William Lane Craig and “Mere Christianity”

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white However, I am NOT in the United States right now greetings from London England from about 150 yards from the

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Thames River and And lots of rain. In fact, I have a weather widget up Watching the rain

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Circling in from the North Sea and I guess that happens a lot around here, but it was a beautiful day yesterday

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I did walk down to the river and sort of took some pictures and said yeah, that's a river and then walk back but here for a extended period of time ten days going to be speaking this weekend at Trinity Road Chapel starting tomorrow evening and Both services on Sunday and then

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Monday, we're going to be having the debate with Abdullah and Lucy and Tuesday going to be recording some of the unbelievable radio broadcasts and Lord willing on Thursday recording

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Revelation TV Interview some of you might recall on the YouTube page.

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You can do a search on my YouTube page I was on the program once before we had a panel discussion on Calvinism Which turned out to be quite interesting

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Especially the phone call from the Jehovah's Witness on the panel session on Calvinism turned out to be especially interesting and intriguing

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But we'll be doing that on Thursday and then I'll be returning home on the weekend so very much looking forward to that time here meeting all of my

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London friends That we hear from every so often But obviously doing the program a little bit early because it's already six o 'clock here

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We could have done the regular afternoon time, but that would have been 11 p .m My time I have a feeling I will be up then the jet lag sort of crashed into me this morning after breakfast and I basically went back to sleep, but So I have a feeling

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I'm probably up a little bit later this evening, but that's that's okay No, no major problems with that.

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I'm gonna leave it up to the great master of ceremonies and Fixer of all things technical well not all things technical we just had to have the real fixer of all things technical get the server up and running, but rich Pierce back there as to whether the

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Phone you know if you wish to call you have something you really feels important I'm gonna leave it up to him as to whether he feels he should let me know about or not

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I have plenty to fill the hour With the sound clips that I have

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But if it's something directly relevant to that that would be that would be fine as well. I want to start off today with It's a subject we've addressed before but it concerns me greatly

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I was a couple days ago looking through my iTunes podcast subscriptions and I Just saw something above on Twitter from someone who's sitting behind me.

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This is really weird I mean, I'm sitting 6 ,000 miles away from The studio and we're doing this and then

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I see something coming up on Twitter that is sent by someone in my room It's it's what a world we live in and I'm not sure what

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Spurgeon would have thought of all this but Would Spurgeon have Twitter now? There's a question that I'm sure some people have discussed in the past but as it may

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I was looking through my podcast subscriptions, and I ran across a Program from William Lane Craig his reasonable faith podcast

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If you if you know what podcasts look like in iTunes the ones you have not download are sort of grayed out

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And I had not seen this one before and it caught my attention So I download it and listen to it while doing some packing for the trip, and I was

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Deeply bothered deeply concerned by what I heard because it once again addresses

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One of the key issues that I feel we are facing today and that is this mere

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Christianity movement represented by people like Frank Beckwith the people who were behind the

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Manhattan Declaration and Like people like William Lane Craig and the title of the podcast you can get it from his website is

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What about Catholicism and so I'd like to listen. It's a the podcast only 15 minutes long

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You take the beginnings and ends off. It's even shorter than that I would like to listen to what

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William Lane Craig has to say here And the person interviewing him and comment on this because I truly believe this is

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One of the clearest examples we've seen this as we've listened to William Lane Craig before we listened to his

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Sunday school classes where he was talking about soteriology and he basically contrasted the Calvinist position with the

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Roman Catholic position and opted for the Roman Catholic position with the slight change in regards to justification and we've listened as he debated

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Christopher Hitchens of Biola some of you may recall the the cartoon that we posted

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That angel put together in regards to His statements that so when he was asked, well, you know, are there any false

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Christian religions that William Lane Craig's response was? well I'm not a

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Calvinist You know, he doesn't think of Catholicism. He doesn't think of the papacy.

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He doesn't think of Inquisitions and the mass and things like that No, he's he's not a Calvinist That's gonna come up again here in essence because what we're gonna hear is

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William Lane Craig Promoting to people and and many people listen to what he has to say The idea that there is really no difference between where he stands and his differences with Presbyterians and where he stands and his differences with Roman Catholics.

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It's all just a matter of taste It has the gospel simply is not definitional here and that is to me the real problem so let's let's start listening to this and then

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I have some more material from my one of my opponents on Tuesday in regards the unbelievable radio program, sir.

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Anthony buzzard. I never got to his comments on Hebrews, I'm sorry Psalm 110

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And Hebrews chapter 1 I doubt that I'm gonna get there today either But we'll see all depends on whether we do take any phone calls or any of the rest that type of stuff

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But we are live with you today from London, England via Skype, thank you very much and Hopefully the quality is good enough that you would be able to hear very clearly what

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William Lane Craig has to say Let's go ahead and dive in Theologies and I see tension in this quite often

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I tend to call it Catholic bashing from evangelicals from time to time who just really regard

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Catholics as So thoroughly deceived that they're almost in a hopeless state that I've got other believers who say no

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We only disagree about 10 % we agree on a lot of the essentials and things like that now immediately

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As I recall in the opening, I guess I should have played that They did play some clips from people like Dave Hunt And so I would assume that's what he's referring to by quote -unquote

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Catholic bashing But when he defined it He defined it as individuals who in essence were saying that there is no hope for Roman Catholics notice the problem immediately the definition of this particular matter within the context of Individual viewpoints rather than the official positions of the

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Roman Catholic Church and talking about Roman Catholicism I think it's one of the major problems that people have it raises all sorts of emotional issues

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Because well, I know this Roman Catholic and he's nice or she's this wonderful person blah blah blah as if the individual defines the religion rather than dealing with what are the actual teachings of the

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Roman Catholic Church and Then moving down from there. I guess one of the problems but to call that Catholic bashing

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I found rather rather troubling but There's there's the introduction.

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Why don't you take a stab at this? Sorry to put you in such a hot seat and guide us through the sometimes troubled waters of a relationship between Protestants and Catholics.

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Well, Kevin, I am a Protestant and therefore I Obviously have some disagreements with Catholic doctrine

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Now immediately we've we've been here, but we have new listeners all the time and I it's just vital to address this

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You are not a Protestant Because you have Differences with someone

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You are a Protestant because you have a conviction that the gospel matters

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If you're a Protestant merely because of taste if you're a Protestant merely because well

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That's just how I feel or you know, I don't like this the smell of candles

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I don't like how certain people dress what whatever else it might be Then that might explain why there are so many people who call themselves

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Protestants that the original Protestants would never have even Guessed or of their party or had they ever met them?

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This this really takes us immediately to the real issue and that is does the gospel

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Define the faith is this merely and this is where the majority of people out there in the world come from.

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This is merely an intervarsity Dialogue this is this is within the faith.

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It's not really a big issue It's just differences of opinion versus the very

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Assertion that Rome's gospel does not save Now, of course people immediately say well, you can't we can't go there any longer for for many reasons

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Protestants are No longer nearly as convinced that they actually know what the

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Bible says or that there is a clarity to biblical revelation when they were at the Reformation and In a general sense if you're going to just talk about quote -unquote mainline denominations, that would be true

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But then on the other hand neither is Rome nearly as clear as she was only a hundred years ago as To what her beliefs are and so people say look things have changed and and William Lane Craig's gonna say that he's gonna say

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You know what things have changed. We're now just separated brethren all that stuff from Trent and the

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Anathemas It's really odd to me that he always goes back to to the tridentine definition of justification

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But he doesn't go back to the tridentine anathemas There's there's some inconsistency there which undoubtedly comes from the people that he encounters and and has these ecumenical

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Conversations with but listen to what the real issues are as they're being as they're being presented

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But having said that I'm also not a Presbyterian, I'm not an Episcopalian.

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I so I have disagreements with those Denominations as well and there you have it the difference between him and Roman Catholics is the same type of difference

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That he has with Presbyterians or Episcopalians. It is a matter of denominational difference

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It is not a matter of the gospel itself That is a fundamentally different Perspective than was taken by the vast majority of the

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Reformers and that needs to be understand understood Many young people end up looking to William Lane Craig for Guidance because they they buy into his theology is his arguments for the existence of God and there is a credibility transfer out of that philosophical realm into a theological realm and When they hear this then they have that they are having introduced to them on a basic level a confusion of Categories that I think is

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Extremely dangerous and I'll be honest with you. I think we see some of the fruit of this I did not bring it with me, but I think the day before I left a copy of the book by Norm Geisler and if I recall the name

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Joshua Betancourt maybe somebody in channel will correct me if I mispronounce that or have the name wrong, but I believe is

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Joshua Betancourt and If I recall correctly, it's a Baker publication, which you can't get on Amazon anymore.

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I had to get mine from Westminster theological seminaries bookstore But it is a book trying to respond and from what

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I saw just thumbing through it. It looked fairly accurate But trying to respond to the claims of Roman Catholicism, why does that has the book been pulled out

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It has been pulled out because of the fact that Joshua Betancourt has become a

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Roman Catholic the co -author with Norman Geisler has converted to Roman Catholicism and I see fundamental weaknesses in this

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Perspective that doesn't mean that there aren't people who held to a stronger position in Regards to Rome to become

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Roman Catholics. There's all sorts of reasons why people become Roman Catholics I should have brought up and I still need to to download this the

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Material that I saw I recall it was on James Swan's blog. I think maybe somebody could give me a

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URL and channel To Some Pew research information on which direction the flow goes between Protestants and Roman Catholics It is massively out of Rome toward Protestantism, but you wouldn't believe that if you listen to all the people hyping up the the converts in essence out there

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But bit as it may I really believe this this mere Christianity perspective that says the gospel really doesn't matter that that's just completely levels

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The differences by saying well, you know, I'm not a I'm not a Presbyterian, but I'm not a

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Catholic either I think it's tremendously dangerous so the fact that I Have some disagreements with Catholics and therefore could not

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I think in all good conscience be a Catholic myself Isn't to say that I regard

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Catholics as somehow sub -christian nor or un -christian any more than I think

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Presbyterians and Episcopalians are So we could talk if you wanted to about some of the areas where I myself

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Cannot in good conscience affirm Catholic doctrine. But on the other hand, I do want to affirm that my

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Fundamental goal with reasonable faith is to defend what CS Lewis called mere Christianity Which is the

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Christianity that is common to all of the great branches of Christendom whether they be

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Catholic Protestant or Orthodox or Coptic That's my burden.

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This is what unites us rather than what divides us. You're already there you have in a nutshell

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What is truly troubling to me That in in a nutshell was the foundation of the thinking of the

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Manhattan Declaration I realized that those who signed it would say no no, no, but when you read

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The specific statements That are found the Manhattan Declaration.

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That's what lies right as I was explaining it. It strikes me as tremendously problematic

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That's there is there are so many big names That believe you can define

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Christianity apart from the gospel This is what was behind the

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Manhattan Declaration. I know that many of the men who signed it say no no that that wasn't my intention, but it's clearly the intention of people like William Lane Craig and the drafters

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To say that what binds us together? can transcend the very gospel of Jesus Christ this is the issue to me and when

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I brought this up before and I get identified as Simply a stick -in -the -mud and This is why you know, we don't want to have

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James White speaking at our conferences or whatever else it might be but when Paul wrote the

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Galatians he could identify the gospel over against a false gospel at the beginning and What's more he could identify?

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brothers over against false brothers false brothers fakes

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Galatians 2 for it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in Who had sneaked in had slipped in to spy out our

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Liberty which we have in Christ Jesus in order to bring us into bondage? He could identify the fellowship of the church based upon what based upon the gospel and He identified people as pseudo

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Delphi false brethren Not based upon their being non -trinitarians

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Paul never says a word anywhere About these men being unorthodox when it comes to the nature of God and if the

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Judaizers existed today Then I cannot see how

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William Lane Craig and Timothy George and All the others in this mere

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Christianity movement would not call for their general inclusion under the banner of Christian, I just I don't see how that could be avoided and as a result,

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I Cannot help but come to conclusion that these men are standing against The apostolic witness and against an apostolic proclamation of the gospel to the detriment of their hearers and Again not because I like Controversy not because I like to argue with people not because I like being disinvited from conferences or anything else

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But because I seek to be consistent Then I have to point these things out.

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I have to sound a word of warning It would be much more enjoyable to not do this it would be much more enjoyable to just you know, do my thing and Ignore this kind of this kind of area.

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It's it's it's not something that is enjoyable to do but it needs to be done Because people hear this and if they do not know there's another side it creates in their minds the idea that these things don't matter and That you can hold to Rome's doctrine of the mass and the sacraments and the sacerdotal priesthood and purgatory and indulgences and papal infallibility and prayers to Mary and all these things and that does not touch the very essence and definition of the faith itself and I just believe that if we are just to think clearly and think biblically

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We will see that that is not the case They're gonna draw criticism from those who say well

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You need to take a harder tougher line on Catholicism because it distorts the gospel and so on so you can't win.

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I wonder I'm sure that many people have contacted

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Reasonable Faith and have contacted William Lane Craig and has said, you know that James white guy criticizes you fairly regularly

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For being squeamish about these things. That's very term. You know, I'm squeamish about these things and Someone in channel had just mentioned, you know, the the

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Judaizers make me a bit squeamish That that's the wrong categories there on a theological level

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I have to wonder if that's not a commentary my direction or at least In my general direction, if not, if not personally and if so, well, that's wonderful because we need to Understand why

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William Lane Craig and people like him hold the views that they do in this I think However, we can win by maybe just discussing some of the places where Protestants and Catholics Disagree.

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Yeah, we just want to discuss things Proclamation authoritative proclamation regards the very nature of the gospel

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Not very postmodern and not very popular we just want to discuss things and When we went through the entire discussion between Timothy George and Frank Beckwith I hope your spirit was troubled by a discussion of things

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Paul didn't discuss things with the false brethren in Galatia. He identified who they were and yes, he anathematized their gospel and he anathematized them and It does not help the world around us we do not show love

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When we are not clear about what the gospel is We are aiding and abetting false

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Gospels When we are not clear on this matter, there's a vast difference

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Between being clear on the matter of the gospel and being a dogmatic narrow -minded individual who does not even

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Recognize the existence of points of view outside of his own some people confuse the two purposefully

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They're not the same thing If I had never taken the time to listen to what

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Roman Catholics are saying to hear What they mean when they talk about these things then maybe you might have a reason for objection but I'm the one who's debated

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Mitch Pack with five times and I was sitting there on the same platform

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When in defense the Roman Catholic priesthood he openly Confessed that he is identified as an altar

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Christus another Christ in the ordination ceremony and on that basis Defended the idea that he's in essence married but married to Christ and married to the church and Defended that type of terminology

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I'm not like the King James only fundamentalist Baptist out in the woods someplace just going. Well, I just don't like them

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Catholics That's that that's not we're talking about here But when you really allow Rome to speak for itself what it says about the gospel is fundamentally anti -apostolic

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That's why they are so concerned about claiming to have apostolic succession because they can't demonstrate their beliefs from what we know the

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Apostles taught They have to have that alleged authority to overthrow the witness of the

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Apostles themselves These are vitally important issues and they do as anyone can see

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Eventually end up being so definitional that they determine the very means by which you defend the gospel itself

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William Lane Craig does not defend the Christian faith the way that I do and that's why

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Protestants are just Catholics who think that the Catholic Church needs some Reformation Catholics now since Vatican to regard

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Protestants as separated brethren. They do not condemn Protestants they think that Protestants are our

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Christian brothers and sisters, but separate you know That's true for some people

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I'm not sure how William Lane Craig becomes an infallible interpreter of Vatican to we all know that there are differences amongst

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Roman Catholics on their understanding of what separated brethren means and Anyone who has asked

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Roman Catholics to give a clear Understandable forthright answer to the question

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How can I be a separated brethren? not only in light of the anathemas of Trent but the positive teaching of Trent That if I do not partake of the mass,

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I do not have eternal life How many times you heard I when

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I was when I was teaching at Golden Gate a few weeks ago as I mentioned there's a

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Immaculate Heart radio station up there. So I found it and I was listening to some of the programs and During one of these specific conversations that I listened to Well, you'll you'll hear a lot of conversations about the mass about transubstantiation about the

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Eucharistic sacrifice It's centrality to Roman Catholic worship all of that stuff. You'll hear it all the time.

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We're not talking about just backwater areas this is very much a part of Where Roman Catholicism continues to be today and if that's the case

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Then my question would be how can? According to John chapter 6 always go to John chapter 6 in fact as I was driving

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Let me let me see here I was on my way to the seminar because I remember I was going through the tunnel right before the Golden Gate Bridge and Right as I got there mother

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Angelica was on so this is an old an old recording and someone called in and she was this this person this caller was having an argument with a

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Protestant about The Eucharistic sacrifice and of course mother Angelica gives this incredibly surface level

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Quotation from John chapter 6 nothing about context that that's what you get all day long

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On EWTN and the Immaculate Heart Radio Network and just the same very surface level stuff repeated over and over again but the point was

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That right here in John 6 you have a statement Unless you eat the flesh of the

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Son of Man and drink his blood you will not have life within yourself According to Roman Catholicism we as Protestants while we might have that initial grace of justification by Trinitarian baptism

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We do not have access to the very life of God through the Eucharistic sacrifice So, how does that work?

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How do I how can I somehow Live for decades off of the initial grace of baptism when

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Roman Catholics are constantly having to go to the priest in Fear of committing mortal sin and losing the grace of justification

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How in the world am I supposed to make it through my life Without access to the very things that Rome says

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Roman Catholics need to have now if you want some more confusion here

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Let's throw in the fact that most Roman Catholic priests and and bishops today are at least inclusivists if not universalists and If you take seriously what they say about Islam leading to salvation through at least worship of one true

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God along with Catholics, which just continues to make my head just Spin as to how they ever came up with that But if you throw that in it has been well said that it might be better if Roman Catholics stop trying to convert people

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Because if the Muslims can make it Without access to the sacraments and if the Protestants can make it without access to the sacraments.

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What's wrong with all you Roman Catholics? Who keep getting these sermons saying that you need to be going to mass or you're running dang the danger of losing?

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Eternal salvation To say that Rome has some problems is a minor statement, obviously

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But we've got problems on on we've got our own problem says we're hearing here

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Because what gospel are we even talking about here? a gospel of inclusivism

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How can I be a separated brother? How do I put that together with the dogmatic statements?

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Unum sanctum and and all these things Rome wants to say we are the church of 2 ,000 years

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But just don't worry about what we said before yesterday How can that how can that be

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That's just one of the many questions we would have rated from the Church the true church that Christ is established.

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So we certainly are living in a new era. I think in which Catholic Protestant relations are much friendlier than they have been in the past I see a lot more

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Bible reading among my Catholic friends who have often complained that they weren't encouraged to read the

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Bible Perhaps growing up and I don't know what that is, but I've seen a lot of fruit there from our

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Catholic friends What does reading the Bible lead you to and in fact when you're in the

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Roman Catholic Communion? What did Vatican to let's let's let's go to Vatican to what did

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Vatican to tell you? About reading the Bible in what context do you need to read the

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Bible? Well within the church, of course And so there even continued to be warnings in Vatican to Concerning the reading of Scripture outside of the normative view of the church getting into the word and digging in themselves

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Yes, and that can only be a very positive development. I think is they Become familiar with the

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Bible and submit themselves to what the Bible has to teach I think that we can all rejoice in in that Yes, I always rejoice in people submitting themselves what the

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Bible teaches, but that's not enough If it doesn't lead you to embrace the gospel and If you embrace what the

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Bible teaches you're not going to be embracing what Roman Catholicism teaches on so many things not just one little thing about Doing good works in a state of grace to merit eternal life

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You have purgatory You have mortal and venial sins You have the difference between the punished the eternal punishments of sins and the temporal punishments of sins one

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Jesus bears one. He does not You have sacerdotal forgiveness you have the priest you have the

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Pope and the infallibility of the Pope and Marian intercession and the Marian dogmas There's just so much with if it was just the mass if it was just the great

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Well, yes blasphemy that the mass brings against the finished work of Christ.

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That would be more than enough But this whole complex of issues

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How can you sweep it under the rug and say well? Is it so nice that Catholics are reading their

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Bibles now if you don't then take that next step to being and since they've Submitted to that they have left the

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Roman Catholic community and embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ That is the part that's missing because mere

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Christianity is Sub -christianity, it's non apostolic Christianity. It's unbiblical

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Christianity. Therefore. It's not Christianity at all Well, what would keep you or prevent you from being a

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Catholic? well, one of the difficulties that I have would be with the doctrine of Justification as it was enunciated at the

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Council of Trent Which is one of the most important Catholic councils for enunciating

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Catholic doctrine in the Council of Trent it has a description of how

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Justification takes place and it makes it very clear that our response to God's Grace is just that that God takes the initiative

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God's grace leads out We then respond to God's grace and he infuses into us

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His justifying grace and what this grace does is give us the power to perform good works

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Which in turn merit eternal life Now it's that last bit to catch that it's that last bit

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Because up until the performing of good works in a state of grace willing Craig agrees

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Because he believes in prevenient grace he believes in a grace that tries, but there's not always successful He evidently doesn't even have a problem with infusion of grace rather than imputation of righteousness

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Any of these things, but it's that just that last little part Can you see why someone who would go with him to that point?

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Could be very easily brought that last little direction with a a smooth

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Scott honey and Jimmy a Kenyan type of Presentation certainly sounds that way to me.

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It really gives me pause all the rest of it. I think is great but I Don't see that all the rest of that.

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I think is great All the rest of it I that I think is great

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What an amazing statement again

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It sounds to me like Bill Craig is a nice guy But he is a frightening theologian.

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I had a friend of mine who was at the SES apologetics conference and He was close enough to hear

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Bill Craig talking to a number of his adoring followers at one point And he specifically heard

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Bill Craig say If you want to do apologetics, you need to stop reading so much theology and read more philosophy

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Here's the result Theological disaster mayhem

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Utter biblical collapse all the rest. That's great No, it's not.

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Dr. Craig all the rest. That's horrible and And it leads that entire system of Roman Catholicism and its gospel that never gives peace and cannot save and That's a major area of disagreement between us.

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Think of the good works. We do as being meritorious of eternal life that seems to me to teach salvation by works if you say that God Gives me the power to do meritorious works that then earn salvation

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That seems to me to undercut the doctrine of salvation by grace alone Now what our

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Catholic friends will then I notice he knows exactly how they're going to respond and ask yourself a question

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Does he provide a meaningful refutation of the argumentation?

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He's about to give very quickly says ah, but these works are only done by God's grace it is

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God's grace that gives you the power and the Drive to do these meritorious works and so in one sense it wants to say no

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No, these works are only grace. It is ultimately grace and not works, but nevertheless the bottom line it seems to me still remains that whether through the grace of God or not,

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I perform works which then merit eternal life and Whether through the grace of God or not, well, there's a real problem, but you when you have such a

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Neutered view of grace such a biblically defective view of grace that you can say well

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My grace or not, you know, that's you know, what does it really matter you're still saying I have to do something

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Well see Is that really a strong position of objection? I don't think it is the the biblical ground of objection is to find

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Rome guilty of violating the God -centeredness of the gospel and the supremacy and perfection of grace, but Bill Craig has already abandoned that with his

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Arminianism and so he can't even begin to to muster a meaningful criticism of Their Roman Catholic position

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I don't think it's biblical Christians that we want to say that and so that is one of the aspects of Catholic doctrine that gives me real pause

38:38

Bill I cannot count the number of times when I've gotten in discussions with Catholic friends who have said to me

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Kevin just what by the way, what is it that? Distinguishes you and me.

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What do you guys believe they want to know what the differences are? Where do you think in opportunities like that, where should we go the first to Justification is that yes,

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I think that's the bottom line really Kevin. I mean others. I have never heard William Lane Craig criticize

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Rome's doctrine of transubstantiation Rome's doctrine of the priesthood

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Rome's doctrine of sacramental penances Rome's doctrine of purgatory

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Rome's doctrine of indulgences Rome's doctrine of Mary's role as Mediatrix of all graces never heard a word about it.

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Does he know about these things? He's a smart guy He's got to know something about it But I've never heard him even mention these things because you see folks when it comes down to the most basic level

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He's already missed it As to the fundamental problem of Roman Catholicism and this mere

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Christianity movement can not meaningfully criticize

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Roman Catholicism at its root at its most basic levels of error

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That's why it must be Identified first of all, it's flying under the radar and then resisted as well things such as church government or The sacraments or other sorts of doctrines are important But really at the heart of it is are they important as in?

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Denominationally important difference between denominations or are they definitional? I Don't think that he sees the connectedness the holistic nature of Roman Catholic theology

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Especially on the mass and how that's related to Roman Catholic claims of authority. I just don't think he sees it

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Or if he does, he doesn't recognize it. It's going to be justification because Justification by grace alone through faith.

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I think is the central Protestant insight and I think it's a biblical insight and Therefore that's something

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I think that we need to insist upon now what I find in talking to Catholic friends is that their understanding of the doctrine of justification at Trent Is really the same as mine.

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They don't think that they earn salvation They don't think that they perform meritorious works that are in salvation the way they interpret it is that God by his grace gives me the power to live a good life and therefore

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I Go to heaven and it's all due to God's grace. It's it's wholly by grace alone

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This is this is called defining Roman Catholic theology based upon people you talked to on a bus once Um This is not how you do it

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But unfortunately that that's what we're hearing. Here's what they seem to have a much better If you see there's not as much difference as we thought, you know, they believe the same thing

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I do Now if you're a Biola student if you're a Talbot student student Are you going to be truly prepared to respond to the challenges of Roman Catholicism?

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Are you even are you even going to see it as a danger at all in light of this? The line of distinction becomes very blurred or very fine and I think that in many cases

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Practicing Catholics may not be much different than Protestants. Do you see what

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I mean that there may be these counseled? conciliar statements on paper

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But the way is certain born again Catholics Really live and what they really believe may be much closer to what?

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Protestants think and what these conciliar statements literally say let's catch that born -again

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Catholics and So you can be born again apart from the gospel You can be born again.

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It sounds like what he's saying is well, you know, there are Catholics that that aren't really with the conciliar statements

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And is that true? Well, yeah, thankfully but from the Roman Catholic perspective, are they Catholics? That's one of the big issues here are they really

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Catholics who defines Catholicism He's certainly not saying what I have said many times that is if there is a person who is a member of the

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Roman Communion who is an heir of eternal life. They are so in spite of the church not because of the church

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They've heard the true gospel They believed the true gospel But evidently are not aware that what they believed is not the same thing

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Rome is teaching But there is no salvation in Rome's gospel, that's not what he's saying what he's saying is you can you can believe

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Rome's gospel and Still be born again, which means again. The gospel does not define the faith

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Protestants are often drawn to the beauty reverence and the high church

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Style of the Catholic Church and they think well, maybe we're a little too loosey -goosey in ours

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And they're they're drawn to sure that from time to time but loosey -goosey

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I Guess that's the 15 -minute podcast way of saying that there is a fundamental liturgical difference between many evangelical churches and that of Roman Catholicism and I do not by pointing out the loosey -goosey statement

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Do not mean to diminish the fact that the interviewer is of course pointing to something that is

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Very important and many of those that I've talked to who have converted Roman Catholicism did so because of a lack of focus upon true worship in evangelical services where The the person is not a part of the worship.

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They're just an observer There's there's everything to look at there and to identify what the real problem is

45:00

Just engaging a religious ritual is not the same thing as doing true worship We still need to look at Doctrine we still

45:08

I think so Kevin. That's the bottom line. I mean, I am tremendously attracted to this great tradition this great historic

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Catholic tradition and to the great thinkers that have graced that church.

45:24

Well, there you go I'm not predicting William Lane Craig's Final crossing of the

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Tiber, but William Lane Craig just like Frank Beckwith Is firmly planted in the middle of the

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Tiber River. He is not on our side of the Tiber River. There is no question about this When you buy into so many of the fundamental assertions of Roman Catholicism You you are not on the far side calling people to leave and So here you has on greatly attracted to these things and you know,

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I got in a lot of trouble a number of years ago when I was in Rome and I blogged about the fact that I found st.

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Peter's Not to be a beautiful place but to be gaudy and Repulsive because from my perspective

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I Saw the connection between the gold and the marble and The frescoes and the statues and the reality they're supposed to represent in a false gospel clearly once you have abandoned

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The gospel as the definition as a definitional a centrally definitional element of the

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Christian faith that objections gone and I Can start naming names of the people who have decided one day?

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You know what? I'm just gonna go all the way I'm gonna I'm gonna That's a song that I Find this attraction to now overwhelm me and Why what what reasoning then?

47:09

Does William Lane Craig give to not go there? Well, let's listen and to the beauty of the

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Worship service of the the ceremonies the buildings and so forth I do find all of that very attractive and so I can understand people who would

47:27

Want to be Catholic because of those things but ultimately it does get down to doctrine and if you can't in good conscience subscribe to the doctrine then

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I think you shouldn't be a Catholic and similarly I agree

47:45

But which doctrine are we talking about are we only talking about that one little tiny difference is that enough?

47:54

Dr. Craig to warrant Your remaining in rebellion against the

47:59

Bishop of Rome from the Roman Catholic perspective that one little thing Obviously a lot of people don't find that to be enough

48:08

Presbyterian or Anglican or an Episcopalian because why why can't you be present because they're

48:13

Calvinists? Why can't you be an Anglican? I've got that some differences in church order. Whatever else it might be is

48:19

See, we're not talking about definitional things here We're talking about taste issues

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But not that which actually defines the faith. I just don't believe the doctrines that these denominations teach and So even though I may be very attracted to them in other ways.

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I I couldn't be member of that denomination No matter what he does as long as you reduce the issue to the difference that exists between Bill Craig as a a

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Baptist and Presbyterians You have trivialized the

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Reformation So he's nice. He's trivialized the Reformation. I don't know why anyone who would learn under Bill Craig would have any interest whatsoever in Delving into the

49:14

Reformation and the reasons why men did what they did at that point in time Why and why

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God did what he did? Because when you think about it if you really do accept where Bill Craig is standing on this issue

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What they did was a massive overreaction Mass people died over mere denominational differences

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That's what he's saying And that's that's right So ultimately

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I think we if we're not going to be religious hypocrites. We have to ask ourselves. Can I in good conscience?

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Believe the things that in this case the Catholic Church Stands for and I find myself over and over again saying well,

50:00

I can't really affirm that in good conscience Dr. Craig the Virgin Mary is a real sticking point as well between Catholics and Protestants Probably a lot of misunderstanding there as to her status.

50:12

There was a move a while back to Really elevate Mary almost to the equality with Christ co -redemptrix.

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I don't think that ever got off the ground I'm sorry, but our interviewer here Does not understand this issue at all

50:28

Those of you who had it's no longer in print, but my book Mary another Redeemer question mark

50:35

Know that not only has that movement gotten off the ground it remains in the air

50:41

There are millions of Roman Catholics who have submitted petitions to the

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Pope in Rome to define the fifth variant dogma That Mary is co -redemptrix and co -mediatrix advocate with the people of God This is not from their perspective the elevation of Mary to a position of equality with Christ So I would argue that all of Rome's dogmas have sought to diminish the uniqueness of Jesus and a parallel in Mary his unique offices to the detriment of the worship of God and the worship of Jesus Christ but the

51:15

Roman Catholic perspective is Very much the very same perspective that Bill Craig was just promoting.

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This is only by grace Mary's only doing this as a picture of grace

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She is a a co -mediatrix only in the sense that she does this by God's grace

51:35

They use the same arguments Why not be consistent? In in your position here in the

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Catholic Church, but there was a move there That was very distressing to Protestants as well who see

51:49

Catholics as worshiping Mary a human being and Catholics resist that Vigorously say we do not worship

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Mary She is honored But she is not the subject of worship

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And at this point we better hear William Lane Craig professor at Talbot say, however

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There is no real difference between Latria and Julia and to give

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Mary Hyperdulia is a is a sham and this does lead to the idolatry that we see

52:23

He sees the idolatry listen to what he's gonna say about going into a church and Seeing more candles lit to Mary Why not go to the biblical problem here because it would lead you to the ultimate conclusion that this is

52:37

Idolatry, but he leaves it within the realm of being uncomfortable squeamish having problems with it's all left in the matter of taste rather than the matter of actual truth and here you have one of these situations where again, the

52:54

Doctrine seems to be right, but the practice in many cases does seem to verge on idolatry

53:02

It's it's distressing for a Protestant to go into Distressing verges upon.

53:08

No, sir. It is How could it be any more clear than this?

53:15

But see once you've gotten the point. Well, I like all these things over here then you it verges that doesn't get quite there

53:21

Verges on a cathedral or a church and see the altar to Mary a blaze with a forest of candles and another altar where Jesus Is pictured has hardly any

53:37

Candles in front of it where prayers are offered. It does seem in practice many times a kind of Mary Allah tree

53:47

Does well, yeah in Mexico There's there's that kind of an image of a very rigorous

53:55

Vigorous Mary exalted arms outstretched very much alive But then their crucifix has the crucified beaten

54:04

Savior and so Jesus is not seen as Vigorous and alive as Mary just in the statuary and so on right and for the average

54:14

Peasants so often it will be Mary that he approaches in prayer and seeks help and Succor from instead of Christ and she really does

54:24

In again practice, I think preempt the role of Christ so So what does that mean?

54:35

It's you just Get so frustrated hearing this. I'm gonna go just a couple minutes long to make up for we had happened earlier

54:43

I want to get to the end of this because I want to be able to say yeah We reviewed everything that he said and we didn't skip anything.

54:49

That's sort of ameliorated the damage That this position has this would be kind of the mirror image of what

54:56

I was saying before We're sometimes practicing Catholics attitude toward justification is better than the doctrine in this case

55:04

I think the doctrine is better than the practice many times that Doctrine of the church is very clear that it doesn't worship

55:10

Mary or think of her as on a par with Jesus but in popular

55:15

Catholic piety Sometimes it seems that that line is crossed It is the very false doctrine of the

55:24

Roman Church that gives rise to the Mariola tree This is not

55:30

Oh Rome's very careful to to avoid these problems and it's just the peasants that mess it up There is no meaningful differentiation between Latria and Julia when it comes to worship

55:43

But you're not going to get that from Bill Craig in conclusion today. Dr. Craig if you were to sit down Have coffee with a person of the

55:51

Catholic faith. What would be your approach with them? What would you want to know find out? I want to know whether or not that person has a vital relationship with Christ or whether or not

56:01

This person has simply been raised in the church and This is a kind of proforma religion that hasn't really resulted in a regenerate heart

56:13

And that may be difficult to discern, but I do think that that's the bottom line Catholics that I've talked to that are clearly born -again believers will readily say the

56:25

Catholic Church needs to be evangelized and they will With what do you evangelize?

56:34

the gospel But what gospel has produced this Catholic Church that needs to be

56:41

Evangelized it just doesn't make any sense until you see that Rome doesn't have the gospel, right?

56:48

Just admit this right from the beginning that that the church is in need of evangelization

56:54

And so I think that's the most important thing to try to discern us whether this person we're speaking with is someone who really knows

57:01

Christ and is a regenerate Christian and the follow -up question should be and Would you seek to bring them out of the

57:10

Roman Catholic Church? And the only way for the mere Christianity advocate to answer is no

57:17

Why would I do that? Not Well, there you go, there's the whole thing

57:31

I knew I wouldn't get to anything else today, but I'm seriously thinking about Doing the program again on next

57:40

Thursday, and I'm sorry next Wednesday at some point maybe even later. I will we'll talk with With rich and figure it out, but I should have time at some point to go ahead and do the do the program

57:56

Again, so thanks for listening to the program today from London, England important issues please be praying for the ministry as we continue on and We have much going on this this coming weekend and the week to to follow.

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We'll keep you updated on the vlog Thanks for listening. God bless The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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