December 8, 2020 Show with Dr. Tim Clarey on “Dinosaurs: Marvels of God’s Design (the Science on the Biblical Account)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 8th day of December 2020 well it's going to be very obvious to my listeners if they listen regularly that I love dinosaurs.

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If you listen regularly you probably know that last week I had

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Jay Seeger on the program to discuss dinosaurs well today

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I have one of his colleagues Dr. Tim Clary to discuss dinosaurs some more because I love dinosaurs

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I always have been fascinated by them since I can even recall having thought as a little child and that fascination and enthusiasm over dinosaurs has never waned or vanished in my mind and Dr.

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Tim Clary received a Master of Science in Geology from the University of Wyoming, a

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Master of Science in Hydrogeology from Western Michigan University, and a

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Ph .D. in Geology from Western Michigan University who worked as an

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Exploration Geologist at Chevron USA Incorporated from 1984 to 1992 developing oil drill prospects and analyzing assets and lease purchases and was full professor of Geosciences Chair at Delta College in Michigan for 17 years before leaving in 2013 to join the science staff at the

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Institute for Creation Research also known as ICR. Having earlier conducted research with ICR in its

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FAST program F -A -S -T and has published many papers on various aspects of the

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Rocky Mountains and has authored two college laboratory books and is the author of Dinosaurs, Models of God's Creation and contributor to the

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Guide to Dinosaurs and Creation Basics and Beyond and today we are going to be addressing the aforementioned book

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Dinosaurs, Models of God's Creation, The Science on the

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Biblical account and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio Dr.

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Tim Clary and let me right away give our listeners our email address if they have questions of their own on dinosaurs our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c h r i s a r n s e n at gmail dot com please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and tell us about icr .org

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or as we said before in its full title

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Institute for Creation Research well icr was founded by Henry Morris back in 1970 as one of the earliest creation sort of apologetics organizations where we really try to look at the science and we have kind of a think tank of a group of scientists from many different backgrounds, nuclear physicists, myself in geology, biologists, geneticists and we have a new president and CEO I think

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CEC I'm not sure how they say the wording and we have a new boss Dr. Randy Kaluza who is a medical doctor and an engineer and has spent a lot of time in the

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Air Force as well and he's worked a lot with some new theories that he has on biology and kind of making some groundbreaking research there as well but all of us at ICR are conducting research looking at confirming the biblical truth of God's word and basically showing that there really was a global flood and we did not evolve, no animals, no real and nothing came from the slimy ooze and developed into humans over millions and billions of years of time so that's kind of what we do but we really pride ourselves in doing sound science.

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Well you know having had conversations with our brothers and sisters in Christ well actually so far

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I've only had these conversations with our brothers in Christ but those that happen to be old earth creationists there seems to be this idea that the

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Achilles heel of the young earth creationist movement is the lack of experienced accredited geologists in our camp but you obviously are disproof if I could say that, you are exploding that myth because you are indeed a geologist and you've had many years of experience in that field if you want to comment on that.

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Well yes I think God is using me I mean in spite of my faults and you know my sinful nature

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God I think has forgiven me and he's using me to really show that the rock records, the stratigraphy, the sedimentary rocks across the world really do show a global flood and a lot of that goes back to my training at the oil and gas company when

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I was with Chevron learning how to use oil wells, learning how to use oil well data, how to compile things, even learning how to do detailed stratigraphy from location to location.

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It's allowing me to put forth some of the greatest research I've done in my whole career and that is showing that every continent really does the same thing.

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We talked about that on previous programs with you and your listeners. We talked about the carbon stone book that I put out which shows three continents but since then we've finished another continent and we're almost done with another continent so I think the next couple of years, maybe a couple of years yet we're going to have another book out that's going to show the whole world but it really is

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I can see God's hand and his plan for my life even though I didn't always follow it. He has a way to recalculate just like with a

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GPS or with your phone. He brings you back into where he wants you to go. If you just obey

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Christ's teaching, obey the Bible, he'll bring you back and he's done that with me.

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He's given me a second chance to really use all the training I've had and teaching at the community college level and I work in oil and gas.

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All this is brought into what I'm doing now and I think this is, to me, it's a blessing from God that I'm allowed to do this work and I think it's become fruitful because it's work that shows his word is true.

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It really was this global flood out there that happened just thousands of years ago and there's a lot of evidence for that as well.

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Amen. It makes, to me, it makes the history of the planet

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Earth far more exciting and fascinating thinking of it as being not that very long ago when you speak about the creation of the universe itself and the flood and all of that.

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It's quite a fascinating concept. Now, this book,

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Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The Science on the Biblical Account, there have been other books and documentaries and so forth,

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DVDs like we discussed with your colleague Jay Siegert last week on the subject of dinosaurs.

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What compelled you to add to those volumes and to those resources that already exist just another book on dinosaurs?

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What was your compelling reason and what might you include in your beautiful hardcover book?

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What would be the compelling factor that gave you a passion to add this to our library shelves?

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Well, I wanted to put a book together that has a lot of sound science in it and up -to -date science. There's been a lot of discoveries on dinosaurs and the biology of dinosaurs and speculation about how they behave and all these different things.

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For many years, I actually, kind of like you, I've always had a fascination with dinosaurs. Back when

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I was teaching at the college level, I went back and kind of taught myself about dinosaurs.

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I learned a lot about dinosaurs. I had a paleontology class as an undergrad, but you don't really get a chance in geology programs to really study dinosaurs unless you become a paleontologist at the master's or Ph .D.

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level. I learned enough, I think, to teach an introductory course, and that's one of the lab books I had to write. I had to write an introductory lab book on dinosaurs.

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That allowed me to look at both sides of many of these issues, like were they warm -blooded, were they cold -blooded, were they like birds, or were they not, were they feathered, or were they not.

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So I had my students, even though I was at a secular school, I didn't really give them what

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I thought. I had them looking at both sides of many of these issues. To me, studying dinosaurs has been a fascinating way to really see these creatures that God created.

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They're just not mentioned in the Bible because, of course, the word dinosaur didn't show up until 1841, well after, you know, a couple centuries after the

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King James Version was translated. So you never see the word dinosaur in the Bible, but I think the Bible does talk about dinosaurs in several locations, particularly in the

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Book of Job. After the flood, there were dinosaurs that still lived for a while. They just didn't leave a lot of fossils.

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I think I might have lost track of the exact question you wanted me to finish up with, so...

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Oh, the key reason, or reasons plural, why you wanted to add a new book on the subject when resources have already existed, even by young Earth creationists.

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Well, I think it needed an update, because there were so many new discoveries out there, and it also needed some sound science in there.

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We also had to show how dinosaurs tied more directly into the Bible, and also how the dinosaurs fit into the fossil record.

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There's really been no book out there that kind of gives a comprehensive look at all the major dinosaur groups, all five sort of major groups of dinosaurs, and then goes through and shows how they fit in the biblical record, how they fit on the

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Ark. And then also talks about the biology, the latest discoveries of biology, the latest discoveries of their behavior, the latest discoveries about, can we tell whether they're male or female?

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And then also talk about why they went extinct after the Flood, and the real reasons for the extinction, and kind of look at some of these different theories that are out there.

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And I've had a chance to look at the so -called Chicxulub asteroid impact site as part of my research in the stratigraphy of South America, and then in Central America, and Mexico.

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And I was looking at that more carefully, and I realized there's really not much evidence for that asteroid impact. It can be interpreted a completely different way.

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So a lot of that I wanted to put into this book, and then also at the end, I tied it into how they fit into the rock record.

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Why dinosaurs are not found with elephants, and lions, and tigers, and bears?

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You know, people always ask, why are dinosaurs not with humans? Well, I answered that as well towards the end of the book, because I believe they lived in separate sort of ecological zones.

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And that's what my research is showing, that there was a progression to the Flood, where you flooded the lowest areas first, and then higher elevations as the

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Flood progressed through that 150 days of the water rising. Eventually, you get to the point where there's different animals and different plants, because they're different elevations.

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And so I try to tie it all together at the end to show how God's Word really does supply the basis of dinosaurs, even though it doesn't even use the word.

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But it talks about what happened and why we find them. Why we find them all lumped together, or we find 10 ,000 Mayasaura dinosaurs in Montana that I got a chance to dig on years ago with Jack Horner's crew up in eastern

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Montana, well, northern Montana, not too far from Glacier. And those areas, you know, you see the devastation, you see the effects of the

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Flood wiping these dinosaurs out at a certain level on the rock record. And this book kind of ties it all together.

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So it's good science, but it's also got the biblical account in it as well, and shows how it fits in with the biblical account.

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So really, there's nothing like it out there. It's written kind of for high school level. It's not too high level, not too low level, but I think it's a really good summary of dinosaurs and exactly how they fit into the biblical stories.

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Going back to the big fancy book learning word that you used, paleontologist, is a, well, first of all, that is specifically the study of fossils, right?

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Yes, that's people are studying fossils, which are defined as ancient life, basically anything from the

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Ice Age and previous to the Ice Age, and is really a fossil. Now, would you consider that under the umbrella of geology, or is it a cousin to geology, the field of paleontology?

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It's kind of a cousin, I guess. Most people in the States, anyway, you can't really get a paleontology degree at the bachelor's level.

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You have to get a geology degree or a biology degree, or maybe sometimes you get both, and then you go to grad school to become a true paleontologist.

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Most people, many people, anyway, they get at least a bachelor's in geology first, and they might move on to studying more paleontology at a higher level for a master's or PhD.

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Now, if you could begin by revealing some of the latest discoveries that you have become familiar with, that compelled you to write this book to begin with, on the subject of dinosaurs.

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What is new in the field of dinosaur study that perhaps even a decade ago was unknown?

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Well, it's been the last till since about 2005, there's been a lot of discoveries, and we can go down some of these.

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One of the things that they've discovered, even in the late 1990s, is that there's a lot of evidence that dinosaurs really were cold -blooded, even though most of the paleontological community has pushed warm -blooded dinosaurs, warm -blooded dinosaurs, warm -blooded dinosaurs, and I disagree with a few of my creation colleagues on this, but there's really a lot of overlooked evidence that dinosaurs are cold -blooded.

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To me, there's a lot of evidence that keeps coming out. They keep showing that dinosaurs hatched. It took three to six months to hatch from their eggs, and that fits in with what alligators do.

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There's constantly new discoveries that are coming out. The turbinates, for example, that came out in the late 1990s showing the dinosaurs didn't have these turbinates in their skull.

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They looked at four or five different dinosaurs, and they showed that they didn't have nasal turbinates, which most warm -blooded animals do.

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They kind of warm the air, and so dinosaurs' skulls were like crocodiles and alligators, and there are other studies out of Oregon State University.

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John Rubin and his team have shown for the late 90s, early 2000s, they've shown a lot of evidence that shows dinosaurs probably were cold -blooded after all, and so even though, you know, 50 years ago dinosaurs were thought to be cold -blooded, in the 60s and 70s and 80s,

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Bob Bakker and others have pushed warm -blooded dinosaurs, and now there's still a lot of science that's coming out there that shows dinosaurs were really, in fact, cold -blooded after all.

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Now is this something that paleontologists, even those that are secular, universally agree with you on?

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Oh no, not at all. There's a few that do. It's why I wrote an article and published it in a secular little journal called

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Advocates for Cold -Blooded Dinosaurs, the New Generation of Heretics. It's kind of a spin -off.

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It's always humorous to me when, and I think it's very appropriate to use terms like heretics even in a secular arena because, as you well know, the secularist scientists, even though they would never say this or admit this, at least very, very few would, probably none would, but they treat their views, their views of Darwinian evolution or whatever view they have that is anti -biblical, they treat it as a religion, and even though they've not proven many of these things scientifically, they treat these things like religious dogma that you must believe or you will be excommunicated, and in that arena that would mean public shaming, the loss of livelihoods very often, that kind of thing.

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But I interrupted you there, so if you could continue. No, no, that's fine, and that's exactly what has happened to people like Alan Paduccia, who's a bird paleontologist.

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He's a secular paleontologist, but he studies birds. That's his PhD was in paleo, you know, ornithology, and he wrote a book in 2013 called

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The Riddle of the Feathered Dragons, and he goes against consensus science and he argues against consensus science that, you know, that's not science at all.

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If it's consensus, it's not science, and he kind of goes back and quotes Michael Creighton, in fact, and he says what happens is they become these high priests, and they go out there and anybody disagrees with them, they basically try to steamroll over them, and that's kind of what happens a lot in the secular community, but there's a small number of secular scientists that do believe the dinosaurs were cold -blooded, and there's a lot of evidence to back it up, and the book talks about that.

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One of the reasons, you know, what I do, the core of the book is really a lot of the college, introductory college class that I taught.

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It talks about the five major groups of dinosaurs, a little bit about each of them, but I also get into the biology of whether they're warm -blooded or cold -blooded, and one of the labs

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I used to have my students look at, you know, here's the evidence for cold -blooded, here's the evidence for warm -blooded, you know, you guys decide what do you think, but usually when you're reading the dinosaur book out there, they only cover what they want to cover.

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They only cover the evidence that supports, you know, their view that they want to push, and they don't even mention the other data.

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So, I try to cover a little bit of both, but I do conclude with I do believe the dinosaurs were in fact cold -blooded. Now, does that view somehow uniquely bolster or support biblical creationism, or is it just an interesting fact that defies previously held presuppositions?

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I mean, is there any reason other than it is not a part of the previously held dogma that a secularist scientist would say, oh, that can't be, oh, that's just ridiculous, et cetera, et cetera.

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Why would they be opposed to that if there is some scientific evidence pointing in that direction?

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Well, that's a really good point, because what secular scientists are trying to do, and they started in the 19th century, they're trying to evolve dinosaurs into birds, and in fact what you'll see on TV and a lot of your shows and your books you'll read now, the secular books, they'll say dinosaurs are in fact birds.

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Dinosaurs kind of went extinct, but they turned into birds. And so the first step to making a dinosaur into a bird, of course, is to make it warm -blooded.

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Like birds are warm -blooded, they don't have to worry about the external, you know, conditions to warm their body, they can actually, you know, their metabolism goes just like you and I and maintains a fairly constant temperature.

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Now, there are some birds that can fluctuate their temperatures, but they have control over the temperature based on the metabolism that God gave them.

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So they're completely different than dinosaurs. And to try to say that dinosaurs evolved into birds, the first step you've got to do is make dinosaurs warm -blooded as well.

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There's a big question, when did dinosaurs become warm -blooded? Well, you know, they're kind of doing what's called verification science.

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They're verifying what they think they already know. But in fact, there's a lot of science, which I show in my book, that shows that dinosaurs really were cold -blooded.

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A lot of evidence to really back that up. So I think it's important because I just think there's a lot of creation scientists out there, paleontologists that are saying dinosaurs had feathers.

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By the way, it might blow my listeners' minds, it might blow your minds too, but I actually saw a guy with a top hat and a cape turn a handkerchief that he pulled out of his sleeve into a bird.

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So that was pretty fascinating. Yeah, well, it's a slight of hand is a different thing.

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But that's pretty good. But you know, there's a lot of people that are out there in the creation community as well that are saying dinosaurs had feathers.

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And I don't think the evidence is there. I had a big powwow with AIG, one of our sister organizations, and David Metten over there basically showed that the anatomy of dinosaurs and birds are completely different.

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They balance on their hips. Birds and dinosaurs walk completely differently.

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The birds have their thighs kind of inside their body and walk on their knees kind of, whereas dinosaurs balance on the hip.

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And so they're a completely different body structure that was created by God as birds and dinosaurs. Of course, even different days, land animals versus the flying animals, different days of the creation week.

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So birds and dinosaurs are not related at all. And it's one of the reasons why I don't believe that dinosaurs were warm -blooded.

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There's too much evidence showing they're cold -blooded, but that's been often dismissed. Now, you're giving weight to the reason that there was actually an agenda behind this,

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I'm assuming then. I was puzzled recently when I was watching

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TV and a commercial came on, and it had something to do with an event that involved dinosaurs.

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This was a secular event, and they showed an animation of what looked like what somebody who is not an expert in these matters might assume was either a

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Tyrannosaurus rex or an Allosaurus. It had that look to it. But as it was running through the jungle, chasing something to eat, it was covered with white feathers.

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And I was like, why on earth did they cover this dinosaur with feathers in this animation?

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And you're actually revealing at least partially one of the reasons. Right. And the secular community wants to...

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That's their agenda. They want to make dinosaurs into birds, so they're going to put them on as much as they can. There's very, very little evidence that dinosaurs had feathers.

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I mean, it's like everything in geology or paleontology, it's all forensic science. So we can't go back and see these animals alive today.

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They are extinct now, we're pretty sure. So we don't really know. But we do have hundreds and hundreds of skin imprints of dinosaurs, and they never show feathers.

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Even the T -Rexes, a couple of years ago, and I put this in my book, 2017. The dinosaurs, T -Rexes, were found in...

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The secular community finally had to come out and admit that T -Rex did not have feathers. But all the other theropod dinosaurs, the spuds with the meat -eaters did, they think, because even though T -Rex didn't, they found enough skin imprints, they finally admitted that.

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But there's skin imprints all over, and none of them show feathers. What they're seeing, in many cases, they call these proto feathers.

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These proto, these little wispy -looking hair -like things coming off the body. And Alan Fiducia actually did some, he's a secular paleontologist, bird paleontologist.

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He actually squished an animal today, I think it was a dolphin, squished it in some sediment and showed that you get these collagen fibers coming off that looks like these, what they're calling proto feathers.

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So what they believe are these evolving feathers are really just collagen in the skin of these animals. They're kind of, as they got buried so quickly in the flood, they got kind of squished and out came these little fibers that look like hairs.

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The bird's tooth feathers, which they say are feather dinosaurs that they find in China, that's again another whole book that Alan Fiducia wrote about and dispelled the myth that these things really are birds.

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He said their hip structure, like David Metton at AIG showed, they're completely different than a dinosaur.

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They would fall over if you pulled their legs down, made them walk like a dinosaur. And so many of these animals that we're believing and being told are feather dinosaurs are in fact just extinct birds.

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And unfortunately, Alan Fiducia, because he goes against mainstream secular science, he's ignored and shunned, just like a lot of creationists are in mainstream science were ignored and shunned as well.

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But the scientific evidence is stacking up, and I put it in my book, that shows it's pretty compelling that dinosaurs were in fact cold -blooded dinosaurs, in fact, did not have feathers.

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And even some of the secular publications, like I said, on the T -Rex, they're now saying, okay, T -Rex didn't have feathers.

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Okay, we have to go to our first break right now, and we've already got a line forming of listeners with questions for you.

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38:53

Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, if you just tuned in to Iron Phillip and Zion Radio.

39:01

Our guest today for the full program is Dr. Tim Clary, and we are discussing

39:08

Tim's book, Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, The Science, on the biblical account.

39:15

If you'd like to join us on the air, the question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

39:22

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

39:32

USA. We have a question from a very faithful and generous listener,

39:39

Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia, who has become a very generous financial supporter of this program on a regular basis, and we thank

39:49

God for him. Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia says, Hello brothers, are dinosaur fossils found on every continent?

39:59

And also, what are the odds that a dinosaur, or should I say, a living dinosaur, could be discovered today?

40:08

Thank you. Okay, those are great questions. Actually, dinosaurs are found on every continent, including

40:15

Antarctica. There's been quite a few of them found, you know, of course not in the ice, but up in the rocks that are on the edges of the coast, and up in some of the mountains that run through the, stick up through the ice in Antarctica.

40:26

So yes, dinosaurs were all over the Earth, and they probably lived in different places. Again, I kind of subscribe to catastrophic plate tectonics, so I believe there was kind of a nearly more of a one continental world at one point that split up during the flood, and that's another story in itself, but that's why we have dinosaurs on every continent.

40:46

I think they lived in lowland areas on all these different locations around the world during the flood, they split up.

40:52

And of course, Lou's question, his second question, reveals his ignorance. He must not be watching television because he asks, what are the odds that a living dinosaur could be discovered today?

41:04

Does he not know that the vice president under Barack Obama is claiming to have won the victory in the latest presidential election?

41:13

Well, that's true. He is pretty old.

41:20

I've been accused of being a dinosaur, and I'm not that old. But no, I don't really, you know, I think all the dinosaurs after the flood, again, probably because they were cold -blooded,

41:29

I think they slowly went extinct after the flood. I doubt if there's any dinosaurs today.

41:34

I mean, it's possible. Couldn't it be especially a smaller size dinosaur? Because, you know, very often people think of dinosaurs.

41:42

It could be somewhere like in the Congo somewhere, maybe, you know, somewhere where there's very little human traffic.

41:48

And it's a warm area. Did you say in someone's condo or the Congo? The Congo.

41:55

That could be too. But no, I mean, you know, the fact that this world even tried to take a chicken egg and try to go back and backtrack it, and that didn't work out very well.

42:04

They've been working on that for well over a decade. And that's not really panned out because they really aren't like birds.

42:10

There's a lot of differences between dinosaurs and birds. But we talked about that earlier. I don't think you're going to find a dinosaur today.

42:16

I think, you know, we've humans have been all over the place. If they did find one, it would be another living fossil, just like the coelacanth fish and other things that in the rock record, of course, dinosaurs disappeared around the end of the

42:27

Cretaceous level. You don't see them above that, just like the coelacanth fish was the same way. But obviously you can't rule it out because there are even areas on the planet, from what

42:38

I understand from missionaries, that are un -evangelized still in the 21st century. Yeah, I agree.

42:45

I mean, they can't. So the odds are really, really small, but it's possible. Because they did live probably until just a few hundred years ago.

42:52

There's a lot of carvings. I cover some of that in my book, but there are other books out there by Vance Nelson and others that have done a much more extensive job looking at the, you know, the paintings and the carvings and the draperies and other things of what appear to be dinosaurs all over the world.

43:07

And I did a little of that in my book just to kind of give you the flavor. But there's a lot of evidence, not only in the

43:12

Book of Job in the Bible, but there's a lot of evidence, you know, by carvings and things. Back to the one in Cambodia that looks like a stegosaurus.

43:21

And I talk about that in my book as well. We see this carving of what appears to be on a column of, you know, monkeys and lions, and now all of a sudden the animal looks just like a stegosaurus.

43:31

You know, we didn't know what a stegosaurus looked like until the latter part of the 19th century. Really into the 20th century before we really kind of found out that the plates stick up on its back and that sort of thing.

43:41

Yeah, I'd be remiss, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't. We've got to have a segment in here somewhere in the next hour on the dinosaur original tissues, or soft tissues, as we're called.

43:52

The evidence they're finding in these dinosaur bones, over a hundred of them have been published now, not just dinosaurs, but other animals and worms and things that are really deep in the rock record.

44:01

They're supposed to be, you know, hundreds of millions of years old. Well, I mean, you can go into detail on that now.

44:09

We did discuss that a bit last week when we had Jay Siegert on, but still not everybody who heard

44:15

Jay is listening today. So, but let me first tell the good news to our listener

44:24

Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia. You have won a free copy of this beautiful hardcover book with photographs and illustrations, a really beautiful book, called

44:37

Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Creation. And just make sure we have your full mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia, so that CVBBS .com,

44:53

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to us at CVBBS .com.

45:03

Look for that in the return section on the package that you get in the mail or the senders section.

45:11

And that will be the book, no doubt. And we want to thank also ICR for providing us with these books and specifically our guest today,

45:22

Tim Clary. We thank you for his, we thank him for his generosity. Okay, well, why don't you, before we go into any other listener questions, because we do have some, why don't you go into some of this discussion on the soft tissue of dinosaurs that's been discovered?

45:38

Okay, again, that's another thing that's in my book a little bit, some of it updated. There's been a lot of discoveries since 2005.

45:45

And if you go back in the literature, you know, my colleague here at ICR, Brian Thomas, he's actually gone back and found that there are earlier discoveries of original proteins and tissues and blood vessels and blood cells.

45:56

But most of this came to, you know, the national attention in 2005 when Mary Schweitzer had a

46:02

T -Rex thigh bone, and she cracked open it, so she was doing some studies.

46:07

And to clean it up, she put in too much acid and dissolved away all the bone, and all she had left was this kind of soft collagen -looking material.

46:16

And she found out doing more and more studies, of course, that it really was the original collagens, the original proteins.

46:21

And since then, they've just, you know, they've concluded, secular community has concluded they found dinosaur blood vessels are still flexible and soft.

46:29

And they won't quite admit the red blood cells yet. They keep saying they're red blood cell -like. But they found bone -making cells, osteocytes cells, and all those other marvelous, amazing structures are still there preserved in bones that have been laying there, you know, close to the surface for hundreds of years, freezing and thawing in Montana and things like that.

46:50

And yet, inside the bones, they're still finding original proteins, which can't last anywhere near even one million years.

46:57

Don't some of her colleagues dismiss this discovery?

47:03

Yeah, a lot of them. There's still journals, from what I understand, there's even some journals that reject any paper.

47:10

I believe the Society of Vertebrate Paleontologists rejects every paper submitted that talks about original tissues or original collagens.

47:17

And, you know, my colleague, again, Dr. Brian Thomas here at ICR, he's looking at a new way to image collagen.

47:23

He's working on some research. His PhD was actually in paleobiology, looking at, you know, imaging collagen and some of these original proteins still in many of these bones.

47:34

And so he's seen them throughout the, you know, the Jurassic dinosaurs, the Cretaceous dinosaurs. I don't think he's tested any

47:40

Jurassic ones yet. Well, has this discovery caused any secular scientists to change their position on the age of dinosaurs?

47:54

Not to my knowledge, because what they do is they'll say, yep, that's impossible, like Jack Horner said in the interview in 60

48:00

Minutes. Yep, that's impossible. But yet, you know, he even says the Cretaceous, they're going to love these discoveries.

48:05

And we do, because they do show, you know, strong evidence that the Earth is much younger than they say. They refuse to change,

48:13

I know, but they refuse to change their point of view. They just think, well, there's just some miraculous way that these were preserved.

48:20

We just don't understand it. But they know that these rocks are, you know, that they're founded are millions of years old. So therefore, these miraculous preservation, these has to be some, you know, process, which we don't understand.

48:32

No. They push it off into, well, we see them, but they don't want to believe that these things indicate they're younger than they really are.

48:39

They just try to find some, you know, they're pulling a miracle out of their hat, so to speak, to try to say these things can survive that long.

48:46

Every study that's ever been done by physical chemists has shown these things can't last that long. Now, have any of them...

48:52

Material. Has anybody accused her of actual fraud with this discovery? Yeah, well, not fraud so much as people thought they were...

49:00

She was looking at it originally. And I talk about that in my book about it as well. They thought it was just biofilms, you know, where you're getting these bacteria that mimics the look of these particular structures that she's gone through and studied these with, you know, really up -to -date science techniques and shown that these things are real.

49:20

These things are, you know, proteins that are matching up with proteins of living alligators, crocodiles, and even birds in different respects because there's a similarity in a lot of our

49:28

DNA and stuff and structures and the way our bones are constructed by God when he designed us.

49:35

And so they're seeing that these things are not like bacteria at all. These are real proteins and structures from those original animals.

49:42

I know somebody protested in my audience last week when I referred to Ms.

49:49

Schweitzer as a secularist. They insisted she is a dedicated

49:54

Christian, which might lead some to think that this was a hoax.

50:02

But however she describes herself, whether she is truly a

50:08

Christian or not, she is a Darwinian evolutionist, is she not? Right, yeah, she's doing secular science.

50:14

And so there's a lot of people that, unfortunately, to get stuff published, to get papers published, we got a chance to hear her about two years ago here in Dallas.

50:25

She came and spoke and she talked about soft tissues, but she didn't really talk about the implications of them at all.

50:31

And so, you know, she said, That's weird. Finding, yeah, here's what I'm finding. She said even in this unpublished work, even

50:37

Tyrannosaurus Rex Sue in Chicago, she said they tested that and they found all sorts of soft tissue and original tissues inside that as well.

50:44

So she goes, it's becoming, you know, the norm, not the exception to find soft tissues in dinosaurs, particularly from the, you know, the highest dinosaur levels, the

50:53

Cretaceous. But, you know, we're finding them also in the Jurassic. We're finding them down in deeper rock layers, all the way down to the

50:59

Cambrian, and actually almost to around the pre -Cambrian -Cambrian boundary, they're finding worm fossils that are still soft and original tissues.

51:06

Things are supposed to be around 500 million years old. You know, and you keep saying, How can this be? How can this be?

51:11

And even the secularists ask that. So a lot of them kind of dismiss this and just say these are some sort of chemical fossils they're now putting in their textbooks, but they don't talk about the implications of it.

51:20

I'll just say, you know, Dr. Schweitzer didn't talk about it as well. But unfortunately, you know, whether she's a

51:26

Christian or not, she's doing secular science. And so she's following the secular model that these things are millions of years old.

51:34

She even tried to explain away with some sort of iron solution, which isn't even in most of these locations where they're finding these original soft tissues.

51:41

So even if that were to work to help preserve things, it doesn't work for most of the discoveries anyway.

51:47

So there's really strong evidence in the rocks and in the bones of these dinosaurs and other animals that the flood was recent.

51:55

It was just thousands of years ago. To me, it's amazing these things can last even that long, you know, 4 ,400 years since the flood.

52:01

I don't know how these things can survive. And the extreme conditions I dug in in Wyoming and Montana, when it gets to be 100 degrees in the summer and it's minus 20, minus 30 in the winter, even sometimes minus 50 in eastern most

52:13

Montana. How can these things still be preserved even after hundreds and hundreds of years of that? Because they're right at the surface.

52:20

A lot of them are very, very close to the surface. Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now. And it's the longer than normal break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:31

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to localize

52:38

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52:51

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53:04

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53:13

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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