Stop and Think (Before Ripping Someone's Lips Off)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning. Welcome to an unusual Thursday morning dividing line

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Of course changing the schedule due to my teaching right now and just reminder We won't have a program next week because I'm flying out to New Jersey To speak at Trinity Fellowship Church, look forward to meeting those of you out in that particular neck of the woods

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But of course, I have been announcing on the blog a major announcement for today

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And I do not want to be like folks on various television programs who say we're going to be saying

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X Y or Z And then they make you wait half an hour and do at the end of the program That's not a nice thing to do though.

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It would keep you hanging around it would also cause a tremendous amount of complaints and and I know that Today we we have the great privilege of having

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Milo Hudson Bueller in the audience and I know that he would probably explode

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Which would be a bad thing if I waited for too long to get to the announcement obviously

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One of the things that people have been asking about the cruise Is well, is there going to be a conference?

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Is there going to be a debate etc, etc? And I didn't want to do the conference thing conferences are wonderful and fine but they're also a tremendous amount of work and they're exceptionally expensive and the the cruise is a shorter cruise than normal and so Because of the fact that we're going to have such an intensive

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Class on the cruise itself that really to me is the conference part a lot of folks haven't been in school for a long time, so Doing four hours a day as it is it's going to be pushing most folks especially with the pre reading and things like that that is going to be a part of of the of the cruise, so But I did want to try to arrange a debate that the problem was think about it if the cruise is

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Monday through Friday That causes a problem because I have done one debate on a on a

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Sunday didn't like doing it But I was forced to do it And we don't want to do that and so at the best you could do

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Would be to have a debate on a Saturday and now you've got a day Where we somehow people who are traveling far from home have to somehow find a way to get to a church

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There are some local churches we go to there, of course so we had a great relationship up there and we did the

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John Dominic crossing debate and The conference there and things like that, but still it there's all sorts of logistic nightmares to deal with in in something like that, too, so When I contacted

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I was I had certain ideas as to what I wanted to do And if you're familiar with the topic of the debate of the cruise the cross its

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Historicity and theology now most of our listeners and when you hear theology of the cross you understand we're talking about atonement and Substitutionary atonement and the extent of the atonement nature of the atonement foundation atonement relationship justification all these things but historicity

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You might wonder why that is Well, that's because there are a whole lot of people in this world that don't believe that Jesus Christ died upon a cross

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I'm not talking about the Jesus seminar where you have some questions about that or or You know various people today who are attacking the historicity of the accounts on from a liberal perspective

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I am of course talking about the Muslims and so I my first desire was to set up an

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Islamic debate on The historicity of the cross and I'm going to play a sound clip here

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To give you an idea of who has agreed to debate me on the subject of the crucifixion of Christ, so then

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In the Muslim understanding there is no need for the cross Yes, those of you who are familiar with our

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Previous programs know that you were just listening to the voice of the man I will be debating on Friday night the 19th of October 7 p .m.

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SeaTac Marriott in Seattle, which means at the end of our debate

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End of our cruise. We will get off the ship and as a group We will go to the

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SeaTac Marriott and that evening we will have a debate with Muslim apologist

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Shabir Ali on the subject of The cross the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

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Yes, sir No, I'm curious given that this will be at the end of a cruise on the cross

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Will that mean that the audience questions will be a little more intelligent? Well, you know the audience questions should be pretty good because that's what

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I'm excited about is that everybody on the cruise? Instead of as it has frequently been in the past.

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Well, for example the last time when I debated Spong Then after that I addressed various issues with the group on the ship about homosexuality

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Well, but they had already seen the debate this time what we do on the ship and the the the study together

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We will all in essence together be preparing For the debate together and I think

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I think especially those on the cruise We'll get a whole lot more out of seeing the debate

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Because of the preparation that they have put into it, and I think there will be much more

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Anticipation on the part of those who are on the cruise because the fact that as a group we will be working toward a

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Defense of what we're studying during the course of the of the cruise itself within the the context of the class and and As we have interaction with one another and as we as we have the theology talks and things like that It's it's just going to be an incredible incredible opportunity

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To do this and of course you all know you've you've if you have not had the opportunity of listening to or even better watching

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The debate between myself and Shabir Ali from Biola University this past May I would highly recommend it to you

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I mentioned at that point in time To Shabir that I would love to arrange future debates the one

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I mentioned to him in fact And this is the first time I'm mentioning this may well take place Because in speaking with Shabir on the subject of this debate in October in Seattle He mentioned that he may have been successful in arranging location and getting things rolling on a debate in Glasgow in May and So I'm very excited about that.

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I very much want to make sure that happens as well So that looks like there will be two major debates this year one in May one in October on the subject of Islam and I would be looking at doing the deity of Christ debate in Glasgow and some of you may notice of course that So far if both these debates take place as scheduled

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Lord willing The first three debates that I will have had with Shabir Ali. I will have been in the defensive on each one of them obviously

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Plans are also in the offing of future topics Which would reverse that role and would address specifically

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Islamic claims as well But it is it is certainly an honor for me to have the opportunity first to have defended the inspiration of the text in New Testament next to defend the deity of Christ and then the crucifixion of Christ for the sins of God's people so those

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Are all things that we are working on right now, so if you will look at the blog even right now An article has posted

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Came up right at the beginning of the dividing line itself That gives you some of these details

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This will be Friday night October 19th at the SeaTac Marriott We will have a page for you probably late this evening early morning that will give you all the rates

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If even if you are not be able to go on the cruise and we understand that you know for various Providential reasons some folks who just very much want to go on the cruise are not able to do so But even if you cannot if you will get get registered at the

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Marriott get your rooms maybe well, I would assume that there will be a Listing through the web page of how you can do that how you can get that taken care of so that they know that you're with Our group get our rates etc.

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Etc. If you do that by March 1st Then you will have free access to the debate the debate is you know you have to have a means of Controlling the crowd and the size

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I believe that our maximum size about 750 about 750 people we had 2 ,500 people at Biola and we are going to do everything that we can to Let folks in the

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Seattle area know and I think the subject and The the whole context of Islam and Christianity will mean that we will probably fill that place up So what

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I'm saying is procrastinators beware Because this will be a ticketed event we have to do it that way

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We just we cannot we have to be able to control people coming in and people coming out and so on so forth.

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So you will be able if you have your SeaTac Marriott Reservations made by a certain time then there will be no cost in the debate the debate costs entrance again 750 will be the maximum so you need to need to take care of that need to work on it

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You know hit it hit it this evening if you if you can starting today

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The the cost is only five dollars, but it will go up After a certain point in the future to ten.

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I mean in comparison to most things that's not much You can buy you know to two meals at McDonald's for that but Still those will need to be checked.

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We will need to take care of those types of details So I'm just tremendously excited about this I'm very thankful that so we were able to work this out

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We literally had to had to be a little bit concerned in our in our in our setting of dates about Ramadan the

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Islamic holiday of Ramadan, but we've been able to work around those issues and so Friday night,

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October 19th at the conclusion of The Alpha Omega Ministries cruise and the class on board on the cross its historicity and theology

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We will be having a debate there in the Seattle area there at the Sea -Tac Marriott with Shabir Ali on the subject of the crucifixion of Christ I will be able to give you the exact phraseology of the thesis fairly quickly

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But I will be defending that Jesus Christ voluntarily gave himself as a sacrifice for sin upon the cross of Calvary in the place of God's people and So that will be what is going that's the big announcement

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I'm extremely excited about this very very Happy about this and as we get more details

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In regards to the specific date in mid -may in Glasgow. I will of course let you know about that, too for our huge Glaswegian listening audience, which

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I think might be two or three but Make sure that everyone that they're in the UK is also well aware of the fact that so we are working to set that up as well, so I am extremely excited about this

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Shabir Ali is a Very intelligent man. He knows how to present his case

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He has debated this subject before and I of course have listened to his debates on this

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Subject before and we'll have listened to them numerous times again by the time we get there and So I'm exceptionally excited about this and I hope you are as well

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I hope those of you who have already signed up Are excited that you in essence are going to get to have an opportunity to be a part of the preparation for this debate

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Your your participation your being in the class your interactions in the class the fact that you will have a

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Part in essence in in the debate itself that that no one's ever really had before I think it will be extremely exciting.

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And if you are sitting on the fence you might just might just hopefully fall off the fence at this point onto the right side of things and Get signed up because it is going to be a tremendous time

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In the Lord during that period of time while we're on the cruise. So there's our big announcement. I want to a play for you a

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Portion of some of Shabir Ali's Presentation on this very subject So you'll have an idea of why it is that we are dealing with two areas the cross

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It's historicity and theology because you can't separate the two out The the proclamation of the cross and the

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Christian faith is a historical proclamation I was listening to da Carson lecturing while writing yesterday and and one of the points that he made that I've made many times as well is that is that while there are many religions where there are fundamental things that could be denied or disproven and the religion continue on because the religion is primarily just based upon personal experience if The bones of Jesus Christ were to be found and somehow this was provable.

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There would be no Christian faith Now there are those who would say

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That they are Christians and yet that would not make any difference because well Jesus has risen in my heart But that's not the historical

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Apostolic proclamation of the Christian faith in any way shape or form and so the two are connected together

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Jesus Christ died at a point in time in history when we've addressed the concept of the

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Roman Catholic Mass We've addressed this reality that while Jesus Christ is is himself eternal his physical body that he took on was not eternal in that sense and that the

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Atonement took place in time it took place in time and history and geography and in space we can identify when and where and how and so on so forth and that's important to the proclamation of The gospel itself.

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So listen to how the both the theology of what sin is what?

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atonement is substitution the holiness of God how that then interfaces with The historicity of the gospel in these comments again coming from Shabir Ali Now, what about the cross?

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Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed on a cross. The Quran says that the Jews boasted that they have crucified

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Jesus but the Quran says well, I'll cut a little or mass on a boohoo Well, I can should be hell at home.

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They killed him not nor did they crucify him But he was made so to appear to them

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What in the lady not that will be he left he shut him in and those who differ concerning him are in doubt concerning him

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Mala won't be human element in the Tibar on them. They have no knowledge concerning him, but they follow only a

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Conjecture a supposition. Well, I'll cut a little yakina. They did not kill him for certain

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Well, what about a lot would you like on the contrary Allah raised him to himself? What kind of lava is he's an

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Hakima and Allah is certainly Mighty and he is wise now. Let me just stop right there.

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I can tell everyone in the class I will be getting the the the class syllabus up as soon as I possibly can

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I'm teaching a class right now and and going out of town next week So I'll try to get taken care of right after that so you can start your pre -reading and things like that But I can tell you right now

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That one of the assignments will be the memorization not of the

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Arabic that you just heard But of the text you just heard I think any self -respecting biblically conservative

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Christian today in our world should be aware of the fact of exactly where it was in The Quran that should beer was just quoting exactly what the text is

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By show of hands how many in the studio audience can give me the exact surah and ayah that should barely was was quoting

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Not seeing any any hands rich. How about how about you rich? No, no, no, no on rich.

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Okay, nobody in the studio audience either You don't see anybody behind you. No, okay

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I'm looking in the in the in the channel. No not seeing anybody in the channel. Yeah, there might be somebody in the break room

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I Ain't seeing too many people waving their hands around but that of course is surah for 157 through 158 surah for 157 through 158

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That is simply going to be one of the assignments is we are going to we are going to memorize that surah

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Because it is of course the singular place in the Quran where the crucifixion of Christ is directly denied

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According to this passage it appeared to the people that they had crucified Jesus But they were not sure that they had crucified him.

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They were in doubt Concerning him on the other hand. What has happened is that it was so made to appear to them

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But God had raised Jesus to himself Muslim commentators on the

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Quran had said that a Semblance was made for the people Someone was made to look like Jesus and this someone was crucified

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Who exactly was this someone cannot be determined for certainty because the Quran does not say

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Some Muslim commentators had said that Jesus had asked for a volunteer from among his disciples and one such

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Volunteer was put to death after being made to look like Jesus Some said that a certain

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Simon of Cyrene Was put to death first the Muslim commentators went around talking to Christians to find out

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What Christians knew about this event and they found out that it was a certain report from early on That a certain

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Simon of Cyrene who was made to carry the cross for Jesus was actually made to look like Jesus And he was crucified instead

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In fact, this story is very old As old as the gospel according to John Those commentators on the gospel according to John point out that John has modified the narrative

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In order to not mention Simon the Cyrene. It is a very important point

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And the reason they say that John has modified The narrative to not mention

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Simon the Cyrene is because in John's day there were some people Who were saying that this

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Simon the Cyrene who carried the cross? Was made to look like Jesus and He was crucified instead some

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Muslim commentators had picked up a story That in fact Judas Iscariot The one disciple of Jesus who had betrayed him who had turned him over to the enemy

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Was in fact that changed to look like Jesus and he was crucified instead of Jesus Now, how would you respond to those claims?

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These are the claims that are made it truly does stretch in in my thinking the the credibility of the mind to imagine that the enemies of Christ who had seen him for multiple years had been

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The the objects of his scorn and his ridicule his parables and his teaching

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The one who had had walked in the temple precincts the man who had taught on the seaside and on the hillside

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The man who had walked their streets and had spoken directly to them that they had tried to trip up over and over again

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That somehow Somehow they could be fooled into Believing that he was on the cross of Calvary When actually it was someone else like Simon or Judas You have to go to the point of saying well

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God Supernaturally did a Star Trek routine, you know, he beamed Jesus out of there and beamed a clone in or something

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I mean you really have to go to an incredible length of some type of supernatural activity not even slightly suggested by anything in the gospel narratives and contradicted by everything in the gospel narratives all of which

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Date to far earlier than any of these later myths and certainly far later than the Quran itself that The Quran such father later than all of that incredible lengths to attempt to explain away the crucifixion which is part and parcel of the entire message of the

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New Testament and so that will be a central element of The debate that evening but of course

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I likewise because I certainly hope and pray and I hope you will Join, even now in beginning to pray for this this event.

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My my Desire is that there will be a number of Muslims in attendance as well more than there were at the debates at Biola University, I would love to see more folks there and That would be very very helpful.

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Yes, sir. Well, first of all Being in the back of the room. There were a lot of Muslims there

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I mean, I'd certainly like to see a higher percentage. I'd say it was probably Maybe two -thirds or a little between 50 % and two -thirds

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Christian you really I didn't see that many people at all There were there were a number and but the thing is that the you know

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I'm Standing there with a camera and somehow I guess you blend in when you're the cameraman and people don't really notice you

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And I had a number of times where you know Muslims are walking by and they're talking and I'm I guess in their mind

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I'm not really there. Yeah, and It it really hit home. You know, there was this one woman

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I think I mentioned it right after the debate then, you know, she was clearly upset. She was clearly

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You know, it's like yeah, I'm leaving this. I'm not gonna put up with this. This is ridiculous and she was

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Clearly impacted by what was what was there? So yeah, we definitely want to have a number of Muslims at the event if we can

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The other thing was is that there are a number of folks from Biola afterwards talking to these people yeah and that again that's the other opportunity of the ship is

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Learning this stuff so that after the debate is over You witnessing opportunities tend to pop up after this kind of thing and you're well -prepared after being on the ship

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You've got this subject down. You've heard the debate. It's lopsided You've got the same kind of scenario where the you know, well

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You're assuming something and not yet an evidence to say well, okay, you know

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In that situation it was and the I could certainly tell that a lot of the Muslims that were there were not happy Well, there's a situation.

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I remember years and years years ago You remember at the City the Lord out in Tempe when I made a gerrymandering on the papacy

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I remember the slamming of the doors. Yes in the middle of the debate. Yeah, and that was lopsided We had Roman Catholics getting up and walking out.

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It was so lopsided on that one and afterwards the Christians that were there were were seeking out

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The the number of little little groups that popped up after that one where there was a lot of witnessing going on and Obviously, especially the folks who are on the cruise will definitely be prepared

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To engage the subject and to explain the gospel in that context. Oh, yeah, that would be a very rare witnessing opportunity

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We don't get to rub elbows with Muslims very often. I don't think in not many of our walks of life and so It will will a lot of situations could pop up afterwards

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Yeah, you never know but we want we I want the reason I raised that issue is

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I want to be able to likewise Emphasize the the sin aspect and the atonement aspect not just the historicity

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But also the atonement aspect. I wanted to be a full I don't want just to be a discussion of you know

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This odd Gnostic group out here in the second century came up with this weird idea. I would like it to be much more focused upon the

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The full orbed concept of the atonement and the cross and things like that.

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So that's the big announcement that's what's coming up that's where you'll be dealing with and Coming up after the break at the bottom of the hour yet another controversial subject

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Some of you have noticed the Dialogue or exchange of some levels between Mr.

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Steve camp and some folks on the pyromaniacs team pyro blog

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Centurion has been the primary Frank Turk has been the primary person making comments

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Steve commented upon a 15 -minute video beautiful video I mean we could we could run our ministry for two years on To put this video together we truly could and There has been much going back and forth as to whether this is a good idea a bad idea

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Should we even? Criticize a good faith effort on the part of what's obviously a very nice man

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The pastor that is in this this this video to seek to Proclaim the gospel or more popularly today to share the gospel

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Should we even? Interact with it. Is it just a matter of hey, you know, everybody has different ways of doing it and You know as long as people are here in the name

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Jesus all as well What what should we do in a situation like this? Well, I Took the time to copy the

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To record the the video in mp3 format and I have selected about five or six segments here in in cues that I have ready to go and I want to play them and I want to interact with them and hopefully do so in a fair fashion

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And so we're gonna do that right after the break. We'll be right back The history of the

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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

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Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045

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Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 -26 -grace

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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

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What is dr Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

31:53

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism defines what the

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Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a

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Defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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And welcome back to the dividing line on a Thursday morning Just a case you're just now turning in don't forget next

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Thursday won't be here. We'll be here Tuesday But not next Thursday heading over to Trinity Fellowship Church in New Jersey see the blog for details

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Just use the search function. It works really well now Either one there are two search functions on the website now

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There is a video stop and think that has of course been making the rounds as I said beautifully made just Of course if you really aren't into acoustic You know beach guitar

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Like get tired of the music track after a while as you will see there's always something going on, but It is of I believe the pastor himself pastor

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Chan who is Taking the world's longest trip to the beach to go surfing he is

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Obviously doing this in in the process. He is talking walking through this beautiful Seaside beach cliff rocks water

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Context and it is like I said very very well done. It's it's a very high production value and There's no no questions about any of any of that The question obviously comes to what it is that is being presented and the context

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In which it is being is being presented and let's face it for the vast majority of evangelicals they would have

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Absolutely, no problem with this video. And the reason I'd have no problem. This video is because they are very very comfortable

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With a presentation that does not call us To a God -centeredness of the gospel, but are very very content with a man -centeredness of the gospel and a man -centered

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Presentation and since that is what they're very comfortable with that's what they hear Sunday in and Sunday out

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They would have absolutely no idea why anyone would have any problem With the presentation of God as a as a as a person who is on his knees begging you to accept his proposal of marriage and and the the entire presentation

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Comes from that foundation now there did seem to me to be evidence that The pastor at least tries two times he mentions the wrath of God doesn't explain it very very broadly

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But you've only got 15 minutes actually 14 minutes 53 seconds or something like that So I you know, this is this is brief

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I've actually asked a friend of mine if he might be able to pull together a very brief gospel presentation.

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I made last year in I think less time period than that maybe as somewhat of a

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Contrast of the of the approaches, but he does twice mentioned the wrath of God in passing but again, what do we hear in this is the impact that having a skewed foundation

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Creates you can say true things But then you're gonna say things afterwards that that remove those true things from the context that would allow them to have the the proper

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Weight the biblical weight that they should have so let's let's listen to a couple of these clips and comment on them as As we go along, you know when you laugh whether you're a person that just you know

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Just laughs your head off or you're one of those people that it's kind of You know, you're trying to hold it in.

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I mean, what is that? What I mean stop it to me That points to God that makes me think you know, what that is amazing that God would create something like laughter

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You know, I Understand that you know, you you want to get people to like you and stuff and that's why you sometimes tell stories and stuff like that But you know even there in California We have a lot of hatred of the

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Christian faith You have a lot of atheists who have broad Exposure through the media and I'm just not so sure that's really an overly compelling apologetic argument

36:38

Especially since for example dogs laugh to did you know the dogs laugh? They're they're they're they're certain kinds of panting they've been able to identify or actually their means of laughter

36:50

So when your dog is going Like that that's probably because he likes what you're doing

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Especially when you're scratching his head and or doing whatever is it is and stuff like that. So but the point is laughter

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Is that really a overly strong apologetic argument? I know this isn't a video on apologetics, but but given what's out there

37:10

Isn't there a little bit stronger argument that can be made even in passing it just struck me as as as odd Really out of place just didn't seem to have have any place in this now.

37:20

Here's some here's an extra It's like you can understand that the whole message of the Bible is not about there's a

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God in heaven who wants to take from you It's about this God who wants to give to you I mean the fact that the

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Creator the one who made all this actually loves us and Wants to give to us and and if you miss out on that you're gonna miss the whole point of your life

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The whole point of your life is is missing out on what

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God wants to give you Again that's that markets real well, that sounds real good.

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But the simple question I have to ask is is That what the Bible teaches is that gonna you know?

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I I have a tagline on the bottom of my emails and it's it's a line that I I first heard from my fellow elder

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Don fried church, but I've since discovered is I googled it once and it's it's all over the place because it's very very true

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What you win them with is what you win them to the message you use to bring them in is going to define the high -water mark of what you can call them to and It's no wonder then that we have entire churches that are aren't really can only go so far

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Because what you've won them with does not allow you to win them to anything higher than that and So the whole message of the

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Bible isn't about you The Bible and its message was true before You were born long before your grandparents were born.

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It was true all the way back It will be true long after we're dust And I just think we get the really wrong idea and give the really wrong idea and we say hey the whole

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Bible's message is all about you So individualistic so Western But as long as you stay the central focus

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God can never end up having that central focus. That's that's the problem

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With so much of what's out there today now Gotta give him credit the pastor tried to talk about God's law

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But once again if you don't start with the proper Understanding of what God's message in the

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Bible is and God's message in the Bible is about him It's what he's doing

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It is what he is doing for his own glory. It is what he is doing throughout all the generations it's what he's doing that will bring him glory in eternity and In our context is what he's is doing in the church

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Which I think gets a bad rap later on down the road in this particular presentation and so if you don't have

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God as the creator and that his law then for us flows naturally from his creative purpose in our lives and That it has a purpose in showing us our sin and pointing us to a

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Redeemer You're gonna end up with a very man -centered view of the law and you're gonna have to convince people that you know the law it

40:32

Don't don't get all mad about the law with God because really it's it's for your good Um, well, yeah, it is for your good if you are repentant and in in proper relationship with God Other than that, it's always gonna be a bummer to you

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No, no two ways about so listen. This is the lengthiest click a clip of that's almost a two two minutes long

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But here but listen what he has to say There's some there's a couple good statements, but again, the foundation is is where the issue comes in the message of the

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Bible isn't About how there's this awful beating up in heaven who's given us these harsh commands that That he just forces upon us

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I mean even his commands it people talk about them like they're a bad thing when his commands are a gift to us

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They're a necessary thing when he says thou shall not murder. He's just saying Look, you know,

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I think your life on earth would be better if you don't kill each other I'm gonna continue it but I have to stop it there before I forget it

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See I at that point I've gotta go Yeah, hey, you know what the purpose of my law is it might be a little bit better if you just don't kill each other

41:42

No, that's not the purpose of the commandment the commandment reflects God's authority to define human life as sacred and to both positively command that life is to be saved as well as to prohibit the taking of Human life and the recognition that God is

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God and that we are under his control It's not you know, hey guys, you know, I'd like to suggest the things might be a little better if you just sort of do things my way

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I You're you're not providing a foundation for an authoritative call to repentance

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When you when you use that kind of a tactic when he says don't steal don't rip each other off He's saying, you know, this would be such a better place to live if you guys didn't rip each other off He didn't lie to each other

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He just kind of were honest with each other and he says, you know If you could love each other as much as you love yourself, this this place would be amazing

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But when we look at these commands like they're an awful thing when in reality we know in our hearts that these are good laws

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They're necessary. That's that's why we get annoyed We get angry when when someone violates these laws because it's a violation of us.

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It's it's hurting us It's hurting someone else we get angry. We don't want to see justice You know there are times when you just want you almost want to see the wrath of God poured out on someone for violating these laws because It's destructive and God's saying you know what these laws are for you

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I think where it gets tough is when we start looking at ourselves and we start thinking. Okay, what about me?

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Like when I think about myself, I know I've broken these commands. I've broken a lot of the commands And honestly, there's a side of me that freaks out thinking

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You know, what? What would it feel like to stand before this? This is awesome Amazing God one day and and have him question me.

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I Used to not think about it a whole lot because I used to feel like I was a pretty good person I feel like you know

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Compared to a lot of other people. I'm good Freak out

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I guess that's okay. All right, I guess that's just sort of the Southern, California Youth thing

43:51

I guess and maybe I'm just showing my age that point but stand before this awesome

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God and freak out and Okay, I admit I got to be careful that I don't you know pick on what isn't

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Actually, you know relevant to the biblical issues here. But the biblical issue is is this really the nature of the law is this?

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Does God command Everywhere to repent or does he just suggest your life would be more cool if you did or well

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We didn't even hear the word repent But if if you were to agree that his laws are okay

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You know that if you would agree that you know, he's sort of yeah, I guess you're right

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There it is leaving that element of it up in the air and that needs to be closed down It's it we don't have the right to question

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God on these things In any way shape or form and as long as we allow man to keep insinuating himself in there and to think he has that that foundation

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Well, it's it's no wonder then that you end up with with the problems that that you have in so many churches today along those lines

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Now, I guess this next section is what has caused a lot of the controversy and the discussion at least from some of the stuff

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That I've read let's let's let's listen to it here Listen if you haven't heard a single thing,

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I've said this whole time. You've got to hear this Despite everything you've done in your life.

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God still loves you and he doesn't want to punish you In fact in the greatest act of love ever

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God himself had his son Come down on the earth take the form of a man and be nailed to a cross

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You see Jesus was taking the punishment for our sins If no one was punished

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God would have been unfair because a crime was committed But the crazy thing is that you and I are guilty

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We're the ones that messed up and then God has his own son punished for us. Why?

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The Bible says it's because he loves us that much Guys, this is the most amazing truth in the world

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The God of the universe loves you Now God's love for his people is

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Indeed central to the whole concept of the atonement and the God's purposes in it and things like that that that's quite true

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But it is not the whole of his purpose that completely again focuses upon man and focuses upon me as an individual rather than the reality that that God is glorifying himself and that in that cross

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He has provided perfect redemption for a very specific group of people without even getting into the

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Arminian universal atonement theology that underlies the statements that were just made and the

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Incoherence of saying well, he's made a payment for these sins and but he didn't really make a payment

46:49

But he sort of did theoretically but not really and it's all up to you Without even getting into that element of it, which if you're reformed you already would agree is is less than stellar

46:59

Really once again, I want to point to the fact that the focus here is upon a God who is trying to do something but who really can't do something and this is this is here is a beautiful video of the effects of synergism

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Here's a beautiful video of the effects of a form of semi Pelagian ism a beautiful video that illustrates what happens when you take elements of the truth and then you allow this foreign concept of results in compatibilism

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Non -compatibilism free libertarianism and things like that to Slide in and determine what you can and cannot say or how you're going to say

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There's nothing here that challenges a person to die to self there's nothing here challenges a person to repent of the sinfulness of having a

47:50

Of even having a worldview where they think they can judge God that's sinful And when you bring people into the church salve their consciences with a with a with a just a little peanut butter repentance

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Is it any wonder that those churches then again cannot proclaim the whole counsel of God without splitting?

48:13

without offending these people right out the door if If you're in a church

48:19

Where there are certain clear biblical truths that cannot be proclaimed

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Well, then you're living the reality of what you win them with is what you win them to and If you don't proclaim the whole counsel of God Then the

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Apostle Paul would say you've got men's blood on your hands He said the

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Ephesian elders. I am innocent of the blood of all men because I have not Refrained from proclaiming anything to you

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I have proclaimed the full counsel of God to you now Not only is that a wonderful thing for the minister to be able to say?

48:58

But the real issue is what does it do the church? When you bring people into the church who in essence are still focused upon themselves

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This this continues that is only there's only two clips left. This continues that concept

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So you have to make a choice See God right now wants to have a relationship with you.

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He wants to forgive you Regardless of anything you've done in your life.

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He wants you but you've got to choose to accept him So you've you've got a

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God who will be eternally unhappy If unless you you help to make it it's almost like there's a guilt trip here

49:42

You know, you need to you need to help God become self -fulfilled and I Neglected earlier to comment on the phraseology.

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God doesn't want to punish you well What do you mean by that? That almost sounds like punishment is something

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God's forced to do in The sense that he would have the freedom to not do that and the whole point of the matter is is that for those in?

50:04

Christ Jesus their punishment Just and righteous punishment falls upon their substitute, but are you really?

50:12

Are you really comfortable? Evidently a lot of people are but are you really comfortable presenting the idea? that when

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God's wrath comes upon sinners That this is something that is

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Causing him despair When when justice is finally done in The eternal state will

50:37

God be unhappy that was done There seemed to be a bunch of folks who believe that but trust me

50:42

I I'm well aware there are all sorts of folks who really do believe that God's just gonna be so bummed out

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He's gonna be crying. You know, he's just gonna be just just so unhappy that Justice is done

50:57

That's why Universalists say well, no God can never be unhappy. And so therefore he's not gonna do justice

51:02

He's gonna save everybody Okay On what basis etc, etc, but see folks don't think about this part

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When you've got a man -centered gospel you end up with a God who's trying to do something and he just can't get it done And he tries and he tries and he tries he doesn't want to punish anybody

51:20

I would suggest to you that to the person who's outside of Jesus Christ the the bringing of God's wrath in justice glorifies

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God otherwise God has created brought injustice into existence sin into existence and he's not glorified in the punishment of it

51:38

It's the incoherence of this system that just keeps coming up over and over and over again in the context of this now someone just Quoted out of context as it normally is the passage from Ezekiel and I'm just gonna have to spend a some time at some point

51:59

Commenting on the gross misuse of Ezekiel 18 by many people today I'm not saying the person who quoted it as is

52:06

Maybe suggesting it that way. I only saw it scrolling by but but many people go to Ezekiel 18 as if the apologetic

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That is being argued there in Ezekiel Which is Ezekiel arguing it's people saying we shouldn't obey

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God because it's already over. It's too late. There can be no repentance We're suffering for our parents sins and so There's there's nothing we can do

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He has a specific context in which he's addressing these things and when people take that and overthrow

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The testimony of entire other portions of Scripture that do not have that same context. They're really misusing

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Ezekiel 18 and and we're gonna have to to get to that Sometime in the future just have to spend a program and and do the whole thing there

52:49

But let's get to the last the last section here. It's a little bit longer And it's it really to me.

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This is this is where the Invitation and in essence is put out there. But instead of an invitation, it's a proposal now listen listen for words like repentance denial of self

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Abandonment of sin listen, especially For anything about the church anything about God's purposes and in uniting us to the body of Christ or anything like that Or is what we hear primarily just sort of well

53:29

California surfer type thing where you can just get together with God and do your thing out on the beach and don't worry about You know any of the rest of stuff what

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I'm talking about isn't a religion It's not about joining some cult or wouldn't just talking to your creator having a relationship with him in fact

53:47

God says We become his bride. It gives that picture of a bride

53:54

It's a picture of intimacy. It's a picture of love. It's a picture of a relationship

53:59

That's that's greater than any relationship and we can experience as human beings. It's intimacy with our

54:06

Creator It's almost as though the God of the universe is proposing to you right now saying look

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I love you I want to forgive you. I want to spend eternity with you man.

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I'll wipe out everything He says he'll forgive you as far as from the East is from the West all the way to the depths of the ocean

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Because man, that's where all the garbage from the past is We'll just put it behind us and let's start this new relationship.

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God's begging you It's like he's on a knee, you know handing you this ring and say man Will you take me will you enter in a relationship with me

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Almighty God and you have to say I do that's it It's saying yes, God. I do man, if you hear anything

54:44

I'm saying Don't go running to some minister this or that just just just get on your knees or just go get along with God and just Say you're creating.

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You know what? I love you Yes, God is on a knee proposing marriage

55:00

I thought the marriage stuff in the New Testament was about the church and There you have the individualism of the

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West Me my Bible in the forest me my

55:16

Bible on the beach whatever There's a balance folks You've got the extreme on one side where the individual relationship with God is gone and it's just all the church

55:28

It's just all the sacraments the church and things like that on the other side You've got the beach guy with the

55:34

Bible and there's no fellowship. There's no relationship. There's no body And smack down the middle you have the biblical perspective that God is

55:43

Forming a people and that's plural by the way people, you know, there's more than one person

55:49

Who are zealous for good deeds and there is this thing called the church and I don't go run to some minister or something like that Okay, the minister can't save you you definitely need to have that that that that Personal act of repentance and faith in Christ no two ways about it.

56:07

But what's he calling you to? as far as I can tell from this having a cool life by by getting

56:15

Getting personal with Jesus that seems to be the whole thing the idea of Of repentance death to self a new life with new priorities relationship to God's people

56:32

Recognizing the the importance of these things. It's not there. It's not there now Let's uh, let's be fair to all of the various and sundry

56:42

Arguments that could be put forward in in defense. Many people would say well look

56:49

That wasn't what he was meaning to do he's just getting a start here Okay, but aren't there certain non -negotiable foundational things that you have to include in getting that start?

57:03

Aren't there certain things that you have to include if you're really gonna say you're proclaiming the gospel as the gospel.

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I think that there are and They're missing from this presentation as pretty as it is as nice a man as pastor

57:19

Chan seems to be They're not there and what you win them with is what you win them, too and It's troubling

57:33

It's it's important that we talk about these things. I think we need to talk about these things.

57:38

I think we need to do so without You Know mean -spiritedness or anything like that But we need to focus upon these things and we need to ask ourselves as we look at the church as it exists as a whole today

57:52

Why is there so little concern? about godliness so little concern about God's truth application in life and I really think it comes down to what you win them with is what you win them, too

58:07

And If you use the least common denominator gospel to start don't be overly surprised if you're left with nothing

58:15

But a fellowship filled with people who are still very much in love with themselves Who very much consider themselves to be in charge of this thing called the

58:25

Christian life? Well, there's my comments. I'm sure I've now offended just about everybody else. So hey, you know, that's what we do the thing around here

58:31

Don't forget to be watching the web page this evening first thing in the morning for the information that you can get signed up for The SeaTac Marriott the

58:39

Shabbir Ali debate on the subject of the cross October 19th We'll give you more details on the Glasgow Glasgow stuff coming up, too

58:46

Good to have you with us. Don't forget next Thursday. No dividing line, but we will be here on Tuesday regular time 11 o 'clock See you then god bless

59:06

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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks