Full Preterism? That's a Holy Nope with Dr. Sam Frost & Austin Keeler DMW#210

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from

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Now that we got the business out of the way, let's get to the meat.

First time guest on the Dead Men Walking Podcast.

Just met him a few days ago.

Thoroughly impressed.

I already love him as a brother in the Lord.

It is Sam Frost.

How are you, Sam?

I'm doing well.

Business before pleasure.

Business before pleasure.

That'll be the pleasure part.

There you go.

Okay.

We'll see if you hold up to it.

So, obviously, we're recording here.

If you're watching or listening, you might hear some stuff going on in the background.

We are at the Y Kelvinism Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

And Sam is one of the speakers and did the pre -conference on Wednesday night, which I attended, which was

phenomenal.

And I said, we got to talk about some of the things he's talking about, writing about, things like that.

But first, introduce yourself to the listeners.

Tell us a little bit about yourself.

What's the origin story, as they say in the comics of Sam?

Well, currently, I'm an instructor with Life Bible College, and they have an outlet there

in Papua New Guinea.

Okay.

And I also am working for becoming a commissioned ruling elder in the PCUSA

church.

Okay.

And I know that's going to ring a lot of alarms there, but trust me, I'm still Westminster confession of faith

guy.

Okay.

So you're Presbyterian, not lesbiterian.

Oh, I'm sorry.

This is what we do on this show, guys.

Sorry.

I'm keeping that one.

We take learned men and we bring them down to my level.

You guys know the show.

Yeah, I'm Presbyterian.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, and there's a few of us conservatives still in the PCUSA.

Okay.

So we're not, haven't surrendered yet.

So what are we doing?

Are we trying to do a reformation within that PCUSA?

Are you going, hey, I'm not leaving, I'm here to stay?

As long as I'm tolerated.

Okay.

So, yeah.

So minister in Knightstown along with Pastor Alan McRane.

Okay.

And Knightstown, Indiana, Bethel Presbyterian Church.

Okay.

Nice thriving community there.

Got my doctorates, do some writing.

I think we have an article coming out, biblical, bibliotheca sacra that's coming out, being

published and do conferences like this on pre -preterism.

I did not know that.

I'm sorry.

I'm going to introduce you as Dr. Sam Frost.

I do like to use that title because it is earned.

So, yeah.

My wife keeps saying that and I don't use it.

But you got to use that.

We pay a lot of money for that.

I was going to say, it's a sign of respect.

If anyone's been through, you know, doctoral candidate and things like that, it's a lot.

Of work.

It's a lot of work.

If you're a doctor, I call you a doctor.

It's a lot of work.

So just involved in that, but I used to be one of the main leader teachers in the full preterist

movement.

Yeah.

Came out of that 2011, 2010, 2011.

Okay.

And wrote a book on that why I left full preterism that was picked up by American Vision first

and now published by Kenneth Gentry's outfit.

Yeah.

Dr. Gentry's outfit.

But mainly, my main focus is the pews.

That's a trance.

I was raised in church.

Grew up in Foursquare Gospel Church.

Okay.

Loved everything about churches, church buildings, church pews.

Yeah.

Church smells.

You know, always just love.

Every church does have a unique smell too.

It does have a unique smell.

He pointed that out Wednesday night.

Walk into a church.

Yep. This is a church.

So that's the trenches.

That to me is, you know, and being in a rural area

post COVID, that really hit hard on a lot of these churches with 30, 40 members and now they're down to

15 members.

Right.

So it's a battle.

Yeah.

I enjoy it.

And I'm still young enough at 56 to stay in that.

Do you find kind of where you're, one of your areas of expertise, full preterism,

which we were talking about this on another episode with Jeremiah Nortier, who you know.

I blame him for a lot.

You blame him for a lot.

Okay.

Just, I've seen it.

I feel like I've seen it on the rise in the last five to 10 years to where more people are talking about it.

Obviously, there's a, you know, big scuffle with Gary DeMar and we were talking about that off camera to where he was on

the podcast almost four years ago now, well, three and a half years ago, and really

holds probably a different position than he did now, but he was getting there then it feels like.

And for those that are listening going, what are you talking about?

You can go listen to our episode on full preterism, but essentially saying all prophecy has been fulfilled.

There is no return of Christ.

There is no resurrection of the dead.

Really taking Orthodox Christianity in the eschatology area and removing all that and is heresy.

And you're saying you were there.

You're now out of it.

Do you see what you're doing is needed in the church today?

Are you coming across people who are going, yeah, I was considering that or that seems legitimate to me

or I'm open to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I've over the last few years, I get a lot of emails and many are from pastors

that are one or two people have come into their church leading a Bible study or something

and they begin to introduce the full their full preterist that are infiltrating the churches there.

I've encountered this now several times.

Some have had to be brought before the elders excommunicated

sought to have conference or confrontation with them.

At that point, many of them in these various churches have left.

They don't want to be confronted.

Yeah.

There was an elder that recently stepped down and left a church that he helped found, but

he was full preterist and caused a great rift.

I've seen this quite a bit.

So it's becoming I wouldn't say it's.

You get these phenomenas in Christianity, you know, like Rick Warren wrote

purpose driven church, right?

Sure.

And or purpose driven life, life and church.

He did a church.

And he did.

Yeah.

And then he had to make the sequel.

When you saw no one heard Rick Warren.

And then all of a sudden overnight, almost.

Yeah.

Everyone's reading this book.

He's the new self -professed Charles Spurgeon.

Yeah.

So he's trained over a million pastors and they and it's transcendent.

It goes across denominational lines.

Everybody's reading this.

Episcopalians are reading it.

Presbyterians are reading it.

Reform Baptists are reading it.

Everybody's reading this stuff.

So full preterism has not done that yet.

But very well could.

You're saying the closest it's come is

maybe R .C. Sproul's book.

Last Days According to Jesus.

He's that book.

But Max King and Ed Stevens on the map.

And those two were full preterist.

OK.

Those two are kind of big in that.

OK.

And that was written in 98.

I believe.

Well, that's also a concern, too, when you have any type of platform.

I was talking to Dr.

It's like it's tough.

You don't you know, sometimes you're just platforming people, especially in the days of social media.

If that person with a heresy or with a weird view, minority view can get their name in your

lips to your platform.

It's clout chasing and it's tough.

I imagine you come into this, too, because you've been doing this a long time.

You have a little bit of a platform.

People know who you are.

You write books.

You got to talk about these things.

But at the same time, sometimes they're just better left maybe to in the dark in their own devices.

And no one would ever hear of them.

Enter one.

Jeremiah Nortier.

So he's the one.

So I was going to get out of it because I'm just pursuing more academic things now in this time in my

life.

So and being out of it, I left full preterism in 2010,

2011.

Yeah.

And there's been hundreds that have come out over the years that have.

There's groups.

There's whole groups in Facebook, ex -full preterists.

So that's welcoming.

Okay.

And then I've been able.

There's three groups of people.

So there's the ones who are coming out of it.

They just see the wreck that it is, thank God, and they study their way out of it, that this is just not

working.

Yeah.

And then there's the group that is looking into it, but they've never

become full preterists, but you're able to dissuade them from it.

Okay.

They avoid it.

Right.

But they study it.

They look at it and say this is not tenable.

Then there's the other group that have never heard of it.

So I frequent a lot of churches and do a lot of ecumenical things with other denominations, other churches we get together.

They've never heard of it.

Okay.

Is that who you're kind of focusing on too?

That's the church at large.

Church at large.

Okay.

Just everyday average Joe and Mary go to church.

Good Jesus -loving people, good community people, good educators, whatever.

And you say, well, full preterists.

Sam, I noticed on your face you talk a lot about these full preterists.

What do they believe?

Well, they believe Jesus came back and the dead were raised in 70 A .D. and they just roll their eyes and say, well, that's insane.

And they never give it another.

Right.

That's the majority of church folks that I meet.

But you do have those inquisitive types.

Sure.

So Jeremiah, I was going to get out of it, and Jeremiah said, no, don't.

Because you're a source.

Once you think you're out. They keep pulling me back in.

Okay.

Right.

One of those.

So, yeah, Al Pacino.

So Jeremiah said, I want everyone to know about this so that when they see it coming, that's the problem.

They don't see it coming.

Makes sense.

And we need to expose this for what it is on a larger platform.

You can't do anything about those that are going to go full tilt.

Yeah.

So I stopped worrying about that.

Okay.

And in God's providence, he does what he does.

Yeah.

So Jeremiah talked me back into using it still as something to expose.

Use that as a part of my many other things that I do.

But that's going to be a part of it that's going to stay.

Okay.

Well, and I'm glad it is because I think it's very important.

I heard you use a couple words, and I want to ask you the end result of full preterism.

You heard people see what a mess it is.

People kind of see it's not tenable, right?

I only have two experiences with full preterists.

One of them was about eight years ago.

It was a young lady.

She sent me a message.

What do you think of full preterism?

And at that time, I had to go, well, I'm not learned enough to really even advise.

I had to Google it and go, okay, let me make sure I'm right on what I tell her before, you know, because I had an

idea of it.

But like I said, I was one of those that just went early on.

Oh, these are the tenets.

I'm out.

It's right.

So I didn't know the nuances of it.

You know, eight years later, she's a full preterist, and it goes from, hey, man, all we need to do, the only command

we have is to love one another, right?

That's where she went.

But there's guys like Sean McCrary online, ex -Mormon, and then you see his progression over five or

six, seven years.

And now he's to the point of like, there is no commandments, just love God with all your heart, which sounds good in theory,

but it just seems to go into this really weird hippie kind of no rules, no order, just, hey, man,

just love.

And so there's a couple experiences where that has been the experience.

You know, I'm not trying to generalize all full preterists, right?

But I guess what I'm asking is, you said it's untenable.

They see what a mess it is.

What are you talking about when you say full preterism is a mess or it's untenable?

Where do you eventually get to as a full preterist?

What does that look like pragmatically in real life, that theology?

That's the million -dollar question that's creating a lot of problems, because I still keep my finger on the pulse of what's

going on.

And amazingly, like on Facebook or other social media platforms,

I've not been unfriended by the major leaders, so I'm still

friends with them.

And so I still go to the websites and read what they're doing.

And then a good deal of the audience that are readers of what I do on Facebook,

a lot of them are full preterists, so they're just attacking me.

And I let them do that.

I don't block them.

I don't edit them.

I don't take their comments down or anything, because I want people to see what they're saying.

And they've become a movement now where you get five full preterists in a room.

You know the old Baptist joke, you get five Baptists and you get 17 views.

That's what's happening to them.

So it's not this monolithic kind of thing.

It's becoming a movement like any other movement.

It's fragmenting.

It's imploding on itself.

And the question is, is what now?

Post 70 A .D.

Some are saying, well, there's no more need for church.

That's what I mean.

There's no more need for the Lord's baptism.

There's no more need for the Lord's table.

It's been fulfilled.

It's all been fulfilled.

All of those things are rooted in eschatology and have an eschatological

dimension to them.

And if it's all fulfilled, then it's...

And the traditionalist in the new heavens and new earth, no, we won't be taking communion in the Lord's table and we won't be doing these things.

We're in an age of perfection.

Eternity.

So they're trying to take eternity and apply that now.

Right.

See how that works?

Yeah.

So how do you do that?

And then you die and go to heaven and then you're really perfect.

Well, some have suggested maybe we won't be perfect in heaven.

Maybe we'll still continue to sin and grow and continue to...

It's just another stage.

It's just another...

It's just another...

Whatever.

It's just another kind of thing.

So Max King and Doug King, who I think are the founders

of full preterism...

Which is not that old, by the way.

We established it with Jeremy.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

So this is...

He's the first that really takes it.

Because you get early forms of preterism, 19th century.

And the one that took it the furthest would be J. Stuart Russell.

Milton Terry would be another one.

They took it as far as you could get it.

But they still had a millennium and an end.

Right.

At some point in time.

The full preterist Max King, the full preterist Don Preston, there's no literal end

to history now as we know it.

Okay.

This goes on for infinity.

It never...

This plane that we're on now never ends.

So what is the full preterist's hope?

What is their hope?

You die and go to heaven.

You just die and go to heaven?

That's about it.

Yeah.

Because dying and going to heaven was not available before Jesus.

You died and you went to, you know, hot days.

You know, you went to...

Sheol.

Yeah.

Some spooky world.

And so now since Jesus has died for our sins, he has removed spooky world and thrown

it into the lake of fire.

And so now the redemption is we die and we're in the presence of the Lord.

That's the gift that we're given.

Yeah.

That's it.

That's it.

Why do you feel...

Okay, so it's getting fragmented.

So it does sound like you're saying there is a little bit of maybe lawlessness or kind of wild west mentality

sometimes within full preterism.

Why is that?

Why is it just saying, well, we're saying millennium is fulfilled.

We're saying all these things.

Why would it naturally move in that direction?

I think I know why it would.

But to me, I look and I go, well, your eschatology, if you're Amill or Premill or

Postmill, there's still some structure there of like we have a hope to come.

There's a resurrection.

There's judgment.

There's all these things.

I think that feels like it kind of keeps us in line.

Right.

So why does it...

You're still obeying.

But if everything is fulfilled, again, there's not going to be ethics and morals in the new heavens and new earth.

It's a genuine we will be one with the Father.

Yeah.

It's a genuine obedience.

It's not like, oh, well, I really don't want to obey God.

Yeah.

I guess I should because it would be the right thing.

I'm not going to be having that thought process in the new heavens and new earth.

So, again, if you take that and apply it to today and all sin is literally

gone, it's fulfilled because the law has been fulfilled and the law's definition of

sin.

Without law, there is no sin.

Well, law has been fulfilled and done away with.

Then you have no more sin.

Right.

So now everything's permissible.

Not in the covenant sense.

Everything's in the covenant sense.

Yeah.

You have...

You might drink too much and that's creating some problems in your marriage.

I suggest that you get a handle on that.

Right.

But don't condemn yourself.

Don't think that you've got to do that because God's going to not take you to heaven.

You're still going to...

You're going to heaven.

It doesn't make any difference.

But don't look at alcoholism as a sin.

Okay.

It's just a problem.

Yeah, just something that might give you some consequences you don't want.

Yeah, yeah.

Like anything else.

That's kind of the approach to ethics and morals that I'm

finding in the audience of Full Preterist.

Man, that's crazy because the two people I know, they kind of have that view.

And one of them's an alcoholic and I'm like,.

Oh, no.

And it's...

I don't want to typecast or cliche, but just the two...

Because like I said...

There's no sense of urgency.

Yeah.

It's just so crazy that your eschatology shifting to that type of heretical eschatology.

It really does.

It kind of gives you a paradigm shift in...

Oh, sure.

In everything.

So saying that and this being rather new, 70s, well,

compared to church history, extremely new.

Well, let me back up.

So you had Russell, you had this preterism.

Yeah.

It's been around for quite some time.

Sure.

King was the first to take the thousand years and shrink it between the ascension of Christ and 70 AD.

Okay.

That's the thousand years.

To get everything in there.

That's Don Preston, Mike Sullivan.

Okay.

Dave Curtis.

Yeah.

I think Gary DeMar now is doing that because he's with Kim Burgess now.

So Gary's saying when you die, you get your body in heaven.

You get a new body in heaven.

Okay.

So that's resurrection.

That's the body.

Okay.

Which is not a resurrection.

No.

No, it's definitely not.

Resurrection means, definitionally, from death, from the dead.

Last I checked.

Yeah.

So Lazarus would be a good example.

Yeah.

He's dead, four days, resurrection.

So what prompted you or got you interested in this theology?

What was your upbringing, and how did you get to that point?

Because you came out 2011, but when did you first identify?

What year did you go, yeah, I'm a full Preterist.

Probably 92, 93, somewhere around there because I was reading Preterist

material.

Gary DeMar, Ken Gentry, James B. Jordan, Gary Norris,

David Chilton.

Of course, he's probably most known.

Yeah.

But I came from a dispensationalist background.

That's another interesting biography about a lot of full Preterists.

A lot of them.

I won't say all of them, but a good deal of the ones, the hundreds of thousands that I've met,

come from a dispensationalist background.

Okay.

Why do you think that is?

Well, you've got a movement that is wholly future.

Everything's future.

Everything's put into the future.

All or nothing.

It all stands or falls together.

Interesting.

So full Preterism is all or nothing in the past.

It all stands or falls together.

You can't break it apart.

So if all of Matthew 24 is fulfilled, and even Matthew

25, all of that's 70 A .D., so is 1 Thessalonians

4.

Right.

So is 1 Corinthians 15.

Yeah.

They're talking about the same thing.

Yeah, so you can just flip a switch and go from future to past.

Yeah.

It's all bundled up in kind of the same idea.

I just connected the dots and thought, well, if Matthew 24 is fulfilled, all of it, every bit of it,

1 Thessalonians 4, using the language of Matthew 24, is

fulfilled.

All of Revelation is fulfilled, which parallels the Olivet Discourse there.

I think many scholars have noted that.

So that's all fulfilled.

So we're in the new heavens.

So what's preventing me from saying the resurrection of the dead?

It can't be bodily resurrection.

Right.

Maybe it's spiritual resurrection.

And there's certainly literature out there that talks about spiritual being made alive.

Well, let's draw off of that.

Certainly in Calvinist literature about dead men can't believe.

Yeah.

So you start using that metaphor of dead men can't believe where they've come to life,

regeneration.

Dead men walking, yeah.

Dead men walking.

So we use that.

We were pulling out of that, and that's because we're constrained by

the time text now.

This generation, some of you standing here, so not haste death.

You won't finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

So that constrains your time.

If everything is to be fulfilled in this generation, Jesus' contemporary generation, well, then

that includes resurrection of the dead.

Right.

So you're tied by that now.

You can't go outside of that.

And if that's 70 A .D., is that end point, then you have to define resurrection as

taking place in 70 A .D.

Well, all the creeds and confessions and commentary say it's bodily resurrection.

Well, that's fallible.

Right.

The scriptures are infallible.

So there's a heavy belief on the infallibility

of the scriptures.

And so full preterists claim to believe in the infallibility of scriptures, but they have a disdain for creeds.

They're keeping like Max King, Don Preston, or Church of Christ guys.

Yeah.

Any confessions, creeds, anything like that is just man -made

traditions.

Yeah.

And does not overturn the rule.

Well, generally, when a group or someone, you know, a sect interprets the

Bible very narrowly to fit something, they generally don't like creeds and confessions because

those are the majority of what people have agreed upon in the majority.

You know?

For me now as an indicator, that's a red flag.

Yeah.

I'm a sole scripture.

I believe in the ultimacy of scripture, obviously.

But what's nice is—.

It's a red flag.

What's nice for them and those types, and I get this a lot.

I have a large King James only church right around the corner from me, and I've talked to them.

They interpret it their way, but then they get to claim, well, I believe in the inherency of scripture,

but my interpretation of the inherency of scripture.

Because no one here, I don't think we're saying we don't believe in the inherency of scripture.

We do believe in it, but it's one of those things where you can take very narrowly interpret it or interpret it in a way that hasn't been

historically interpreted through creeds and confessions, and then know that that's my way and that's inherent.

So yeah, creeds and confessions kind of have to go.

I think it was a deliberate term when they said the supreme authority.

That's a superlative.

It's not the only authority.

Yeah.

So it's the supreme among many other authorities.

It's the supreme.

That term implies that there's other authorities in church life.

So we're not saying that the Bible is the only authority.

There's no other authorities at all.

Yeah, it's the supreme.

To appeal to.

So it's the supreme amongst these other authorities.

So what are these other authorities then?

Well, creeds, confessions, things stated in unity with other.

Sure, many emperors and kings were supreme authorities, but they had many governors and things like that below them that also held authority, but

ultimate authority went to one.

You've got to listen to that.

Church theology is done within the community of the saints.

It's not done in a vacuum.

So when you're going through that, let's go back to the 90s.

Did you start to gravitate towards that because you're going, okay, I'm reading some books.

I'm also looking at the Word.

I'm looking at Scripture.

Was it something where you went, this makes head sense to me or I'm

convinced because of these writings?

Like any theological decision where you go, okay, this is my systematic theology or this is my doctrine.

Was it something that you just went, it made, like I said, it made sense.

It just made sense.

It looks like it cleaned everything up kind of a little bit for your eschatology.

It cleaned everything up because we were, of course, you get the, if Jesus expected this to happen

in his generation and it didn't happen, you're faced with that criticism

of the Scriptures.

Then Jesus obviously is not who he says he was or he's an error on some

parts or at least the Bible is an error written in the first century and they're expecting this

imminent dawning of God and it doesn't happen.

So that's the higher criticism that we hear quite a bit and that's pretty staple.

So on the flip side is Jesus can't be a failed prophet

but we'll agree with the critics that, yes, Jesus did expect this to happen in his time.

So now we have to go back and redefine what fulfillment would look like.

This is where we spiritualize.

So that becomes our hermeneutic is to spiritualize everything.

So the sun turning to blood and all that, that's apocalyptic language.

It's just mere metaphor for a Jewish war.

And so that's where we do that kind of stuff.

So as I've become more mature in my studies and getting involved in those who have

actually done the work in apocalyptic literature, these are the

scholars that are looking at the actual fragments of the, these are the ones that are being asked to

translate and they work with us.

So 50, 60 years they've been doing this like John Collins and several others.

Would never describe apocalyptic in that fashion.

Yes, it's metaphorical, but it's more than just depicting a little skirmish or a war

over here.

This is decreation language.

This is the way that it's used.

Dead Sea Scrolls is using it.

Clearly more than just a war is involved.

This is God breaking into and radically changing the landscape in terms of justice.

There's not going to be any head scratching when this happens.

You're going to know it.

Even the nations are going to know it.

So it's that kind of in -breaking of God.

And 70 AD has just, in most churches is a forgotten or if

even known event.

I never heard of it growing up.

Very little was said to me when I grew up in church.

Not until I got to college.

Yeah, me too, early 20s.

And then you find out Josephus and they're like, why didn't I, no one's ever talked.

Well, yeah, I mean it's, the war happened a long time ago.

Where do you, okay, so two questions.

Where are you now on your eschatology?

I'd be interested to know because I don't think we discussed that.

And then two, I've always been very interested in seeing that the animal sacrifice stopped right around the same time that the temple was

destroyed.

Where do we, I mean, I would say that could even give partial or full preterism a little boost and go, see, that's the

age we're talking about.

The age is over.

I mean, that's a huge thing in Jewish history.

You tell me for thousands of years we have Jewish sacrifice, or Jewish, sorry, animal sacrifice.

And then Christ comes, rises, ascends, and now it's end?

I mean, just, even if you're a non -believer, you go, those two things happened really close together in history.

It's always interested me, so.

There's, Jesus in Matthew 24 definitely mentions the events of what becomes

the Jewish war, 66, 70 CE.

So there's no, no one doubts this.

And even in dispensationalist, whether it be Tom Iser, John Walbert or

anybody, they're going to mention this.

So that's pretty staple.

The question is, is that the end all be all of what Jesus was talking about in that entire thing?

Was that the end of the age?

Was that the end of that age?

Yeah.

So that becomes then the key question.

Because if you back up and go to Matthew 13, he gives a parable about the end of the age.

And he mentions that phrase, end of the age, when he will take out all that cause scandal and all who do wicked

and bundle them up and throw them into fire, into the fire.

That will be at the end of the age.

Well, okay.

How do you explain for that in 70 AD?

Well, okay.

It doesn't mean the world, even though the parable says the field is the world.

Yeah.

It's the Jewish world.

And Jesus took out the wicked Jews and burned them up in the fire.

And so you see how you're kind of allegorizing now.

Yeah.

It's a lot of mental acrobats you got to do to get there on.

That.

You're constrained to do that kind of stuff.

And again, biblical scholars look at that and we'll say that's a vicious bias.

You're really reading into the right text there.

I could see where you're doing that.

But if that if you're constrained by 70 AD and that is the end

point, that's the system you're viewing outside of you have to, then you have to do that kind of stuff.

You must do it.

And does it make sense when you do it?

The world is the Jewish world and the Jews that crucified Jesus were

burned up in 70 AD.

Titus burns down the temple and that's the world he's worth.

Yeah.

You can allegorize point by point that.

But is that what that text is?

Really?

Let's see what the scholars.

Let's see what the consensus is out here in the vast majority liberal and conservative or good

hermeneutics.

Let it disagree with Bible interpret the Bible as well to.

Jews and heard that.

They thought, oh, he's just talking about.

Yeah.

They.

So you read Dead Sea Scrolls that uses that language.

They're not talking about Jerusalem being involved.

They're talking about a worldwide God making himself so known that

it is impossible to deny.

Yeah.

He has broke into the world or what we would call new heavens.

They were second coming.

Yeah.

Resurrection of the dead.

You know all of that.

So we had to redefine these categories.

Once you start doing that we started realizing that progressive sanctification that's rooted in eschatology.

That's from what's our order of Saludis regeneration.

Yeah.

Glorification.

Yeah.

Right.

Or glorification is 70 AD and we're glorified now when

we believe not according to biological change.

Right.

But by spiritual change.

Well how does that affect your ethics.

You still sin.

Oh I don't really sin.

Not sin.

It's problems.

You see how it gets back to the right.

You have to redefine all of this.

Yeah.

Literally your entire perspective on how you're going to view not only your own practical life but the

world around you and how you interpret the world around you.

So like Ukraine right now or Gaza Israel.

That's a mess.

It's horrible.

Yeah.

Well that's.

Well is that the wrath of it.

No the wrath of God's been fulfilled.

Don Preston will tell you the wrath of God's been fulfilled.

Geez.

What are we doing now.

What do you know.

What do you call it over there too.

And where are we going.

Are we going anywhere in the.

Yeah.

So that's where the disconnect there.

And I think when you wonder when I wandered that deep into it because it's all shiny and new at

first 70 AD.

It answers a lot of questions.

Well there's a lot of at hand.

Like DeMar loves the at hand.

It's close.

It's here.

So you can kind of start there as a stepping stone and goes ahead.

It kind of fits everything.

It's exciting. It's new.

Yeah.

Got a hold of something here and 70 AD and Josephus and scholars and you're bringing

all that together.

And then you've got to start working on what Dr. Talbot Dean of Whitfield Theological Seminary really hammered into me

because what about now.

Yeah.

What's God doing now.

What's up.

What are you doing now.

What's the church doing now.

Yeah.

What are we.

Are we supposed to be socially involved.

Does it matter.

Yeah.

If you just die and go to heaven what does it matter.

What we do here on earth.

I mean everyone's going to die and go.

Yeah.

One place or the other.

So what what future do you.

Why would you want to stop abortion.

It's going to go on for infinity.

So whatever we stop today is just going to crop up again for infinity.

You know the problems of infinity.

Yeah.

Philosophy or notorious.

The Greeks hated it.

Yeah.

Because whatever you stamp out now if you have an infinite.

Well it's not just pop back.

So yeah.

What's the point.

Yeah.

You just died.

Live your life.

Do as best you can.

Very nihilist view.

Heaven.

Yeah.

Get it over with.

So where do you.

Let's wrap this up.

Bookends on this one.

Hopefully I've turned you to turn you against.

I've never never was.

But in I wasn't going to cover partial preterism with you because we've talked about it before and Jeremiah talked about a

little bit but I would say where do you land now.

After all this you've been through this journey.

You have obviously have schooling and training and all these things.

You've gone through full preterism.

Where do you land now in your eschatology.

And why.

I'm a millennial.

I'm a millennial.

Pretty comfortable there.

That lets.

That's a very broad.

That's where I'm at.

And I feel like it's the.

I don't know.

And I don't get disgruntled by my dispensationalist friends.

I've got a lot of more premium.

It doesn't bother me as much as what it used to.

Yeah.

When I was 20 30 years old.

You're wrong.

Yeah.

These are brothers in Christ week.

And as Sam Waldron here was just saying we have that same boundary and

hope.

Yeah.

A new heavens and a new earth and where God will make all things right.

Yeah.

And we will live forever from all of the believers from Adam to the last day.

We'll all be in unity together living together.

Yeah.

In perfect harmony with God and creation.

And that's my hope.

And I long for it.

I live for it.

And now I have incentive.

Now I have incentive ethically.

Yeah.

My life.

Because if that's where it's going.

Perfection.

Well then I want to.

I want to be now on the road towards perfection.

Sure.

Now I have incentive.

The full protest doesn't have that.

Yeah.

That's been ripped out.

So that's where I'm at.

I would say to just for the listeners and I'm just talking to majorities here not generalities but prime

majorities.

Look at dispensation list.

Classic classical pre mills post mills and mills can probably all disagree with each other but

still go.

OK.

Not heretical but all three of them can agree most likely majority wise agree that full preterism

is a heresy.

Yeah.

And I think that's the difference we need listeners to understand too.

We're talking about something that really the majority of all other eschatology you know other views within

eschatology.

Look at that and go OK.

That's not orthodox.

Right.

Right.

I think it needs to be condemned.

Yeah.

On that level love the full preterist and I am the full preterist.

I hope to God I'm wrong but I feel what you're doing is very important for the next 10 20 years because we are on a secular

path of where there's lawlessness and hey do what you feel and your truth and

that's leaking into eschatology and theology within the church.

Right.

You have a very woke liberal kind of leftist understanding in some of these churches.

Well the natural progression of that would be hey man it's all fulfilled and we we have problems we

just don't have sin we just need to you know we just need a good therapy session once a week at church.

Our TED talk right.

We've got counseling programs.

I mean it's really I've seen megachurches that act like that that really function like that.

Oh no.

And I'm sure you've been in a way.

So I think what you're doing and talking about this is very important because I could see it being a very big

issue for the church if not nipped in the bud.

You know people like you are there and going oh no no I've been through it I understand it.

It's heresy and here's why.

I empathize.

I'm glad that Jeremiah brought you back in.

He's the Al Pacino.

I would be the Al Pacino.

You're the Al Pacino.

Yeah.

Well Dr. Sam Frost thank you so much for being on Dead Man Walking podcast.

Any time you want to come back on and discuss stuff we'd love to have you.

Obviously we do stuff over stream streaming as well too but it's so good to meet you here at this conference and

looking forward to the rest of it.

Guys thanks so much for listening to another episode of Dead Man Walking podcast.

As always you can find us at DMW podcast dot com.

Got some snarky T -shirts there.

The wine I'm dying.

I'm Romans nine.

I'm great T -shirt good conversation starter.

Go grab it support the show and is always remember the chief and a man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

God bless.

And we have Austin Keeler with us.

Is that.

That right.

Austin Keeler.

I just met him this week.

I had seen him on some of his videos on social media which I believe you're part of the Holy Nope brand.

Is that correct.

That's correct.

So if you guys are watching this you go.

I recognize that mustache.

He's here in person.

So we're going to talk to him a little bit.

Tell us a little bit about yourself so the listeners can get to know you if they don't know you and where they can find you at online.

Yeah I am a former missionary to West Africa and now based in

Shelbyville Kentucky.

One of the pastors at Reformation Church located over there and the Holy Nope is a ministry I

started really last year I think.

And it was really an accident.

I think I was I was I was making content for a completely different

purpose on Tick Tock and what I needed was I needed a filler.

I needed a filler kind of content that I could just put up quickly when I didn't have

time to make anything more.

Substantial longer longer.

And so I came up with the Holy Nope and well that started to blow up.

Yeah people love the Holy Nope and what I realized was that when I would post this funny or shocking video

people would come in and they'd be introduced to me but then they'd stay for the substantial

stuff.

And so I realized I've got something here.

Oh you totally do because it's a great hook too.

If you guys haven't seen any of the videos it's it's it's you here in the Lord's Day we're going to you know

it'll open with you opening the Bible you sit down in the pew and then it's just some insanity that we have out there right now

in the Christian community or if you sometimes not even call it the Christian community of just a radical

preaching or antics on stage.

It's Nope.

You're right.

Shut the Bible and walk out.

And I just love it because the Nope resonates.

I've had that response before I even found you of just Nope I can't even deal with this right now.

This is so insane.

And in my thought going how do people attend these churches or listen to these you know pastors or preachers.

So I think there's a reason why it has resonated in millions and millions of views because it kind of gets to the heart of the issue of

the culture of the church culture we're living in right now.

Yeah it is relatable and it's very effective I think at opening up further conversations.

It is about why this is wrong.

And you know one of the greatest ways to to preach a truth is to contrast it against

the error.

And so that that's what the Holy Nope is doing in those short videos is exposing the error.

It opens up the conversation and I've had so many people reach out to me who have

grown up in these spiritually abusive environments.

Yeah.

Just just watching the videos and noping them along along with me is

almost like a healing process for them.

Yeah.

So I'm very thankful that the Lord is blessing it.

So what kind of content were you creating before to where this was just kind of a side accident.

I was theological apologetics kind of stuff.

I'm also an evangelist with Reformation Frontline Missions and so I also create content that is

more geared for the public proclamation of the gospel and equipping the church

to do that on the corporate level.

Yeah that's interesting.

So what's your story a little bit.

Did you grow up in the church.

Did you go through different denominations.

Have you always been in the reform camp.

I'm always interested to find out that little mini testimony of how you came to be.

Yeah.

So I was sprinkled actually as a baby that never meant anything to.

Me.

I grew up in the church and in youth group.

So hey now you're talking to a good reformed Presbyterian.

OK.

Well I didn't stick.

That's OK.

You're still in the covenant.

You had the blessings.

Right.

Yeah.

I ended up in the Christian Missionary Alliance which is not a reformed denomination though.

I landed there after I was converted and immediately started reforming.

But I was there I had connections there went to West Africa with them came back

continued reforming and just came to a place where we can no longer abide theologically nor

methodologically.

OK.

With it.

So we we we embrace the 1689 led my my family through that

and the.

Second best confession behind Westminster.

That's great.

Right.

It's a little more reform.

Oh I'm like I like you.

I like people who punch back.

All right.

So.

So you had that journey.

Now you got to tell me about how do you end up in West Africa.

Like how do you go.

That's where I'm going on missions and how did missions even come.

About.

Did you have a heart for that early on.

Or did you feel we're leading you there.

Yeah.

Well what happened there.

Yeah.

I began evangelizing pretty immediately after I was converted and my

wife is actually African.

OK.

She's that she's a white woman but she was she was born in the Congo because her missionaries have been I mean her parents have been missionaries

over there for 40 plus years.

And so she was actually going there planning to end up I think in like Sudan or something and then

she met me and I ruined all her plans.

So we got married.

We wanted to do that.

I felt like to do that prepared to do that and spent spent a couple years in Burkina Faso supporting a local church

going out into the bush to support village pastors by drilling wells

for them which was a great great testimony because in these these villages in the middle of nowhere

it's a largely Muslim kind of region.

And really when the Muslims have a well they won't share their water with the Christians.

OK.

So getting getting these these small church of believers a clean well

and they share that and they're able to preach Christ as you know the living water.

Yeah.

Which is really I got to imagine is the the the life spring of a community if you don't have drinking water

and then you come in and you provide drinking water.

I mean that's that's everything for a small community like that isn't.

It.

Yeah.

So.

So you did that.

And how long ago was that.

We got back 2017 from that.

OK.

Yeah.

So.

So now you're back in doing that.

You've got the tech tech stuff.

You've got you do apologetics just on tech tech or you know their social media platforms.

Well.

Yeah.

I mean we're on Facebook and Instagram as well.

We've moved away from your typical apologetics and are focusing on equipping the church for public

proclamation.

OK.

So. So.

So that's reformation frontline missions.

But the Holy Nope is on tick tock and Instagram and Facebook and YouTube.

Let me ask you said because this is becoming in the last year I've seen the term discernment

ministry like more than I have in the previous 30 years.

Do you get you get bugged by that term if someone were to call you.

Well if you do anything that kind of criticizes or you know critiques a ministry

that you're a discernment ministry.

You know I think Justin Peters would be like the one of the more popular ones.

And I just go where's it.

We just find these new terms that we just love.

Now people are picking on discernment ministries and can you be one and how do you consider yourself that or

no you put proclamation of the gospel is what you're doing.

I know I never considered myself as a discernment ministry or until

people started calling me that.

And I guess.

Oh no I just perpetuated.

It never entered.

He isn't a discernment ministry.

I mean what even is it.

I don't.

I don't.

But yeah I mean I guess I guess I am trying to equip believers to exercise

discernment.

Sure.

We shot.

We all should be in a little bit of a discernment ministry.

So yeah.

But yeah I think the main the main heart behind it all is the promotion of truth and the proclamation of the

gospel.

I just had somebody message me on Instagram just a couple of days ago that

the Lord has been performing them for the last several weeks and he chose to use my content

and they're they're leaving their Pentecostal church because they've seen all the error within and

they're reforming and so I'm following up with him sending him you know resources and things like that.

So I've said for many many years and many times on this podcast hardcore Pentecostalism is one of the greatest

evangelistic tools for Calvinist there is.

I came out of that.

I've met a lot of people who just went.

It went so far that I had to start actually removing traditions and reading the Bible and lo and behold I stumbled upon the doctrines of grace.

Really.

God is good then.

Yeah.

You know.

So you were a speaker here.

You spoke yesterday at this why Calvinism conference.

Can you just give the listeners a little five minute ten minute preview or five minute preview of what you talked about and what

kind of the subject was for those who couldn't attend.

Sure.

My text was first Peter chapter two verses six through ten.

And I think the main thesis is that our Calvinism

isn't anything that we need to be ashamed of in all of its its sharpness its rough edges.

I gave the illustration of an alligator that a man that a man bound up in order to remove the

threat of its claws and its teeth and my topic was Calvinism in the gospel.

And the issue today is that many even even those who call themselves reformed

want to feel like they need to take Calvinism out of the gospel in order to make it more palatable for

those who don't understand it or for those who are hostile against it.

And I think some some of that is a legitimate concern because there are so many

poor misrepresentations of biblical Calvinism out there.

But we need not be ashamed of the doctrine of the Bible of the gospel of the Bible as

Spurgeon called it in that quote.

And we need to understand especially from that text in first Peter that men are going to stumble over the

biblical gospel and we don't need to sharpen its edges and we don't need to be ashamed.

God is sovereign over those whom he has elected to his salvation and over those whom he has

appointed to doom with Christ being the stone set intentionally in their way for

them to stumble over.

He's sovereign.

And and so when we go and preach the gospel we know that there are many there are many

outcomes of that.

There are many responses to that.

And so the word of God proclaim the gospel of the Bible proclaimed is always effective

but it's not always effective for salvation.

Sometimes it's effective for the hardening of the sinner.

Sometimes it's effective to be that the Christ presented as

the stone over which men stumble and God is glorified in all of those outcomes of gospel

proclamation.

Yeah.

No that's good.

So when you I always like to ask this question to from someone who came from maybe a different view

and then came into reformed faith or Calvinistic view.

What was the what was the biggest change when when that theology changed for you.

Was it how you view God how you viewed yourself how to read the scripture.

What was it for you.

You know for me coming out of you know very legalistic when I was younger kind

of fundamentalism then into very Pentecostal a big pendulum swing and then in coming

into the doctrines of grace and reformed theology.

There was a lot of changes there for me on how I viewed God and myself things.

Was that similar for you or what was the biggest thing that changed for you.

You know I think it wasn't so much as a big change happening but just a very slow steady

reformation over time.

I realized I realized a few months after being converted that I was a Calvinist.

OK.

And I had been I had entered this missionary training school that was like a five month intensive program.

So we spent a week on Calvinism and Arminianism and we watched this video that was going through the five points.

And after that video I said hey that's that's what I believe.

Yeah.

Because that's what I've been reading in scripture.

I just I never.

I didn't have a name for it.

Yeah.

Of course I was.

I was given some dirty looks by my other classmates.

But so.

Wait a minute.

So the video was giving you the five points of Arminianism and Calvinism.

Just of Calvinism.

OK.

And how it was a response to Arminianism.

Why were they showing you that video before missions.

Because it was it was it was just a week.

It was like a topic.

Everything.

So it was kind of brushing up on everything.

Talking about salvation.

Right.

And so it was trying to give an unbiased look at here's you know what the Bible says

Arminianism.

And then and then here's Calvinism.

Oh you went.

Oh no that's Calvinist.

I was like hey.

Yeah.

So.

So then.

So that was that was pretty easy for me.

And then you know reforming in terms of ecclesiology I think was especially especially crucial

in my walk.

I I wanted to plant churches and then I realized that well I don't really know what the church

is.

Right.

And so.

So.

Yeah.

The Lord is faithful to to lead me through all of that.

Yeah I think conferences like this are good just because also too because of that response to

where I.

I tell people many times on this podcast you part of my testimony is I was a closeted Calvinist for eight years

walking around with this theology going I can't be one of those.

I grew up thinking those guys are heretics and right.

And then the Lord opening my eyes to church history and and you know going wait a minute we sing Amazing Grace

and John Newton was reformed women.

I grew up reading Pilgrim's Progress and he was reformed and wait a minute we have a Matthew Henry commentary and he was reformed and wait a

minute the greatest preacher sermon was preached by Jonathan.

He was reformed and wait a minute you know my pastor quoted you know all these guys and their reform

and going oh this is this isn't some little minority sect this is full rich church history

and all these things but people always giving me giving you kind of a side eye when you say reformed or Calvinism.

But then also realizing in times of trouble people are Calvinistic when they have an

unsaved loved one they're Calvinistic every funeral people become very Calvinistic.

Well the Lord has plans or Lord save him or you know what I mean.

Oh Lord help me through this time and take me out of it.

You really trust in his sovereignty in those times.

But then a lot of people give you a side eye when you say the C word and that kind of really sparked something

in me going OK do we need a marketing department for Calvinism because many of the

you know many of these people believe in these things but look at it as and I think

honestly I mean tell me if you agree I think the Western Christian church hasn't done us any favors and the

pastors haven't done us any favors and even church teaching church history and early fathers and things like that.

Yeah I think there's a that's tough when you have a guy that's been in church 30 years and outside of his two or three talking points he

can't tell you a lot about his own faith.

And we see that Catholicism as well to meet Catholics they don't even know their own dogma and you go do you understand

that this is what the pope is and oh I'm just a good Catholic I go to mass and you know and we have that kind of an

evangelicalism too within the Western church of they don't even know their own church history or Christology

or anything.

And I'm not saying that from a place of being condescending because believe me I don't know everything and nor do I say I do.

But but the passion needs to be there for us especially for those non reform non Calvinist to

bring them in and say look at we let's let's just look at this as a whole let's just remove the traditions read the word of God

and let's see where it takes us and nine times out of 10 it's going to take you into a reformed faith I find.

I think so.

I think you're right.

Are you kind of there too?

Well yeah I think an ignorance of church history is of course a great malady.

It keeps it keeps so many people just ignorant and

trapped in traditions and I think it.

I think it is one of the factors leading to the great plague of biblical illiteracy.

Yeah.

Today and but I think when we shrink back from using those terms like Calvinist even

though we get the side eyes and all of that then then we're not having the conversations and clear clarity is not being brought to the

issue and in the problem is perpetuated.

So I'm you know talk about fight or flight.

I'm more of a fight guy like let's let's just hash it out.

Right.

Let's get it clear.

Let's get offended if we need to and then reconcile and let's let's get through this thing.

Yeah.

I don't want to hide my Calvinism.

Oh no.

Not at all.

Look at I went through a cage stage as well and I think we should use theology as a scalpel and not a sledgehammer.

Right.

Sure.

In in the Lord sanctifies us and kind of brings us into wisdom and discernment as we grow.

And just to say to I'm not sitting here railing on pastors I'm not a pastor.

We had Tom Askew on the podcast and he said it.

We have all these issues.

Tom what's going on.

He goes.

Do you.

We had we've had Ted talks for the last 50 years in the pulpit.

He he squarely puts America's downfall right now on pastors in the American church

not preaching the gospel not evangelizing correctly not exegeting the word and I just went yeah there's pastors

out there that understand that they have a responsibility.

You know Ezekiel 37 being a shepherd is a very high calling

and unfortunately we treat pastors kind of like Oprah treats cars.

You're a pastor.

You're a pastor.

You get to be a pastor.

Yeah.

You know.

But I'm going to get on a soapbox.

So let's finish this up.

Tell everyone where they can find you.

I'll make sure we link everything up to and this goes live so they can just click on you find you but go and tell people where they can find you online.

And yeah you can find the Holy Note on Instagram and Tick Tock and Facebook and YouTube and

Twitter.

So everywhere.

And yeah.

Pretty pretty much everywhere.

So not LinkedIn though or anything like that.

No.

No LinkedIn.

Holy Nope. LinkedIn Corporation CEO.

Holy Nope. I love it.

Awesome.

Anytime you want to come back on.

Come back.

We get we get to you know in link discussion on the subject.

Your brother in law.

We love what you're doing.

And guys make sure you go check him out.

Follow him and check out some of the resources he has.

As always guys remember the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

We'll see you next time.

God bless.

Hey guys.

We're back here at the Y Calvinism conference in Tullahoma Tennessee.

Day three and having a having a good time.

Lots of fellowship.

Lots of great preaching.

And we have one of the speakers here with us.

He's been on the podcast before he was here last year.

Dr. Michael Schultz.

How are you sir.

I'm phenomenal.

How you doing Greg.

Good man.

I got to tell you just personally getting to know you a little bit more this weekend to just really

love your countenance.

Love how you view the word of God.

How you preach it.

And then even talking last night a little bit.

We're staying in the same house and getting to know you and your experiences and your wife a little bit more.

It's been a real blessing.

It's great talking with you guys.

I love although you guys stay up way too late.

You do.

I have to go to the house where you know we sleep.

It's separately.

I've got a separate house for sleeping because you guys stay up to three in morning and I just can't.

I can't run with you dogs.

But it's great to know you.

The first night I was up late that second night I was like guys I drove nine hours down here.

I had a you know 18 hour day yesterday.

I got to go to bed.

But some some of these guys man up all night talking about the Lord.

But you know when you're passionate about talking about those things to the time kind of flies especially when you get some when you get preachers in the

room that don't all necessarily agree on the same thing.

It's fun to watch them kind of you guys go back and forth.

But tell me a little bit about what you talked about at the conference.

Here.

Give us like a little five ten minute for those listeners who couldn't make the conference or who might not be able to

go through all the videos that are posted.

What was your subject and what did you get into.

So my my subject was Calvinism and the love of God.

Yeah.

And that's a that's a hot topic issue because many people both Calvinist and non believe that

God doesn't love everyone.

They believe that Calvinist specifically don't believe that God loves everyone.

And so that was something that I wanted to tackle from the position of a Calvinist but also looking at the Calvinist in our

community and addressing that as what I believe is an error.

And so my text was Mark 10 17 through 27 which is the rich young ruler.

And you see in that text that Jesus first of all he teaches total depravity which I'm not so bold as to say

Jesus was a Calvinist.

I don't like that terminology.

Right.

But he clearly believed in what we now call total depravity.

He taught that.

Later in that passage he talks about how that it's impossible for anybody to be saved without God intervening which we would

essentially say that's total depravity.

It also goes in with unconditional election and limited atonement and irresistibility of the spirit.

So there's there's so much there that we now call Calvinism.

But right in the middle of that text you have this.

Unfathomable unexpected love of God that's proclaimed for a man that is clearly lost who walks

away lost.

And so that was a big emphasis in the sermon was getting this across that even

though Jesus taught what we now teach as Calvinism in many ways and he

was emphatic with this man that he needed to repent that he needed to change his.

Life.

He still maintained that he loved him.

Yeah that Jesus Christ in the flesh God the man loved this lost man despite

his sin and whilst also calling him to repentance.

So that was the emphasis of the sermon that God does love but in loving he calls us to

repent.

So I think that's an important thing for us to carry forward that God does love and that love is specific in

calling us to repentance.

So are there are there two different kinds of love.

Because we live in a society especially in the English language event where someone can love their wife and they also love

pizza right.

And it's like what are we talking about here like love like there's so many such a wide range when we say love and we see

this also.

Well Jesus loves everyone.

Well well hold on what are we talking about there.

So are there different types of love.

Is there like a salvific love or say a familiar love.

Like what are we talking about there.

Yeah absolutely.

So there are theologically and historically we've Christians have identified the love of God as being

threefold.

We call it the benevolent love of God the beneficent love of God and the complacent love of God.

Those terms are somewhat antiquated.

You might not know what they mean right off the bat.

The benevolent love of God refers to God's disposition his his very being.

This is first John for God is love.

Obviously without anything to even express that love towards other than the Trinity God was already loving

the father loved the son the son loved the spirit the spirit loved the father so on and so forth.

So without ever creating anything God already was love.

Then you have the beneficent love of God that word we might associate it with benefit.

OK.

So this is the way that God pours love on individuals or things or creatures.

So think of Matthew 5.

God makes the sun to rise on the just and the unjust the rain to fall on the good and the wicked.

And in that passage he actually says so love your enemies so that you may become the sons of your father.

So Jesus is teaching us that God does love his enemies.

He loves the people that we we gather in other passages like Psalm 5 5.

God hates sinners.

God also loves the same person in a active way and a dispositional way.

The final love of God that complacency.

We might not use the word complacency that way anymore.

What we would call it is a love of satisfaction or a love of pleasure.

OK.

This love is reserved for the regenerated the church and this would be something

along the lines of without faith it is impossible to please God.

God cannot be pleased with you unless you are acting in faith.

Anything not done in faith is sin Paul says.

So God has a special love that he feels this pleasurable

satisfied love for the church but he has also this dispositional love that he feels towards everything indiscriminately

and an active love that he expresses towards also the good and the wicked indiscriminately.

That love does not necessarily mean that you will be saved as we see in Mark 10.

This guy walks away lost despite Jesus loving him.

So that's one big misunderstanding in the American church is the idea that if God loves you you'll be saved.

That's not the case.

God certainly loves individuals that will not be saved and we have a difficulty

understanding this Calvin and Mark his commentary of Mark 10 21 he says Jesus simultaneously loved and

hated this man and we have a hard time understanding.

That.

And the example that I use is if if you had a child who was a grown adult and they

fell into drug abuse and they wasted their life they ruined themselves they lost all their money they came to you you

tried to help them but what they did was they robbed you or they stole from you or they harmed you and it got to the point where you just said I can't I can't

help you anymore.

I can't even try to help you anymore because you have become a person.

I hate everything that you are.

You're you're a liar a thief and you're not the person that I've known my whole.

Life.

I hate everything that you are.

But nevertheless they're your child and you'll always love them.

Yeah.

Even though you'd say I love you but I hate everything that you are and we

understand that but we have a difficult we have a hard

time admitting that God can also love and hate an individual at the exact same time.

Yeah.

But I think it's perfectly biblical and logical to say yes God loves and hates individuals

at the same time.

Yeah.

So what would you say if you're if I'm playing devil's advocate and you have someone that comes up and maybe they're just asking

simple questions and they say something like well if if God truly loved them

then why wouldn't he love them with the salvific love to save them.

Is it really love if it's not going as far to save them from their sins.

Do we get back into a doctrine of election there on that answer.

What would you say to someone that might say that.

I'll put you on the spot but I think you can handle it.

That's a great question and it is a question that will come and probably in the comment section.

This is this is one of the things.

What should God love most supremely.

What should God love most.

What should he love with the with the highest regard.

God should love himself the most.

God should love his own goodness the most.

He should love his own purity.

And with all that God should love his own glory the most.

So if you say why if God loves these people why doesn't he love them savingly.

God has decided of his own goodwill that this is getting into Romans 9 Kevin Hayes

message.

God has decided of his own goodwill that it is somehow more glorifying to him

to express wrath on some individuals and in loving his own glory he

has chosen rightly to glorify himself by expressing his

wrath.

So when we say if God loves them why doesn't he save them.

What we're saying is God should love them more than he loves his own glory.

And that's that's simply a problem of the human the human experience.

Yeah.

God should love us more than he loves himself.

God should love us more than he loves his glory.

That's simply not the case.

So if God loves you but he does not save you he does not save you because he has of his own goodwill chosen to

express his glory by by exercising wrath on you.

And that does bring him glory which he loves.

But from the perspective of the person being damned we say I don't like that answer.

Yeah.

Well then Romans 9.

No.

Yeah.

No.

And I talked I've talked about that before that was a turning point for me as someone who always thought I

deserved the truth and I deserve an answer and you know from other people and seeking after it.

And then in my early 20s coming to Romans 9 and I'm going oh finally Paul's going to answer it.

Well if some are vessels of wrath and some are vessels of glory like why does he find fault.

And the answer was you don't get to ask God that because you're the clay.

You're not the potter.

And I went oh wow that's that's the high view of God that I have to really hurt my pride

in a good way though.

Right.

Toward on the flesh it goes.

And many people don't like that answer.

They don't like the going well you don't get to ask that.

And we don't like it as children when when the parent lovingly says no that's not for you or you don't get to do that.

What does our flesh do.

Right.

As children we rate through a temper tantrum and I feel like sometimes it took.

Me.

I was throwing a theological temper tantrum at God.

Well you have to tell me why.

Right.

And we have all these reasons why and we get in you know all that.

But I feel that very high view of God and when I say that I even misunderstood having a high

view of God early in in my days of understanding OK I'm I'm reformed and Calvinistic and

just thinking oh you just think he's very powerful.

Well no having the high view of God that he's ultimate just like you said that that you hold his

glory in such high esteem that you can understand that God has to love his glory more than he can love that

sinner.

And that's the right thing to do.

Right.

It's not a choice it's not arbitrary it's not that he's choosing to love himself more than us.

It's the correct thing.

Right.

What is the chief end of man.

To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

That's the purpose for which we were created.

Yeah.

And it's the right thing.

That's the right thing to create humans for to glorify him because he deserves.

It.

Yeah.

It's not arbitrary.

That's right.

I just I find it it's really tough for a lot of believers though who have sit who have sat in churches under Ted talks

for 10 or 20 years and you know I'm kind of being a little derogatory but I've seen it over and over that we

don't that we don't get into this deepness of God and wrestle with those things and we go

through life.

And they could very well they're saved I believe that but they have a very mis they

have a construed view of who God is his character and it just breaks my heart.

And I'm not saying this from a place of like pride or condescending.

You know believe me I don't have everything figured out but but whatever the Lord revealed to me in

understanding how low I am and how high and beautiful and righteous and holy and just he is

it's it's it's a it's a life changing event.

It just shifts your paradigm and how you view everything.

And I think that's why this conference is important.

What you speak on is important probably I would say one of the harder subjects because boy

is that the number one objection I get if if my kind of theology comes up oh you well you guys believe

that God just just loves a few people and hates everyone else.

I mean that is the go -to that and the robot right.

We all get that just all robots and and it's so sad because it's it's it's so much deeper

and richer and ingrained in the Word of God than that.

So I do appreciate you being part of this conference to and delivering that word.

I didn't get to listen to all of it.

I've told people I'm in and out and I'm hosting and doing things.

I'm glad it's being recorded and the listeners here you guys I'll make sure I share it on our pages when Jeff gets all

the videos up so you can go back and watch those and I'm gonna make sure I go back and watch yours too because this isn't

something to you know kind of puff you up but I had multiple people come up to me.

Oh that's when you should have been in the whole thing that was unbelievable so the Lord used you in a powerful

way to to preach on that and other than that what else you got going on as we finish up here.

What are you doing.

Are you online anywhere can people find you I mean what do you got coming up.

I know you pastor.

And that keeps you busy.

But what's going on.

Yeah so I don't.

I don't social media much.

I'm not on Twitter I have an Instagram.

But it's stagnant.

Man.

Yeah right I just say I I feel like I don't have that much to say honestly.

And what I do have to say isn't very good.

So you know you know I disagree but it doesn't need to be you know kept forever.

People don't really need to be hearing Michael Schultz for generations to come.

It's my opinion.

But plug your wife's book if.

You don't mind because I'm gonna link that up because we were talking last.

Night.

That is very interesting.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

So my wife's name is storm Schultz just like the weather storm Schultz and she writes mostly

young adult Christian fiction but she recently published a book called joy and it's just storm Schultz

joy and what it is is a book that's written from the perspective of a Christian to

other Christian mothers in particular who have experienced the loss of a child and the book is

specifically about the experience of trying to conceive or having

another child after having lost one.

Okay because we we had we've we've lost two children and after the

first loss the child that we've named Noah we had a conception and

they call it a rainbow baby and the child we named Fiona joy and so that was

sort of that homage to that that this was our our joy comes in the morning.

Sure because there are so many women who have lost and they don't know how to move forward.

They are scared to get pregnant and and when they do they're scared the entire pregnancy and they

they just want everything to go well they it's it's a very difficult thing.

So I love this book.

I think that any woman who has ever experienced loss will greatly benefit from it.

It's written from the heart of somebody who's been there and I think I think you'd greatly benefit from it from a Christian

perspective showing how that God can work in that and how that he is still good.

And if I can before we before we stop I just want to say to the men I've not written any book from this because there's there's

an absence there.

Most men who experienced miscarriage they just become very quiet about it.

Yeah.

But when we found out that our that Noah had passed in the womb we had to go to a larger

hospital to get confirmation and then schedule a DNC and the

pregnancy health center that we were at that told us that the child was gone.

They gave us a gift card to a gas station so we could get gas and go to the hospital.

And as I was pumping gas I remember standing there by my car and the words that came into my head were this is the

day that the Lord has made.

I will rejoice and be glad in it.

And I remember thinking that is such a weird thing for me to be thinking right now because my child just died.

Yeah.

But this this is the truth that in the fiercest pain that we ever experience in the in the lowest moments

of our lives this is still the day that the Lord has made.

I'll rejoice and be glad in it.

And we must keep our eyes upon Jesus he is always there in the darkness with us.

And so mothers or fathers that have lost their children.

I love you.

My heart goes out to you.

I pray you will pick up a copy of that book joy.

You can find it online for free.

You don't have to purchase it.

It's it's electronically available online.

But I obviously would would really appreciate you purchasing my way.

Sure because that that helps her number one.

It helps her to write more.

But it also we want to get that book into pregnancy health centers and places where women might experience this and be going through that

and that sort of funds that as well that she can get author copies at a lower rate but it still cost her.

So we want to get that out to women as much as we can.

So I would really appreciate anybody going.

Through that that's awesome.

And then the the young adult fiction.

What are the age.

Ranges for that I have some daughters that are yeah.

So this is a big gap in Christian young adult fiction.

They're always looking for something good.

That's right.

So most of the stuff that she writes is aimed at 10 to 14.

Well let me say 10 to 16 year olds.

Okay.

Because there's a big life change that occurs when you're 16.

You get that driver's license.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden the world is your oyster.

You know.

Yeah.

But for the kids between between 10 and 16 you're you're going through puberty.

You're awkward you're weird and your parents don't know what to do with you.

Because you're not the kid that they've raised this whole time.

You're very different.

You don't particularly like them anymore because they're not cool.

And that's an awkward age.

Yeah.

And so you're starting to get into dating maybe and and some of these things that are new.

And so she writes that there she's got one that's a romantic comedy called meant to be she's

got another one that just came out that's more aimed at young adults in that age range called hey Jude

Carpenter.

So she she's really good.

I think of course I'm biased but I think that kids in that age range as well as adults and

parents that can just look at their kids and go.

Yeah.

That's that's exactly what they're going through.

Yeah.

I think that it's really good stuff.

So yeah meant to be hey Jude Carpenter and joy by storm Schultz.

Awesome storm.

Schultz cool.

We'll link everything up guys for you.

Listening you can on this episode whether it's you're watching on YouTube or getting on your podcast

site it'll be linked up.

Such a blessing to hang out with you man and just fellowship with you and hear you speak and get to know you a little bit more.

Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you Greg.

I can officially say you're my.

Favorite Presbyterian.

All right.

That's good coming from you.

That's a lot guys.

Thanks so much for listening to another episode of dead men walking podcast.

We're gonna push these all together.

You've probably heard a couple other speakers on this episode but this one will be the one we button it up with.

As always remember the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

God bless.

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