Laborers' Podcast: Baptism and the Lord's Supper

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Join the Laborers' Podcast as we discuss the Biblical modes and means of Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

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Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are thankful that you're joining us tonight. Tonight. We're going to be discussing
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Baptism and the Lord's Supper I can probably go ahead and tell you This is going to be a part one
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Even at even if we have to do the part two after the laborers conference coming up at the end of April April 26 to the 28th and instead of playing our normal introduction
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We're gonna watch this video To look at the upcoming conference, please stick with us after the video
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Hello, my name is Robert tonight and I'm the founder of the truth and love Network I Want to invite you and your family to join us in Knoxville, Tennessee on April the 26th through the 28th 2024 the conference is free and the theme of the conference is the work of the
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Holy Spirit in the church Please join us as we gather to preach and teach on this important topic
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Just trying to get the word out about our conference coming at the end of April Concerning the work of the
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Holy Spirit in the church It's going to be in Knoxville, Tennessee at Reformation Baptist Church It's going to be very educational, but also this group of guys who loves to have fun
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And so there'll be there'll be some good entertainment as well Hey guys, this is
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Tyler with the bread of the word podcast and I cannot wait to see everyone for the laborers conference this year
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Hey guys, it's Jay the reformed Puerto Rican dude from Providence perspective. I can't wait to see you all in real life
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Hey y 'all Jeremy Hull here, and I wanted to remind you to go to laborers conference comm and register for the conference today
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Dan self here April 26th will be here before you know it
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Be sure to make your plans today to be in Knoxville, Tennessee on April 26th through the 28th
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The conference will be exciting and informative There will be two Q &A sessions and Rob Myself and the other guys will be happy to field and answer your questions to the best of our ability
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See you then Hey, it's me big
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John from real talk with big John I wanted to invite y 'all to the laborers conference this
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April Hey guys, this is
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Keith Foskey with your Calvinist podcast If you love Jesus, you're gonna be in Knoxville, Tennessee April 26th through the 28th for the second annual laborers conference with the truth and love network.
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I hope to see you there Thank you
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Claude for that promo video is really nice The comment line is open. We'd love to hear from you your questions comments critiques
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We'll take it all how you guys doing tonight Do it. All right happy to be here Doing good.
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Can I just say that that video though makes me feel tall Maybe the only time in life
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That video makes me feel like I'm skinny And I would take both of those on myself as well and appreciate it oh
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Let's jump into it because This time will pass by quickly as we as we go through this topic
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We want to talk about the the mode and means of baptism and the Lord suffer as much as possible tonight
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Most of my questions are about the the mode itself But we'll probably get into the the means and and probably some of the discussions that we have off the air amongst each other
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And we'll see how that goes because there are some differences among us But we all agree that Baptism is a command it comes from Scripture.
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There's no Question there's no argument that we as Christians practice baptism as a part of Following Christ.
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So that's that's clear. That's one. That's a place of agreement where we all can start But why do you guys say that this is important of the how the mode?
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Because that's I mean, that's really the main distinctive when it comes to the Baptist is
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The mode there's different stripes of Baptist but overarchingly Mode of baptism is kind of our distinctive.
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So how important do you think the how or the mode is when it comes to baptism? Boy oh boy, let me just start by saying
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I Once again don't fit into the majority of Baptists, I Would agree
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I would agree that Probably the proper way of baptism would be immersion
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But I just I have not personally worked out whether it might be acceptable to have alternatives, right?
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And that's probably my fault for not spending enough time
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Sort of looking into it I do believe the word baptizo Right in the
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Greek means to immerse and I get the argument the counter argument which says, okay
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Well, you don't baptize a table, right? We see in the Greek the word baptizo used for Things like tables and chairs and things like that, which implies a washing not necessarily immersion so Yeah, it's just not something that I personally have worked my way through but if I'm going to be truthful to the text
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You know it because I think about it like this, you know when you use the word baptizo in the Greek to talk about tables or Or whatever it might be
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It's kind of like slant right? It's it's that sense in which you might say. Oh I'm trying to think of a good example um,
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I can't think of one but but the idea of like well, you know, I'm just gonna Immerse this real quick right and everybody knows what they're what you're saying.
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You're saying you're gonna wash it But that's not you're not literally going to immerse it.
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However, when it comes to the word baptizo being used as In the context of baptism,
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I don't see how they would be using it in a Symbolic sense. Does that make sense what
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I'm trying to say? Like sometimes you can use words that mean something else and you kind of reinterpret or reapply what they mean
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Even in our modern concept. I wish I could think of an example and They don't always mean that literally but the point is that when it comes to the mode of baptism
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I don't think that we're being told to baptize in a symbolic way as in just wash
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I do think that it is an argument of like literally immerse. So I Could be wrong, right?
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I'm and I admit that as a Baptist that makes me a bad Baptist and Maybe somebody can tell me you know, if they have a different opinion or why they're convinced otherwise
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Well, that's probably on me, isn't it because the rest of you guys are Baptists And I will say that I am
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NOT dogmatic on the mode of baptism I think if you look to the right passages you can make a case for all three
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That with immersion you have as Jay just laid out with baptizo in this idea of of washing
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And with pouring you have places like Romans 5 with he has poured the Holy Spirit into our hearts you have sprinkling which
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I think alludes to the Sprinkling of blood that we see in the Old Testament and is a picture of Christ's final sacrifice.
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I Think you can make a case for all three of these and so I'm not necessarily dogmatic about one
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Because what makes baptism genuine is is faith Mm -hmm is the is the what it actually signifies is it's not just getting wet but there's something deeper that transcends the amount of water we use and that's that I'm definitely opposed to the
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Presbyterians that may or may not have drowned Baptist in the Reformation era But that was probably not the way to handle this and I definitely think this was not something that should have split the church
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And so while I'm personally convinced of a sprinkling model Because of that sacrifice language and the idea that it paints for us a picture of the atonement of Christ That we have been made clean.
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I'm not you have to do it this way or you're wrong This is this is a live -or -die thing.
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This is not a hill. I want to be dead on today And and let me just say one thing
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I Am NOT saying that it doesn't matter, you know If we've been instructed to do something we ought to do it the way that we were told to do it
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All I'm saying is that we're not at least I'm not 100 % clear on What exactly it is that we ought to do in this situation?
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I Defer to men who are wiser than I am And so I followed the 1689 1689 says it has to be immersion
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So, you know, I I trust I trust these godly men who
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You know who could be wrong. I'm not saying that they're infallible. I'm not Roman Catholic, right? I'm not following them simply because I'm like, well, you know, it's what they say and so they're never wrong.
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They could be wrong I just think they probably aren't right so That that's how
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I see it. But again, you know, if somebody can convince me, otherwise I'm I'm open to that.
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But Tyler you haven't done anything so far It is amazing to look over our well
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Relatively, it's a recent history, but our history in the Christian faith in the church and tell you brought it up the
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I Mean that is that is a dogmatic stance. That is a harsh test to take when you
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When you say hey you believe in immersion you're gonna stay there until you don't come up anywhere so you don't breathe
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You have all the water you want exactly and that's that's a serious
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Matter that's a serious stance to take. I mean, that's But you can also see over over time how
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The hand has loosened the grip on that but also In a in a bad sense, it's loosened the grip on the importance of theology and doctrine as well
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So our our theology and doctrine has gotten loose but also in those areas of being dogmatic where we necessarily shouldn't
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That has loosened up and that has been good. I Pray that we're in this in a time in the church where God is steering us in the right direction
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We're seeking unity, but we have grace towards one another in seeking that unity, of course because most millennialism is true
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Absolutely, I'll talk about that and I'm sure that Unity I believe
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I believe that I Could be wrong on this but I believe as part as part of my post millennial
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Hope I do believe that the church will progressively develop greater unity But that's a different topic and I was just making a joke
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Well, and I would agree with that too. And that would part of that would be theology Correct What I'm trying to say
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Rob is that? Before Jesus comes back. Everybody's gonna be reformed Baptist. That's what
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I'm trying to say Hey, you don't have any argument with me. Maybe Tyler, but you don't have any argument
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Tyler didn't laugh I don't think he appreciated So It was like so late
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What it means that modes look like in your church and explain why why do you practice it that way? And so us us three in the middle of model probably similar and Tyler's are opposing in at least in this area
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No means it moves. So you're gonna be similar with us then Yes, because I go to a non -denominational church and we do baptize by immersion
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Okay, I am in a church where not every single one of my preferences are satisfied and that's actually part of why
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I'm there okay, and so my church Baptizes by immersion.
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My pastor came up in the Plymouth Brethren where they baptized forwards and backwards
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What Right. So if I remember it, right, it's three times forwards and then one time backwards what?
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Hmm, that's like super immersion Let's make sure this guy got the
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Holy Spirit in him, you know what I'm saying like What a fourth time for good measure Yes, so we do a baptism by immersion that we
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We don't apply church membership to the children of believers, but that's something that they are
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Expected to walk through when they become when they turn 18 That their membership is kind of up in the air and so they're of the age to walk through that with the pastor themselves
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And so oftentimes we end up baptizing 18 year olds I'm sorry,
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I Was just I was just gonna say you bring up a good point there because you and it's I don't think that added it in Our questions, but you brought up the the idea of membership church membership and baptism
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Is tied to membership in our churches, so how explain that to us how baptism church membership are related
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So the idea of baptism is I think is a picture of Well, it's an outward signifier of what
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Christ has done within a person that it is an outward Sign of what
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Christ has placed in a person. You know when we talk about regeneration and we talk about Circumcision of the heart that baptism is an outward
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Demonstration of this person has been sanctified of this of the heart. I'm not saying circumcised
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Where'd I get saying this person has been circumcised of the heart this person was one way and now is in Christ And we are celebrating that today.
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We are declaring that and we are celebrating that and we are Making and making a commitment with this person to hold them accountable to come alongside them and to Walk with them as they walk with Christ Elias I think we know
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Tyler's answers the next question, but but could you did you attend a church like that and Not have all your preferences met
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Could I have yeah, yeah, so oh, yeah, could you could you be a member of good standing and and practice?
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That has different practices than your convictions Well, yeah, like even though I do go to a
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Baptist Church, um, I would say I They they don't share like, you know as a church whole they wouldn't share same my convictions.
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Um, you know sticking with the topic where like I don't think I Think I'm in the minority where my church
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I I believe that we're you know, my I have a different view of baptism in the Lord's Supper and different, you know
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Means of it right the meaning of baptism or so, but I have I have it I'm in the minority of my church also
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Yeah, and that's I think that's pretty much it Oh eschatology wise as well I'm in the minority even my pastors.
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I mean or he is an on mill my pastor But I think majority is maybe
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Premillennial leaning dispensation, but I don't think yeah So I thought your church was a reformed
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Baptist I would say All my elders are reformed, but I don't the church hasn't like officially said they were they were a foreign
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Baptist. Yeah Yeah Here's a practical question that's not over there and I'd like for each of you to answer this
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Maybe you may have the same answer Which would be cool but All these issues baptism or suffer these other convictions as ecology that we talked about they're they're important But I know
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I struggle with this when looking for a church, you know, I want to be In in this kind of church that has this and of course, it'd be great if they met all my preferences
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But what's that one or two things that you know, we can disagree on eschatology we can have slightly different understanding of the
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Lord's Supper baptism, but that one or two things that they must have and I will
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I will attend this church faithfully and wonderfully and And just and love being there.
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What are those one or two things that are musts? for me, it's sound preaching
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That's one and two What's Godly elders and what with God the elders it comes with many things, you know
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Biblical discipleship, you know, so yeah those two things I would look for Only two things
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That is hard if you can air down if I think
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Obviously holding to the essentials 100 % like they need to be and I mean like not even shaky, you know, like I need solid essential
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Which includes, you know the right gospel You know the
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Trinity all that good stuff Penal substitutionary atonement. Yes, that is an essential for me.
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Some people say that's that's not one of the essentials of the faith I'm like, yes it is But but holding to the essentials
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And then the other thing this This one might
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I might let it slide depending But I really really would have a hard time
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Dispensational I would not I really really would have a hard time being at a dispensational church
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Again not impossible But I think it would have to be like there's absolutely nothing else
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For me so referring to dispensationalism just just because of the the wide variety of definitions out there we going off of like the
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General view of the the narrative of Scripture the way they fit the Old and New Testament in the seven dispensations
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Going with the general idea there or like the extreme you with I'm sure and well Even even like John MacArthur's Two dispensations or three dispensations dispensationalism the leaky dispensationalism
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I would really personally again I'm not saying that This is true for everybody.
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I just personally I would really have a hard time But that's just me, okay,
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I was just curious given that I've Even just interacting with with Keith Foskey from the network as well that there's a few definitions and brands out there
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Yeah, there's there's a lot of variety of dispensationalism, but what it really falls Falls, you know what it what it boils down to is
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You know You see Israel and the church as distinct and all of the implications that come out of that I would really have a hard time with that's really what it boils down to Okay, what about you
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Tyler? For me it would probably be
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Expository preaching that is to say just having somebody stand and for the church and break open the word and let the
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Bible just kind of speak for itself and the willingness to walk that out and let the Bible trickle down into The way we do things whether that is worship whether that is discipleship whether that is church discipline
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That it's the application that flows out of expository preaching as well I Know that question wasn't really part of the topic
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But it's really practically helpful for many people in the church and and Jay I think your answer is good and honest because if you can't attend a church that's like that then you will be you know
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Divisive and not a good fit for that church it for many different reasons and and I agree totally with you guys
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You know sound expositional preaching the essentials, you know, by the way Rob I'm sorry to interrupt.
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But did you change up your mic at some point? Did I mention that? Because it sounds like you're an echo chamber.
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Yeah Like it might be like your your computer set to pick up the computers mic instead of your is that better?
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There it is all way better. Okay Yeah, I think it come unplugged and I had to read and when it did that it turned off Thank you for telling me that because I didn't notice but now it is on Well, you guys have our answer this question where does sprinkling come from where does the immersion come from you've answered that question so The spiritual reality that you guys are brought up the the means and the mode
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How does that help point to that spiritual reality? and and I guess this is probably where we can we can either get into some of our personal conversations here or we can wait till after we talk about the
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Lord's Supper and get into because Talking about the The the means means of grace aspect and the spiritual presence aspect, you know kind of fit in to both in a way
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This is Elias expertise, um, I'm gonna push that brother Okay So so we're still on baptism, right?
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We want the spiritual significance of baptism basically, um, I would just Refer to first Peter 3, you know baptism which corresponds to this verse first Peter 3 verse 21
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Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body
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But as it appeals to God for a good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and I think
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I believe Paul I mean parts. Excuse me, Peter The Apostle Peter is speaking of the spiritual significance of baptism because baptism.
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I Think I believe he's tying it really closely to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which we would we would refer to as regeneration
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Right, and this is what baptism is and he says not baptism right as a removal of dirt from the body, right?
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That's what that's the physical water aspect, right? It's not the physical water. That's gonna be Saving you it's it's what it's pointing to which is an appeal to God from good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ What is baptism?
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We die of Christ and we rise of Christ Right, and it's that baptism baptism or the Holy Spirit which baptism is pointing to right
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I'll add to that You know This is maybe a little controversial but you know, that's me
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I totally believe and agree with the statement baptism saves But not in the way that Lutherans, for example mean it
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I Would say baptism saves absolutely in the same way that you know
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Crying out to God and say God forgive my sins would save It's like like Elias Elias, excuse me, we're we're speaking
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American here not Latino Elias Was saying
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It's an appeal to God Right, but it is not the action itself that saves as a
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Calvinist, you know that I would agree. Well, first of all as a Protestant I would say no works save So crying out to God and saying
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God save me forgive me isn't actually what saves Neither does baptism, right?
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It's an external expression of something that has happened in the heart. And so You You will appeal to God and say
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Lord God forgive my sins save me and you will get baptized because you have been saved and Yet, that's what it means, you know when you do that it saves
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Right. How does that work exactly? Only God knows
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But all I know is we're not saved by works. We're saved by grace alone Yeah Let me follow follow up with you on that one because I know a gentleman in my past that that wanted to use that language and and he just wanted to do it to cause an argument even though he believed what exactly what you just said, but That's not how people use the word baptism.
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So he would throw people off and then he just want to start an argument with that But let me ask you this when you say baptism saves and I agree with you in the sense of in the way you said
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Would you agree that when you say that baptism saves are you using the word baptism there?
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synonymously with Regeneration being born again being saved.
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No, okay. No Again what I am saying is
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Baptism saves in the same way that us appealing to God for anything else saves if you cry out to God Lord God save me.
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Does that save you? No, no, it doesn't right so and yet we could say if you do that you will be saved right?
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So same thing with baptism Also to their also to them kind of Adding to a
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Jane to kind of go back to where I was at. Um, I would What theologians referred to as a sacramental
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Union? Where the thing? Signified the thing the sign is pointing to think signified for where which
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Baptism water baptism is pointing to the thing signified which is baptism by the Spirit So therefore you can say baptism saves like like Jay is saying there
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It's a it's a sacrament baptism of the sacrament ordinance. However, you want to prefer it, but it's a union with the thing signified
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They're not they're not mixing together, but there's a union there That's where you lost
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Rob. I'm just not comfortable with that language I don't know how you can say there's a union but not a mixture.
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That's I mean to me. That's the same What it's like the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ Okay, fully man and fully
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God. Mm -hmm Just like there's not a mixture, but there's a union there. He's not separate, but it's not a mixture, right?
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Okay That's a good explanation. That's a good one. That's a good one Alliance. I'll give you that one.
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That's good. That's good tonight brother Tyler do you want to add anything to that before we move on?
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I made the joke in the group chat earlier.
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I was gonna pop popcorn and watch you guys do battle Well, the last one in this section was one that Initially before we even got into all of our conversations that we've had recently
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And I think it was big John if I'm not mistaken which kind of led us to this discussion
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Some people have this conversation should we Baptize in the name of the Father Son the
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Holy Spirit, or is it okay just to baptize in the name of Jesus? How dogmatic are you on on that issue?
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I'm pretty dogmatic. Okay To try and baptism father son the Holy Spirit one our confession says it also scripture says it
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I think For the people that are genuinely mistaken and think
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Jesus Jesus name only is okay When we see that in Scripture, it's it's actually
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Descriptive not prescriptive meaning it's describing like when when Peter he's he told the disciple
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He told the people when he's preaching them. He said back go but be baptized in the name of Jesus He's not saying when you get baptized you say only
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Jesus He's saying it's like saying go forth and preach the gospel in the name of Jesus You're doing it in his will according to his will
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Jesus when he prescribed baptism, he said do it in the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit Oh, that's prescriptive you he is prescribing you to do that in that way
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That's that's good. And I think there's a gospel connotation to and when
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Peter says that in the book of Acts When we're talking about baptizo meaning something pertaining to washing
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Go be washed in Christ Mmm, I think that I think that ties into Peter's statement of Believe on the
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Lord Jesus Christ and be washed in him and you will receive the Holy Ghost. I Think that comes back to repentance and regeneration as opposed to maybe water baptism in and of itself.
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I Concur That was really really good Now, let's move on to the
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Lord's Supper. Um and it seems like where we should be having our
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Tussling on the theological side in in our past to our shame probably there's been mighty tussling over the mode of Baptism and Lord's Supper.
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What what elements do you use? I Don't know. But what do you guys fall on that when it comes to?
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What particular elements you use? How important is that for you?
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We're talking about the wine versus a grape juice thing. Yeah wine versus juice store -bought wafers or bread freshly baked
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Well, I will say that at my church we don't use wine and we don't use
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Traditional bread I am very allergic to wheat so I technically can't partake of it in that manner my my conclusion on The elements and some of this comes back to to the faith.
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We were talking about earlier with baptism that what? Makes it more than a snack is the faith and that we commune with God by faith at the
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Lord's table And so I don't think we're restricted to Actual alcoholic wine meeting the potency standards of the first century and Actual unleavened bread that was baked in the in a stone hearth
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Yeah, I I Would Agree that it is by faith however,
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I Think that we should try to get as close as possible Again because it is
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It is ordained by our Lord And you know, he didn't say grape juice.
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He said wine right now full disclosure
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My church is a reformed Baptist 1689 church that uses grape juice
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Personally, I'm not too happy about it but You know, I'm working on other things how frequent we should have
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The Lord's Supper is another point of contention between me and my church And I love my pastors
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I'm gonna be wrong I do I'm not here to bash my church I love my church I Want to take the
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Lord's Supper more frequently They want to make people I guess the idea is appreciate it and not take it for granted, which
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I understand the logic but Yeah, I I don't think you know, my argument is well are they gonna take preaching for granted if you preach every
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Sunday you know like not really Not really following with that argument.
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But anyway, that's neither here. No there The point is interesting contextually that the elements are
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Just they were staples at that time This isn't something they went out of their way to consume.
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This was we have bread and we have wine at every meal Essentially, these are kind of staples it you saw more wine consumption than water oftentimes because water was for rich people
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Sure, so I mean, you know, I would not I am obviously, you know, if I'm at that church and they're using grape juice
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Obviously I can be okay with it. I am NOT Overjoyed but but you know, it is what it is
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I've I've even thought about bringing up the idea of like well What about like, you know, cuz their concern is well, it just you know, the translation literally means like juice from the vine
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Right, and so they're like well that could be grape juice. Excuse me grape juice. I'm like It actually says wine.
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In fact, if it were just juice from the from the vine Why would they warn you not to get drunk on it?
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Right like So my same persuasion I think is you on using wine
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I have yet to see that integrated in a church, honestly Look, I've I've thought about even the possibility of like well, okay fine fine
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What if we did at least alcohol -free wine? Which it does exist right because their concern is about people who are former alcoholics who are trying to stay away from it
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I would argue well, they need to control themselves For the Lord's Supper or not partake if it's gonna be a big big problem for them
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But I don't think that I should modify Greatly what we have clearly been prescribed because you know, we were talking about baptism earlier and I would say okay
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That's a little unclear. Is it sprinkling? Is it you know immersion? Okay that we can have that debate
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What kind of bread should we have leavened or unleavened? Okay, we can debate that Well, we cannot debate is that it wasn't group.
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It wasn't grape juice It was not grape juice like that much is clear. If it was grape juice, they wouldn't be saying don't get drunk on it.
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And so It was wine now if you want to do alcohol -free wine
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You know to me that's better than than grape juice but So your argument is the mode of it is important because that's what scripture describes correct, yeah, okay
36:37
Okay, and and that makes sense. And that's I think that's one of our argument Maybe you can correct my history knowledge on this one
36:45
J But wasn't the guy behind Welch's grape juice a Methodist back in the days of Prohibition.
36:51
I don't even know man I know I've read it sometimes I've read I've read like the story behind what how did we end up with grape juice, but I it's been so long.
37:01
I don't remember But whoever that guy was I wish
37:06
I could have find a time machine and just have a stern talking to Well Elias J brought it up the next question so if there's anything that you want to say about the elements and your thoughts on the elements and then also
37:20
We want to talk about the the frequency that that's an issue of conversation so Lead us off on that on the frequency
37:29
Anything that you want to say about the elements if not, that's okay No, I think I think Tyler on the elements part.
37:36
I think Tyler and Jade did did good I think it's enough said I don't even think I need to add to it on the frequency My I go
37:44
I look I go to a local church why I'm a member there where we do it once a month Which it's it's it's way more than what
37:52
I use when I from what I grew up on But I am now coming to an understanding where I would appreciate if we did it once every week
38:02
But like Jay said, you know, I respect I respect and submit to the authority of my elders
38:08
Same reason my elders I had brought I brought up once quick in a quick way where you know brought away
38:15
What about once a week and you know same reason, you know people you want people to appreciate it
38:21
So they there they do once a month But but yeah
38:26
I would say I'm leaning towards once a week, but I go to a local church that does it once a month
38:32
Which I am greatly greatly for great greatly appreciative for doing that so there's gonna be a reason for the
38:43
Frequency the extended frequency what? Tell me what the and and your reason and and this may be part of The fruit or the results of the contention that we have between the right our beliefs on this
38:55
So so what's the importance of having it more frequently and you guys can jump into? So I would say the reason why it's frequently and it's
39:05
I would say this is part of our worship What we see in the Bible and also what we see our church history
39:12
The Lord's Supper has always been a part of the worship in the church And so like like Jay said, you know preaching is part of our worship singing is about a worship so Lord's Supper should be part of a worship every week and um in that I would say you know the
39:28
Brothers can speak on this as well. Hmm. I would say the Lord's Supper is a means of grace of God's grace and Meaning I got in in in the participation of the table of the
39:40
Lord's table God is in bestowing grace on the believer, right and without the
39:47
Holy Spirit This is this means a grace is not possible
39:53
You have to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. It has to be by the power of the Holy Spirit it is pop is possible that this participation on the
40:00
Lord's table or the Lord's Supper is a Blessing to you and a means of grace to you as you partake in it
40:09
Yeah, I would I would agree I do believe that it is a means of grace by which the
40:15
Holy Spirit strengthens his people Whenever you partake of the Lord's Supper by faith
40:23
What's going on there perfect car for any of your needs I Missed I missed it.
40:29
I was reading the questions of real so I missed it So I heard I heard like an like an ad or something or a car
40:40
Does that mean you're up Okay, well as I was saying, okay, so I do believe that the the
40:52
Lord's Supper baptism are means of grace by which the Lord Strengthens spiritually his people by faith, right if you don't actually have don't actually have faith in Christ And you get baptized you're just getting wet if you don't actually have faith in Christ and you particular or supper
41:11
Well first you're incurring judgment upon yourself, but you also Are just eating some bread and drinking some wine
41:18
It's really not doing anything other than that But if you do it by faith you participate by faith there is a spiritual presence by which the
41:31
Holy Spirit is Reminding you right not just in your mind But in your heart of what
41:37
Christ has done for you and is strengthening your faith increasing your faith in him
41:44
Spiritually feeding you right you are spiritually feeding on Christ and I'm not talking about transubstance
41:52
Transubstantiation, I'm not I don't believe in that. I'm simply saying that there is a spiritual
42:00
Reality where we are receiving more of Christ in that moment It's kind of like, you know, when you pray or when you read the scripture you say
42:09
Lord God strengthen my faith Lord God Let me believe in you more. Let me trust in you more help me with my unbelief help me with resisting sin
42:21
Right, let me walk according to your good and perfect law not according to my sinful flesh it's that same appeal and It's it's the
42:31
Holy Spirit giving you what you need in that moment But the elements themselves are not what is doing that.
42:40
It's the Holy Spirit. That's doing that by faith Just straighten up your comment
42:51
We have been members of your form about this church and reformers because in the essentials we agree.
42:56
Yeah, amen. Amen Amen So what about you? Um, Tyler?
43:03
the frequency the means of grace as the purpose of Doing it more frequently
43:11
Honestly, I'm Right alongside at J and Elias on this my church does it the last
43:17
Sunday of every month? I would love to see us do it more often, but that's not where we are
43:25
But I would definitely I concur with the idea of communing with Christ as frequently as we can
43:32
With this with the spiritual presence that this is something that strengthens us This is something that by faith builds us up in Christ And of course,
43:42
I'm probably the minority have you in my church on on that one as well We have some memorialists.
43:48
We have spiritualists. We have we're a little bit of a mixed bag on that So we've kind of landed at a month once a month
43:56
Which is more often than any other church I've ever been in I will say the church
44:01
I got saved and we did it four times a year well, I will say
44:07
I will say Elias that your argument for The Lord's Supper being a part of worship some to me was a strong argument for Having it more frequently
44:20
And so I appreciate that argument and so it's an argument I think that that I would use if I'm going to approach my fellow elders and say hey, let's look at this and And that would be an argument that I would use what so I appreciate that and I thank you for that And so I don't think
44:37
I don't think God Tyler J. I don't think Elias would be satisfied If I didn't let him
44:44
Light the fuse and watch me explode during this episode And create some fireworks.
44:50
So On baptism Lord's Supper. We got about 15 minutes
44:57
If we want to stop within an hour or maybe we can go a little bit over but Elias, you know
45:03
You know take off. I do not just just for clarity Conversation happening off air in in our private chat
45:15
We've been talking about this a lot. And so where Elias J and Tyler are lining up Is not exactly where I'm lining up when it comes to the the means of grace and the spiritual presence aspect of The Lord's Supper and baptism.
45:30
So I guess my view would typically be labeled what the memorial view
45:36
And there's others in our group that actually to give me to give me a little credibility, even though they've been silent
45:44
Give me a little credibility. There's some others that hold to the memorial view not just me But notice notice how none of them joined tonight they're not
45:54
I've got to hold the line for Back on another topic,
46:01
I'm sure. Oh, yeah, you know when like eschatology or the King James Bible or something comes up Okay Why are you a memorialist because I can't see
46:20
I can't see in Scripture The connections that you guys are making
46:28
Okay, let me ask you let me ask you this question Why?
46:34
Do you need to remember what Christ has done for you? Well, first of all, because he he commanded us to remember.
46:43
Okay, he commanded us to remember and also it is It is spiritual nourish nourishing For us.
46:54
Oh Is that right? So who is present when you're being spiritually nourished
47:03
Who is present Rob? Well, my argument is is that there there's not a special presence as in there were as in opposed to different times
47:17
Okay But so that spiritual nourishment in the act of remembrance that you just said you believe in right you believe in the in the act of remembrance part in the participant
47:26
Lord supper Their spiritual nourishment going on there only because The the word is present
47:36
We've talked about this before where we're Confession, you know, I'm gonna be as long as you guys will allow me.
47:43
I'm gonna continue to Claim to be a confessionalist and hold to the 1689 to the best of my ability and I followed along your conversations and you know, we we have some disagreements with some of the confessions and All of us do some of us more than others, but that's okay as long as you allow me be confessionalist
48:04
But there were there were four there was the preaching of the word prayer baptism Lord supper, right? And I would have narrowed it down to two and you guys
48:14
Kind of called me on the prayer one So if I have to I would narrow it down to to the word because without the word present
48:22
Then you are just eating the elements You have to you have to know what to remember and faith comes by hearing hearing from the
48:31
Word of God So so to be able to get spiritually fed to be spiritually nourished during That event during that ceremony you have to know why you're doing it and to for that to happen
48:44
You have to have the word the word has to be present has to be explained and we can say well We're Christians.
48:50
We already know what but there But that goes back to your argument out preaching every
48:55
Sunday We hear that we hear the word every Sunday So we should hear the gospel every
49:01
Sunday We should hear the remembrance every Sunday and that comes from the word so that would that would be my argument for that So, what do you do with like, you know, the 1689 says that What is it
49:14
That Christians or the faithful right like really and indeed yet not
49:21
Is it? Realistically, no like carnally and corporally but spiritually receive and feed upon Christ I Believe that's the wording that the 1689 has when it comes to the
49:35
Lord's Supper so You know if I say something like that, like, you know a believer really and indeed yet not
49:44
Carnally and corporally but spiritually receives and feeds upon Christ Would you say amen to that or how how would you
49:55
You know interpret that I guess you could say I would hold on to that key word there spiritually
50:01
Just as Jesus is the door. I Must walk through him to see the father to know the father and so If we're interpreting these things spiritually, then
50:13
I'm going to if I'm going to feast and I'm going to be feasting on the word
50:20
Which of course is is Christ and so and so I take that in a spiritual sense
50:26
Okay. Okay. So if so, if there's a spiritual presence there it's coming from the word and I'm feasting on that word
50:34
If I didn't quote real quick It's from the Lord's Supper by Thomas Watson, which is a
50:40
Puritan he was a spiritual presence means of grace perform Puritan on the paid about this side, but he said he says this which
50:49
I think it's kind of beautiful and maybe um It speaks a better to where I can he says the word is for the engrafting
50:55
In fact, he asked the question why was sack but why was a sacrament Lord's Supper appointed?
51:01
Is it not the word sufficient to bring us to heaven? And he answers this the word is for the engrafting the group sacrament
51:08
For the confirming of faith the word brings us to Christ the sacrament builds us up in him The word is the font where we are baptized with the
51:16
Holy Spirit The sacrament is a table where we are fed and cherished the Lord condescends to our weaknesses
51:22
We were made of all of spirit. There will be no need of bread and wine, but we are compounded creatures
51:28
Therefore God to help our faith does not only give us an audible word, but a visible sign
51:34
So, I think My mind thinks slower than you just read so bear with me so so the
51:43
I would I Would tend to agree with the first and last part of that statement so when he talked about confirming
51:52
I Say that with the Lord's Supper with baptism, so so we do baptism in obedience to Christ, right?
52:00
So that's that's a confirming of our faith. That's a public Broadcasting of our faith.
52:05
It's it's a fruit Obedience is a fruit that we've been saved. And so baptism is you know
52:12
We we try to lead people towards one of the first acts of obedience that you after God has saved you so it's a fruit
52:20
It's a it's a confirming if you will in that sense And so the Lord's Supper would be the same thing if God has saved you then you're gonna have a desire to be obedient to his commands and so Partaking in the
52:33
Lord's Supper because it was a command would be confirming of your faith because you are being obedient to Christ Okay I'm following you
52:44
If that's what he meant by that then I would agree with that Well, he would agree but then again like this is why spiritual presence we're not denying the remembrance and the obedience aspect of it
52:55
And it is that but it's also we just say it's more So, where do you get in Scripture them the more as in it's
53:08
Here as opposed to and not other times and other places and other ceremonies
53:13
I Said in the chat where I wanted to bring up 1st Corinthians 10 I was so excited to I was gonna bring it in the chat, but I was like, you know
53:22
Let me just save it for tonight. You're gonna you're gonna wait to shoot those bullets. I haven't waited maybe because you mentioned where our brother
53:31
Dan he gave you a passage in 1st Corinthians 11 that it was more like a
53:37
Almost a light bulb that you could have been. Okay. I think I'm seeing something here, but not fully there yet And maybe with this exegete
53:45
Hopefully I remember and by faithly I do it correctly In 1st
53:52
Corinthians 10 maybe that this can be another part for you So 1st Corinthians chapter 10 I'm just gonna go through it
53:59
For I do not want you to be unaware Brethren that our fathers were all under the cloud and passed through the sea and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud in the sea and All ate all the same spiritual food all drank the same spiritual drink
54:17
For they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them in the rock was Christ Nevertheless where most of them
54:24
God was not well pleased for they were laid low in the wilderness Now these things happen as examples for us.
54:31
So he's saying these are things that actually happened They actually drank spiritual drink. They were eating music.
54:36
These were examples actually he's saying now these things happen as examples for us So that we would not crave evil things as they also craved
54:45
Do not be idolatrous as some of them were as it was written the people sat down to eat and drink stood up to play
54:52
Nor let us act immorally as some of them did in 23 ,000 fell in one day
54:59
Now let us try the Lord Nor let us try the Lord as some of them did and were destroyed by the serpents
55:06
This is this is something that actually happened and obviously in the Old Testament Nor grumble as some of them did and were destroyed by the destroyer
55:15
Now these things happen to them as an example as they were written for our instruction upon the end of the ages have come
55:23
Therefore let him let him who thinks he stands take. He that he does not fall
55:29
No temptation has to overtaken you but such as a common to man and God is faithful Who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able?
55:39
But with temptation will provide the way of escape also so that you will be able to endure it Therefore my beloved flee from idolatry as I speak to wise men you judge what
55:49
I say So he's commanding them flee from the idolatry that just like the in the old covenant They did he's telling the
55:54
Corinthians flee from this idolatry because obviously they were in the current There was a lot of pagan stuff going on.
55:59
There were a lot of pagan practices that Corp Corinthians are still doing And he's speaking to speak right now. Is it not the cup of blessing which we bless is sharing in the blood of Christ Is it not the bread which we break is sharing in the body of Christ?
56:15
Since there is one bread we who are many are one body for we all partake of the one bread
56:23
I believe he's speaking of the Lord's Supper here and he goes on let Look at the nation of Israel are not those who eat the sacrifices shares in the altar in the altar
56:34
What do I mean then that a thing sacrifice to idols is anything or that an idol is anything?
56:40
No, but I say the things to which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons He's saying all these
56:45
Gentiles that were sacrificing. I mean, there's a lot of pagan Pebbles and corn so they were sacrificing the idols and not they were sacrificing the demons not to God And I do not want you to become sharers and demons.
56:57
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord in the cup of demons so I believe he's speaking to them that There were people drinking a take part taking a little supper.
57:05
But also they were maybe partaking of sacrifice sacrifice meals to titles
57:14
You cannot partake of the table of the Lord in the table of demons or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?
57:20
We are not stronger than he are we all things are lawful But not all things are profitable all things are lawful, but not all things edify
57:27
Let no one seek his own good But that of his neighbor eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience sake
57:36
So you see saying again eat anything the meat he's talking about actual eating here But if you grab a meat at the market don't ask where it came from just eat it
57:45
Don't worry about what it came from for your conscience sake But the earth is the Lord's and all it contains if one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go eat
57:52
Eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience sake but if anyone says to you
57:58
This meat sacrifice to idols do not eat it for the sake of the one who informed you and for conscience sake
58:04
I mean not I Mean not your own conscience But the other man's for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience if I partake with thankfulness?
58:12
Why am I slandered concerning that which for I which I get? Thanks, whether do you whether then you eat or drink or whatever you do do all to the glory of God Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the
58:24
Church of God Just as I also please all men in all things not seek my own profit
58:30
But the profit of the many so that they may be saved So I believe they're all is saying the cup we bless
58:40
And is it not the the the blood? In the cup we bless is sharing in the blood of Christ and it's not the bread we break
58:49
He's I think he's speaking of the actual Lord's Supper here Cuz again if you go flow remember there was no chapters if you flow keep going he's he gets right into The unmannerly taking of the
59:00
Lord's Supper So I believe he's strongly speaking of that partaking this partaking and sharing of the one body of us as Communion we are communing together with Christ.
59:11
I think that's a strong evidence for a spiritual Presence and means of grace there in the
59:17
Lord's Supper Okay. Well, I'm glad you said that because I just wanted to make clear for everybody Who's who's watching that you're making an argument for the spiritual presence of Christ in the
59:26
Lord's Supper and your your main verses? Were 16 and 17 Right, and I just read 10 just to give that context
59:35
Right, right Yeah and in chapter 10 verse 16 where it talks about the fellowship of the blood the fellowship of the body the the word is
59:44
It's the same where we use elsewhere in the New Testament for the fellowship among other believers koinonia.
59:52
I Think what you were reading from said the sharing of the body, but yeah,
59:57
I have the NASB 95. Yeah Communion so Communion with the body and the the
01:00:05
Greek word that we're translating is koinonia. Mm -hmm Yeah, so so here's my argument and rebuttal for that in 16 and 17 so both sides of this argument you guys and mine when you read 16 and 17 to some degree you have to Spiritualize the the meaning of this to to get the the true and actual
01:00:33
Gist and meaning of what Paul is getting at here. We both have to spiritualize the meaning
01:00:39
The the argument is coming from to the degree in which is spiritualized you guys are because what you're not saying is you're reading this as Literally as as you possibly can where by drinking the cup you're drinking
01:00:57
Christ's actual blood You're not saying that and you're not saying by eating the bread.
01:01:03
You're eating his flesh. You're not saying that I'm not saying that So to some degree Both views have to spiritualize this text to get the actual true meaning of it
01:01:12
I'm saying that you guys are closer to that literal reading than I am my interpretation is a more spiritualized interpretation of the text to where it's these things are an
01:01:26
Identifier of what has happened spiritually to us It is a it is a sign a symbol of what has happened to us and you guys are closer to that more literal
01:01:37
Meaning that's right because we would say that we're literally Spiritually feeding on Christ Whereas you would say not exactly
01:01:48
All right, we're saying so when And this is what so I would ask you this and the cup what what do you think he's saying by the cup and the blood and the bread and the in the right this drinking and Is he not talking about the partaking of the
01:02:05
Lord's Supper here? so yeah, I think he is but you have it just as you did you read on and Showed or we you read to us
01:02:14
Paul's analogy of where not to do it that in this case This is where you should as a Christian do it This is where you should not do it and he also talks about it's it's not the there's in and of themselves the elements are nothing
01:02:26
But but when are they something it's it's when you're doing it You're doing it in in fellowship of the of the spiritual
01:02:43
Reason and purpose that you're doing it and so and so just like if These folks that were eating off the the table in an idolatrous temple where were things were being sacrificed to idols
01:02:57
He's saying that they're they're in and of themselves those things that they were eating there is Nothing that can be harmful to them a piece of meat is a piece of meat
01:03:07
But it's it's where it's where you're partaking of it. It is the thing that's that's bad
01:03:16
So the same thing is true with the the Lord's Supper There's nothing in and of itself in and of themselves in the elements, but it's it's where you're partaking
01:03:25
The the elements but that that's why we say that It's by faith, right?
01:03:31
You know what? I'm saying like by faith we spiritually feed on Christ and where there is no faith
01:03:38
There's no spiritual feeding of Christ on Christ. Excuse me Right, so does that make sense it does and I agree with that we're spiritually feeding on Christ and you know
01:03:47
That's kind of what we were talking about earlier in the conversation. We're spiritually feeding on Christ It's a spiritual thing and these things are our signs and identifiers of what's going on Spiritually and what and who is
01:03:59
Christ Christ is the word so we're we're in the presence of the word So we're spiritually feeding on the word.
01:04:06
We're not he's Paul even says we're not there's nothing in the elements themselves that were
01:04:12
Getting nourished by we have to get nourished by the word. So you would say no, it's okay
01:04:17
I was trying to let you finish, but I just don't want to lose my my question. So so Really what it comes down to for you.
01:04:24
It's just like okay, but like at the end of the day It's just the word that what's really what really matters here, right like But I would say to you, okay
01:04:36
The word matters absolutely But if the word is really all we need then why give us
01:04:44
These these ordinances or sacraments, you know, if they don't Ultimately matter right and there's no no special presence of the
01:04:54
Holy Spirit when you partake Then what is their point, right? Let me try to say it because I'm having a horrible time
01:05:02
Trying to convince you guys of or help you guys understand what I'm trying to say. So there's there's a context
01:05:07
Paul does say that there's nothing in it on the cells. That's beneficial. They're just you know juice wine and bread
01:05:15
Or or meat whatever it is meat sacrifice. I don't it's just me. It's just bread. It's just one sure
01:05:22
It's the content. It's the context. So in the context of partaking of the
01:05:27
Lord's table You're in the context or the presence of the word of which you're you're feasting on Where the
01:05:35
Spirit uses the word to grow us in sanctification and so the context is is
01:05:43
What what makes it going back to try to answer your question? What makes the
01:05:48
Lord suffer the elements what makes them? unique It's the context in which you're partaking of them in Same thing is true with the the analogy
01:05:59
It's the context in which you're you're eating the meat that's context or Sacrificed to idols if you're doing it in the temple or if you're in the marketplace and so somebody says hey
01:06:09
Those were sacrificed to idols the context changed so you don't partake of it But if nobody said anything or if you're not in the temple, you can eat that meat
01:06:18
So it's the context in which you are partaking in the Lord's Supper And so the context where which makes the
01:06:24
Lord's Supper unique is the presence of the word Okay well, no, but but not because you don't make sense
01:06:34
I It's when I say no, I'm speaking more of a problem. I have it seems like you're you're you're you're sticking with a memorial view
01:06:42
But it seems like now you're almost adopting. This means a grace aspect. It almost seems like it in some sense
01:06:49
Yeah, cuz it's something like you'll see a sentence. I'm like, oh he's there So next one right because because I want to go back to my question right like like If if it if we're if it's all about the word, right?
01:07:05
It's all about the word. I'm still I'm having a hard time understanding Why would we have these ordinances or sacraments at all if if really what it comes down to is just by faith receiving the word
01:07:22
Now I'm not I'm not disagreeing with the fact that we do need to by faith receive the word but uh, but I still
01:07:31
You know, I just cannot be pulled away from the idea of like well, there's nothing special about the
01:07:37
Lord's Supper You know, like it's just a memorial at the end of the day. You just have to follow the word and Nothing spiritual is going on There do you know what
01:07:48
I'm saying? Yeah However, the the Lord's Supper and The in baptism are not the only commands of our
01:07:57
Lord. Sure. Sure. And so they are just We're trying to elevate them, but they're not the only commands of our
01:08:06
Lord I think of this in the spiritual presence view the means of grace view then they are
01:08:13
They are elevated, but the Lord has given us many many more commands
01:08:19
Right, but so but but Paul he speaks remember he because the Israel in the wilderness they were literally eating the manna from heaven and what it
01:08:28
Paul says it in Christ says himself in the Gospels That was they were spiritually feeding on me. I am the man that came down from heaven
01:08:36
Exactly. Remember they were literally eating but they were also spiritually in the act of the literal eating of the manna
01:08:41
They were spiritually feasting on Christ. I Think yeah, so so there was a spiritual presence, right?
01:08:49
The word was present, right? No, but he's saying John one
01:08:58
But but but Paul is saying in that acting of the eating. Yeah, there is that spiritualness presence there and again,
01:09:07
I Think all spiritual again John Calvin. He says there is a mystery to this we don't know exactly how
01:09:17
We can't pinpoint exactly how how exactly it all plays out. Sure. I think Don Calvin did it gave a good
01:09:25
Gave a good point where he says by faith by the power of the Spirit The Holy Spirit brings us
01:09:30
To heaven to spiritually feast on Christ in there in the nourishment thereof and breathe the benefits, right?
01:09:38
So it's like it's like spirit is lifting us up into the heavens and that's why Charles Spurgeon He said this was upper lowest upper is the closest thing to heaven on earth
01:09:47
Well, let's let's go back to our the beginning of conversation when you talk about baptism and you were you were trying to describe doing it in Not just in Jesus name
01:09:57
But you were talking about doing it in the in the trying name and trying God and your argument for not doing it in the name of Jesus And I think
01:10:06
Tyler came in and and agree with you and add a little bit too But the reason not to do it in in Jesus name was because in those instances where you see that in Scripture Where it says do this in Jesus name?
01:10:18
You're doing it And I'm gonna have a hard time remembering exactly how you described it, but it's
01:10:26
In in his will right because what you were saying in his will and so I think that the same thing applies here
01:10:33
I don't you know, I don't see in Scripture yet until you guys show me And help me understand better Where in the
01:10:40
Lord's Supper in the baptism it talks about there there being a spiritual presence where the chap the the passage where we do see something similar to that language is in the the the
01:10:53
Matthew 18 Where and people, you know pull this out of context and they say well
01:10:58
Well, two or three are gathered in in my name there. I am in their midst as well well that first of all that's in the context of church discipline and It's to Understand the meaning of the text is it's yes
01:11:10
He's spiritually present, but he's always spiritual present because I'll never leave us nor forsake us. What makes it special is
01:11:17
What you just how you guys described? Doing things in Jesus name.
01:11:22
You're you're like you're agreeing with Christ. You're doing it in his will So would you agree that there are moments where Christ is?
01:11:31
It's Even though he's always with us. He is there are moments where he is with us in a special sense in a way in a way not to elevate the the the
01:11:44
Lord's Supper in this context or baptism in this context, I See this is this is
01:11:51
Anytime anytime you obey Christ you are agreeing with his will and so the same thing is true the
01:11:57
Lord's Supper and baptism if you're agreeing with his will then I Don't I don't know if there's a supernatural greater presence, but there is a sense of you're following in his will and and you are the
01:12:13
Holy Spirit is growing you and Do you prefer to call them ordinances rather than sacraments?
01:12:21
probably Okay, because I I actually have no problem calling them sacraments, but I think it's because You're saying
01:12:30
I don't want to elevate the thing itself Right, so you don't elevate Christ and not
01:12:36
Not the elements or not the ceremony. Okay, which I would I would argue.
01:12:41
Well these sacraments Christ himself uses to point to himself
01:12:48
You know, and so that's why it's not In and of themselves that makes them special.
01:12:54
It's because of who is using them. Mm -hmm and how he's using them And I understand the caution right like you you want to right
01:13:06
Let's be frank, I mean it's to Roman Catholic II Right, that's the fear.
01:13:13
So my my elders at church have more of a Memorial view type of thing and they prefer
01:13:20
Ordinance and not sacrament and I'm starting to make connection. I'm like, yeah, you probably get along with them in this in this particular area
01:13:28
Same reason why they don't love doing the the Lord's Supper too frequently right there a
01:13:35
Lot of them have a a lot of when I say a lot of them a lot of the members of my church you know and I'm in Miami a lot of them have a
01:13:43
Roman Catholic background and so now they're allergic to Roman Catholicism and anything that seems
01:13:49
Roman Catholic and And You know not to not to bring this up but this kind of has to do with what we're talking about over here
01:13:58
Sam Frost you guys know who Sam Frost is, right? Anytime you tell him anything partial preterist and you tell him why full preterism is wrong
01:14:07
You you say okay look partial preterist could be true because of this is this and this and this and this but partial a full preterism is
01:14:13
Definitely wrong because of this and this and this and this you can give him a really really good case and he will say
01:14:19
That sounds like it'll lead to full preterism. Do you know why he'll say that because he had a bad experience
01:14:26
With partial with full preterism and so now any preterism at all Scares him.
01:14:33
So in other words what he is doing is using his personal experience rather than Scripture to To lead him to certain conclusions
01:14:42
I'm not accusing you of this Rob but I think what happens with a lot of people who have this fear of the word sacraments or fear of spiritually feeding on Christ and spiritual presence and all that is maybe they're saying
01:14:56
I Don't want anything Roman Catholic in my religion in my faith.
01:15:02
And so I reject that Right, so I'm not speaking of you. I'm just saying for anybody that might be listening
01:15:08
Don't reject this just because right you're having an allergic reaction to Roman Catholicism or whatever
01:15:15
Rejected because you've been convinced by the word which we if you're reading the word you will not reject it
01:15:22
I'm just I'm just a classic classic J classic J So I had to know
01:15:29
I told it I totally agree with you and that's a that's a great warning I mean we need to be aware of our influences and experiences as We read the word and and I'm totally on board on how we want to Come about our conclusions, which is from the scriptures
01:15:47
And part of this argument I think I made I made this comment Way back early on an argument how
01:15:54
I think that I'm more reformed than you guys and the reason and the reason was because If you go back before the confessions
01:16:06
If you go back to the very beginning, it was sola scriptura Sola scriptura and we have the confessions and they're they're great.
01:16:15
They're useful. They're wonderful and we're confessional But before all those things it was sola scriptura and and that's kind of what
01:16:22
J is getting at and that's kind of that's where I'm coming from. We don't Even if it is the
01:16:27
Creed's at being confessional. We want the word to tell us what God says, right?
01:16:34
And and though we can use those things as guides and be respectful to you know Those who come before us who are much wiser than we are with that in hand
01:16:46
We want to also make sure we're getting it from scripture, right? It's like I said,
01:16:55
I'm on the live with you know on our on our live with the confessions, you know What we are getting it for even though what we're quoting confessions
01:17:05
It's like we're bringing the writers of these confessions with us when we read the scripture and we're bringing I called it as we're bringing the
01:17:11
Saints with us we're reading some script because Roman Catholics and whatever tradition they'd like to blame
01:17:18
Baptist or just Protestants. Oh you guys like to do Just read your Bible on your own or meet me my
01:17:23
Bible and me and you guys don't even Do it as a whole and whatever you think it's what it is and why
01:17:29
I said well, no This is why we have confessions and with these confessions. We're bringing the Saints with us
01:17:35
Yeah to to the scriptures as a great with us in scripture and and you know
01:17:40
Elias I like to have all the Orthodox Saints with us, you know
01:17:47
We bring the confessions that hold to a spiritual means of grace for you And we bring the Saints with us the old to a memorial view because they're our our guards right against heresy
01:17:58
And so we we want to you and you know in our group. We're Talking face to face.
01:18:06
We're talking in the chat with us and the Word of God with the
01:18:11
Saints on both sides That are Orthodox in the room with us, right? And that's kind of how
01:18:16
I view our discussion. Yeah Definitely and and to speak to that I would speak to the
01:18:23
Roman Catholic do and this is why I think the Reformers and just The Reformers yeah the
01:18:30
Reformers they I think they put they placed the Lord's Supper back to its proper biblical place because obviously before and our confession stable also just even just Roman Catholics that they they they kind of idolatry's
01:18:44
I Commit an idolatry with the Lord's Supper. They they they they would put up in the air
01:18:49
They would worship at the praetor because they would think that's actually physically Christ, right? So they would commit an idolatry with it.
01:18:56
So I think the Reformers place it back to its proper biblical place place in The proper context of the worship in the church
01:19:06
There But yeah, and just to just to kind of say this
01:19:15
Whoever is listening Some good resources here. I said it on my live
01:19:21
Before I stayed on here this this resource here studying studies in Baptist history and thought more than a symbol it speaks of the
01:19:30
British Baptist recovery of baptism baptismal sacramentalism, but also speaks of the Lord's Supper and also dice already showed
01:19:39
Lord's Supper by Thomas Watson and Amidst our beloved stands for covering sacraments in the
01:19:45
Baptist tradition so these books speak of even though it sounds Roman Catholic, but our history when when when
01:19:53
Reform Baptists are coming on the scenes and making noise we had numerous numerous
01:20:00
Baptists holding to say they were saying they weren't afraid of saying the word sacraments But they were also holding to a spiritual presence means of grace
01:20:07
On the Lord's Supper, but also because a lot of people like to accuse Baptist. Oh, what about baptism? You always say what baptism is not what what is what is baptism though?
01:20:15
And in these resources help well in the early days the particular Baptist they were saying Oh, this is what baptism is not just what it is not but what it is and but it also shows to how the switch in history came about where Majority Baptist today got to a mean memorial view of the
01:20:31
Lord's Supper Because I got it I gotta be honest like especially this book it brings up even the
01:20:36
Arminian Baptist even the Arminian Baptist some of them actually held to a spiritual presence Means a grace view of the
01:20:42
Lord's Supper not as strongly as some of the reform guys But uh, but yeah so I would encourage people just to look into your
01:20:50
Baptist look into our own history and look at where where we came from what what our Spiritual brothers in the face came from what they believed
01:21:00
So even though he's gonna disagree with me The guy down on the corner. He's gonna disagree with me
01:21:06
But I would I would like to have my own J moment in response to you Elias If you're looking for let me look back here on my shelf if you're looking for any good resource
01:21:17
Resources on the memorial view. Here's the book that I would recommend What's what's what's it what did
01:21:33
Luther say this is this is We had to do that for Dan Dan said we couldn't do the lie without doing that I Love and respect all my brothers and the truth and love network
01:21:47
I love and respect you guys so much and I appreciate you guys teaching me and helping me I do have an analogy that I want to talk to you guys in the chat later on That went along with 1st
01:22:00
Corinthians chapter 10 We run out of time plus I don't want to I don't want to be a bad analogy
01:22:05
So I want to talk whatever with you guys first later on what you're saying is, you know It's not gonna be great.
01:22:11
And so you don't want to make it public maybe Rob, I would like to say because obviously
01:22:18
People just saw majority even though Jay and Tyler they they would be on my side I think people just saw majority back and forth mean team in you.
01:22:25
I would say I Appreciate for what you do. I just has a brother in Christ. Yes reminding not just me also all of us like hey like Scripture, you know, let's let's guardrails are in scripture and and just no matter what topic it could be the
01:22:40
Lord's over baptism Whatever, um, you know, it can be it whenever we're ever talking scripture Rob what robbers do you know he did we disagree, but I appreciate him reminding me
01:22:51
Hey, let's sit. Let's sit to scripture. Let's not go off into some other and not elevates some tradition over scripture
01:22:59
Right. So we're so sort or we are reformed solo script or guys and I this is why I appreciate
01:23:04
Rob for doing Amen. Yeah, and While while we're on the subject
01:23:09
Rob, I appreciate really all that you do and Tyler to Tyler just to make this this network work
01:23:19
Uh, keep it running, you know the conference everything appreciate you guys And I love everyone here, even though I'm the only one right every single on every single topic that we discussed
01:23:31
I too am extraordinarily humble Well, I'll give you the last word and if you would share the gospel and J who closes in prayer
01:23:45
I'd be glad to and to direct To our to our eyes and to our minds
01:23:53
John chapter 6 Elias had mentioned earlier with the
01:24:00
Israelites eating manna in the wilderness and what it signified what it didn't signified and what happened and what did happen didn't happen and Jesus addresses directly in John 6
01:24:16
He says you seek me not because you saw the miracles but because you did eat of the loaves and were filled
01:24:22
They were not for the meat which perishes but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life Which the
01:24:27
Son of Man shall give unto you for him hath God the Father sealed Then said they unto him.
01:24:34
What shall we do that? We might work the works of God and Jesus answered and said unto them This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he hath sent
01:24:42
Hmm what sign showest thou then That we may see and believe thee that thou
01:24:50
That does thou work our fathers did eat manna in the desert as it is written
01:24:56
He gave them bread for manna to eat and Jesus said unto them verily verily I say unto you
01:25:01
Moses Gave you not that bread from heaven But my father giveth you the true bread from heaven for the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven
01:25:13
And he give his life unto the world Then said they unto him Lord evermore.
01:25:19
Give us this bread and Jesus said unto them I am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall never hunger and he that believeth on me shall never thirst
01:25:30
But I said unto you that ye also have seen me and believe not All that the father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me.
01:25:40
I will in no wise cast out That's just as the
01:25:46
Israelites were fed They saw the sign they saw the indications, but they did not believe they didn't see through what the bread
01:25:54
Looked like to what the bread was That it was a picture of being fed by God being sustained by God of their need to be in God That that they are dependent on God and so they completely missed the point of the bread in the wilderness
01:26:11
Because it was to point to Christ the bread that comes down from the heavens wife for our benefit
01:26:17
Because while we were dead in sin Christ came down live the perfect life that you and I could never live died the perfect death that you and I could never die and Rose triumphantly from the dead after three days proven that he was
01:26:32
God in full they had power over not just life but over death and the grave that all of it is his and he ascended back into heck into heaven back to the father from whence he came and The open invitation is to Believe in the
01:26:52
Lord Jesus Christ who is the bread of life that gives life to all of us And we have the truth and love network echo that beckoning to come unto
01:27:02
Christ and find life Amen Let's pray brothers
01:27:12
Heavenly Father. I thank you for Every single one of these men. I thank you for the people that were able to tune in to this broadcast
01:27:21
Lord, I pray that we have glorified your name through this that it's not about our opinions and our thoughts
01:27:29
But that you have used your Holy Spirit to work through the words that have been said and to reach those
01:27:37
Who need to understand more of who you are and what your will for your people is? Father in heaven forgive us for our shortcomings forgive us for every sin that we commit forgive us for For the times that we don't speak according to what your word says
01:27:56
We thank you because your grace is sufficient and even though we are Imperfect.
01:28:02
You are perfect. Even though at times we are unfaithful. You are always faithful Bless these men bless everyone listening all to your glory and for the good of your people in Jesus name.
01:28:13
Amen Amen. Thank you guys so much. And thank you everybody for watching. We really appreciate it
01:28:19
Give us a like a share a love on all the social medias We appreciate that as well
01:28:24
And we hope to see you real soon April 26 to the 28th at Rep Ramada Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee At the laborers conference.
01:28:33
Hope to see you soon Thank you for joining the left. Thank you for joining the laborers podcast
01:28:40
Remember Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.