Laborers' Podcast: Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Opening Announcements and Conference Promotion

Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are thankful that you're joining us tonight. Tonight. We're going to be discussing Baptism and the Lord's Supper. I can probably go ahead and tell you. This is going to be a part one.

Even at even if we have to do the part two after the laborers conference coming up at the end of April April 26 to the 28th and instead of playing our normal introduction We're gonna watch this video.

To look at the upcoming conference, please stick with us after the video. Hello, my name is Robert tonight, and I'm the founder of the truth and love Network. I Want to invite you and your family to join us in Knoxville, Tennessee on April the 26th through the 28th 2024.

The conference is free and the theme of the conference is the work of the Holy Spirit in the church. Please join us as we gather to preach and teach on this important topic.

Just trying to get the word out about our conference coming at the end of April Concerning the work of the Holy Spirit in the church. It's gonna be in Knoxville, Tennessee at Refrahmata Baptist Church.

It's gonna be very educational, but also this group of guys who loves to have fun. And so there'll be there'll be some good entertainment as well.

Hey guys, this is Tyler with the bread of the word podcast and I cannot wait to see everyone for the laborers conference this year.

Hey guys, it's Jay the reformed Puerto Rican dude from Providence perspective. I can't wait to see you all in real life. Hey y 'all. Jeremy Hull here, and I wanted to remind you to go to laborers conference comm and register for the conference today.

Dan self here. April 26th will be here before you know it. Be sure to make your plans today to be in Knoxville, Tennessee on April 26th through the 28th. The conference will be exciting and informative.

There will be two Q &A sessions and Rob Myself and the other guys will be happy to field and answer your questions to the best of our ability. See you then.

Hey, it's me Big John from real talk with Big John. I wanted to invite y 'all to the laborers conference this April. Hey guys, this is Keith Foskey with your Calvinist podcast If you love Jesus, you're gonna be in Knoxville, Tennessee April 26th through the 28th for the second annual laborers conference with the truth and love Network.

I hope to see you there.

Thank you Claude for that promo video. It's really nice. The comment line is open. We'd love to hear from you your questions comments critiques. We'll take it all. How you guys doing tonight?

Doing all right. Happy to be here. Makes me feel tall. Maybe the only time in life.

That video makes me feel like I'm skinny.

And I would take both of those on myself as well and appreciate it. Oh Let's jump into it because Time will pass by quickly as we as we go through this topic We want to talk about the the mode and means of baptism and the Lord suffer as much as possible tonight.

Most of my questions are about the the mode itself but we'll probably get into the the means and and probably some of the discussions that we have off the air amongst each other and We'll see how that goes because there are some differences among us but we all agree that Baptism is a command it comes from scripture.

There's no Question there's no argument that we as Christians practice baptism as a part of Following Christ, so that's that's clear. That's one. That's a place of agreement where we all can start. But why do you guys say that this is important of the how the mode?

Because that's I mean, that's really the main distinctive when it comes to the Baptist is The mode there's different stripes of Baptist but overarchingly Mode of baptism is kind of our distinctive. So how important do you think the how or the mode is when it comes to baptism?

The Mode of Baptism and Baptist Convictions

Boy, oh boy, let me just start by saying I once again don't fit into the majority of Baptists, I Would agree I would agree.

That.

Probably the proper Way of baptism would be immersion. But I just I have not personally worked out whether it might be acceptable to have alternatives, right? And that's probably my fault for not spending enough time Sort of looking into it.

I do believe the word baptizo Right in the Greek means to immerse and I get the argument the counter argument which says, okay Well, you don't baptize a table, right? We see in the Greek The word baptizo used for Things like tables and chairs and things like that, which implies a washing not necessarily immersion.

So, yeah, it's just not something that I Personally have worked my way through but if I'm going to be truthful to the text You know because I think about it like this, you know when you use the word baptizo in the Greek to talk about tables or Whatever it might be It's kind of like slant right?

It's it's that sense in which you might say. Oh I'm trying to think of a good example.

I.

Can't think of one but but the idea of like well, you know, I'm just gonna Immerse this real quick right. And everybody knows what they're what you're saying. You're saying you're gonna wash it. But that's not.

You're not literally going to immerse it. However, when it comes to the word baptizo being used as In the context of baptism, I don't see how they would be using it in a Symbolic sense. Does that make sense what I'm trying to say?

Like sometimes you can use words that mean something else and you kind of reinterpret or reapply what they mean. Even in our modern concept. I wish I could think of an example.

And.

They don't always mean that literally but the point is that when it comes to the mode of baptism I don't think that we're being told to baptize in a symbolic way as in just wash. I do think that it is an argument of like literally immerse.

So I Could be wrong, right? I'm and I admit that as a Baptist that makes me a bad Baptist and Maybe somebody can tell me, you know, if they have a different opinion or why they're convinced. Otherwise.

Well, that's probably on me, isn't it? Because the rest of you guys are Baptists.

And.

I will say that I am NOT dogmatic on the mode of baptism. I think if you look to the right night passages, you can make a case for all three. That with immersion you have as Jay just laid out with Baptiste so in this idea of of washing With pouring you have places like Romans 5 with he has poured the Holy Spirit into our hearts.

You have sprinkling which I think alludes to the Sprinkling of blood that we see in the Old Testament and is a picture of Christ's final sacrifice. I think you can make a case for all three of these and so I'm not necessarily dogmatic about one.

Because what makes baptism genuine is is faith. Mm-hmm is the is the what it actually signifies is it's not just getting wet but there's something deeper that transcends the amount of water we use and that's that I'm definitely opposed to the Presbyterians that may or may not have drowned Baptists in the Reformation era.

But that was probably not the way to handle this and I definitely think this was not something that should have split the church. And so while I'm personally convinced of a sprinkling model. Because of that sacrifice language and the idea that it paints for us a picture of the atonement of Christ.

That we have been made clean. I'm not you have to do it this way or you're wrong. This is this is a live-or-die thing. This is not a hill. I want to be dead on today.

Yeah, and and let me just say one thing I am NOT saying that it doesn't matter. You know if we've been instructed to do something we ought to do it the way that we were told to do it. All I'm saying is that we're not at least I'm not 100 clear on.

What exactly it is that we ought to do in this situation?

I.

Defer to men who are wiser than I am. And so I follow the 1689 and 1689 says it has to be immersion. So, you know, I I trust I trust these godly men who? You know who could be wrong. I'm not saying that they're infallible.

I'm not Roman Catholic, right? I'm not following them simply because I'm like, well, you know, it's what they say and so they are never wrong. They could be wrong. I just think they probably aren't right, so.

That that's how I see it. But again, you know, if somebody can convince me, otherwise, I'm I'm open to that. But Tyler you haven't done anything so far.

It is amazing to look over our well Relatively, it's a recent history but our history in the Christian faith in the church and tell you brought it up the I Mean that is that is a dogmatic stance that is a harsh test to take when you When you say hey, you believe in immersion, you're gonna stay there until you don't come up anywhere.

So you don't breathe All the water you want exactly and that's that's a serious Matter that's a serious stance to take. I mean, that's it but you can also see over over time how The hand has loosened the grip on that but also In a in a bad sense.

It's loosened the grip on the importance of theology and doctrine as well. So our our theology and doctrine has gotten loose but also in those areas of being dogmatic where we necessarily shouldn't. That has loosened up and that has been good.

I Pray that we're in this in a time in the church where God is steering us in the right direction. So we're seeking unity, but we have grace towards one another in seeking that unity.

Of course because millennialism is true. Absolutely, I'll talk about that and I'm sure that Unity believe. I believe that I Could be wrong on this but I believe as part as part of my post millennial Hope.

I do believe that the church will progressively develop greater unity, but that's a different topic and I was just making a joke.

Well, and I would agree with that too. And that would part of that would be theology.

Correct. What I'm trying to say a Rob is that before Jesus comes back. Everybody's gonna be reformed Baptist. That's what I'm trying to say.

Hey, you don't have any argument with me. Maybe Tyler but you don't have any argue with me there. Tyler didn't laugh.

I don't think he appreciated. So it was like so really.

What it means that modes look like in your church and explain why why you practice it that way? And so us us three in the middle and bottom probably similar and Tyler's are opposing in in at least in this area.

No, so you're gonna be similar with us then. Yes, because I go to a non-denominational church and we do baptize by immersion. Okay, I am in a church where not every single one of my preferences are satisfied and that's actually part of why I'm there.

Okay, and so my church Baptizes by immersion. My pastor came up in the Plymouth Brethren where they baptized forwards and backwards.

Oh.

What?

Right. So if I remember it, right, it's three times forwards and then one time backwards. What?

Hmm, that's like super immersion. Super. Let's make sure this guy got the Holy Spirit in him. You know what I'm saying? Like What a fourth time for good measure.

Yes, so we do a baptism by immersion that we. We don't apply church membership to the children of believers, but that's something that they are Expected to walk through when they become when they turn 18.

That their membership is kind of up in the air and so they're of the age to walk through that with the pastor themselves. And so oftentimes we end up baptizing 18 year olds. I'm sorry, I.

Was just I was just gonna say you bring up a good point there because it's I don't think that I added it in our questions, but you brought up the the idea of membership. Church membership and baptism is tied to membership in our churches.

So how explain that to us. How that's when church membership are.

Related. Yeah, so the idea of baptism is I think is a picture of. Well, it's an outward signifier of what Christ has done within a person that it is an outward Sign of what Christ has placed in a person when we talk about regeneration and we talk about circumcision of the heart that baptism is an outward Demonstration of this person has been sanctified of this of the heart.

I'm not saying circumcised. What I get saying this person has been circumcised of the heart. This person was one way and now is in Christ. And we are celebrating that today. We're declaring that and we are celebrating that and we are making an Making a commitment with this person to hold them accountable to come alongside them and to walk with them as they walk with Christ.

Church Membership, Regeneration, and Baptism

Elias, I think we know Tyler's answers the next question, but but could you could you attend a church like that and Not have all your preferences met. Could I could I have yeah, yeah, so. Could you be a member of good standing and and practice?

That has different practices than your convictions.

Well, yeah, like even though I do go to a Baptist Church, um, I would say I They they don't share like, you know as a church whole they wouldn't share same my convictions. Um, you know sticking with the topic where like, I don't think I Think I'm in the minority where my church I Believe that we're you know, my I have a different view of baptism in a Lord's Supper And different, you know Means of it right the meaning of baptism Lord.

So I have I have it. I'm in the minority of my church also. Yeah, and that's I think that's pretty much it. Oh eschatology wise as well I'm in the minority even my pastors and I know he is an on mill my pastor.

But I think majority is maybe Premillennial leaning dispensation on me, but I don't think yeah. So I thought your church was a reformed Baptist. I was a. All my elders are reformed, but I don't the church hasn't like officially said they were they were a foreign Baptist.

Yeah.

Yeah. Here's a practical question that that's not over there and I'd like for each of you to answer this. You may have the same answer which will be cool but All these issues baptism Lord suffered these other convictions as ecology that we talked about.

They're they're important. But I know I struggle with this when looking for a church, you know, I want to be In in this kind of church that has this and of course, it'd be great if they met all my preferences.

But what's that one or two things that you know, we can disagree on eschatology we can have slightly different understanding of the Lord suffer baptism, but that one or two things that they must have and I will I will attend this church faithfully and Wonderfully and and just and love being there.

What are those one or two things that are musts?

For me, it's sound preaching. That's one and two. Oh, what's. Godly elders. And what with God the elders. It comes with many things, you know. Biblical discipleship, you know, so yeah those two things.

I would look for.

Only two things.

That is hard.

If you can air down if.

Um, I think. Obviously holding to the essentials 100 like they need to be and I mean like not even shaky, you know, like I need solid essential. Which includes you know, the right gospel. You know the Trinity all that good stuff.

Penal substitutionary atonement. Yes, that is an essential for me. Some people say that's that's not one of the essentials of the faith. I'm like, yes it is. But but holding to the essentials and then the other thing this.

This one might I might let it slide depending. But I really really would have a hard time. Dispensational. I would not. I really really would have a hard time being in a dispensational church. Again not impossible.

But I think it would have to be like there's absolutely nothing else for me.

So referring to dispensationalism just just because of the the wide variety of definitions out there we going off of like the General view of the the narrative of Scripture the way they fit the Old and New Testament in the seven dispensations.

Come with the general idea there or like the extreme. You with. I'm sure. And well.

Even even like John MacArthur's two dispensations or three dispensations. Dispensationalism the leaky dispensationalism. I would really personally again. I'm not saying that. This is true for everybody.

I just personally I would really have a hard time.

But that's just me, okay, I was just curious given that I've Even just interacting with with Keith Foskey from the network as well that there's a few definitions and brands out there.

Yeah, there's there's a lot of variety of dispensationalism, but what it really falls Falls, you know what it what it boils down to is. You know you see Israel and the church as distinct and all of the implications that come out of that I would really have our time with.

That's really what it boils down to.

Okay, what about you Tyler.

For me it would probably be expository preaching that is to say just having somebody stand and for the church and break open the word and let the Bible just kind of speak for itself and the willingness to walk that out and let the Bible trickle down into.

The way we do things whether that is worship whether that is discipleship whether that is church discipline. That it's the application that flows out of expository preaching as well.

Another question wasn't really part of the topic. But it's really practically helpful for many people in the church. And and Jay I think your answer is good and honest because if you can't attend a church that's like that.

Then you will be you know divisive and not a good fit for that church. It for many different reasons and and I agree totally with you guys. You know sound expositional preaching the essentials, you know, by the way, Rob.

I'm sorry to interrupt but did you change up your mic at some point? Did I mention that?

Because it sounds like you're in an echo chamber. Yeah.

Like it might be like your your computer set to pick up the computers mic instead of your.

Is that better. There it is all way better, okay.

Yeah, I think it come unplugged and I had to read and when it did that it turned off. Thank you for telling me that because I didn't notice but now it is all we're good to go. Well, you guys have our answer this question.

Where does sprinkling come from. Where does the immersion come from. You answer that question so. The spiritual reality that you guys are brought up the the means and the mode. How does that help point to that spiritual reality.

And and I guess this is probably where we can we can either get into some of our personal conversations here or we can wait till after we talk about the Lord's Supper and get into because talking about the The the means means of grace aspect and the spiritual presence aspect, you know kind of fit in to both in a way.

Baptism, Sprinkling, and the Spiritual Reality It Signifies

Yeah.

This is Elias expertise. So I'm I'm gonna push that brother. He's been waiting. He's been waiting for the bits for this.

Okay. So so we're still on baptism, right? We want the spiritual significance of baptism. That's it. Um, I would just Refer to first Peter three, you know baptism which corresponds to this first Peter three verse 21.

Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and I think I Believe Paul. I mean parts.

Excuse me, Peter the Apostle Peter is speaking of the spiritual significance of baptism because baptism I Think I believe he's tying it really closely to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Which we would we would refer to as regeneration, right?

And this is what baptism is and he says not baptism right as a removal of dirt from the body, right? That's what that's the physical water aspect, right? It's not the physical water. That's gonna be Saving you it's it's what it's pointing to which is an appeal to God from good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What is baptism? We die of Christ and we rise of Christ. Right, and it's that baptism baptism of the Holy Spirit which baptism is pointing to right?

I'll add to that. You know. This is maybe a little controversial but you know, that's me I totally believe and agree with the statement baptism saves but not in the way that Lutherans for example mean it.

I Would say baptism saves absolutely in the same way that you know. Crying out to God and say God forgive my sins would save. It's like like Elias. Elias, excuse me, we're we're speaking American here not Latino.

Elias Was saying It's an appeal to God. Right, but it is not the action itself that saves. As a Calvinist You know that I would agree. Well, first of all as a Protestant, I would say no works save. So crying out to God and saying God save me forgive me isn't actually what saves.

Neither does baptism, right? It's an external expression of something that has happened in the heart and so.

You.

You will appeal to God and say Lord God forgive my sins save me and you will get baptized because you have been saved and Yet that's What it means, you know when you do that it saves. Right. How does that work?

Exactly? Only God knows. But all I know is we're not saved by works. We're saved by grace alone.

Yeah.

Let me follow follow up with you on that one because I knew a gentleman in my past that that wanted to use that language and. And he just wanted to do it to cause an argument even though he believed what exactly what you just said.

But that's not how people use the word baptism. So he would throw people off and then he just want to start an argument with that. But let me ask you this when you say baptism saves and I agree with you in the sense in the way you said it.

Would you agree that when you say that baptism saves are you using the word baptism there? Synonymously with Regeneration being born again being saved. No, okay. No.

Again what I am saying is Baptism saves in the same way that us appealing to God for anything else saves if you cry out to God Lord God Save me. Does that save you? No, it doesn't right so and yet we could say if you do that you will be saved right.

So same thing with baptism.

Also to their also to them kind of Adding to a Jane to kind of go back to where I was at. Um, I. What theologians referred to as a sacramental Union. Where the thing? signify the thing the sign is pointing to think signified for where which.

Baptism water baptism is pointing to the thing signify which is baptism by the Spirit. So therefore you can say baptism saves like like Jay is saying there. It's a it's a sacrament baptism of the sacrament ordinance.

But it's a union with the thing signified they're not they're not mixing together, but there's a union there.

That's where you lost Rob. I'm just not comfortable with that language. I don't know how you can say there's a union but not a mixture. That's I mean to me. That's the same.

What it's like the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. Okay, the fully man and fully God. Mm-hmm. Just like there's not a mixture, but there's a union there. He's not separate, but it's not a mixture, right?

Okay. All right. That's a good explanation. That's a good one. That's a good one Alliance. I'll give you that one. That's good. That's good.

Tonight brother.

Tyler do you want to add anything to that before we move on?

Kind of gonna wait and see. I made the joke in the group chat earlier. I was gonna pop popcorn and watch you guys do battle. So.

We ain't got to the lower suburbs yet, brother.

Well, the last one in this section was one that. Initially before we even got into all of our conversations that we've had recently. And I think it was big John if I'm not mistaken. Which kind of led us to this discussion?

Some people have this conversation. Should we Baptize in the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit, or is it okay just to baptize in the name of Jesus? How dogmatic are you on on that issue?

I'm pretty dogmatic. Okay. To try in baptism father son the Holy Spirit when our confession says it also scripture says it. Um, I think. For the people that are genuinely mistaken and think Jesus Jesus name only is okay when we see that in scripture, it's.

It's actually Descriptive not prescriptive meaning it's describing like when when Peter he's he told the disciple he told the people when he's preaching them. He said back go but be baptized in the name of Jesus.

He's not saying when he had baptized you say only Jesus. He's saying it's like saying go forth and preach the gospel in the name of Jesus. You're doing it in his will according to his will. Jesus when he prescribed baptism, he said do it in the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit.

Oh, that's prescriptive you he is prescribing you to do that in that way.

That's that's good.

And I think there's a gospel connotation to and when Peter says that in the book of Acts. When we're talking about baptizo meeting something pertaining to washing. Go be washed in Christ. Mmm, I think that I think that ties into Peter's statement of Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be washed in him and you will receive the Holy Ghost.

I Think that comes back to repentance and regeneration as opposed to maybe water baptism in and of itself. I.

Concur.

But everything that was really really good. Now, let's move on to the Lord's Supper. Um and it seems like where we should be having our Tussling on the theological side in in our past to our shame probably.

There's been mighty tussling over the mode of Baptism and Lord's Supper. What what elements do you use? I Don't know. But what do you guys fall on that when it comes to? What particular elements you use?

How important is that for you?

The Lord's Supper: Wine, Bread, and Frequency

Are we talking about the wine versus a grape juice thing? Yeah wine versus juice.

Store-bought Wafers or bread freshly baked.

Well, I will say that at my church we don't use wine and we don't use Traditional bread. I am very allergic to wheat. So I technically can't partake of it in that manner. My my conclusion on the elements and some of this comes back to to the faith we were talking about earlier with baptism that what Makes it more than a snack is the faith and that we commune with God by faith at the Lord's table.

And so I don't think we're restricted to actual alcoholic wine meeting the potency standards of the first century and Actual unleavened bread that was baked in the in a stone hearth.

Yeah, I I Would agree that it is by faith. However, I think that we should try to get as close as possible Again because it is. It is ordained by our Lord and you know, he didn't say grape juice. He said wine right now full disclosure.

My church is a reformed Baptist 1689 church that uses grape juice. Personally, I'm not too happy about it.

But.

You know, I'm working on other things. How frequent we should have The Lord's Supper is another point of contention between me and my church. And I love my pastors. Don't get me wrong. I do. I'm not here to bash my church.

I love my church. I Want to take the Lord's Supper more frequently. They want to make people. I guess the idea is appreciate it and not take it for granted, which I understand the logic.

But.

Yeah, I I don't think you know, my argument is well, are they gonna take preaching for granted if you preach every Sunday you know like not really. Not really following with that argument. But anyway, that's not neither here.

No, they 're.

The point is interesting Contextually that the elements are. Just they were staples at that time. This isn't something they went out of their way to consume. We have bread and we have wine at every meal.

Essentially, these are kind of staples it you saw more wine consumption than water oftentimes because water was for rich people.

Yeah, sure. So I mean, you know, I Would not I am obviously, you know, if I'm at that church and they're using grape juice Obviously I can be okay with it. I am NOT Overjoyed but but you know, it is what it is.

I've even thought about bringing up the idea of like well, what about like, you know, cuz they're concerned as well. It just you know, the translation literally means like juice from the vine, right? And so they're like, well that could be grape juice.

Excuse me grape juice. I'm like It actually says wine. In fact, if it were just juice from the from the vine Why would they warn you not to get drunk on it? Right like.

So my same persuasion I think. Is you on using wine. I have yet to see that integrated in a church, honestly.

Look, I've I've thought about even the possibility of like well, okay fine fine. What if we did at least alcohol free wine, which it does exist, right? Because their concern is about people who are former alcoholics who are trying to stay away from it.

I would argue well, they need to control themselves For the Lord's Supper or not partake if it's gonna be a big big problem for them. But I don't think that I should modify. Greatly what we have clearly been prescribed because you know, we were talking about baptism earlier and I would say okay.

That's a little unclear. Is it sprinkling? Is it you know immersion? Okay that we can have that debate. What kind of bread should we have leavened or unleavened? Okay, we can debate that. Well, we cannot debate is that it wasn't group.

It wasn't grape juice. It was not grape juice like that much is clear. If it was grape juice they wouldn't be saying don't get drunk on it and so. It was wine now if you want to do alcohol-free wine, you know.

To me that's better than than grape juice, but.

So your argument is the mode of it is important because that's what scripture describes. Correct, yeah, okay. Okay, and and that makes sense and that's I think that's wonderful argument.

Maybe you can correct my history knowledge on this one J. But wasn't the guy behind Welch's grape juice a Methodist back in the days of Prohibition. I don't even know man.

I know I've read it sometimes I've read I've read like the story behind what how did we end up with grape juice, but I it's been so long. I don't remember. But whoever that guy was I wish I could have find a time machine and just have a stern talking to.

Well Elias Jay brought it up the next question so if there's anything that you want to say about the elements and your thoughts on the elements and then also We want to talk about the the frequency that that's an issue of conversation.

So Lead us off on that on the frequency. Anything that you will say about the elements. If not, that's okay.

No, I think I think Tyler on the elements part. I think Tyler and Jade did did good. I think it's enough said. I don't even think I need to add to it on the frequency. My I go I look I go to a local church why I'm a member there where we do it once a month.

Which it's it's it's way more than what I use when I from what I grew up on. But I am now coming to an understanding where I would appreciate if we did it once every week. But like Jay said, you know, I respect it.

I respect and submit to the authority of my elders. Same reason my elders I had brought I brought up once quick in a quick way where you know brought away. We should what about once a week and you know same reason, you know people you want people to appreciate it.

So they they they do once a month.

But.

Yeah, I would say I'm leaning towards once a week. But I go to a local church that does it once a month, which I am greatly greatly for great greatly appreciative for.

Doing that. So there's gonna be a reason for the Frequency the extended frequency what. Tell me what the and and your reason and and this may be part of The fruit or the results of the contention that we have between the right our beliefs on this.

So so what's the importance of having it more frequently and you guys can jump into?