The Gospel According to Bitcoin: Jordan Bush & Daniel Sherman DMW#256

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The Gospel According to Bitcoin and the Show Introduction

The gospel according to Bitcoin, what does that even mean? Stick around. Let's find out. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location.

Dead Men Walking starts now.

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast. I'm your host, Greg, and thanks for coming along, man. Thanks for sharing with a friend. Thanks for checking us out at dmwpodcast .com, where you can find out more about us and support us through the merch store.

Thanks for sharing. Thanks for following on socials. We love it all. We've got a good episode for you today, sat down with Jordan Bush and Daniel Sherman. But first, I got to tell you about Dominion Wealth Strategist.

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Cool.

Guys, thanks for joining us on the Deadman Walking podcast. Had an absolutely fun episode. Anytime we have Jordan Bush on, I have a good time, and he brought along Daniel Sherman with him as well, too.

They've got a new book coming out. You can actually order it right now, of course, by clicking on the link below. It'll be all linked up there for you. It's called The Gospel According to Bitcoin, which I kind of like that title.

You know, previously, Jordan was involved with writing Thank God for Bitcoin. Now, he has The Gospel According to Bitcoin, and it's kind of, you know, it's a nice little saucy title there might get some people upset, but I, you know, I kind of like it.

It's maybe it's a marketing ploy there, but it's very cool. We talked about how they compare the characteristics of Bitcoin to gospel characteristics, how Bitcoin is godly, how it can be used for God's kingdom.

And we just had, I don't know, probably about a thirty five, forty minute discussion about that. We also talked about where crypto is going in the next four years with Trump taking over. We have already seen a Trump bump kind of in crypto with as of the recording of this, I think Bitcoin is well up over one hundred thousand dollars.

So we talked about where we see that going in the next few years, why it's good for people to be aware of that, especially believers just using it as another tool. I chimed in always with my broken record of recognizing that money is nothing more than time and labor converted into something you can carry in your pocket.

So let's remember that when we say the word money or taxes or fiat money or anything like that. Money is just your labor, is just your time and labor, and it is converted into something you can carry around in your pocket.

So that's how we should treat money is as someone's time and labor. And when you start looking at it that way, you start to realize that love your neighbor as yourself. Many of the teachings of Christ start to come into play on how you treat money is also how you treat people.

So, yeah, it was a good episode. The link for the book is below. I would recommend it. I have a copy of it. I have a preorder copy of it. Excuse me. I don't have it in my hands yet, but I will get it and I will be reading it.

I liked Thank God for Bitcoin. I'm sure Bitcoin, the gospel of Bitcoin or the gospel according to Bitcoin is going to be awesome. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this episode. So on this New Year's Day, you're listening to this in twenty twenty five.

We've made it. We started this podcast April twenty twenty five. So we'll be coming up on our five year anniversary shortly. New Year's Day episode January 1st is when this is dropping. Guys, welcome to twenty twenty five.

Why not start it off with a little finance talk, a little Bitcoin talk, a little gospel talk, everything that we love as we go in to the new year. So the next thing you will hear is myself, Daniel Sherman and Jordan Bush talking Bitcoin and the gospel.

Here we go. So, Jordan, Dan, welcome back to the Deadman Walking podcast.

Thanks for having us, brother. Appreciate you.

Yeah, it's good to have you. Dan, remind me, were you on originally a long, long time ago or no?

Was it just. You know, this is my first time.

Dude, welcome.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good. Yeah, thanks from Jordan.

But yeah, you know, what's really funny, too, is like when I first started this, it'll be five years in April. I went, you know, I had these great conversations with people. I will never forget a guest.

The conversation now, five years in, 400 episodes later, you know, one to two a week. You go, have you been on? Have we had an hour conversation or not?

So I apologize that people are offended. They're like, you know, this is actually really moving. We talked about the death of my father.

No, right.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. So so for the new listeners and since, Dan, you haven't been on before, let's start with you. But Dan and Jordan, give us just a little origin story of you guys, a little bit about yourself so the listeners can get to know you.

Dan, what's up?

Daniel Sherman's Ministry and Jordan Bush's Bitcoin Origin Story

Yeah, sure. I can start. So my name is Daniel Sherman, or you can just call me Dan. I live near Toronto and got a wife, three kids. I've been working with Power to Change Ministries for most of my adult life.

Started as a missionary in the Far East and then been working in southwestern Ontario here for the last 15 years or so. And Power to Change is the sister ministry of CRU. I'm sure a lot of your listeners might be familiar with CRU, one of the largest missions agencies in the world.

And so I oversee, I'm what's called the National Campus Strategies Director. So I oversee our field. So I oversee everything from East Coast to West Coast, all of the leaders that work within our ministry and that they're doing anything ministry related in person with students.

I oversee them. So that's my shtick. And then, yeah, obviously we'll get into the book later, but I'll leave it there.

Yeah, that's pretty crazy, too, because in our church about two or three years ago, there was a huge influx of CRU members, probably added to our church, about a hundred people from the local chapter at University of Toledo.

Wow.

Got very they had some leaders and some people in members in there and they started to come and, hey, you got to check out this church. And it was right after COVID. And it was it was really crazy how the church kind of, you know, we went from 300 to we're about 750 now, four years later.

But that year was probably about 100 to 125 people who were a part of CRU or had been introduced. You know what I mean? And it was just a really crazy thing. So, yeah, I have some familiarity with that.

Jordan, how about you, brother?

Yeah, so this is my I believe my third time on the podcast, if I'm not mistaken. But, yeah, I was I was a missionary church pointer, Reformed Baptist church pointer, lived and ministered in Montevideo, Uruguay, lived there with my wife and are now four kids.

And so while we were planning a church there, I ended up basically half of our church members were Venezuelan immigrants. And so I just started to try to understand why so many of them were fleeing their country and, you know, found out that that was due to currency devaluation.

The government created a bunch of, you know, a bunch of currency units that ended up resulting in the currency being becoming worthless. So they had to flee to try to get jobs to send money home to their to their families and stuff.

And so so just, you know, helped. I was a missionary for we were there for just shy of seven years. I pastored the church for two years and then we ended up combining our church plant with another small church plant, Reformed Baptist church plant.

And and so then I ended up coming back once I started to have. Yeah, there's more it's more to it than this. But basically I started to have a Presbyterian sympathies. And so so I we kind of came back to the States and we're trying to figure out, you know, what do we do now?

And and so it was during the last I guess the second to last year that we were there. I helped contribute to the to a book called Thank God for Bitcoin. I'd been buying Bitcoin since twenty nineteen and it just really started to think about the the philosophy of and like the ethics of money production and thinking about them through a Christian lens.

And so we ended up writing that book, had the immense privilege and joy of experiencing every Protestant's dream, which was the book came out the same week as a book by the pope. And we were outselling him.

So we said, take that. We said, take that, Bishop of Rome, where are you at? And so then it just kind of I didn't know that. Yeah, just set up a whole crazy, crazy thing we've sold. I mean, by the grace of God, we've we've sold probably near 50000 books at this point, which, again, I knew nothing about anything related to the publishing world.

But we've talked to some people who just said, like, that is a ton of books. There's not very many, you know, popular level books that that, you know, Christian books that move that kind of inventory, especially if they're self-published.

So we self-published through Amazon. And so, yeah, so it's just been a wild ride. And so when we came back, I just started looking for a job. Well, I figured out my got my theological ducks in a row.

And so, again, in God's providence and kindness, some of the other authors of Thank God for Bitcoin were either Bitcoin OGs who've been buying Bitcoin since it was under five dollars a coin or entrepreneurs who started and exited businesses.

And so they just basically said, hey, while you're trying to figure out what else you're going to do, if you want to help Christians, you obviously care about this Christian world. You understand, you see the consequences of all these things.

If you want to do this full time, we'll fund you for a couple of years to basically do it. And so I thought about it and just basically said, man, this is exactly what I want to do right now. And so that's what I've been doing for the last two and a half years.

Oh, that's awesome, man. Yeah. And thank God for Bitcoin, the book, I have a copy of that, read that. Absolutely phenomenal. And yeah, 50 ,000 copies for self-published first time. That is pretty amazing.

I mean, I think Mark Driscoll bought that many of his own books just to try to get him.

Into the top 10.

So, I mean, that's that's awesome. But, you know, and it's not lost on me, either, that both you guys are dressed as if you're asking for 50 billion dollars for Ukraine. I got a couple of Zalinsky's over here.

I like it. More the green, the marine green.

I left my little my little patch. He's always got that little patch and I left it off screen.

But now I joke, but it's a serious matter. I want to talk about the book that's dropping. Is it has it? Has it dropped yet?

Is it out? We are hitting publish later today. So it will be hopefully by the time this goes live, it'll it'll be available.

Yeah. So here is our live now, though. But yeah, yeah, I should be available by the time I want to talk to both of you about the.

Book, obviously, but also want to get into like we have this renewed. I'm telling you, man, Trump is the crypto president because it's the day after he got elected. I had crypto bros and everyone who we were trading back in 17 and 18 coming out going, all right, we're back.

And you just start to realize it's a real the money. The money isn't fiat when I'm talking about Bitcoin. It's a limited supply. It's good. But, man, there's really a confidence thing that goes along with trading, too.

Like if you feel like it's safe to trade or it's going to be good to trade, it really gets a boost. And we obviously we see the price of Bitcoin the last few weeks. But before we get into that, tell me about the book.

Either one of you guys can jump in, tell me the name of the book when it's coming out,.

What it's all about. Go for it, Dan.

Yeah, the book is called The Gospel According to Bitcoin. I'll give you a bit of my origin story with this one. So I have to yeah, the gospel according to Bitcoin. So my my father, he works he has a very unique job.

I've told Jordan about this, but he's basically a chaplain or like a missionary to the up and out of Ottawa as opposed to the down out. So he remember he ministers to members of parliament. He's a prayer with Justin Trudeau, Stephen Harper, all these guys.

He's on a first name basis with them. He he ministers to foreign ambassadors and upper tier business leaders in the Ottawa area. And so he's been he's basically spent the last 30 years or so of his life investing in reaching world leaders.

That's like that's what he does for his career as a missionary. And he's invited me to follow in his footsteps and join him in that. I never really felt a calling to do that specifically. But but when I discovered Bitcoin back in 2020, I realized that there's something here and that the the next, you know, bag holders of world wealth could very well be the Bitcoiners of the world and that the Christian world is asleep on this.

And we're not we're not going out of our way to to reach these people. And so after becoming a Bitcoiner myself, I thought I'd put on my my evangelical hat that I wear, you know, in full time ministry and and get after and see what are some ways that we can actually do kind of the opposite of what Thank God for Bitcoin did.

Thank God for Bitcoin was to introduce Bitcoin to Christians. And this one we're trying to introduce Jesus to Bitcoiners. And we're specifically using Bitcoin as a framework, just like Jesus would have used money in like 11 of his 39 parables to present the kingdom of God to people.

We're using Bitcoin as a framework to present the kingdom of God to Bitcoiners. And so, yeah, it's called 21. It's subtitles 21 meditations kind of meant to be read almost almost devotional style. I don't want to use the word devotional, but like meditation style, one a day kind of thing and just have a reflection on a principle from Bitcoin, something that's true about it and then how it could it can relate and how it unfolds or illuminates a principle from the kingdom of God.

And the whole point is to try and introduce people to Christ through that.

Wow, that's so good, because, you know, in my mind, this is why authors are so special, and I don't think I'll ever be one because I get these big ideas and then it just takes time to really to take them down to where they need to be.

Like, I understand, like if I look at, you know, non gold backed fiat currency, moving decimals at a Federal Reserve usury interest rates was a fractional banking. You go, well, that's evil. I don't see any godly principles in that.

Then when I see like a Bitcoin that's like limited supply, you know, fair for all, there really can't be theft or cheating. And you go, well, that seems like it has godly characteristics and principles.

It's nice to see that you guys took those and boil it down to, you know, actually kind of comparing that and going, yeah, there are some characteristics of Bitcoin and crypto that are actually found in the gospel.

Can you guys give me like a sneak peek? Can you give us a sneak peek of like an example or two, like what might be in there that you can make a comparison to?

Yeah, I'll say one more thing, too. So about Dan, I ran I ran across Dan's YouTube channel. He's I think it's is it. Huddling Jesus is actually the name of the channel.

I got three videos from.

Yeah, he's got three videos, again, from like the last three years.

So, again, there's not like there's three really good videos, but they are.

And so what really hit me is that, again, I again, both of us are have been missionaries and think think and have have missionary hearts. And so when I saw these videos, I was like, oh, man, this guy is thinking about this just like me.

And and so basically this book has been again, we're nowhere near as verbose as C .S. Lewis. But basically the goal is kind of like if C .S. Lewis wrote a book about Bitcoin, like what would it look like and what would it what would it try to do?

And so that's kind of what this book does. I would say, again, that not trying to, you know, exalt ourselves, but like, again, that's kind of the that was the goal. That's kind of the attempt. And so I don't know, I'll let Dan give his his own, but the one that I always the one that I always mention when I talk to people about this, that's kind of like the easiest to grasp.

They're not always they're all these the meditations aren't specific to Bitcoin, but there's there's elements of it where some of them are specific. There's other ones that are just more general. They're about money more broadly and about scarce money and different ways that that works and the consequences that it has in society.

So but the one that I always mention to people is that I'll never forget. I had this, you know, basically a couple of years ago, I was trying to send a Bitcoin transaction. And every time you send a transaction, you have to include a little bit more than the amount of money that you initially you actually want to send.

You have to include a little bit more to incentivize that transaction to be included in the the next batch of transactions that happens every every 10 minutes. And so I sent this transaction at a time when basically Bitcoin's price was going up a lot.

And so there weren't a lot of transactions because when Bitcoin is pumping, people don't want to sell it. So I said this transaction included a very small fee, the smallest possible, a few pennies. And a couple of weeks later, I happened to check on the transaction and it hadn't gone through.

And so I thought, oh, no, I broke Bitcoin. And I thought, oh, no, my transaction's lost. And so I reached out to I have the ridiculous privilege to have literally one of the probably top 20 experts in the world about Bitcoin who happened to author our co-author to think of a Bitcoin with us.

So I just reached out to Jimmy and I said, Jimmy, I sent this transaction. It didn't go through. You know what? What do I what do I do? What did I do wrong? And he goes, oh, no worries. He's like, you just need to send what's called a child pays for parent transaction.

And I said to myself or I said to him, I was like, oh, great. What's a child pays for parent transaction? And he said, so basically what you do is you have to send another transaction. Basically from the same address to the same address, the same address you were sending to.

And if you add, you just add more, you know, add another, you know, just send the same transaction. It doesn't have to be the same amount or anything, but you have to include the same like more of a fee.

And when you do that, that transaction will incentivize the miners to include it. And basically it will knock through the first transaction. And so as I did that, it ended up working. I was grateful that I hadn't broken Bitcoin.

And as soon as I saw that it worked, it just hit me. I was like, this is the same like a child pays for parent transaction follows the same logic as the gospel. Because like we are like with, you know, God creates people.

He has he has a mission for us to complete. He has a goal. And by sinning, we fall short of the glory of God. We're not able to get to the end place where God wants us to get to. So what is God's solution?

He sends a second transaction. He sends another man. OK, he sends another man to to complete and follow through and arrive where we fell short. And by his doing that, it enables us to to make it through as well, make it to the end goal that he has.

And so, again, when that hit me, I was just like, what are the odds that that is something that that's true, that this, you know, weird facet of this, you know, magical Internet money, Bitcoin, that this would also be true of, you know, this very, you know, just spiritual principle that we could write theological books, books have been written about this.

What are the odds that you'd have this same kind of thing that would be that would work in within this? And so, yeah, so we just started looking at Bitcoin. And the more that we were looking at Bitcoin, either in particular or just things about money more generally, we just saw just came to the realization there's a reason why Jesus spent so much time talking about money, both because it's revelatory, because of what it does in the world, the effects that it has.

And so we just have a bunch of a bunch of, you know, meditations about these ideas. Again, this is not to try to say, you know, Bitcoin is the greatest thing since I spread it. It's not meant to do that at all.

It's just meant to help people think about Bitcoin and money through a lens that maybe they're not familiar thinking about it if they're only seeing about Bitcoin on like CNBC or Fox Business or something like that.

Yeah, no, that's really good. It's fun to think about, too, that there was a transaction that failed and a greater transaction that that helped the completion of the transaction. Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah.

A lot of analogies there. So did you guys both contribute to the book then?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We again, you're talking about the process of writing, writing a book, Greg, and you're like, I don't think I could ever do because of how much time it takes. We actually anticipated having this book done about a year and a half ago.

And it just took us a lot longer to get everything done and then just to do all the things that are related to it.

So, well, hey, let me can I can we go behind the curtain, see how the sausage is made? So you guys are in two different countries, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So how does that go when you're writing a book? Because there's a lot of listeners here, I know, too, that will probably one day either want to write a book or collab on something or they might be in media themselves and podcasting.

When you're in two different countries and you're collabing on a book, how does that work? Are you guys going, hey, I'm taking this section. I'll take this and we'll exchange notes and then we'll figure it.

I mean, is there a lot of Zoom calls involved, a lot of text? Like what's going on with that, Dan? When Jordan comes to you and says, hey, we, you know, or maybe it didn't happen that way, maybe you came you came to him.

But either way, we go, we got an idea for a book. We got to get started on it.

Writing the Book Across Borders

Yeah, there's definitely been highs and lows in communication over the last couple of years, but yeah, the initial call that we had, we actually had two other guys, I think, on that call wasn't like Pastor Coyne and another dude on that call, too.

And and we decide, OK, this is going to be actually just Jordan and I, this book, because they had other stuff that they were working on. Yeah, well, we just we just combined all of our efforts and I opened up, you know, Google Docs and we started throwing down, throwing down some ideas and and got the chapters kind of sorted.

We actually both contributed a number of chapters and then we brought it to our buddy who's a Christian Bitcoiner, a shout out to Oshawa, and he looked at it and said, dude, you guys are writing two different books, which is kind of one of the worst things you can hear when you're like, we thought we were going to be publishing.

With the next like month or two. And then he read it and was like, actually, I think this is like two different books.

So so then then now came the machete and we're just like, OK, we got to hack this thing.

Down. And that's it for that second book you guys do together.

Hold on. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. We basically end up having one was more of like, yeah, meditation for almost like devotional stuff for Bitcoiners. Another one was more of like a philosophy of money and Christianity.

They're kind of distinct. Anyways, we yeah, a lot of a lot of late nights writing. Yeah. Jordan's been really helpful. Jordan's taken I've done the majority of the writing and a lot of the editing. Jordan's taken more of the marketing and and really using the leverage to thank God for Bitcoin has to help accelerate this.

And so I feel like we've kind of come to a point now where we're a really good team and we're yeah, we're excited to see how far it can go.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

No, that's awesome. I would just think it would be, you know, it's it's it's difficult enough if you sit down and try to accomplish something yourself. But obviously, when you have partners, especially when there's distance in between you, you know, I just feel like there'd be a lot of challenges there, a lot of late night text or, you know, corrections or, you know, ideas, because that's how it is for me.

I don't know how it is for you and you guys, right. But it's like if I don't write that, I mean, I have a notepad next to my bed and I'll wake up at two o 'clock and think of something. And I write that down or it's lost or gone forever.

I couldn't imagine the challenge of like, Dan, you said you're doing a lot of the writing and having to bounce it off people, stuff like that. But I like the I like the second book that you had to cut.

That should be the next book. The philosophy of Bitcoin. See, that's the one that's the one I would look to and go, OK, I like that one because I love searching the scriptures and you see how parallels in the parables that Jesus talked about money, like you were saying, Jordan, you know, I can make so many parallels to sound money in what Christ preached about, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's kind of that's kind of the goal. So I already have a tentative title. It's basically like, let's see, the economics of glory. Let's see. Yeah, basically economics of glory.

And then there's a subtitle. I can't remember what the subtitle was offhand. But yeah, that's basically the goal is like looking at money through a different perspective. Again, there's like thinking about what money is and what it does through the lens of just things that the scriptures talk about is this incredibly fruitful place.

It's been it's been one of the most fruitful exercises that I've, you know, participated in the last, you know, really five years I've been kind of working on this thing. So, you know, I don't know.

On the spine of a book, if people are looking at it, I think Jesus was a Bitcoin, bro. It's pretty catchy from a marketing aspect. I get people to at least pick up the book, you know, I think.

Thank God for Bitcoin already kind of communicates that sentiment.

Yeah, we. So we're all about the provocative titles, though.

Yeah, I like it. So let's shift gears here for a minute. So, well, really quickly, though, before we do that, I'm getting ahead of myself. When is the book being released?

Yeah. So it's available for preorder right now on our website. If you go to TGFB .com and go to our store tab, you can you can preorder it there. And then it should be releasing on Amazon. We're going to actually hit publish later this afternoon.

We've been waiting for you to update a couple of things. And so once we once we get those things updated, then it'll be OK.

By the time this comes out, link will be down there. You guys can preorder and buy by then. OK. And we'll make sure it's linked up. So if you guys are listening right now, don't worry. Just go click below in the description whether you're watching or listening.

So so what is going on with crypto right now? I'm seeing a resurgence. Like I said at the top of the show, right after Trump's reelection, I just saw the confidence soar. We saw that in the price of Bitcoin.

I got guys coming out, my brother, who's never really. Hey, what's going on with crypto? Weren't you into that a while ago? And I'm going, man, all these people are starting to go, OK. I remember when those times were really rocking in 16, 17, 18 into 19.

There were you know, when you have from the top up the president down, I guess you could say, and they're kind of open to that. That gives people confidence in that. What do you what do you guys see in as guys in the market that understand that?