The Gospel According to Bitcoin: Jordan Bush & Daniel Sherman DMW#256

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Hey listeners, this is Chuck with Private Family Banking, glad to be here with you today. It's a chilly day here in South Texas.

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Stick around. Let's find out. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location,

01:59

Dead Men Walking starts now. Hello.

02:12

Hello. Hello. Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

02:18

I'm your host, Greg. And thanks for coming along, man. Thanks for sharing with a friend.

02:24

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02:30

Thanks for sharing. Thanks for following on socials. We love it all. We've got a good episode for you today, sat down with Jordan Bush and Daniel Sherman.

02:41

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Guys, remember private family banking, finance yourself. And of course, lastly, what do we believe?

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What do we believe by Andrew Rappaport? Click the link below and you can grab that. Cool. Guys, thanks for joining us on the dead man walking podcast.

05:29

Had an absolutely fun episode. Any time we have Jordan Bush on, I have a good time. And he brought along Daniel Sherman with him as well, too.

05:37

They've got a new book coming out. You can actually order it right now, of course, by clicking on the link below. It'll be all linked up there for you, called

05:45

The Gospel According to Bitcoin, which I kind of like that title.

05:50

You know, previously, Jordan was involved with writing, Thank God for Bitcoin. Now he has The Gospel According to Bitcoin.

05:57

And it's kind of, you know, it's a nice little saucy title there. Might get some people upset, but I, you know,

06:02

I kind of like it. It's maybe it's a marketing ploy there, but it's very cool. We talked about how they compare the characteristics of Bitcoin to gospel characteristics, how

06:11

Bitcoin is godly, how it can be used for God's kingdom. And we just had, I don't know, probably about a 35, 40 minute discussion about that.

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We also talked about where crypto is going in the next four years with Trump taking over. We have already seen a

06:23

Trump bump kind of in crypto with as of the recording of this, I think Bitcoin's well up over $100 ,000.

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So we talked about where we see that going in the next few years, why it's good for people to be aware of that, especially believers just using it as another tool.

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I chimed in always with my broken record of recognizing that money is nothing more than time and labor converted into something you can carry in your pocket.

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So let's remember that when we say the word money or taxes or fiat money or anything like that, money is just your labor.

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It's just your time and labor, and it is converted into something you can carry around in your pocket. So that's how we should treat money is as someone's time and labor.

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And when you start looking at it that way, you start to realize that love your neighbor as yourself. Many of the teachings of Christ start to come into play on how you treat money is also how you treat people.

07:17

So, yeah, it was a good episode. The link for the book is below. I would recommend it.

07:23

I have a copy of it or I have a preorder copy of it. Excuse me. I don't have it in my hands yet, but I will get it and I will be reading it.

07:30

I liked Thank God for Bitcoin. I'm sure Bitcoin, the gospel of Bitcoin or the gospel according to Bitcoin is going to be awesome.

07:37

I think you guys are really going to enjoy this episode, too. So on this New Year's Day, you're listening to this in twenty twenty five.

07:44

We've made it. We started this podcast April twenty twenty five. So we'll be coming up on our five year anniversary shortly.

07:50

New Year's Day episode January 1st is when this is dropping. Guys, welcome to twenty twenty five. Why not start it off with a little finance talk, a little

07:57

Bitcoin talk, a little gospel talk, everything that we love as we go in to the new year.

08:03

So the next thing you will hear is myself, Daniel Sherman and Jordan Bush talking

08:10

Bitcoin and the gospel. Here we go. So Jordan, Dan, welcome back to. The Deadman Walking podcast.

08:16

Thanks for having us, brother. Appreciate you. Yeah, it's good to have you. Dan, remind me, were you on originally a long, long time ago or no?

08:24

Was it just, you know, this is my first time. Dude, welcome. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

08:30

It's good. Yeah. I love it. Thanks from Jordan. But is it? Yeah. You know, what's really funny, too, is like when

08:35

I first started this, it'll be five years in April. I went, you know, I had these great conversations with people. I will never forget a guest.

08:42

The conversation now, five years in, 400 episodes later, you know, one to two a week. You go, have you been on?

08:48

Have we had an hour conversation or not? So I apologize that people are offended. They're like, you know, this is actually really moving.

08:55

We talked about the death of my father. No, right. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So so for the new listeners and since,

09:04

Dan, you haven't been on before. Let's start with you. But Dan and Jordan, give us just a little origin story of you guys, a little bit about yourself so the listeners can get to know you.

09:12

Dan, what's up? Yeah, sure. I can start. So my name is Daniel Sherman, or you can just call me Dan. I live near Toronto and got a wife, three kids.

09:22

I've been working with Power to Change Ministries for most of my adult life. So started as a missionary in the

09:29

Far East and then been working in southwestern Ontario here for the last 15 years or so.

09:36

And Power to Change is the sister ministry of CREW. I'm sure a lot of your listeners might be familiar with CREW, one of the largest missions agencies in the world.

09:46

And so I oversee what's called the National Campus Strategies Director. So I oversee our field.

09:52

So I oversee everything from East Coast to West Coast, all of the leaders that work within our ministry and that they're doing anything ministry related in person with students.

10:01

I oversee them. So that's my shtick. And then, yeah, obviously we'll get into the book later, but I'll leave it there.

10:09

Yeah, that's that's pretty crazy, too, because in our church, about two or three years ago, there was a huge influx of crew members, probably added to our church, about 100 people from the local chapter at University of Toledo.

10:22

Wow. Got very they had some leaders and some people and members in there and they started to come and, hey, you got to check out this church.

10:29

And it was right after COVID. And it was it was really crazy how the church kind of, you know, we went from 300 to we're about 750 now, four years later.

10:37

But that year was probably about 100 to 125 people who were a part of crew or had been introduced.

10:44

You know what I mean? And it was just a really crazy thing. So, yeah, I have some familiarity with that. Jordan, how about you, brother? Yeah, so this is my

10:51

I believe my third time on the podcast, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, I was I was a missionary church pointer,

10:57

Reformed Baptist church pointer, lived and ministered in Montevideo, Uruguay, lived there with my wife and are now four kids.

11:06

And so while we were planning a church there, I ended up basically half of our church members were Venezuelan immigrants.

11:12

And so I just started to try to understand why so many of them were were fleeing their country and, you know, found out that that was due to currency devaluation.

11:21

The government created a bunch of, you know, a bunch of currency units that ended up resulting in the currency being becoming worthless.

11:29

So they had to flee to try to get jobs to send money home to their to their families and stuff. And so so just, you know, helped.

11:35

I was a missionary for we were there for just shy of seven years. I started I pastored the church for two years and then we ended up combining our church plant with another small church plant,

11:45

Reformed Baptist church plant. And and so then it up coming back once I started to have again, there's more it's more to it than this.

11:52

But basically, I started to have a Presbyterian sympathies. And so so I we kind of came back to the

11:59

States and we're trying to figure out, you know, what do we do now? And and so it was during the last, I guess, the second to last year that we were there,

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I helped contribute to the to a book called Thank God for Bitcoin. I'd been buying Bitcoin since twenty nineteen and it just really started to think about the the philosophy of and like the ethics of money production and thinking about them through a

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Christian lens. And so we ended up writing that book, had the immense privilege and joy of experiencing every

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Protestant's dream, which was the book came out the same week as a book by the pope and we were outselling him.

12:30

So we said, take that. We said, take that, Bishop of Rome. Where are you at? And so then it just kind of I didn't know.

12:37

Yeah, just set up a whole crazy, crazy thing we've sold. I mean, by the grace of God, we've we've sold probably near fifty thousand books at this point, which again,

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I knew nothing about anything related to the publishing world. But we've talked to some people who just said, like, that is a ton of books.

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There's not very many, you know, popular level books that that, you know, Christian books that move that kind of inventory, especially if they're self -published.

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So we self -published through Amazon. And so, yeah, so it's just been a wild ride. And so when we came back,

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I just started looking for a job. Well, I figured out my my got my theological ducks in a row.

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And so, again, in God's providence and kindness, some of the other authors of Thank God for Bitcoin were either

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Bitcoin OG's who've been buying Bitcoin since it was under five dollars a coin or entrepreneurs who started and exited businesses.

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And so they just basically said, hey, while you're trying to figure out what else you're going to do, if you want to help Christians, you obviously care about this

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Christian world. You understand you see the consequences of all these things. If you want to do this full time, we'll fund you for a couple of years to basically do it.

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And so I thought about it and just basically said, man, this is exactly what I want to do right now. And so that's what

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I've been doing for the last two and a half years. Oh, that's awesome, man. Yeah. And thank God for Bitcoin, the book. I have a copy of that.

13:52

Read that. Absolutely phenomenal. And yeah, 50 ,000 copies for self -published first time.

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That is pretty amazing. I mean, I think Mark Driscoll bought that many of his own books just to try to get him into the top 10.

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So, I mean, that's that's awesome. But, you know, and it's not lost on me, either, that both you guys are dressed as if you're asking for 50 billion dollars for Ukraine.

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I got a couple of Zalinsky's over here. I like it. More the green, the marine green.

14:20

I left my little my little patch, you know, that he's always got that little patch and I left it off screen.

14:26

But now I joke, but it's a serious matter. I want to talk about the book that's dropping. Is it has it?

14:31

Has it dropped yet? Is it out? We are hitting publish later today. So it will be hopefully by the time this goes live, it'll it'll be available.

14:39

Yeah. So here is our live now, though. But yeah, yeah, I should be available by the time I want to talk to both of you about the book, obviously, but also want to get into like we have this renewed

14:48

I'm telling you, man, Trump is the crypto president because it's the day after he got elected. I had crypto bros and everyone who we were trading back in 17 and 18 coming out going, all right, we're back.

14:58

And you just start to realize it's a real the money. The money isn't fiat when

15:03

I'm talking about Bitcoin. It's a limited supply. It's good. But, man, there's really a confidence thing that goes along with trading, too.

15:10

Like if you feel like it's safe to trade or it's going to be good to trade, it really gets a boost. And we obviously we see the price of Bitcoin the last few weeks.

15:17

But before we get into that, tell me about the book. Either one of you guys can jump in. Tell me the name of the book when it's coming out, what it's all about.

15:25

Go for it, Dan. Yeah, the book is called The Gospel According to Bitcoin. I'll give you a bit of my origin story with this one.

15:31

So I have to yeah, the gospel according to Bitcoin. So my my father, he works he has a very unique job.

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I've told Jordan about this, but he's basically a chaplain or like a missionary to the up and out of Ottawa as opposed to the down out.

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So he ministers to members of parliament. He's at prayer with Justin Trudeau, Stephen Harper, all these guys.

15:51

He's on a first name basis with them. He ministers to foreign ambassadors and upper tier business leaders in the

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Ottawa area. And so he's been he's basically spent the last 30 years or so of his life investing in reaching world leaders.

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That's like that's what he does for his career as a missionary. And he's invited me to follow in his footsteps and join him in that.

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I never really felt a calling to do that specifically. But but when I discovered Bitcoin back in 2020,

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I realized that there's something here and that the the next, you know, bag holders of world wealth could very well be the

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Bitcoiners of the world and that the Christian world is asleep on this. And we're not we're not going out of our way to to reach these people.

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And so after becoming a Bitcoiner myself, I thought I'd put on my my evangelical hat that I wear, you know, in full time ministry and and get after and see what are some ways that we can actually do kind of the opposite of what

16:51

Thank God for Bitcoin did. Thank God for Bitcoin was to introduce Bitcoin to Christians. And this one we're trying to introduce

16:57

Jesus to Bitcoiners. And we're specifically using Bitcoin as a framework, just like Jesus would have used money in like 11 of his 39 parables to present the kingdom of God to people.

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We're using Bitcoin as a framework to present the kingdom of God to Bitcoiners. And so, yeah, it's called 21.

17:14

It's subtitles 21 meditations kind of meant to be read almost almost devotional style.

17:19

I don't want to use the word devotional, but like meditation style, one a day kind of thing and just have a reflection on a principle from Bitcoin, something that's true about it and then how it could it can relate and how it unfolds or illuminates a principle from the kingdom of God.

17:36

And the whole point is to try and introduce people to Christ through that. Wow, that's so good, because, you know, in my mind, this is why authors are so special.

17:44

And I don't think I'll ever be one because I get these big ideas and then it just takes time to really to take them down to where they need to be.

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Like, I understand, like if I look at, you know, non gold backed fiat currency, moving decimals at a

17:57

Federal Reserve usury interest rates was a fractional banking.

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You go, well, that's evil. I don't see any godly principles in that. Then when I see like a

18:09

Bitcoin that's like limited supply, you know, fair for all, there really can't be theft or cheating. And you go, well, that seems like it has godly characteristics and principles.

18:18

It's nice to see that you guys took those and boil it down to, you know, actually kind of comparing that and going, yeah, there are some characteristics of Bitcoin and crypto that are actually found in the gospel.

18:30

Can you guys give me like a sneak peek and give us a sneak peek, like an example or two, like what might be in there that you can make a comparison to?

18:36

Yeah, I'll say one more thing, too. So about Dan, I ran, I ran across Dan's YouTube channel.

18:43

He's I think it's Hodling Jesus is actually the name of the channel. I got three videos from. Yeah, he's got three videos, again, from like the last three years.

18:50

So, again, there's not like there's three really good videos, but they are. And so what really hit me is that, again,

18:56

I again, both of us are have been missionaries and think, think and have have missionary hearts.

19:01

And so when I saw these videos, I was like, oh, man, this guy is thinking about this just like me.

19:08

And and so basically this book has been, again, we're nowhere near as verbose as C .S. Lewis.

19:13

But basically the goal is kind of like if C .S. Lewis wrote a book about Bitcoin, like what would it look like and what would it what would it try to do?

19:21

And so that's kind of what this book does. I would say, again, that not trying to, you know, exalt ourselves, but like, again, that's kind of the that was the goal.

19:27

That's kind of the attempt. And so I don't know, I'll let Dan give his his own, but the one that I always the one that I always mention when

19:35

I talk to people about this, that's kind of like the easiest to grasp. They're not always they're all these the meditations aren't specific to Bitcoin, but there's there's elements of it where some of them are specific.

19:45

There's other ones that are just more general. They're about money more broadly and about scarce money and different ways that that works and the consequences that it has in society.

19:54

So but the one that I always mention to people is that I'll never forget. I had this, you know, basically a couple of years ago,

20:01

I was trying to send a Bitcoin transaction. And every time you send a transaction, you have to include a little bit more than the amount of money that you initially you actually want to send.

20:10

You have to include a little bit more to incentivize that transaction to be included in the the next batch of transactions that happens every every 10 minutes.

20:20

And so I sent this transaction at a time when basically Bitcoin's price was going up a lot.

20:26

And so there weren't a lot of transactions because when Bitcoin is pumping, people don't want to sell it. So I sent this transaction, included a very small fee, the smallest possible, a few pennies.

20:36

And a couple of weeks later, I happened to check on the transaction and it hadn't gone through. And so I thought, oh, no,

20:43

I broke Bitcoin and I thought, oh, no, my transactions lost. And so I reached out to I have the ridiculous privilege to have literally one of the probably top 20 experts in the world about Bitcoin who happened to author our co -author to thank out for Bitcoin with us.

20:58

So I just reached out to Jimmy and I said, Jimmy, I sent this transaction. It didn't go through. What do

21:04

I do? What did I do wrong? And he goes, oh, no worries. He's like, you just need to send what's called a child pays for parent transaction.

21:11

And I said to myself or I said to him, I was like, oh, great, what's a child pays for parent transaction? And he said, so basically what you do is you have to send another transaction basically from the same address to the same address, the same address you were sending to.

21:26

And if you add, you just add more, you know, add another, you know, just send the same. It doesn't have to be the same amount or anything, but you have to include the same like more of a fee.

21:36

And when you do that, that transaction will incentivize the miners to include it.

21:42

And basically it will knock through the first transaction. And so as I did that, it ended up working.

21:48

I was grateful that I hadn't broken Bitcoin. And as soon as I saw that it worked, it just hit me.

21:55

I was like, this is the same like a child pays for parent transaction follows the same logic as the gospel, because like we are like with, you know,

22:04

God creates people. He has he has a mission for us to complete. He has a goal.

22:10

And by sinning, we fall short of the glory of God. We're not able to get to the end place where God wants us to get to.

22:16

So what is God's solution? He sends a second transaction. He sends another man.

22:22

He sends another man to complete and follow through and arrive where we fell short.

22:28

And by his doing that, it enables us to make it through as well, make it to the end goal that he has.

22:35

And so, again, when that hit me, I was just like, what are the odds that that is something that that's true, that this weird facet of this magical internet money,

22:47

Bitcoin, that this would also be true of this very, you know, just spiritual principle that we could write theological books.

22:55

Books have been written about this. What are the odds that you'd have this same kind of thing that would be that would work in within this?

23:01

And so, yeah, so we just started looking at Bitcoin. And the more that we were looking at Bitcoin, either in particular or just things about money more generally, we just saw just came to the realization there's a reason why

23:12

Jesus spent so much time talking about money, both because it's revelatory because of what it does in the world, the effects that it has.

23:19

And so we just have a bunch of a bunch of, you know, meditations about these ideas. Again, this is not to try to say, you know,

23:26

Bitcoin is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's not meant to do that at all. It's just meant to help people think about Bitcoin and money through a lens that maybe they're not familiar thinking about it if they're only seeing about Bitcoin on like CNBC or Fox Business or something like that.

23:41

Yeah, no, that's really good. It's fun to think about, too, that there was a transaction that failed and a greater transaction that that helped the completion of the transaction.

23:51

Yeah, a lot of a lot of analogies there. So did you guys both contribute to the book then? Yeah. Yes.

23:58

Yeah. We again, you're talking about the process of writing it, writing a book, Greg, and you're like, I don't think

24:03

I could ever do because of how much time it takes. We actually anticipated having this book done about a year and a half ago and it just took us a lot longer to get everything done and then just to do all the things that are related to it.

24:16

Well, hey, let me can I can we go behind the curtain, see how the sausage is made. So you guys are in two different countries, correct?

24:23

Yep. Yep. Yeah. So how does that go when you're writing a book? Because there's a lot of listeners here. I know, too, that'll probably one day either want to write a book or collab on something or they might be in media themselves and podcasting when you're in two different countries and you're collabing on a book.

24:36

How does that work? Are you guys going, hey, I'm taking this section? I'll take this. Then we'll exchange notes and then we'll figure it.

24:42

I mean, is there a lot of Zoom calls involved? A lot of text? What's going on with that, Dan? When Jordan comes to you and says, hey, we you know, or maybe it didn't happen that way.

24:51

Maybe you came you came to him. But either way we go, we got an idea for a book. We got to get started on it. Yeah, there's definitely been highs and lows in communication over the last couple of years.

25:00

But yeah, the initial call that we had, we actually had two other guys, I think, on that call wasn't like Pastor Coyne and another dude on that call, too.

25:07

And and we decide, OK, this is going to be actually just Jordan and I this book because they had other stuff that they were working on.

25:14

Yeah, well, we just we just combined all of our efforts. And I opened up, you know, Google Docs and we started throwing down throwing down some ideas and and got the chapters kind of sorted.

25:25

We actually both contributed a number of chapters. And then we brought it to our buddy who's a Christian Bitcoiner, shout out to Oshawa.

25:32

And he looked at it and said, dude, you guys are writing two different books, which is kind of one of the worst things you can hear when you're like, we thought we were going to be publishing within the next month or two.

25:44

And then he read it and was like, actually, I think this is like two different books. So so then then out came the machete.

25:50

And we're just like, OK, we got to hack this thing down. And for that second book, you guys do together. Hold on. That's right.

25:56

Yeah. Yeah. We basically ended up having one was more of like, yeah, meditation for almost like devotional stuff for Bitcoiners.

26:02

Another one was more of like a philosophy of money and Christianity. They're kind of distinct.

26:08

Anyways, we yeah, a lot of a lot of late nights writing. Yeah.

26:13

Jordan has been really helpful. Jordan's taken I've done the majority of the writing and a lot of the editing.

26:19

Jordan's taken more of the marketing and really using the leverage to thank God for Bitcoin has to help accelerate this.

26:26

And so I feel like we've kind of come to a point now where we're a really good team and we're yeah, we're excited to see how far it can go.

26:34

Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, that's awesome. I would just think it would be, you know, it's difficult enough if you sit down and try to accomplish something yourself.

26:43

But obviously, when you have partners, especially when there's distance in between you, you know, I just feel like there'd be a lot of challenges.

26:49

There are a lot of late night texts or, you know, corrections or, you know, ideas because that's how it is for me.

26:55

I don't know how it is for you when you guys write, but it's like if I don't write that idea, I mean, I have a notepad next to my bed and I'll wake up at two o 'clock and think of something and go,

27:01

I better write that down or it's lost or gone forever. I couldn't imagine the challenge of like, Dan, you said you're doing a lot of the writing and having to bounce it off people, stuff like that.

27:10

But I like the I like the second book that you had to cut. That should be the next book, The Philosophy of Bitcoin.

27:16

See, that's the one that's the one I would look to and go, OK, I like that one because I love searching the scriptures and you see how parallels in the parables that Jesus talked about money like you were saying,

27:23

Jordan, you know, I can make so many parallels to sound money in what Christ preached about, you know? Yeah.

27:29

Yeah. And that I mean, that's kind of that's kind of the goal. So I already have a tentative title. It's basically like, let's see, the economics of glory.

27:39

Let's see. Yeah, basically economics of glory. And then there's a subtitle. I can't remember what the subtitle is offhand. But yeah, that's basically the goal is like looking at money through a different perspective.

27:48

Again, there's like thinking about what money is and what it does through the lens of just things that the scriptures talk about is this incredibly fruitful place.

27:57

It's been it's been one of the most fruitful exercises that I've, you know, participated in the last, you know, really five years.

28:03

I've been kind of working on this thing. So, you know, I don't know, on the spine of a book, if people are looking at it, I think Jesus was a

28:08

Bitcoin, bro. It's pretty catchy from a marketing aspect. I get people to at least pick up the book, you know, I think. Thank God for Bitcoin already kind of communicates that sentiment.

28:16

And yeah, we were all provocative titles, though. Yeah, I like it.

28:21

So let's shift gears here for a minute. So well, really quickly, though, before we do that, I'm getting ahead of myself.

28:27

When is the book being released? Yeah, so it's available for preorder right now on our website.

28:32

If you go to TGFB .com and go to our store tab, you can you can preorder it there.

28:38

And then it should be releasing on Amazon. We're going to actually hit publish later this afternoon. We've been waiting for you to update a couple of things.

28:46

And so once we once we get those things updated, then it'll be OK. By the time this comes out, link will be down there. You guys can preorder and buy by then.

28:52

OK, and we'll make sure it's linked up. So if you guys are listening right now, don't worry. Just go click below in the description whether you're watching or listening.

28:58

So so what is going on with crypto right now? I'm seeing a resurgence, like I said, at the top of the show right after Trump's reelection.

29:07

I just saw the confidence soar. We saw that in the price of Bitcoin. I got guys coming out, my brother, who's never really.

29:13

Hey, what's going on with crypto? Weren't you into that a while ago? And I'm going, man, all these people are starting to go.

29:19

OK, I remember when those times were really rocking in 16, 17, 18 into 19.

29:25

There were, you know, when you have from the top up the president down, I guess you could say, and they're kind of open to that.

29:31

That gives people confidence in that. What do you what do you guys see in as guys in the market that understand that?

29:37

So what are you seeing right now with Trump coming in next month? Do you think you think it's going to be prosperous for crypto guys?

29:44

Well, I mean, the big story here is if you zoom out, you see a fixed supply asset, nothing nothing like it exists anywhere in the world, right?

29:53

It's continually getting scarcer and scarcer. The halving just happened was in April. We're down to like what?

29:58

3 .125 Bitcoin being produced every 10 minutes or so every block. And so this thing is getting scarcer and scarcer.

30:04

And you've got governments that are really out of control with with unsustainable debt loads that just have to continue to print more and more money.

30:11

And so the natural effect of that is that the price is just going to continually go going up.

30:17

It's going to go up forever, Laura, right? As Michael Saylor would say. And so I think what's happened with the Trump bump is basically we can zoom in and say like,

30:26

OK, yeah, this this brought it from, you know, in the in the high 60s upwards of 100.

30:33

But like, that's the grand scheme. The Trump bump in particular is just you have you have someone in charge now who is going to be opening the doors and not going to be clamping down on this.

30:44

There's all kinds of stories that were coming out about this. What they call it, Chokepoint 2 .0. Operation Chokepoint 2 .0.

30:51

And where they were just very unfavorable towards Bitcoin and crypto and any businesses of that nature.

30:58

And so basically, we have an open market on the horizon, and that's just going to let Bitcoin do its thing.

31:04

And I think we're seeing the price pump relative with that. But maybe, Jordan, you have another take. Yeah, I mean,

31:10

I think, yeah, you have. I mean, number one, the first thing, the reason why Bitcoin is succeeding and like going up in value a lot has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

31:19

Like, there's a fundamental problem that exists whether or not you see Bitcoin as the solution.

31:24

And it's the fact that governments can steal from their constituents by printing more money to fund whatever they want to, whether that's trans surgeries, whether that's

31:32

African abortions, whatever it is. They can fund whatever they want to because just the money is as simple as creating, you know, pieces of paper with different color numbers on it.

31:40

Drones over New Jersey? Correct. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. They can fund all that stuff. And so that's a problem that you have to figure out a way to deal with one way or the other.

31:50

And so some people deal with that, the money being broken, money not serving the purpose that it served throughout human history by they store their wealth in real estate.

31:59

Some people store their wealth in stocks. Some people store their, everyone is looking for scarce resources.

32:05

And so that's, you know, in all of those cases, they're looking for something that's more scarce than the money itself.

32:11

People recognize that if you store your money in cash, it's going to lose value relative to other scarce things that you want to do with that money.

32:18

And so they're looking for a safe haven of a scarce asset. And Bitcoin is one of these scarce assets.

32:25

And so basically, you know, Bitcoin is being, its price is increasing in value in part due to the printing.

32:31

Again, there's a scarce number of Bitcoin. There's an effectively infinite number of fiat currency units, whether that's in the

32:37

United States or every other currency around the world. And so that's part of what you're seeing. But another thing that's happening simultaneously is

32:45

Bitcoin's adoption curve. So right now, only about 1 % of anyone on earth owns any Bitcoin still.

32:51

And they're basically anyone who has internet is able to buy Bitcoin. So that's about 5 billion people, a little bit over 5 billion.

32:57

And so you have this two things happening simultaneously. Number one, you have tons of money being printed. And simultaneously, you have tons of more people who every day that go by, there's more and more people who are understanding what

33:08

Bitcoin is, understanding the value proposition of it, the fact that it allows them to send money across the world in seconds for pennies.

33:15

Like that's a tremendous value proposition for lots of people. Allows you in the case of the

33:22

Canadian trucker protest, I had the privilege to interview BJ Dichter, who's the spokesperson for the protest.

33:31

And he just basically said, you know, we were declared enemies of the state. We were debanked. We weren't able to access any of our fiat bank accounts.

33:40

And he said the only money that we were able to access for a certain period of time was the $900 ,000 worth of Bitcoin that was donated to us and distributed because it was custodied properly.

33:52

And so basically, this is one of the things like there's a number of different value propositions to Bitcoin beyond just I can get rich with this.

34:00

That's not why it was created. That obviously is one effect that it's had for a lot of people, especially if they hold it for a long period of time.

34:07

But that is not why Bitcoin is created. That's not the primary function of it is to be this speculative investment vehicle.

34:14

It's designed to be a money that a government can't create more units of, thereby stealing from their citizens.

34:19

So part of it is just you have everyone on earth has the same problem. Governments are stealing from them. And so they're waking up to, you know, in understanding this somewhat technical solution that takes time to understand and learn how to use.

34:32

And so, again, as more people wake up to that, then more people are adopting Bitcoin with at least a small percentage of their net worths.

34:39

And in some cases, much more than small percentage. So that's a big part of it. And then obviously,

34:45

Trump coming over the top. If you have the leader of the mostly free world coming on and saying, we're potentially going to buy as a country 1 million coins.

34:55

So 5 % of the entire supply over the next five years. I mean, obviously, anyone else who's holding those things is they're going to want to front run the

35:05

United States government. So the crazy situation that we have right now is everyone on earth, Trump has stated that's something he intends on doing, it appears.

35:13

And so everyone on earth right now, from individuals to companies to other nations, have the ability to front run the

35:20

United States right now by buying Bitcoin right now. And so basically, there's lots of people who are buying in anticipation of the

35:27

United States. And in the news in the last few days, we've seen Russia put forward a similar proposition.

35:33

Brazil put forward a similar proposition a couple weeks ago. So you basically have a lot of people who are trying to front run in anticipation of the

35:42

United States and many other countries beginning to hold Bitcoin strategic reserves, they're called.

35:48

So in the same way that you have strategic petroleum reserves, strategic gold reserves, strategic food reserves, people are saying, well, we need to have some of this

35:56

Bitcoin. You know, if this ends up continuing to do what it's doing, we need to have some of it. And so that's part of what's going on and contributing to the massive increase in the price in the last couple of months.

36:07

Yeah, it's really crazy to me, the kind of the shift in ideology, because, you know, you basically have two different schools of thought there.

36:15

A lot of governments despise Bitcoin because it can't be stolen.

36:20

It is secure. It is scarce. They can't control it, right? And then you have some that are going, well, no, this is the future.

36:27

The people believe in it. They're using it. I think what also is happening is we're well past the testing phase.

36:35

We're 10, 12, 14 years into this experiment. It's not going away. People are using it all the time in hundreds of millions of transactions.

36:44

And it has some of the things that fiat money doesn't have, like we said, like security and scarcity, right? I can't hit a button at the

36:50

Federal Reserve and take away 10 % of your value. I can't, you know, long gone are the days that I can take a dollar and turn it in for a silver note, right?

36:58

Or silver in general. It's backed by nothing. I remember my early 20s being very confused as a college student and going, if we're not on a gold standard and this isn't worth anything and everything's in a big computer at the

37:11

Federal Reserve, isn't this all monopoly money? Aren't we just all like in our heads agreeing to this?

37:16

You know, and then of course, years later, memes come out about it and the internet explodes. You go, oh, I was asking, I didn't know what I was asking, but I was asking a legitimate question as a 21 year old.

37:25

Like, yeah, it doesn't make sense if it's not truly backed by anything and numbers can just be moved around.

37:31

That's what intrigues me about crypto is it has the staying power of the people. If the people believe in it as a currency and it's secure and scarce and it stays that way, well, then the value is there.

37:42

And then it's also like going back to your book, those are the things that are biblical characteristics of God in biblical tendencies, right?

37:50

When you look at Christ talking about any type of money, he's talking about sound money.

37:56

He's talking about usury. He's talking about investing money and using it wisely.

38:01

He's talking about not loving it, but making it work for you. He's talking about abolishing minimum wages.

38:08

I would even say, when you're talking about the parable of the workers and seriously,

38:14

I mean, yeah, you got an employer, an employee, they make a deal and he goes, what's it to you? What deal I made with this person?

38:19

They were happy when they, you know, so there's all these like free market capitalistic principles within, and I'm not trying to make

38:25

Jesus a capitalist. Maybe I'll write a book that says Jesus was a capitalist, but there's free markets that work there to where what's crazy to me about crypto is it's really like a grassroots thing too.

38:36

It's like the people support it. They're going to use the tools that they're going to use that are safe, that are convenient, that bring value to them in their life, right?

38:46

And I don't think it can be stopped. We're not even talking about that. I mean, I remember in 2014, oh, experts, money experts, this is going away, this won't stay around, right?

38:55

And then the early adopters such as you guys that went, looked at it, went, no, this is the real deal.

39:01

This is exactly what we need. And now, like I said, we're over decade in and now we're writing books on how crypto relate to the gospel and beyond.

39:10

So it's just very amazing to me because honestly, as a believer, you know, we should be very wise with, and Stuart, well, our wealth,

39:21

I think every believer should look into crypto. If not using it for money transfers and things like that, at least as an investment strategist, at least look into it, you know, because it works.

39:33

It's here. It's not going away. I don't see it. Yeah, I think one of the things that I would say is, again, some of the same temptations that exist within the fiat currency system, which, again, our big critique of this is basically

39:49

God made a world that's scarce. God made a world of scarce resources where you have to choose this or this, okay?

39:55

You either have to do this with your time or this with your time. What you reap, you will sow. And from the beginning, mankind has always been trying to escape that forced binary.

40:05

We want to be able to do this and this. We want to be able to reap where we haven't sown.

40:11

And so this is part of the thing. So whereas, you know, we look at the government with the dollar and, you know, the

40:17

Euro and all these things, we look at the governments themselves and saying, look, you guys are guilty of wanting to be the gods of this system where you can create value out of thin air at the expense of everybody else.

40:28

This is what's wrong with fiat currency. They want to have no governing authority over them other than themselves, and then their people suffer as a result.

40:39

Now, again, this is also true, unfortunately, of much of the crypto world. Much of the crypto world operates.

40:45

There's no actual independent process that's governing the creation of new currency units.

40:52

And so this is why, again, this book specifically focuses on Bitcoin. We only recommend Bitcoin.

40:57

We only buy and sell Bitcoin. And it's because Bitcoin is actually - We don't sell Bitcoin. We don't sell

41:03

Bitcoin, Jordan. Yes, we do not sell Bitcoin. Never sell Bitcoin. No. But this is something where, you know, we recommend

41:10

Bitcoin because there are particular processes and realities that govern it that many of these other coins do not have.

41:19

And so one of the - So basically what this fundamentally means is that the fundamental problem that many cryptocurrency creators had with the

41:27

Federal Reserve System and had with fiat currency was not that it existed.

41:33

It's that they don't get to be the ones on the Federal Reserve. Right. They don't get to be the ones in charge. Yeah. Correct.

41:38

So basically all these other cryptocurrencies that are effectively created out of thin air that don't have a mining process or something like this where it actually requires the sacrifice of real -world resources in the form of, you know, like whether it's energy itself.

41:52

All of these - With Bitcoin, everything is tied to energy. There's no way to get Bitcoin apart from expending energy in the form of whether it's oil or natural gas or whatever or buying it with real scarce money from people who've already done that process.

42:05

Right. That's different from, you know, Ethereum and some of these other bunch - basically every other cryptocurrency where there's a small group of people who controls the issuance.

42:14

They can make more or less currency units. And they basically can do this and sell a bunch of them, create them out of thin air and just pump them onto the market to basically make themselves a ton of money.

42:26

So again, this same temptation tempts everybody. And so we kind of, you know, really want to help people understand the differences between, you know, among other things, the difference between Bitcoin and crypto more broadly.

42:38

Many people use them as synonyms, but there really are meaningful differences between them.

42:44

I'm glad you said that because I have used them as synonyms before. And you're absolutely right. There are huge differences between Bitcoin and pretty much everything else.

42:50

When I was talking like Trump's first term, too, and you had everything. Doge is this and that.

42:56

And it's like none of it was, you know, it was all unlimited supply. And you're going, well, this can't.

43:01

And look, I made a couple of bucks off of Doge just one night. 100%. 100%. Didn't need to do it.

43:07

Woke up the next morning and went, I'll cash that out. It was like $5 ,000 or something. It was so stupid. It was just providence of God.

43:13

I'm not an investor. 100%. Not giving advice, right? But I just looked at it and went, this is the stupidest thing ever because it's just like fiat money.

43:18

And Bitcoin is different in that way. But when I have Bitcoin people on, I got to ask you,

43:23

Dan, I'll start with you and then Jordan, because the whole creation of Bitcoin just still blows my mind. No one still is taking credit for it.

43:30

It's still a mystery. It's a huge disruptor. It's probably the biggest disruptor worldwide in the last 15 years.

43:37

Yet we don't know who created it, where it really came from, why no one is taking credit if the creator is still alive.

43:44

In the day of where everyone takes credit for everything and will pour out their soul on a live stream for seven views, we've got the largest disruptor in the last 15 years, and it's still a mystery, which then of course conspiracy theories creep in and stuff.

43:56

But what are your guys' thoughts on that? You guys are in this all the time. I'm not saying you're an expert on the foundation of it, but Dan, where did it come from?

44:04

Why don't we know where this guy is or whoever made it or what's up with that? Yeah, who is Satoshi, right?

44:10

The saying is we are all Satoshi. And so you're Satoshi, Jordan's Satoshi, I'm Satoshi.

44:17

Because we run this thing, right? Bitcoin is ours. It was given to us as a gift.

44:23

Someone started it. Yeah, and no one really knows. And that's just the beauty of the mystery. Like, I know,

44:28

I've just sat in my backyard, staring up at the stars, pondering Bitcoin, of all things, just thinking, how on earth does the world even...

44:35

Like, how does Bitcoin even exist in the world? This is mind -boggling that this new disruptor has come in to change the system.

44:43

And I believe that's what it was designed for. We know the purpose of why it exists. And I believe that's actually one of the chapters or meditations in the book is called

44:52

Bitcoin's Purpose. And it dives into the dangers and the brokenness of our fiat system.

44:59

It goes into that statement that was ingrained in the Genesis block.

45:05

Was it something... Chancellor on the brink of bankruptcy. Second bailout for the banks.

45:11

Second bailout for banks. Yeah. Just exposing just the brokenness of how all the mistakes that Wall Street makes, all the mistakes that the government makes, they're put upon the masses and society has to pay for it.

45:26

And you got, what, 10 million Americans that lost their home into and afterwards following the great financial crisis.

45:35

And so Bitcoin was given to us as an alternate system. And I would maybe say this too.

45:41

We have another chapter in there called you can't change the system from within the system, which is a popularized saying from a guy named

45:47

Jeff Booth, a fellow Canadian here. But as Canadians, we...

45:53

Or sorry, not as Canadians. As Bitcoiners, we believe that you can't change fiat from within fiat.

45:59

Like Donald Trump's not going to fix fiat. No new prime minister on our end is going to change fiat.

46:06

We're not going to fix our economic system. We need an outside external system to come in and change it from the outside.

46:13

We need that external force to change the system so that we can all be led into prosperity.

46:20

And I would just say the same thing's true in our own lives. You and I, as Christians, we know this. We can't fix ourselves.

46:25

We can't solve ourselves. We can't... The sin problem is too deep. The sin is way too deep. We need someone to come in and fix it for us.

46:32

And that's why we appeal to that external force of Jesus, our savior. And so, yeah, this book was written really for heart transformation.

46:42

It was written for the Bitcoiner in your life who maybe has a spiritual openness and would be open to hearing how

46:51

Christianity works through a Bitcoin lens. And so I'll leave it at that. And I would say,

46:56

I would add to that. That might sound insane. Like, you're like, what in the world? Like, I don't even know.

47:02

First of all, like, I don't know any Bitcoiners. And so why would that be a thing that happens? Like, why would they be interested in this book that's written, you know, from a

47:10

Christian perspective? And the crazy reality is that one of the amazing things that we have found in the last five years of being in Bitcoin is that one of the consequences of getting into Bitcoin is that, first of all, you become more conservative.

47:23

And then eventually, as part of that, in many cases, I have, like, numerous stories I can tell you about people who were hardcore atheists who, as they became more conservative, they started thinking about Christianity in a new light and have become

47:37

Christians. Like, basically, it's one of these things where, I mean, one of the things that was like a big eye -opening thing for me and started this whole journey was just this question of what is money.

47:47

I was a philosophy major in college. And so trying to understand what things are and how do

47:52

I know? How do we know what they are? It's one thing for someone to say, this is my opinion about what money is, but really trying to have like a, you know, a, like, just a well -grounded understanding of, well, how do

48:02

I know? Like, what's my basis for knowing this? When you go through this process, this process of, like, trying to figure out what money is, it's this, it just messes with your head, and it forces you to reconsider basically everything you thought you knew about money because you look into, like, the history of the last hundred years.

48:19

We're like, well, this is just what it is. The government creates money. When you look at the rest of human history, you're like, well, this is pretty much a drop in the bucket.

48:26

Like, there's been a few periods where this is not totally new or anything like that, but this is not the norm.

48:31

Like, having a currency that's not backed by anything scarce is not normal. And it's had, it's failed in the past.

48:37

It's had catastrophic consequences. And so I think that this, you know, that question, once, you know, once you realize, oh man,

48:45

I assume so much that I can't give grounding for, I can't give like an account for in terms of what

48:52

I believed about money, and you start to see all the consequences that that has in society.

48:58

Like, money touches everything. And so the creation of it, if you mess with, you know, where it comes from, how it operates, you inadvertently touch all kinds of other things as a result.

49:07

When you start to see that's true of money, and you start to see, man, I had no clue about this. I was so dead wrong.

49:14

And it touches, it's something that's so impactful on my life. What else is there that maybe

49:19

I laughed off or didn't think was important at all that might, you know, might be true as well, that might radically shift how

49:26

I see my life and see the world as well. And so that's, we've kind of seen this process work itself out with a bunch of people.

49:34

And so this is, you know, part of the reason why I wrote this book was to, you know, to be a tool that would help people think about, you know, some of these things that we've seen other people come to realizations about.

49:45

Again, I think one of the other things we talk about is, you know, we build on one of the chapters, we talk about something

49:52

Stephen Meyer talks about, Dr. Stephen Meyer, about how basically he's like, we, you know,

49:57

Darwin could be forgiven. Charles Darwin could be forgiven for thinking that we just evolved through time and chance over time.

50:03

Darwin knew nothing about DNA. But as soon as we realized that within every single living cell that's ever existed is programmable code, okay?

50:13

Like that, once we got to that point, we realized that there's no more room. Like to believe that this was all just a blind chance.

50:21

And so Bitcoin is also this programmatic code that even though we don't know who this person was, we know that someone did it.

50:29

We know that somebody actually used their intelligence to program logically in order to affect certain outcomes.

50:38

And so, you know, given that we know that's the case, and it would be foolish for someone to say, well, no, Bitcoin just descended from on high.

50:45

It just happened. It just came into being through blind chance. Like that would be ridiculous.

50:51

And so, again, we're just trying to leverage basic truths that, you know, people already believe in and then kind of apply them in a way that maybe they're not accustomed to.

51:01

So, again, it was written for Bitcoiners. At the same time, if you're a Christian, like you're going to benefit from this book.

51:07

Like we, it's going to help you. Really, it's going to help you think about Bitcoin in a different way as well. So we highly recommend, and it's really for anybody.

51:15

Yeah, guys. So good. So it's called the Gospel of Bitcoin, correct? And it will be according to Bitcoin. The Gospel according to Bitcoin.

51:22

We'll have it linked below. You guys can click on it. It might be in pre -order status, might be an order status by then, but either way, you'll be able to order and get it.

51:33

Yeah, I think what you guys are doing is so important because there are so many biblical principles with money. Look at when you have just money and sound money, right?

51:41

That is a good thing because all money is really is labor and time put into a pocket size, something you could hold in your hand.

51:50

And we need more people, both young and old. You wouldn't even believe how many older guys

51:55

I come across who haven't understood the basic economic concept of when you say the word money, what you're saying is my time and my labor.

52:03

And when people talk about, oh, we're going to take this tax or this money or this money, I'm going to do that with this money.

52:08

What they're saying is I'm going to steal this labor from you. I'm going to take away this time from you. And when you start to think of money as time and labor, oh my goodness, just like you said,

52:18

Jordan, you start to think about love my neighbor as myself. Would I want someone to take that from me? Would I want to, right?

52:24

But I want to cut this corner with that. And you start to view money as it truly is. It's really a representation of the most limited resource we have on earth, and that is our time.

52:34

And how do we spend our time in labor? And labor then converts to, right, into this money that we pass around.

52:40

So I can totally understand that point in the book as well, too. I fully agree with you that when you start looking into the history of money, how it's used, what it's supposed to be used for, you really start, you have to either

52:51

A, at the base level, come to a conservative worldview. But if you really get into it, you start to go, oh wow, when

52:57

I look at the principles, even Old Testament principles of God talking about money and interest rates and how it's used and how you replace things and how things are finite.

53:07

It's very, very biblical. You start to see godly principles in that. That's why I love that you guys have this campaign.

53:13

I was a big supporter. Thank God for Bitcoin. I'm so happy and excited to see this book coming out. And guys,

53:18

I would highly recommend you order it and make sure you read through it because I'm sure it's going to be good. And I'd like to see that other book that got kind of shuttered to the side.

53:27

Maybe that one's coming out next because a lot of Bitcoin and Christian theology is awesome.

53:34

Dan and Jordan, any last word before we get out of here? I don't think so.

53:39

Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, it's great to meet you today. Hey, no problem. First time for Dan.

53:45

Love having you on. How about you, Jordan? I'm actually a little wary to open it back up to you, Matt. We get another 15 minutes, but that's okay.

53:51

If you want to go there, I'm good for it. No, again, appreciate you guys. Again, appreciate your audience. You guys have, again, it was great to see you at the

53:57

Fight Life Peace Conference last month. And again, we'd love to, hopefully again, we get some of these other projects out.

54:02

And then again, the last thing I guess that we would pitch is basically later this year, we're going to do a one -day event in Las Vegas.

54:11

The big Bitcoin conference this year is going to be in May in Las Vegas. And so if you're interested in that, we're going to have tickets available for like a special dinner that we're going to be doing out there.

54:20

And then we're going to do our big, our customary two -day conference. It's either going to be the end of September or early

54:26

October. So you can check our website over the next few weeks or months to get more information about that.

54:31

Yeah. And Jordan, get me those links when we get off of here. And I'll make sure I link those up too. So everyone can click through. Guys, thanks so much for being here today.

54:39

Appreciate you, brother. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to another episode of Dead Man Walking Podcast. As always, you can find out more about us at dmwpodcast .com.

54:47

Support the merch, merch store. That's always fun. We've got the Wynham Dynam room and nine of mugs. I think they're back there somewhere.

54:53

Here we go. And we've got the, how about you shut up and let that be your wisdom? Job 13, five. Sometimes you just got to quote scripture to the pagans, even if they don't like it.

55:01

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55:06

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55:12

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55:19

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