Church Discipline (part 4)

Bethlehem Bible Church

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Father in heaven we thank you this morning that you are Lord of the church that you've given us to the church that we might gather the gather together to worship you to be edified serve one another

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Father I just pray as we look to your word this morning that you would encourage us to think rightly about the church rightly about each other and how we ought to love one another prefer one another and And to consider others more important than ourselves father.

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I just pray that you would bless our time in Christ's name Amen well, we've been looking at church discipline an issue came up after class last week, and I wanted to Discuss that before we go any further

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We've been talking about church discipline and why we do it and this is gonna seem like I'm taking a little bit of a detour but I'm not really

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I I want out the person who asked me this question because it's not really a terrible thing or anything, but Was talking about after you leave a church

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How do you how do you interact with the people at that church at your former church?

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And so I was thinking about this week, and I thought you know raises in a whole other issue Why should you leave a church?

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How should you leave a church and then after you do that, how should you respond and keeping in mind that when we talk about Church discipline, what are we really discussing here?

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We're talking about The purity of the church we're talking about the unity of the church.

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We talked about factiousness how you don't want to be divisive And and really this sort of leads into this and I and I wanted to deal with this so that we wouldn't

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So that I wouldn't forget to do it later Sorry so Why should you leave a church?

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This is almost like a review of why do you pick a church? Why should you leave a church? Stephen well, let's just stop there bad doctrine bad doctrine not dealing with sin

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You know one of the things I think because when we started this whole thing What do you look for in a church right?

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And we're looking at these nine elements that you want to look at and church Discipline was one of them if you call a church you move to another area sinfully outside of the will of the

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Lord You move to a new area looking for a church, which is always backwards by the way You should look for a church and then move

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But you're looking for a new church and you call them up and you say You know, what version of the Bible are you using you ask all the dopey questions?

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Sorry, and then you say to them. Do you exercise church discipline and The woman on the phone.

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I'm sorry the pastor on the phone Says, you know something like what's that? What's that?

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We don't do that. That's well. Hang up say thank you for your time. Hang up and move on right

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Failed to deal with overt sin, they know things are wrong and they just go well, we're kind of a we're a spiritual triage

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Center We're just here to care for people to look after their needs click so you want to you want to find a church like that does these nine things and Why should you leave?

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Well, let's put it this way you get saved you go to a church and then all the things that you're learning as you grow

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In Christ and you go wait a minute. This doesn't add up to what the Bible says This is not correct.

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Well, that would be a good reason to do what to leave well,

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I think at least and this is what we're going to talk about you before you leave what should you do and Why should you leave well because they've stopped being biblical or they never were biblical and you just come to figure it out

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And that's why you know In some ways I want to compare joining a church to a marriage, but this is where the analogy falls apart

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Because it's not quite the same. I mean, you know, if you discover that your wife isn't or your husband

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I guess would be better way for me to phrase it If you find out that your husband isn't everything that you thought he was, you know, do you just leave him?

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Well, that's worldly, right? What happens if a church isn't everything that you thought it was? Should you just leave?

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Yeah, I'd say don't be surprised, you know reminds me how many of you are old enough to have watched dragnet at least in review

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Or you know in the reruns and all that stuff, you know And I'll never forget Jack Webb saying on One show, you know, he was talking about somebody some cop who would

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Committed some crime or something, you know typical cop and And he looks at the the victim of this crime and he says well he says

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I'm really sorry, but he says we work at a disadvantage and she says what's that and he goes we have to recruit from the human race and Every church has that same disadvantage

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You know, even the elders you still have to recruit from the human race We're not perfect Make mistakes.

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That's not a reason to leave a reason to leave though is when it When it either ceases to be a place where the

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Word of God is faithfully proclaimed and then acted upon Or a place that never was that and you just didn't know any better and then you find out about it

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So Let's open our Bibles to Ephesians chapter 4 and we're gonna see some principles of church life

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And then we're gonna get back to this idea of what should you do when you're leaving a church?

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And what should you do after you've left? Ephesians chapter 4 and what somebody read verses 1 to 6, please

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Go ahead, Kevin. Wait, we're already at verse 8.

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They're going on to verse 9 That's okay. They're great verses, too But you know just in the first few verses there when we see words like I mean, how many times does one show up?

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how many you know and then the idea of unity and There's this stress on unity but what's important to note about that is that Paul's writing whom a

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Church and he's stressing unity there, but it's after the first three chapters which stress what?

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first three chapters of Ephesians are Doctrine They are who you are in Christ because of what he is accomplished for you

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And he says therefore basically here's what I want you to do. And the first thing he stresses is

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Unity That oneness of the local church not oneness

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Pentecostalism but oneness unity now, we're gonna go a little bit further in the chapter to verse 25 and I'm gonna read that Talking about the practicality of how the

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Christian life is to be lived out within the body of Christ Listen verse 25 therefore having put away falsehood

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Let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor for we are members of one another

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Be angry and do not sin. Do not let the Sun go down on your anger I mean we often hear these verses applied to marriage or to interpersonal relationships

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That's all true. But the bigger context is within the body of Christ Verse 27 and give no opportunity to the devil let the thief steal no longer

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But rather let him labor Doing honest work with his hands listen so that he may have something to share with anyone in need within the body within the local church

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Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths but only such as is good for building up as Fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear and do not

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Grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander

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Be put away from you along with all malice Be kind to one another

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Tender -hearted forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you now. This is great advice

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For what for any situation I mean within a home or whatever but to think about how different Church would be if this is how everybody approached it.

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By the way, if you're gonna get a commentary on Ephesians For those who buy such things

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O 'Brien is the one to have And I'm gonna be quoting from him and then we'll be talking about it he says

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The movement of thought is from the lofty heights of learning Christ and the new creation to the nitty -gritty of Christian behavior

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Telling the truth and controlling our anger honesty at work and kindness of speech forgiveness love and sexual control each of the exhortations has to do with personal relationships within the body of Christ in Particularly they are intended to foster unity with the people within the people of God that unity of the

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Spirit which the readers have been urged zealously and energetically to maintain

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And he concludes with this thought while the evils the negative activities or attitudes actions are to be avoided

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Because they are all destroyers of human harmony. You want to split a

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Family you want to split a church? Then speak with bitterness and wrath and anger

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Slander and those principles apply not only within This local church, but they apply to how you ought to think about your previous church.

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Now, let me just clarify this. I came out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints also known as the The Mormon Church If I go to a

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Mormon church building and I stop people outside and say listen, do you know that this church teaches heresy?

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Do you know that if you listen to what this church teaches you're going to hell? Am I breaking up the unity of the body?

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No, because there's no body there that's Right. Well, there's some people there, but there's no body there.

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There's no body of Christ there There's nothing. There's no unity. No Holy Spirit seal to destroy to undo

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But if I go to a church, you know if I got saved in a church that's kind of weak and I'd go to a stronger church and then you know every

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Sunday morning. I'm outside or Sunday afternoon I'm outside my old church. That's a little bit weak and I say, you know what?

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This church is weak. This church is lame. This church is you know that pastor I Don't know frankly.

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I gotta say he can't preach a lick That wouldn't be the right thing to do.

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I shouldn't want to it if that church is in fact a church. I Should not that's right.

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I shouldn't want to Disrupt it. I shouldn't want to you know, see myself as well.

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I'm in a better place now So I'm gonna go back there and I'm gonna make sure everybody else in a better place, you know So it's kind of a subjective thing.

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How bad is the church? Are you just in a better church or were you saved out of a cult or out of a false?

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System People want to go outside the Roman Catholic Church and evangelize there.

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I don't have any problem with it If you want to go to Benny Hinn's You know crusades and evangelize outside of that great

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Bruce Yeah, and I and I think that's right and I think you know the approach

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Would be one, you know where you're gonna have friendships from that old church, right? So then how might you approach those people?

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In a way that You know, is there a way that you can say things that are just positive and yet?

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You know in other words without running down that church or anything else Is there a way that you can kind of challenge them to think about things in more depth?

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I Think there's a positive way to do it without necessarily Maligning or saying anything negative about the place that you used to go so You know, for example, you know what

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I'm learning now, you know, and you just rattle off the things that you're learning now and You know, it ought to start a conversation.

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I saw another hand. Yeah Piggy. Yeah, I think that's a great point

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I mean the more because the more Solid the church you go to is the more you learn and the more you kind of don't even know that you're learning

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You know almost by osmosis just by showing up on Sunday morning you sort of pick things up and you're able to help people in ways that Maybe you weren't even thinking that you were aware of but you can just by virtue of the additional knowledge that you're picking up you're able to help them and to help them apply the word to Specific situations good point any other thoughts on that I Mean I guess what

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I'm trying to What I would like everybody to not think about is, you know, you're not now a

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You're not a double agent You know your role isn't to be Pleasant and kind and everything while you're here at Bethlehem Bible Church, and then when you can get a hold of your old friends you know, then you're the the sower of discord and you're about your old church and everything else and I Mean if they ask you why you left

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I think it's fair to say You know, these are the issues and stuff like that, but we'll get there in a minute Looking in a verse 27 or verse or of chapter 4 talks about not giving the devil a foothold

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And he says It provides O 'Brien says it provides the motivation for dealing with anger promptly

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Why because if it is prolonged Satan can use it for his own ends exploiting the strains that develop within the

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Christian community Listen what he's talking about what Paul is talking about and what O 'Brien is kind of stressing here is our need within the body to resolve issues

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It's not right for Christians to have within a local body

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To be angry with a brother or sister in Christ and to just go. Well, that's okay.

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I'm just gonna remain angry There needs to be resolution. There needs to be peace and harmony and love in the

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Within the local body not just detente who even knows what detente is You know detente was this

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Basically this Cold War idea that we're we don't agree and we don't really like each other, but we're not gonna nuke each other

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That's that Christian My work in the political world doesn't really work in the Christian world verse 29

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Christians should not only keep their lips free from lying but he goes on to say that We shouldn't use on a wholesome language of any kind O 'Brien says

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Paul's exhortation is Comprehensive it is directed to all his readers to who have put on the new man and stresses that no word

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They utter should be harmful In fact that word he says In other places listen to this

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Matthew 7 17 8 and 18 Where it says what is the exact word in the corrupting talk in the

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ESV? I think it's unwholesome in other translations. Listen to what it means in other places in Matthew 7 verses 17 and 18 when

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Jesus is talking he talks about a rotten tree a Decayed tree which produces rotten fruit

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In Matthew 12 verses 33 and 34 talks about rotten fish So, you know, do you want to use rotten spoiled language, you know something that just it just kind of Befouls the air when you say it.

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No No, and we should not want to be that kind of person and he says by contrast the

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Christians words should be well chosen so that they may edify others and have a Beneficial effect on them and there really is no excuse for not doing that.

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You have the Holy Spirit And so I talked last I mentioned edifying language.

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Well, what is edifying language? What does it mean to? Build one another up to encourage one another

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How does that work out? Peggy Encourage them in the word.

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Absolutely Okay scripture first Brian a word that seeks the other person's betterment.

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I like that a lot, you know I have when I do marital counseling, I like to you know, just have everybody

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I call it the 10 -second rule It's not even a 10 -second rule. It seems like a long time You know, you're having a talk with somebody and you take a minute to think about what you're gonna say now

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How long do you really take is there a minute? No, but sometimes it could seem like an hour because you know anytime someone asks you a question and there's a little pause you're like I Mean if you're on the phone you go did

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I lose a connection? Hello? Did you get dropped and it happens after a couple seconds? But let me just say this and I've said this before and I'll say it exactly the same way.

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I've said it before Once you say something guess what? You can't take it back. There's no reeling it back in.

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I've said things Especially before I got saved That I wish

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I'd never said But you can't unring that Bell. You can't pull it back and What I encourage people to do is to just think what is the result gonna be of me saying this?

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What is my husband wife child? You know, sometimes we say things to our children because they don't really count

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What is the result of this and if you think here's my goal is to build that person up to focus them on Christ To build unity within the body to say nothing that will tear us apart

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Will you say the first thing that's on your mind? Well, you might

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If the Holy Spirit is still working in you that the first thing you say is scriptural. It's edifying It's building them up it's positive

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It's true, right? You don't want to lie just to build somebody up I mean, I'm not suggesting, you know, you kind of go

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Joel Osteen on people. I'm only gonna say positive things That's not the point. That's not building somebody up.

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That's lying to them, but you want to turn their eyes, you know

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Here's what's really easy to do. I Mean, there are a lot of things that are easy to do one is you know, boy you think you got problems?

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I got problems. Let me just tell you about my problems enough of your problems. That's easy to do

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It's also easy to do what to just kind of build up that I know what you mean boy if I had to live like you

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Neither of those are very edifying What we need to be doing is thinking unity thinking for the betterment of the person focus them back on Christ that's how we ought to be thinking and so again

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To get back to this idea of okay, I've left a church I'm talking to somebody from that church.

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What do I want to do? I want to seek their their good. I want them to have

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You know what? Here here's I mean, it is kind of a difficult thing. I can't

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I Mean, I'm sure I wouldn't get it all right either. But when you're sitting with somebody you don't want to be

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Some kind of agent of discord or something like that But you also don't want to just tell them whatever it's gonna take to make them go away and just keep them in that church

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If it's really, you know bad enough for you to have left. You ought to want others to leave too if that Will help them

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So I think the main thing is you just have to think what's in this person's best interest according to what the

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Bible says I want to build them up by that standard Now, let's just briefly talk about how to leave a church

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Talked about why you know, they no longer or never did hold the biblical standards and you just became aware of it

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Some of the things that you ought to think about Is talking to the elders or pastors letting them know why you are leaving

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You know again, we're not perfect or anything like that, but I'll tell you it it does kind of And I don't want any pity parties, but it's kind of hurtful when somebody sends you a handwritten note that says

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We're resigning our membership with their keys and they just mail it here. We're done.

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What? You know, we had no idea there was a problem. Yeah, here are our keys.

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See you later And we've had all kinds of experiences that are that are just odd But you want to go and tell them

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I mean it could be that when you bring this about Or when you bring it to the elders or pastors attention whether it's here or somewhere else that they say, you know

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What we know that and that's something that we want to address They could say you're an error brother.

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Let me show you what the Bible says Right. I mean you could be wrong. And what do you always want to do?

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We talked about church discipline in the very beginning The goal of church discipline is love or our motivation is love and our goal is restoration but what do we want to do before we even start the process of Confronting someone about their own sin we want to examine ourselves, right?

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So the same thing here you want to examine yourself and make sure that you're thinking rightly thinking that you have the right motives

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Any other thoughts about leaving a church Because if not, then

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I'm gonna go back to church discipline Yes, Harry Okay, good good, that'll be helpful

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Yeah, I mean it is funny right you you don't talk to much of anybody anymore You know, how do you discipline your kids you text them?

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I'm really disappointed in you, you know, come see me in my office And your kid writes back lol, you know and that and that's a great point, you know

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They could just sit down that was an excellent point, you know You can go to the elders and or the pastors there and they could say well, you know what your view of Scripture is wrong

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And here's why you know, and they might have Convictions of their own but you know what?

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That's all the more reason what? For you to leave because you could both read the same text of Scripture and go

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I don't agree and these aren't we're not talking about You know how often the

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Lord's Supper should be done or the color of the drapes or whatever We're talking about major issues.

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Like how should the gospel be preached? You know, how how should we view worship our worship services?

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Etc, etc. So and when you look at core Biblical issues and you're just like, okay, the pastors and the elders are over here and I'm over here

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It's time for me to move I don't want to be disruptive here it's time for me to leave so that would be

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That's exactly the point other thoughts or questions or comments on that Stephen I'll get you you

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John. Well it that's a great question.

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You know, what do you do with somebody a Christian who's in a church? we're either the

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Message every single Sunday is the gospel the gospel the gospel, which is Good. I mean, it's good to get the gospel, but there are other things, you know, we come to Equip the

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Saints for the work of ministry. You mentioned Colossians 128 Our goal as elders is to you know, make you complete so that you'll stand in Christ complete

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We want to equip you for every good work So If you know people that are at a church that doesn't do that or you know every

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Sunday morning they go and they're like You know after seeing our church do play after play after play after play

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I'm kind of wondering are we are we ever gonna get around to teaching the Bible and you say something like well

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There's a church I go to where they do teach the Bible. It's called Bethlehem Bible Church You Know would that be right and I think the

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I think the answer is yes, because if someone is Starving as you kind of put it for the word, then what do you do?

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You say well, there are places where you can go and get fed the word So, yeah,

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I think that would be the right thing to do in that case Joanie and and that's exactly right

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I mean there are times that's a great point Jenny there are times where somebody may from a previous church will come up to you and say why did you leave?

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And again, I think we get back to the edifying part. It's a judgment call.

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But the question is is You know if I say what the reasons I left is it going to help this person or not?

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Well, it may but they may may be coming at me from the attitude of they want to argue me back to their church and You know, is that gonna wind up edifying either one of us?

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I don't think so So you could say I'd rather not talk about it Tom Well, and I think that's important,

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I mean you need to tell the truth, but I Think and and again, I don't want to say that you're you're not wrong

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Because I want to be politically correct. No, I I Just think that there are points where you know, it's just gonna be situation dependent.

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There are gonna be situations where We're saying

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Something is going to be helpful And there are gonna be situations where maybe it isn't and you're gonna have to judge those for yourself flow

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Right, and I and I guess flow. I think that's what I was trying to get at I mean, I I think what you want to do is say it's okay to say the reasons that you left and It's okay to say the concerns that you had and the way that you perceive things

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I think what The the difficulty comes about unless it is an absolute false or a place where Lies are taught

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You have to kind of walk that line exactly what you're saying, you know of thinking okay, if I say this then is this just is she just or he gonna take this back and you know,

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Am I just launching an indirect? missile You know at this church and I don't

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I don't think you want to do that. I certainly wouldn't want to do that. But again, it depends I mean if I was talking to the

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Mormons and they said, you know And I talked to one of them and they said well,

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I don't agree with that I'm gonna take it back to my elders. I'd go fine. Take it back to him. You know, I I hope it does split your assembly there

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So, so I I really think it is a question of being innocent as Doves and shrewd as serpents or however, that thing goes, you know

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I I think you just want to be really careful and thoughtful about what you say And it may be for a long time that you basically say what flow said, you know

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I don't want to talk about it because I don't really have a good an answer that is I know why

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I left But I don't know how to frame my answer in such a way that it's not going to cause you additional problems

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Charlie and I think that's a great point.

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I mean you have to be winsome you have to be You don't want to come off as well here here, you know just like well, you know once I Became aware of the doctrines of grace

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I realized that all you people you little all you little people were

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Delusional and I had to flee, you know from immorality and So when you're ready to leave, let me know.

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I mean, you know, it's just like Insert head reduce PSI, you know, I mean or insert needle reduce

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PSI Harry Yes Yeah, what about a national

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Calvinist coming out day? It's a Yeah, and I and I think you know it all gets back to I I'm just trying to say that, you know, it takes some wisdom.

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So it sort of depends on your Relationship with a person your understanding of that person, you know and the frame of reference that they're coming to you with it may be genuine curiosity

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It may be that they sense something is wrong at the church too, and they want to know why you're leaving

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They just can't articulate quite what it what it is, and maybe you'll help them and it may be

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That they just think that you're wrong So I think it's important to sort of discern that and frame your answer in that way and like I said,

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I go back to what flow said if you're not at a place where you think you can articulate it without just either offending them or Unnecessarily offending them.

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Let's just say it that way or You know your words are not gonna be edifying or whatever then just don't say it

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Just wait, it's okay But I think Charlie has a great point too when he says, you know, the people are getting saved in that church

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That's really that kind of the dividing line for me where I would not want to say Negative things about the church if it is a place where the gospel is preached.

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Can people go there? I mean, it's like the place I was at this this Easter Where they had this special, you know

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Park thing and I was out there in, California And it is not a church that I would choose because I was there another time

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It's not a church. I would choose to be at every week But there I was an Easter Sunday morning at the park and he preached the gospel

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You know, was it? Everything I possibly could have wanted no, but I'm just listening.

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I'm going okay, you know Sin, you know God man

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Christ. What did he do? You know and so I thought okay somebody could get saved listening to that message

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What I want to study die that no, does that mean it's a heretical church and I should be trying to pry people out of there

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No But if people come to me and they want more than I'm going to point them in the direction of more so You know the questions or comments

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Tim Well, that's a great question

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And that's something I hadn't even considered with regard to this church in California because I'm not around there enough to know

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Well, actually I do know That they do Practice church discipline at least in some cases

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So, you know does the church practice church discipline and is it a church if it doesn't?

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What do you think? Is it a church that doesn't practice church discipline? I don't think so Well, I'll go ahead okay,

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I don't know let's say maybe it was an immature church and maybe these are immature churches, but Mature churches are going to practice church discipline.

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Now. Does that mean you know practice? We're gonna pick somebody to practice on this month Thank you.

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Yes, you can exist in a church like that and still be saved. That is true to call people out of it

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I I still go back to the same thing. I mean it has to do with you know Are you going to build them up?

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Are you going to edify them? Individually now if they say well what's different about your church than our church?

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Well that gives you an opportunity to talk about church discipline and things that they don't do You know

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Charlie well, and it's a it's a fine line

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Sometimes the baby isn't in the bathwater by by the way, but it's it's kind of a it's kind of a fine line

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Because you and you said it, you know, what happens when a church loses its first love what happens when the church is openly?

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tolerating sin Because they don't know what else to do you know and Then there's a real problem in it and it is an immaturity and you know can churches

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Let's put it this way just like us in our own lives We're either moving toward godliness towards Christ likeness not perfectly

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Like MacArthur says it's the direction not the perfection and there will be times where we just think

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I can't do anything, right? but a church should be moving that same or is moving in that a

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Direction they're either moving forward and they're moving back You know and as soon as they started saying well, you know what?

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It is really unloving to do this or that or the other thing Then then there's a there's a problem.

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Yeah Yeah, and and this is true throughout history.

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Mm -hmm. If you just look at excuse me, the 21st the 20th century 20th century

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American Church There were a lot there were a lot of fights and denominational splits over Inconsequential things and then there were fights and denominational splits over essentials, you know the deity of Christ You know all the the sufficiency of Scripture, I mean when you when you look especially at maybe the

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Presbyterian Church the United States Presbyterian Church of the

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United States of America it was once a Denomination that preached the word and then it just gradually fell into you know nothingness and then you had the

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PCA and the OPC and other denominations split off from it why because There were believers within the denomination.

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They said we cannot stay with the unbelievers anymore and so they left and You know, those are those are good issues

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And yeah, I would say that churches are either going one way or the other just like we are in our own lives

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Anyway, we need to call it here and we'll get back to church discipline next week And then we'll talk about I think what's our next thing that we're going to talk about Wow, we've got a still some more on church discipline, but eventually we'll get out of church discipline

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Probably probably next week will be it. So let's go ahead and pray father. We just thank you

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For the local body for the church for your institution of it father, I pray for Bethlehem Bible Church as a as a body

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That we would be drawn closer to what you would have us to be Father individually, would you work that out in our own lives that we would seek to build up one another?

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that we would seek to Build up the congregation as a whole that we would be mindful of the needs of our brothers and sisters that we would

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Put their needs in front of our own and and think about how we might Love them and and serve them and Father, I just pray that you would grow us ever closer together as a church family in Christ's name.