October 26, 2015 Show with Thabiti Anyabwile on “Reviving the Black Church” AND Karim Shamsi-Basha on His Conversion From Islam to Christ in His Book “Paul and Me”

The Program Opens With Thabiti Anyabwile and Reviving the Black Church

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 26th day of October 2015, and I'm very excited to have an excellent guest from the old Iron Sharpen Days back on the program, and he's on the program for the first time as far as the new Iron Sharpens Iron is concerned, Thabiti Anyabwile.

He is a pastor with the Anacostia River Church in Washington, D .C., and he has served as senior pastor at First Baptist Church of Grand Cayman in the Cayman Islands. He blogs at the Front Porch and is a council member with the Gospel Coalition.

He's also a prolific writer and he has written such books as The Decline of African-American Theology from Biblical Faith to Cultural Captivity, and the book that we're primarily addressing today, his new book hot off the press, Reviving the Black Church, A Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, and for the very first time, welcome you to the all-new Iron Sharpens Iron, Thabiti Anyabwile.

Hey brother, it's such an honor to be on a new format, so thank you brother for having us.

Yes, and I often boast to people that one of my greatest accomplishments in life is that I'm one of the rare people who can actually correctly pronounce Thabiti Anyabwile.

But you see what happens when you learn to pronounce Thabiti Anyabwile, you can't say.

Accomplishment. That's right, and you'll hear much... You become some things, you lose some others, brother. Yeah, and you'll be hearing a lot more of those failures during this program, I'm sure. And it's also great to have back in the studio my co-host, Pastor Ron Jorlach of the First Baptist Church of Brooklyn, Maryland, and he has been a guest and a co-host on the all-new Iron Sharpens Iron on several occasions, and welcome back to the studio, Ron Jorlach.

Yes, Chris, it's good to see you again, and I just was wondering, have you ever had so many syllables in one show?

Well, I will bet you anything that I am the only person on the planet Earth that has ever had two people on my program named Thabiti Anyabwile and Ron Jorlach. And let me just let our listeners know something about this book we're going to be discussing through two men who have endorsed it.

First of all, many of you may recognize the name Mark Dever, who is probably most well-known for his Nine Marks Ministries. He says about this book, Reviving is God's work we know, but the appearance of a book like this suggests that he is at work doing it even as we ask.

Read this book and pray in hope. And that's Pastor Mark Dever, Senior Pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D .C., and also Tony Carter, Lead Pastor at East Point Church in East Point, Georgia, says, Reviving the Black Church is both timely and refreshing.

If you love the Black Church like I do, you will want to read this book and hope our beloved church's obituary has proved false. And as I said, that was Tony Carter. And it's great to have you back on the program, Thabiti, as I said.

And tell us, before we go into your book, tell us something about Anacostia River.

A Local Ministry Context in Washington, D.C. and Brooklyn, Maryland

Baptist Church. Thank you, brother. We launched on Easter Sunday from a section of the city.

Great. And also, Pastor Ron Jor, if you could tell us something about First Baptist Church.

In Brooklyn, Maryland. Sure. First Baptist is very similar to Anacostia River Church in that we are in a neighborhood that is cut off by a river. You've got the the Patapsco River in Baltimore that cuts off pretty much greater Baltimore from where we are.

We're still within city limits of Baltimore. But much like the Anacostia area in D .C., Brooklyn did not receive a lot of the economic benefits and so on from what's going on on the other side. We're literally about 10 minutes away from M &T Bank Stadium, Camden Yards, Inner Harbor and all of that.

But that 10 minute drive is basically a travel to two different worlds. And we're serving the Lord over in Brooklyn. You've got a lot of folks that feel a bit of disenfranchisement and so on. But it's a very ethnically diverse area, generationally diverse area.

And we're striving to be faithful to the gospel and faithful to our community as well. And I'd also like to inform our.

Listeners that both Thabiti Anyabwile and Ranjour Locke, they're both African-American pastors. And I say that because since the black church at large is going to experience some critique today, as well as some encouraging news, I thought it best to have at least one other African-American in here.

I didn't think it would be appropriate for three lily white guys to be critiquing the black church necessarily. Not that there would be anything innately wrong with that, but just for the fact that we want to avoid any appearance of racism or anything like that.

Is the Black Church Dying?

Well, first of all, the book that you originally wrote before the book that we are discussing today, Reviving the Black Church, A Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution, the book, a very controversial book that you wrote, The Decline of African-American Theology from Biblical Faith to Cultural Captivity.

How is that different from what we have in our hands.

Today, the Reviving the Black Church? Was that a controversial book? Well, you know what? It's funny, man. The first book I said together.

Well, before, and by the way, Pastor Ranjour Locke, you could chime in at any time with your own question. But before he does that, I'd like you to begin to answer a question which is asked on the back cover of your book.

Is the black church dying?

I think it depends on who you ask, and I think it depends on what you ought to do, at least one person. In my own take, what you're going to find, for me, is just in love.

So you would say that even a church that may be packed to standing room only with thousands of people, may have vibrant worship, may have talented musical performers in the music team, in the choir, and they may have the most prominent political figures candidating from their pulpits, that could still be a church that is dead as a doornail.

Yeah, we ought not to confuse that. So we want to understand that life of His Word will be quite effective. Amen. And perhaps I'll ask both you and Ranjour this question.

If you, in your daily walk as you, the Lord and His providence, as you in different places speaking or just in your neighborhoods and so on, going to the grocery store or wherever you may be walking or living and going about your business, if you meet a black pastor, is he more than likely to be someone who truly understands.

And preaches the gospel or not? You could go first, and then we'll have Ranjour chime in. Yeah, I shouldn't have said anything. I should have just let Ranjour go first.

Well, I'll go ahead and answer. I'll go ahead and answer. More than likely, in my neck of the woods, more than likely, if you are an African-American pastor, you are very much versed in terms of social commentary.

You may have a lot to say in terms of politics. You may have a lot to say in terms of poverty and so on. But by and large, and so let me just preface, I'm not talking, you know, sweeping the nation or anything like that.

I'm just talking about in my particular context, my neck of the woods. You're hard-pressed to find a guy who is thoroughly engaged, theologically, who handles his Bible well. And there are a lot of different reasons for that.

So in a lot of ways, I'm sympathetic to that brother. But at the same time, I would say probably not. I would go in expecting him to be lacking theologically.

And Thabiti?

Yeah, I think I'm similar. I think, and as Roger said earlier, but I think, in my neighborhood, I think I would find you could hear allusion.

And you said that you could lay out some reasons. You think that that lack of Gospel-centeredness exists.

Sure. What loom in the Gospel, and another reason for that.

This is probably going to get some people upset, but I think that it's important to have bring this up in a discussion like this. I believe that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. should be revered as a great American hero.

But unless he repented of some of his theological heresies, I read his doctoral dissertation some years ago, and he was denying the basic tenets of Christianity, like even the deity of and, you know, the virgin birth, the resurrection, and so on.

I don't know if you're aware of any change happening in his life, but I was wondering how common that is in your experience with African-American clergy. Is that a common thing for those who profess to be Christians, or even Baptist pastors?

Well, this is what I mean by having a South of his field. And how common is that extreme form of liberalism in regard to Christology and so on?

How common is that in the clergy in the black church today?

I think you find it more often.

One of your chapters is a call for a reform of black preaching, a case for biblical exposition, if you could expand on that.

Yeah, that if the Bible itself, if we believe that inspired words of God, that as exposed salvation of sinners die, if we want to see that life which comes through...

Biblical Exposition and Black Preaching

Pastor Rondra has a question for you.

Pastor Thabiti, as I was reading your book, one of the things that I thought particularly interesting, and perhaps even interesting to some of our listeners over here, who aren't a part of a black church, is that really you could just about take black off of the title and just say reviving the church.

There's so much overlap in terms of what's going on, what you kind of prescribe for black churches, really you could prescribe for any church. And so that kind of led me to kind of a twofold question.

Number one, if you could explain a little bit about those similarities in terms of reviving the black church and really any church in general, but then also if you could give some of the differences, like some of the things that are unique to black churches where there's particular need for revival in that content.

In fact, Thabiti, if you could pick up after our station break, it's going to be brief, and you could answer Rondra's questions when we come back. By the way, if those of you listening want to join us in the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Thabiti Anyabwile in a discussion of his book, Reviving the Black Church, a Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arntzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile, and we are discussing his latest book, Reviving the Black Church, a Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution.

In studio with me as co-host today is Pastor Ron Jorlock of the First Baptist Church of Brooklyn, Maryland. And prior to our station break, he asked two questions of Thabiti Anyabwile. And if you want to restate those in a.

Way that Thabiti can answer them now. Sure, sure. Again, ultimately it was twofold. One was, what are the similarities between reviving the black church and reviving any church of any type? And then the second part was, what are the things that are specific to black churches, specific particular needs for revival within the black church?

Yeah, that's a wonderful question, brother. I think one is the savior. You can almost drop, expect that, right? It's not culturally owned by one ethnic group. Well, that that's a fight economic, the actual issue.

So just a moment ago, you guys were asking that makes sort of ministry 1900s. But can you be a little bit more descriptive when you say like in your chapter reform black.

Preaching part two, a defensive exposition in a nonwhite context, if you could be a little bit.

More descriptive about what that is? Sure, as we'll think of exposition, I never frequently stand off to the side lurking for a while to everybody else's platitudes, and they want to have a conversation at the door.

And I said, what kind of preaching is that? I thought you were going to whip the people up, you know? And then I make this point, not white people, and they would not understand what is biblical.

Yes, but something that you said reminded me of my dear friend, who's now in heaven with the Lord, Dr. Robert J. Cameron, I don't know if you ever had the privilege of meeting him, the BT, but he was a black Presbyterian pastor in New Jersey started out as a reformed Episcopal and wound up first a PCA pastor and then finally an OPC pastor for a number of years before going home with the Lord.

But he said that a lot of black folks who would visit his congregation or visit his worship service would tell him before they left, I'm sorry, I'm not coming back here because you're not black enough.

Because he was not doing the typical thing that they were expecting, like whooping and, you know, getting the audience revved up in an emotional way. And he was basically an expositor. And they didn't care for that.

How much of that area of homiletics that does involve style and so on? How much of that do you think is completely appropriate to retain as a black preacher of the gospel, or even a white preacher of the gospel who enjoys or has a gift for preaching in that fashion that we have come to view as perhaps a stereotype?

But how much of that do you believe is acceptable to retain from the pulpit as long as the content of the message being preached is orthodox?

Yeah, I'm happy for all of it as much as whether or not there's something that is clear.

And I would assume that, coming from a Reformed Baptist background, that you think there is some kind of a danger with anybody, no matter what race they are, who is a pastor whose presentation of a gospel message, or so-called gospel message, borders on being entertainment.

Driven. Absolutely. Or theatrical. Well, I'm bound on every problematic. Yes, yes. Definitely. You don't give a lecture in the pulpit. There's got to be a prophetic point to preaching. Yes. And it doesn't have to be dressed in the same way.

Do it well means pointing at things. Therefore, more cost may be found faithfully. Yes, Rondre, you have another question?

The Role of Men and Biblical Leadership

Yeah, Pastor Thabiti, one of the things that I noticed also in your book is that you emphasize, you really kind of pointed the arrows at two particular people in reviving the Black Church. The first one you pointed to were the leaders of the Black Church, the pastors.

And the second one were the men. You have a very big emphasis, especially towards the middle, towards the end of the book, on strong biblical leadership, and on the place of men, and the role of men, both in the home and in the Church.

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?

Yeah, with regard to power, it's controversial. For some people, it's controversial, because, no, I need to make sure I'm not ranking foul. And so, therefore, it's on men that God calls to do what the Bible teaches.

You know, it's simply what the Bible teaches. And so, I think we've had our experience. We have a Christian in Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, who asks, I know that you were a convert from Islam. What was it about the Christian upbringing that you had that you needed to look elsewhere for religious fulfillment? Yeah. And was that orthodox Islam, or were you ever a part of the cult that claims a Muslim background, but in reality is not Muslim in any way, the nation of Islam?

I had been, but I was...

Yes, and I remember we had that interview a number of years ago on the old Iron Trip Bazaar, and I would love to have you back to address that whole experience again at some point in the near future. I'd be joyed.

I'd like you to, in the 10 minutes or so that we have left, really get involved in some practical ways that you envision the church to be actively involved in to help restore a biblical pattern.

For the black church at large. As a church with the message of the gospel, we just want church plan. And by the way, Christian in Carlisle,.

Pennsylvania, if you could email us back your email address, you're going to be receiving a free copy of Reviving the Black Church, A Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution by Thabiti Anyabwile. That's free of charge, compliments of B &H Publishers.

Do you think that it is at all racist or to be putting too much emphasis on race for churches, for instance, to have conferences where they specifically single out more capable, biblically orthodox black preachers in order to effectively reach the community?

Some Christians, I think, are like ostriches with their head in the sand, and they very piously say that any kind of a thing like that where you're intentionally picking people by race is racism, even if it's in a backhanded way.

But would you agree that there's nothing wrong with that strategy, and in fact, it might be even a good one?

I would, in part. All you're simply trying to do is draw a rational denomination until you get mothered up. In my experience, sometimes that's not true. We need each other.

I mentioned before a pastor who's now in heaven, Pastor Robert J. Cameron, who wrote a book, The Last Pew on the Left, which is titled that because that's where all blacks were forced to sit when they attended mass.

He was raised Roman Catholic in the South. He wrote a book addressing the racist issue, and he evenly applied it. He brought up the fact that that he had a saying that he was quite fond of repeating, that racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem.

And he accused both blacks and whites equally of being guilty of this sin. And because of that, a very major Christian publisher whose name you would very quickly, immediately actually recognize, told him in a rejection letter that it was the finest unsolicited manuscript that they had ever received, but they were uncomfortable publishing anything that criticized the black church.

But what is your opinion about that? Do you think that the black church is still harboring a sin of racism, just as much as whites may be doing? And are sometimes those of minority races catered to in regard to their racism because they have been victims of persecution more recently in our past and even in our present?

And I always go back to the New Testament, where even though the Jews had been persecuted in very severe ways by Gentiles and Romans and so on, they were still very harshly rebuked for racism against Gentiles.

But anyway, what is your comment on that, Thabiti?

Well, you put a lot in that question. You put a lot in that question. That's needed.

Yes.

If we're ever going to add the African-American, that's been...

Amen. And in your final words, do you care to emphasize your meaning behind the subtitle of your book, A Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution in regard to the black church?

Yeah, I think that's a manifest that you've got words...

Well, I know that you said you could only be on with us an hour, and I hope that in the future you can return for... Because I think that we have a lot more we could address with this book and in this subject, and I eagerly look forward to you returning to the program.

Well, that would be... I have been on for this...

And I know your website is anacostiariverchurch .org. That's A-N-A-C-O-S-T-I-A riverchurch .org. That's A-N-A-C-O-S-T-I-A riverchurch .org. Thank you so much, Thabiti Anyawile, and we hope you come back soon on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Thank you, brothers. I look forward to it.

Lord bless you.

Thank you. And we're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Ron Jorlach, our co-host, who is now our guest on Iron Sharpens Iron. Some of you were looking forward to hearing Kareem Somshe-Basha give his testimony regarding his conversion out of Islam.

Well, Kareem could not make it on the program today, so we have to reschedule his interview. But thankfully, in God's providence, I do have Pastor Ron Jorlach of First Baptist Church in Brooklyn in studio with me, and we're going to continue the discussion that we began with Thabiti Anyawile on reviving the Black Church, a call to reclaim a sacred institution.

Sponsor Reads and the Transition to Pastor Ron Jorlach

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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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Pastor Ron Jorlach on Southern Baptist Identity and His Conversion

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in for the last hour, we had been interviewing Thabiti Anyabwile, who has written a new book, Reviving the Black Church, A Call to Reclaim a Sacred Institution.

Thabiti could only be on with us one hour, but in studio with me is my co-host and now my second guest, Pastor Ron Jarlock of the First Baptist Church in Brooklyn, Maryland. And it's my honor and privilege to have you now as my guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Ron Jarlock.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. It's good to be here and good to be able to continue the conversation. Yes. And the First Baptist Church of Brooklyn, Maryland, another thing that kind of breaks stereotypes about it is that it is a Southern Baptist church.

And if you could tell us more about that. Yes, we've been Southern Baptist.

From the inception. We started in 1916. So it's an old church. Of course, I haven't been there. But the church has been around. Next year will be the centennial. And the church has had a long standing relationship with the Southern Baptist through thick and thin, through the less happy years, I guess you could say, during the time of theological decline and so on, even to now where there's been a lot more fruitfulness and faithfulness in the convention.

The church has weathered all those storms together.

And you happen to be a believer in the doctrines known as the doctrines of Sovereign Grace. They're known as reform theology, and they have also been nicknamed Calvinism, correct?

Yes, yes. And there's a long standing history, even within Southern Baptist, of a strand, not obviously the entire convention, but there has been a strand from the beginning that has adhered to the doctrines.

And I would definitely find myself in that stream.

And tell us something about your own abbreviated fashion. We did deal with this once before on our program, but your own Christian testimony of coming to Christ and then coming to the doctrines.

Of grace. Sure. I came to Christ, actually, my folks, mom and dad were believers. They came to Christ not too long after I was born. So I don't really have a time in my life where we weren't a church-going family.

I was only just, I don't even think I was a year old when my parents came to faith. So they wanted, from day one, from the moment that they came to faith, they were committed to raising their children to know Christ.

So we grew up, I grew up, myself, my sister and brother, we grew up going to church every Sunday. We grew up in Christian school. My parents just kind of went on a full court press to make sure that we were trained and we were understood, that we grew to understand the scriptures and to understand the gospel.

So I never really had a time where I was outside of the Christian culture, if you will. But I think if I were to be able to pinpoint when I personally came to faith in Christ, I would say it was probably around high school.

Even though I had made a profession of faith, it was one of those, and those who are familiar with Christian subculture probably cringe when they hear stories like this, but I remember the days in Sunday school as a young kid when there was someone who, the Sunday school teacher would say, okay, well, who wants to accept Jesus into their heart?

And of course, every child is going to raise their hands. Who wants to go to heaven? Everyone raises their hand. And so I made a profession of faith in Christ, but I really say it was in high school where the claims of Christ really were impressed upon me, when I was engaging with the scriptures and when I was seriously pondering and contemplating, meditating on who Jesus was and what Jesus did, that God really did that.

In terms of the doctrines of grace, that was a while later. I don't hear a lot of folks who, right around the time of their conversion, they came to faith. Usually, it's almost like a progression, and it definitely was a progression in my life.

My family, at least not to my knowledge, would consider themselves Calvinists, at least in the historical sense. But it was right around college. I had a professor who's a friend of yours and a friend to the show, Eric Redman.

And we had class, and he would begin just about every class with a reading from John Piper, one of the Piper devotionals or so on. I had no idea who Piper was. I had just started listening to John MacArthur, but I didn't know anything about Reformed theology to be able to pinpoint that about MacArthur.

So it was more a Piper thing for me. He would say things about God that I just never heard before. And that summer of 2000 was really the summer that changed things for me. As I was reading Piper, I decided I was going to read Pleasures of God that summer.

And as I was reading that, he has in there the pleasure of God and his elect, which were new categories for me. I had no idea what he was talking about. But as I was reading that and studying the scriptures, then that fall, I went through John 6.

And as I was meditating on John 6, again, I'm realizing no one comes to me unless the Father draws him, and so on. It was just a life changing thing for me when I started to realize that God is the one.

God is the initiator in salvation. He's the primary actor in salvation. And sure, we do have a responsibility. We are called to come to faith in Christ. We are called to repent and to trust in Christ.

But when we realize, as Paul says in Philippians 2, that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do his good pleasure. So the willing and the doing of God's good pleasure is the work of God in us.

All of those things were just coming like a freight train to me, and I couldn't argue. Theologically, I guess you could say I couldn't resist it. But God in his grace was just very clear to me, and.

I was sold. And the fact that you are a Southern Baptist pastor now, when did the Southern Baptist denomination become a part of your Christian experience? Yeah, that was actually after college.

I went to college in Maryland. I was raised in Maryland. When I was going to college, there was a group of folks at the school that were regularly attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church over in D .C. It was just a trip down the interstate for us.

So I would go down there, and I would listen to Dever and his hour-long sermons. And that was my entrance into Southern Baptist life. And that's interesting, because for most people, that's not what you think of when you think Southern Baptist.

But that was my entrance into that world. Afterwards, I learned more about the history of the Southern Baptist Convention. I was very much impressed by their resolve to get the gospel to the ends of the earth.

Their resolve to start Baptist churches all over the place, from downtown to the plains, and even to the far reaches of the earth. And all of that just really was impressive to me. Their resolve to evangelize and to get the gospel to as far as possible.

Sure enough, Southern Baptist, just like every family, has a few crazy uncles. So they're there, and they're fun. But at the same time, you definitely see a people who are united together around the spread of the gospel.

And whatever it takes to get the gospel to as many people as possible while we still have breath, that was just a very big thing for me. And I became a Southern Baptist pastor, and have been for the last almost four years.

And so you are a double minority in the Southern Baptist Convention, because not only are you black, but you're a Calvinist. And as we said, you hinted at before, there is a lot of Calvinism in the history and roots of the Southern Baptist Convention.