December 8, 2020 Show with Dr. Tim Clarey on “Dinosaurs: Marvels of God’s Design (the Science on the Biblical Account)”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

eighth day of December 2020.

Well, it's going to be very obvious to my listeners, if they listen regularly, that I love

dinosaurs.

If you listen regularly, you probably know that last week, I had Jay

Seeger on the program to discuss dinosaurs.

Well, today, I have one of his colleagues, Dr. Tim Clary, to

discuss dinosaurs some more, because I love dinosaurs.

I always have been fascinated by them, since I can even recall having thought

as a little child.

And that fascination and enthusiasm over dinosaurs has never waned

or vanished in my mind.

And Dr. Tim Clary, who received a Master of Science in Geology from the University

of Wyoming, a Master of Science in Hydrogeology from Western Michigan

University, and a PhD in Geology from Western Michigan University, who

worked as an Exploration Geologist at Chevron USA, Incorporated from 1984

to 1992, developing oil drill prospects and analyzing assets

and lease purchases, and was full professor of Geosciences Chair at Delta

College in Michigan for 17 years, before leaving in 2013 to join the

science staff at the Institute for Creation Research, also known as ICR.

Having earlier conducted research with ICR in its FAST program, F -A -S -T,

and has published many papers on various aspects of the Rocky Mountains, and has authored two

college laboratory books, and is the author of Dinosaurs, Models of God's Creation,

and contributor to the Guide to Dinosaurs and Creation Basics and Beyond.

And today we are going to be addressing the aforementioned book,

Dinosaurs, Models of God's Creation, The Science, on the Biblical account.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Dr. Tim Clary.

It's great to be back, Chris.

And let me right away give our listeners our email address, if they have questions of their own on dinosaurs.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of

residence, if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And tell us about ICR .org, or, as we said

before in its full title, Institute for Creation Research.

Well, ICR was founded by Henry Morris back in the 1970s, where

we really try to look at the science.

And we have kind of a

think tank

of a new boss, Dr. Randy Galuzzo, who's a medical doctor and

an engineer that he has.

Kind of making some...

All of us at ICR are conducting research, looking at, you know, confirming the biblical...

Well, you know, having had conversations with our brothers and sisters

in Christ, well, actually, so far I've only had these conversations with our brothers in Christ,

but those that happen to be old earth creationists, there seems to be

this idea that the Achilles heel of the young earth creationist movement

is the lack of experienced, accredited

geologists in our camp.

But you, obviously, are disproof, if I could say that.

You are exploding that myth because you are, indeed, a

geologist, and you've had many years of experience in that field, if you want to comment on that.

Well, yes, I think God is using me.

I mean, in spite of my fault,

He's using me to...

The rock records of the world really do show a global flood.

And a lot of that goes back to my training in oil and gas.

I even learned how

to deal with stratigraphy from the

same thing.

We talked about that on previous shows, three

continents.

But since then, we've finished another continent, we're almost done with another continent.

So I think in the next couple of years, it may take a couple of years, we're going to have another book out that's going to show the whole world.

But it really is, I can see God's hand and His plan.

Obey, He'll bring you back.

I had a second chance to really use all the training I've had.

And I think

it's...

Amen.

It makes...

To me, it makes the history of the planet Earth far more exciting and

fascinating, thinking of it as being not that very long ago.

When you speak about the creation of the universe itself, and

the flood, and all of that, it's quite a fascinating concept.

Now, this book, Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design,

the science on the biblical account.

There have been other books and documentaries and so forth,

DVDs, like we discussed with your colleague, Jay Siegert, last week, on the subject

of dinosaurs.

What compelled you to add to those volumes and

to those resources that already exist?

Just another book on dinosaurs, what was your compelling reason?

And what might you include in your beautiful hardcover book?

What would be the compelling factor that gave you a passion

to add this to our library shelves?

Well, I wanted to put a book together.

For many years, I actually, kind of like you, I've always had a passion.

So I went back, when I was teaching at the college level, I went back and kind of taught myself about

dinosaurs.

But you don't really get a chance.

I learned enough, I think, to teach an introductory course, and that's what

allowed me to look at both sides of many of these issues

that work at a

school from what I thought I had.

And to me, studying dinosaurs is really

seeing these creatures that God created.

And they're just not mentioned in the Bible, because of 41, well after, you

know, a couple centuries after the king.

So you never see the word dinosaur in the Bible, but I think the Bible does talk about other locations, particularly

in, I think I might

have, you wanted me to finish up with.

So the key reason, or reasons, plural, why you wanted to

add a new book on the subject when resources have already existed, even by young earth creationists.

Well, I think it needed an update, because there were so many new discoveries out there.

We also had to show there's really been no book

out there that kind of gives,

and then also talk about why they really went extinct after the extinction.

And I had a chance to look at the trade

impact site of the geography of South America and Central America

and Mexico.

And I was looking at that more carefully, and I realized there's really not much evidence for that.

It can be interpreted a completely different way.

So a lot of that I wanted to put into this book.

And then also at the end, I tied it into how they fit into the rock record.

Why dinosaurs are, and lions and tigers and bears, you know, people

always ask, why are dinosaurs not with humans?

Well, I believe they lived in separate sort of ecological zones.

That's what my research is showing, that there was a progression to the flood.

Years first,

and then higher plants, because

we find

them.

Well, in those areas, you know, you

see the devastation, you see the effects of the flood wiping these dinosaurs out at a certain level in the rock

record.

And this book kind of ties it all together.

So it's good science in it as well, and shows

how it fits in with the biblical account.

So really, there's nothing high level, not too low

level.

But I think it's a really good summary.

Going back to the big fancy book learning word that you used, paleontologist,

is a, well, first of all, that is specifically the study of fossils, right?

Yes, that's people are studying, you know, ancient life.

Now, would you consider that under the umbrella of geology, or is it a cousin to geology,

the field of paleontology?

It's kind of a cousin, I guess.

Most people in the States, anyway, you can't really get a paleogeology

degree.

Most people, many people, anyway.

If you could begin by revealing some of the latest discoveries that you have

become familiar with, that compelled you to write this book to begin with, on the subject of dinosaurs.

What is new in the field of dinosaur study that perhaps even a decade ago

was unknown?

Well, it's been the last till since about 2005.

One of the things that they've discovered,

there's a lot of evidence that

there's really a

lot of orbit.

To me,

there's

constantly the late 1990s, showing

that they didn't have these turbinates in their skull.

They looked at four or five different dinosaurs, and they showed that they didn't have nasal turbinates,

which,

and so

even though, you know,

50 years ago, dinosaurs in the 80s.

Now, is this something that paleontologists, even those that are

secular, universally agree with you on?

Oh, no, not at all.

There's a few that do.

It's why I wrote an article, Advocates for Cold

-Blooded Dinosaurs.

It's always humorous to me when, and I think it's very appropriate to use terms like heretics, even

in the secular arena, because as you well know, the

secularist scientists, even though they would never say this

or admit this, at least very, very, very few would, probably none would, but

they treat it, they treat their views, their views of Darwinian evolution, or whatever view they have that is

anti -biblical, they treat it as a religion.

And even though they've not proven many of these things scientifically,

they treat these things like religious dogma that you must believe, or you will be excommunicated, and

in that arena, that would mean public shaming, the loss of livelihoods very often, that kind of thing.

But I interrupted you there, so if you could continue.

No, no, that's fine.

And that's exactly what has happened to people like Alan Pradush.

And he wrote a book in 2013 called The Riddle of the Feathered Dragons.

And he goes against, if it's

consensus, it's not science.

And he kind of goes back, they become these high priests,

they disagree with them, they basically try to steamroll over them.

A small number of secular scientists that do,

and the book talks about that.

One of the reasons, you know, what I do, the core of the book is really,

three college

classes for one, but, you know, you guys decide, what do you

think?

Reading the dinosaur book, I cover the, I

don't even mention the other data.

So I try to cover a little bit of both, but I do conclude with, I do believe,.

Now, does that view somehow uniquely bolster or

support biblical creationism?

Or is it just an interesting fact that defies previously held presuppositions?

I mean, is there any reason other than it is not a part of the previously

held dogma that a secularist scientist would say, Oh, that can't be, Oh,

that's just ridiculous, et cetera, et cetera.

Why would they be opposed to that if there is some scientific evidence pointing in that direction?

Well, let's see, that's a really good point, because what secular scientists are trying to do, and this started in the 19th century, they're trying to

evolve dinosaurs and TV and a lot

of, went extinct, but they took the

first step to make,

they don't, you know, conditions to warm their body.

Now, there are some birds that can, they have control over the temperature based on the metabolism

that God gave them.

So they're completely different than dinosaurs.

And to try to say that dinosaurs evolved from the birds, the first step you got to do is make,

you know, when did dinosaurs become more in blood creation science?

They're verifying what they think they already know.

So I

think it's important

because

By the way, it might blow my listeners' minds, it might blow your minds too, but I actually saw

a guy with a top hat and a cape turn a handkerchief that he pulled out of his sleeve into a bird.

So that was pretty fascinating.

Oh, that is, yeah, it was.

Sleight of hand is a different thing, but that's pretty good.

But, you know, there's a lot of people that are out there in the creation community as well that are saying, I don't

think the evidence of AIG, one of our sister organizations,

completely differently, on their knees kind of,

a completely different body structure that was created by God as birds and dinosaurs.

Of

course, even

different warm -blooded dismissed.

Now, you're giving weight to the reason

that there was actually an agenda behind this, I'm assuming then.

I was puzzled recently when I was watching TV and a

commercial came on, and it had something to do with an event

that involved dinosaurs.

This was a secular event, and they showed an animation

of what looked like what somebody who is not an expert in these matters might

assume was either a Tyrannosaurus rex or an Allosaurus, it had that look to it.

But as it was running through the jungle chasing something to eat, it was covered with white

feathers.

And I was like, why on earth did they cover this dinosaur with feathers in this animation?

And you're actually revealing, at least partially, one of the reasons.

Right, and the secular community wants to, that's their agenda.

They want to make dinosaurs into birds.

There's very, very little evidence.

Like everything in geology or paleontology can see these animals

alive today.

But we do have hundreds and hundreds of skin imprints of dinosaurs, even the T

-Rexes a couple of years ago.

And I put the dinosaurs, the T -Rexes, the

secular community finally had to come out and admit the T -Rex did not have feathers.

But all the other, there's not

enough skin imprints.

There's skin imprints all over and none of them show feathers.

What they're seeing,

Mount Fiducia

actually came with a dolphin squished in some sediment and showed that

you get these collagen fibers coming off there.

So what, in the skin of these animals,

they're kind of in the flood, they got

kind

of

walk

like a dinosaur.

And so many of these animals that we're believing in being told they're feathered dinosaurs are in fact just,

unfortunately, Mount Fiducia, because it goes against mainstream secular science, he's ignored and shunned, just like a lot of

creationists are shunned as well.

But the scientific evidence is stacking up and I put it in my book, that dinosaurs were

in fact cold -blooded,

like I said, and the T -Rex, they're now saying, okay, T -Rex didn't have feathers.

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Thank you.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned into Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.

Our guest today for the full program is Dr. Tim Clary.

And we are discussing Tim's book, Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The

Science on the Biblical Account.

If you'd like to join us on the air, the question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail

.com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

We have a question from a very faithful and generous listener, Lou from

Sharpsburg, Georgia, who has become a very generous

financial supporter of this program on a regular basis, and we thank God for him.

Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia says, hello brothers, are dinosaur fossils found on

every continent?

And also, what are the odds that a dinosaur, or should I say a living

dinosaur, could be discovered today?

Thank you.

Okay, those are great questions.

Actually, dinosaurs are found on every continent, including Antarctica.

There's been quite a few of them found, you know, of course not in the ice,

but all over the earth, and catastrophic

plate tectonics, so I believe there was kind of

a lowland

areas on all these different...

And of course, Lou's question, his second question, reveals his ignorance.

He must not be watching television, because he asks, what are the odds that a living dinosaur could be discovered

today?

Does he not know that the vice president under Barack Obama is claiming to have won

the victory in the latest presidential election?

Well, that's true.

He is pretty old.

I've been accused of being a dinosaur, and I'm not that old.

But no, I don't really, you know, I think all the dinosaurs after the flood...

Couldn't it be especially a smaller size dinosaur?

Because, you know, very often people think of dinosaurs...

It could be somewhere like in the Congo somewhere, maybe, you know, somewhere where

there's very...

Did you say in someone's condo or the Congo?

No, the Congo, the Congo.

Well, it could be too.

You know, the fact that this world even tried to take a chicken egg and try to go back,

is they really aren't like...

I don't think you're going to find a dinosaur today.

If they did find one, it would be another living thing.

The rock record, of course, to see them above that, just like the seal that

can't fish, was the same way.

But obviously you can't rule it out, because there are even...

Right.

There are even areas on the planet from what I understand from missionaries that are

un -evangelized still in the 21st century.

Yeah.

I agree.

I mean, you can't...

I covered some of that in my book, but there are other books out there by Vance Nelson and others

that appear to be dinosaurs all over the world.

And I did a little of that in my book.

There's a lot of evidence, things back to

the one,.

You know,.

We didn't know what a stegosaurus looked like, really in the 20th century before...

You know, I'd be remiss if I didn't.

We've got to have a segment in here somewhere in the next hour on the issues or soft tissues as

recalled.

The evidence they're finding in these dinosaur bones, over a hundred of them have been published now, not just dinosaurs, but other animals

and worms and things that are really deep in the rock record.

They're supposed to be, you know, hundreds of millions of years old.

Well, I mean, you can go into detail on that now.

We did discuss that a bit last week when we had Jay Seegert on, but still not everybody

who heard Jay is listening today.

So, but let me first tell the good news to our listener

Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

You have won a free copy of this beautiful hardcover book with

photographs and illustrations, a really beautiful book,

Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Creation.

And just make sure we have your full mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

So that cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to us at

cvbbs .com.

Look for that in the return section on the package that you get in the mail

or the senders section.

And that will be the book, no doubt.

And we want to thank also ICR for providing us with these books.

And specifically our guest today, Tim Clary.

We thank you for his, we thank him for his generosity.

Okay, well, why don't you, before we go into any other listener questions, because we do have some, why don't you go

into some of this discussion on the soft tissue of dinosaurs that's been discovered?

Okay, again, that's another thing.

There's been a lot of discovery since 2005.

And if you go back in the literature, Brian Thomas, he's actually gone back and found that their

earlier discovery, most of this came

to, you know, the national attention in 2005,

looking material, and she found,

and since then they, their community,

they won't quite admit the red blood cells yet.

They keep seeing their red blood cell -like, but they found bone -making cells,

osteocytes are still there,

preserved in bones that have been laying there hundreds of years,

freezing and thawing in Montana and things like that.

And yet inside the bones, they're still finding original proteins, which can't last.

Anywhere near, even one million years.

Now, don't some of her colleagues dismiss this discovery?

Yeah, a lot of them,.

There's still like journalists, but I understand, there's even

a colleague

again, Dr. Brady,

Image College,

and he's working

on some

Now, has this discovery

caused any secular scientists to change their position on the age of dinosaurs?

Not to my knowledge, because what they do is, they'll say, yep, that's impossible, like Jack Horner said in the interview in 60 Minutes, yep,

that's impossible.

He even says the creationists, and we do, because they do show strong evidence

that the Earth is much younger than they say.

They refuse to change, I know they were, but they refuse to change their point of view.

They just think, well, there's just some miraculous way that these were preserved.

We just don't understand it.

But they know that these rocks are, you know, that they're found in are millions of years old, so

they're a process which we don't understand.

They push it off into, well, we see them pulling a miracle

out of there,

and these things can survive that long.

Every study that...

Now, have any of them...

Has anybody accused her of actual fraud with this discovery?

Yeah, well, not fraud,.

So much as people thought they were, she was looking at it originally, and I talked about that, about

the way that mimics the look,

but she's gone through and studied these techniques

and shown that these things are real.

These things are, you know, the proteins are matching up with what

he designed us, and so they're seeing that these things are not like bacteria at all.

Now, somebody protested in my audience last week when I referred to

Ms. Schweitzer as a secularist.

They insisted she is a dedicated Christian, which might lead

some to think that this was a hoax, but

however she describes herself, whether she is truly a Christian or not, she is a Darwinian

evolutionist, is she not?

Right, yeah, she's doing secular science, and so there's a lot of stuff

published to

get, you

know...

That's weird.

Finding, yeah, here's what I'm finding, and here's what...

She said even in this unpublished work, even Tyrannosaurus Rex Sue in Chicago, she said they

tested that becoming...

We're finding them also in the giraffe and deep rock layers, all the way down to the

Cambrian boundary.

They're finding worm files.

How can this be?

How can this be?

And even the secularists ask that.

So a lot of them kind of dismiss this, and just say these are some sort of chemical fossils they're now putting in their textbooks, but they don't talk about

the implications of it.

I'll just say, you know, Dr. Schweitzer didn't talk about it.

She's a Christian or not,

millions of years old.

She even tried to...

In most of these that were to work,

there's really strong evidence that the

flood was recent.

It was just thousands of years ago.

To me, it's amazing these things can last even that long, you know, 4 ,400 years since the flood.

I don't know how these things can survive, and the extreme conditions I dug in in Wyoming and Montana,

when it gets to be 100 degrees in the summer, and it's, you know, minus 20, minus 30 in the winter, and even sometimes minus 50 in eastern most

Montana.

How can these things still be preserved even after 100?

Because they're right at the surface a lot of...

Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now, and it's the longer than normal break in the middle of

the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show,

because they are required by the FCC to localize Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio to Lake City,

Florida.

And while they do that, while they air public service announcements and other localized announcements, we

simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So please make the best use of this time.

Even if you're listening to the recording of this show at some future date after the live broadcast, please

don't fast forward through the commercials.

I know that that is the temptation of many, and the practice of many, but please, our

advertisers are essential for our existence.

We could not continue to air this program without the financial support of our advertisers.

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Hi, this is John Sampson,.

Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

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Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

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I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Paul

White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And a very valuable weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, folks.

And if you want to help us remain on the air, patronizing solid

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Before we return to our guest today, Dr. Tim Clary, and more of our discussion on dinosaurs, we just

have some important announcements to make.

Tomorrow, we have a dear friend of mine returning to the program and just in time for the Christmas

season, my dear friend, Roger Salter, who is Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church

in Birmingham, Alabama, which is a conservative, historic, traditional, Bible

-believing, Reformed Anglican congregation adhering to

the 39 Articles of Religion, a very biblically faithful confession of faith and a very

Reformed one as well.

He is returning to the program this time to discuss The Wonder of the Incarnation.

That will be tomorrow.

That's Wednesday, December 9th, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, right here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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At least we're hoping for the time being and that it's not permanent.

But please, if you have been financially blessed above and beyond your

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If you're blessed above and beyond your ability financially to obey those two commands, then

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And last but not least, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church wherever you live on the planet

Earth, I may be able to help you find a church as I have done for many in this audience all

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I have even helped some folks find churches within minutes from their own house in all parts of the world

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Biblically faithful, solid churches.

So if you are in that category of being in need of a church, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address to send in a question to Dr. Tim Clary on Dinosaurs and

our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have someone listening that actually I have interviewed on this program.

I usually don't give the full names of people who

send in questions, but in this case I will because he founded a very important

ministry that you should know about if you didn't hear him on the show.

His name is Graham Dugas and he is the chairman and founder

of the Bonson Project and that website is bonsonproject .com B

-A -H -N -S -E -N project .com and that is a

resource, a very valuable resource where you can get a hold of

the writings of Dr. Greg L. Bonson, the late Dr. Bonson,

who is considered by many to be one of the most brilliant minds that Christendom has ever

produced, especially in the area of apologetics.

And Graham Dugas has a question for you and I'm looking for it right now.

It was just right in front of me.

Graham Dugas asks, can you explain why the term fossil

fuel is a misnomer and how there could never be enough biomass

to account for all the oil we have, even if the Earth was wall -to

-wall dinosaurs at one point?

Would he care to delve into abiotic oil and all its implications,

specifically that the Earth regenerates and produces oil like a machine within its crust?

Okay, that's a good question.

It's not really dinosaurs, but it's an area that I have some background in, being an oil and gas guy.

Well, I guess it is involving dinosaurs because I've even heard growing up that that's where

we get oil from, the decayed dinosaurs.

And that's probably not true.

That's why I just...

It shows you can kind of fingerprint the oils that are...

We used to frack

these shales that are black shales.

Those organics are mostly microscopic marine algae that was buried...

It is possible...

And fingerprint it back to...

The reason it didn't decay is because it was deposited so quickly

and that's

really global.

And so they have to say the algae in the

black shales...

And they've actually shown a marine

algae into oil in less than an hour.

And they've actually done this...

You know, it takes my energy to do that and to find it.

But in some ways, it really is a fossil fuel because it's fossiled and degraded.

And it

wasn't until about 200

years after the flood that we actually had oil leaking to the surface already coming up along fractures,

Tower of Babel, and they were using oil.

Talk about in the pre -flood world,

that's actually different than anything to do with oil.

It really just means co -freezing.

And it's a different word used which means more of a petroleum

product.

And that makes sense with the flood producing marine algae all over the world.

And it's still being produced today.

And to me, it's amazing.

Like just like soft tissue, oil is another example of soft tissue, original proteins that shouldn't be there if they're

millions of years old.

Yet I was taught at Shell Brown that the oil in Wyoming is 150 million years old.

I was just sitting there waiting for us to tap into it.

I've been waiting all this time.

You know, hypothetically pasteurized, which as you study groundwater geology, there is nothing pasteurized.

Everything leaks.

That's why it's leaking to the surface.

That's why it's leaking out.

You're always bringing in new bacteria.

And so most of the world's

bacteria underground, even thousands of feet down there's bacteria.

You can get it in a secular, or in a global

flood.

I think energy resources, just like coal is from plants.

These resources for energy for our generation to use.

Knowing that we would need these things was everything and it's beyond time.

And the death and destruction, the judgment of the

flood, one of

those things, again, it shouldn't be there if it's really millions of years old.

I've written several articles at icr .org if you

do a search on it.

And there's even people that wonder, OK, how can there be

a science article written

by as plenty

of...

Well, Graham Dugas of thebonsonproject .com, actually bonsonproject .com,

B -A -H -N -S -E -N project .com.

Thank you for the excellent questions.

And please make sure we have your full mailing address because you have also won a free

copy of Dr. Clary's beautiful book on dinosaurs

that we are addressing today, Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The

Science on the Biblical Account.

And cvbbs .com will ship that book out to you.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

And once again, we thank the folks at cvbbs .com for always mailing out our winners in our audience,

the books and Bibles and other things they receive by virtue of submitting questions to our guests.

And we also, again, of course, thank our guests, Tim Clary and ICR for

providing these books that we're giving away.

Another individual whose full name I will give because he is a guest, has

been a guest on this program.

And I want to promote what he does as far and wide as I can.

I have the highest appreciation and respect and love for this dear brother, Dwayne

Atkinson.

Dwayne Atkinson is founder and host of The Bar Podcast.

That is not a podcast broadcasting live from a bar.

And evidence of that is that Dwayne is neither Presbyterian nor Lutheran.

But just kidding, my Presbyterian and Lutheran friends.

But I'm sure you've got a bigger laugh out of that than anybody.

But The Bar Podcast, which stands for Biblical and Reformed, can be found

at TheBarPodcast .com.

And Dwayne has this question for you.

And this is actually a frequently asked question that

I've heard about ever since I became a Christian, actually,

in the 80s.

In the book of Job, is the behemoth and leviathan dinosaurs, or are the

behemoth and leviathan dinosaurs?

I believe they are.

And I talk about both of those for sure.

But especially the behemoth,

it seems to be some sort of a long -necked dinosaur

that went extinct.

You know, a

femur.

Indian

paleontologists put the

two together and said, okay,

sauropods did eat grass.

I can change all their paintings and all their pictures.

You know, dung, like when

infectious dinosaurs like sauropods, they're actually eating grass.

And so to me, I'm pretty certain

that the—.

I mean, the description, I don't know of anything on earth that could come close to

fitting the description of those animals.

In fact, it is strange that even in the footnotes of Bibles,

they would—the translators of these Bibles or the publishers must

feel somewhat embarrassed to theorize that they were dinosaurs because many

of them will have— that they are hippopotamus and I forget the other animal that they

attribute to these descriptions, but maybe the elephant.

Crocodile sometimes.

Right, right, right.

And to say that they had— to describe them as having tails like a cedar tree.

And of course, the armor -proof or the weapon -proof scales that are like armor.

I mean, obviously it was a reptile or lizard of some sort, or they were.

Right, I think even Spinosaurus had

big back legs

and Spinosaurus seems to fit that.

And my colleagues here, not everybody agrees.

Now, did you say a Spinosaur?

Spinosaurus, yes.

I never heard of that.

That's interesting.

Oh, that's actually the biggest theropod or meat -eating dinosaur, meat -eating after, of course, the

original dinosaurs ate plants like everything else.

They got 40, well,

45 feet long.

Here is a corny joke alert, everybody.

I couldn't resist this one.

What did the man in the chiropractic office waiting room say to the receptionist?

I'm here because my spine is sore.

Oh, anyway.

Well, that's true.

That's a good way to remember it.

But, you know, that's a possibility for Leviathan.

Again, we're not 100 % certain.

I'm a little more certain on the

tail than dinosaurs are often.

Everything's balanced about the hips, whether you're a four -legged or two -legged, everything's balanced about the hips.

And that's what, again, makes them so different than birds.

Into the resembling birds in a lot of ways.

There are some similarities in terms of the way God designed the meat -eating dinosaurs, which began, you know, meat -eaters.

I still think, until proven otherwise, I still think, you know, I think dinosaurs were

mostly not, because that's what reptiles were.

And one of the more recent discoveries out there is that dinosaurs, just this year, they showed that dinosaurs probably laid many types of

dinosaurs, snakes and stuff, too.

You see the soft, kind of, almost a leathery -looking bird.

And that's a new discovery that just came out.

I'll have to update my book on the next edition, which shows, again...

By the way, Dwayne Atkinson, host of The Bar podcast, is eagerly

desiring to interview you also.

Oh, we can do that, if he just wants to give me a call or email.

Okay, well, he could either go to icr

.org or he can email me and I'll pass on his information to you.

Okay, thank you.

And thank you, Dwayne.

And we have another very loyal listener

who's also a very faithful financial supporter of this program.

Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina.

He says, Greetings, brothers.

You said dinosaurs existed after the flood.

How did they become extinct?

In school, I was taught an ice age, but I don't see that biblically.

Okay, well, again, in the book of Job, if you read through Henry Morris, he

noted

that there's

an ice age,

actually, a

peak.

So the ice age was to the north, mostly, though.

So people live in the Middle East.

It would have been cooler and wetter

and then things started to kind of...

Dinosaurs, I think, went extinct.

Everything was pretty warm.

So if you're a cold -blooded animal, you're active.

All your bone structure...

The bone structure of the dinosaur looks a lot like

dinosaurs living in these.

But I think over time, next few centuries,

if you point them out in the book of Job, to Job, if you look at the Leviathan,

the pre -flood dinosaurs being killed

by a predator, as long as you didn't get a disease

and die.

And so many of these dinosaurs that we see, the biggest ones are probably 100

years over.

I think the

volcanic activity that was putting aerosols in the atmosphere, even the range around the

equator was a little cooler than we would think of the equator.

But they're definitely in the north and southernmost.

I think slowly, just like the animals today, we see animals going extinct.

In this fallen world, we see environments they live in.

And when those environments are gone or changed, it has nothing to do with humans destroying everything.

It's just there's natural changes in the post -flood world.

A lot of dramatic shifts in the climate with the ice age coming and going.

Dinosaurs just struggled to survive.

And eventually, humans might have helped as well.

But eventually, I believe dinosaurs did go extinct.

Probably just a few hundred years ago.

That's a long answer.

It's a difficult week

to

have.

Okay, Grady, please give us your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina, because you have

also won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The Science

on the Biblical Account.

And that will be shipped out to you by CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

And we thank them again, the folks at CVBBS .com for mailing out these books to our

winners.

And we also thank again, ICR .org for providing that.

We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, who

says, what would you say is the key reason why a discussion and a study of dinosaurs

is important to the body of Christ?

Is this anything more than satisfying the curiosity of those who have

imaginations and love animals?

Well, I think it's very, very important because so many people are confused about how our children

are being indoctrinated with dogmas and

millions of years

in the children's books.

And so our children and our teenagers and even the adults are being

indoctrinated with dogmas.

And people are just confused about dinosaurs.

People wonder about dinosaurs.

The problem is you don't see dinosaurs after the flood, in general, after the flood.

And so people think dinosaurs went extinct.

Again, plenty of it that shows dinosaurs.

But I think dinosaurs are really important when kids are fascinated by them, you know, adults, up to 90, you know, probably 100 year old people.

They're still fascinated by dinosaurs, but they don't always know how it fits in our

account and where the dinosaurs fit into the thing.

Did they get in the ark?

And we answer that question.

Yes, there's plenty of room.

There's only about 60 kinds, maybe 70 kinds of dinosaurs.

Talk about that in my book as well.

Do you know any, you know, maybe 120 to 140.

And I've heard, I think Ken Ham or somebody from his ministry say

that, of course, you didn't even need to have fully grown dinosaurs on the ark.

You could have had either eggs or even tiny dinosaur offspring.

Yeah, I don't think it maybe had eggs, but yeah, you have the juveniles.

There's a T -Rex is

maybe, you get them

on the ark before they're

planted.

We actually did the math.

Average adult size.

By the way, did I just miss, did I just misspeak when I said offspring is an animal that

lays eggs?

They are the children, for lack of a better term, of that.

That's fine.

Oh, it's okay. Okay.

Yeah, it's fine.

They're going to have offspring.

Just whether there's eggs and then the eggs hatch or not.

But the dinosaur, the size of them, even if you had the adult average size, you're looking at a bunch of,

so the average dinosaur on the ark, 200 pounds,

you would need,

I'd command it to refill the earth.

Joseph, go ahead, I'm sorry.

I was just going to tell Joseph, please make sure you give us your full mailing address in South Central

Pennsylvania, because you have won the final copy we have been given of Dinosaurs, Marvel of

God's Design.

The science on the biblical account.

And once again, that will be shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

And that is compliments of our friends, Dr. Tim Clary and

the wonderful folks at icr .org.

We're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson and this is the final segment of our interview today with Dr. Tim McClary on

his book Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The Science on the Biblical

Account.

If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're almost out of time.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

And we do have an anonymous listener who says, I bring this question up not because I

believe it, but because it is something that is out there in the public and I think it

would be good for an advocate of young earth creationism to publicly respond to.

And that is the accusation that has been held even by Christians who are old earth creationists,

that the founder of ICR was a plagiarist and therefore we should not

trust anything that he teaches or taught.

How do you respond to that?

Well, I think that's kind of flabbergasted by that because

there are people that have said he didn't, George McCready Price, he stole,

but he acknowledges him in their book in 1961.

He didn't plagiarize things when he quoted things, he gave references when he

mentioned their name.

So I'm assuming that that's,

he did acknowledge him.

I think we went to encounter it in the book in 1961

with the senior author.

I don't know where this,

I think it's rather ludicrous because he does acknowledge where he acknowledges.

Yeah, it's I think sad when unfounded accusations are hurled by brothers

in Christ towards others.

And of course, if there is something that is true about an accusation, it should be backed up and we

should not hide things that are true.

But at the same point, I have heard folks of your caliber,

respected individuals with nothing but the highest integrity defend Henry Morris and his

sons over this accusation.

So I would unhesitatingly agree with you.

I would like you now for about three minutes to uninterrupted summarize

what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, I want people to know that the dinosaurs are something I shy away from.

They do fit in the biblical account.

I got humans the same day.

I want you guys,

the audience to know

the bones themselves show

everything fits perfectly.

You can read your Bible just the way it's written.

You can believe your Bible just the way it's written.

You can believe the genealogies

and how the Genesis is written in history.

If you're an English reading,

New King James, but you read it the way it is.

And that's what is particularly confirming

exactly what.

We have here.

I want everybody to know dinosaurs are not that old.

You know, the evidence is there is stacking up that they're young,

compelling evidence.

You know, when I talk to older, this is empirical evidence because you

keep finding it again and again and again.

And again, they're young.

They can't be millions of years old.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, how do the old earth

creationists and secular scientists claim that they can prove something is

over a million years old when during scientific experiments, there is nothing to compare it

to with certainty?

Right.

They have to project back into time, but most of the time they're using radioisotope days of

assumptions that we don't have time.

They're basing on things they're claiming.

These are accurate.

How would they know?

How would they even know that they were accurate?

How could they be confident they're accurate?

Like when the listener said, you can't compare it to something.

Nearly every time when you look at the test where we know the age of the lava flow, you know, the age when they test those,

they're way up.

When we know the age and they still get the wrong numbers, they still stick with their method and

say, oh, it still works.

It's accurate.

But how scientific is that?

And if you could now let our listeners know how they can get a hold of you to invite you to

speak at their church or their school and that kind of a thing.

And what is your availability to do that sort of thing?

Well, right now we can do a lot of Zoom stuff, like they know will be available, hopefully

coming through.

This pandemic will end, but we can do Zoom right now.

And we're just glad to get the word out there to show the real science.

Amen.

And do you have any books in the oven that you're working on for publication in the near

future?

Well, I do.

My wife and I do have a children's book out there that we wrote a few years ago.

Cool.

Big plans for Henry.

It's about a little...

He has plans, and he gets around it.

And again, because my wife was a teacher and everything was evolutionary with millions of years, we wrote this book.

And there's even a plush toy you can build a dinosaur and

you gotta get a plan for it.

Very cool.

So it's a cute little story.

Well, we are out of time.

And once again, if you have interest in doing further investigation about this wonderful ministry,

ICR, go to icr .org, icr .org.

I want to thank you so much, Dr. Clary, for being such a superb guest.

Once again, I look forward to your return.

And not only soon, but frequently in the future.

And I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.

Amen to that.

Thank you very much, Chris.

Thank you, brother.