The Rebel To Your Will Interview

Welcome back to another episode of the Room for Nuance podcast. I'm your host Sean DeMars and you can't see my face.

Here's why. This week's episode is going to be about a book that I wrote called

Rebel to Your Will. This book came out earlier in 2024 and since it has come out a number of fans and friends have said oh you should talk about it on the

Room for Nuance podcast but I felt a weird about that. That's not really what the show is about promoting me and my stuff.

It's really more about promoting other people, their ministries, their resources. Nevertheless people kept asking about it and I thought okay we should consider it.

A number of good friends even offered to interview me about my own book for the show but at the end of the day none of it worked out.

While I was visiting a friend Dave King, future guest on the podcast by the way, be on the lookout for that episode interviewing him about his book,

Your Old Testament Servant Needs to Get Saved. But anyways Dave King actually interviewed me about my own book for his local church.

They have a podcast there for their local church and he interviewed me and when

I listened back to that interview I thought wow this is fantastic. I don't think anyone can do a better job than Dave King.

So Dave very kindly allowed us to just use that audio from his podcast on our podcast.

So that's what you're going to be listening to today. I hope it's edifying and encouraging and I hope by the end of it you'll pick up a copy.

Maybe not just for yourself but if you know anyone who struggles with father hunger or abuse or addiction

I pray that you'd give them a copy as well. May the Lord bless it to the glory of his name.

Amen. I want to read just one little section of your book Rebel to Your Will.

You say my little ladybugs love going to church. Those are your daughters, right? Why do you call your daughters ladybugs?

You know how like nicknames evolve. I called them my little ladies and then they became my little ladybugs.

Okay. You say my little ladybugs love going to church. They wake up on Sunday morning excited to spend the morning with the body of Christ.

They color quietly in the pew during the very long sermon. You preach a long time, huh? I do. They play hide and seek in the dusty old squirrel infested building with their friends.

They eat potato salad at the church potluck and learn the story of the gospel in Sunday school. This is the only life they've ever known.

They love their daddy. They love big hugs and back scratches and dessert night. They may not love their spankings but one day they will see the rod as an instrument of love.

This is the only Shawn they know. They will never meet the drug dealing, gang -banging, womanizing, burglarizing, cheating, thieving, blasphemer

I once was. Hurt people hurt people, but those who have been called by grace become new creations.

You are a new creation in Christ, and you chronicle that transformation that God brought about at your life in this book,

Rebel to Your Will, and I was so moved by this book, Shawn. It's so well written, it's easily accessible.

I should say it's PG -13. Yeah. I mean, you don't get graphic, but you give us enough detail to really understand the life that you've lived and what

God brought you out of. Yeah. And so I was eager just to sit down with you since you're here in town today.

Great. And talk to you about your life a little bit because I think it's gonna be an encouragement to our church.

Yeah. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna give labels for different parts of your life, and you can tell me if that's a good label or not, and we'll talk about what fits under that label.

All right. So like chapter one of your life. Okay. If I had a one -word description, I would say victim.

Okay. Okay. Is that fair? Yeah. I mean, I was victimized. I was abused from my earliest memories until I was old enough to stop it.

Yeah. One of the quotes in the book was, most of my young life was lived in fear.

That's a gripping to me to think about. I had a different kind of upbringing than you did. You don't have to go into all the details now, but could you give just a quick sketch of like what was it like growing up for you?

Yeah. You know, I understand it better now in light of my relationship with my own children, but the only real emotion

I ever felt towards my mother—I never met my father—was fear. You know, there was just like a constant sense of foreboding.

You know, when is she gonna fly off the handle, and when is she gonna try to molest me, when is she gonna beat me, when is she gonna cuss me out or be so drunk or high that she's gonna embarrass me, or you know.

So it was pretty constant for most of my life. Yeah. This was a hard thing for me to read.

I mean, you're kind of choking back tears as you read like things that you endured.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many little details that are calling to mind right now. Like having to eat hot dogs all the time.

I mean, we laugh, but that was because of a real problem you were living in the midst of.

What was that all about, the hot dog thing? So my mom, for several summers, she would just be basically drunk and high the whole summer, and she wasn't like a functional alcoholic.

So she would be basically incapacitated for a week at a time, and then she would wake up and maybe go to the grocery store.

But when she would go to the grocery store, it would almost be like she would plan to be incapacitated again for another week.

And so she would just buy a bunch of packs of hot dogs, and that's what I would live on for months at a time.

I remember I would be so excited. It would be such a big treat if she would ever come home with Hot Pockets, you know, because I would get

Hot Pockets then. And so the pattern was kind of like she would be really inebriated.

She would wake up and beat me pretty severely, and then use, and then go back to sleep. And and then

I would just find little pockets where I could, where I thought she was deep enough in sleep that I could heat up hot dogs and eat them without waking her up.

Yeah. Because I was just always afraid of waking her up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was your breakfast, lunch, dinner?

Breakfast, lunch, and dinner. A little bit later, she began to, she was a prostitute at a certain point, and I would, she had money then.

So we were like government, like Section 8 housing, government cheese, WIC family kind of a thing. But when she got a little money,

I used to steal money from her purse when she would pass out, and I would go down to the little Mexican restaurant down the street.

And so, or I would go to, we're getting way out of it, but we would, I would go to the convenience store and buy

Hot Cheetos and Mountain Dew. So I think for about six months there, I lived every meal of the day off of Hot Cheetos and Mountain Dew.

Oh wow. Which explains my physique today. Man, you're, your physique, we're not on video, but you've got the guns, man.

Oh man. I'm overcompensating, dude. Those Cheetos paid off. Yeah. So the next dark chapter of your life, we move from victim to victimizer.

Mmm, yeah, that's good. I should have put that in the book. No, tell me, like, one of the, one of the themes in your book is hurt people hurt people.

I think you say that three or four times. Yeah. So you weren't just a victim, you became a victimizer, you weren't just abused, you became an abuser.

I mean, tell us a little bit about that part of your life. I mean, you learn how to relate to other human beings by the way you relate to your parents.

And the way I related to my single parent was through hurt, you know.

So my conception of love was all wrapped up in pain. I mean, even to this day, to be honest with you, it like, as a 37 year old man who's bought and redeemed by Christ, who's a pastor, a faithful husband, father, like the most normal way that I communicate love is by making fun of people.

Hmm. Right? Yeah. And, and people who know me, they get it. Sarcasm.

It's a love language. It's a love language, but man, it has caused problems. You know, it's a relational thing that like,

I'm still trying to slowly work out of me. Okay. So that's, I've been walking with Jesus now going on 20 years.

And so praise God that that's kind of the worst of what I'm having to deal with in light of my childhood. But you can imagine an unregenerate 16 year old who suddenly discovered that like he can have power over women and even other men with, with violence and manipulation.

I mean, so yeah, it was really bad. Once I figured out that I didn't have to be the one who was hurt all the time, but that I could actually hurt other people.

That was the primary way I related to other human beings. And I heard a lot of people really bad. I mean, yeah.

That was your way of getting on top of the mountain. Like trying to. Yeah. Yeah. Even, even like we lived in the projects and what

I wanted more than anything was a dad, but I didn't have one. And every older male in my life,

I tried to kind of put in that place of a father. And they were all just really violent guys.

You know, when you're, when you're a drug dealer trying to climb the ladder, the older men, the wiser men, the stronger men, at least as you perceive them to be, that you look up to are the, who can be the most violent, you know, who can hurt people the most.

Like you see from a human perspective, this seems like how in the world could somebody like this get saved?

I mean, you hadn't really been to church. I mean, I think you maybe you had been in a church once. I went to a youth group that I got kicked out of.

Yeah. Yeah. For selling drugs. I went to youth group in all sincerity because that's where I knew girls that would put out.

Oh, wow. That's terrible. Terrible. Yeah. Yeah. So you get kicked out of the youth group. You're not really around church.

You've probably not heard the gospel. No, not really. I mean, in the Christian South, it's kind of in the, in the, in the ether a little bit, but I mean,

I didn't comprehend it. Yeah. Yeah. So you're, I think, 17, 18 years old, and you're dramatically saved.

I mean, how did that happen? Yeah. So I, I was about to go to prison for a long time for committing some, some, some crimes.

And I got accepted. I was a, I was a pimp and a drug dealer, and I got accepted.

I started at 17. This happened when I was 18. I got accepted into this program for adults, which was a

Christian ministry, by the way. One of the nice things about being in the Christian South is that judges are more than happy for like Christians to start halfway houses and drug rehab programs and last chance opportunities because it alleviates some of the burden that the state has to bear in relation to these criminals.

And so the judge in where I committed this crime had a relationship with this Christian program where like if, if I complete the program,

I won't have to go to prison. That was the deal. And so I get there and I just pretend to be a Christian, you know, so we go to church every morning you wake up and you do

Bible study. Every night you come home, there's a devotional. You go to church three times a week. I started going up and sharing my testimony.

Did you really? Oh yeah. So I mean, that's how they would raise funds. They had these love offerings. They would go to churches and the success stories would go up and share their testimony.

So I'd be in the bathroom doing like bumps of Coke. And then I would go wipe my nose and go up on stage and be like,

I want to tell you what God's done for my life. You know, so I was just pretending to be a Christian cause I didn't want to go to prison. So I was trying to like con my way through the program, but nothing was changing.

I was sleeping around. I was still cutting myself. And one night I tried to,

I tried to commit suicide, but I didn't really pull it off. And I was deeply depressed.

And I went to the guy who ran the place and I said, this is not in the book. I'm giving you the good stuff. Okay. I went to the guy who ran the place and I said,

I think I need to go to a mental hospital. You know, I have suicidal ideation and some, you know, all that stuff. And he said, no, you need to go to church.

And I was like, Oh man, what kind of world am I in? You know? And the church we went to wasn't a good church.

You know, it was probably Pentecostal and prosperity gospel, just like all the churches we went to. I mean, we were, we were at a weird

Southern Baptist church one night and a Pentecostal church another night and a whatever church the other third night. And so we went and again, like nothing happened.

And I came home from church that night and I got into a fight with one of the guys in the house.

It's a house full of criminals. So fights are easy to get into. And it was bloody. And I hurt the guy real bad.

I was covered head to toe in blood. He was too. And I knew this was my last strike and I was going to get kicked out of the program, which meant

I was going to go to prison probably for like 20 years. Wow. And so I took off, you know, and this is in Double Springs, Alabama, which is in the middle of nowhere.

Like if you go to the middle of the nowhere, if you go deeper into the nowhere, that's where this place is. And so I'm just running down the road in the middle of the night and nowhere to go.

I burned every bridge, no one to call. I have no one. I have nothing. And I finally just collapsed.

You know, I just came to the end of myself. And in a very melodramatic, made for TV moment,

I just collapsed to the ground and like cried out to the heavens. Like, it's something you would see on like a

Lifetime movie if people even know what that is. You know, the only way it could have been more dramatic is if like it would have been raining.

And, you know, right when I cried out to God, thunder struck, you know. Yeah. Or maybe the clouds part and a ray of light shines down on you.

That would have been great too. But I cried out. Were you gonna say something? I was gonna say, in your book though, you feel like no change after this huge melodramatic moment.

At least right then. Yeah. I didn't say God saved me. I just said,

God, if you're there, if you're real, you have to do something. Because I was very angry at God for not existing.

You know, I'd been molested and abused. And I always, when I was very young, I would pray for help.

Where did I learn to do that? I don't know, but I would pray for help. And so, but I finally now, as an adult, cry out to God again for help.

But this time it's angry. You know, you better do something. And then, of course, nothing happens. But then

I woke up the next morning and something did happen. I was a Christian. Yeah. So this is what

I would label as like chapter three of your life. Okay. So what's the word? Victim, victimizer, saved.

There you go. I mean, if you could have got a third V. Yeah, that would have been good. Yeah. V's are hard though for alliteration.

Yeah. Yeah. But you have this melodramatic moment on the road.

You cry out to a God that you're kind of angry at. Not even sure if he's there. But then the next morning, awake, oh sleeper, rise from the dead.

Yeah. I mean, Christ will shine on you. What happened? Describe that next morning. You know, when I was thinking about this recently,

I've never really thought about it. I preached on the resurrection of Lazarus. And I thought, oh, this is what it must have felt like.

Like you're just dead and then you wake up alive and you're trying to make sense of it. Yeah. And I didn't know.

And I didn't really try to analyze it. I was just filled with the joy of the Lord. I mean, I went around and I immediately started trying to like evangelize people.

Yeah. With the gospel, you're probably not even clear on it. No idea. All I know is I'm trying to tell people like, did you know?

Like, can you believe this? I actually thought, so a lot of people in that place, they were pretending to be

Christians too, because it's a Christian program and nobody wants to go to prison. Right? So, but I didn't know that.

I thought I was the only one who was pretending. And I didn't actually know the difference between like a regenerate person and an unregenerate person.

So I went to the people who were professing to be Christians to tell them like, I'm actually a

Christian. I'm not pretending anymore. Like, let's, let's read the Bible. And they were like, what? Get away from me.

You know, I was, I was trying to figure out plans to like, I wanted to get up on top of the, do you guys have

Jack's here? The restaurant? Oh yeah. Yeah. There was, there's one restaurant in double Springs, Alabama. It's the

Jack's. And I wanted to get up on the roof of Jack's, literally climb up onto the roof and preach the gospel so that like people would hear it as they're going in and out to get their chicken biscuit in the morning.

And so, yeah, I mean, I don't know, I couldn't explain it, but all I know is I woke up and all the things that I loved, drugs, sex, power, like all that stuff,

I just did not care about it anymore. I didn't even cuss, which is, you know, like I've seen a lot of people get saved and that's the one thing they struggle with.

Like, I just, I don't know. I just didn't do it anymore. Yeah. Everything was radically changed like instantaneously that next morning.

That's right. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It was incredible. So chapter four, would you own this next label as chapter four?

Heretic? Yeah, I would. Yeah. I think you told me once, I don't know if it's in your books, like you, you said something like I got saved and then became a heretic.

Right. Pretty wild. Yeah. Tell me about that. What was all that about? Yeah. So the first thing, very long story, but I, I ended up back in the town where I used to sell drugs and stuff and I tried going to church, but I didn't know.

I mean, I figured a church is a church is a church, right? So I tried going to visit this, a couple of different churches and it just didn't go well.

I mean, it's not like I got saved and I stopped dressing like a drug dealer.

You know what I'm saying? Like your clothes didn't change. Yeah. I didn't go to Belk and be like, okay, I need a suit. You know? I mean,

I still sagged my, my baggy pants. I still wore like wife beaters, like A -frame tank tops.

Right. I had gold teeth tattoos. I used to wear my hat real low. And I still kind of had like an aggressive posture.

Yeah. Little did you know, I, all I wanted to do was like talk to people about Jesus, but I would go and I visited these churches and like, you know, son, you take your hat off.

This is the house of the Lord. Don't disrespect God. You know? Like, and it just never went well. Yeah. Uh, they, youth pastors would be happy to have me come and like, you know, scare their kids with my really scary testimony.

Right. But then afterwards it was like, okay, you can go now kind of a thing. So I, I just,

I wasn't going to church. Nobody had offered to disciple me. Even, uh, well, okay,

I'm getting off track, but the first person who did offer to disciple me while I was out evangelizing in the neighborhood where I used to sell drugs, uh, was a guy who taught me the prosperity gospel.

Okay. And not a light version of the prosperity gospel. I'm talking like Kenneth Copeland, you know, all in prosperity gospel.

And I didn't know any better. I didn't know the Bible. I knew so little of the Bible that this one guy who did try to help me a little bit, told me that Jesus was a

Jew, you know? And I was like, let me stop you right there. You're an idiot. Jesus was a

Christian. I laughed out loud at that part of your book. Oh my goodness. So, so I didn't know anything.

So if he, he comes and he goes, let me show you this. She touched the hem of his garment and she was healed.

And I'm like, well, there you go. It makes sense. He takes you to the reciprocity principle, the, the blessing and the curses in Deuteronomy.

He's like, you see, if you'll just be obedient, God will give you good things. And if you're disobedient, God is going to give you bad things.

And I was like, no, yes, it's right there. Right there. So I didn't know any better. And so I was just all in. Yeah. I just wanted to,

I just wanted to do whatever I thought Jesus wanted me to do. So I thought that's what Jesus wanted. So I was,

I did it to the hilt. Yeah. Yeah. So that led you to a bad place. Physically, you were sick.

I don't remember the occasion for your sickness, but like you're, I had mercury poisoning. Mercury poisoning. And your mom finds you, is that right?

Yeah. Like you're about to die. The one woman who spent most of my life trying to kill me ends up saving me. Oh my goodness.

Unreal. Yeah. She drug me out of the bathtub and got me to the hospital. How did you come out of the heresy of the health, wealth, prosperity gospel?

Yeah. So we were, we were living, I mean, barely scraping by in Alabama. And I met a guy who said, you know, the military sucks, but they'll pay you.

Yeah. And I said, okay, I'll, I need to, I need money. So they even, no matter what,

I need money. So we joined the army. We? Yeah. Sorry, me and my wife joined the military. That's another side story.

But joined the military and the Lord sort of used that to get me away from this guy whose influence

I was under, which is, it's always the case, right? The prosperity gospel is usually very culty. And whether it's in a mega church or, or with one or two people, you're usually under somebody's kind of cultic influence.

So I got away from that. And I, when I was stationed in Seattle, I spent a lot of time on the internet, you know, it rains a lot and people are terrible out there.

So, so I spent a lot of time on, on MySpace. You like throwing shade on Seattle? Oh, every chance

I get. Okay. They think they're so cool. And on MySpace, I saw a

Paul Washer sermon, which led me to a John Piper sermon, which was kind of the beginning of the end.

Okay. You know. And then did you find yourself like reading good books?

Yeah. And it also... Go ahead, sorry. Yeah. Did you have anybody else that came alongside of you and was discipling you in the truth?

Yeah. So it was a mixture of like reformed books and Christian rap. Christian rap.

Christian rap. So like this John Piper sermon blew, blows my mind, right? And, and then

I'm like, okay, what else does this guy do? And so I got one of his books and like he, he references R .C.

Sproul. So I don't, all I'm doing, I'm just chasing the, there's a scent and I'm chasing the scent on the trail.

Right. So I buy an R .C. Sproul book. The first book I bought from him was like this really complicated apologetics book and I didn't have any idea what

I was reading, but I made myself read every last page of that book. Okay. And so, you know, this guy references that guy and you start going, oh, okay,

Crossway is a good publisher. Let me, who else, what's going on with Crossway? And so that's kind of, you know,

I started, you know, I got on this and that and the third. And so that was the book side of things. And I kind of on, on deployment to Iraq, put myself through like my little mini

Bible college. Like I must've read 300 books while I was deployed. And then, um, and then, uh, yeah,

I was listening to, somebody put me onto some Christian rap where it was actually like decent rap. It wasn't like, no offense again to your taste, but it wasn't like Toby Mack.

And they were like rapping about John MacArthur. Like one of the main choruses in their song was walking around with a

Johnny Mac in your backpack. See it rhymes, Johnny Mac. Yeah. And, and Lecrae has an album where there's a, there's a

John Piper thing on there. And then, and then Shy Lynn's rapping about election. And I'm like, my mind is blown.

I'm like, this can't be biblical, you know? And so, uh, yeah, Christian rap was a big part of it.

That's so cool. How the Lord would use that as part of your formation. Incredible. And it's done now, by the way, like what perfect timing because like guys don't do that anymore.

Lyrical theology. Yeah. It's not, it's not a thing as much as it was. Yeah. I hope it makes a comeback because the

Lord really used it. Chapter five of your life. How about this title? Missionary.

That's really exciting. Yeah, but it's a big part of your life though.

So you're saved, you become a heretic, but the Lord graciously brings you out of that heresy and forms your faith in a solid way.

Yeah. You finish your time in the military. Thank you for your service. And now the mission field, you and your wife take off to another middle -of -nowhere place.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So yeah, we were, our desire was to reach the Udairina people group in the jungles of Peru, the upper

Amazon River basin. And man, that was a wild four years.

Long story very short, we tried to go down there with Nine Marks DNA. We tried to, we had the vision of helping locals send out their own missionaries because it's just easier to cross those cultural barriers.

You know, Sean from the jungles of Los Angeles will probably not be able to reach the

Udairina people group as well as a Peruvian who lives just a couple of river stretches away from them.

Right. We had partners and we had connections locally on the ground. Unfortunately about six months into our time in the village, we uncovered a pedophile ring and it was being run by people who were ostensibly

Christians. And we tried to stop it. We got kicked out of our village. That was really hard for our teammates.

They ended up leaving. We tried to stick it out without teammates, trying to find new teammates. And we went to a different village and tried to reach a different people, the

Xawi people, and do stuff there. But you know, after that there was just kind of no coming back.

My wife got really depressed. I was sick the whole time I was there. I almost died of malaria and then

I had parasites the whole time. So after about four years, we just decided it was time to come home.

Yeah. And it was really hard because my whole identity was wrapped up in being a missionary and we had invested all of our time and all of our talent and all of our treasure.

But as soon as we got home, the Lord pretty quickly affirmed that it was the right decision.

And so, last chapter of your story, when you come home, you become a pastor. Is that right?

Yeah. Yeah. How did that come about? Well, yeah. So, I mean, everyone, since like the day

I got saved, people were telling me, like, you're gonna be a pastor. And at first I was like, great.

And then I became aware of what that means and I was like, ooh, no. That's dangerous.

You know, dangerous calling, right? And then through some more encouragement, when

I was a member of Capitol Hill back in 2011, I was like, okay, no. This is hard but good. Dangerous but necessary.

So, let's do it. And then after being a missionary, came home, had no idea what I was gonna do. I mean, I don't even have a high school diploma, much less a college degree or seminary degree.

And no churches were like beating down the door to offer me a job. So, a Presbyterian church said, hey, just come work for us and, you know, we want you to become

Presbyterian. Take a couple years. See if you can. And we'll pay you to kind of figure out what's next.

And so, I'm just still eternally grateful. Yeah. Particularly one one man, Tommy Lee. He just championed me and helped my family figure stuff out.

So, anyways, we did that and I decided I couldn't be

Presbyterian. And so, I emailed Mark Dever and asked him if he had room for me in the pastoral training internship.

And he said yes. And that was it. Okay. Yeah. So, now you're back in Alabama as a pastor.

Tell us about your church real quickly. Yeah. So, our church was a revitalization. It used to be a

Church of God church. Church of God Anderson. And now we're just probably what you guys would be.

Reformed, Baptistic, non -Marxie. Baptist in the sense of what your grandparents used to mean when they said

Baptists. Right. And yeah, by God's... When I got there, I used to say that Sixth Avenue was relationally vacuum -sealed, evangelistically inept, and doctrinally apathetic.

And so, now I don't think any of those things are true. We're doing well. We have about 94 members, several elders.

I think every church has its weaknesses. But by God's grace, our church is doing well.

Yeah. Yeah. You're doing well without a building. Yeah. We had a fire. We had a fire on January 1st. 3 .30,

got the call, you know, from the fire department. Your church is on fire. Come down, check it out. And so, for the last six months, six, seven months, we've been meeting in Sister Church's chapel.

But like I told your family last night, when I got to the church, we didn't have the gospel, but we had a building.

Now we don't have a building, but we have the gospel. So, we'll take that. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So, your family,

I guess that could have its own little chapter, but tell us just real quickly about your family. Yeah. So, I met my wife, actually, in high school.

We had the same social worker. So, when I got released from... I was incarcerated a bunch as a teenager.

When I got released, I had to have a social worker. Well, my wife lived in the

Baptist Children's Home, because she was abused pretty horrifically growing up. And our social worker knew that we were in the same

English class, and she connected us. And so, we dated. Neither one of us were Christians, and as you can imagine, that didn't go well.

But much to my chagrin, I have to say, I cheated on her. And we broke up, and she hated me.

Didn't ever want to see me again, and who would, right? She still doesn't want to see me sometimes. But we didn't see each other for years, and then she came into Cracker Barrel after I got saved.

And she wasn't a Christian, but I started sharing the gospel with her. And by God's grace, she got saved, and then as soon as she did,

I married her. That's awesome. Yeah. How long have y 'all been married? We've been married 18 years this year. Okay.

We have two kids, Patience and Bella, 12 and 10. Yeah, and my wife is like my, she's like my best friend, my partner.

There's, I use her to gauge what the, like, I'm kind of an idiot. So, when I think this is the Lord's will for my life,

I'm always just kind of looking at her. Like, yeah. Is that right? Is that right? Like, I ask

God, and then I confirm with Amber, just to double check. Because she is like, in my world, we used to say she's a ride -or -die chick.

You know what that means. Okay. Like, she's down for whatever. I said, hey, let's go take the gospel to the jungle where we're probably gonna die of dengue fever.

And she was like, let's go. Okay. You know, so she's usually a pretty good gauge for what, if it's too hard for her, then

I'm probably making a mistake somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is probably a good bookend to our conversation.

Yeah. Because I started with that quote about your girls, you know, never knowing the old Sean. They just know this new

Sean, and praise God for his grace. Yeah. Here we are talking about your wife and girls again at the end.

There you go. Hey, what would you say to somebody, just listening to this podcast, who hasn't had a dramatic story, a dramatic conversion experience?

What would you say to them? I would say, praise God. Well, no. First, I would say, you have had a dramatic conversion experience.

That's right. One of the things about my testimony is, after I share it, there's always someone who comes up and says, well, you know, they're just ho -hum, like, you know, well,

I just grew up in a Christian home, and there's never a time where I didn't know the Lord. And I'm just like, well, praise God that you're not aware of when you were converted.

But like, you were converted. You were dead in sin. And then you were made alive in Christ. And that was by God's miraculous, resurrecting power.

That's right. It's still a miracle. And so there's a sense in which everyone has the same testimony, right?

It's just the only difference is, mine was a little more dramatic in the lead -up. But, you know, there's a reason why.

I think one of the greatest things that Tim Keller did for our kind of generation was to re -popularize a right understanding of the parable of the prodigal son.

Right. There are two ways you can rebel against God, and they look very different in the eyes of the world, but they're equally offensive to the

Lord. You can stay at home and be a little Pharisee, right? Or you can go out and rebel, but both are equally lost, and both need to be resurrected.

And so whether you grew up in the church or you were a drug dealer like me, like we have the same powerful resurrection testimony.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, brother, I love you. I'm thankful for our friendship, but I'm just amazed by God's grace as I hear your story.

I want our people to know you've written three books. One I've already mentioned, Rebel to Your Will. I'll be giving away several of these copies over the next several weeks.

Nice. But somebody may want to pick that up. You've also written on the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel.

You have a little book called Health, Wealth, and the Real Gospel, and this is a really helpful little book.

You kind of sketch out the false teaching of the health, wealth, prosperity gospel, and who would you say this book is for?

Like, who would you recommend this book to? Yeah, great question. I wrote it specifically thinking of people in my congregation who, like, you have an aunt who loves

Joe Osteen, and you don't really know how to broach that conversation with her, and you can't give her, like, most of the stuff that's written against this is like really hard -hitting.

Yeah. Or it's academic. Right. I wanted to write something accessible and irenic. Yeah. So, like, you can give this to some, like, a co -worker and say, like, hey, like, let's read this together, and tell me what you think about it.

That's good. That's kind of the person I have in mind. Yeah, A -plus on that. I think you accomplished that goal.

For sure. It's, very clear and accessible, and then you kind of a short version of this in the church question series.

Our congregation is familiar with this series. Yeah. Does the gospel promise health and prosperity?

Yeah. So, same kind of thing. You would give this to anybody in the church, or... Yeah, so Nine Marks always does one big book, like you did it, like a big book, and then a little book, which, you know what, after writing some books,

I've been surprised how many people in my congregation haven't read my own, like, the books I've written, which is fine.

Great. We're not a cult. They don't feel like they have to read it, but if you're reading this as a member of Concord, and you haven't read

Dave's book, like, it's not just for pastors. It's fantastic. If you want to be a better student of Scripture and reading the

Old Testament, buy your pastor's book and read it. It's so good. It's so accessible. It'll help you love

Jesus more. Okay, back to my book. Okay, so I started working on this for Nine Marks through Crossway, like a year after this, and I just thought

I could take this and reduce it down, but because they're published by different people, they were like, no, you can't do it, so I basically had to rewrite.

Yep. Did you do the same thing? Yeah. I was like, oh, that's... So anyways, yeah, same thing, just smaller.

So if you're like, if you think my... Hold on, how many pages does this have? If you think my 99 -page book is too too dense to get through, there's a 35 -page book for you.

Yeah, there you go. 45. 45, okay. Don't sell yourself short there. What's next? Are you gonna do a little board book of this for kids?

Like Kevin DeYoung, he just keeps making them smaller and smaller, or bigger and bigger. No, so I'm working on something for Christian Focus right now on corporate worship.

I'm trying to help. The title is going to be, Give This Book to Your Worship Leader.

Okay. We just had a conference for worship leaders in Decatur, and you'd be surprised how many people lead

God's people in music who basically have no idea biblically what they're doing, or why they do it.

So I want to write something kind of in the vein of this friendly and accessible, short, and not threatening that you could give to a worship leader that might help adjust some stuff that needs to be adjusted.

And then I'm trying to work on a book on a theology of humor, which I'm sure at least a dozen people will read.

Yeah. You know. I would read it. Okay. Yeah, you're a funny guy. Oh, thanks man. But your dad jokes are outstanding. Well, speaking of jokes, this isn't a joke, but it is a factoid.

I shared it with your family last night. Do you think your congregation would be interested in hearing what

I was telling you about ants? Oh, I'm sure they would. Okay, so I found out that all ants are females.

Really? Yeah. How's that? Well, I'll prove it to you. If they were males, they'd be called uncles. There you go.

I mean, probably end on that note, right? Yeah, your book on humor is gonna be great. It's gonna be fantastic.

That and more. Can I pray for Sean? Thank you so much. Father, thank you for our time with Sean.

Thank you for your amazing saving grace in his life, and that he's been open with his story. And we see,

Jesus, that you get the glory for this. There's no other explanation for how a life can be transformed.

Thank you for what you've done. And Sean, I pray you would bless his family, bless his church, Sixth Avenue community, and that you would continue to cause his ministry to bear fruit.

And I pray, Lord, that we would be encouraged over your grace in our own lives. If we know Christ, the same miracle has happened in us, and that we would be enthralled with your grace, and that we would be eager to share it with others.

In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Before we sign off, a bonus for those who stuck around and actually prayed, right?

I'm imagining a lot of people were like, oh, they're praying. Pause, on to the next podcast. We have a podcast episode coming out,

Room for Nuance. Are you gonna share it with your church? I will, yes. You did a great job. Thank you. So yeah, your pastor has a podcast with me coming out soon, where he talks about his book.