Responding To Our Friend, Douglas Wilson, On Abolition

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

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Are you going to bark all day, little doggie? Or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me!

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Yes! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make corrosives.

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Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

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That's a joke, pasta. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord and false scales are not good.

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Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord and false scales are not good. Proverbs 20, verse 23.

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One, actually, of many verses in the Word of God on that specific subject.

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There's actually quite a lot about it. But the Proverbs puts it together in a nice, single, solid verse there for you guys.

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I encourage everybody to head over to ApologiaStudios .com. Pick up more content there at ApologiaStudios .com.

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A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A -Studios .com. This is the Gospel Heard Around the

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World, Apologia Radio. We're glad you guys have joined us for a very important show we're having today. I am

02:14

Jeff. They call me the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear. What up? And that is Mr. Zachary Conover right there.

02:19

Hey, hey. The Director of Communications for End Abortion Now. So glad you joined us today for this important show.

02:27

We're grateful to be here. It's an important subject. So for all you guys that are live with us right now, welcome to the show.

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You'll note at the beginning of this that it says, Responding to our friend Douglas Wilson on abolition.

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Now I want everyone to know it's very important as we start a discussion like this that everyone understands sort of where we're at and where we're coming from and how we're engaging this subject.

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You should know that Douglas Wilson is a good friend. Douglas Wilson is a brother in the

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Lord. We love Doug very, very much. We've spent time in Doug's home. We've eaten with Doug.

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I don't even actually remember how many times. Doug actually just recently did something for us for a big project we're doing.

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So we love the man, we're grateful for him, and he is an asset to the work of the gospel of the kingdom.

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And he's had a tremendous impact on our lives. And I'll just say for me personally, as a pastor,

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Doug has been an amazing brother, an amazing brother and friend. I don't really actually remember how many times just as a pastor.

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You're facing something down, trying to make sure you don't have any blind spots. You're looking to the word of God.

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You're trying to apply biblical principles and use wisdom. I can't say how many times I've actually contacted

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Doug. I think it's usually real late at night, and Doug has always been available for me to talk to me, late at night even, to give me counsel and encouragement to check to see if I do have any blind spots.

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There are a number of men in my life that are like that for me, and Doug is among them.

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He has always been so incredibly gracious to us, and he is a gift to the church.

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He truly, truly is. So I want to start this conversation with putting Doug's name in a title, say, responding to him.

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And I message him ahead of time, make sure he understood we were doing this. I want him and everyone to understand this conversation is for the sake of unity, to check for blind spots in any of us, because the key issue here, what we're discussing, and the issue of abolition, incrementalism versus immediatism, all that stuff in terms of, we would say, unequal weights and measures, accepting those, partiality, accepting those, is that acceptable as we all work towards the end of the big

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A word? I want to just say this at the outset. Doug Wilson, I mean, we're on the same page with Doug with virtually every area of our theology.

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I mean, we're right on baptism, and he's wrong, and so there's that element there.

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Doug would love that. He would love that jab. But we're Reformed.

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We hold to the doctrines of grace. We all affirm Sola Scriptura, those essential elements of the core stuff that everything comes from in terms of your view of Scripture, soteriology, all that stuff.

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We would have some differences in ecclesiology, in terms of leadership in the church and those sorts of things, but those are things that Christians have disagreed on throughout church history, and they shouldn't divide us as brothers and sisters in Christ.

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We would disagree on baptismal mode and those sorts of things. Okay. And we're even on the same page in terms of eschatology and a view of the future.

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So we're very, very, very aligned, and in particular on this subject, I want everyone to hear, at the outset, so there's no confusion whatever on this subject,

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Doug believes that the big A word is murder. He believes it's murder. Doug is, at his core, a person who has a full commitment to the law word of God, that God's word is the ultimate standard, and not just like in a nebulous sort of way, like God's word, you know,

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Sola Scriptura, that's the standard, but actually even at a deeper level to say, like, if you want to know what justice truly is, you have to go to God's definition for certainty.

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If you want to know, like, what is right, what is wrong, what is true, what is beautiful, lovely, all that stuff, you got to go to God's word.

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And in particular, Doug has a full -on, strong, intense, consistent commitment to the law word of God as the ultimate standard for justice in society.

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And that is something that is actually unusual in our day in modern evangelism. It's unusual because, you know,

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Doug's in line with the Puritans. We're in line with the Puritans in terms of how we see society and the law word of God operating in society, even in the civil realm.

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So we're on the same page with Doug on that, and today we do plan, Doug, to grab you by your theonomy.

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And famous, this is an inside nerd, theological nerd joke where Doug said once to James, I would grab them by their baptism.

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Well, today we hope to grab you by your theonomy, Doug. And so at the outset, this is a loving, respectful conversation where we hope to honor our brother, but also we hope to say there's some blind spots here and some inconsistencies and maybe even some things that Doug misunderstands.

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Yeah, just informing. Yeah, just at the start. So that's my lead -off. You guys go ahead and fill in here. I would just second everything you said about him.

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We have tremendous respect and love for him and the guys in Moscow and everybody there.

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So much of what they do has blessed us and had a tremendous impact on us and on our lives personally.

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So exactly, all I can say is echo what you said. Yeah, and we work together a lot.

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I was just going to say that when I listened to this the other day, a lot of what we're going to play here in a second we're in complete agreement with, and I was actually very encouraged by it because I think it's been a bit of a shift maybe from some of the stuff

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Doug said in the past. So I was very encouraged by that, and there was just one part we're going to get to at the end where I was like, eh, we should talk about that.

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Yeah, and so as we get into this conversation, again, welcome everyone to everyone who's in the comments. This is a very, very,

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I think, important subject, but also hopefully very informative for you today. So hopefully this will actually cast the possibility of actually growing together and understanding together and making sure we understand what are the most important parts and pieces here that we need to be focusing in upon.

08:42

But before we get into it, I want to make sure I announce to everybody, sign up for Bonson U. It's free, apologiastudios .com.

08:48

Bonson U, you're going to get all of Dr. Greg Bonson's lectures, all that stuff, all there at apologiastudios .com,

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Somebody sign up for all access and they're making this whole thing a reality.

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So again, thank you to all of our all access partners. When you're all access, you get additional content, TV shows, after shows, you get

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Apology Academy, which is actually going to be improving soon and a lot more added to that. You also get the Ask Me Anything.

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I said, ask me anything. The Ask Me Anything, once a month where you actually log into a private feed where you get to interact and we get to talk to each other and ask questions, that sort of a thing.

09:39

That's just for all access partners. We want to bless you guys with that. And I want to announce to everybody the most important thing you can hear right now, today, in terms of like, where can

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I take action? It is March the 5th, South Carolina's capital, state capital, and that is taking place

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March 5th, state capital, we're doing a rally for the bill that's in South Carolina right now for equal protection.

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So the rally for the bill that's in that would end it, abolish it, criminalize it, it's over in the state of South Carolina.

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We also have, I heard the proper way to say it, Louisiana. Louisiana. Louisiana coming up on March 19th, possibly

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Colorado shortly following that. Looking very promising. Yeah, and we got more and more coming this year for bills of equal protection that I know that Doug, our brother

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Doug, would actually affirm equal protection. He would actually say, yes, do that, that's good. So that's all happening.

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March 5th is the first. Come and meet me at the capital in South Carolina, please, on March the 5th.

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We need a ton of people to show up for this thing. The bill is in.

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That is, again, an amazing moment we're in as a church where 50 some odd years of Roe versus Wade, here we are, where now we have all these states with bills of equal protection.

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This is equal justice for all humans from conception. It's happening this year in so many states.

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And so we need you to come join us. So if you're in and around South Carolina, be there, March the 5th.

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We need your feet on the grounds. Yes, we need you to pray, but we need you there. We need you at this rally.

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Let's get 15, 25 ,000 people there. Let's get as many people there as possible. And we're going to lead off, too, with an important discussion.

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Yeah. I was just going to mention Action for Life. I didn't know where you were. Go ahead and do that now.

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OK. I just wanted to, we haven't talked a lot about Action for Life.

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We should probably talk more about Action for Life. But Action for Life is the legislative arm that we established completely separate from an abortion.

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Now they're completely different organizations. But one thing that's been really helpful with all these bills is it's an abortion now working side -by -side, hand -in -hand with Action for Life.

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Dennis Sarfate is the president. We need to get him on to talk some more about that. I actually sit as chairman of the board, which sounds like a

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WWF wrestler's name. Chairman of the board. Chairman of the board. So I just think it's funny.

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Anyways, I just wanted to throw that out there because I think we've had some questions from people that were asking what that was about.

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So we wanted to make sure we clarified some of those. Yeah, End Abortion Now is a ministry of apology, a church. It's the prophetic witness and work at every level for the cause of justice for the pre -born.

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Action for Life president Dennis Sarfate, he is from Japan.

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I got to say it like them. He is heading that up. And if a bill is getting written in a state, if a bill is getting written in a state, that is really taking place because of what

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Action for Life is doing in terms of the language, writing it up, getting it written up, and then getting it to the state, paying for it.

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So you need to get to know Action for Life and to make sure you're praying for Dennis and all the guys who are involved with Action for Life.

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But there's some stuff, some action right now taking place in the state of Texas. That's right. That state with that heartbeat bill, that state where we had a bill in of equal protection and it was killed.

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So what they opted for was heartbeat bill. What they had was equal protection bill, criminalization and abolition bill.

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They killed ours. Who killed ours? Who killed it? In our state? No, no. In Texas. Well, both our states.

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And I know the answer. Two different politicians really. But in Texas, there was a bill that would have abolished it and criminalized it and given equal protection to all humans.

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Right. But it was killed. Right. So most recently, Stephanie Click is a representative there and then even before that, if you saw

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Babies Are Still Murdered Here, which is the sequel follow up to Babies Are Murdered Here, the documentary, there was a lot of time spent in Babies Are Still Murdered Here going over the inconsistency and failures of the pro -life industry, in particular opposing the work of people that are putting in this type of legislative works and really standing in as an adversary against the cause of equal protection.

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And Jeff Leach was one of the primary figures of that. So in 2019, he actually saw to it that HB 896 was put to bed.

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It was killed under his watch. And then his partner in crime, so to speak,

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Stephanie Click is in office right now. She killed in 2021 HB 3326, which was the follow up to the previous bill.

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And so currently with our like minded brethren there in Texas that are doing the hard work of going door to door, they're spreading the cause of the gospel in this area.

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They're in a dogfight right now because they have a candidate that's running against her. David Lowe is his name.

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And so he's running against her right now to replace her in office as a courageous man that will put forward the cause of justice in this area and will see to it that the bill goes forward to protect children in the state of Texas.

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And so number one, pray for the situation right now, but how it's polling currently, there's gonna be a primary vote coming up in March at the beginning of March.

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But as it stands right now, he's actually performing very, very well in the polls and even pulling ahead of her.

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And so the opposition, the other side, Leach and company are coming back and launching from what we've been told, smear campaigns against the bill, lying about the bill, what it does do and what it doesn't do.

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And so they're doing everything that they can to prevent click from being unseated in that. And so if you wanna help out with the cause right now, pray of course for that.

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But then John Speed, who of course we know, the kindred spirit, a brother that appeared in Babies Are Murdered Here, Babies Are Still Murdered Here.

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He's boots on the ground right now trying to make sure that David gets elected and that they don't succeed on the other side.

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And so reach out to him. You can contact him. You can private message him and see what else you can do to help out there in the cause.

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He left his email, jspeed1971 at gmail .com, jspeed1971 at gmail .com.

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You can send some correspondence there and he'll tell you what to do, what next steps to take. Yeah. Good, okay.

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Ready to leap into this guys? Do it. Let's do it. So this conversation is important because you have, and I think we should put people in proper categories here, and that would be when you talk about the cause of justice for the pre -born and actually protecting all humans from conception, you have to ask the question, okay, what are the different perspectives?

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And you'll oftentimes hear us talking here at church. You'll see me speaking across the country on this issue.

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I'm very specific when I refer to the problem. You hear me saying often the pro -life industry.

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You hear me saying that a lot, right? When I'm not speaking about pro -life Christians, right? Believers who are pro -life, that's a biblical term, for life.

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That's not unbiblical, right? It's not wrong to say I am for life. This is for death, that's for life. That's not a bad thing.

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So I'm very careful to distinguish between the typical Christian in the pew who believes that the big

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A word is murder, who believes that it needs to end immediately and wants to see it ended immediately.

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Typically, the average pro -life Christian just has the operating assumption that big industry over there holds to my perspective.

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Therefore, life, I mean, they're over there saying that life begins at conception. So all human life begins at conception.

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And I guess they're trying to end it, right? So they're sending money to these organizations, everything else. So I'm making a distinction between the pro -life industry, this machine, and the average pro -life person in the pew, okay?

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So what we try to go after in terms of critique, prophetically speak against, be a witness against, is the pro -life industry.

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And somebody might say, why? Why would you speak against the industry that is taking money and trying to fight these battles?

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And the answer is because worldview. Because there's no neutrality. Because the approach of the pro -life industry, and we have -

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Documentable, yeah. Documentable with their own mouths, the leadership of National Right to Life and these other organizations specifically saying that they are not

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Christian organizations. They're proud of that. Believe it or not, they're proud of that. That they're not explicitly

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Christian organizations. That they're not fighting this battle from the perspective of the word of God at their feet as the ultimate reference point for this fight.

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They try to say that they're fighting this from a biological perspective, first and foremost. And even then they're being inconsistent because if biologically it's human from conception, then why aren't you acting like it?

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Why aren't you fighting like that? That's true. But we've also tried to call down the inconsistency in the pro -life industry.

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And this is across the board. You'll see it everywhere. Are there stragglers here or there? Yes. But this is the consistent theme from the national organizations even down to the subsidiaries, the state -level ones, right?

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And that is this. That anybody who engages in this practice of abortion, I want you guys to remember this.

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This is very important. Very important. I already said the word. I'm trying not to say the word so we don't get censored and suppressed. But this is really important.

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The abortionists aren't the ones running around the street, standing on street corners, looking for babies to kill.

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Yeah, they have a clientele. Remember that. The abortionists are not driving around in neighborhoods looking around for children to kill.

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People, being mothers and fathers, are bringing their children to the abortionist as sacrifices.

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So keep that in mind. The abortionist is not going around neighborhoods going to find children to kill.

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It is mothers and fathers who are bringing them to the abortionist. The pro -life industry has had the mindset, the worldview, the perspective that the mother and the father, and they'll emphasize the mother, who actually engage in this issue of abortion, bring their own child, their own offspring, to the abortionist to be slaughtered.

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They themselves are victims. Now if I had one thing to say to my brother,

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Doug, and he would be fully on board with us here, so don't hear me wrong on this, he would be fully on board on the law of God that says that he who acquits the guilty and condemns the righteous is the innocent, that both are like an abomination to the

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Lord. So Doug would be fully in agreement here. So this is what I mean in terms of a blind spot. This is really, really important.

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The pro -life industry, the fatal flaw is they say that the mother is herself a victim like the baby, which means when you see the pro -life industry fighting nationally or at the state level or at a city level against the issue of abortion, we say they're never going to end abortion.

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They won't. They won't. Why? Because they say the woman herself is a victim, which means there will never be criminalization that actually is honoring to God, glorifying to God, consistent and not partial with their perspective.

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In other words, they are failed from the start. They will always fail until they have repentance and a change of worldview, a different perspective on the law of God.

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Key issue, don't miss me here on this, very important. The fatal flaw of the pro -life industry is that they acquit the guilty.

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They say that the mother is herself a victim, which means with their perspective, no matter how much money you throw at them, they're never going to criminalize abortion in a way that's honoring, glorifying to God.

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Why? Because the perpetrators of the crime, some will be seen as victims themselves.

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Now, of course, the average pro -life industry leader will say, well, we definitely want the abortionist punished.

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If he continues to do abortions, we want him, he's guilty of some crime. Some of them won't even say murder.

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Tony Lounger was fearful of even saying that the abortionist is guilty of murder himself, and he's the vice president of National Right to Life for some time, and president of Oklahomans for Life, I believe was his position.

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Same with Carol Tobias, who was the president. So get this, the fatal flaw, when we put people into categories here before we listen to Doug, fatal flaw.

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The pro -life industry says that the mother is herself a victim. And so what we would try to impress upon our brother

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Doug as he's in this discussion so faithfully in so many ways, but I think inconsistently here, is when we talk about the pro -life industry, we have to address the main thing, the fatal flaw.

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And that is that they actually acquit the guilty. They say the mother's not guilty, she's herself a victim.

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If that's the case, they will never end abortion. They won't do it. It won't happen. You'll never have it criminalized.

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Why? Because they're saying that the perpetrator is not guilty. They acquit the guilty. And so that's a fatal flaw.

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Can we make two quick points on that? You've said it, pointed it out many times, and if the mother is innocent in this area and not guilty, then

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Christ is of no effect to her. The gospel is not good news because it's only good news for the guilty.

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And so there's no healing or forgiveness that can result of this. But even more importantly for the purpose of this discussion is that premise, the fundamental premise that she's a victim makes its way into the legislation itself.

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It's written in there as that. Coming after this party, but not this party, not the woman.

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No sanctions, no penalizing the woman. That was the Texas heartbeat bill. It's in there.

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It's not just theoretical. That is a worldview presupposition that is actually written into the laws.

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If you look at virtually any pro -life law at any state, it's actually in the legislation itself.

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Our most recent one that we were just looking at a couple days ago, the newest one put out by our, you know, who are supposed to be the guardians of life here in Arizona, I highlighted it.

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It's right in there. My point is it's not an uncommon thing for this to happen.

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It's not just an isolated incident. Can we buttress that point with what happened in Arizona? Same people.

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Our bill was fought against. And Doug, this is what we want you to hear. And I'm sure Doug will listen to this. Brother, our bill was fought against by the pro -life establishment here in Arizona.

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The bill should have been approved by all of them because it was simply an equal protection bill. Human from conception, equal protection for all humans.

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The pro -life industry says they believe that. However, the problem is that that means that there would be actual criminal punishments, penalties, for the issue of abortion in the state of Arizona.

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So what did they do? They killed ours, they fought against it, and they established their own, and guess what they did?

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Guess what they did? Kathy Herod made sure that there was a line put in their bill that said repeal of 13 -3604.

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It was the state statute in Arizona all the way back to Roe. That was around since the time of Roe. Since the time of Roe that criminalized abortion for the abortionists in 13 -3603, but also for the mother in 04.

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Get this. They put a single line in their bill after they rejected ours that said repeal of 13 -3604.

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That was the bill, standing bill, since Roe v. Wade in Arizona that criminalized abortion for the mother because she was guilty.

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Kathy Herod and the pro -life establishment in this state don't believe that the mother or father are guilty of anything.

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And so they literally decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona. And like Zach said, it's not an anomaly.

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It's in Texas, it's in all the other states. So again, categorizing here, because we can't put Doug in that category.

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He would hate that, refute that, say that goes against God's law. But that's the pro -life establishment, the ones who are fighting all the battles, right?

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Who say we need to overturn Roe. And then that gets to this next point where also they fail and where God hates what they're doing.

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I will say it, he hates it, is they actually put forward bills that show unequal weights and measures.

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They put bills in that are partial. Now this is very, very important. I read at the beginning of the show this key issue and Doug again would agree with this.

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Proverbs 20, 23, unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord. So partiality, those unequal weights are an abomination to God.

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Same thing that we see in scripture regarding certain sexual behaviors. And I don't want this to get shadow banned and I want everyone to hear it.

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So I'll just, you know what I'm talking about. The word is abomination. So we love to pick on certain sexual ethics to say that's an abomination.

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God's very clear about that. But so is this, unequal weights and measures. And we have to ask the question, if the pro -life industry puts forward bills that are actually unequal weights and measures and they show partiality, is that an abomination to God?

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Is it an abomination to God to put a bill in that says treat these humans this way and treat these ones this way in terms of the death penalty?

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Because that's what we're talking about with abortion is the death penalty. Like for an example. An example would be good.

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In our state, when they killed our bill of equal protection, the pro -life establishment put in the bill that decriminalized abortion.

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So they decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona. Congratulations pro -life industry. What'd you do with all that money?

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The next thing they did is they actually said you can kill a child in Arizona but not for the express reason that it has a genetic abnormality.

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Okay, so what's that mean? Is that equal weights and measures? Or is it unequal? Because what you're saying in Arizona is kill the healthy kids.

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You can do that. And this was written by the pro -life industry, by the way. Congratulations. What'd you do with all that money?

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The next thing is they said, well, you can't kill them for the express purpose or reason that they had a genetic abnormality.

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So just ask the question, okay, how do I get around that bill? Easy. Mom and dad comes in, says, doctor, baby has

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Down syndrome. Doctor goes, well, you can't kill it because it has Down syndrome. And they go, nah, we just hate it. That's not why.

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We love Down syndrome. We just hate this kid. Great. And they killed the kid. It didn't matter anyways.

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You get around a piece of cake. It's total waste of money, total waste of funds. And it's unrighteous. It's unjust and evil.

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But it's partial. Same thing with a heartbeat bill. Is a heartbeat bill equal weights and measures for all humans?

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And the answer is no. Because what you're saying is what makes you human is a heartbeat.

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You have to earn that. It's a working heart. You have to earn personhood. Tell that to the people in the cardiovascular center in the hospital, right?

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Working hearts. Well, and just to be clear, that's not the only thing. I don't want people saying, well, see, they support heartbeat bills.

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Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah, we're talking about 15 -week bans, 20 -week bans, pain -capable acts, all of these things.

29:32

I don't want to interrupt you. No, yeah, okay. No, let me know if I'm not clear. Yeah, I just want to make sure that someone's not going to take that and say that.

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Yeah, so what we're saying is that the issue with the pro -life establishment and industry is they put forward bills that God says are an abomination.

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Violate his standards of justice. Exactly. And so we want to grab Doug and his theonomy, and grab him by his theonomy and show it to him.

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This is what the law of the word of God says. This is an abomination to God. How can you as a Christian say,

30:02

I will support something that God calls an abomination, that he calls an abomination for pragmatism?

30:12

Yeah. What we're arguing for is not pragmatism, but prophetic ministry.

30:18

Not pragmatism, but prophetic. Principle. Principle. That's what we're working for. So they acquit the guilty, and they uphold unequivocal measures.

30:28

And then the question is also, is what's written by them a righteous decree, or is it an iniquitous decree?

30:34

Is it sinful at its core? And the answer is, when you look at all these bills, heartbeat bills, pain capable, any of those bills, it's iniquitous.

30:42

Because what does it do? It affirms the right to kill these humans, but only under these conditions.

30:49

It's iniquitous. In Isaiah chapter 10, God says, woe to those who write these iniquitous decrees, who make the fatherless pray.

30:58

These bills literally fall into that category of an iniquitous decree. It's sinful to its core.

31:04

It's unrighteous. It's unequivocal measures. It acquits the guilty. And it makes the fatherless children pray.

31:12

And that's what these children killed in abortion are. Fatherless children. They really are abandoned by their dads. And so that's the industry.

31:18

I'm doing this as fast as I can, but I want to make sure this is a helpful episode for everybody. And Doug even gets a chance to hear from us.

31:24

Like, what are you guys saying? The next category I want to address is someone like our brother

31:32

Doug. And he's not in that category of saying, yeah,

31:39

I want to adopt their principles and their standards, right? Like, Doug would affirm everything I just said in terms of, yeah, that's sinful.

31:45

That's wrong. Can't do that. The problem is, I believe Doug has a blind spot in this area where he would call himself a smash mouth incrementalist.

31:56

Here's the problem. And I would say this, again, with love and respect and honor to my brother.

32:02

Smash mouth incrementalism is not different than regular old run -of -the -mill incrementalism in the pro -life industry.

32:11

It's been said, distinction without a difference. Yeah, it's the same. Yeah. It really is the same.

32:16

It's essentially flood it. Like, let's do everything. Yeah. Doug has said, like, smash mouth incrementalism is like, there's a heartbeat bill that would save some lives.

32:27

So I'll go ahead and affirm the heartbeat bill, but I'm gonna do it with a statement that says, I'm not done.

32:33

I'm gonna keep going just so you know. I don't really accept this, but we're gonna keep going later.

32:39

Well, listen to Clues and Door for anybody else who's an incrementalist with the establishment. And Doug, they say exactly the same thing.

32:47

Like, they don't say heartbeat bill. We're done. Yay, hooray, it's over. They say, we're not finished. We're gonna keep going.

32:52

We're gonna keep speaking and saying, we don't fully accept this. So smash mouth incrementalism, I just, it distincts you without a difference.

33:00

It doesn't, it's not different than what something like, someone like Clues and Door for any others would say and have said for many, many years.

33:07

But watch this. Push, push, push, push, push, push, push, back to the worldview issue. And you can say, I'm not satisfied with the 10 -week ban.

33:14

I'm not satisfied with the heartbeat ban, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. You're gonna finally land on this. Here's where you're gonna land.

33:20

The pro -life industry says, we're not explicitly Christian. We're not using the Bible as our guide.

33:27

We're not using that law, word of God. And we believe that mothers are victims themselves.

33:33

So watch, push and push and push and push and push, 10 -week, nine -week, eight -week, heartbeat, guess where you're gonna get?

33:38

You're gonna finally in here and you're gonna go, oh, lo and behold, they never wanted it to be criminal anyways.

33:45

Not for the mom, not for the dad. And by the way, can I just say something real fast? We don't talk about this enough. It hit me this morning.

33:51

I was rolling the trash out to the street and it just, light bulb came on and I went, oh my goodness, we need to talk about this more to make sure people hear us.

34:00

When we say, don't acquit the guilty and the mom is also guilty of murder, right? Because that's what

34:05

God's law would say. I hope that everyone understands from our perspective as a church, when you hear us saying it has to be equal justice, there has to be penalties, that's the only way

34:15

God is glorified and honored, that's the only way there's real justice. I hope everyone understands that actually we think the first and foremost culprit in most cases, because some dads don't even know what's happening, the first and foremost culprit and guilty party in this issue at the start is the dad.

34:34

Is the dad. It's a fatherless child. It's a fatherless child. So, you know,

34:40

I know that there are instances where like the mother gets pregnant and she goes and does this off on her own.

34:45

He never knows. Okay, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the ones, most common, where they both know and they make that decision together and we're watching the dad drive the mom up to the door, drive off blasting music and eating tacos and returning in an hour and a half to come pick up his wobbling wife or girlfriend.

35:06

He is the first culprit and he's the one that I think bears the greater responsibility to begin with.

35:12

And they're both guilty. But just understand, this isn't a matter of saying let's go after the women.

35:19

No, the issue is this. Let's establish justice. That's the issue. Establish justice.

35:25

Well, I was going to say, and I know we've talked about this, but we have some new listeners, so I was going to make a couple quick points, but just like any other murder, it needs to go to trial, right?

35:38

Right. So if it was done properly, like you're saying, if it's an instance where the husband took the wife, dropped her off, whatever, yeah, he should also be guilty of murder.

35:48

It's just crazy because the law is usually to only mention the mother. They don't usually mention the father, but that's how any murder case should be handled appropriately is in the court of law with two to three independent lines of witness.

35:58

Now, there may be possibly instances where the mother's not guilty and they can prove that in the court of law because we know that there's times if it's a case of coercion or something.

36:07

It's the exception, not the rule. It's the exception, not the rule. So we can't formulate, put a law into practice based on the exception.

36:16

And with that, because someone asked, would we proactively go back in a time? No. No, that's silly.

36:24

We would not go back and try to prosecute women who've had abortions prior to it being illegal. Yeah, no retroactive anything.

36:30

We want the gospel to connect to every woman who's ever had this in their experience, who's ever guilty of it. We want all that, not retroactive.

36:37

We're talking about establishing justice now and moving forward, right? That's what we're trying to say. Maybe a way to sum it up is just to say if everyone is subject to the justice system for homicide of a born person, but it's not equal, then we aren't really treating preborn children as a person.

36:56

It has to be equal weights and measures. It has to be equal protection under the law.

37:03

Otherwise, our adversaries were smart to this back during the time of Roe, right?

37:08

We've talked about this before, but that was essentially, you know, they gave us the way to beat them in terms of when

37:15

Roe came down the pipe because the law in Texas, Roe versus Wade was a Texas case at that time. And the statutes that were on the books specifically stated the way that, you know, we were arguing for this.

37:27

We were saying, no, the preborn are, they're persons. They're entitled to the protections of the 14th

37:32

Amendment just like everybody else. That was how we were arguing and rightfully so. But the problem was the statutes on the books in Texas said that the penalty for killing a preborn child was less than the homicide of a born person.

37:45

And then secondly, there was the other aspect of, let me read it here because it's really important.

37:56

So there was the issue of the penalty being less severe and then there was the drawn a blank, oh yeah, that's what it was.

38:09

Secondly, depending on whether the crime was homicide of a born person or abortion of a fetus, the available penalties were different.

38:16

The available penalties at the time for voluntarily killing any person or a born person ranged from two years to capital punishment, whereas the available penalties for intentionally destroying a fetus ranged from two to five years.

38:29

So that's the first one, far less than the available range for the murder of a born person. And then the other one was Texas had determined that the statutes against abortion did not apply to conduct committed by the mother.

38:40

So the argument was if you're saying that the baby in the womb is a person, how can the mom not be a principal or an accomplice to the crime?

38:47

In other words, your actions speak louder than words. I don't believe you. Very good. So again, making sure we understand proper categories as we enter into the discussion and sort of engage a bit with some of Doug's comments.

39:01

One, pro -life industry, not Christian, acquit the guilty, unequal weights and measures, accepting of all of that, right?

39:10

That problem there, not standing in the word of God. Doug's not in that category. He's not in that category.

39:16

But he has described his position as smash mouth incrementalism.

39:22

Our challenge to Doug is, Doug, that's what they say all the time. Like six weeks is not enough.

39:28

We're going to accept it for now, but we're going to keep working, keep working, keep working. And so I don't really see where his position is distinct, except that Doug does not accept the neutral, the pretended neutrality of the pro -life industry.

39:43

He wouldn't accept that at all. Doug's a presuppositionalist. He doesn't believe in that in terms of ultimate worldview commitments, that there is such a thing as neutrality.

39:49

It doesn't work. It doesn't work. If you want to see it in action, go watch Collision, film made by our friend

39:54

Darren Doan. It is epic. I actually watched it a couple days ago, just because I love it so much. Just for the heck of it.

40:00

Because it's such a great movie. Yeah, it's a good one. There's another perspective, and that is a perspective

40:05

I think that we're holding to, we want to be committed to, and this is where we're coming from, Doug, so you know.

40:12

Word of God is central. Word of God is the foundation. Law, Word of God is the standard, and we need to be not pragmatic, but prophetic, and we need to be principled.

40:22

We need to be consistent. We need to establish justice. We need to, whenever we're pursuing anything in terms of light and transformation and the culture around us, we have some standards we need to hold to in terms of what would

40:34

God think about this. Is this an iniquitous decree? Is it? Like on the last day, would

40:40

God look at this, would God look at this thing that we try to put forward, would He say from His perspective and His perfect character and His standard of justice, this is unrighteous, this is iniquitous, this is sinful, this is unjust?

40:56

That's the question. Another one to follow up. Is this particular piece of legislation, is it partial?

41:04

Is it unequal weights and measures? Is there a partial aspect to this bill?

41:10

If the answer is yes, this is certainly a partial bill, then God hates it.

41:16

It's an abomination and He doesn't approve of it. And so when we think about fighting prophetically and not pragmatically against the culture, we ask that question.

41:27

Is this particular piece of legislation, does it show partiality? Because God, He calls that an abomination.

41:34

Can I as His child actually work to put something forth that He says is an abomination?

41:42

I just don't think there's a way around that. I just don't. I don't think there's a way around that as Christians. Is it an abomination?

41:48

Yes. When we had this discussion with the guys at Fight Laugh Feast and we had a very loving conversation engaging as brothers in this issue, it was interesting to hear how our brothers, it was

42:02

Toby and Gabe and of course Chuck believes the same thing, but when they were talking about these bills that are not righteous, not just, they were calling them idolatrous.

42:14

Yeah. And these are idolatrous bills and we're going to have it in, then we're going to come and we're going to challenge you afterwards for this idolatrous bill.

42:20

That's the question. Can the people of God support and approve of, sign off on, something that is an idolatrous, sinful, wicked, abominable bill?

42:30

Another question asked, can I ever pursue a course of ending this and establishing justice that acquits the guilty?

42:41

That's our perspective in terms of like, if we're going to be light and salt to the world, let's go all the way. Right? Let's not just be a little salty and a very dim light.

42:49

Let's let it shine before everybody. Let's be prophetic and let's actually do something that's in accordance with the law word of God.

42:55

So what we're saying is that you have to be prophetic and use the word of God as you move forward.

43:01

Now we're not against, this is key, Doug, if you hear this, this is key. We're not against a righteous increment.

43:09

Like everyone puts it, like incrementalism versus immediatism or abolition.

43:15

I think it's different than that actually. The issue is, this is this question. In the category you're working in, is what you're doing just?

43:24

Yeah. Right? In that category, exactly right. Is it just? Yeah. Is it righteous?

43:29

Yes or no? In whatever category you're working in, it's just a question you ask, does it show partiality?

43:36

Does it acquit the guilty? Is it just? So like for example, this is key. Is the increment regulating the who, what, where, when and why?

43:45

Right. How an abortion is done? Right. Or is the increment abolishing abortion completely in a state and then moving on to another state and then until we continue to do it?

43:54

Right, right. Yeah. Key issue, because the argument made, well like you believe in increments too because you're trying to get it done in the state of Arizona.

44:01

It's like, yeah, righteously, justly, right? If we're thinking jurisdictionally, what's my immediate responsibility where I live?

44:08

It's a big world. Yeah. So I can, you know, I can sometimes work town by town. But when you work town by town, city by city, state by state, when you do that, the question is, is as you're doing it, is it pragmatic or prophetic?

44:21

Is it faithful? Is it just? Or is it unjust? I'll give you one example. Very important. Check this out.

44:27

See this? Praise God for this. We're gonna talk in a moment now about Doug and his comments on the

44:35

Supreme Court case that's going on right now. Yeah. From the Mississippi case. So I wanted to just offer this as sort of a, maybe a correction.

44:45

Maybe even like, oh, I didn't know that to others and to our brother Doug on this issue. We would consider ourselves immediatists, abolitionists.

44:55

You know, I don't wanna associate with some of the nutters out there who would also adopt the title of abolitionist in terms of where I'm at and what

45:02

I want to happen, what we want to happen. However, we were a part of filing this in this case that we're discussing.

45:10

So Doug's talking about a case that we actually filed an amicus brief in. So our constitutional attorney,

45:17

Bradley Pierce Esquire, he actually submitted this.

45:22

We were a part of actually funding this and getting this put into the Supreme Court case. So in the case that Doug is talking about right now, we're a part of filing this through Bradley Pierce, our constitutional attorney.

45:34

It has a bunch of state legislators who were signed off on it and a bunch of organizations including Action for Life and Free the

45:41

States, Rescue Those, Operation Save America and Abortion Now, all those. Abolish Abortion Texas.

45:47

Abolish Abortion Texas. Now, I wanna just show you the difference in terms of like a righteous increment, right, right, is when we filed this friend of the court brief in this very case.

46:02

So the judges are supposed to read it. Yeah, that'd be good. That'd be good if they did. I want you to see the difference between how they're working in terms of the pro -life industry and filing against this and how we worked.

46:16

Now, we believe that Roe versus Wade is evil. It is unjust.

46:21

It is fallacious to its core. What's in the womb is potential human life. No, we know as a fact of biology and from the biblical world view, what's in the womb is not potential human life.

46:30

It's human life from conception. That just can't be disputed. But in this case, when we filed this brief, at the very beginning, you'll see the difference here.

46:39

Watch this. Not to mention an egregious violation of their authority that they don't have, right?

46:47

The Supreme Court does not have authority to do what they're doing according to our

46:52

Constitution, which they're supposed to be subject to, not Lord of, right? They can't reinterpret according to the

46:58

Tenth Amendment. They don't have the right to impose infanticide upon the states. That's right.

47:04

Roe versus Wade is a court opinion. It is not law. Joe Biden knows that.

47:10

His press secretary knows that. She's said it multiple times. And it's very, very important to keep that in mind.

47:16

Roe versus Wade, they know, is not a law. He's talking now and has been talking about making

47:21

Roe versus Wade law of the land. In other words, codifying it as the law. Because it's not the law.

47:26

Roe versus Wade is a court opinion. Congress creates law according to our Constitution. So Lex Rex, the law is king.

47:34

Not any other way around. Now, in our Friend of the Court brief that's in this case right now that Doug's discussing, it actually has at the table of authorities, the first authorities.

47:46

Scripture. Do you see it? I'm trying to make sure the light can't get to it. The Holy Bible. The Holy Bible. Exodus 20, one through six,

47:53

Jeremiah 6, and on and on it goes. And then there's some quotations from the constitutional provisions, the cases, all that stuff, the statutes, all of it.

48:01

But do you know what this actually says? Do you know what this says? No compromise.

48:08

It calls Roe versus Wade's decision evil. It calls the court to repent. It calls the court to honor and obey

48:14

Jesus Christ and the law of God. That's what this says. So do we believe that Roe versus Wade should be overturned?

48:21

Yeah. Because in the category of the duty of that court before the king, Jesus, the court needs to reverse that wicked decision.

48:30

So when we talk about incrementalism versus immediatism, no, we agree. In the category of the Supreme Court's responsibility, they must overturn that wicked decree.

48:38

That's their jurisdiction. That's important. And we worked on it. And we're abolitionists. But that's not the same thing as someone saying, well, you believe in increments.

48:48

No, I believe in righteous categories. Right? I believe in a category over here of the responsibility of the Supreme Court and their responsibility before King Jesus.

48:56

And so I'll work in that category and say repent, obey Jesus. But when there is the, this is the key.

49:01

Everyone get me now. This will be the key. When there is the category in terms of legislation to protect life and uphold justice for those babies, in that category, according to God's word,

49:17

I must not have unequal weights and measures, show partiality. I must not acquit the guilty.

49:23

And I must preserve human life, love my neighbor, which means if I have legislation in a state before me that does any of those sinful things, if it's actually an iniquitous decree,

49:35

God hates it. Yeah. On the last day, this is the thing I ask myself. On the last day, will

49:42

God have approved of this bill? Or does he hate it? That's a good question. So when we have anything we're working on in the state, that's kind of like we're like lens, we're going, does

49:52

God hate this bill? Yeah. This is the metric. Does God hate this bill? And if it's a bill that you say biblically,

50:00

God's law word, God's standard, yeah, he hates that bill. Then you can't do it. You can't do it and you can't put a title over it that sort of muddies that issue.

50:13

Like we'll all accept it, but not forever. And a good thing that a friend of mine pointed out is if you really want to see the beginning of this discussion in terms of how do you prophetically work against a government when

50:28

God has given his law word, he's given his word, he's given his decree, he says, do this. He gives you your marching orders, right?

50:36

How do you manage that? And I would say start in Exodus chapter five with Moses versus Pharaoh.

50:44

Pharaoh was told by Moses, God says, let my people go. And what's

50:49

Pharaoh do? Pharaoh's like, what God? I'll bet that's what he said. Like, I think it's specifically, it was like very

50:59

BC era, like. Yeah. So Pharaoh's like, who? Who's your

51:04

God, right? So Pharaoh, watch. But then as God starts to press upon Egypt, his authority and power and glory,

51:12

Pharaoh starts getting freaked out now because he realizes, oh, I'm dealing with Yahweh, the true God. So what does

51:18

Pharaoh try to do? He tries to compromise as the government with Moses and God's word.

51:27

He tries to compromise. He's like, what if I just let you guys go out? Like, you can go out, you can worship in the land.

51:33

Like, you'll still be here in Egypt and you can do whatever you want religiously. Like, you can do your thing, but you have to stay here.

51:40

What's Moses say? Well, at least we get to be religious. At least we get to do our worship. Right.

51:45

Total liberation is what God commands. Right. That's the point. Do you get the point?

51:51

Like, if you want to look at this happening in scripture, start in Exodus.

51:56

And I would say start in Exodus chapter one. Chapter one. With the Hebrew midwives who were ordered to commit infanticide and they said no.

52:05

And so if the federal government is commanding us to kill our children, if the federal government and the court is commanding us to show partiality and to acquit the guilty and to do all these things that God says is an abomination to him, we have a duty not to obey an entity that's being disobedient to God.

52:29

So, good question to ask. Is the conflict between Moses, God's spokesperson, and Pharaoh, the government of the day, that conflict, was

52:42

Moses' position an immediatist position? Was it a full -on prophetic position or was it a compromised position?

52:51

God had a word for Pharaoh. Obey this. Let my people go. Pharaoh tried to compromise and say, well, how about this?

52:58

How about that? How about I give you a little bit of this and that? And Moses ultimately was like, no, it's all or nothing.

53:03

Yeah, it was about obedience. Right. Really. And I want to get you to consider this. And by the way, buy lots of book.

53:12

Books from, buy lots of book. Buy lots of book. Buy a lot of book. Y 'all buy a lot of book now, you hear?

53:19

Buy, everyone buy a lot of book. What I'm saying is, you got good book, buy a lot of it.

53:26

Canon Press puts out a lot of book. Canon Press, book. Yeah. All right, sorry.

53:33

It's been a tough month. That's probably the first time I've laughed a lot. So, this, right here, this is

53:41

A Defense of Liberty Against Tyrants. Canon Press, get it in your library. A Defense of Liberty Against Tyrants.

53:48

This book, Huguenots, this book, quoted by our early founding fathers, referenced this very book.

53:57

Very good. Next book here, very good, Slaying Leviathan, Limited Government and Resistance in the

54:04

Christian Tradition. Very good. And this book right here, Lex Rex by Rutherford.

54:11

This is a little bigger. Take you some time, but it's worth your life. My point is this, is if you read books from Canon Press like this, you'll be an abolitionist.

54:24

If you accept Brother Doug's position on the law, word of God, I think to be consistent and to adopt what he tells you, because he told me a lot, then you'll be an immediatist, an abolitionist.

54:37

You'll work on prophetic mission more than pragmatism. What I'm trying to say is this,

54:42

Canon Press will sell you books that will make you agree with us. Get it?

54:48

I'm trying to grab you in your theonomy, Doug. So get these books and then understand, you know, if I adopt what

54:56

I'm learning from Canon Press, I can't accept the unrighteous increments. I can't accept pragmatism over prophetic ministry.

55:03

I must be consistent, okay? And an acceptance of, you know, the idea of the courts being supreme in a way.

55:11

Well, that's key. If it comes down to, well, we can't do that. Well, why not? Well, because the court said, well,

55:19

God says. Well, but the court said. Now we have two competing voices. So who's going to win?

55:25

And who, more importantly, are we going to be obedient to, regardless of the consequences, which is something that all of us need to consider.

55:32

Yes. So I want to keep talking, but I actually have to use the bathroom. Okay. We've been going an hour.

55:39

That makes three of us. Hey, can we, hey, Gabe, can we take like a, like a three -minute break here? Because we might as well just keep going.

55:45

I don't want to, I don't want to push this off to next week, right? Yeah. So let's keep going. Gabe, can you put a slide over?

55:51

Can you put us on pause or something so we can take like a, like say a three -minute break, come right back, and kick this off? Yeah, we can do that.

55:57

All right. All right, everyone. Stay with us. Don't go anywhere. Three -minute break because we're going to go ahead and continue this episode so that it's a one -stop shop, help, and resource for you on this subject.