Dan Barker and Matthew 16:18

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

00:37

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:50

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon the last dividing line of the week.

00:58

Of course, there's only two So one of them's got the first and the other one's got the last but it's a windy day here in Phoenix If you are not a

01:11

Person blessed with weight. You need to be a little careful out there could be sort of dangerous, but That's nice.

01:18

It's actually sort of nice and nice and cool outside and we get this around this time of year blows all the

01:26

Leaves out of my yard and I don't have to worry about them that way they end up in somebody That's Well used to blow your leaves into my yard, but now it's somebody else's leaves that it blows in my yard.

01:37

So anyway, but Anyway, it's a gorgeous day outside I'm gonna enjoy the cool while we can because I can guarantee you that Sun's getting up earlier and earlier and earlier and the more time it has to cook us

01:50

It's not gonna be long before we will be cooking Anyway, I wanted to start off the program today and well invite your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one but I Want to start off go weeks ago

02:06

I was riding and I was listening to a very recent lecture because it mentions the inauguration of Barack Obama in the past tense, so This had to have been sometime late

02:19

January February this month and This is Dan Barker.

02:27

I am still waiting for the information to get to me And we didn't blog anything this afternoon.

02:33

It's so easy to get sidetracked when you get older, but We are going to blog something and still need to blog something because I need something to be able to refer to as far as a

02:47

Bookstore item. I don't think we've gotten to that quite yet But maybe as long as people aren't calling calling the program then rich will have time to put the the chips aside

03:01

But We've been trying to work something out for a while and I've made a commitment to be there now

03:08

And it's just a matter of getting the details and getting your assistance As most of you know, we're going to Milwaukee at the very beginning of May Still trying to work out some of the details on that as far as order of things and Actually the the folks there at the

03:28

Islamic Society had contacted a local Baptist Church and wanted to split the debates between the two

03:33

I really didn't want to do that. I would rather do them both at the Islamic Society personally And the folks at the

03:40

Baptist Church Didn't want us to debate. They want us to talk about similarities between Islam and Christianity and I'm just like, you know

03:51

No, no, thank you. I you know, we want to address the real issues. Let's address the real issues

03:57

Let's let's talk about the New Testament and in the next night let's talk about the Quran or if we have to do it on one day, you know,

04:04

I guess we can go for the marathon thing, but Let's let's not give in to this.

04:11

Oh, can't we all just get along? type of Christianity that's out there That I just don't think is honoring to the truth at all, but anyway then a few weeks ago

04:24

One of our regulars and channel Happened to just mention in passing that he had been contacted by some atheists in the

04:33

Champaign -Urbana Area who are looking for someone to debate Dan Barker now. I've played a couple

04:38

Dan Barker clips we played the debate between Dan Barker and Doug Wilson and It was right at that time that I saw this and I said well when do they want to do a debate?

04:48

Well at the end of April the the very last Thursday in April and I'm trying to see a

04:56

Way, there's no way that a wall calendar the little April thing. I think it's the 29th I think I think

05:02

April 29th is the last Thursday in in April and So I said well, you know, how far is it from the

05:12

Champaign the 30th, okay How far is it from Champaign -Urbana to Milwaukee and it's it's a good drive

05:20

But it's not it's certainly drivable. And so I said tell you what, let's see if we can let's see if we can make this happen and so we've been working on that and I finally heard from the

05:34

Students the atheist students and I said they've said well, you know, we haven't found a Christian sponsor yet And so I'll tell you what don't worry about I'll get myself there and you know, don't worry about me

05:44

I just want to make sure the debate takes place and to be honest with you I I'm not looking for a a church sponsorship or a group sponsorship for a simple reason if I'm gonna be debating

05:56

Dan Barker, I need to debate Dan Barker as I need to debate Dan Barker and I can't think of but a few campus groups that could possibly

06:06

Support the way that I would argue in regards to being a reformed apologist and I don't want to be spending more time fighting that battle with Armenians Than in actually engaging in the debate that just that just seems very very counterproductive to me and So we are going to be putting a an item in the bookstore

06:32

And basically asking those of you who support the ministry help to get James to Champaign -Urbana

06:38

All it's not a huge. We don't even know what it's gonna cost yet We got to figure out the tickets and stuff, but it's not gonna be all that huge To get a flight there.

06:48

I believe that my flight back is going to be covered by The the second debate that I'd be doing this the other two debates with at the

06:57

Islamic Society But so there there would be the cost of flying out there'd be a rental car one night's hotel and And my extremely expensive taste in food, which anyone who knows me is chuckling there

07:11

I think there's a taco time and in I Love taco time.

07:20

Yeah, that's great. Does Chris meet burritos? Oh, man, they're they're great But hey as long as there's a

07:26

McDonald's nearby all as well, so See anybody who's had me in a friend or foe just chuckles at the at the mentioning of food but anyway, we'll we'll be blogging that and so right now the plan is and Until I've got you know exact location and the order of debate and stuff.

07:51

I'm a little bit leery, but The plan is right now to Have the debate with Dan Barker on the existence of God in the

08:00

Champaign -Urbana area on the 30th And then I guess it would be the 31st is there is is that the the next day of the

08:08

Friday? So May 1st, so these okay. So the other debates the 2nd and 3rd, okay, then

08:14

I may first drive To Milwaukee and then the debates that weekend with dr.

08:20

Zofukar Ali Shah, so That's gonna make for a really interesting weekend no two ways about it, but It's interesting

08:30

It's gonna be interesting to see what the dynamics of something like this are and especially going from atheism to dealing with Islam And in that short period of time, so we'll be putting that up on on the blog along with a

08:44

Announcement that we have a few. I'm not sure how many I signed all of them But I should have counted them, but we have a number of copies of the current edition of the

08:55

King James only controversy Available and yeah, the new additions could be out next month

09:00

So you might go out and I could buy those but I've signed this once you can put on eBay As people have done in the past And yeah, the next edition will be 32 pages longer and updated and stuff, but the information is still there

09:14

So you've got something now Okay, so there's that there is in the in the shopping cart right now in Donation for travel, but I'll tell you come up with some you come up with some titles that just pull people in man.

09:28

I You and I both have marketing degrees from somewhere So look for donation for travel isn't that a

09:40

We can at least make a donation for debate travel or something, you know just travel would be like Yeah, he wants to go visit some friends someplace.

09:48

You know wants to go see the sights. Yeah, I'm always doing that kind of thing. So Yes, well at least this way we can use it again in the future for other things it's just a generic donation for travel and this time the description describes champagne

10:05

Urbana and Milwaukee and atheism and Islam cool

10:15

All right, so that's in you go to the store on the website I will provide a link directly to it on the blog once I get done with this

10:23

Lord willing I do have class this evening. So we'll hopefully get it done before we head home tonight

10:30

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. So be please be praying about those upcoming debates

10:35

I think they'll be most useful quite a range of things we have covered over the past Six months or so between the the

10:45

London debates, which I'm trying I'll even I've even been making phone calls I even left voice messages trying to get all the folks that have the tapes, you know, even saying well look, you know

10:55

If we can't do the editing, could we get the editing? Could we get the raw raw tapes? we just need to have something because I put a lot of effort into all those debates and still don't have anything on them and we got a guy to get those things and Then I believe we said next what's for three what they date is the third of April next

11:16

Friday next Friday is when we hope to get the DVDs on the Bart Ehrman debate and we have put that up I noticed a lot of folks linked to the the citing of the

11:27

PDF for some odd reason I Saw a bunch of blogs that that made reference to the the posting of the

11:35

PDFs From the debate so and in fact The guy who can never ever ever say anything nice about me at all actually said something nice about my debate with with Bart Ehrman No, no,

11:50

Steve. No, that would be a good description of Steve Ray, wouldn't it? But no someone else who remained nameless for the moment, but it said something nice about that Anyway, before we start taking any phone calls,

12:01

I want to play a section of this talk that Dan Barker gave and You know

12:08

Dan Barker likes to talk about how you know, no one can tell me I wasn't a Christian I felt it. I did all these things, but I'd like you to listen with me to Dan's own now.

12:18

This is he's talking to a skeptic society here and so it's it's in -house shall we say and He's talking about his relatively new book called godless

12:31

From Ulysses Press, it's a fairly lengthy work here and Yeah 2008

12:40

Even Richard Dawkins a copyright his forward In this particular book, which is interesting, but I'd never seen a forward copyrighted separately from somebody else.

12:51

But anyway Dan is talking about Richard Dawkins writing the forward to his book and then he gets into his methodology of being an evangelist and What kind of experience was his now?

13:07

He wasn't he's proud to have been involved with Catherine Coleman and so on and so forth, but just listen to what he describes as the means by which

13:18

He would do evangelism and I think you'll see the reason why I I play this and why

13:23

I will say to Dan if it comes up, whatever you were involved with it doesn't give you a

13:31

Foundation and a basis for saying that you were involved with biblical Christianity you were involved with in a form of emotionalism

13:40

But well just just listen for yourself Well, that was me it was your lucky day

13:49

When God directed you to sit next to me on a bus Because I believed that everything worked together for good

13:56

Everything was God Jesus was coming any moment in the time It could be like a thief in the night and if we could just get one more person saved

14:04

I did not view myself as a pest. I viewed myself as the answer to your innermost desires whether you knew it or not

14:10

It was really lucky that you could meet someone like me because God had ordained me He had called me to be a minister

14:17

The time was short and the Bible says go ye into all the world and preach the gospel So what I was doing as a fundamentalist was this positive thing and it was a brave thing because I knew

14:26

I might suffer some ridicule from you blind non -believing skeptics who have no joy or purpose in your life and I would

14:34

I would have thought that once you met me or someone like me or another Christian and you felt the Spirit of God and you saw the peace and the love that I had that you

14:41

Would immediately say wow, what does he have and I want that? That's how we think that's

14:46

I think that's how most Evangelical religionists believe in all the religions whether you're Mormon or or Muslim and I've met a lot of wonderful Muslims Or whatever there was this feeling that I was called

14:59

I was 15 years old. I'd already been born again I'd already I knew I was saved because I confessed my sins.

15:06

I had asked Jesus to come into my heart I had accepted his death on the cross as payment for my sins and his resurrection from the dead was evidence that I would then

15:14

Have eternal life in heaven and I humbly confess the sinner and I asked him to make me a new creature and I've I've truly

15:20

Felt born again. The Bible says it's by by faith that happened. So I didn't have any problems with Was I saved or not?

15:28

I knew I was saved I knew it's born again, but I was 15 and what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? very short life before Jesus came again because All the preachers were saying it could be the signs are now

15:40

Jerusalem has been restored and now like, you know You could see the signs and it could be any time how

15:45

Lindsay the author of the late great planet Earth assured us Back in the early 1970s that the second coming of Jesus would be no later than the mid 1980s

15:54

He was so confident about that and we were thinking and I was thinking that late I was thinking it should be like maybe tonight and I would go out on the street then and I would preach and you know

16:04

I would ask people If you sat next to me in the bus after we chit -chatted for a while I Would turn and then

16:10

I would look at you and I would say and it's kind of amazing how Effective these crude techniques are but they work if you want to be an evangelist and a preacher

16:20

Then just do it because most of the time it works people are said seem to be susceptible or gullible to this thing

16:26

I'd look over at you and I'd say You know what? Excuse me for saying this but I can see that you have some real struggles in your life right now.

16:33

Don't you? How does he know? You know what you're having a problem with a relationship in your life right now, aren't you?

16:45

How does he know? Yes Yes, I am and You know,

16:50

I used to feel the same way. I know how you feel. Sometimes it's like there's no There's no meaning.

16:55

You don't you feel like you're in the dark. You don't know what to do What answers there are and you know, you're not sure and you're wondering what it's all about.

17:03

Well, you know, there is an answer There is and you know And if you speak like that with confidence you speak out like with authority

17:12

With or without the preacher voice that some people put on, you know But if you speak like that an awful lot of people are gullible for that Maybe most of you are not in this room and some people

17:23

I've dealt with over the years actually were not but they were very Very few I had a couple doors slammed in my face and I had a couple of people laugh

17:30

But most people they think if it's religious and he's a man of God Well, what do

17:35

I know and he's telling me these things and there's this kind of magical rhetoric rhetorical thing that you can do

17:41

And how else can you explain? the growth of religious like Mormonism The Mormons from Utah went over to England and went up to people on the street and convinced them to move back to Utah With him, how did they do that?

17:54

What words did they use? What kind of techniques? The techniques of evangelism and proselytizing are are really not that difficult

18:02

Say it with confidence Say it with a smile with it, you know Because a lot of people don't know and they see somebody who does and then oh look at that community of people

18:12

How happy they are how giving how loving they are? Oh, I want to join that group and be a part of a family too because my family sure sucks

18:20

I don't know my parents, you know, but I can be in this group that really totally just embraces me

18:26

There and that happens in all religions. I've seen it among Jews at a bar mitzvah or at a wedding.

18:31

I've seen Muslims That way they're so kind and loving with each other and then you see it with Pentecostal You see it with all sorts of groups of believers and not and you even see it among atheists when atheists get together

18:43

There's that kind of feeling like we're a family and this is you know We like to be with other and we like to give to each other. It's human nature.

18:49

I Started preaching when I was 15 took my Bible to class and I took a

18:54

Spanish Bible class, too because we heard that our Spanish teacher was some kind of Agnostic or something and eventually he called me into his classroom once after class and said

19:04

Dan You've been reading your Bible in class. I Said yeah, but it's a Spanish Bible And he said

19:12

Well, then maybe you can help me and he almost broke down in tears. So I've been searching for something

19:18

You know, I've been seeing that maybe there is something to these ESP or whatever there must be a transcendent realm out there

19:24

What do you believe I talked with him for a while and after a few weeks, he became a born -again Christian He was one of the first he wasn't my first like person that I led to Jesus But he was one of the first and that was very affirming.

19:35

We started this campus high school campus group of Bible study and I traveled with teams all through the southwest out into Mexico I eventually spent about two years in Mexico preaching the gospel trying to convert

19:49

Catholics into Christians and And it worked

19:54

I Learned though that you have to say something about Mary. Just mention the word

20:00

Mary in your sermon and you've got him And you know because they're the culture the whole idea of the

20:07

Madonna mother worship of Mary and all that stuff that's in me even a lot of Catholics all around the world.

20:13

There's this thing about Mary so I Remember once when I was first learning Spanish.

20:18

I didn't I wasn't that good at it. I went down into Forget where if it's Tijuana or somewhere below the border and I went up to this group of guys on the street corner.

20:28

I said I came here from California and I came here to talk to you about Jesus.

20:34

Do you know Jesus and the guy said Yeah, he lived down around by the pharmacy

20:40

And That was actually fun

20:45

I loved doing that and to see people come and get saved and to change and to confess and to become

20:50

Christians and all of That I thought it was just an amazing thing But I thought

20:56

I was never going to live long enough to go to college or have a family because Jesus was coming any minute Any time he was coming and maybe one more day

21:04

I can live for him But I did live long enough to go to college. I went to Azusa Pacific Eventually got a degree in religion with a little almost a minor in Bible Greek New Testament Greek Which doesn't mean

21:17

I'm a great expert in New Testament Greek But I know enough about it to use a lexicon and pretty much understand the

21:22

Greek text Which isn't that hard to do actually? And it isn't that hard to realize that even all the experts in Greek disagree with each other

21:31

I'm a lot of these translations, but in any event, it sure peppered my sermons a lot to be able to throw in some Greek words

21:37

Sometimes for no reason at all I would just say you know Paul said he was a slave of Christ and in the

21:43

Greek that word slave is doulas Okay And it

21:50

I guess it gave a certain credibility You know to explain things in the original because how many people know the original how many people even read it in English?

21:58

Much less the so -called original. I thought there was an original back then there isn't but I thought there was but I I graduated

22:07

I was a director of a number of musical groups That traveled around and performed and we did church meetings

22:15

It was very rare to have a weeknight that I was not out somewhere preaching I was a piano player, and there's a you know how the religions like to put their

22:23

Their active young people up front so I was one of those people up front And you know it's like you want to attract other youth so you use the youth to attract other youth and it worked

22:31

And I graduated and I became an associate pastor of Three different churches one was a friend's church

22:41

Which was my wife's denomination? And I was there for a year and a half and they the friends are like the modern -day

22:49

Quakers and in California they're more evangelical than the Eastern Quakers and Then after that I went into a assembly of God Church Which is quite different if you know anything about the denominations assemblies of God or Pentecostal which was more like my upbringing charismatic upbringing

23:05

Pentecostals had a lot of speaking in tongues Praying in the spirit a word of knowledge

23:14

Prophecy faith healing once I was down in Mexico City with a team Four guys

23:21

Gary Ralph and Steve and I Ralph and Steve are dead now But and Gary and I are still in touch.

23:26

We're still a good good friends, and he's a strong born again But one night we took turns preaching and and we had this quartet that we sang and what one night

23:36

Gary said And so we you know before every meeting we would get together like in a huddle and just pray for God's blessing and before we go out to do the meeting and win souls and and Gary couldn't talk so I've just felt like well, you know isn't

23:55

God real doesn't the Bible say the prayer of faith will save the sick Doesn't the Bible say all things whatsoever you shall ask for believing you shall receive right?

24:04

So I laid my hands on Gary's shoulder, and I said Gary in the name of Jesus be healed and Gary said praise the

24:11

Lord And he went up and he sang and he preached and he made it through that whole evening and boy did

24:17

I see a miracle If you're a believer like that and you and you pray for that and you see things like that happen, of course looking back on it

24:25

I realized that I'm playing this game Statistics game. I'm only remembering the hits right?

24:31

I'm forgetting the 99 times. I prayed and nothing happened, right? We don't we don't count those business

24:36

There's some other spiritual lesson to be learned from that but when you pray and something like that does happen. Yes, it's proof

24:41

It's proof and I saw I had a lot of proofs of Christianity Someone about three or four months ago came up to me after I was giving this talk and said, you know what

24:49

Dan? There is a thing that and I forget the word she she was a scientist Laryngeal spasm.

24:54

Does anybody know about that that can happen when you're nervous of stage fright where your larynx can actually

25:00

Freeze up and you can't talk But if you'll relax do some relaxation or biofeedback or something you can then regain your voice

25:08

So maybe something like that is what happened with Gary. I don't know but whatever it was that happened It's irresponsible to jump to a supernatural

25:16

Conclusion I'm sort of running out of time. We've got a phone call. I want to get to but After this he tells a story about writing a musical which is still available by the way

25:25

In fact as he says he continues to get royalties from it, even though he's now an atheist Called Mary had a little lamb.

25:32

It's Christmas musical for kids, which I guess you can still purchase even to this day and how

25:40

The the person at the music company that bought it from him, you know He only played a few notes and the guy, you know had this spiritual experience

25:48

This could be one of our bestsellers blah blah blah blah. Well, what do you what do you take from all of that?

25:53

Well, obviously You know Dan feels very strongly that he was a born -again, but listen to that evangelistic methodology

26:04

What was it? Looking at someone on a bus and saying I can tell that you're having some real struggles in your life right now

26:13

Come on They teach that to to the used car salesman, okay

26:20

Because that's that's a no -brainer is The only person who's not struggling with any relationships right now is a person who lives in a lead mine alone

26:28

Okay, and then if even if he has a pet he's still struggling with the relationship That's it is this this methodology that he utilized.

26:36

I heard nothing in there about the gospel I heard nothing in there that would demonstrate any kind of understanding of of anything in fact later on he describes his degree from Azusa Pacific as a little more than a

26:50

Sunday school and so Unfortunately what he's talking to us about is an extremely common kind of evangelicalism

27:00

There are a lot of people that are exactly where Dan Barker was and While most of them don't become atheists because I think it's just simply unnatural for most people to go to that point

27:15

Still the the depth of their their commitment to the gospel or even their understanding of Christianity is so shallow and and so unbiblical and so pretty much based upon tradition

27:30

That functionally, what is the difference between them and a Roman Catholic? Both are just functioning upon tradition they're different traditions and maybe in some instances the tradition might have enough truth in it to you know to To get you by but the fact of the matter is it's still this this very much experiential touchy -feely type of a situation and so when he says look

27:55

I I've been where you are I Believed what you believe? No, that's not that's not the case

28:02

You know, I think it is more honest moments Dan would say well, okay Yeah, there's there's a lot of differences and and I didn't believe what

28:11

Douglas Wilson believed or what James White believes I I came from a very very very different You know perspective than that but still

28:24

That's the kind of argumentation he generally he generally presents and so when I was listening to that and I was listening to this

28:32

Idea of of you know, I'm sure you're struggling with some relationships And I used to and let me tell you how

28:38

I got out of all that blah blah blah blah I couldn't help but think about how many programs there are

28:46

That encouraged that very kind of approach that you never find in the pages of inspired scripture

28:51

You never find the Apostles Utilizing this kind of foundation upon which to allegedly sort of tack the gospel onto the the end of a

29:06

Well a sales technique. I mean, that's really what it is. And I've been taught sales techniques not within the

29:12

Reformed Baptist Church but I Have been taught all sorts of sales techniques within the context of the

29:20

Southern Baptist Convention and you know, we didn't necessarily use the same terminology, but I know enough about sales about closing the deal and there's all sorts of ways that you can close the deal by Manipulating people's emotions and their current situation their life and all the rest this type of stuff.

29:40

That's not evangelism and The problem is it generally creates religiously abused unregenerate hypocrites

29:49

That we then try to treat them as if they're Christians and You fill a church with folks like that and you got a real problem

29:58

So there you go I thought it was you know, you need to listen to where these folks are coming from and Dan's a good speaker

30:04

He's a clear speaker incredibly intelligent man He you know member of Mensa and all these

30:09

I think it's Prometheus Society or something where you have to have this Incredibly high

30:14

IQ blah blah blah blah Obviously, this isn't an issue of of intellect.

30:21

It is very clearly an issue issue of spirit 877 -753 -3341.

30:28

We've got to one caller online. We'll take your calls as well Once we come back from our break here on the divine line.

30:34

We'll be right back It's not an easy way it's a journey to Deep Following Jesus Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources pastors

31:21

You'll appreciate the phrase matching tool Which will allow you to find all of the verses containing phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon

31:30

Preparation seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope

31:36

Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences scholars your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a

31:47

Handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your computer as well as the internet. Dr James White says

31:53

Bible works is the best Bible software available I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program

32:00

This is the program that runs 24 7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when

32:06

I engage In debates, it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text for over 15 years

32:13

Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and that enables you to do one thing

32:18

Focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time

32:26

You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

32:35

Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

32:40

Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a

32:53

Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the

33:01

Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

33:11

You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone.

33:17

This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

33:23

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

33:31

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

33:41

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

33:50

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

34:01

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

34:07

Thank you Still gotta get some new some new bumper music.

34:26

I mean how long has it been? I mean, that's good stuff, but that's always the Thursday one and then the other ones the

34:31

Tuesday one That's just like it's so predictable You Know one of these days,

34:42

I'm just gonna finish the last spot and then just stop it and open your mic, okay That's right.

34:49

That's that's you've done that before actually That's just it yeah

34:56

Anyway, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number.

35:01

Let's go up to The city right next to where I was born

35:06

Eric up in Minnesota. Hi, Eric Doing pretty good

35:14

But I had to leave and I'm just now getting ready to walk across the Wabasha Bridge in st. Paul on this cool day

35:20

So it's always cool in in st. Paul, Minneapolis It's It's it's it's pretty nice here.

35:30

I won't tell you how warm it is Well, actually somebody called

35:36

From from the Minnesota area just today. I got a voice message. They want me to come up and do a

35:43

I Think you just fell in the water folks Are you still there?

35:50

Yeah, but we can hear whatever it is that's around you pretty well too I thought we'd you were following Yeah, that's better that's better Yes, the great the great wind of of the north but anyways

36:06

I got a call from someone asking if I would come up sometime this year to the Minneapolis area

36:12

So I haven't gotten back with him yet, but who knows maybe I'd be great. I Wisconsin but I have a wedding

36:19

I have to go to on that same weekend. So and she wasn't willing to move her wedding date Well, she could get married at the mosque.

36:26

I suppose that would be a real twist Yeah, probably not no no like my question doctor white was besides I don't know if Dan Barker would actually he called

36:38

I'm gonna look all the time, but I go to a fundamental school I don't think they'd have accepted him back then in the in the circles, but that's another another thing.

36:47

That's true Well, he does he does make some differentiation there But he views himself as having been a fundamentalist even though he was a very clearly charismatic fundamentalist

36:59

My question today though was regarding the rock in Matthew 68 and not from necessarily a specific

37:05

Roman Catholic Perspective as far as apologetics from Catholicism But I just like if you have some good resources you can recommend or because you know various commentaries say, you know

37:18

I think it's Calvin or Gil or I forget who they don't say Well, obviously it's it's the rock of Peter and if it wasn't for the

37:24

Romish stuff but we wouldn't be so hesitant and others like MacArthur say that obviously it's

37:30

Christ because of the you know, he's the cornerstone of the foundation and things like that and if you had some good Lexical or you know grammatical stuff that would a

37:39

Good book or a couple of resources that you could point me to that I could really you know study up on that too because I mean if it's my my thought is if the rock is

37:46

Peter I mean that doesn't you know, isn't one way the other necessarily for Rome, but I want to understand it So I can better talk to you know, whoever whoever yeah

37:55

Well, interestingly enough the the Mormons think the rock is Revelation So there's always a new a new spin to be looking at and it's that's why it's always good to Interpret a text in its context and and to deal with multiple groups because if you only know what one group is saying

38:11

Then another group comes along and and if you're imbalanced on your exegesis and on one text

38:16

Then you can be susceptible to the other text. So it's always good back in 1993 and I think

38:24

I think riches goes or pot you down just a little bit there because we're getting a lot of background noise That's alright

38:30

Back in 1993 I debated Jerry Matta ticks at Denver Seminary on the subject of the papacy

38:37

Actually, we did two nights The first night was on the biblical evidence and the second night was on the early church evidence if you listen to that presentation or the one a few years later with Father Mitchell Pacwa on this particular subject, especially the one with Pacwa from Long Island You'll get a pretty lengthy

38:57

Discussion of Matthew 1618 both contextually as well as in its church history setting that is what early church writers and People like that understood it to mean and so those would be helpful.

39:11

If you also look at the website in the articles section vintage a omen org

39:17

If you look under Roman Catholicism, you will see an article

39:23

It's down toward the very bottom of the list called upon this rock The subtitle is

39:28

Jesus speaking to Peter about the rock and if you'll take a look at that that will go into a discussion of the

39:36

Greek text and one of the arguments that needs to be Addressed and that is the fact that when

39:42

Jesus refers to this rock epitout a Upon this rock,

39:49

I will build my church. He's using a form of address that is is not in the second person

39:55

He's it's not saying You are Peter and upon you I will build my church. There is a differentiation in the language itself between that which

40:06

Jesus indicates in in talking to Peter and then this rock That is the foundation of the church now

40:13

I realize there are folks who have taken the view that look, you know, if we weren't arguing with Roman Catholics We'd all interpret this way.

40:20

I don't think that that's necessarily the case at all. I think that given what's going to happen with Peter and given

40:29

Everything else that kind of interpretation of Matthew 16 18 just really doesn't fly I believe that the rock that is

40:38

Been referred to there is the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ that is the

40:43

This that comes in the preceding context That becomes the foundation of the church in every generation and in every land and in every language and every culture

40:53

What unites all the people of the church across the history of the church is the confession that Jesus is the

41:00

Christ? He is the the foundation itself and our recognition of who he is is is key and central so I know you're not your computer right now, but When you when you get back to it

41:12

If you look at a omen org look at the article section go there on the Catholic section scroll down to the bottom and you'll find

41:18

Upon this rock and then the specific title is Robertson genus and epitaute is the the

41:24

Greek the Greek phrase But Anything other than the words that Christ uses there that would cause the second used to be feminine as opposed to Maybe referring to you know, the rock bed as opposed to the small rock if they're like, uh,

41:47

I think that the Petras is feminine So if there's something that's causing it would cause dramatically, you know

41:53

Matthew to have written the second in feminine to make that different actually actually Actually the second the second use

41:58

Petra is the feminine the first Petras is just simply Peter's name and Peter's not gonna have a

42:04

Peter's not gonna have a Feminine name I don't I know it's again very common for people to say well

42:12

Petras is is a small rock and Petras a big rock and Jesus was it at the big rock in Caesarea Philippi, etc

42:19

Etc, etc. I don't think that's the issue and and normally in Roman Catholic apologetics that doesn't really become the issue because They're trying to argue what the presumed

42:29

Aramaic would have been and they say both would have been Kefa Which again, they don't know that that's the case

42:34

There is no Aramaic to look at and a lot of people have made arguments Otherwise for other other terms like Limna and others would have would have fit in there.

42:43

So but as far as as the form itself the the most logical reason for the

42:48

Differentiation is ones being used as a male name and Petra is the more common use of something that would function as a

42:56

Foundation stone or something upon which something would be built. So that would be the differentiation I I don't think that the the the differentiation in the in the language itself is any argument against the

43:09

Roman Catholic abuse of the text Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Dr. White. Okay. Thanks a lot drive a walk carefully out there

43:17

All right. Thanks a lot It is amazing the background noise that a cell phone will pick up it

43:26

I'm not sure how they're designed that way but they really can cause a problem there but I could hear him fine whenever he was talking, but then when he wasn't talking it was like wow, there goes a

43:38

Volkswagen bus and there goes a Volvo. Oh And they're listening to that particular radio program.

43:43

I mean, it's just it's really that that loud It's seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three four one.

43:51

I had noticed just over the past couple weeks that I had seen Patrick Madrid repost a a

43:58

Apologetics article that he had written years and years and years ago and posted in and had print published non -boy magazine going after that Petras Petra issue, but of course

44:09

And again, it just is a frustration that I think a lot of Roman Catholics actually themselves share

44:17

They're not dealing with the best argumentation that the other side offers. They just keep repeating the same

44:23

Worn -out arguments over and over again rather than going. Okay, and while you know, some people do use that but then there are others

44:30

You know, for example in this debate This was said let's deal with that. Yeah, you would think that's what they would do

44:36

But no, that's that's generally not what Roman Catholic apologists do and I know some sometimes because it's still in the old format

44:44

Sometimes people don't look at the article section, but there is a goldmine of information, especially in the

44:49

Roman Catholic section Before blogging what we would do is

44:56

I would write a front page article and That front page article could sometimes be there for a long long time

45:03

And in fact, even when we started quote -unquote blogging we weren't using blogging software I was just writing shorter articles and and replacing them or adding to them.

45:13

I forget how we did it There was about well, it was about five six months somewhere along there before we actually started using

45:19

Real blogging software with RSS feeding and all the rest that kind of stuff but This was one of those front page articles and I would finally find the time to write something fairly lengthy and we put on the front page of the of the web and and that's that's how we would how we would do it and this particular article

45:40

Robertson Jenison epitaute was a response to a discussion of The the grammar of Matthew 16 18 and it responds to that but like I said if you really want to I don't think

45:56

I've ever really posted it. It's most this stuff is available in The old books on Roman Catholicism that are generally not available anymore, unfortunately

46:07

But the older books on Catholicism, which were much more in depth, which is why they don't sell and no one buys them anymore

46:15

But they would go into these issues and deal with these issues in a much greater depth and you could find

46:20

I'll never forget riding along back in. Oh, I don't know 19 Wow would have been 95 or early 96 because my first debate with Tim Staples was in 96 listening to Tim Staples on radio program

46:36

Talking about how every single early church father every Every single early church father every one of them without exception had interpreted

46:47

Matthew 16 18 the way modern Let's just I'm sorry, that's not the case but he his confidence was very very high that that that that was the case and Unfortunately when we did debate we debated the

47:08

Infallibility of the Pope and he debated just the papacy and Caused some some problems for him.

47:13

He was having to do some catch -up later on but Bit as it made is fascinating. Yeah, I kind of thing. Well, it looks like this is the topic of the day

47:22

Peter and the rock because our next call is on the exact same subject. Let's talk with Arlen.

47:28

Hello Arlen Hello, dr. White. Thank you for For just the ministry,

47:34

I like I really appreciate it over the last year so I've been listening spite of my rambling and channel

47:43

What about my question is Not necessarily just the rock but primarily that concept

47:51

How did this doctrine of the Catholic Church develop? what what do you do know the time frame of when this started becoming a

48:00

Strong piece of the Catholic Groundwork as it were. Well, you see the text being used by Bishop Stephen of Rome in promoting his prerogatives in debate with the

48:16

North Africans in the middle of the third century and There's a little trick to remember about church history and about reading especially

48:26

Roman Catholic writings about church history is They will point to Cyprian the martyr bishop of North Africa Who I believe is

48:37

I recall off the top of my head was was martyred in 254 so right in the middle of the third century and they will quote some of his statements about the

48:47

Cathedra Petri the seat of Peter and the assumption on the part of the

48:53

Roman Catholic and Roman Catholics are very good at engaging in anachronism they Read meanings back into early the early church period that the other church would not itself have even been able to understand and Whenever they hear something about the chair of Peter since that is so commonly used for the papacy in Rome They just assume that its meaning today was the same as its meaning was in the past And so they read those texts in that fashion.

49:20

I can understand how a convinced lifelong Roman Catholic could read The early church writing says

49:27

I can anyone question this because they're reading it through the lens and Redefining those historical documents on the basis of modern

49:35

Roman Catholic belief. The reality is that When you look at what Cyprian did and what he wrote

49:42

Especially after he started having problems with Stephen himself He may have even put out two different versions of his book on the unity of the church where he sort of drew some things back

49:54

And it's it's important to recognize that Cyprian was called Pope by people that the term

50:01

Pope was not reserved the Bishop of Rome till much later in church history and He believed that all bishops himself

50:12

Bishop for million is another that comes to mind that was specifically involved in berating

50:18

Pope Stephen and his overstepping of his bounds But here you have in the middle of third century a belief that any bishop is sitting upon the chair of Peter because the bishops themselves are fulfilling this role from Peter not just as it as they are in communion with the

50:35

Bishop of Rome and Especially if you read for millions response to Stephen At this period of time in the middle of the third century

50:45

He mentions Stephen's use of Matthew 16 18 and just in a mocking tone

50:51

Just berates him for coming up with some new idea. This somehow reserves this privilege to the

50:57

Bishop of Rome himself and That was that was the voice of of the third century church this idea that there was one bishop

51:07

Now the reason that Rome of course over time develops is not because of biblical theology or teaching in any way

51:14

It is very clearly Due to geography and politics in other words if you take the the the

51:22

Bible that you have and you look at the map in the back and Draw a line down through Oh Just just draw it just a little bit to the east of Greece or so Just just draw a line right down there and bisect the map

51:40

And then ask yourself. All right, how many quote -unquote? Apostolic C's were there on each side of this line an

51:49

Apostolic C would be a bishopric that was that claimed to have been founded by one of the

51:54

Apostles themselves and You'll discover why you have Roman Catholicism in Eastern Orthodoxy And why they differ from one another one of the main

52:03

Reasons if you just look at a map in that way because on the left hand side of that line

52:08

There's going to be one C and that's Rome on the right hand side. There's gonna be at least five You're gonna have

52:15

Alexandria and you're gonna have Jerusalem and you're gonna have eventually Constantinople You're gonna have all these places

52:23

Antioch that claimed to have been founded by an Apostle and that's why even to this day in Eastern Orthodox polity you have all these patriarchs

52:35

Vying for for supremacy over one another but it's still this Collegiality they were forced to by the situation they were in but in the

52:43

West you had one Apostolic C and that was Rome then you combine that with what takes place in church history

52:51

When the Roman Empire falls and it did not happen overnight It wasn't just in 410 when the

52:57

Lark the Visigoths sacked Rome, but that was an important part of it When the

53:03

Roman Empire falls it falls in portions and in pieces The western portion falls long before the eastern portion does in fact you could make the argument

53:14

That the eastern portion lasts for almost another 900 years in that Constantinople doesn't fall to the

53:21

Ottoman Turks until the middle of the 15th century, so you have a power vacuum created in the

53:31

West and When the Caesar is gone and the legions are gone and the

53:37

Roman centralized government is gone, which has given Peace and stability for Centuries and it's been so long and no one can even remember what it was like before the

53:52

Roman Colossus strode across the the created world then

53:59

Someone had to take the place of Caesar in the West and It was the bishop that fell to the

54:06

Bishop of Rome and over time that bishop Becomes more and more connected to the political power that is his until you see this this rise in papal authority after after the period of the ninth and tenth centuries where there's a real drop because of what's called the pornocracy where the

54:24

The the Bishop of Rome was was that that position was bought and sold the the

54:31

Environs around Rome were were a place where of nothing of debauchery Reed shafts history of the church and the pornocracy is a pretty rough period of time to read through But finally in in the 12 13 14 centuries you reach the reach the height of papal power

54:48

Where one of the things for example that that causes Luther at the beginning of the 16th century to be so scandalized about the condition of Rome is

54:56

When the Bishop of Rome goes riding through the city streets of Rome in full armor he views himself much more as a king and head of an army than he does a

55:07

Shepherd of souls or anything along those lines at all and so that is a a a long process but it has roots in history and that process was sped along and necessarily sped along By the use of fraudulent documents the donation of Constantine the

55:29

Pseudo Isidore and decretals were vital in the intellectual defense of the development of the papacy and especially the claims of Rome in regards to temporal power ownership of lands armies

55:44

All the other things that Rome got very much involved in during that period of time. So it took a long long time

55:51

I'm sorry You're saying that during the Crusades a lot of this got established as well.

55:56

Well Certainly development is taking place at that time and with especially with innocent the rise of innocent the third there there again

56:04

You have one of the highest pinnacles in in papal power, but from the time of Let's say

56:12

Pope Gregory the Great onward you have a gradual development. Yes, it hits some roadblocks with the pornography

56:19

But there is a gradual development and it comes from many different directions it's political it's geographical it's theological in the sense of the creation of Almost all the doctrines that Rome teaches today that we would we would take issue with did not just pop into existence one day

56:39

Transubstantiation required the influx of Aristotelian philosophy purgatory Developed from all sorts of different disparate streams coming together

56:49

Forming the Treasury of Merits and and all the rest of these things when you see a list that gives dates

56:55

For a particular teaching that's normally not a good thing In other words, that's normally not how it happened purgatory didn't just pop into existence one day

57:05

It slowly developed in a denigration of biblical teaching over time

57:11

And then this thread comes together with that thread now You've got two threads and a third thread comes in a fourth thread comes in That's how these these doctrines and dogmas develop over time

57:20

It's much more complex than just simply a list of dates or anything like that. But when you do look at history

57:27

You really do find out very quickly That the Roman Catholic system as it exists today

57:34

Is a it's sort of like a city in the clouds I don't know if you've ever seen the original Star Trek but one of the Star Trek episodes was about a city in the clouds and it's just sort of hanging up there and The reason it's hanging up there is that history the study of history has revealed that the foundations

57:49

It was it was built upon have been washed away And yet it's still there.

57:55

It is an odd odd situation to To see so anyways

58:01

Arlen. Thank you for your call. We're out of time. The music should be coming up Your call there sir, and we thank you for listening to the dividing line today next week

58:09

I must not have adjusted my clock or something or maybe we didn't adjust that clock.

58:15

I don't know But I was that that clocks on huh? So when I hit when I hit adjust time here, it's gonna it's gonna

58:23

Change it by eight seconds. Is that we're fine out here plus one plus 184 microseconds

58:33

It's 39 40 41 42 I'm off.

58:39

The atomic clocks are off and riches computer. It's Oh We love doing doing the dividing line with such professional acumen at all times

58:50

You never know what's going on because we're just so good at this. Anyways, we'll take a shot at it again next next

58:57

Tuesday See you then The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:43

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at P o box 3 7 1 0 6

59:50

Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:56

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks