his creation.

Absolutely. Again, I think one of the prime reasons humans exist in the first place, someone asked me once, why did God need to make humans? If he had angels who are perfect, there's something he can love outside of the Godhead that's perfect.

It makes sense that he would love them. Of course, this is a derivative of an answer Dad or Otis would give. It's not an original thought, and it's in the Bible. But that's exactly why he created humans, was because we weren't perfect.

Well, he created us perfect, but if the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, he knew that he could foresee and plan for there to be a time when we weren't, and it was to demonstrate his grace.

The angels would have never even understood grace. He could have said, this is an attribute of mine. And they're like, OK. So we don't even know what you're talking about. We can't see it. And even when you had the rebellion of the now fallen angels, they fell, they rebelled, and they were cast away forever out of his presence.

And so there you have yet another demonstration of his holiness and things like that. But where's the grace? The grace didn't come until after the fall of man. And the pinnacle of it, to your point Mimi, is the crucifixion, because not only can he love something that's unlovable, but he will sacrifice everything for it, that unlovable creature.

And so he made us so he could demonstrate his grace, and so he could demonstrate his justice as well, because the creatures that continue in their rebellion against him, that following the parable of the wheat and the tares that were planted by the devil himself, God's justice is shown in his demonstration of judgment toward them and toward the fallen angels and the places he's reserved for them.

So you have all of these attributes of God that just exploded and manifested themselves all through the creation of man. Yes, ma 'am. Yes, sir. Exactly. Exactly. Why would he do these things? They're hard for the meager human mind to grasp, but it comes back to demonstrating his attributes so that the universe can see them and maybe even understand them at some point.

Obviously, we'll be continually learning about him forever, but we can begin to understand them as they are revealed to us and all of that good stuff. So that's exactly right. There's a purpose behind all of it.

And so there you go. There's kind of a quick summary of some of those things. Really quick, I want to go back and say one more thing, John, about your point. We were saved in God's mind kind of at the same time before time began.

Another note I want to save there, why I mentioned, why I even answered the way I did with we are saved in linear time and space as well, and both are equally true, is because you have a constant attack on people believing in what you said.

They will say that we weren't even imagined yet. We weren't created. We did not exist before our physical birth. So, no, we weren't saved in God's mind. We weren't saved until we called upon the name of the Lord.

Again, we were saved in time at the moment of our spiritual birthday. But one doesn't negate the other. That doesn't negate the reality that the ever-knowing, all-knowing God knew us lovingly in his mind before time began.

Just as much as that reality doesn't negate the other. And so it's good to have both sides of the coin because, yes, you have the responsibility factor over here. But you cannot say that we didn't exist, that we were just nothing prior to our physical conception, because then you're limiting God.

And, of course, you are, what's the word, starts with a D, diluting. You are diluting the truth that we find here in Titus 1 -2, which is that eternal promise, that eternal covenant that was made before time eternal.

You dilute that by saying that God couldn't have known the heirs of that promise then. So both are equally true. And that's why I wanted to say what I did, because there's this constant attack on what you said.

And we need to point out the truths on this side, but you don't get to say that this negates that or vice versa. And I know you weren't. I'm just saying that as a general argument you guys will see more and more, as if you haven't already.

I think we're all familiar with those types of attacks.

And there you go. I think it all comes back down to his ways or not our ways, his thoughts or not our thoughts. But we were actually saved before time. So I don't know if you can say we were all saved at the exact same moment, but we were.

Because there weren't moments when we were saved. The only difference is, from Van's point of view, we were notified on the day.

Exactly. It's two viewpoints, both equally important, I believe. And I really do believe that. I know I am all for putting an emphasis on God's viewpoint, like Otis did and like Dad does, and I think like Dave and I do, as much as we can.

But I really do believe both are equally true, because that is where God doesn't want us living our lives like, oh, well, that was okay, because it was God's will. You can fall into that pit of error pretty easily, as easily as you can the free will side, where all of a sudden, God, we didn't exist before our physical conception, as if God couldn't have been thinking about us before then.