TLP 93: Tackling Tattling | Jessica Mair Interview

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Welcome to Truth. Love. Parents. Where we use God's Word to become intentional premeditated parents.

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Here's your host, A .M. Brewster. Thank you for joining us today. Our special guest today is a dear friend of mine, and I know that what she has to offer us from God's Word will definitely meet a need in your family's life.

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I know it did in mine. So let's just go ahead and jump right in. My guest is Jessica Mayer. She's a very special person for a number of reasons.

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First, she's married to John, and the two of them have five kids, all under the age of nine. So you can know she has a lot of experience dealing with our topic today.

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She and her husband also work and live at the Wilds Christian Camp and Conference Center in Brevard, North Carolina. I know

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I've been mentioning for a while that I so badly want to introduce you to this ministry, but unfortunately, today's not the day. So moving on, we just have far too many things to discuss.

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However, I do want to point out that one of the ministries Jessica has at the Wilds is mentoring young ladies and women.

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She and her husband also have been youth workers for 11 years, and her heart for the Lord and His Word affords her many opportunities to counsel, which is why

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Jessica is also on Team TLP. She is on our counseling staff, and a number of you have received the benefit of her

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Christ -centered counsel when you've sent questions and concerns to counselor at truthloveparent .com.

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But there's something else very special about Jessica. In addition to being an amazing wife, mother, mentor, and counselor,

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Jessica was also one of my first and dearest best friends. That's right,

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Jessica is my little sister. I could not be more proud of her and how God is using her to minister to her family and to other people's families, and I'm overjoyed that she's joining us today to talk about this issue of tattling.

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Thank you for joining us, Jess. Thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Excuse my voice.

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I am struggling with allergies, cold, one of those things all put together. So I am a little bit more nasally than usual.

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But again, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I mentioned earlier that you have five kids all under the age of nine.

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So why don't you go ahead and tell us the ages of your kids? Oh, wow. Okay, so Anya is eight, and she is my second little mommy, and is just a servant.

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And I'm just so thankful for her. And God regularly reminds me that I wanted obviously a boy first.

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Well, not obvious, but that's what I wanted first was a boy. That was the ideal. And God gave me Anya. And every day,

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He has reminded me that His way is always best. And that's very humbling. But also, there's such security in knowing that.

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Then I have Ethan, and he's my little gentleman, and he is seven now.

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And then I have Isaac, and he's probably our class clown, goofball, always has something funny to say.

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Our dad likes to call him a minion. He's like the minion from Despicable Me. He's got the laugh and all.

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It's great. And he's in kindergarten this year, and so far, he hasn't gotten kicked out. So praise the Lord for that.

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And then we have Olivia, and she can say banana, just like a minion. She goes, ba -na -nee.

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And it's the, ba -na -na, something. It's adorable. I cannot do it, but her tone is hilarious.

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I do not have a favorite niece or nephew. I never want to be accused of that.

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But I do have to say that Olivia is my favorite Olivia. So I just throw that out there. Yes. Nice save.

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Favorite Olivia. Then, well, and she is my little platinum blonde, bright blue eyes, and just she fully, that is her personality as well.

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So like in your face, just there's Olivia. And then we have Logan, and he's number five, and he will be turning one next month.

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And he is number five. He can hold his own, and he's really quiet, super devious, and can run away, and no one even knows he's gone until he's been gone for like five minutes.

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It's going to be interesting raising this kid, but we're looking forward to it. Last time we were visiting, he had gotten out of the house.

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No one knew where he was. My wife went outside and found him dangling from the four -wheeler by his diaper,

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I think. The four -wheeler wasn't moving, but he was there. Just chilling. Yeah, yeah. Pretty much.

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That's Logan. As my listeners and you obviously know, I only have two kids myself.

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So I do feel pretty confident assuming that you've probably had a child or two in your house who's tattled on a sibling.

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Is that an accurate observation? I mean, my kids are pretty much perfect in every way.

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So I mean, I'm just like speaking from experience of your children. Just kidding.

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Not really, not really. But no, I think I have. I've heard it once in a while.

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I actually told my kids this evening what mommy was going to be doing, and Ethan kind of got his eyes really big and he goes, oh yeah, mommy,

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I know, I know. I was like, how do you know? Wow.

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To be honest, I mean, just to be fair, I do have some insider knowledge that a couple of your kids have tattled on a couple of their innocent cousins from time to time.

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So, you know, there's that. So yeah, I'm glad you're being honest about all this. That's good. Tattled, yes. Innocent, not so sure.

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Probably not. And they may have just been tattling on the fact that my kids were tattling on them. It's a vicious circle.

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Who knows? Okay. So let's, before we completely deteriorate, let's start our discussion with a good, solid definition.

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I like to use Merriam -Webster and they define tattling as, quote, to tell secrets about what someone else has done or to utter or disclose in gossip or chatter.

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Is that a good working definition for you or would you propose a better one? Because, I mean, we are related, but also

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I think we are coming from the same place and that's God's word. And God challenges us often to get to the heart, to realize what our motives are in things.

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So one of the things I've commonly seen in my five children and five very drastically different personalities would be the motive of to selfishly try to get someone in trouble with no desire for their wellbeing.

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And this is my main concern in tattling. And this is why I desire to even speak about it is because we tend to take care of the issue at hand, but really one of the big, huge issues at hand is that child who came right to you and is standing right in front of your face.

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We miss it completely because they're there not for the wellbeing, let's say 98 % of the time, not for the wellbeing of their brother or sister, but really more for the wellbeing of,

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I have been hurt and I want to make this right, justify myself.

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And so this is, I think it also goes very much along with Merriam -Webster's definition as well, but just to kind of break it down more in layman's terms.

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Yes. And I like it because it focuses on the idea of selfishly trying to get someone in trouble with no desire for their wellbeing.

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I mean, that's something that Merriam -Webster loses. To tell secrets about someone, we're all like, yeah, well, you shouldn't do that.

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But the selfish motivation behind it is so huge. And I know what you mean too, about forgetting about the kid standing right in front of you being selfish because you're more focused on what the other kid is doing that's so bad.

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So I want, I just want to kind of express a concern that some of our listeners may have just from the get go of this conversation.

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Isn't there a form of tattling that's good and beneficial? I mean, think about it as a parent, don't we want to know that a child is drawing on the walls or playing in the street or just trying to give his sibling a swirly?

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Oh, absolutely. That's a day -to -day basis for me. Every single one of those that you said,

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I encounter three to four times a day. And yes, I want to know or else it just would not be good at all.

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So I agree 100 % and that's where I had to really pray and consider what would be the best way to be able to get across the important information, but not to the detriment of my home or my children or health or life in general.

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And that's where, right away at the beginning, I make sure that's not emergency situations.

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So I can ask something like, is everybody okay? Did anyone get hurt? Is anything being broken? Is anyone hanging from something?

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And as moms, we also very much know, okay, if my kids are having room time, which means all my kids are in one room quietly playing,

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I know what could possibly be happening. So I can direct my question more specifically to the situation, but really the basic idea is to find out, is everybody okay?

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And then right away, once I get the response from my child, yes, everything's okay.

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Then, of course, at least my children do want to jump in very quickly after they say yes and go, yes, and that's where I cut them off right away.

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And I stopped them and I asked them to listen to me first. And then

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I asked some probing questions. That sounds pretty fair. Cause you know, you don't want to, you know, obviously if Logan is hanging upside down off of the four wheeler by his diaper, you want to know about that.

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So that's really huge. Um, but then I guess, I mean, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves either, but I'm assuming that if it's, if that's being done correctly, then it's not really technically tattling at that point.

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Correct. Yes. Okay. That sounds, that sounds totally fair. And if hopefully we'll, any other questions the listeners may have, we'll be able to clarify by the end.

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So, okay, let's start out with why do we need to deal with this issue in the first place? I mean, why do you think is tattling a problem biblically?

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Well, with each situation, we need to figure out what, what is going on in the heart.

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Um, we need to figure out why our child feels he needs to tattle before we can go any further.

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What is that driving factor? So it could be, are they afraid someone will get hurt, which is actually probably one of the best ways that you'd want to tattle or communicate with your parents.

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Um, do they think they're being treated unfairly? Are they angry and they want the other person or sibling to get in trouble because they're just angry with the situation?

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You know, they didn't win that game in the bedroom and that's just dumb. And so I want to get my brother or sister in trouble.

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Hurt people, hurt people. Exactly. Are they tempted to lie to get their way? And this is, this is obviously we would say, wow, you know, that sounds really, really bad.

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But how many times have we twisted our words to make things sound worse than what they really are so that we can get our way, whether it's someone thinking better of us or, um, us getting a promotion or whatever.

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It's the same thing with children. You know, they know if I can twist these words in a certain way, then

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I can get my way. And I'm sure there are a lot of parents who are out there saying, my kid would never do that.

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And that's where I really want to challenge, um, parents to really consider that we are born sinners.

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And for us to have this opinion that our kid just, this is just too horrible for my kid to even consider there.

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That's just not how they think. They would never do that. Exactly. But I think the main point you really point getting out to me is the fact that oftentimes we have it in our head, why our kid does what our kid does.

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And that's, that's foolish because we're all hardwired with the ability to paint ourselves in the best possible light while simultaneously painting someone else in the worst possible light.

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And for any parent to sit back and go, well, my child wouldn't do that. You're basically just denying human nature. Absolutely.

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Absolutely. So this is definitely more in them already to survival of the fittest kind of thing where it's just this natural tattling to keep them above.

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So for us, we need to guard our hearts as parents to make sure we are thinking truth about our children.

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And I'm not saying let's slam dunk our kids, you know, and say you rotten sinner and you have no hope or anything.

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Our hope is in Christ and we need to be understanding having that biblical perspective of our children.

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And that starts at a very young age. And I see in some young parents who struggle, I'm saying, well, it's just a little kid or they're just a little baby.

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Well, they do have sinful motives behind everything they do because number one, they are a sinner and they need

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Christ. And so we need to, before we jump into this, realize that unfortunately, our children's heart motive is most likely most of the time, especially if they're unsaved, is not for the benefit of the other person, but is only to benefit themselves.

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And when we realize this, we can be better parents. We can help them know Christ. Good. So when we're teaching our children not to tattle, what are we teaching them how to do?

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Okay. So we are teaching them to be able to communicate, to figure out how to handle a situation that those interpersonal situations and the

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Bible is everything we need for life and godliness. And I just praise the Lord every day when I come into situations where I go,

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I don't even know with one of my children, I can run to God's word and there's always an answer.

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And that is just such a weight off of my shoulders because I can put that on God and know that not only am

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I going to get the answer, but it's going to be an answer that actually changes them. And that is awesome.

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Okay. So in teaching our children not to tattle, what are we teaching them how to do? To respond biblically in their hearts and to resolve interpersonal problems.

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And as with all parenting, the benefit outweighs the work of training every time. Yeah. And that's not something we talk very much about.

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I think when we talk with children, you know, resolving interpersonal problems, but really that is so much of what we need to be focused on in our parenting.

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I love that you said that. That's great. Okay. So we have a kid coming up to us, right? And we don't know their hearts.

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We talked about, there's lots of different reasons why a child may say what they say and why they tattle the way they do.

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What do you think is the best way of determining why the child is tattling so that you know how best to help them respond in their hearts?

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I want to number one, understand their motives. And it's nearly impossible to 100 % understand any child's motives, but we want to do our very best in asking questions.

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And unless the Bible makes it clear that people do certain things for certain reasons, we don't want to assume our kids' motives.

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That is such a dangerous place to be. So I am going to ask some probing questions and that could be, you know, after we ask, of course, if anyone's gotten hurt, then

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I'm saying, but why have you come to mom and ask questions, more specific questions of why are you here?

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What has happened? And you know, once you're getting the whole story, a lot of times everything starts becoming clear.

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You know, I was playing a game and such and such broke. And then I got really mad, but then Anya hit me.

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So then, and you're realizing, okay, well, I'm seeing all of this kind of unwinding.

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And obviously this kind of depends on the age of the child too. I mean, a teen may be able to be worked through easier than a five -year -old kind of through this process, maybe finding out their hearts.

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However, I do want to say though, even if we and our children are having a hard time figuring out exactly why they're doing what they're doing,

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I just want to stop here for a minute. And I just want to encourage everyone listening, please listen to our upcoming series called the

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Mearest Christianity. It's going to be two episodes from now. It's the beginning of season four. And another cool thing too, is that the final episode of that series is going to be our 100th episode, which

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I think is awesome. But the reason I bring it up here is that we're going to discuss how you can use the scriptures to better understand why you and your family do what you do.

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It's really an invaluable resource when we're trying to parent a heart that we can't see, which is so often the case with our children who their heart's deceptive.

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They don't even know why they're doing what they're doing. They're having a hard time explaining it to us, but it can really help us with this stage or this step of trying to determine why our child is tattling so we can better parent their hearts.

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Absolutely. I think also that we don't need to know the nitty gritty details of anyone's hearts, whether it's our teen or a toddler to be able to parent them to Christ likeness.

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And that's a danger that we, well, we don't know absolutely why they did what they did.

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We can show them Christ in every action, everything that they say and do.

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And in showing them Christ, that's where the change comes. Amen. Okay. So how do you recommend training your children, um, how to correctly handle these potential tattling issues?

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Well, first talk your child through it. When they come to you, calm them down by asking them to stop talking and to listen.

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Then I always ask, does anyone hurt? If not, without even knowing the situation, we start to get to the heart.

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Normally, most parents listen to the tattling child's grievances and runoff deal with the other child who clearly has sin.

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But in so doing, they often neglect the moment to moment time where that child who's standing right in front of them has a major heart need and we're totally missing it.

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We're walking right by it. And we're addressing this big issue while the other person is dealing with most of the time selfishness and pride and anger, and they're just walking away.

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And that heart issue is not even being dealt with. So I ask, what's the problem?

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After hearing what happened, I asked, did you talk to them about it? And a lot of times I'll quote

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Matthew 18, 15, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his faults between you and him alone.

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If he listens to you, you have gained a brother. I let him know that he should go to that person with a correct attitude and ask them not to do whatever it is anymore.

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But that's the desire and really explaining to them that if you do this correctly, if you do this

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God's way, we are not in control of how the other person's going to respond. So I don't want to say this is a magical all is well and everything will be fixed because the second verse obviously very clearly explains that that's not always true, but we are responsible for our own actions, which our mother used to always say to us.

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And it is so true. So if we handle it correctly and the other person chooses to respond correctly, we have gained a brother or a friend.

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I often use that word as well for my kids to help them understand because they're normally dealing with their brother or their sister.

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So they're like, what? I gained one, one in the world. So I say, you've, you've gained a friend. There's, there's this friendship here because you have said, you know,

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I'm going to put away my discomforts and my awkwardness to be able to restore you to Christ.

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So if I see that you're making a bad choice or you're angry, you're being mean to someone, I'm going to be willing to put off anything that I really would prefer not to have to deal with so that I can restore you to Christ.

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And in turn, our relationship will even be restored. And that's the ideal if both people respond correctly, which of course doesn't always happen.

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Sure. But I'm really glad you mentioned that passage because I mean, the verse you quoted is actually Jesus himself telling us how to be reconciled with a sinning brother.

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I mean, now many people refer to this process that's outlined in Matthew 18 as, you know, church discipline or excommunication.

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I guess those are accurate descriptors, but I think the names miss the fact that the whole process is designed to help us be reconciled.

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I mean, no one should enter a church discipline situation, dead set on getting the person kicked out. They should give the individual every opportunity to repent of their sin, turn to their

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Savior. And if they refuse to respond to admonishment like a believer, well, then Jesus does say that the only recourse is to remove them from the body of believers because they're acting like an unsaved person.

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So obviously this is what we're trying to teach our kids. They should try to get their, I should say, they shouldn't try to get their siblings excommunicated.

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They should be trying to reconcile with their sibling or their friend and mom and dad may have to get involved at some point, but only because the other child refused to obey and be reconciled in the first place.

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Absolutely. And I mean, let's just be honest, excommunication sounds fabulous, you know, to some of our children.

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They're like, yes, one less in the family. More dessert for me. Exactly. But obviously we're bringing them along in their walk with the

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Lord. And God is so gracious and kind to allow us to have three children who have asked

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Jesus to come into their heart to save them. And there is such a huge difference between the child who is unsaved and really has no desire because they aren't a child of God to please

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God and the kids who are saved. And you do see that desire that they want to make things right.

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And they want to have a right relationship with God. And that's when I asked them, why do you feel like you should have come to mom to tell me this?

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And often even that question stops them. And the eyes get really, really big because my children who are children of God, they have that moment of, uh, because deep down they know exactly why they came to mom.

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They weren't happy with what was going on. And so really putting that, they might not ever answer that question, but putting that question out in front of them just to display their heart.

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Christ does this to us often in God's word, where he shows the heart of the person who didn't really see it.

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They didn't see their struggles. And then they all of a sudden saw that nasty, ugly heart and went, Oh, look at that sin.

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So we're, we're kind of doing the same thing. We're putting that truth out in front of them and saying, Hey, what was your purpose?

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What was your reason for coming and telling mom? Because then it kind of leaves them going, uh, because who really wants to tell the real reason they came?

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So, um, uh, after discussing that, I remind them that love rejoices in truth.

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And this is really huge in our house that we often, often talk about that.

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We do not rejoice in sin, but we rejoice in truth. And so anytime that we are talking about our brother or sister,

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Oh, our brother had to get a timeout. Um, and we use the word timeout just to generically for any kind of discipline that we do in our home.

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We just generically call it timeouts, but you know, any of my children talking about anybody else's timeouts or getting in trouble, anything like that really is rejoicing in somebody's sin.

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And God says that we shouldn't be rejoicing in sin, but we should be rejoicing in truth. So sometimes it's even opportunity for a child to be rejoicing in sin, to be able to just go tell somebody else how bad that other person was.

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You know, mom doesn't know because she wasn't in the room, but man, I just, I got to tell somebody. And a lot of kids are that way.

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You might have a child that way that you're, you're just sitting there nodding and going, Oh yes, I have that too.

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So we're really wanting to talk about that as well, that, you know, this is an opportunity to rejoice in sin, but we want to rejoice in truth.

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And what is truth? God is truth. So right now you coming to mommy, are you rejoicing in God's word and who he is and his truth?

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Or are you rejoicing in sin, wrongdoing? And that really should bring that child to really consider what was their motive.

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Once my child has a repentant spirit and understands the importance of reconciliation, then and only then

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I send him to talk to the other person. And so when my kid is not happy and ticked with the situation, that's probably not really a great time for me to say, now go make it right with your brother and sister, because I promise you they're probably not going to.

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So I really want to make sure that they are, have that repentant spirit. And they see that their motive behind coming and telling mom was just disgusting.

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It was gross. It was wrong. And as soon as we, as parents understand that we need to communicate our children's sin, as God sees our children's sin and sees our sin, the better parents we can be.

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Because when we go, Oh, see, that's not okay. Well, that's not okay.

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That is not even God's opinion of sin. God looks at sin and it disgusts him and it's vile and it's directly against his character.

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He uses very big, horrible words for sin. And so when I hear my child tattling or talking about another person,

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I want to make sure that they understand that's gross. That is disgusting. And in a

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Christian's life, there is no room for that. So I'm not making it look pretty or even acceptable.

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I am making it look vile because that's what it is. I hope that's helpful.

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It is. I think it's great. However, I think probably one of the big questions out there right now is, okay, so how do

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I do this? This is not what we do in our home. This is not how I handle situations. I may have been guilty of saying,

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Oh, that's not okay. Or I may be guilty of just ignoring the tattler and going right to the person who did the wrong in the first place.

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And so this person might be sitting there out there listening, going, okay, well, how do I do this? And listen, I recommend to you as I have many times that anytime you need to make a change to your family culture, please have a family meeting before you institute something like this or try to use it.

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Absolutely. I mean, let's just say hypothetically that tattling in your family is like this, right? The little sister runs into the room screaming that her older brother did let her play on the

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X -Box. Well, your MO is then to call into the other room and tell him to be nice to his sister, right?

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Of course, he responds that she was hitting him with the remote. She calls him a liar. And now before you know it, you told everyone to get off the

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X -Box and go play outside. Now, of course, none of these, none of us would ever handle it that way.

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Right? But if you did, and you tried to institute these suggestions during that conflict, for the first time, you are going to have an uphill battle.

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Your daughter's just used to you doing what she tells you to do, right? And my brother, you go punish him.

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And you're like, okay. So if you suggest that she has sin in this issue, while she's all upset about her brother, what you're trying to accomplish may totally be lost, and you're making it harder on yourself.

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So instead, please sit down with the family tonight. Think through this. Pray through this a little bit more. Sit down with the family tomorrow night and explain that the

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Lord has helped you see that there are some things in the family that don't glorify him. I would suggest you apologize for your own involvement in the times that you've encouraged this behavior and allowed it to take place.

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But then unfold for them God's view of tattling. Like my sister just so beautifully said, she just talks about the fact that God hates sin.

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All sin put Christ on the cross, no matter how small it may be to us. That selfishness in our tattling is a wicked sin.

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It's an act of rebellion against God. And then we also need to explain to them that the goal of love and restoration needs to be in our hearts.

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And then you need to unfold for them the new steps that everyone in the house needs to be taking from now on when they've been sinned against by anybody else.

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Absolutely. Once you've had that conversation, it will be important to coach them through it.

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Most definitely. And never assume that just because you had a meeting, a family meeting, that now everyone's going to go from there and do it the right way.

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You're going to have to step through it. You're going to have to, in a way, have a mini family meeting in that moment.

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But the beautiful thing is you can kind of touch back. Like you said earlier, you can kind of put up that finger and that one little finger is touching back to the larger conversations you've had multiple times before.

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But you have to have those conversations before that holding up that finger communicates anything to your kid. Just real quick review,

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I would say, did you talk to them first? And they say no, then I would stop talking. I would immediately say, then stop talking to me and go and talk to them right away.

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And this is, of course, after we have already, they already know the correct thing to do.

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So I don't even let my children tell me about it because I want them to realize it's never okay to go talk about somebody to somebody else if you haven't gone to them first.

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Because then that's called gossip in a lot of areas because this is going to roll over into a lot of interpersonal relationships that they have.

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So I want them to really walk away knowing, well, we don't ever talk about other people's issues or your issue with somebody else with other people.

29:31

The only people that you do go and talk to in Matthew 18 is somebody specific who can help with the situation.

29:38

And so, of course, they're coming to mommy and mommy can help with that situation. But first,

29:44

I don't even want to speak to them until they've correctly handled it. So I'm coaching them through that.

29:51

And then I would say, okay, I would go with them the first or second time and say, hey,

29:57

I'm going to stand here and watch you talk with this person and listen to how that they're having their conversation.

30:04

So it's not one of my kids having attitude going, well, I told you not to do this. You just didn't listen. So I went and got mom, because that's not what we don't, we don't want that heart in it.

30:14

So I'm going with him and I'm coaching him through it. And then I'm coaching his sibling through responding correctly.

30:21

And there I'm helping both of their hearts to grow closer to God instead of making one embittered to the situation, which would be the one who's getting in trouble because they were tattled on and having the other one feel self -righteous because they were just told they could tattle on their brother and sister and there were no consequences in it whatsoever.

30:41

Yeah. Yeah. You know, most people really aren't very good at improvising. So, I mean, our house, we've kind of scripted it out for the kids, what their responses can be to each other.

30:51

For example, like the child is allowed to say, will you please stop doing, you know, whatever, fill in the blank. Or they're allowed to say mom and dad have told you not to do that.

30:59

Will you please stop? So in theory, you know, the offending child should realize they're being offensive, annoying or outright disobeying their parents rules and they should stop.

31:08

Sometimes I have to help the other child realize that they do need to apologize in the situation. You know, if they've sinned against their sibling, then to merely stop their behavior just isn't enough.

31:17

So, you know, as I'm sitting there with my child, the first couple of times coaching them through it, you know, the first child goes, you know, you know, will you please stop doing that?

31:24

Mom and dad have asked you not to do that. And so the other child goes, okay, well, then perhaps you need to coach the second child to ask for forgiveness.

31:31

They, you know, they have a responsibility before God to seek forgiveness because only then will true reconciliation occur.

31:37

And I think that's really important. So the child's not necessarily going to think that, um, they're going to say, okay, well,

31:42

I stopped. Everything's okay. Well, not technically, you still sinned against that person. You should ask him, will you please forgive me?

31:47

The other person should say, yes, I do forgive you. And then they can go on playing. And once you've done that a couple of times with your kids, uh, working that through, helping them to remember the script and whatnot, because you know, that's one way of helping them.

31:59

Um, then, then you can kind of let, start letting them do that on their own. And I have loved the times that I've been, um, down the hall and I've heard this happening where, you know, one of them is getting on the other one's nerves and they'll handle this correctly.

32:11

And, and the second one will actually apologize for what they did. It's such a beautiful thing. Oh, yes.

32:17

That's just, those are great reminders that we just need to keep doing what's right as parents, because I, I've had those moments too, where you're like, oh, yay, they're getting it.

32:27

This is so exciting. Uh, so yeah, it should definitely be depending on their age, of course, because that is not something

32:34

I would be prepared for. Olivia just know that she's going to respond correctly.

32:39

And she's my three -year -old or of course, Logan can't even speak. You know, he usually just winds up and hits the person that's annoying him.

32:45

So we're just working on not hitting exactly. I tend for that. No, just kidding. It's all that karate.

32:52

Um, but absolutely we want to work through it with them so that it becomes a second nature to them.

32:59

But let's say that second party does not respond correctly. Matthew 18 says, but if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

33:13

And so those two or three witnesses, of course, in our family would be mom or dad, depending on how big of a deal this is, because, you know, right now

33:22

I'm talking about my toddlers and my eight and under. And so some of you parents are thinking, man,

33:28

I have way bigger problems on my plate right now. Absolutely.

33:33

But you know, if you have one teen in your house, who's going astray and you have another teen who is desiring and really trying to do the

33:42

Lord's will and do what's right, teaching this to them is going to be one of the strongest, most wonderful gifts that you could give them.

33:53

Because when they know one of their siblings is doing wrong, they can go to them and talk to them about it really in desiring for this other teen to be reconciled and be right with Christ.

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And when his words aren't enough and he has communicated with his brother or sister that, hey, you know what?

34:11

I know you're doing this and it is wrong and it's going to hurt you. And I'm going to have to tell mom and dad, because you just have not stopped.

34:19

That is the correct communication. And when they bring you and dad in to this situation and you all have this opportunity to talk, it's really, really hard for that one teen trying to do what's right.

34:30

But man, is it going to grow their character? And man, are they going to see that doing right, there's always blessing, whether it's now or in heaven, there's always blessing.

34:41

And doing wrong, there's always going to be destruction, pain, hurt.

34:47

Always. That is how it happens every time. So we want to remember, it's so important to acknowledge their motives.

34:55

Our children should come to the place that when they have sinned against, their one desire is to restore the relationship so that they may live a life well -pleasing to God.

35:05

That's so great. Before we move on, I'm sorry to interrupt again, but I just want to say,

35:10

I want to point out something really great that you just said there too. That can be part of your script as well. I've actually shared that with my older boys here at Victory Academy.

35:19

I tell them, it's really appropriate to say to a guy, hey man, you really shouldn't be doing that. If the guy's like, yeah, whatever.

35:24

He's like, hey, you know what's wrong. And if you keep doing that, I'm going to have to let Mr. Brewster know. And once you've done that, you've put the ball into their court.

35:33

You're not going behind their back at that point. They know that you have a responsibility and that you're going to do it.

35:39

And that way, if the other child does have to go and talk to the parent, it really isn't a surprise at that point.

35:45

So I think what you said there was really important. And whether it's an older child or a younger child, I think it's valuable for that person in the reconciliation process to be able to say, you know, you really shouldn't be doing that.

35:56

And if the kid says, I don't even care, I'm going to keep doing it and say, well, you know, I have to go tell mom and dad. That's fantastic.

36:03

Absolutely. And I think a lot of times for our teens, if we could even say, hey, if you're the saying,

36:09

I'm going to have to talk to mom and dad, it's really, really great to give a timeline where they could say, hey, you know what?

36:15

I'm going to give you to this evening to really be able to go to mom and dad and talk to them first.

36:20

And then I'm going to go to them and I'm going to go to them at nine o 'clock this evening or whatever time.

36:26

And I think that also helps because that's showing them, I don't have a desire to tell on you.

36:31

I really don't. I have no heart in destroying your life. I'm actually doing this because I love you.

36:37

And so if you don't talk to mom and dad before this time, then I will be going to them at that time.

36:42

And that kind of opens up an opportunity as well. And this is for somebody, obviously, who is wiser, more mature in God's word, and who can make these decisions.

36:53

But as you parents are listening right now, you know your kids, you know where they're at, and you could entrust this to certain one of your kids, whereas other ones, it might not be even an option that you would give them.

37:06

Yeah, it's not a cut and dry situation. I can think to myself, one sibling finds that the other one's been smoking.

37:12

To be honest, that's probably one where the kid could say, you know what? This is something that we need to talk to mom and dad about.

37:19

But if the other child's been cutting, potentially, again, physical harm, threatening suicide, or somebody else sleeping around, obviously maturity would dictate that that's something that needs to be dealt with right away.

37:32

So this is a very complex issue. We don't want to oversimplify it for the listeners. But at the same time, most of us, when it comes to tattling, we're dealing with little kids who are trying to get their siblings in trouble.

37:42

And oftentimes, to be honest, the teens aren't saying anything. You know, they know their older sibling or younger sibling is doing something, and they just don't want to even be involved.

37:50

And so that's a whole other issue. But if you have any questions about this, if you in particular have an issue, you're trying to help your kids, or you're concerned about what do

37:57

I do in this situation? Obviously, feel free to write us at counselor at truthloveparent .com.

38:04

Jessica may be the one answering, somebody else may be the one answering. But by all means, we don't want to go on and on forever today.

38:11

But we at the same time, we also want to give you guys the opportunity to understand the details and the intricacies of working this out in your home.

38:18

And so on the other side, we haven't touched base on this at all, because this kid always seems to be the one who gets all of the attention, the one being tattled on.

38:27

But we do want to make sure that their heart is willing and soft to be able to listen to the counsel or the admonishment from the other person.

38:38

And so we just really want to make sure that they are at a point of being able to receive this.

38:44

And so when my child who has been tattling goes to the person who has done wrong against them or in the situation,

38:52

I really do want to keep a pulse on that situation completely, making sure that there is no, well,

38:59

I told you not to do this. You didn't listen to me. So I went to mom and dad. Now you need to apologize. But that person really understands, like we were just talking about with the teen, that this person really wanted their good.

39:11

And if they didn't, I would really strongly encourage, there have been times where one of my children have come to me and they have had horrible motives.

39:22

And when I ask them to go make things right with their brother and sister, they have to apologize. One saying, you know what, when

39:29

I went to mom and dad, I just was angry at you and I wanted you to get in trouble. Will you forgive me for that?

39:35

And then after apologizing, say, but you know what, I went to them because you were hurting such and such person.

39:43

And I didn't, I knew that that was not right for you to do. And you didn't listen to me when

39:49

I asked you to stop. And hopefully by then, a lot of times when we're giving that example of humility and asking forgiveness already, that brings along the other person.

40:00

If not, you know, then the mom's there or the dad's there and we can be listening in and be taking care of that situation.

40:08

And again, that is completely up to the judgment of each parent and the situation. It might be a really small, petty thing that neither one's really angry.

40:17

It's just like kind of blew up and people responded the wrong way. Or it could be a really big deal. So that again is something that the parents just have to keep a tab on.

40:25

But you want to make sure that the heart of that child is correct where they're apologizing as well for even having to put their sibling in that situation to have to go to their parent in the first place.

40:36

Here's the last quick note before we look at some real life scenarios. We have been spending all this about the tattler, talking about them and the importance of them doing it correctly and having the right heart motive.

40:48

But it is also important that the other child most likely really did sin.

40:54

And we don't want anyone to think that I'm just suggesting we don't deal with that sin. Now, if I could do that,

41:00

I would be such a happy mom. You know, just pick one and not have to do the other one. I don't know. Is that a thing? No, I don't think so.

41:06

Okay. Man, would that be a time saver? But apparently it's not a thing.

41:12

So let's go with this. For example, even if the tattling child understands how his heart displeases the

41:18

Lord and goes back to reconcile, the offending child may not listen to him. In those situations,

41:24

I need to step in and be a part of the reconciliation. Of course, our children have already experienced what that looks like when

41:32

I step them through it in the first few times or a hundred times.

41:38

Sometimes even when the offending child has seen the error of his ways and apologized, I still need to have my finger on the pulse of the situation.

41:48

Oh yeah, that's huge. I mean, I can imagine my daughter breaks my son's toy and then, you know, he correctly admonishes her and she accepts it and she genuinely apologizes.

41:58

But you know, as dad, it's still going to be really important to know about that incident. So I can parent my daughter well moving forward.

42:05

I mean, her destructive streak will obviously need to be addressed, especially if this is something that we've dealt with in the past.

42:11

Absolutely. And I can't imagine how horrible that would be, because even when my kids go to school, we have an amazing

42:19

Christian school that we send two of our boys to, and they keep such short sin accounts. And it helps me be able to have, again, keep my finger on the pulse of their spiritual wellbeing and what's struggling.

42:33

So I can't even imagine if my kids were just dealing with these situations and not telling mom, you know, apparently our one child is extremely destructive.

42:41

We never know because everything's cleaned up and everything's taken care of behind doors. That wouldn't be helpful for them or for us in parenting.

42:49

So of course they want to want to admonish their brother and sister. Hey, you know, we've got things right, but you probably should tell mom and dad that this happened.

42:58

I got angry with my sister and yelled at them. I hurt this person. I broke this thing so that we know what's going on and that it's not, doesn't become this pact between brother and sister, that they're keeping things from their parents either, which can happen.

43:12

Yes. Yeah. And then if the child says, well, no, I'm not going to tell mom and dad. Well, now we're kind of back to square one where the child might be tempted to run off and tattle, but they're going to say, you know, well, you really need to.

43:24

And if you don't tell mom and dad, and then we're right back where we were before. So it really, the system does work.

43:30

God's word really does know. He knows what he's talking about. That's awesome. And this is, this is great stuff. So let's just, um, let's just see, what does this look like in your family?

43:39

You know, how does it play out in your family? So I am huge on examples like day to day examples, because that's, that's who

43:46

I am and that's how I think. So I'm just going to give you, this has not happened, but it obviously could have.

43:53

And actually the people who I picked were two people who this wouldn't normally happen to.

43:59

Um, I could pick some other ones that it would in my family, but not, not these two, but my son, exactly.

44:05

We're not going there to protect the guilty. Exactly. My son, Ethan, who's seven comes to me and says that his sister

44:12

Anya, who is eight is not sharing her toy with him. Ethan in a whiny voice says, mom,

44:19

Anya's not. And me, I would say with the finger up, because I can picture this in my head right now,

44:26

I would look at him and say, did you talk to her? And he would say, no. And then

44:31

I would say, then I need you to go and talk to her in a loving, true speaking way, not to get what you want, but to help her please the

44:40

Lord. And that's huge. Like reminding him what his motive truly should be. It might not be there yet, but truth has a way of pulling emotions along with it if we allow it to.

44:53

So then Ethan says, Anya, will you please be willing to share toys with me so we both can do right and right and pleasing to God.

45:02

Now let's say that instead of tattling, he has already talked correctly to her and she's ignoring him.

45:07

Or after, after I sent him back to her, she still refuses to share. Ethan says, mom,

45:13

I talked to Anya about being kind and sharing toys and she's not willing to listen. So this is the very first time he comes to me.

45:21

Okay. And this is what I expect of my kids. And my older ones have gotten really good at this. My younger ones are still greatly struggling, but Anya and Ethan will come to me.

45:30

And before anything, they will say, I talk too. And as soon as they started that way,

45:37

I already know, okay. Communication has been correct. Motive should be close to being in check, should be close to being in check.

45:46

Not always. And then I'm already understanding, okay, where we're at. So this is kind of our script for our family.

45:54

So they know this is what needs to come out first. So I talked to Anya about being kind and sharing toys and she is not willing to listen.

46:02

So then now I don't have to ask, is anyone getting hurt? Or did you talk to her already? I already know.

46:07

So I say, thank you, Ethan, for handling it the right way. I would love to go with you so you can help

46:12

Anya make right choices that please God. Okay. I'm very careful with my words because I want him to realize the goal is to bring

46:21

Anya back to the right relationship with Christ. And in so speaking this truth to him,

46:27

I am reminding him and myself what the goal is. Not that my daughter's putting me out and Ethan's putting me out as well, because I could be folding laundry or emptying out the dishwasher or disciplining somebody else.

46:41

But our one goal, Ethan and mine together, is to help Anya bring her back in the right relationship with God.

46:49

Oh, and that's so huge too, because I mean, I know as a parent, sometimes my kid comes to me the right way. Hey dad, you know,

46:54

I just wanted to let you know such and such is happening. And all of a sudden I'm annoyed. I've talked to that kid about that thing so many times.

47:01

Then they're still doing it. What in the world? And I need to be reminded that reconciliation is the biggest deal, but my child being reconciled with God is the ultimate deal.

47:12

Absolutely. And I really think that as we keep that in the forefront of our mind, it helps our motives to change slowly but surely.

47:20

We are sinners and our first reaction will always be sin, unfortunately, most of the time.

47:29

But our response, which is that thought through moment, we can pull back our reaction.

47:36

We can speak truth into our life or into somebody else's life. And then there can be positive responses from there.

47:42

And so even in this walk through with my son or with my daughter, that's what I'm teaching them. I'm saying, hey, you know what?

47:48

Sometimes our emotions aren't there and we are really crabby and we're responding incorrectly.

47:54

But that's why God gives me truth. And I can preach truth to myself through this whole situation and we can end pleasing

48:01

God. So then I would say, and then I need to make sure that my heart's desiring

48:06

Anya's well -being. And we just talked about this. And I wouldn't want to confront her out of selfishness either.

48:13

And so if I see that coming up, that's even something I could communicate to Ethan. You know what?

48:19

Why don't we pray for Anya right now? Because mom is even struggling with selfishness of being annoyed with this situation.

48:26

And I have done this multiple times during the day where I have said, hey, why don't we pray together?

48:32

Because mommy's struggling with bad responses as well. Well, this is so good. And honestly, there's just so much more that could be said about this.

48:41

But I really think these steps and these scripts that we've shared, hopefully they should get the ball rolling for you and your family so that you can start tackling tattling at home.

48:50

This is huge and we want so badly to help. So what I'm going to do is I don't always do this when I have an interview, but I want to have some free episode notes available for you with all of Jessica's ideas.

49:01

You can find them at truthloveparent .com. Just look for the link in the description. On our next episode, we'll bring season three to a close with a discussion about how to train your child to stay with God.

49:12

Some people say that Proverbs 22, 6 is just a general truth that sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't.

49:18

Well, I don't believe that's the case. I believe that verse is a promise, but it's a conditional promise that too many of us misunderstand.

49:24

So please join us next time for that discussion. Lastly, I'd like to thank our patrons Ray and Carolyn for their generous support of TLP.

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If you believe the Lord would be glorified by financially supporting Truth Love Parent yourself, I'd encourage you to click on the support

49:39

TLP link in the description. Even a dollar a month can help us equip hurting families with God's truth.

49:46

I know, tattling is all too real of a problem and it doesn't glorify God. So let's help our break the habit of tattling by starting the habit of loving their

49:55

God and friends. Truth. Love. Parents is part of the

50:01

Evermind Ministries family and is dedicated to helping you become an intentional premeditated parent.

50:09

Join us next time as we search God's word for the truth your family needs today.