The Tom Schreiner Interview

Room For Nuance

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Well, hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Room for Nuance podcast. We're really excited to share this interview with you, and we're really, really excited to share that we're going to be doing a book giveaway with this interview as well.

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That's right. Our good friends at Crossway have so kindly offered to give us a few different copies of The Justice and Goodness of God by Dr.

00:19

Tom Schreiner. This book makes a biblical case for the final judgment. We know that you'll enjoy it, so here's what you got to do to win it.

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Three things. Step number one, you got to subscribe to our YouTube channel. So if you're watching this video right now, this will be the easiest step that you can do.

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And then step number three is you have to share this video on Facebook and be sure to tag us in the post.

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If you do those three things, you will be entered for a chance to win this book. That's it. We'll make sure to get in contact with you when we pick the winners.

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With that, we hope that you enjoy this episode. We are back with another episode of the

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Room for Nuance podcast. I'm Sean DeMars here with... Tom Schreiner. Brother, would you open us in prayer?

01:17

Sure. Father, we just pray now that you would lead us in this conversation.

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Lord, we thank you that we have this time to talk and to think about matters. And Lord, we, as always, we need your

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Holy Spirit. So we pray that you'd come, speak through us, guide us, strengthen us.

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May this be for the edification of the church and the glory of your great name. We pray this in Jesus' name.

01:44

Amen. Amen. So we typically like to start off these episodes by hearing people's testimonies.

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Do you think you can tell us how you came to know the Lord? Sure. So I grew up as a Catholic. I'm... Like practicing?

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When I was young, yeah. So I went to Catholic schools for nine years. I'm the sixth of eight kids outside of...

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Little north of Salem, Oregon. My dad was a nurseryman. Like working with plants?

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So my dad had 100 acres, worked outside. He grew iris, which is a flower, and daylilies.

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So, and I worked out there every summer once I was fifth grade. So great, great.

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That's what taught me discipline. You know, all my friends in those days, they weren't working.

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And I'd have to be out there at seven in the morning working for my dad.

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So yeah, that was great. When I was young, yeah, we had priests in our house.

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I was taught by holy name nuns in grade school.

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I went to a Catholic high school for one year. But as I got older, you know,

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I was born in 54. The 60s came, even the Catholic church was liberalizing more.

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We felt it in our community. By the time I was eighth, ninth grade,

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I wasn't observing it at all. I mean, I skipped church whenever I could, if my parents didn't notice.

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I had nothing against the Catholic church. I had great experiences as a kid in the Catholic schools, my friends.

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But I clearly didn't know the Lord. So yeah, the

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Catholic school closed. And so I started going to a public school. I went from a school of 300 to a school of 2 ,203 grades.

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So that was a huge change. Just to keep it shorter, at the end of my junior year,

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I started dating a girl. And I didn't know she was a Christian. She was a young Christian.

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We don't believe in missionary dating. Amen. Okay. It's not a good idea.

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But she was raised as a Lutheran and had become a Christian the summer before. And, you know, if people ask me, sometimes people ask me at school, are you a

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Christian? And I'd be like, I'm a Catholic. What do you mean? Am I a

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Christian? The question made no sense to me. Like, are you a Christian? Of course,

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I'm a Christian. I'm a Catholic. I didn't care. And I mean, you know, to me, you're a

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Catholic, you're a Protestant. Do you like the Seahawks or the 49ers? Whatever. So, but then

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I really, you know, it's funny. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I think it has problems theologically.

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But I'd never really heard the gospel. I mean, you know, every once in a while as a

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Catholic, I'd think, I wonder if I'm going to heaven. And then I'd think, well,

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I think I'm more good than bad. I think I'm 51 % good. And then I'd think, am

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I 51 % good? I'd have a little doubt. And then, yeah, I wouldn't think about that again for a year.

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It just flit away. So, you know, not thinking about the gospel. But the interesting thing is what struck me,

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I'm dating this girl. And she says to me, you know, I'm 16 years old, almost 17.

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But she says to me one night, you know, the Lord convicted me last night, reading

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James, that I need to be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.

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And, you know, as evangelicals, people talk like this all the time, right? Yeah, it just feels so normal. You forget how weird it is to people.

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But to me, it was like, wow, that's, you know, growing up in Catholic Church, I'd never ever heard anybody speak that personally about their relationship with God.

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I was like, wow, that's, that's fascinating. It was intriguing to me. Then she said to me a few days later, the

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Lord convicted me that I'm too critical of my mom. Again, so real, authentic, personal.

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I was very intrigued by that. Just, I'd never heard anything like it.

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So then she invited me to a Bible study in her home. And there's like 10 to 12 kids my age, all talking about the

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Bible and what it means to their lives. Again, I, you know, I'd sat in religion classes, but I'd never sat around people that seemed to mean something to their lives, who they were.

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So again, that fascinated me. After, you know, a few weeks, I told her one day,

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I love you. She said to me, no, you don't. Wow. She's feisty.

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I like that about her. So, uh, cause we're married now. Do you like the feistiness as much this many years later?

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What I say is I like it most of the time. 90 % of the time.

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This is amazing. So she said, no, you don't. I do say it's a parable of things to come.

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Cause I said, yes, I do. No, you don't. You know, back and forth I went. And she said, you don't know what love is. And she had the living

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Bible. She handed me 1 Corinthians 13. I'd never read the Bible in my life ever. Heard it in church.

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Went to, went to Catholic school. Yeah, yeah. But never read the Bible. Never read the Bible. You know, we were encouraged to priests interpret the

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Bible in those days. And you do catechism questions and stuff, I'm sure. Yeah. And, you know, Catholics are diverse and Vatican II's happened.

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And, you know, you can't say that what my experience is the experience of all

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Catholics. But in my community, there's a big red Bible in our home. I remember

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I picked it up once. I looked at it and I thought, this looks really dull. This looks super boring.

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But I read the, you know, I read 1 Corinthians 13 and I said, wow, that's beautiful.

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Can I take this book home and read it? Cause I've always been a reader. So I took home and started reading the

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Bible. Started seeing Jesus. Started, you know, the beauty and love and power of Christ just struck me.

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You know, as a Catholic, I already believed in the Trinity. I believe Jesus was God. I believe the Bible was the word of God.

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Did I care? I didn't care. But I believe those things. So, you know,

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I just saw the beauty of Christ. I saw, hey, we're saved by faith.

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Not by works. I'd never, ever heard that. I remember going out to my mom and my mom, no longer alive, but very gentle, sweet, loving, wonderful mom.

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I said to my mom, she was out on the couch. She was reading. She was a big reader. And I said to her, hey mom, the

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Bible says, I don't know what I said cause it was years ago, but something like the Bible says we're saved not by works, but by faith.

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And my mom just said, I don't believe that. And, but, you know, by then the

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Holy Spirit was working in my heart. I knew my mom didn't read the Bible either. And I, the

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Spirit and the word told me my mom's wrong. I love her. I knew my mom was wrong.

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I knew she didn't know the scriptures. So, you know, maybe this 45 days,

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I never wrote down the day, but this, you know, I started dating the person who ended up being my wife,

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April 3rd, 1971, late May. I'm in study hall, public school.

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And I sense God in the room with me, not literally, right? But his presence is there.

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And I sense him speaking to me again, not orally. And I sense him saying, will you give me my, your whole life?

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And I was scared. I was frightened because I didn't want to give him my whole life in one sense. But by then the beauty of Christ, the power of the gospel, and I thought you'll make me give up Diane.

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Yes. I don't want to give up Diane. And then the second thing, which is fascinating for me as a Catholic, I thought you'll make me be a missionary.

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I don't want to be a missionary. But I just, you know, by then the power and beauty of Christ, I said,

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Lord, whatever it is. What were you doing in study hall? Were you reading something? Were you reading the

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Bible? Were you praying? Or were you just pouring over some like homework? You know, I don't remember, but I might've brought my

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Bible. Okay. You know, it was one of these, you know, it said reach out on it. I still have it.

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Okay. It said, reach out. And there are pictures of kids on it. So, and it was the early seventies.

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So our school, you know, you had the Jesus freaks in the school and you had the kind of druggies and the athletes.

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And so it wasn't weird at that time to bring your Bible to school. Right. How old were you?

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17. 17. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So that's when I became a believer right then.

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Wow. And did you rush to tell your future wife? Did you say I'm saved? Like who was the first person you wanted to tell?

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I don't remember. That's a great question. I have no recollection what I did next.

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I probably told her. Yeah. I can't remember. And was the relationship easier, better after that?

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No, not really. It was pretty much the same. Yeah. You know.

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That's great. The early stages of the relationship, even as a non -believer, I was nice. Right. Right.

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Yeah, that's right. Okay. So when do your parents find out that you're saved? Yeah. I don't know exactly.

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Were you afraid to tell them? I don't remember being afraid. They found out soon.

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Okay. Very soon. And were they like, oh no, he's a Protestant. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They didn't like it.

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And some of my brothers and sisters. I remember I have seven brothers and sisters. Right. So yeah, it was difficult.

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I mean, my parents were great. Good, kind, loving. Wonderful parents. But I remember my mom saying to me at one point, do you have to be a fanatic?

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You know. Tone it down a bit. You can be Protestant, but not so in our face about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she said to me another time, you know, and I'm such a young believer.

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Do you take the Bible literally? I could hear in the question. I didn't even know what that meant.

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I could hear in the question, that's dumb, you know? Right. And I was like, yeah,

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I guess I do. I don't know. Do I take the Bible literally? Yeah. And my dad would get a little more upset.

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He said to me one time, never talk about religion in this house. Oh no. And he said to me another time, don't you know you should never talk about religion and politics with anybody?

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And I said to him, dad, that's not what Jesus said, which really made him upset.

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But overall, you know, they were upset with me. You know, overall, they were really kind.

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Yeah. You know. And you were probably a good kid in general.

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Yeah, yeah. I did lie to them about some things early on. I was afraid to tell them something. So I was going to a

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Bible study. Yeah. And I told them I'm going to a school event. This is the opposite of the teenage rebellion experience that most kids go through.

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I'm going to a party to drink, but you tell them I'm going. You're like, I got to hide the fact I'm going to a Bible study.

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Exactly, exactly. Oh, wow. But then I started going to Catholic church and Protestant church.

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They knew that. My dad took me to a priest. The priest explained. Again, I don't think this is official

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Catholic doctrine. You know, he's my local parish priest. Nice guy. But he told me, hey,

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Protestants can go to heaven. Catholics who become Protestants will go to hell.

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So I don't think that's official Catholic doctrine. But at the time, again, I mean,

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I was so thoroughly saved. I didn't believe a word he said. You're just sitting there. It's just bouncing off of you.

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I'm just like, I'm doing this because my dad took me. I'll do what my dad said.

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Yeah. And at this time, I mean, because you're a reader and because you're, I think it's safe to say, pretty smart, are you just like digging in the word constantly?

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Like, are you just like devouring the scriptures? Yeah, I'm reading the Bible. And that's the thing.

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I had nothing. I could have been a Catholic, but I'm reading the Bible. I mean, it's very simple, right?

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I read 1 Corinthians 9. Peter was married. I mean, you know,

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I don't know what the Catholic church officially says about this, but I was taught Peter was the first pope.

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I know they believe that. But also, the pope had a wife. You know,

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Catholic church, you don't. Priests don't marry. Peter, that blew my mind.

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Right. Did you say any of this to the priest or did you just let him do his thing? Did you push back? Did you argue with him at all?

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No, no, no, no. Because my strategy was mollify my dad, listen to the priest, be nice, then

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I can do what I want. I can go to church with my wife, so I'll just listen to him.

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But in my mind, I'm like, I don't believe what you're saying. Okay, what's the first Protestant church you begin to explore?

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I mean, did you wander into like a healthy church or was it like a squishy big box, seeker -sensitive evangelical church?

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So the Bible study at my wife's house was led by a conservative Baptist youth pastor.

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And he was awesome. And he had a great influence on my life. Praise God for good youth pastors.

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He was amazing. I had so many questions. He was a joyful, happy, great guy.

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I'd go to his office sometimes and talk to him. So, you know, we started meeting as youth

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Sunday morning, Sunday schools, Sunday nights, Wednesday nights,

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Bible studies, you know, with the youth. And then retreats.

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I mean, I was doing these things all the time. And at the time, you know, I look back now, but I'm coming out of Catholicism and I'm sitting in Sunday school and I'm thinking,

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Sunday school is awesome. I love this. This is so great. You're such a weird kid.

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And I'm looking around at all the other kids and I'm thinking, they're loving this. And then

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I realized, you know, some years later, a lot of them are bored. They're bored out of their mind. And, you know,

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I mean, who knew? I don't know who. They weren't all saved. But at the time, I thought all

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Protestants are saved. You know, Protestants are saved. They all know the gospel. They all love Jesus.

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They're loving this. I had no idea. You know, some of them, they're bored.

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They hate this. Maybe they grew up in families that were externally Christian, but they weren't really saved.

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You know, who knows? Did you go into like an apologetics phase, contra the

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Catholics kind of a thing? No. No, I did not. You were just happy to leave that in the rear view and follow

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Jesus faithfully. I just read the Bible. I read Hebrews. I'm like, yeah, the Catholic Church is wrong. Nothing against it.

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Is anyone at this time giving you good Christian books to help with your discipleship? Yeah, my youth pastor.

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Okay, like what are some books that he gave you to help you? Well, like when I went to college, he gave me a lot of Francis Schaeffer.

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Oh. Yeah. So that was really helpful. The God Who's There, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. A lot of Schaeffer. But mainly, and I don't totally agree with this now, and it wasn't totally helpful.

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Yeah. As a young Christian, I was taught Keswick. Yeah, Keswick Theology. So. Andy Nacelli has a great contra

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Keswick Theology book, just to plug it real quick, called No Quick Fix. Yeah. And actually, one of those books

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I wrote the foreword for. Oh, there you go. Whatever, was it his dissertation? I can't remember. They took his dissertation and turned it into a more popular level.

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Yeah, and that's a great treatment. So that was what I was taught. So I read, you know, not everybody knows these books, but Major Ian Thomas, Charles Trumbull, Hannah Whittall Smith, Oswald Chambers.

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No Oswald Chambers. You know, and Victory in Christ, Andrew Murray. Yeah. Watchman Nee.

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Watchman Nee, big one. All these guys. And of course, there's a lot that's great in that. Sure. It's Christ dwelling in you.

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He gives you the power to live a new life. So, you know, I found all that thrilling.

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But when I read that, I think, hey, I'm not there. Right. I'm not there.

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I fall short. But I think that theology, J .I. Packer went through this as well, right?

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That theology can be very depressing and discouraging. You can read, Packer says he experienced this until he found the

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Puritans in Owen. But for me, I didn't get depressed because I think, well,

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I'm a young believer. When I'm a believer longer, I'll get there. You know, I'll progress to that.

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So I became a Christian when I was 17, went to university, secular university. Where'd you go?

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It's called, now it's called, it keeps changing its name. Okay. Small little university in Oregon called

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Western Oregon University. So I majored in English and philosophy.

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I'd say a lot of my teachers were Marxists. So, yeah, it was just typical secular university.

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Only 3 ,000 students. Still kind of is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know,

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I'm just reading all these books and going to Bible studies, loving it.

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Married Diane at 21. Yeah. So I want to hear more about the marriage thing. As you're going through this college experience and you're hearing all these radically unbiblical worldviews coming at you, you're in English class getting it, maybe economics class getting it, philosophy class getting it.

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Are you having any trouble with discernment? No, not really because, yeah, the

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Lord had so saved me that, you know, I remember hearing in Western Civ, Paul invented a new religion.

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And I'm thinking, that's weird. You know, later I found out that came from Albert Schweitzer. But I'm just thinking,

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I know that's wrong. I know that person's not saved. Wow. I don't know why it's completely wrong.

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I can't argue with him. Yeah. But I know that's mistaken. And I'm getting these

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Francis Schaeffer books. Yeah. And I'm reading those. And those are helping me a lot. So that, no, that didn't cause any doubts.

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You know, I did go through a period of doubt, not because of school, about whether the resurrection really happened. Okay. But then, you know...

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What led to that? I don't know. Okay. Just had some questions.

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Yeah. But, you know, as I, I don't know what I read at the time, but I became convinced, yeah,

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Jesus, it's historical. There's good reasons for it. Yeah. So that was resolved.

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Yeah. Okay. So you got your degree in? I was an English major and a philosophy minor.

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Okay. And you got married while you were in college? Yes. Nice. And how long have you been married now?

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49 years. That's a lot of grace, brother. Any big plans for 50? You guys going to blow it out?

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No, not really. Our kids threw us, we just turned 70 this year. And our kids, we have four kids and 12 grandkids.

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And they threw us a big surprise party for our 70th. So we can't, we don't want to do it again, you know, at 50.

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Actually, we're going to all go to Colorado together and have fun. Oh, that sounds great. I did not know you were 70.

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You don't seem to be 70 to me. Maybe 75, 80 or. Yeah, I was thinking more like pushing 90.

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No, I was thinking younger than that. Okay. So you graduate college, then what?

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Then I went to seminary. And that's because the youth pastor guy, sorry, the youth pastor guy was like, you need to go be a pastor.

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Or did you feel an inward calling? Are you leading Bible studies on college campus? What leads you to do this?

22:20

Yeah, that's it. So my youth pastor, the year, yeah, it's so interesting.

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You know, my senior year is the first full year I'm a Christian. Senior year of high school.

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Yeah, yeah. My freshman year of college, he, I look back on this and think, wow, why did he do this?

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He, I start teaching the high school or Sunday school and in other times.

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And, and this is a church of about a thousand. Okay. Big church. You know, there's a, I mean, how big was the high school class?

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30, 40, 50? I can't remember. Okay. It was pretty big. So I'm, I'm teaching, right?

22:59

Yeah. And I don't know what, I look back and think, what did I teach these guys? I don't know. I can't remember, fortunately.

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Yeah. What I said. I don't think it was heretical. Probably I taught them Keswick. Yeah.

23:12

I guess. And whatever I thought the Bible was saying. You know, my first Bible study was at home.

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He asked me to read a Bible study. I remember it was on 1 John. It was just with another couple.

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I read it beforehand and I thought, well, this is easy. And then we get there and I, I remember this experience.

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We get there and we read it and I'm like, there it is. I mean, what do

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I say now? I've literally done this before. You read it. You think I'll be able to teach this. There it is.

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And then I really have no more to say. Yeah. I realized I guess

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I have to do more than just reading it beforehand because to me it was. Self -evidently.

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Yeah. It was just, I didn't know what else to say about it. So anyway, but maybe to back up.

24:06

I knew the first time I taught, thought about after I was a Christian, what should

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I do with my life? I knew I was called to ministry. Really? Nobody ever said anything to me.

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The youth pastor never said anything to me. I don't remember. I probably told him that.

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That was too long ago for me to remember. But I just knew. And was that because you love teaching

24:32

God's word? No, no. I just felt I should do it.

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Because I hadn't taught yet. Wow. And in fact, I was afraid to get up in front of people and speak.

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So I said to the person I was dating who became my wife, Diane, I said to her, I need to take speech class in the fall.

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Because I need to get used to speaking in front of people. Because I'm going to have to do this. Yeah. So I signed up.

24:58

Wow. So you really knew. I really knew. And yeah. So and actually, it was the early 70s.

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I didn't want to go to seminary. I thought people, I thought seminaries were unspiritual. I wanted to go into ministry.

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I wanted to go to the scribe school with a pastor named Ray Steadman. I don't know if you've heard that name in Palo Alto.

25:18

He was really well known then. A lot of, it was the Jesus people movement. Sunday night services.

25:24

People would come. Hippies would come on drugs. And they'd just stand up. And people would bear witness to how they were saved by Jesus.

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That's where I wanted to go. And again, I can't remember. I didn't get in there. So then I was like,

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I guess I have to go to seminary. But it's a waste of my time. Yeah. I don't want to go to seminary.

25:42

I just want to go be a pastor and minister. But I guess I have to do this ticket to get there.

25:48

Yeah. And right away when I went to seminary, I realized in my very first class,

25:54

I don't know anything. Wait, where did you go? Western Seminary in Portland. Yeah. Okay. And it's still there. It's still there.

25:59

And my son, Patrick, taught there for six years. That's right, yeah. So that was really cool.

26:05

So yeah, I went there and I recognized in my first classes, hey, these teachers love

26:11

Jesus. They know a lot of things I don't know. Yeah. Now, why was that such a shock to you?

26:18

Was it because you were kind of like the most knowledgeable guy in your little circle? No, no. So no, it was because I grew up in a certain cultural space.

26:31

For me, I really didn't value education. In college, I did well, but I did the least amount possible to get the good grades because I love

26:43

Diane and my Bible studies and I didn't really care about academics and I didn't care about them going into seminary.

26:52

Right. Yeah, so I wasn't... Yeah, I mean, would people say I was a good student? I guess so.

26:58

Okay. I didn't care about that. You weren't the guy who was breaking dawn, like pouring over books like,

27:03

I gotta make sure I get this exactly right. I gotta get the A's. I gotta... No. You were like, C's get degrees, baby.

27:09

Yeah. Well, I actually did well, but what I do is I'd find out what's the minimum

27:15

I can do to get a good grade. And then, so yeah,

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I wasn't a great... Yeah, you're speaking my language. So yeah. Okay, so you get to seminary. But then

27:26

I love it. And then I want to study. Okay. And then I start doing well. And even my wife said, wow, you like to study.

27:34

And I'm like, yeah. I had that same experience, brother. I dropped out of high school, never finished, couldn't be paid to read a book or do anything.

27:43

When I get saved, I was a drug dealer.

27:49

I ran the streets. I couldn't really focus. And I remember trying to read a book and I couldn't really do it.

27:55

And my grandmother, who was a non -practicing Roman Catholic, who was a Narcotics Anonymous, she was just so happy that I was off drugs.

28:02

She bought me a book, Philip Yancey. You know who Philip Yancey is? Oh, yeah. The Jesus I Never Knew. Oh, yeah, yeah.

28:09

Theology, okay, we'll work on that. But the writing was fantastic. And she got it for me. I threw it in the closet.

28:15

We were going to move one day. I pulled it out and I opened it and it blew me away. I just,

28:21

I mean, it completely blew me away. And from that day on, I've just loved to study. So it really was like, oh,

28:27

I just needed to find the thing that I care about. Now that I see Jesus and people can teach me more about Jesus, I'll read a thousand books, just put them all in front of me.

28:35

And it sounds like that's what you went through. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so what was the most formative thing about seminary for you?

28:43

It could be a book. It could be a class. It could be a professor. Yeah, yeah, I'd say it was the theology of sanctification.

28:51

Okay, undoing some of that Keswick stuff, yeah. You know, let go, let God, you'll almost live a perfect life.

28:58

And the Reformed view of sanctification, that it's a process that we grow slowly, that even to the day we die, we struggle with sin.

29:09

I'm like, that makes sense. That makes sense in my experience. That makes sense of the

29:16

Bible. I was going to a Bible church at the time, and the pastor was a

29:21

Keswick person. He was a godly guy, but I was getting older. And I began to see, hey, he has faults, you know, just like I do.

29:32

Right. You know, but when you're young, you look up to these pastors, and you just think, like, they're basically perfect.

29:38

Yeah, yeah. And then I realized, he claims to have let go and let God and live a certain way, but he's not as good as he thinks he is.

29:48

That's right. And actually, that encouraged me. I didn't think, oh, he's a bad guy. Sure. I thought, oh, he's just like me.

29:56

I saw that. So I think that was the biggest impact. And then the other thing is just learning theology, church history, the languages.

30:07

I mean, I just love the Bible. So to me, seminary was like a retreat.

30:13

Oh, wow. I loved it. I loved the classes. I loved almost every class, and I was still working with youth.

30:22

So I'd turn around and simplify it. Yes. And what I was learning, I'd teach to the kids. So when

30:27

I took apologetics, I taught it to the kids. And I was, you know, and, you know,

30:33

I think the kids, we were in a good church. The kids liked it. I mean, not all the kids, right? The kids liked it.

30:39

The pagan ones didn't like it. The pagan ones didn't like it. But even the pagan kids were nice, you know. And I think they liked it because I was excited about it.

30:50

And plus, we were invested in their lives. We went on retreats with them. We did fun things with them, hung out with them.

30:57

And Diane and I did everything together. And we didn't have kids for seven years. Oh, wow. So we did everything together.

31:04

Yeah. And so what happens after seminary? So while in the middle of seminary,

31:09

I think, I want to be a pastor, right? That's what I think. But I've only worked with youth.

31:17

I've been in big churches of about a thousand. Honestly, neither of the senior pastors did

31:24

I ever meet with individually and personally. I had no idea what pastors did. And, you know,

31:29

I'm coming out of Catholicism. I don't really know churches. I don't know Protestantism. All I know is being in youth groups, right?

31:37

So I'm naive. I'm young. I ask one pastor, hey, what do you do with your time? I mean, this is really kind of dumb, right?

31:45

Because I should ask lots of pastors. I ask one, and he says, hey, I mainly do administration.

31:52

And I think, oh, I'd hate that. Oh, no. You know, if I had a

31:57

Mark Dever around or something. But no, this guy tells me I mainly do administration. And I think,

32:03

I want to teach the Bible. I don't want to do administration. So I'm doing well in school. So I start thinking, well,

32:10

I want to be a teacher then. I don't want to do it. I don't want to be an administrator. So, you know,

32:17

I'm doing well. I get an MDiv, a THM, and I say to my wife,

32:24

I think I should get a PhD. So I said, first of all, I'm only 26. And I think I'm too young to be a pastor.

32:31

I don't, I feel like I don't know enough, which is true. I didn't know enough. So I go off to Fuller Seminary in Pasadena to do a

32:39

PhD. What made you choose Fuller? So I applied at Nottingham in England. I got in, but it was 1980, economically a really difficult time.

32:48

Thatcher and Reagan were coming into power. We didn't have any money and I couldn't do it financially.

32:54

I applied to Duke, didn't get in. And I applied to Fuller, three places.

33:00

Got into Fuller. Fuller was to the left of me, but, you know, broadly evangelical.

33:07

It was on the West Coast. I love the West Coast. So yeah, that's where I ended up.

33:13

How was your time there? It was great. Don Hagner was my supervisor in New Testament.

33:21

But Fuller was marked by that time. And it's changed since then even, but by a belief that the

33:29

Bible had errors, which I was not taught before, and egalitarianism.

33:35

So when I went to Fuller... Sorry, real quick, brother. Where are you in relation to Piper and his time at Fuller? Was he before you?

33:41

Was he after you, do you know? Yeah, Piper. So John's almost 10 years older than me. So John, I went to Fuller in 1980.

33:50

In 1980, John started pastoring at Bethlehem. So he'd been at Bethel College starting 1974.

33:59

So he already had a PhD by 74. By 80, he was starting to pastor. And I was going to Fuller in 1980.

34:07

Then I'd never heard of him, but I heard of him when I went to Fuller. Because Dan Fuller taught there, and Dan had disciples.

34:18

Yeah, and he was the guy who kind of transformed Piper, gave him the Edwardsian vision and all that, yeah.

34:23

But I never took a class with Dan. Because, you know, Christian hedonism was talked about on campus, and students would tell me, we're learning in class that we should be selfish.

34:37

That's awesome. And I'm like... Like, nah, I'm good. I'm thinking Fuller's weird enough. I don't need to take a professor who's teaching we should be selfish.

34:47

Which is a caricature of his view, but I just avoided him. But Fuller was a big struggle for me.

34:54

Because I was around these people who said, yeah, the Bible is authoritative, but it's flawed.

35:03

And for the first time, I had doubts. Maybe there's errors in the Bible. So that...

35:10

And then for the first time, I'm not really doing ministry in a church. You know? So I'd always, always been involved in the life of the church.

35:18

But I'm going to this church, and I'm just studying. And then second thing is, everybody's an...

35:25

Yeah, it's an exaggeration. But almost everybody's an egalitarian. So I just struggled, but especially with inerrancy and egalitarianism.

35:36

Am I wrong? So I read, you know, to do the latter thing first, because it's quicker. I read a lot of things on egalitarianism.

35:43

Okay. I'm like, maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, right. And then I was in a context, I hope

35:48

I'm wrong. I want to be an egalitarian. Oh, yeah. Because I want to fit in. I like to fit in, you know,

35:54

I'm a man pleaser, a people pleaser. Everybody around me holds this view. But I'm reading it and I'm like, nope.

36:02

Yeah. This does not work. I'm reading the arguments that I'm thinking, these are not convincing to me.

36:09

So that, you know, that set a trajectory for my whole life, even what I've worked on since.

36:15

But then secondly, I struggled longer with whether the

36:21

Bible was flawed. But what helped me, you know, three or four things.

36:27

I read Carl Henry. Okay. His fourth volume. I never read all six. But the fourth one,

36:33

I forget the name of it now. That helped me believe in inerrancy. And then at the time, you know, we'd never met, but Don Carson was writing reviews of books on scripture.

36:45

Okay. And I'd read Don and I'd think, Don's right. Yeah. And so that helped me.

36:52

And then one of the guys who had discipled me in my church in Salem, he was a student at Stanford in philosophy.

37:02

He was brilliant. He ended up ministering at a study center at the University of Oregon.

37:08

I think he's retired now. Jack Crabtree was his name. But, you know, he gave talks about inerrancy and they were super helpful to me.

37:19

But then the last thing that was helpful to me is I compared the lives. You know,

37:25

I don't want to take this too far. I compared the lives of my youth pastor, the people who had mentored me, and the lives of the people at Fuller, their love for Jesus, their desire to evangelize, and I saw a difference.

37:40

Well, that's biblical. Consider the outcome of... What's that scripture? Yeah, by their fruits you shall know them.

37:46

Yeah. That verse. And I thought, look at these. My youth pastor, the people who discipled me, they had a love for Christ and his word.

38:00

Nobody's perfect, right? But they were different. Sorry, brother, I found it.

38:05

Hebrews 13, 7. Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

38:14

Right? So you're just doing what the Bible says to do. Like, okay, I have these different leaders. I'm going to examine their lives. Who has more fruit?

38:20

Whose life do I want my life to be like? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, and that really strengthened me.

38:27

I thought, yeah, this accords with scripture too. Good intellectual arguments from Henry, Carson, my friend, but then seeing the lives.

38:35

Yeah. And, you know, some strange things were happening at Fuller, which I won't recount here, but just things

38:42

I saw in people's lives. You know, some of these people, I think they grew up as fundamentalists. I didn't have that background.

38:49

You know, even as a Catholic, I didn't have that rigid kind of training. So I recognize it's kind of hard maybe if you grew up real strict like that.

38:58

Yeah. But it was like, I could see these people, some of them, they're just reacting.

39:04

Right. Maybe understandably in part. So there were some wonderful Christians at Fuller. I don't want to deny that.

39:10

Sure. But what did you do your PhD in? I did it in New Testament, and I did it on circumcision.

39:18

So my mom, you know, it's so funny because my mom's like, are you going to hospitals? And I'm like, mom, I'm weird, but I'm not that weird.

39:26

Can I observe, please, what you're about to do here? You know, because I was looking at my title, it's a nerdy title,

39:34

Circumcision and Entree into the Newness of Paul's Gospel. So I was asking the question, why, basically, why does

39:42

Paul think we're not under the law? Yeah. So I use circumcision as a vehicle to look at that question.

39:48

Yeah. And she's worried that you're going to the hospital. Back to your mom, did your parents ever come to know the

39:55

Lord? You know, not that I know of. I mean, maybe, you know, when I, you know,

40:01

I wrote a long letter to my dad because we were away when he got cancer. And I explained the gospel to him in more detail because he'd get kind of mad in person.

40:10

Right. And I heard he cried when he read it. And, you know, so I'm not sure.

40:16

Okay. My uncle, who is very smart, my uncle told him that my letter was wrong because I said, we're saved by faith.

40:24

So I don't know what he ended up believing. You know, I just entrust him to God. My mom, same, kind of same.

40:30

Yeah. You know, my mom, I had more opportunities to share with. My mom would always say when

40:36

I'd share the gospel, well, we have to do something, don't we? And I said, well, I always felt like they're kind of cobwebs between us.

40:44

You know, she was so, so gentle, so kind. So, yeah, some of my family members are saved.

40:51

I think some aren't. Like your siblings? Yeah, yeah. Some are, some aren't. Yeah. So, yeah.

40:56

Okay. So you finish your, you come out of Fuller, spiritually intact, probably stronger for having worked through some of that stuff.

41:06

And then what do you do? So then I say, we're married and then, you know, we're 29 now.

41:13

So, you know, I'd been, since high school, I'd been to 11 straight years of school. You are a professional student.

41:19

I'm a professional student. Don's dad never finished high school. And I remember him asking me at one point, are you ever going to?

41:26

Are you ever going to work? Yeah. I think he thinks I'm just using his daughter. Fortunately, he lived long enough to see me work for a while.

41:34

But yeah, I'm finishing and I think, oh, we have a child now.

41:40

Daniel's one. Oh, I'd like to be a, yeah, I'd like to be a pastor. I'd like to teach. So I said to Diana, I need a job.

41:47

Yeah. So whatever comes first, if I get offered to be a pastor, I'll do that. If I get offered to teach,

41:53

I'll do that. So we wait. I'm not getting any offers.

41:58

So one of the things is every time we moved, we changed churches. Okay, right. Because I wasn't denominationally tied.

42:04

After I'd been a Catholic, I'm like, well, whatever church teaches the Bible. So I'd been Conservative Baptist, Bible Church, Covenant.

42:11

I had no links with anybody. Yeah, right. Right. So it was hard.

42:17

And then I'd talk to churches and they'd be like, oh, you have a PhD. You've worked with youth.

42:23

That's it. Right. Mainly on the phone. Here I am in Southern California.

42:28

It'd be like, oh, yeah, no thanks. So, yeah, I didn't, I think

42:34

I only had one in -person interview. Well, I ended up getting a job at Azusa Pacific. The university.

42:39

Yeah. Which is interesting because it's basically more to the right, but kind of a little fuller.

42:47

More to the, more conservative, but most of the professors in the Bible department believe they're heirs in the

42:53

Bible. And they're all Arminians and they're mainly egalitarian. Wow. Except for Bill Mounce. Except for Bill Mounce.

42:58

Bill Mounce was there and Bill and I became great friends. And you didn't feel any kind of weirdness about going back into that environment?

43:05

Because you're grounded. I want a job. That's basically it. Yeah. You're like, I don't feel weird about getting paid money.

43:12

And they interviewed me and they were nice. And honestly, you know, I think they hired me because they were desperate because it was

43:19

August and they needed a professor. And they even told me, hey, we might replace you in a year because I told them

43:26

I was reformed. And I believed in inerrancy and yeah. But they were super nice and gracious.

43:33

And I had a great three years there, but I knew it couldn't be a permanent home for me. And I really enjoyed it.

43:41

And, you know, the Lord used that and the next place I was Bethel and Fuller to help me understand, hey, there are

43:51

Christians out there who are very different from me. You know, I may disagree with them even significantly, but they love the

44:01

Lord. I may even think their teachings are defective and have bad consequences.

44:07

But so that was good for me because I came out coming out of Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, which was a great experience.

44:16

I think I just was a little bit in my bubble. And I think the Lord has used that in my life to help me be more loving towards other believers.

44:28

That's right. You're not talking about out and out heretics. You know, we're talking about Christians with whom you disagree on secondary matters.

44:34

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there are Christians, understand me, you can push back on this.

44:40

I think there are people who are Christians who think there are errors in the Bible. Now, that's a dangerous teaching, right?

44:46

It's very dangerous. But, and for one of my professors at Fuller, I saw him many years later.

44:52

I just don't want to say the name, but he said to me, man, Fuller is becoming so postmodern.

44:58

He said to me many years later, and I'm like, you're surprised? Yeah, like you took away the sole ground of authority for the

45:04

Christian. Yeah, it's not going to stay where you were. You were relatively conservative, but hey, it's going to drift.

45:11

That is an interesting phenomenon. You find people who come from bedrock conservatism, and they get loosey -goosey on things, but they hold the tension really well, and then they're shocked when the generation after them, that wasn't ground, they're grounded in the loosey -goosey stuff that you're doing, not in the bedrock conservatism, and then they lose it.

45:31

Exactly. And this has happened again and again in church history, right?

45:36

I mean, we can just go through all the American universities, Harvard, Yale, Southern Baptist Colleges.

45:42

It's happened many times. Almost Southern. Almost Southern. Yeah, it was kind. Okay, so you teach there for three years, and still not a pastor.

45:52

Well, I'm an associate pastor in the church, so part -time, but it's a church plant, and I'm preaching once a month.

46:01

I teach Sunday school. I'm really involved in the church. It's a small church. I'm one of the elders. I love it.

46:07

Having a great time. Yeah, so I'm back being involved in the church in a significant way.

46:14

Now, are you at this time thinking, is there any kind of, what am I going to do? Am I going to teach?

46:21

Am I going to preach? Am I going to do both? Was there a wrestle within you? No, no, no, no. I was going to teach.

46:26

Okay, so then you leave Asusa because? Well, I got, so my dear friend for many years,

46:33

Bruce Ware, who teaches here, Bruce and I, we went to Western together. We did

46:38

PhDs at Fuller together, he in theology, me in New Testament. Bruce got a job at Bethel Seminary in St.

46:44

Paul, Minnesota, which is a Baptist general conference. Now they called it Converge, kind of Swedish Baptist in origin.

46:51

So Bruce gets a job there, and he tells Miller Derrickson, who's the dean, about me when they have a

47:00

New Testament opening. It's a seminary. It's Baptist, more conservative than Asusa.

47:08

Still, you know, kind of split between egalitarianism and complementarianism, split between Reformed and Arminian, but inerrantist, inerrantist.

47:18

So really, I interview and I get the job. 1986. The year

47:24

I was born. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, 1986 to 1997, I taught there.

47:32

Those were great years. At Bethel, you couldn't be on a pastoral staff.

47:38

Oh, no moonlighting. Well, you could do interims, but you couldn't be full -time on a staff.

47:45

So this is a true story. So John Piper, right? I heard about him.

47:51

He's pastoring in Minneapolis, right? So I heard about him at Fuller.

47:56

I'd read his Justification of God in Romans 9, so I know he's Reformed. And I hear while I'm at Asusa, or maybe even while I was at Fuller, I hear he's a complementarian.

48:10

I'm like, wow, John Piper went to Fuller and he's a complementarian. That's amazing.

48:18

So we're moving to Minnesota, and I said to Diane, John hasn't written any popular books yet, none.

48:25

He's in the process of writing Desiring God. So I say to Diane, hey, I've heard of this pastor, and he's an academic.

48:36

And I said, literally, he might be a bad preacher because he's an academic. And then we go to...

48:43

Listen, you're not wrong for saying that. No. You know, nine times out of 10, you might be the... Right, right, right. I said, he might be boring, you know.

48:49

But I said, let's go there. And then we go there. It is a church of about 1 ,000.

48:55

You just can't get away from those big churches, can you? Right, right, right. Except for our church plant. And I'm just blown away.

49:03

Right. The very first sermon. Like, can he preach?

49:08

Yeah. Wow. He can really preach. You joined Bethlehem, and you're working at Bethel, and then you're there for 10 years?

49:18

11. 11 years. How was your time there? It was great. I really enjoyed it.

49:23

Bethel, you know, was a diverse environment. I mean, Bruce Ware left after one year. That was hard.

49:29

How come? Well, he got an offer at Western Seminary, where we both went. And he wanted to go back. He's a

49:34

West Coaster from Spokane. I guess not coast, but from the West. So he goes back.

49:41

But still, yeah, taught with a lot of great guys. Gary Smith, Dan Block, Bob Stein.

49:49

So yeah, I had a great time. What was more formative for you, your time at the seminary or your time at Bethlehem?

49:56

At Bethlehem. Yeah. Can you elaborate? I mean, Piper had a huge influence on me because I saw, you know, in a way,

50:05

I had slowly drifted to the idea, this is terrible, but churches aren't good.

50:11

Oh, say more. Churches aren't good. You don't really learn the

50:16

Bible there, but in school, seminary, college, there we can talk about the

50:22

Bible. And then I saw, you know, at Bethlehem, wow, here's what can happen in a church.

50:31

Here's a guy, he preaches the Bible with power.

50:37

And, you know, I think to me, the thing, the greatest influence

50:44

John had on me is he lives it. We're all flawed.

50:50

I always say that about all of us, right? But he, this isn't, he's not just a talking head.

50:57

I, you know, I got to know John. He lived at downtown Minneapolis. He's sincere.

51:05

He's passionate. His preaching is coming out of his life and the church is being shaped and changed.

51:15

And that inspired me in the church and at the seminary. And then I, that's when

51:20

I almost became a pastor. I almost left in the late eighties, or early nineties for a church.

51:27

I interviewed a guy at the airport for a church in Puyallup, Washington. I used to live down,

51:32

I lived in Federal Way. Did you? I was stationed at Fort Lewis. Oh, wow. Wow. So you're thinking about West Coast stuff.

51:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When my, well, my oldest son right now is in Everett, Washington pastoring.

51:45

But anyway, you know, it's, I'm not really a mystical person, but I left that interview.

51:54

Nothing that was said was bad. I knew I should say no. Just like you knew you were going to be in the ministry.

52:01

Yeah. I just knew. I just came home to Diane and I said, it's over.

52:07

I'm not going to do it. So I kept teaching, being at Bethel, enjoying it, loving

52:14

Bethlehem. In 94, just great years at Bethlehem shaped me so much.

52:25

Loved the church. I taught a Sunday school class regularly at the church. We had a big controversy in 94.

52:32

I mean, that's a whole different conversation. You could talk to John about it someday, maybe. Hey, I need your help.

52:38

He's turned me down. I've asked three times. I need somebody's help. Well, I'll try.

52:45

John's his own guy. Right. But, you know, we had a big controversy. If I cried, would it work?

52:51

Yeah. If I sent him a video where I'm just like weeping. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Try it, try it. So, yeah, so that,

53:01

I was the chairman. I ended up being the chairman of the elders. That was a super hard time. We lost 200 or 300 people.

53:07

But that was also good for me because people I loved, leaving the church, it helped.

53:16

I almost thought Bethlehem was perfect. And I said, okay, we're not perfect. But I still think most of the people who left the church shouldn't have left.

53:27

But I don't, it was a controversial issue. And we don't need to go into that.

53:33

But that shaped me in a lot of good ways. Meanwhile, Bethel, I love being there.

53:39

But Bethel is becoming more egalitarian, more Arminian, more,

53:47

I'd just say politically correct, and dumbing down the curriculum. So I'm like, they treated me great.

53:57

Always, you know, always, always. Because I'm starting to be, you know, the most conservative guy around.

54:03

But they still treated me wonderfully. But then I start hearing what's happening at Southern. And Dan Block left to teach at Southern.

54:10

And in 1995, Dan Block says to me, when he's going to Southern, in two years, you'll be at Southern.

54:17

And I said to him. A prophecy. I said, Dan, I'll never be a Southern Baptist. Because to me,

54:24

I had this view of the South and Southern Baptists, you know, being from the

54:29

North. Oh, classic West Coast guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was just, no, never.

54:35

And plus, they just hired this 33 -year -old president. And when we first heard it, we thought, they're going a little crazy down there.

54:45

Like, what? But Dan went there. And then I started hearing what was happening down here.

54:53

And I'm getting discouraged. And I write Dan one day in the fall of 96. And I said, hey, is there any openings?

55:02

And yeah, one thing led to another. And yeah, I came to Southern in the fall of 1997.

55:11

When you were teaching at Bethel, and all that stuff was happening, things were getting worse. Are you the guy who's like raising his hand in meetings and pushing back and sending memos?

55:21

Are you trying to prevent that at all? Or are you kind of like, I'm just going to keep my head down and teach my classes and do what

55:28

I can with what I got? Yeah, well, yeah, I just taught what I teach in the classroom.

55:34

So you didn't in any way try to like reform the seminary or do anything like that? No, no. I mean, students, you know, students would come to me and we'd talk.

55:43

I had freedom to teach what I wanted in the classes. You know, sometimes, you know, several times

55:50

I'd hear in faculty meetings, they'd say, women, there are women who are discouraged in our classes.

55:57

And I would just say, then, are you talking about me? I mean, because I don't like under the table things.

56:03

Yes. And they don't say, no, no, no, no, Tom, we're not talking about you. And I'd be like, okay, okay.

56:11

Just checking. Yeah, exactly. I just want to know, can I keep doing what

56:16

I'm doing? So no, you know, would I talk to other faculty members about it?

56:22

Yes, sometimes. But the other faculty, I'm not going to persuade them. But they would talk to me about it occasionally.

56:29

I did a discussion debate with another faculty member on Calvinism. He was super friendly. I mean, it's

56:36

Minnesota nice. Right. And they were nice. Don't you know? Yeah. And that was kind of the Baptist General Conference feel, kind of the

56:43

Swedish Baptists. And it's a real strength. They're nice. A key word up there is ironic.

56:50

Very ironic. I have that word in my notes for a question to ask you later. Okay. Okay. So, yeah.

56:58

So that was cool. So you've been at Southern almost 30 years? Yep. 28th year.

57:04

And what has it been like, brother? Well, it's been awesome. You know, when I first got here, I'd be like, oh,

57:11

I'd almost want to get down and kiss the ground. Yeah. Because I was like, this place is fabulous. Yeah.

57:16

This place. So in a way, you know, I was at Fuller three years, Azusa three years,

57:22

Bethel 11 years. Great. But now when I'm in a place, my theology, this is the theology here.

57:30

Yeah. I'm kind of home. Yeah. I'm reformed. I'm complementarian. I'm an anarchist.

57:36

I'm a conservative. And then, you know, then kind of the young restless and reform movement takes off when

57:42

I'm first here. Which partly, you know, you look back, okay, some of the guys probably were like, yeah, that's not what my parents believe.

57:52

So this is really cool. Yeah, right. But still, it was a very exciting time.

57:58

And I think the Lord was working. I think, you know, John, John Piper, you know, his influence down here is massive.

58:07

And he was becoming famous everywhere, which wasn't really true when I was at the church. Right. Right. Yes.

58:12

He wasn't yet well known. And so the reform movement is just going and, you know,

58:18

T4G, TGC. Yeah. So it's all together.

58:23

And then our students, our students are so wonderful. They love God's word. They want to serve him.

58:30

And then also I started pastoring a church. Clifton. Yeah. Well, I started a church plant called

58:35

Trinity Baptist. It started in 96. But the first pastor had an affair.

58:42

So I became the preaching pastor in 98. Always the idea was eventually

58:49

I'd step aside, you know, for a full time pastor. But I ended up doing it through, we merged with Clifton in 2001, we had a merger.

58:58

But I ended up preaching through 2015. And I'm still an elder. And so that's been awesome, doing both, being very involved in the church, because I've always loved the church and teaching at the same time.

59:11

I mean, it's been the greatest blessing in my life. God is so good. I, you know,

59:16

I can't believe I've been able to do what I do. And not that we haven't gone through some hard times, of course.

59:23

You know, this is not a perfect place. Our church isn't perfect. Yeah. It's great.

59:28

What an amazing story of God's grace, brother. That's incredible to be able to look back on all that and see his hand in it all.

59:35

All right. I have some a little more medium rapid fire questions. How many books have you written? Yeah, I don't know.

59:42

I've never counted. No, stop. I haven't. General Ballpark, 30? I don't know.

59:48

That's a good question. Yeah, I don't know. It's something like that. Maybe 20, 30, maybe.

59:54

I don't know. Which was the most enjoyable book to write? Yeah, I'd say my favorite book to write is

01:00:02

The King and His Beauty. Why? Because I got to write about the whole Bible. That's your systematic theology.

01:00:09

Well, now it's a biblical theology. Your biblical theology. Yeah, I kind of put the Bible together. And yeah, and I'd love to write second my book on Paul.

01:00:17

Okay. Because doing, I guess I like doing when I'm putting it all together. I mean, I like them all.

01:00:22

You know, when I wrote my New Testament theology, I'd love that. But I had to read so many other things.

01:00:28

And I learned so much from all the others. But that's exhausting. And sometimes

01:00:33

I have to read things I really don't like. When you do stuff like that, do you take sabbaticals to write those books?

01:00:41

Or do you just work on your free time? Both. But the sabbatical system here is awesome. I'm on sabbatical right now.

01:00:47

Really? Praise the Lord. What is it like every couple of years? You get a couple months? Every three years, you get a semester.

01:00:53

Okay. Or six years, you get a year. But I always do the three -year semester. Yeah. And then you have to actually be working on something.

01:01:00

Yeah. Yeah. Working on a book. Okay. What was the most powerful insight that you learned while writing

01:01:08

The King in His Glory? You know, honestly,

01:01:16

I couldn't say. Okay. It wasn't that I had one insight. It's just,

01:01:22

I suppose I could say just the overall plan of God, the story of redemption is so beautiful and lovely.

01:01:33

Yeah. And entrancing, I'd say. It's the story, I forget who said this, the story that even if you don't believe it's true, you want it to be true.

01:01:42

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, what other story is there where you have to cross, you win by losing?

01:01:50

Right. You conquer by suffering. You live by dying. Yeah. I mean, it's upside down story.

01:01:56

Yeah. It's an amazing story. And it's true. And it's true. What is a book that you've written that you wish more people would read, but it hasn't really done as well or made the rounds as much?

01:02:10

Yeah. Maybe The Race Set Before Us, which - Okay. Which I've read. It's very good. Ardell Kennedy and I wrote it.

01:02:16

It's a little more scholarly. I have a more popular version, Run to Win the Prize. Oh, that's the version I read.

01:02:21

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's fine. I mean, I know a scholarly book.

01:02:27

Yeah. They're not going to be read as much. What book do you think when you get to heaven will be the one where you see like, yeah, that's the one that bore the most fruit from what you can tell from a human perspective?

01:02:39

Yeah, that's hard to say. I mean, King and His Beauty and Romans have been, have sold -

01:02:45

The Romans commentary. Yeah, my Romans commentary. Which I'm using right now as I'm preaching through Romans. Yeah. Very good. Oh, that's great.

01:02:50

Preaching through Romans. Awesome. Yeah, probably those two have sold the most, so maybe those.

01:02:56

Okay. What book was really difficult to write? My New Testament Theology.

01:03:02

Yeah. And I loved it, but also read, so Baker mentioned to me revising it, and I'm 70, and I was,

01:03:12

I mean, they asked me a couple of years ago, but I said no, because I don't, I don't have the energy, because what

01:03:18

I did in that book, you don't have to write a New Testament theology this way, but I read tons of other people, and I learned so much, but I just don't want to do that again.

01:03:26

Yeah. What have been, what's one blessing and one challenge of working in a seminary context?

01:03:35

Yeah, well, I think the blessing is, I mean, two blessings, the colleagues.

01:03:41

You know, I love being here, working with fellow colleagues.

01:03:48

We're all pushing, generally, substantially in the same direction.

01:03:54

So, and then the students. The students are my greatest encouragement. I mean, they're, they love

01:04:01

Jesus. They want to be missionaries. They want to be pastors. They want to be counselors.

01:04:07

They want to be educators. They love God's Word. That's, that's been fantastic.

01:04:14

What's the challenge? I mean, in any human organization, right, there's tensions.

01:04:20

There's, wherever you are, it's not, I don't think it'd be different anywhere else.

01:04:26

There are, you know, we've had some disagreements over the years. It hasn't been perfect.

01:04:31

I think it's been good. Yeah. So, there's always those kind of challenges. Jonathan Lehman literally just now texted me, because I texted him this morning, and he's been a big influence on me.

01:04:43

And he says, you've been a big influence on him. And between him,

01:04:48

Alex Duke, who wanted me to tell you that he won an argument about Rob Bell with you. I have no idea what

01:04:55

Alex is talking about. He said he was at your dinner, at your dinner table in your house, and he won an argument against you about Rob Bell, and he wants you to know that.

01:05:04

But they both bring up that you are not afraid to change your mind.

01:05:10

Jonathan said, how many times have you changed your mind about Romans 7? Too many. Right. You've changed your mind about the millennium, and eschatological questions.

01:05:19

You've changed your mind about the gifts, continuationism versus cessationism.

01:05:24

Do you think that communicates weakness in you as a theologian or strength? Yeah, I'd say both.

01:05:31

Okay. You know, every strength is a weakness. So yeah, it's a weakness.

01:05:37

You know, it's the best thing is to know the truth well enough not to have to change your mind, right?

01:05:46

In heaven, we won't. That's ideal, right. Yeah, we won't change our mind. So, and it's a weakness that I haven't seen everything clearly.

01:05:58

But it's also, I promised myself when I first started writing, by God's grace,

01:06:05

I said, look, just because I write something and teach something, Lord, keep me from being so proud that I won't admit that maybe

01:06:16

I'm wrong on this, what I've been saying. Lord, keep me humble before your word.

01:06:25

Yeah, that's right. So, obviously, you know, when you change your mind a lot on a particular issue,

01:06:31

I would say in Romans 7, in the millennium, what's the other thing? Continuationism gives you.

01:06:37

Maybe I'm wrong now, right? I don't think so. But when you go back and forth on an issue, you've got to admit.

01:06:50

Well, I think it's probably not difficult for people to change their mind once. Anybody can be like, yeah,

01:06:56

I missed that. Not anybody, but a lot of people can be like, oh, I missed that. I think what is truly a testament to what

01:07:03

I think is your humility, brother, is the ability to go, no, actually, I think I had it right the first.

01:07:09

That's the hard to say. It's the flip flop. That's when people really start to judge you. And that's where you really just have to like say, yeah, but I got to give an account to the

01:07:17

Lord. You know, I don't really care what people think about me. I just got to do what I think is true. Right, right. But that's why

01:07:23

I say to the students, when we talk about the millennium, I said, well, you're probably not going to trust me. Now, I've heard you've become something called a new creational millennial.

01:07:32

Yeah, yeah. Never heard of that before? You just out here inventing things? Yeah, just making things up.

01:07:39

Yeah, I mean, it's in my Revelation commentary. A good place to find it is,

01:07:47

I think you can Google it and find it, is Eckhart Schnabel, who's taught for many years at Gordon and Trinity.

01:07:54

He has an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society briefly describing this view.

01:08:00

It's an academic article, but... Give it to us. You're really good at synthesizing and dumbing down.

01:08:06

Give it to us in like two to three minutes. Oh, that's so hard. But the way to say it is the millennium, when the millennium dawns, we're in the new creation.

01:08:16

Therefore, if you have to know about these issues to understand what I'm about to say, therefore, there are no unglorified saints in the millennium.

01:08:27

The millennium, Satan is completely bound, agree with the pre -mill there, and the first resurrection is physical.

01:08:35

So in that sense, I'm pre -mill, but there's no unglorified saints. In that sense, I disagree with the historical pre -mill.

01:08:43

There's no special place for Israel. In that sense, I disagree with the dispensationalist. That's a lot to check on the chessboard.

01:08:51

And I agree with all millennialists and Greg Beal, Isaiah 65, there's no literal death in the millennium and the new creation.

01:08:58

So it's kind of a via media between pre -mill and amill, which is why

01:09:04

I like it. Because, you know, I've kind of gone back and forth between pre -mill and amill. Yeah, and I do the same thing.

01:09:10

And it's right down the middle. It's the sweet spot. That's so funny.

01:09:17

Brother, your like five minute explainer video, I don't remember if it was Southern Seminary that put it out or something, where you just walk through the different views of the millennium, and you just do it succinctly and clearly and ironically.

01:09:32

And I've sent that video to 100 people. I still don't know what I think about the millennium. I'm basically historic pre -mill or amill, depending on how the wind blows me at any particular

01:09:43

Bible study. But that resource is fantastic. So for our viewers, if you want to know, like, what are the differences between these different eschatological views, look up Tom Schreiner explainer video,

01:09:55

I think. We might even put a link in the description. And in that one, I'm amill, but I've changed since then. You've changed since then. Okay, what is some advice that you would have for an aspiring theologian?

01:10:07

Theologian? Yeah, an aspiring theologian. Yeah, I'd say, obviously, immerse yourself in God's Word.

01:10:16

Read the best theologies, right? Read Bovink, read

01:10:22

Steve Willems, forthcoming. Volume one. Steve Willems.

01:10:28

Okay, yeah. Three volumes, systematic theology. Read the greats, read

01:10:33

Augustine, read Luther, read Calvin, read

01:10:39

Edwards. So that's so important. Don't ignore those who've gone before you.

01:10:46

And then if you can, find a mentor. If you're young, that you respect and trust, not just their mind, but their life.

01:10:58

To me, that last portion feels like the most important. Mark Dever says that he thinks these days, you should really, when you're thinking about where you're going to go study, you should think, who do

01:11:10

I want to study under? If I'm doing church history, go to Kevin Van Hoosier. Who cares what you study?

01:11:16

Just go study under Kevin Van Hoosier. Not Kevin Van Hoosier, Chad Van Dixhorn. There we go.

01:11:21

I got there. But find the guy that you like. I want this guy to teach me church history. And then let the winds blow where they may, kind of a thing.

01:11:29

Piper always said, and I think this is right, don't take classes, take teachers. Mm -hmm, yeah.

01:11:38

Let's talk about Irenic theology. Irenic, what does that word even mean? Irenic comes from the

01:11:44

Greek word, irene, which means being peaceful, peace -loving, gentle, kind.

01:11:52

So Jonathan Lehman told me that you taught him Irenic theology. Like he really learned it.

01:11:58

I mean, I think he was also discipled by Mark, and Mark does a pretty good job of being Catholic, like truly Catholic in spirit.

01:12:04

He said there was a sweetness to the Irenic theology that you practice.

01:12:11

You didn't sit him down and say, this is how you do Irenic theology. It's caught more than it's taught. And I've seen that from you, brother, publicly as I've been observing your ministry for,

01:12:20

I'd say, going on 20 years as I've been watching you from a distance. It seems like it's harder and harder to do that these days because of the cultural forces pressing in on us, which

01:12:34

I think means it's more important than ever to make sure that we continue to try to be Irenic. Do you have any thoughts about all that stuff

01:12:43

I just said? You know, how can we do it better? Why should we do it biblically? Yeah. Yeah, well,

01:12:50

I guess the first thing I'd say is we need to be firm on the gospel.

01:12:56

We do need to draw lines. We do need to call out false teaching.

01:13:03

So, there's a danger in Irenicism, and the danger is it can lead to liberalism.

01:13:13

So, you know, that's the first thing I'd say. But then, you know,

01:13:22

I guess I'd say within the boundaries, we have to be careful that we don't make our views on everything orthodoxy.

01:13:33

So, I always say to the students here, when I talk about reform thought, you know,

01:13:41

Arminians are orthodox. They're wrong. In my reading, right, their theology is defective, but it's within the circle of orthodoxy.

01:13:53

John Wesley was not a heretic. Right. Now, defective teachings, whatever they are, have bad consequences.

01:14:01

And so, being wrong is a serious matter. But we have to be careful that we just don't draw lines in terms of orthodoxy.

01:14:14

And then I think it's just mainly a spirit. Do we love other people?

01:14:21

Do we respect and honor other people? And honestly, that's where I'd say, again, it helped me to go to Fuller, be it

01:14:30

Azusa and Bethel, to rub shoulders daily with people that are different and to begin to recognize, yeah,

01:14:40

I think they're wrong on things, some things that are very important, but I think they are believers and to still love and honor them.

01:14:50

And of course, I mean, that's true even with someone who's an unbeliever and going to hell.

01:14:58

We still treat them in a way that's honoring, right?

01:15:05

I remember being in a small group. I was a tutor in a class at a seminary when

01:15:14

I was a student. It wasn't Fuller, but we were in a small group, and we had a female student from another seminary, and we were sharing what we were going to do in the future.

01:15:28

And she said she wanted to be a pastor. And one of the students just gave a visible sound of disgust.

01:15:35

But I was so embarrassed, like, I disagreed with that, but treat her with respect, you know?

01:15:42

She's a sister in Christ. Yeah, and she's a human being, and you don't...

01:15:47

She might be confused. You might be able to help her, but not after that. Yeah, and you don't treat somebody like that.

01:15:54

So, I think in a way, it's simple in one way. In another way, it's a spiritual matter, isn't it?

01:16:02

Walking in love. I don't always walk in love, right? So, we need to all have short accounts with God, confess our sins, love other people.

01:16:12

I mean, I pray every day, Lord, help me to love people, because I think my tendency is not to love people.

01:16:20

Yeah. Speaking of tendencies, I think seeing guys like you, guys like Mark, hold the line on the gospel, but do so in a truly

01:16:28

Catholic, loving, Irenic way has really helped me, because I'm bent towards second -level separationism, fundamentalism.

01:16:37

Not Machen's fundamentalism, like bad fundamentalism, to look down my nose at other people with whom

01:16:45

I disagree, to separate from them, to think that they're a danger to the gospel, and to feel really justified in that.

01:16:54

So, being able to see older brothers maintain that balance well has been really helpful.

01:17:00

So, brother, thank you for setting the example for so many young men in the ministry. I guess

01:17:05

I should say young women, too. Some of the feistiest people I have seen have actually been women.

01:17:11

Some of the people who want to go to the mat over stuff, who are willing to cut off relationships, they can actually be some of the ladies.

01:17:17

All right, last big question, and then we're going to get to what I think are the best questions. Those are really rapid fire.

01:17:25

What are you most concerned about in American evangelicalism at this moment? Yeah, I think almost every doctrine at some place is under attack.

01:17:39

So, I would just say generally maintaining the authority of Scripture and faithfully preaching and teaching it in our churches.

01:17:53

Because if we keep the authority of Scripture, the doctrines will work that out, because we're just going back to the

01:17:58

Bible. Right, exactly. Yeah. So, faithful pastors, I think it's, you know, so many of our churches need renewal to be a faithful pastor in a church, and that's awesome.

01:18:13

And maybe, maybe you won't see very much fruit, but I always say maybe you're preparing for the next pastor.

01:18:19

Oh, yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. And there's so many stories in church history of, you know, this guy didn't really think he had much of an impact.

01:18:25

But then think about your youth pastor. I mean, your youth pastor is one of the most significant figures in your testimony from the way

01:18:33

I heard it this morning. The most significant in my life, I would say. And he probably doesn't realize the impact that the

01:18:39

Lord has created with him and the way he loves you. Wow. Yeah, I never thanked him while I was alive the way

01:18:45

I should have. You'll get to in heaven. Yeah. Hey, let that be a lesson. Thank the person today.

01:18:51

You know, I hear stories like, yeah, my brother, when I was in college, he kept like trying to evangelize me when I was drunk in the dorm room.

01:18:57

And I'll be like, oh, have you ever like told your brother? Thank you. Oh, not as much as I should have. Yeah. Go tell him now.

01:19:03

You know? Okay, here we go. You ready for the hard question? I'm ready. Tea or coffee?

01:19:09

Tea. Favorite TV show? I don't really watch

01:19:14

TV. Okay. Favorite movie? Favorite movie. Don't do that either. Let's just say

01:19:20

Chariots of Fire. Okay. That's way back. That's way back. But it's a classic. You're trapped on an island.

01:19:26

You can only listen to the sermons of one of these men for the rest of your life. Who do you choose?

01:19:31

Dever, Piper, Keller, Sproul, MacArthur? Well, you know, I have to choose

01:19:37

Piper. Okay. Same question, but instead of sermons, books? With those five,

01:19:43

I'd say Keller. Interesting. We get a lot of Keller. Why do you say that? Yeah, I'd love...

01:19:50

I'm reading his book on forgiveness right now. I just love his focus on the gospel.

01:19:55

Yes. So nurturing. I'm listening to his encounters with Jesus right now.

01:20:00

I was listening to it on the walk over here, and I don't think he gets enough credit for being doggedly gospel -centered.

01:20:09

I mean, ruthlessly, everything comes back to the gospel constantly. And he applies it so well.

01:20:16

So well. So profoundly. Disagree with some of his philosophy of ministry stuff. You know, I think he's kind of like a reformed pragmatist in certain ways, but I mean, brother, it's so good.

01:20:25

Okay. Lewis or Tolkien? I'd say Lewis. Amen, brother.

01:20:32

Amen. Favorite novel? So I was an English major, right?

01:20:38

So I love the Brothers Karamazov. I love the Russian writers. Dostoevsky, but I have to say a close second is

01:20:44

Anna Karenina by Tolstoy. Okay. So I can't get into Dostoevsky. I've tried. Maybe I'm not smart enough.

01:20:49

Maybe you can help me. But I love Anna Karenina. I mean, it's just fantastic. And the

01:20:55

Christian in it, Levon, right? Everybody remembers Anna. But the story of Levon, it's awesome.

01:21:03

I need to go back and reread it. My favorite Tolstoy work is very often slept on, you know,

01:21:08

War and Peace, Anna Karenina, The Death of Ivan Ilyich. Yes. Yeah, that's fabulous.

01:21:14

So good. Those Russian writers, they're amazing. But I love Dickens too. I have to throw Dickens in. Really? I love

01:21:20

David Copperfield. But my favorite is Bleak House. That's a great book. I've read Hard Times.

01:21:26

I really liked Hard Times. But every time I tried it, his style is just kind of tough for me.

01:21:32

Not everybody. I think you either love Dickens or yeah. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Mountains or beach?

01:21:38

I'd say beach. Champagne or wine? Are you allowed to drink? Water. I'm at Southern Seminary.

01:21:45

Right, yeah. Least favorite candy? Well, I can't eat candy, but I hate licorice.

01:21:54

Black or red? I hate both. Oh, okay. Well, we'll accept hatred of black, but red licorice is really good.

01:22:00

My wife loves licorice. Okay, yeah. Favorite candy, even though you can't eat it, like if you could eat it.

01:22:07

Well, I'd love Snickers. Yeah, yeah. Android or iPhone?

01:22:14

iPhone. Macaroni salad or potato salad? Potato salad. Mayonnaise or mustard? Mayonnaise.

01:22:20

Right. If you have to eat one fancy French food, caviar? And actually,

01:22:26

I don't know if caviar is French, but it's probably Russian. But if you have to eat one of these fancy foods, caviar or escargot, which one are you going to do?

01:22:33

I have very little experience with this, but I'll go caviar. There you go. Night out or night in? Probably night in.

01:22:43

Concert or football game? Football game. Morning person or night owl? Used to be a night owl.

01:22:50

Now I'm a morning person. I'm old. Yeah, that's what happens. Yeah. Somebody, Tim Keller, once said that the nice thing about getting old is you just don't ever have to set an alarm anymore.

01:23:00

You know? You just get up to go pee and you're awake. Exactly. Burger King or McDonald's?

01:23:05

You have to choose. You can't say neither. I'm silly, but I'll say in the days I could eat,

01:23:11

McDonald's. Okay. Mexican or Italian? Mexican. Yeah. Did you know that all, did you know that all ants are females?

01:23:23

I've heard this. I've watched you. Dang it. Well, okay. Well, what about this then?

01:23:29

Did you know that I signed up for my company's 401k? I did not know that. Yeah, I backed out though. I thought

01:23:34

I can't run that far. Right? That one I haven't heard. Okay.

01:23:40

Burger or barbecue? Burger. Chinese takeout, like bad

01:23:46

Chinese takeout or sushi? Sushi. Okay. You'd be surprised how many people say

01:23:51

Chinese takeout. Oh, really? Yeah, it's like people who like Taco Bell. It's terrible, but you like it, you know?

01:23:57

Right, right. If you could only be cold or hot for the rest of your life? Hot. Hot, baby.

01:24:03

Rock or rap? Rock. Classical or jazz? Classical.

01:24:09

If you could, I can't believe I'm asking Tom Schrein this question. If you could only have a unibrow or no eyebrows for the rest of your life?

01:24:20

These are the questions we drove to Kentucky for. Uh, I think I'd go unibrow.

01:24:26

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Although you have light eyebrows and you wear glasses, you might be able to get away with not having them.

01:24:32

I'll try it. I'll try it. Thanks for the advice. Yes, that's right.

01:24:38

Okay. You're trapped on an island with only one systematic theology. Which one do you take?

01:24:44

Bovink? I think I'd take Calvin's Institutes. Okay. Why? Well, I love

01:24:51

Bovink too, but I think Calvin's Institutes is very pastorally warm. Yeah. What hymn would you want to be sung at your funeral?

01:25:01

What's the title? You know, we rest on thee, our shield and our defender. What hymn is that?

01:25:07

Is that the name? I'm just going to look it up. He's a, this guy's a hymn writer right here. And if he doesn't remember it, it must be a little bit older.

01:25:15

Is that the title? We rest on thee? He's Googling. He's Googling. Well, he's looking that up. Who would you want to preach your funeral?

01:25:24

Bruce Ware, if he's alive. Yeah. Okay. Let's say he's not. John Kimball, my pastor.

01:25:30

Nice. Your children, how many, four boys? Four, three boys and a girl.

01:25:36

Are they all walking with the Lord? They're all walking with the Lord. They're all in ministry, which we didn't emphasize, but so they are.

01:25:43

I mean, when I hear stories like that, I'm just like, brother, you could die tomorrow. Absolutely. You know, like what else is there to do?

01:25:48

Like your kids, they know Jesus. Everything else is just a gratuity after that. Yeah, absolutely. Wow.

01:25:58

Okay. Well, we'll have to look that one up. And this is probably the most important question of the whole interview.

01:26:04

How many holes does a straw have? One. Amen, brother.

01:26:09

I knew you were a sharp guy the second you walked in this door. You'd be shocked how many people say two.

01:26:15

How many people can be so wrong? Their theology is defective.

01:26:21

Their theology is defective. Yes. Well, brother, this has been a fantastic interview. And timing wise, we could not have done better.

01:26:27

We really nailed it. This turned out to be way different than I expected it to be, but I think it turned out to be way better.

01:26:35

Your story is an amazing testimony to God's grace. And let's close by me just asking the

01:26:40

Lord to continue to bless your ministry. Yeah. Lord, thank you so much for my brother

01:26:45

Tom, for older brothers in the Lord that we can look up to, even at a distance, and see what it looks like to follow you.

01:26:54

We pray that you'll bless him, Lord, as he continues to labor faithfully as a father and as a grandfather and as a husband and as a pastor and as a professor.

01:27:04

Lord, you've seen fit to give him tremendous influence. And we pray that you will keep him until the end, help him to walk in holiness, help him to love you more and to love his neighbor more with each passing day.

01:27:15

And we pray that as he continues to behold you in the word, that you will more and more shape him into the image of Christ into the day that you call him home.

01:27:26

Lord, we ask that you would bless this interview to the glory of your name, that you would use in a ways that we can't even begin to comprehend.

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We pray that you will raise up many more Tom Shriners in the days to come, by your grace and for the glory of your name.