November 25, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Upcoming Debates and Travel Plans

And good afternoon. Good evening. Welcome to the dividing line a Tuesday evening edition boy last week. We had quite a barn burner this evening. We had Jerry Manateeks and Eric Svensson on and we're still feeling the repercussions from that one.

It's Tell you there's some there's some interesting folks out there that you know, it doesn't matter what facts you present. It's just. No, no way around it, but you know, we've had to move on from there because this Saturday I leave for Florida and over the course of the next week Ministering a number of times Steve camps going to be on the cruise with us and he and I are going to be doing some ministry together before them and Then of course Friday night December 5th.

In the.

Tampa area the information is on our website. If you are planning on being there, you might want to you know Take a look at that get the information regarding the debate. They'll be taking place between myself and Greg Stafford the thesis Jesus Christ God or a God it's going to be very very interesting.

I'm very excited about it. I have not been this prepared For a debate I would say probably since January of 1991 so we'll be coming up on 13 years ago when I debated to Mitchell Pacwa on the subject of the mass and Justification, I'm sure which one first I think justification came first in that one.

Yeah, I'm pretty certain it did and that That was in San Diego, and of course at that time all I knew about Mitchell Pacwa as he had been on The Ankerberg program with Walter Martin. And so I watched that and listened very carefully to that and was very very prepared for the that set of debates.

And I am more prepared. I think for this particular debate Listen have listened very very carefully to the debate between mr. Stafford and Robert Bowman. That took place in May of this year. And of course, I've had mr. Stafford's book for a long time.

Specifically his Jehovah's Witnesses defended second edition and there was a first edition and I read that book in Preparation for writing my book on the Trinity and responded to a number of mr. Stafford's points.

In fact there I've mentioned a couple times that there are some chapters In the Forgotten Trinity that are better stronger chapters because I had read Greg Stafford's book and Had listened to his the responses and hence clarified my presentation light of them and So it's going to be a quite the debate and then of course the very next day.

We we drive across Florida basically, which given the shape of Florida is not that bad and we get on A cruise ship and we spend a week in the Caribbean on an apologetics tour and That's going to be very very interesting.

Especially given the fact that we're going to be discussing a positive Christian defense of those Christian doctrines Denied by Islam and the majority of folks on the boat who are not guests are Islamic.

So that'll be that'll be interesting who knows. So what will what will come of that, but and then don't forget. I just put this on our website I'm sorry that I have not kept up with my blog since about Friday or so, but I'm not going to obviously be able to do that when I'm on the road.

So just sort of get used to it I'm afraid for the next couple of weeks. But I just again made the announcement put it up there on the the very beginning of the web page December 16th and 17th and maybe even the 18th.

I don't know all depends my understanding is that the Bible Antiman broadcast is a little more structured than it has been over the years in the sense that there is more scheduling and There have been many times most of the times that I've been on we've gone three hours.

I know we did the King James controversy. I think with James Aiken Jimmy Aiken now Let's see who else staples. We've we've done a lot of three-hour programs that extended over the course of three days and That's what I'm expecting Obviously, there's going to be absolutely positively.

No.

Shortage of phone calls. When we are going to be debating The subject of Calvinism, I'll be taking on George Bryson. He has a new book out. I can't find it anywhere I've looked. I looked on Amazon I looked on CBD and.

They've never heard of it, but it's called.

I'm trying to get my voice.

The dark side of Calvinism. Oh, I just love it that dark side of Calvinism and you know, I've not seen it. But I can tell you exactly what that's all about because I've debated George Bryson before and Really for George Bryson the primary reason that he Believes what he believes about Calvinism.

It's not obviously exegetical. The primary reason is because if you were to believe Calvinism, then you could not Believe his traditions and So his arguments are gonna be well if you if you believe Calvinism Then maybe Christ didn't die for your loved ones.

And of course my response will be well if you believe our minion ism. It doesn't matter whether he did or didn't because it's all up to them. So why are you praying to God about the first place? But anyway, it'll be interesting and So I don't think there's gonna be any shortage of phone calls in that one.

So it could go three days if there is room in the schedule. And I think once before what happened was we did two days and then we played. They played I shouldn't say we when I don't schedule it, but they played the third day I don't a couple weeks later, you know fill-in type thing.

I don't know. So that's what's gonna be coming up at least on the 16th at least get one hour in scheduled for two so now they're on the 17th and Then I think it'll probably go a little longer than that because we will be melting the phone lines With that particular topic.

I really think we will be so. But there will not be any dividing line this Thursday, of course for obvious reasons. It's Thanksgiving and nobody would be out there listening. At least I doubt anyone would be and then I leave on Saturday.

So As the website announces the next regularly scheduled dividing line and I'm not sure if this is even going to happen because I sort of have a mental breakdown scheduled for when I Get home on the 17th but we're supposed to do something on the 18th in the morning and that'll probably just be a real big report on how everything went and It'll be it'll be fun.

So I'm afraid we're gonna be gone for a little while. But you know absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that kind of stuff and that's just sort of how it works. So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number if you'd like to make some comments.

Maybe you did not get an opportunity to get in Thursday morning. You just got some comments. You still like to make on last Tuesday evenings program and some of the fallout that has come from then I'm it's stuff.

I'm not even mentioned. Some of the stuff I've seen. And some of the folks that you know, I'm getting I've gotten emails from a certain Roman Catholic apologist another Roman Catholic apologist has posted things and it's so tempting to just sit here and and Demonstrate the utter.

I Don't know inanity of some of this stuff, but some of these people I'm just starting to realize.

You know.

You get into a food fight and you're gonna end up with you know, strawberry shortcake on your face. It's just how it is and and If that's all certain people can do that's all they can do now. I know that's an easy way to get away from real debate challenges.

But I'm not talking about people who actually are really worthy of real debate challenges. So it's it's hard to know exactly what you're going to discuss and whatnot to discuss, but it's been interesting.

Maybe you'd like to have some comments on that. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 haven't really had an opportunity to comment much on. The cultural things that have taken place since last week. I believe it was last Tuesday that, Massachusetts did what it did and You know I would you know for judges who obviously embraced the idea that what the worldview of the people who wrote.

Whatever Constitution we're talking about whether it be a Constitution of the state Whether it be the Constitution of the federal government in either case the worldview of those folks and what they intend and what they meant.

Is irrelevant.

We can just reconstruct everything in our own modern image and. We have these King priests the priestly King is called the judiciary. Who really you know, they just they don't they're not accountable To anyone but themselves anymore and.

It's it's a sad sad situation. No two ways about it. But that's that's what's going on in our society. It shouldn't surprise us. This is this has been developing for a long long time, but we haven't commented on that.

Maybe you'd like to comment on that. I saw on a Southern Baptist a Founders Conference Southern Baptist Message board this week. It was referred. I was referred to it. I can see those things people send me URLs.

I don't sit there and run around and track this stuff down. I don't sit there surfing the web for hours a day, but people send me URLs and Someone had posted it really it almost looked like someone had taken the same-sex controversy had taken every passage that we address and Had written a little thing where in essence.

Let's.

Let's ignore the rebuttal that's offered here. Let's just take the questions that are being there they're being responded to in this book and Turn into a positive presentation or homosexuality. I mean, that's that it was so much exactly what we had addressed in the same-sex controversy, it wasn't even funny and Saw that and and so you're gonna be seeing a lot of stuff if you have not picked up the same-sex controversy.

There's a lot of folks who haven't. You know, I realized that there's a lot of folks who?

And.

Homosexuality stuff. It's really distasteful. Well, it is. There's no question about that. Believe me. It'd be a whole lot easier for you to read the book that Jeff Neal and I wrote. Then to read the books that we had to read to write the book.

I assure you we if you want to go read all the pro-homosexual books and then you know. Come and and then come up with your own conclusions. That's one way. But if you like to avoid all that and just read some good stuff that would be I think a better way of doing it.

So.

The same-sex controversy the debate with Barry Lynn. People starting to realize you know what? I need to. I need to know about this stuff because I know I went through seminary and I couldn't have given you a Semi-decent discussion of homosexuality.

I mean I knew of passage here passage there, but I didn't. I really didn't know. Until I was forced to really do some study and if we're gonna be able to give an answer in our society. It's something we need to be addressing very much along the ways I did want to play one section just to sort of help prepare you for the the upcoming Bible Answer Man broadcast in December.

This is I just want to play a section and I I think we may have some. I'm not sure if we have some folks Calling in or not, but this is just a section from the cross-examination one thing. I'm gonna tell people straight up front.

One of the things I'm gonna do. Is I'm really going to? Emphasize biblical exegesis as Much as I possibly can. I cannot control those programs.

They.

Normally the first hour is Discussion driven, but still you have you know you have all the breaks. There's nothing you can do about that. You can't really build a cadence or a rhythm or anything like that.

But the first hour is primarily discussion driven and so I'm gonna do my best to lay the groundwork right at the beginning and say look Here's the issues we need to address and if we just sit here and go back and forth and do things with With you know philosophy and and things like that without establishing a biblical foundation.

We're just going to continue to increase the amount of confusion on this subject. We need to base this discussion in the Word of God. Not in our traditions our traditions different from one another and if our traditions are our our final authority.

Then we're never getting anywhere. Let's concentrate especially upon the the Word of God and In doing so I would like you to listen To the cross-examination period just a section of the cross-examination period between myself and George Bryson.

Where I asked him about a passage that I'm going to be asking him about When it comes up in the December as well, so let's listen to this section from the debate this was from April of last year on the subject of Salvation who is in control?

Mr. Bryson, I would like to ask you in light of what I just said concerning John chapter 6 verse 44. All the father gives me will come to me and the one who I'm sorry. No one is able to come to me unless the father sent me draws him and I will raise him up the last day.

Is it your position that the one who's raised up at the last day in John 6 44 is different than the one who's drawn?

It is my position that there are two things required you must come to him. That's one and to come to him. You must be drawn. It's my position that scripture clearly in John 6 44 and all of that context.

So you're talking a lot about the need to look at things in context. If you take all of that in Connection there are two things that happen. One you have to see and another you have to believe if you go on Earlier in that very chapter, but the point here is that you cannot come.

You are not able to come unless he draws you. But being able to come and actually Coming to him in faith are not exactly the same thing. He enables you to come and if you come to him and are drawn and you can't come to him unless you're drawn Then he will raise you up, but he doesn't raise people up unless they come to him.

But the ability to come he gives but making you able to come doesn't make you come. Okay.

Verse 44 says No one could come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. Are you saying those two hymns are different people?

No, I'm saying those two people there that one person does two things. One He comes to him, but he comes to him only because he is able to do so. But because we're gonna get that in the first 44 44 two things.

No one can come to me come to me. That's that's the one thing. The other thing. He says is that that person who comes to him Has to be enabled by the father drawing him. No one can unless he's enabled so he has to come to him and he has to be drawn.

But if if he is drawn and doesn't come to him Then in fact, he will not be raised up the last day just as it earlier says. He must see and believe.

So there is so you believe that that the hymn the two hymns here are different because you just said you can be drawn. No, and not raised up.

I'm capable as one person of doing more than one thing and God is capable of doing something while I'm doing something. And what he does here is Enable me to come. What I do is come. I come in faith as a matter of fact.

Let me just say that even Calvin suggested that coming is a metaphor for believing.

No, there's no question about that. But where does the word enable appear in verse 44 can come in?

In fact, I remember in your book you point this out. No one is no one is able to come that's right.

But but it does not say he is enabled says. Unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day the drawing.

Results in being. You know, that is not what it says. It says that no one can come to me and almost all Calvinist commentaries say the can is enabling.

It is not inevitable that you will come. It's an enabling but you could you name one that it confuses? Ability with enable.

I.

Ability and enablement because the same you mentioned my own book. I never said anything about okay. Enablement has the ability.

Ability and enablement unless you have a different Definition. When somebody is able to do something or if somebody's been able to do something they are now able to do it.

Okay, you said that between these two hymns you have to come who comes to Christ according to John 637.

Oh, well only those who are enabled come to him and those that the father has given to him, okay all.

I.

Didn't understand that according to verse 37 all the father gives me will come to me. Who who is given by the father the son those who believe?

Not unbelievers, but believers. Would you agree with that? So.

God gives.

Those that he foresees will believe to the son.

Well, of course he foresees everything but I'm not saying he gives him the son because he foresees the the fact that God God enables people to do something but they still must do it.

He enables us to believe but we still must believe. Didn't you just say that coming is a metaphor for believer? Exactly, and isn't the giving of the father here what results in their coming to Christ?

No, that is not coming to Christ is Putting your faith in him. I.

Understand that but but just on a simple grammatical level. Which action in verse 37 comes first. The giving of the father to the.

Son or the coming to Christ? Well, I don't think there is a chronological order. I think there's two things that are true. Only those only those that the father gives to the son come to the father. But only those who believe does the father give to the son now the other choice.

The other option is to say that he gives unbelievers to the son.

And if you want to say that I'm happy with that. No, I'm just I'm just you don't believe that there is any Temporal priority here between the father giving and people coming. All the father gives you will come to me.

That's right. All that I give ten dollars to will buy books at stand to reason. No, what action comes first?

Well what I'm saying here and I think it speaks for itself that those who he enables to come do come those who believe in? He gives to the son if you want to say the opposite that he gives Unbelievers to the son you can say it but all the questioning on this isn't going to change that.

You had.

Said earlier that the Calvinist position is that Christ's blood is worthless to all but the elect.

I'm saying that's the Calvinist position. Yes.

Okay, let's. If you could follow that then you should go. You should go on that program because you'll do really well. There's I mean that's is a Jesus defined. That is that is so clearly not deriving.

Your.

Position from the text that. But still there were people that were there Who said he won that debate and and I I look at something like that and I go Isn't it just like crystal clear that that that that he wasn't dealing with the text here and Seemed that way to me and but I'm sure that the exact same thing is going to come up on on the program and it's going to be I'm going to be very very interesting.

We had a caller. We had a caller. Mike. But so we lost Mike. Mike if you'd like to like to call back in we lost you. You may still think you're waiting on line or something, but Mike calls call back in we'll put you back on anyone else at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three.

Thirty-three forty one. I really think that what you see in a situation such as when I faced with George Bryson before And remember he wrote this dark side of Calvinism book to my knowledge After that debate, I don't know that there's going to be any evidence in the sense of a Greater understanding of the reformed position as a result of that.

It actually seems to me that. Especially in the case of Dave Hunt when you face people.

With.

Biblical evidence one of two things has to happen. Either they have to be willing to examine their traditions and change their traditions and abandon unbiblical traditions or they're going to be be pushed further into inconsistency and In fact further into error.

You look at for example the apostasy of Clark Pinnock over the past number of decades starting as a reformed person and Now holding to open theism inclusivism post-mortem evangelization. Denying the existence of an eternal hell.

So on so forth you see you look at a situation like that and you watch the process and the brain to bear of truth Just caused constant Retreat from it and that seems to be the case when you start when these these folks Maybe initially out of ignorance and out of a misrepresentation of reformed theology Begin to react against it from their tradition, but then when you bring the truth to bear one of only one of two things can happen you cannot You cannot be neutral at that particular point in time.

You have to either respond and and Deal with the biblical evidence or you you go further and further into into error To the point where you look at some people and they start denying eternal security and eventually what they start doing because they don't believe that the Saints will persevere because the supernatural work of grace in their hearts.

Eventually, they start believing in essence in a works salvation system in a system where you do these certain things. And if you don't do these certain things, then then you might be saved. But then you get lost and you get saved again and get lost and and etc. Etc. Etc.

And.

It really you know, you just can't stay at one point unless you just stick your head in the sand and. And you know just not even not even think about it. So that seems to be the case with with most of these folks and those who are writing books.

You'd think that these books would would get the arguments against the reformed position become sharper and sharper and more pointed don't you think. And. Yet, that is not the case as we examine them as they come out.

877 -753 -3341. Let's go ahead and head back to Lancaster Pennsylvania a place I've been to a few times when I was much younger and talk with miles. Hi miles.

Hi, how you doing? I'm doing great. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. I'm looking forward in a couple weeks.

I'll be seeing you at the cruise. Aha. Well. So how many entrees can you put down in one dinner?

Too many.

Now I don't want to hear about any competition starting because my son is 17 and I think he'd have a real Advantage over all of us who have already gone past that point in our life where our metabolisms slow down.

It'd be really bad for us to try to keep up with him. So well, I'm from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We have many fine smorgasbords, all you can eat places and I've tried them all.

I'm.

Doing the Atkins diet right now, so I'm trying to oh, good luck. Oh. Good luck. You do you do realize they have midnight buffets with these mountains of chocolate and desserts and things like that. Maybe I'll have to give myself a break that time.

I think you're dead meat brother.

So what's it what's going on? Well, I was listening to you speaking. Um, I attended Calvary Chapel. Please don't hold that against me.

Hey, we had a bunch of nice folks from Calvary Chapel that came to the Bryson debate and they were going, you know preacher. But we need to hear this but you know, y 'all are in the minority. I know I know and.

The funny thing is I started attending Calvary Chapel a couple years ago is right here on the same time I discovered your book the King James only controversy. So either God has a sense of humor or You know because those same time I thinking on reformed theology, I never really heard it express, you know as you know as winning.

You know somebody to be saved and choose them to go to hell. That's all I really heard, right? I didn't hear that because we all deserve the idea, you know. We would not if we had our own free will active grace on God's part to get to us.

Right, so I thank you for that that that you know I've I've grown a lot in the last couple years and God's used you in that and well, it's great to hear. Those are the Calvary Chapel's who are not thrilled about what's going on as far as like George Bryson's book and.

Well, have you seen this new one? Advertised anywhere. No, I have not yet. Yeah, cuz I just got an email from a CRI and they were talking about resources and You know, I wish Debating Calvinism with Dave Hunt would be available, but it won't be out till February.

So we were talking about the Potter's freedom and they mentioned that they're gonna be making available George Bryson's book the dark side of Calvinism. And so I I went online and you know, I haven't gone to the Calvary Chapel website yet.

But I I went to Amazon and CBD. I mean Amazon has debating Calvinism available for pre-order already. And so I figured well if it's if it's being published by anyone as far as a national publisher then Amazon or CBD would have some you know notification about or something not not a whisper and so I just wondered well, you know, is it is this just simply sort of a rehashing of the five points Calvinism Wade and found wanting or Just a new a title, you know, I don't know I didn't know if it had been in any of the advertisements or any of the the Calvary Chapel stuff.

Yeah, we should be getting the magazine sometime soon. I mean they had Dave Hunt's book in there. Yeah, I did see that but I haven't seen anything for George Bryson's new book. Hmm. Interesting interesting.

Well, okay, but you know, it just in my experience last couple years I mean serving I mean a fellowship in Calvary Chapel and serving I serve as a elder there now is I. Don't think Chuck Smith really knows Knows about reformed theology.

I mean, he's very critical of it, but I don't think he really knows it. I mean, I've heard him talk about it and In their doctoral statement, they say they take a middle-of-the-road approach, but it was more closer to Arminianism than Calvinism.

There's it really stood still in my opinion. Well, it does seem to me that.

They try this mediating position, but in reality if you recall the Advertisement for Hunt's book in the official Calvary Chapel magazine specifically talked about If you see it sneaking in if you see it coming into your church then you need to get this book and so it's it's obviously viewed as a as something that the that the leadership is opposed to and.

That's that is sort of sort of a sad thing, but you're not alone. I can guarantee you that but. Yeah, because I have talked with folks and I don't want anybody to think that just because I mentioned George Bryson.

Or I mentioned something happened, you know, Dave Hunt preaching at a Calvary Chapel that that You know means that everybody who goes for Calvary Chapel is in the same boat, but it's obvious to me. Anyway, that and I as I look at people who have been in essence expelled from the movement for being Calvinist I don't see anybody who's been expelled for being Arminian.

So there does seem to be a sort of a semi quasi official stance that's taken. We actually your name is actually Roberto right and you are calling from Michigan, right? Well, thank you Roberto we look forward to seeing you on the cruise.

I'll tell you what. Let me let me hold you over. We'll come right back to you after the break and we'll go ahead with that question and that will give other folks a chance to Call at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

We'll be back with Roberto right after this break.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book.

The same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law In a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about Homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or.

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.

In his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven.

Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth.

You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

James 5, Hebrews 11, and the Nature of Biblical Warnings

How the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey and welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White and we are currently talking with a.

With an anonymous brother from an anonymous state back east where the Battle of Gettysburg took place and He's in an anonymous denomination because we don't want to get him in trouble at all. And if you heard anything other than that I'm using my Jedi mind powers to erase that from your memory even now and.

So you're gonna have to now just be careful when we meet, you know people try to come up with really funny ways of like introduce themselves like I have an op in channel and he he walked up to me at John MacArthur's Church once and To introduce himself the very first time and he comes up and he says I'm the guy in channel.

Whose Nick is a hot pox legomena? Now I'm sitting here trying to get ready to speak. I'm really Russian as people all around me and I just look at this guy like what in the world Are you talking about and I sort of shake his hand say thanks and it's not till hours later We're on the road back to Phoenix.

That's I finally figured out that this was one of my ops I would have loved to have said hi to him. I bug him about that to this day. So when when you say hi, just you know. Don't don't come up with something like I'm the anonymous guy from the the city The state where the battle again because I'll look at you in the exact same way so, okay.

Hello. Yes. Oh, there you are. Okay. Good. Did you hear any of that? All of it. Yes. Okay. Good. All right, so you.