Hateful Godless Pagans and More

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November 1, 2011

This past weekend I saw a tweet about a brother who had gone to the Veritas National Apologetics Conference at the Costa Mesa Calvary Chapel in California. He wore his own version of the Hadith 2425 t-shirt and went to Ergun Caner’s table in the bookstore. The resultant encounter was narrated today on the Dividing Line as he called in and gave us a report on what happened. According to Ergun Caner, if you catch him lying for years on end, making up stories about growing up in Turkey, speaking Arabic, debating Muslims, etc., and you dare to continue to challenge his promotion by Norman Geisler and Veritas Seminary as an “expert” on Islam, you “hate” him and his ministry, and Norman Geisler and his ministry, and you are a “godless pagan.” He won’t answer your question, and he won’t dialogue with you. He will, however, sick the security guys on you. They will then keep an eye on you if you stick around, and eventually ask you if you are “with Alpha and Omega Ministries.” Hardly the actions of a repentant person, to be sure. We were also informed that someone else actually interrupted Caner’s talk and called him a fraud—which, while true, is about the dumbest way you can express that truth. Not only does it damage your credibility, but one thing folks just don’t understand: when you do something like that, you know the other guy will get the last word. And since the people in the audience have no idea what you are babbling about, and lack the background to understand, he will, if he’s smart, spin it to his own advantage, which is what Caner did. Then we took lots of other calls on lots of topics, letting open phones drive us till about 20 after.

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00:13: Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.
00:19: The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
00:28: Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
00:34: This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
00:43: United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
00:51: James White. And good morning, welcome to the Dividing Line. On a Tuesday morning, we are back live here in Phoenix, Arizona, November 1st.
01:01: I knew that October would go by very, very quickly. It's a beautiful chord there.
01:08: Did you want me to start singing something or? Okay, all right, good. Yeah, I just got the, well, he's the rookie look from Rich.
01:17: I say the probie, personally, but he doesn't like that either, but anyhow, it's good to be back with you.
01:23: Open phones, 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.
01:30: We have not had phone calls in a very long time. You know,
01:36: I do that too. I make nervous movements like that. You must have gotten it. It's my right elbow.
01:42: Sorry. You must have gotten that from me. I apologize. Anyway, yes,
01:50: I will cough once or twice. And because I am attempting to completely rearrange how
01:56: I have things laid out for the Dividing Line, I didn't have the one attachment that I needed to get everything working right.
02:03: So everything's, ah, and trying to reach the cough drop, which is where I cover for my coughs is a little bit difficult right now.
02:10: I should be able to get to it, but I might destroy everything in the process. We are doing a little bit of coughing for the obvious reason that we're still fighting stuff that, well,
02:22: I logged, I want to check, I didn't get a chance this morning to check my frequent flyer account at U .S.
02:28: Airways, but estimated 21 ,000 miles in October, estimated since October 11th, actually, that's an awful long time in sealed metal tubes with all sorts of other people.
02:45: There's a little button at the bottom. You slide to one side and then it comes off. I'm helping folks put batteries in the flip video camera, so that, yeah, so that we can record some of the phone calls there.
02:58: Because sometimes we get interesting phone calls, like, I mean, what if, what if Guardian called in with his list after what, three years now, three, four years, something like that?
03:07: If y 'all can't do it, just bring it in here and I will show you the true meaning of multitasking is I will install batteries while speaking at the same time.
03:15: No. What's wrong? They got to go in the right direction.
03:24: Anyway, I was down in Nolens. I was in New Orleans on Wednesday and Thursday evening and then was in Laurel, Mississippi on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
03:45: Flew back yesterday. You would think flying back from New Orleans would not be a big deal, but US Airways doesn't have direct flight from New Orleans anymore, so to fly to New Orleans, I had to fly through Charlotte and to fly back,
03:58: I had to fly through Philadelphia. Let me tell you something. My frequent flyer account is very healthy and I am seriously wondering about the possibility of making it to platinum for this year.
04:11: I'm not sure. Do you get just more peanuts when you become platinum? I'm not really sure, but we'll take a look at that.
04:23: I had a great time with the brethren down there. Spoke for two nights in a row on Islam and I'm enjoying getting to develop new materials on Islam.
04:36: I'm just waiting for the first church to ask me to do something more than a basic introduction. Do something in depth because there are some really neat topics.
04:43: In fact, did you all see that David Wood video? I need to link to that on my blog. I just haven't gotten around to it.
04:49: I haven't gotten around to a lot of things right now. Who Killed Muhammad video?
04:54: That was so well done. Well done, David. Excellent work. Excellent work indeed. Really, really did a good job on that and I was highly, highly impressed with what he did on that one.
05:09: But there's all sorts of topics like that I would love to be getting into more depth, but it's neat to get to produce that new material and present it to folks.
05:17: And then my frustration in Laurel, and I think it was a frustration that Pastor Jerry sensed, is that all my sessions were like 45 to at most 55 minutes long.
05:32: You can't cover Mormonism meaningfully in that time. You really can't. And it was hard.
05:38: So, they're going to have me back sometime when I can actually just do one subject and have the whole weekend and do it in depth and tell all my stories and stuff like that.
05:46: And that'll be very, very helpful. Boy, we had a lot of interesting things going on while I was gone.
05:58: I have a ... In fact, he's online. I'll bring him up here in just a second.
06:04: I listened this morning to someone managed to put together a record,
06:15: I guess, on their phone or an MP3 recorder. I don't know. They record a section of Eric Encantor's presentation at the
06:24: Big Apologetics Conference at Calvary Chapel, the big
06:30: Vatican Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. And it's dead, huh?
06:38: Wow. I wonder what happened to it. Might need to plug it into a computer for a while to reset it or something.
06:46: That might be something good. But we do not have video today. No videos being posted on the YouTube channel of today's program, unfortunately.
06:53: Anyhow, and I got to listen to the last ... How long is this thing?
06:59: Let me ... Turretinfan posted this morning. 21 minutes and 41 seconds of Cantor's presentation.
07:08: And I'd love to hear the whole thing. I'll be very interested to see if they make it available online. What would be really, really interesting is if they make everything else but his available online.
07:21: What? I cannot read lips. I apologize. Yeah, I know.
07:26: I said, while you weren't listening to me, I said he's online. So a good probie can multitask.
07:34: You can hear two things at the same time. Okay, that's just all there is to it. Anyways, if they make it available,
07:40: I would like to listen to the whole thing because it was the secret of Islam. And what it was was a comparison of Islam and Mormonism.
07:48: And there are fascinating parallels, primarily because you've got two guys claiming to be a prophet and in some way, shape, or form trying to make themselves consistent with people who came before them, specifically
08:02: Jesus and the New Testament. And so yeah, there's, you know, they were both monogamous before they became prophets and then became polygamous and blah, blah, blah.
08:13: And you know, they insert themselves in the Bible. And yeah, there's a very, very interesting parallels. But I would love to listen to this entire thing because some of the parallels were real stretches.
08:25: And when it comes to Mormonism, I know Mormonism a whole lot better than Erkin Cantor does. And there were a couple real long stretches that were made in this particular presentation that just made me go, hmm, really, is that where we're going?
08:42: And so anyways, I would be very interested in listening to the entirety of that particular presentation.
08:53: And I would, I'm going to keep looking. Now one thing he did point out that was very, very interesting, very, very interesting.
09:03: And I did not, I did not recognize this. But the
09:10: Mountain Meadows Massacre, now I bet you Erkin Cantor has not been to the location of the
09:15: Mountain Meadows Massacre. I have in Southern Utah. But the Mountain Meadows Massacre, he said it took place on September 11th and he drew the parallel between September 11th, 2001 and Jihad and the
09:31: Mountain Meadows Massacre, which he said was September 11th, 1857. Actually, it was
09:36: September 7th through 11th. The 11th was the last day. So that was a little bit of a stretch.
09:45: But still, it's interesting that there was a connection with September 11th, but it was 1857.
09:55: Now, the stretch is that the Islamic concept of Jihad and what certain people did in Southern Utah, that there's a parallel at that point.
10:10: I'm not sure we can go that far. So anyways, I'll be looking to see if that is available.
10:15: Now what we'd like to start off on the program today with is, I got word,
10:22: I forget when it was, I was told when I came in the channel to check my Twitter feed and I had to scroll quite a ways.
10:29: So it was when I had been offline for quite some time, that a fellow in California had shown up at this conference.
10:38: He didn't have the Hadith 2425 shirt that we have on the website, and I need to relink that, that had the angel
10:46: Contreras uber cool graphic on it. But he did have one that he had made saying, could you please quote
10:54: Hadith 2425 and tell us what its significance is to Quran. And let me repeat, for everybody who isn't aware, there is a
11:00: Hadith 2425. The point of this whole thing is to demonstrate that even to this day,
11:08: Ergen Kanner and Norman Geisler refused to admit the obvious. And that is that the excuses that Norman Geisler have posted, which
11:15: I know came directly from Ergen Kanner, I know this was the stuff that they passed out at Liberty, but it's still on his website.
11:22: Well, at least it was last time I checked, I haven't checked in about two weeks now, maybe three weeks. But the excuses that have been offered are absolutely ridiculous.
11:33: They are beyond absurd. They have been fully refuted. And as a result, you have
11:42: Christians who are just simply acting in a grossly untruthful fashion.
11:48: That's just all there is to it. It's just, it's a grossly untruthful thing to act in the way that they're acting.
11:57: And they just refuse to repent. They refuse to admit. And the question is a perfectly valid question.
12:05: In light of the excuses that have been offered by Ergen Kanner and Norman Geisler. Now, I got on Twitter and here's a fellow and his name's
12:16: Colin in California. And he's saying, hey, I wore the shirt to the to the conference.
12:23: And so let's let's go ahead and let's talk with Colin in California. Hey, Colin.
12:30: Hey, how you doing? Doing pretty good. So you are the brave man. I assume that you were the only one at the conference wearing a shirt that mentions
12:40: Hadith 2425. I believe so. You didn't see anybody else. Now you made this.
12:47: Tell us exactly what it says on the shirt. It says, please quote
12:53: Hadith 2425 and explain its relevance to the Quran. That's all it says. That's all it says.
12:59: No pictures, no graphics, no graphics or nothing. All right. And so there was nothing that mentions either
13:05: Ergen Kanner or Norman Geisler by name on your shirt, is there? No. Uh huh.
13:11: OK. So you showed up. This was the Costa Mesa Calvary Chapel?
13:18: Yes. OK. All right. And what. Tell us what happened.
13:23: I mean, you Twitter is unfortunately very, very brief in what it can say.
13:29: So I've only gotten, you know, snippets at 140 characters a shot because you mentioned at some point that he was sitting at a table.
13:38: So had you attended some sessions or what would you tell them? I attended everything except for the last session of the conference.
13:46: I was there the previous day and then Saturday morning, the very first session was Dr. Kanner. OK. But you didn't have the shirt on the previous day.
13:54: I didn't. No. Or just the last day. All right. So did you.
14:00: When did you actually encounter Dr. Kanner? I went after his session.
14:06: I went out to the fellowship hall where they have all the merchandise tables set up. And he was sitting there at his table with his merchandise.
14:12: OK. OK. So you listen to his presentation. By the way, did they say anything about the sessions being made available or was there a sign up sheet?
14:25: You could get them or anything like that. There was a sign up sheet to have to get
14:31: DVDs. I personally didn't get one because some of my friends did and I figured I could borrow theirs. OK.
14:36: I was assuming that was a DVD of the entire conference. OK. All right. Well, then that means probably that talk will be made available.
14:44: The audio will will will come out eventually. And I'd really like to hear it because I only heard last about about how long did he speak?
14:52: Do you remember? Forty five minutes, maybe. OK. So I've heard a little less than half of it.
14:58: All right. OK. And was it primarily was the the great Islamic secret the parallels with with Mormonism and Joseph Smith?
15:05: Yeah, that was the whole talk. OK. All right. Well, of course, I heard him talking about, you know, teenagers calling at three o 'clock in the morning.
15:15: I broke up with my girlfriend and his wife is not Southern. She's country and she can kill you and all that stuff.
15:23: I heard. I heard. But did you did you catch the fact that he admitted that he came to the United States in 1969?
15:30: Yes. I heard that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sort of like, isn't that what all those bloggers were saying that live in their parents' basement and don't have a life is not how he described all of us, as I recall.
15:41: Yeah. OK. All right. So you go into the fellowship hall and is there a line or do you just or is he just sitting here at the table or what?
15:50: It was more like concentric circles. There wasn't really an organized line. People were just kind of grabbing
15:56: DVDs and throwing down money. And it was a little disorganized. I was just trying to, you know, work my way up to the front of the people.
16:04: OK. And so you finally get there. And and what what do you do?
16:12: I actually didn't get to do anything before he picked me out of the crowd.
16:17: I was just standing there and I was going to ask him if I could shake his hand, thank him for coming and talking or whatever, but I didn't and I didn't actually get a chance to say anything before he called me out, said, ah, another one of my stalkers.
16:31: Aha. A stalker. OK. And was this said with with joy and happiness?
16:38: No. Sort of cynicism. Aha. And then what to the best of your recollection, what what what did he say to you?
16:50: I asked him, I said me because I wasn't I wasn't sure if he was talking to me directly. There was actually a gentleman during the session who stood up and started yelling things at him.
17:00: Really? Yeah. He stood up and Dr. Kinners was talking about I don't remember what, but he said something about some people have a problem with me.
17:11: And right after he said that, somebody interrupted him and said, I have a problem with you. You're a fraud.
17:16: If you guys don't believe me, look it up on YouTube. It was quite distracting.
17:22: So this was before the period that I heard this would have been earlier in his talk.
17:28: Very early. Yes. Very early. And what did they do with that gentleman? The security came in and escorted him out.
17:38: And Dr. Kinners said, it's OK, it's OK to have stalkers. It's how you respond to them.
17:44: Oh, OK. All right. So did he look like what did did he have any particular distinguishing characteristics?
17:52: Was he Middle Eastern, American? No, he was American, tall, dark hair, don't remember much about.
18:00: I was kind of on the other side of the room. And that's how many people do you think were in attendance? Oh, a couple hundred, at least.
18:09: A couple hundred. Yeah. So was this in the main the main auditorium? Yes. Oh, a couple hundred.
18:16: It's Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa was sort of rattle around a little bit. I mean, seriously,
18:22: I mean, how many would you estimate that that auditorium can can seat? Oh, it's pretty big, isn't it?
18:32: Yeah, it's pretty big. I mean, I've never been there. I'm not expecting to get an invitation anytime soon, either.
18:38: It was the morning session, so there weren't as many people as there were at the other session. OK. All right.
18:43: There was still a good number of people there. OK. All right. So he's already had one guy get up and say, you're a fraud and not.
18:52: And by the way, that would not certainly be the way to handle it, obviously. And so that has probably poisoned the atmosphere just a little bit once he sees you.
19:02: So what does he say once he sees you? He says, ah, another one of my stalkers. And I said, me?
19:09: Because I wasn't sure if he was talking to me, because I didn't really do anything. He said, yes, you. We don't come to your conferences.
19:15: And I said, I'm sorry, what exactly makes me a stalker? He said, your T -shirt. The people who made those
19:21: T -shirts are godless pagans. You all hate my ministry and Dr. Geisel and his Geisler and his ministry.
19:27: And I was like, I figured he was referencing Alpha and Omega Ministries and that T -shirt.
19:35: But I just thought I'd inform him. I said, my friend made me this T -shirt. And he said, your friend is a godless pagan.
19:42: And I said, I asked him to make me the T -shirt. Are you implying that I'm a godless pagan? And at that, he just kind of rolled his eyes in motion to his security guards and pointed at me.
19:52: And I said, excuse me, Dr. Kainor, have I done anything wrong? And he didn't say anything more than a security guard motioned to me and asked me, sir, can
19:59: I talk to you over here? I said, absolutely. Walked over there. And didn't ever get to talk to Dr.
20:06: Kainor again after that. Did you get an opportunity to explain to anyone there what the significance of the question actually was meant to indicate?
20:16: No. Well, the security guards seemed to have really no idea what was going on at all.
20:22: They at least seemed like they didn't even know why he was upset, because they didn't give me an explanation for it.
20:29: So I figured if I tried to explain to people, I'd explain to the people from my church who were asking me why
20:34: I'm wearing this weird T -shirt, what is Hadith, I don't know what that means. But they kind of ushered me out of there before I had an opportunity to really ask any meaningful questions.
20:47: But you weren't kicked out of the conference, you were able to attend the rest of the sessions that day?
20:52: Yes. Yeah. I was watched by security, and I had people coming asking me questions.
21:00: People from the security asking me questions. What kind of questions were they asking you? The first question they asked me was, during the session immediately following,
21:12: I was a little antsy, a little shaken up, and I didn't want to sit down, so I went and I stood up in the lobby and was listening to Dr.
21:20: Geisler from the lobby. And a gentleman came up to me, and I assume he was from security, because he was following me around most of the day.
21:27: He said, sir, is there a reason why you're standing up? And I just said, I just, a little antsy, wanted to stand, but I still wanted to listen, so I thought
21:34: I'd stand in the back. He said, okay. And I said, is that okay? And he said, yeah, that's fine. And then the head of security asked me later on, another time when
21:44: I went walking in the bookstore trying to avoid Dr. Tanner's table, I didn't want to cause any more problems than I already had.
21:52: He came up to me from the other side of the room and asked me if I was from Alpha and Omega Ministries, to which
22:00: I was kind of confused. I was like, you mean, like, do I support them? Do I like them?
22:06: Do I know who James White is? The question was kind of confusing. And so I just told him,
22:11: I said, I like James White. I listen to everything he says, but I'm not from Alpha and Omega Ministries, no.
22:19: And he said, okay, that's all I needed to know, and walked away, and that was pretty much it.
22:25: Okay. All right. Well, hey, there you go. So, the statement that I know caught you especially by surprise was that the people who made that shirt are godless pagans.
22:42: That's the direct quote. Yes. Godless pagans. Okay. All right.
22:48: Well, at least we know how this works. We've been calling for Dr.
22:55: Kanner to confess, and repent, and seek restoration. And what does he view people who do that as?
23:01: Godless pagans. At least he didn't say we were Muslims, I suppose. I guess that could have shown up eventually, but very, very interesting.
23:13: Well, I hope that ... I don't know what to say.
23:19: I was very interested in seeing what would happen if someone was brave enough to even attempt to ask the question.
23:25: It seemed obvious to me. Now, I want to confirm something here, because you mentioned this in the tweet. He specifically said, we hate his ministry, and we hate
23:35: Dr. Geisler's ministry. That's what he said? Yeah. Both them and their ministry.
23:42: Okay. All right. Them and their ministry. Okay. Yeah. So, even though your shirt didn't mention either one, they well know exactly what that question is meant to indicate, and there's no confusion on their part of what the issues actually are.
23:59: They just have absolutely no intention of ever addressing this issue very, very clearly.
24:06: All right. Hey, Colin, thank you very, very much. I feel like saying, sorry, your day might have been ruined, but actually it'll probably make it a considerably more memorable experience for you anyways, because from what
24:23: I listened to, I think you probably got a whole lot more about Islam out of almost any one of the programs we've done on the subject than you did what you're listening to anyways.
24:34: So, that'll make it a little bit more, I don't know, rememorable for you, and I very much appreciate the tweets and letting us know about what happened, and you're taking the time to call today.
24:47: Yeah. Thanks. Hey, thanks, Colin. God bless. God bless. All right. Bye -bye. Well, there you go, folks.
24:54: Colin in California asks the question, what is Hadith 2425, and how does
25:01: Ergen Kanner respond? Does he respond as a person who has reflected upon his deceptive actions where he has lied to people?
25:11: In listening to his statements, as I mentioned to Colin, and he heard it as well, the story about coming in 1979 trained in jihad from a country where, well, you know,
25:26: I will say one thing. He got the date right now. How can he not?
25:32: We've proven the exact time of his coming. But throughout the presentation, he still identified himself, first of all, as Turkish.
25:45: He's only half Turkish. His mother's Swedish. And he still pretended, when he talked about Muslims, or when he talked about the people who took over Jerusalem, he said, we.
26:01: He told a story about if you go to a market in the
26:07: Middle East, and if you look at an item and you put it down and start to walk away, he says, we will hunt you down.
26:15: And we will not let you go. And then he goes into this, oh, you must have 15, 15, 10, oh, you're stealing food out of my children's mouths and all the rest of this stuff.
26:28: And he's doing the I'm Turkish thing. He can't any longer do the when
26:35: I came here, I didn't even know a Christian thing, which used to be the central part of his presentations.
26:42: It can't be there. But he never said, I came here from Sweden. He just simply said, when
26:50: I came here, leaving the audience open to conjecture as to where he had been before.
26:58: And, of course, he doesn't mention that he was, you know, two and a half. And he grew up outside of Toledo, Ohio.
27:08: That stuff, you know, he, you know, the fact that his father was out of his life at a young time in his day of his growing up and that he grew up as just a regular kid in a regular high school, you know, that stuff that that's all gone.
27:22: But at least he's admitting, you know, the issues. But as Turretin fan pointed out, even in his presentation of Islam today,
27:33: I'm sorry, in the in listening to him today, he made some mistakes concerning the festivals, which again would be common for someone like him that only has a surface level knowledge of Islam, did not actually grow up as a practicing
27:48: Muslim. He claimed to have done all the prayers and all the rest of it. I just don't believe it. I don't believe it for a second. A person who grew up doing all the prayers until his high school years would not confuse the shahada with the beginning of Surat al -Fatiha.
28:01: I'm sorry, it just doesn't happen. And even in this lecture, he starts talking about what
28:10: Muhammad said, I'm sorry, what Jesus said in, well, what Muhammad said that Jesus said in Surah 19, and he messes it up.
28:21: And he says that Jesus said, I'm God. I mean, that I'm not God, but I've been sent by Allah and blah, blah, blah.
28:28: He doesn't even accurately represent Jesus's words in Surah Maryam.
28:35: And then when he gives the shahada, he inserts the phrase final, the word final, and Muhammad is the final prophet.
28:46: There is no word final in the shahada. And since he hadn't already given the shahada and explained its background, things like that, then, again, if you're trying to get your information from Ergen Kanner, what can
29:03: I say? It's just, if this is the best that Veritas has to offer, and it's not because J.
29:14: Smith has taught for Veritas. And I just have to wonder, what does J. Smith think about all this? I haven't asked him, maybe
29:21: I should, because it's just embarrassing. If they want to have somebody do a good presentation on this,
29:28: I'll bring J. Smith in. I mean, his command of the Quran is excellent. His knowledge of the backgrounds is excellent.
29:35: And you'll actually get accurate information. I mean, I'm just fearful for anybody at that conference to go out and start trying to talk to a
29:42: Muslim and get their heads handed to them on a platter. There's reason for being concerned about these things, folks.
29:50: I mean, Ergen Kanner thinking I'm a godless pagan, accusing me of being a godless pagan, and saying that I hate
30:00: Ergen Kanner or Norm Geisler, I expect that. That's a guilty conscience.
30:05: The man has been caught red -handed and refuses to repent. I expect that. Anybody who listens to the
30:13: Abdullah Kunda debate and compares it with what Ergen Kanner says, you can see. You can see the vast difference.
30:21: And the Muslims can see the vast difference, too. But unfortunately, the Muslims also see a bunch of evangelical
30:27: Christians defending somebody who should never be defended. And that really is the problem.
30:34: But I do have one little section to play here. And we're going to have to ride the game because the recording wasn't good.
30:41: But this should be right around where he actually admits his, you know, here's where Ergen Kanner, Ergen Kanner of February 2010,
30:55: I came to the United States in 1979 trained in jihad. And now,
31:02: Ergen Kanner in October, late October of 2011.
31:10: Persians, Shiites, Arabs, Sunnis, I'm an Anatolian Turk. And so we're a mixed breed.
31:18: We're the Mongols. And when I first came to America in 1969 and Amir was born in 1970 and was actually born in Toledo, Iowa, and when we finally settled in America and became
31:28: American citizens, I'm still a Turk. I'm still a
31:34: Turk. Born in Sweden. Of a Swedish mother. And according to Amir, the language, his native tongue is
31:47: Swedish, not English. It's certainly not Arabic. It's certainly not Arabic. It actually sounded better than I expected it to.
31:52: Because when we first played it, it was next to impossible to hear. But I cranked the, had iTunes double its amplitude.
32:01: So, anyways, 877 -753 -3341. Dividing that line via Skype.
32:06: Dividing that line via Skype. Let's get to some phone calls here. Once again, thanks to Colin.
32:12: And let's talk to Joel. Hi, Joel. Hey, Dr. White. How are you doing?
32:18: Doing good. I had a question. I am from Mobile, Alabama.
32:24: And we have the largest PCUSA church in the southeast.
32:30: And the minister there who's mentored me somewhat just converted to Roman Catholicism.
32:40: He retired early because of the whole homosexual ordination thing.
32:45: And I think the day or two after he resigned, he was going to retire.
32:52: He converted to Roman Catholicism. And I am having the opportunity, when I get off for Christmas break,
32:58: I'm up here in Louisville at a seminary. And I'm going to be able to speak to him. And I just kind of wanted to know what you think, you know, what kind of approach
33:06: I should take when I speak to him. I'm not really sure where to start. Well, you start with where he is.
33:16: And I would start by asking him, if you were troubled by the liberal direction of the
33:28: PCUSA, would you admit that the PCUSA's move into liberalism was not due to sola scriptura, it was due to ignoring sola scriptura?
33:38: Because the PCUSA's view of scripture has collapsed. It's just nonexistent anymore.
33:47: If in a conversation there is any discussion of sola scriptura, I think that's one thing you're going to have to keep at the forefront of your thinking is that very often converts will talk about sola scriptura and their inability to defend it and look at what it resulted in.
34:04: But the thing you have to keep in the forefront of your mind is the degradation of liberal
34:09: Protestantism is not due to sola scriptura. It's due to an abandonment of the highest view of scripture and sola scriptura.
34:17: And once you have an idea of where he's coming from, then of course the big question for me is, if he ever, and you would know this,
34:24: I would assume you would know this because you mentioned some level of mentorship on his part.
34:33: The primary question that I ask people is, if you once saw the absolute necessity of the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to you as your sole standing before God, the sole ground of true peace with God, how can you abandon that for the sacramental system of Rome, which specifically precludes you having peace with God and makes your relationship with God dependent upon sacramental forgiveness that cannot perfect you, and this is clearly seen in light of the reality of purgatory and purgation and satispassio after death.
35:18: There is a top ten list that someone wrote to me once and said, what are the top ten questions you would ask of a convert to Roman Catholicism?
35:28: And it's on my blog. If you go to the blog, it's item number 2229.
35:36: I think you can search by item number. I don't know. Maybe someone can tell me what the date on that one was.
35:46: Well, actually, I have a mouse and a clicker. I guess I can do that myself. Let me just pull it up for you here real quick.
35:53: The date on it, which allows you to go to the archives and pull it up fairly quickly, is a new convert asks the top ten list, and yes, the date on this is where to go.
36:07: I guess it's at the top. August 26, 2007. August 26, 2007.
36:14: And so there's a top ten list that I would look at as sort of a foundation, basically.
36:25: But a lot of it's going to depend on, you know, when you say he's PCUSA, but he left because of the homosexual issue, that means he's more conservative than that.
36:34: And so that actually is, I think, a good thing because it might give you a scriptural foundation upon which to base things.
36:44: But for me, the big question I have of anybody who had access to the Reformed tradition would be, hey, why?
36:53: How can you abandon the imputed righteousness of Christ as your soul standing before God, the peace that comes from that, the recognition of the finished work of Christ for the treadmill of the sacramental system of Rome?
37:08: Yes, sir. Yeah, he did some open forum thing, and it wasn't to his church.
37:14: It was in St. Ignatius, the Catholic church from my area. And it was basically just Catholics asking him questions, and he talked about his wife has a severe form of Alzheimer's, and he's basically lost his church, losing his wife, and losing his nomination.
37:30: And everything he talked about was emotional, and when he was in the hospital, he would make
37:35: Gregorian chants and all this stuff, and it was really weird. And he would make these statements that,
37:41: I mean, you've refuted 33 ,000 nomination things, you know, Christ down in one church.
37:47: And he also said that Roman Catholics are the only people that took the Bible literally, and it really bothered me that, yeah, exactly, that kind of stuff would come out of his mouth.
37:56: Well, I just wonder who he's talking to, because, I mean, if he went up to Boston College and met with the
38:02: Jesuits up there, he'd run screaming off the campus because they make the
38:08: PCUSA look like a bunch of raving fundamentalists. So, I mean, if he really thinks that, then whoever he's been talking to, he's got the newlywed view of Rome, and he better keep his eyes closed, or he's going to discover that what he's actually facing there is not what he expected at all.
38:32: Yes, sir. Well, your ministry has been most helpful in this aspect of my life, witnessing people close to me.
38:39: So thank you for that, and I appreciate your help. You have a good day. Okay, well, thank you very much, Joel, and we'll definitely pray for your encounter there, because I know it's difficult to talk to someone who has been influential in your life and then to see something like this happen.
38:52: So I know what you're going through, and be faithful and trust the spirit and the word. Yes, sir,
38:58: I appreciate it. You have a good day. Thank you, sir. 877 -753 -3341 is the number that Peter called.
39:04: Hi, Peter. Hey, how are you doing? Doing good. Yeah, I got a question. I want to study the Koran more.
39:10: I was wondering if you could recommend, like, a Kindle version of it with, like, a table of contents that's easy to get through. Okay.
39:17: Here's what I say whenever anybody asks that question. Obviously, the easiest ones you're going to be able to get hold of are
39:26: Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Piktal's translations, and those will be accepted by Muslims, and you can get them in editions that have some type of footnotes and things like that, which, of course, are going to give you a spin on things.
39:42: Two things to remember. You need to go to my blog and search on the word chronological. It will bring up a table.
39:49: It's not a pretty table, but it's a functional table, and I would print it out and stick it in front of your Koran, and it gives you a best guess chronological order of the surahs because the surahs are arranged by size, not by chronology, and, therefore, if you read it straight through, you're going to be bouncing back and forth, back and forth between two very different periods of life in Muhammad's experience.
40:14: The first 12 years in Mecca between 610 and 622. Then after the Hijra, he's in Medina, and the character of the revelations changes, and it's very confusing just to read the
40:25: Koran from beginning to end because you're bouncing back and forth. Even using that, they're still going to be bouncing because not all the surahs are from one particular time period.
40:35: So there actually is available on Kindle, and maybe
40:41: Ralph in channel can remind me of the specific name of the author, but there is a book called A Journey Through the
40:47: Koran that I know I got on Kindle that gives you extensive background material drawn from the
40:56: Hadith that even within each of the surahs.
41:03: So you'll have a few verses that were given at a particular time. It'll give you the background information of that.
41:10: Emrek, thank you. Okay, Emrek is the guy.
41:16: So that would be good for that. Now as to a translation, my favorite translation of the
41:25: Koran right now anyways is the Sahih International, S -A -H -I -H,
41:31: Sahih International. I am uncertain as to whether that's on Kindle, but I know it's available online and hence can be
41:39: PDFed and put on your Kindle. So, you know, that's another option because I have it.
41:46: I know that I have recorded it. I have it in MP3. So I'm not sure if it's on Kindle, but I know it's available in PDF via Google.
41:58: So it's S -A -H -I -H, Sahih International. That's going to be the base translation I'm using in my book. I'll make reference to it.
42:04: Is it like a green paperback? Yep, uh -huh. Okay. Yep, yep.
42:11: So those would be my recommendations there. Is there anything like Quran systematic theology or something?
42:17: No, that's the problem. There are what you're looking for there.
42:22: If you want to get a tafsir, which is a commentary on the Quran, probably, again,
42:31: I know that Ibn Kathir, K -A -T -H -I -R, Ibn Kathir is available, I know, in PDF.
42:38: I'm not sure if it's available in Kindle or not, but I know it's available in PDF, and anything that's available in PDF can be loaded on the
42:43: Kindle. That's going to be as close as you're going to get. And then, of course, there are modern tafsirs as well.
42:51: What's that commentary called? I'm sorry? What's the name of that commentary by Kathir?
42:59: I think it's just Tafsir Quran. I don't remember a specific name for it.
43:05: Okay. But I would just search on I -B -N space K -A -T -H -I -R, and you might be able to pull it up there.
43:14: Okay? Okay. Is there any other scriptures that are like holy scriptures, supposedly, besides like Book of Mormon, and there are other books?
43:23: For the Mormons? No, like as far as religious scriptures, is it pretty much just Islam and…
43:29: Well, no, you've got all sorts of other world scriptures. You've got the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita, but those are primarily
43:38: Eastern religions and very difficult to even begin to understand.
43:47: What version of Kindle do you have? I'm trying to pick one here. I've got a
43:53: Kindle 3. Yeah, Kindle 3. Is it called Kindle Touch now? They've just come out with a bunch of new ones, and I'm afraid the
44:03: Kindle Fire and stuff like that, I'm afraid I don't know. I haven't upgraded or anything like that. I have what was available right before the new changes that took place about two weeks ago.
44:14: And can you purchase different voices on that, or is it just the one it comes with? It has a male voice and a female voice. Okay.
44:20: And you can just listen to that on your Kindle, right? You don't have to transfer it to anything else? No, uh -uh. You can listen to it on the
44:25: Kindle, yeah. I mean, you always need to look at any book you purchase, and it'll have a little checkbox that'll say, Voice Activated or Speech Enabled, I think is what it's called.
44:35: And because some folks, they're very rare, but there are some books that I've purchased on Kindle and then realized they had disabled the ability for the
44:43: Kindle to actually read it to you because they are also marketing a voice version, a recorded version.
44:49: So you do have to watch for that, but it's pretty rare. Okay. So the main reason you put it on your bipod is just so you could have it on a smaller device.
44:56: Is that the only reason? I don't want to carry my Kindle while I'm riding a bike through the desert. Oh, okay. So it's a little bit large.
45:04: All right. Thanks a lot, Jay. You're welcome. God bless. Bye -bye. Bye. All right, 877 -753 -3341.
45:10: Let's talk to Bill down in Dallas. Hi, Bill. Hey, how are you doing? Doing good.
45:16: Okay. Are you aware of a book called Whosoever Will? A Biblical Theological Critique of Five -Point
45:23: Calvinism edited by Allen and Lemke? Uh -huh. Oh, of course. Those are the papers presented at the
45:29: John 316 Conference in 2010, as I recall. Okay.
45:35: I just became aware of it today, and I read about four chapters at lunch and nearly lost lunch.
45:42: But anyway. Well, listening to the presentation of the papers was even worse. This was the
45:48: John 316 Conference, and I believe... When was the
45:54: John 316 Conference? If someone in the channel can tell me when the
46:00: John 316 Conference was, I know I was... I think it was in February of 2010 or November of 2008, because I was in London when it happened.
46:12: That's all I know, is that I was in London when it happened. And that's where the professor from Dallas, from Southern...
46:18: I'm sorry, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, identified me as a hyper -Calvinist.
46:26: As a hyper -Calvinist. Right. I wondered if you knew about that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's been refuted.
46:32: Even the person who wrote the definition he used, Phil Johnson, has refuted him. But despite that, despite the inaccuracy of that, and the lengthy period of time,
46:43: November of 2008, so it didn't come out until 2010, so it took a year and a half, despite the fact that that particular individual was refuted soundly, he still put it in the book.
46:55: He could have pulled it, he could have made a correction, refused to do so. So, it's just another example of how the folks on that side of that particular issue just, you know, any argument's a good argument, whether it's a truthful argument or not, sadly.
47:11: Well... Yeah. So, if you go back to the Dividing Lines post, you know, somewhere around mid -November of 2008, and to my
47:21: YouTube page, you will see that I will play clips from the John 316 conference, and will refute.
47:28: In fact, on the Dividing Line, I played entire sections of those presentations, including the one where I was lied about and misidentified as a hyper -Calvinist.
47:38: Oh. And I refuted all that material at that time. All right, well, I'll check that out. It'll make you feel better, too.
47:45: Really, it will. Well, I listen to about 90 % of your shows, you know, on the
47:50: Dividing Line, you know, when I get a chance to, and I was like, well, I don't remember you saying anything about this, and I've got a really good memory here, so...
47:57: Yeah, November of 2008. Now, is there a way, because we have the way back stream, is there a way to request those particular ones?
48:06: I'm trying to remember. I'm looking out there, and I'm waiting for Rich to come running across the office and tell me.
48:14: And is he? No, he's not? Oh, bummer. Okay. I think there's a way to request some of those programs, but if you just go back in the archives on the blog to November of 2008, and then look at that, you'll be able to see which ones to grab.
48:29: And we played entire segments of the audio, and then refuted it. All right.
48:34: Well, there's two other little things that just bother me on it that are just about the issue, and I'm, you know, I'm sort of...
48:40: I'm 99 % in your camp, I guess. I just have a few things still, you know, a little loose.
48:46: But one of them is that the book talks early on about the
48:52: Paige Patterson chapter and the Jerry Vines chapter, and they're talking about Calvinist and the SBC, and this and that.
48:59: But then they sort of, and this article has kind of popped up online too, they come up with about how, in one of the chapters on the
49:07: Atonement, about how Calvinists are deceptive to get church pulpits when being interviewed by non -Calvinist churches.
49:15: I mean, so you're basically calling these people liars right out of the chute, and at the same time trying to advocate our love and understanding and all that stuff.
49:26: Well, that is a common complaint. I think it goes both directions. The complaint is that Calvinists are trying to hide their doctrinal commitments, and then once they get hired, then they cause all these problems in churches.
49:41: I think the problem is, well, first of all, part of the problem is that many in the
49:46: Southern Baptist Convention have an unbiblical ecclesiology to begin with. I don't think the pastor is a quote -unquote hireling anyways.
49:53: You should have a plurality of elders, and the elders should be responsible for that thing. But the reality is that many pulpit search committees, if you wish to call them that, may hear the man clearly indicating what his background is and what his predilection is and what his perspectives are, but they don't understand it until they start hearing sermons that make practical applications.
50:18: You could sit there and say, yeah, I follow the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, and that should tell you right there, but if they don't take the time to look that up, then they feign some type of shock when the guy is consistent with what he told them his background was and his commitments were.
50:41: So I understand they're feeling like we're trying to sneak in, but the reality is that we're not.
50:47: I think you'll probably find some good articles on that specific subject at the
50:53: Founders Conference website, because they deal with that issue a lot. All right.
50:59: And along the same lines, the same issue. This has always gotten me, particularly with some of the laypeople.
51:04: And just in the interest of full disclosure, I had this background for about 30 years, and the laypeople really are heavily
51:13: Pelagian, but they don't know it. Yes, oh yes. And I was, too.
51:18: I had to cope with that. But, for example, I had a friend who stayed on a
51:23: Facebook post recently that quoted 1 John 2, too, and I think 1 Timothy 4, something like that.
51:32: And I guess what I'm always amused by, and this is where my seminary training comes out, too, I'm always amused by the assumption that, well, what we'll do is we'll throw this quote out there as if nobody has ever talked about it in 2 ,000 years.
51:47: Well, the reason that they can get away with that, the reason that they can proof text and not even pretend to interact with the volumes that have been written by Reformed exegetes down through history is because the people they're talking to, for most of them, church history begins with Billy Graham.
52:07: So they don't know about who John Owen was, and they don't know who B .B. Warfield was, and they don't know who
52:14: Jonathan Edwards was. They may have heard of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and that Jonathan Edwards must have been a freak show or something.
52:21: But they can do this, and they can get away with it, because of the fact that they're dealing with people who don't know church history, and they don't know that this is a discussion that has been going on for a very, very, very, very, very long time.
52:39: And one side has pummeled the other for a very, very, very, very, very long time, biblically speaking.
52:46: But since people don't know their history, they don't know that. And they, therefore, get away with it.
52:53: So in my perspective, that's the reason that that happens. Okay? Yeah, that's fine.
53:00: Well, thank you much. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of it, since I didn't remember you talking about it, and I just came across it today.
53:08: Well, to be honest with you, the main reason we haven't talked about it past that time period is because even people in that camp were embarrassed by the quality of what was produced.
53:21: Now, there have been people, by the way, who have tried to arrange a debate at Southwestern between myself and my false accuser.
53:29: And, of course, he is not in any way, shape, or form interested. I would be happy to defend Calvinism on the campus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
53:37: But the people on that side, they want a monologue. They don't want a dialogue. It's like Roger Olson and his new book against Calvinism.
53:46: He won't even return an email. They do not want dialogue with people who really believe what
53:51: I believe. They just want to lecture on it. And so that's how it works. Hey, Bill, thanks for your call today.
53:57: Okay, quick, one more thing. Debate. You mentioned debate. Dan Wallace is going to be doing another debate with Airmen in February on the campus of UNC Chapel Hill.
54:06: That's what Dan told me. Oh, okay. I didn't know if you'd heard that either. Well, Dan and I do communicate fairly regularly on those issues.
54:15: Okay. Well, take care. Thanks, Bill. All right. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. Hey, folks,
54:21: I'll tell you what. I'm going to continue going. We'll make this a jumbo as long as the phone calls make it a jumbo.
54:28: So 8 -7, we've got three more phone calls, and we've got one line open. And, you know, I feel sort of badly for Rich.
54:35: Rich was unceremoniously banished to doing
54:40: Skype calls today. And I'm not going to say who unceremoniously banished him. I'm not even going to look at the person who unceremoniously banished him.
54:48: But he was unceremoniously banished to doing Skype calls today. And no one has called on Skype.
54:57: And so I'm concerned that Rich might be taking this personally. And so dividing .line
55:04: is the ID at Skype. Dividing .line. And you will talk to someone who will be very happy to hear you.
55:15: Right now, he sort of feels a little bit banished. You know, he's been cast out into outer darkness, and we feel badly for him.
55:25: And so dividing .line via Skype and 877 -753 -3341.
55:31: So that means we'll go for another, if the phone calls require it, we'll go for another 35 minutes.
55:37: But if they don't, once the board is clear, then we'll just wrap things up.
55:45: Because that's just the way it is. So let's look at who's been on line the longest here.
55:52: And let's talk with Jesus. Hello, Jesus. How are you doing, Dr. White? Doing good.
55:57: Can you hear me? Yes, sir. Yeah, I just wanted to comment on the whole Irving Kenner thing that happened over the weekend.
56:04: I actually am a former Calvary Chapelite. You are a member of an interesting group, an interesting family.
56:18: Oh, definitely, definitely. I actually bought your shirt, the Hadith 2425.
56:25: Yes, yes, with Angel's wonderful artwork on it. Yeah, it's really good. I was already planning on going and everything, but then
56:33: I started thinking, is this more my cage -states Calvinism coming out, wanting to come out?
56:39: You know what, I'll be honest with you, this doesn't have anything to do with Calvinism. I mean, it really, really doesn't. I mean, I would think,
56:45: I would actually think that the people at that conference who are professing to be concerned about apologetics would be the first ones to be asking these questions of Norman Geisser and Irving Kenner.
56:58: Yeah. So I don't think it has anything to do with Calvinism. I think an Arminian can wear that shirt just fine because he's asking the exact same question.
57:08: How can we stand up here and talk about truth? How can we stand up here and talk about discernment and equal standards and stuff like that when the man standing in front of us has done what he's done?
57:24: I don't pretend to understand it, but evidently some people can get away with it.
57:30: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it has something to do a little bit tied with what you were talking to a former caller about how unfortunately a lot of people are not aware of church history prior to Billy Graham.
57:44: Oh, yeah. And so whenever a good person who is a good communicator, a good orator, comes along and tells them all kinds of things, then they're going to quickly embrace them.
57:55: And that's one of the things that I noticed on the video because actually instead of going there,
58:00: I watched it online. And like the caller had told you earlier, the one who actually did go, there was a gentleman there who did interrupt the whole message that Cantor was giving.
58:15: Right. And as soon as security, I guess, came in and took the gentleman away,
58:21: I was just amazed as to how Cantor's ability to quickly assess a situation and bring everyone to a sense of calm because of the way he's able to almost, for lack of a better word, to manipulate through his words and through his demeanor.
58:40: And then in turn, the people think, okay, well, I'm still on Cantor's side, I'm still on his side, and whatever he says goes.
58:48: And that's just very unfortunate. But I was going to tell you, too, I did record it also via my phone, and I converted it to an
58:57: MP3, so maybe later on I can get an email that I can get it to you.
59:03: Oh, please. Yeah, I'll tell you what, use the contact page at the website, and Rich will get that.
59:12: And just let him know I called the DL, and I need a way to get the full recording to James because I would like to listen to all of it, especially its representation of Mormonism.
59:26: Because he may claim to have the expertise on Islam, and I question that.
59:33: To be perfectly honest with you, I think I've done far more reading in Islamic sources than he has. But certainly when it comes to Mormonism, not even close.
59:41: So I would like to hear the accuracy of what he's stating. Right, okay.
59:46: Yeah, it'll be interesting for you, because even at the end, when he finished his whole sermon, then one of the other gentlemen from Veritas Seminary came up to pray for him, and they just made a joke as to how they're going to do a commercial now saying that if you want to be persecuted, if you want to have stalkers, come to Veritas Seminary.
01:00:09: Well, first you have to lie through your teeth for about nine years and get caught at it, then you can get stalkers, yeah.
01:00:18: It's a longer process than it would actually like anyone to know. Yeah, exactly.
01:00:24: That's sad, especially given the name of the seminary. It's just such a contradiction that it's sort of sad.
01:00:36: Hold on just a second, Jesus. Let me fast forward. I'd like folks to hear how
01:00:42: Ergen Kanner finished his sermon. Did you find it odd?
01:00:49: Do you remember how he finished? The whole sermon? Do you remember how he finished?
01:00:55: I'm not sure if you'll be able to hear it, but ready to crank it in there, Probie. Here's the last 30 seconds of Ergen Kanner's sermon.
01:01:06: Please remember this. Salvation is eternal, but stupid is forever.
01:01:18: But I'm here to learn. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Salvation is eternal, but stupid is forever.
01:01:30: I'm sorry. I've never thought to end a sermon that way. He's a tremendous entertainer.
01:01:37: I mean, his comedic timing is matchless. He's very, very good.
01:01:45: But that's... anyway. Yeah, I mean, sometimes I'll check out his Twitter feeds, and yeah, some of those things he posts are really funny.
01:01:53: Oh yeah, no question about it. I mean, and that's how he's gotten away with it, is he's the type of guy you'd like to, you know, watch a football game with.
01:02:03: Or, you know what Ergen Kanner would be really good at? Mystery Science 3K.
01:02:12: Yeah, can you imagine his silhouette down the bottom corner during some of those horrible...
01:02:19: Yeah, me and my son Josh. I think they would be a tremendous team doing that kind of thing.
01:02:25: But I don't want to be trained by the little robots from Mystery 3K or whatever it was on how to witness to Muslims.
01:02:32: You know, I just see a fundamental contradiction there, you know. So, anyways, hey
01:02:37: Jesus, thanks for your comments. I appreciate it, and I look forward to... Yes, go ahead. Did you see the challenge that he got from an actual
01:02:44: Muslim? Yes, Adnan Rashid. Oh, okay. I was just wondering if you saw that.
01:02:50: Are you talking about Adnan Rashid? Yes, from fakexmuslim .com.
01:02:55: Yeah, I thought about even posting it, but... Because remember, I've actually, unlike Ergen Kanner, I've actually debated
01:03:03: Adnan Rashid live in London and on the Unbelievable Radio program. And so I know
01:03:10: Adnan, and I chuckled a little bit when I saw his challenge to Ergen Kanner because,
01:03:18: A, I know the guy, and B, if Adnan knows, and he does know, the history and all the documentation demonstrating that Kanner is not what he claims to be, why would he make, in the name of increasing the understanding between the great
01:03:41: Abrahamic faiths, why would he challenge him to a debate? I mean, seriously, if he knows that he's a fraud, then why is he challenging him to a debate?
01:03:50: I thought, come on, Adnan, come clean. You want to debate this guy because you want to expose that he's never been a
01:03:56: Muslim, and you want to start talking Arabic to him and watch him drool and stuff like that.
01:04:02: It ain't going to happen. He's not even going to acknowledge that you exist. But I can guarantee you,
01:04:09: Ergen Kanner knows and has watched that video. I can guarantee you that. No question about it. No question about it.
01:04:15: He knows, and that's how he avoids stepping on the landmines. It's what a sad life, because,
01:04:21: I mean, during the height of the controversy, I had people contacting me from Liberty, and I knew all his graduate assistants, all his
01:04:28: GAs, their life during that time period was monitoring everything that appeared on my blog,
01:04:34: Turretinfan's blog, Jason's blog, and what went on in the dividing line. I mean, that was their life.
01:04:40: What a great educational experience that was, you know? But it's just sad.
01:04:46: Don't they realize what it means that they're doing the things they're doing? I don't understand it. I really don't. Anyways, hey, thanks,
01:04:52: Jesus. Well, thank you very much, James. Thanks for calling. I'll try to email that MP3 for you. Okay, I appreciate it.
01:04:58: Thank you. Bye -bye. All right, great calls today. What's with poor
01:05:04: Rich? Dividing .line via Skype. Did he fall asleep in there? Is that what's going on?
01:05:09: Oh, okay, all right. Someone was just checking on him, and he actually fell asleep in the other room. Probably out of sadness. He probably wept himself to sleep.
01:05:16: That's the sad part about it. 877 -753 -3341. Still got 25 minutes, two phone lines open, and dividing .line
01:05:26: on Skype. And so we're going to talk to... Oh, great. Oh, great.
01:05:33: Hi, Johnny. How you doing, James? Here we go again.
01:05:40: The man who likes to call in with questions that could only possibly be meaningful if I had a week to look everything up. But he's going to throw it out there anyways.
01:05:47: So, yeah, you go ahead. I can't even read everything. What evidence is there for the
01:05:53: Emanuensis variable? What? Yeah, yeah. But actually, I was going to say, should
01:05:58: I call back on Skype so we can wake up Rich? That might work. That might work.
01:06:04: Maybe somebody will call in. But anyways, what is the Emanuensis variable?
01:06:10: What are you talking about? Okay, well, a few months ago, maybe two or three months ago,
01:06:17: I was listening to a show on the unbelievable radio program, and it featured
01:06:23: Daryl Bach. And Bart Ehrman. And they were talking about his book, Forged. And specifically, one of the issues that came up was the issue of the
01:06:31: Greek between Peter's first and second epistles, saying that the
01:06:37: Greek in 1 Peter is extremely complicated to someone that had a very educated literary style, and that 2
01:06:45: Peter is very different, and it couldn't have been written by the same person, et cetera, et cetera. The argument that Daryl Bach was making was that, and I've read this myself, is that it's very possible or very probable that Peter had used an
01:06:59: Emanuensis someone who actually, as a secretary or a scribe, to write down, as he dictated things to him.
01:07:06: Yeah, and ironically, I would think that Ehrman would have a hard time arguing against that simply because, from his own perspective,
01:07:16: Peter would be forced to do that. I mean, that was not an uncommon thing to do, and in Peter's situation, it would make perfect sense.
01:07:25: I mean, the apostle, why would the apostle be doing the writing? That doesn't make any sense.
01:07:31: So I was surprised when, because I listened to the same program you did, and I was surprised that Ehrman even dismissed that,
01:07:41: I think, rather obvious reality. Well, because he seems to be arguing that, based on the research of that time, you don't have people writing actual epistles, you know, in Greek, you know, in the region that Peter was writing for.
01:07:58: For example, I remember when he was talking about whether or not Peter knew Greek, he said, well, obviously he was a fisherman when he was doing commerce and selling, you know, doing his business, and he said, well, he hired an interpreter, and I kind of found it strange.
01:08:11: So Peter will hire an interpreter, but he won't hire a guy who's right uptown. Yeah, well, see,
01:08:16: Ehrman is very, very inconsistent at that point in the conclusions that he will give his great approbation to, and that is, when you say, well, there's no evidence of that, well, again, how many epistles do we have from that time period and that time, that area?
01:08:38: He doesn't even know where Peter was. I mean, the reality is that these epistles have been preserved for us, whereas the vast majority of what was written in that day has not been preserved for us.
01:08:51: So to try to put the New Testament documents, there's a reason why the New Testament documents have been preserved, to try to put them on the same basis as the secular documents of the time is just ridiculous, because somebody writing just an epistle on some other subject, the reason for the maintaining of that and the copying of that and the transmission of that over time would be next to nothing in comparison to what you have for the
01:09:16: New Testament. And so it just seems to me that he's ignoring the reality of the
01:09:22: New Testament documents at that point to come to that conclusion. Right. So that was actually my first instinct, to think that, well,
01:09:30: I think that being that we have very little documentation from the first century compared to other centuries, you know,
01:09:37: Middle Ages, etc., to actually ask for something that we barely have much information on.
01:09:43: But I was kind of wondering if there was, but you're saying that since there's very little information, even if there wasn't any evidence that there were
01:09:53: Emanuensis, because Berman was denying that variable. He says, I have all these books that say that there's an
01:10:00: Emanuensis variable, but they never present any evidence. Well, one of the two letters specifically mentions the man's name.
01:10:09: So he just dismisses that as saying, oh, I don't think that was Emanuensis. Why? Why does he get to just go, oh,
01:10:17: I just don't think that was the scribe? Well, that's been the natural reading of that text all along.
01:10:22: When did that become the unnatural reading of that text? I see absolutely no reason for that whatsoever.
01:10:29: There is no question that the two books have very, very different styles. And he's just refusing to allow for any possibility that the same person could be behind both, especially in light of 2
01:10:43: Peter's relationship to Jude. The idea that the apostles could have gotten together and had the same concerns and things like that.
01:10:53: No, no, no, no. You're not allowed to have any of that kind of stuff. Look, and that's why I think, you know,
01:10:59: Darryl Bach did a good job, but I still think that he needs to be challenged. I think Ehrman needs to be challenged on something else.
01:11:06: The man's an apostate, and he's making money off of apostasy. And he wants to be looked at as being just the most unfettered, completely unbiased person on the planet.
01:11:19: I'm sorry. He is not in any way, shape, or form. And people need to have the guts to stand up and say, this man is extremely biased.
01:11:28: And that's all there is to it. You know what? It does kind of strike me, because I remember, if my memory serves me right, when you debated
01:11:35: Shabir Ali at Biola back in 06, if I remember right, Shabir Ali referred to Bart Ehrman as an objective
01:11:42: Christian scholar, which really puzzled me that he would call him objective, for one, but to call him a
01:11:49: Christian was to me very strange. I don't remember the specific terminology he used, but yeah, there is a tendency on the part of Muslims to refer to him as a
01:11:57: Christian scholar when he's anything but. Well, I have one quick question for you.
01:12:03: One is, because I've downloaded several of your Kindle books, but I still haven't seen them.
01:12:10: I'm waiting for you to get the King James Only controversy on Kindle. Do you know when that may happen? I have no earthly idea.
01:12:16: I sort of doubt that that'll go Kindle simply because of the original languages. Really?
01:12:23: I assume so. I mean... They've got, like, a
01:12:28: D .C. Parker's book on Kindle, and that's why I figured your King James Only controversy, you know...
01:12:34: I have nothing to do with what is done via Kindle.
01:12:41: That's not a part of my area. That's totally Bethany House. You have to contact
01:12:46: Bethany House. They're the copyright holders. And say, hey,
01:12:52: I'd like to have this in that fashion because I'm just a lowly old author.
01:13:01: All right, well, thank you very much, James, and I'll continue listening. Okay, thanks. Thanks, Johnny.
01:13:07: All right, bye -bye. Bye -bye. All right, we're going to go Skype here and talk to Rasmus in Denmark.
01:13:13: Hi, Rasmus. Hello. How are you? Am I... Is my echo too bad in here?
01:13:20: No, it's not. There are a lot of acoustics in this room. Yeah, no, it's not too bad. Okay. I come from a
01:13:28: Pentecostal background. I've known the Lord since I was 15 years old, and this September I just turned 20.
01:13:35: And I thought, I don't know a lot about the reform paper. I just got introduced to it by your program, actually.
01:13:42: I've been listening since January of 2011, and I really appreciate your show.
01:13:50: I've gotten into a lot of topics that I didn't know about before, like textual criticism and exegesis and stuff like that.
01:13:58: And I'd never even heard of those terms before, actually, before I started watching your
01:14:04: YouTube channel, and then I went on from listening to The Dividing Line, you know? Uh -huh. But specifically,
01:14:11: I would like to ask you, because of my Pentecostal background, there's a lot of emphasis...
01:14:18: I'm sure you know this already, but there's a lot of emphasis in Pentecostalism on signs and wonders. Uh -huh. Can you hear me?
01:14:28: Yes, I can hear you. It sort of broke up there for a second, but the last thing I heard was an emphasis on signs and wonders.
01:14:34: Yeah, there's specifically an emphasis on healing, at least within the
01:14:41: Pentecostal church I used to go to, actually. And I just wanted to understand this topic from a reform perspective, and there
01:14:53: I would go to... I'm just wondering what your take is on John 14, 12, when it says that those who believe in Jesus will do the same works that He does, even greater, because He goes to the
01:15:05: Father. And I'm just wondering, because some people I've heard say that this has stopped with the apostles, this continues on to those other people who believed down through the centuries, and I'm just wondering what your take is on that, personally.
01:15:20: Well, the fact that Jesus says, because I go to the Father in John 14, is intimately connected with the coming of the
01:15:26: Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit's indwelling believers. The question is, what does the
01:15:31: Holy Spirit lead us to do? Does the Holy Spirit lead us to what I have seen as the excesses of the
01:15:38: Charismatic and Pentecostal movements, an emphasis upon speaking in tongues, and raising people from the dead, and things like that?
01:15:47: Or is the greater thing, the building of the church, the conversion of the nations, the fact that the gospel has gone to the end of the world, and the changing of hearts and minds, which is a much greater miracle than anything else we could possibly think of, a spiritual resurrection.
01:16:08: Obviously, I think when we look at how Paul instructed the church to behave and what to be focused upon in the ministry of the
01:16:21: Word, the proclamation of the Word, the things that we see going on in many Pentecostal churches is not the in -depth proclamation of the
01:16:31: Word. It's not a disciplined lifestyle. It very frequently is something that is very emotional.
01:16:38: You get up for Sunday, you get your batteries charged, and then you start going back down, and then maybe there's a midweek service, sort of kicks you back up a little bit, and then it's this rollercoaster ride, rather than a consistent, ongoing, disciplined life of godliness.
01:16:57: And I know a lot of Pentecostalism has gotten into a great deal of legalism because there's an emphasis upon holiness, but when that holiness is based upon emotional experience rather than upon an understanding of how we're supposed to live and why we're supposed to live that way that's based upon growing in the grace and knowledge of the
01:17:20: Lord Jesus Christ and the knowledge of His Word, that has to be constantly propped up, and it very frequently leads to the legalism that you see in a lot of...
01:17:30: Well, I saw an example of legalism in a form of Pentecostalism just recently where there was a man who would not so much as roll up his sleeves because he considers that to be pornography.
01:17:44: If you roll up your sleeves, if you show the skin of your arm, that's pornography. And I'm just like, wow,
01:17:49: I'm glad you don't live in Phoenix, that's all I can say. You'd be in big trouble. It might work in Denmark, and Denmark is probably good, but in Phoenix that would be a real problem.
01:18:00: But anyways, I see those connections, and so normally the question you're asking has to do with specific sign gifts in regards to speaking in tongues and the miracles the prophets were doing, which are normally understood as having been a part of the demonstration of the apostolic authority that leads to the
01:18:22: New Testament. But that's a different issue than all of the gifts. There are some people who are cessationists who really basically believe that all gifts have disappeared.
01:18:31: I mean, I thought I was a cessationist until I discovered that there are people who don't even believe that, for example,
01:18:37: God would gift men for the eldership or give the gift of discernment or things like that.
01:18:44: I'm like, wow, that's pretty extreme. I would certainly make a differentiation between the excesses, between sign gifts and then the other gifts.
01:18:59: And we do have one of the few
01:19:05: Pentecostals in channel that's going, hey, hey, I'm Reformed, stop picking on me. Hey, hey, wait a minute, you're throwing a few bombs a little bit close to me here.
01:19:13: I know that there are exceptions. I'm obviously speaking in the general here because you asked the question in the general.
01:19:22: Well, I believe that there should be a healthy balance between, you know, a life of godliness is the most important thing, you know.
01:19:31: But that doesn't, I firmly agree with you there, but I don't think that means that we should abandon the, you know, let me formulate it this way.
01:19:43: There's a difference between a charismatic and a charismaniac. Okay.
01:19:48: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Because, for instance, you know, being a part of Pentecostalism myself is especially unique in my situation,
01:20:05: I think, because I have cerebral palsy. Okay. And so for a while, especially when
01:20:13: I had just gotten saved and encountered the Lord, the people in my church had a very strong emphasis on me being healed of my cerebral palsy.
01:20:27: And that emotion that comes with that, so that can easily be over -emphasized,
01:20:32: I think. You know? Yeah, yeah. I believe personally that the spiritual gifts should be a part of the ministry, but they shouldn't be over -emphasized, you know, to the point where you see those revivals of people roaring on the floor and all that crazy stuff that they do.
01:20:54: You know? So, you know, there should be a healthy balance there,
01:21:00: I believe. Yeah. Well, Rasmus, you know, there's a lot of books that have been written on these issues.
01:21:07: I know that, you know, going back to B .B. Warfield's discussion of the subject back at the turn of the last century, that you might find interesting.
01:21:18: It's not one of my primary areas of focus, to be perfectly honest with you. But, you know, you asked for my perspective, and that's certainly where I think most
01:21:28: Reformed folks would be coming from, is the role of the Spirit is to point to Jesus and to take of his things, make them known, glorify
01:21:38: Christ, and to make the Word of God to come alive in our hearts and to give us understanding of what is contained therein.
01:21:47: And as he is the author of those words, then he utilizes those words that have been given to us.
01:21:53: And I am very concerned when I see revelations going on where people say, thus says the
01:22:00: Lord, and things like this. I'm very, very concerned about what that means and what that would mean to the finished work of the canon of Scripture.
01:22:13: And can they make and consistently make a functional differentiation between what the
01:22:18: Lord allegedly is revealing and what's found in Scripture? How can that have an equal authority or a higher authority?
01:22:25: I think there's a lot of questions along those lines that we need to be thinking about, and they're pretty important ones.
01:22:32: Okay? Yeah. All right. Thank you, Rasmus, and God bless you there in Denmark. God bless you, too.
01:22:38: Stay warm. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. Thank you very much.
01:22:45: I do have one question that was sent in. I'll go ahead and we'll do this one, and then we will wrap things up for the program today.
01:22:57: A person writes in and says, Something regarding Bible translation has come to my attention that worries me, and I know if there is a good answer, you'll have it.
01:23:04: Well, I hope so. The 2011 NIV, which, interestingly enough, I do not have, has the following translation of Matthew 27 -17.
01:23:12: So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, Which one do you want me to release to you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the
01:23:17: Messiah? Is there some cultural or custom issue that would cause the NIV translators to use the term Jesus Barabbas?
01:23:23: Some Muslims are using this to attempt proof that our Savior wasn't really crucified, but Barabbas was.
01:23:29: I sent Zonderman an email to inquire about this, but they replied by basically blowing me off and sending me to their site in an attempt to sell me a new
01:23:35: Bible. They ignored my question, can you help? Yeah, I think
01:23:41: I can. There is a textual variant.
01:23:48: Well, I'll just give you the expert's word here, and then I'll try to simplify it. Metzger says, The reading preserved today in several
01:23:55: Greek manuscripts and early versions was known to Origen, this is Jesus Barabbas.
01:24:00: The reading preserved today in several Greek manuscripts and early versions was known to Origen, who declares in his commentary on passage in many copies,
01:24:07: It is not stated that Barabbas was also called Jesus, and perhaps the omission is right. Origen discloses in what follows his reason for disapproving of the reading
01:24:15: Jesus Barabbas. It cannot be right, he implies, because in the whole range of the Scriptures, we know that no one who is a sinner is called
01:24:22: Jesus, which is not really the best way to do textual criticism. In a 10th century unsealed manuscript, and in about 20 minuscule manuscripts, a marginal comment states in many ancient copies, which
01:24:32: I have met with, I found Barabbas himself likewise called Jesus. That is the question of Pilate stood there as follows, and then you have the
01:24:40: Greek given there, and it's Jesus the
01:24:47: Barabbas, or Jesus the one called the Christ, which is what the NIV is following. For apparently the paternal name of the robber was
01:24:54: Barabbas, which is interpreted son of the teacher. This scholium, which is usually assigned in the manuscripts either to Anastasius, Bishop of Antioch, perhaps, latter part of the 6th century, or to Chrysostom, is in one manuscript attributed to Origen, who may indeed be its ultimate source.
01:25:09: In verse 17, the word Jesus could have been accidentally added or deleted by transcribers owing to the presence of who mean before it.
01:25:17: Furthermore, the reading of B and manuscript 1010, the Barabbas, appears to presuppose in an ancestor the presence of Jesus.
01:25:25: The majority of the committee was of the opinion the original text of Matthew had the double name in both verses, and that Jesus was deliberately suppressed in most witnesses for reverential considerations.
01:25:36: In view of the relatively slender external support for Jesus, however, it was deemed fit to enclose the word within square brackets.
01:25:42: So what Metzger is saying is that the UBS committee, the majority of the UBS committee, felt that the reading, do you wish me to release to you
01:25:53: Jesus, the Barabbas, or Jesus, the one called
01:25:58: Christ? They felt that that was the original reading, but they put Jesus and then the definite article ton in brackets because there's so little external evidence for it.
01:26:13: Specifically, the word ton, the definite article, appears in Codex Vaticanus and a few others and in origin, as Metzger mentioned.
01:26:23: And then the term Barabbas is found in Sinaiticus Alexandrinus and in the majority text without the ton before it.
01:26:33: And so the reason that the NIV has it is due to the text that it's translating.
01:26:40: Now, for the sense of Muslims using this, that doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean anything.
01:26:49: The attempts that Muslims make to deny the crucifixion of Jesus are the clearest example
01:26:57: I know of, of special pleading and inconsistency on the part of Islamic apologists.
01:27:03: There is no way on God's green earth that you could hold to a conservative view of the transmission of the text of the
01:27:12: Quran and at the same time attempt to say Jesus was not crucified. Can't do it.
01:27:18: And I would love to meet that first Islamic apologist who tries to be consistent in doing so. I would love to arrange that debate.
01:27:26: It just simply cannot be done. You just fail to do so. And so I guess what they would be saying is, oh, well, they couldn't figure out which one was which.
01:27:35: Oh, yeah, sure. That's exactly what Matthew is communicating. That's exactly what happens is they don't know which
01:27:40: Jesus is which. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I'm sorry, but the reason that some people have suggested that Pilate offers up Barabbas is because of the similarity in names.
01:27:57: And hence he wants to draw this contrast between the two. And here you've got a robber, a murderer.
01:28:04: Certainly they're not going to ask for that kind of man, that Jesus. They're going to ask for the other Jesus. Well, they don't.
01:28:09: And they say, you know, give us Barabbas. And his plot is foiled, shall we say.
01:28:17: But the idea that there's a confusion and that Jesus is not the one crucified is absurd in the extreme.
01:28:22: All right. Thank you very much for listening to the program today. Thank you to all the callers.
01:28:29: Thanks especially to Colin calling in and giving us the report that if you speak the truth to Ergen Kanner and ask
01:28:38: Ergen Kanner to speak the truth, you are a godless pagan, a hateful godless pagan.
01:28:44: Doesn't sound to me like Ergen Kanner is quite yet to the point of understanding what repentance is.
01:28:51: And that's a cry in shame. We need to continue to pray for the man and call him to do what is right.
01:28:57: And all those associated with Veritas Seminary, do what's right. Speak the Veritas, men. You have no other choice.
01:29:04: Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on The Valuing Line. God bless. The Valuing Line.
01:29:55: The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.
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01:30:09: World Wide Web at aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N .O -R -G. Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.
01:30:18: Join us again this Thursday afternoon at 4 p .m. for The Dividing Line. Thanks for listening.