June 27, 2022 Show with David J. Engelsma on “Federal Vision: Heresy at the Root”

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Is it Monday? Yes, it's Monday on this 27th day of June, 2022, and I'm thrilled to have a returning guest who is not only one of my favorite guests to interview, but apparently he is a favorite guest of quite a growing number of listeners to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

His name is David J. Engelsma, who is an author and was professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan, and emeritus professor since the

Synod of 2008. He was the editor of the Standard Bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002, and a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the

British Isles on behalf of the British Reform Fellowship, which is devoted to the spread and defense of the

Reformed faith in the United Kingdom. Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial issue, federal vision heresy at the root, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Professor David J.

Engelsma. Chris, it's good to be back with you, and you're a significant program.

Well, Professor Engelsma, if you could define for us federal vision and discuss, let us know why this system of theology has created such alarm in your mind and heart that you knew that you had to write a book on this subject, subtitled

Heresy at the Root. The federal vision is a doctrine of the covenant that has surfaced recently in the most conservative

Presbyterian and Reformed churches in North America. It is a doctrine concerning the covenant, as the term federal indicates.

Federal derives from the Latin fetus, which means covenant, so that, according to the teachers of this theology, their doctrine is the doctrine of the covenant.

It's the doctrine of the covenant that maintains that the covenant of God with human beings is conditional for its efficacy and the salvation that it brings.

It's dependent upon the faith and life of good works of the sinner.

So this doctrine introduces into the Reformed churches in North America a teaching that, by the admission of the theologians themselves who are responsible for this doctrine, a teaching that denies all of the doctrines of grace as confessed by the

Canons of Dort and by the Westminster Confession of Faith and the

Westminster Catechisms. It is not my charge, but it is the admission of the theologians themselves who teach this theology that the federal vision denies total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and especially, this is their emphasis, the preservation of the saints.

And also, by their own admission, this theology called the federal vision denies justification by faith alone as taught by the

Reformation of the 16th century and as is embodied in the Reformed standards, the

Reformed creeds. It teaches, specifically does the federal vision, that God makes his covenant with every baptized person.

God establishes his covenant of salvation with every baptized person at the instant that the water of baptism is poured upon the head, especially of the children of believers.

The covenant is established with that child and established in such a way that God bestows his saving grace upon that child.

The child is saved with the administration of the sacrament of baptism.

The child begins to partake of the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ. That's a form of baptismal regeneration, by the way.

But in any case, whether the child continues to be saved and continues to receive the blessings of salvation, and whether that child will be saved one day in the coming of Jesus Christ depends upon what the child will do.

The covenant of God they maintain is conditional. It depends upon the child's continuing in faith and in obedience.

So that is possible, and in fact a reality according to the federal vision, that many of those in whom

God begins the work of salvation lose that salvation because of their failing to fulfill the conditions of the covenant and go lost after all.

It's the most serious heresy in the conservative Presbyterian and Reformed churches since the time of the

Reformation, in my judgment. Now what makes this issue more confusing to me, and perhaps to everybody, is that it does not appear to be monolithic.

I don't know of any one standard creed or confession that is uniquely federal vision that would establish a unified belief system amongst all of them.

For instance, I know personally people who claim to be federal vision who would claim that they do not deny justification by faith alone, and any of the other points of Calvinism that you enumerated and explained and defined, they would say, and I'm talking about the people that I know, that when a person is baptized in the name of the

Trinity, they are incorporated into the new covenant. They are to be called

Christian, but they would say that does not mean that they are of the elect nor are regenerate.

They would say that those that are truly of the elect and regenerate will not lose their salvation, but people will be cut off from the new covenant just as they were in the old covenant, which the

Abrahamic covenant was not only comprised of elect individuals. So it seems that they are making nearly an identical application of the old covenant with the new.

So, I mean, have you heard those explanations or defenses by people in the federal vision yourself, or is this just me hearing this from folks?

There are variations among the people who are regarded and who regard themselves as disciples of the theology of the federal vision, but with regard to the outstanding teacher of the doctrine and as expressed in a quasi -official confessional statement, the

Auburn Avenue Confession some years ago, the principal aspects of the theology of the federal vision are the same with regard to all of the outstanding teachers of it.

And I'm referring now to a man like Norman Shepard, who opened up this theology in the

OPC, and Richard Gaffin and Douglas Wilson and John Frame and Lilbeck, all of the outstanding teachers and theologians who are regarded as the representatives and purveyors of the federal vision, would agree that in baptism there is an actual saving relationship established between God and the baptized person.

And now we're talking mainly in the Presbyterian and Reformed churches of the baptized infants of believing parents.

They are not introduced only into the sphere of the covenant where they will receive covenant instruction, but they receive

God's salvation in Jesus Christ. And I could quote, and I do quote in the book

I wrote on this subject, Federal Vision Heresy at the Root, I could quote extensively the leaders of the theology of the federal vision that at baptism a saving relationship is established between God and the baptized infant so that all those who are baptized begin, that's an important word in their theology, begin to receive the saving benefits of Jesus Christ.

But that whether they retain those saving benefits and are actually saved depends upon their fulfilling the condition of faith and obedience.

So the people that you're describing and I have not come across such people myself, and they may be laymen who are not as well instructed in this theology as our others, are mistaken when they confess that they embrace the federal vision, at least with regard to its main tenets.

Either they are ignorant or they, and I'm not speaking pejoratively now, they don't know as much about the theology of the federal vision as they should, or they're mistaking it.

But I think what illustrates the truth of what I'm saying is that, oddly enough, one of the favorite doctrines of all the leading representatives of the federal vision theology is that those who begin to be saved can fall away.

There is an open, explicit, emphatic denial of the perseverance of the saints.

All of the leading representatives of the federal vision insist that it's possible to begin to have the saving benefits of Jesus Christ and to lose them by failing to produce the conditions of faith and obedience.

And they accuse the Reformation of erring in this regard.

They are not timid people. They are bold. They are not nearly as difficult to follow as some who dissent from the

Reformed truth show themselves to be. They're quite open and explicit. And in the book that I've written,

The Federal Vision, Heresy at the Root, I quote extensively from the leading representatives to substantiate the charges that I'm making right now on your radio broadcast.

Maybe to clarify a few things, Norman Shepard, who, as you stated earlier, was an

Orthodox Presbyterian minister, he was charged with heresy and he, as a result, resigned from his post at Westminster Theological Seminary back in the late 70s,

I believe. And to my knowledge, he no longer remained an

Orthodox Presbyterian pastor. Am I understanding that correctly? You are, but the

OPC did not acquit itself honorably in the matter of Norman Shepard.

For six or seven years, Norman Shepard was teaching the maintenance of his federal vision theology as a professor at Westminster Seminary.

And they were aware of this. His colleagues were aware of this and took no action. And finally, as I recall, a layman began to lodge charges against him.

And at that time, Shepard also wrote his book exposing his theology,

The Call of Grace, and instead of disciplining him, as is the proper

Presbyterian way of handling false doctrine, he was allowed to resign from the faculty of Westminster Seminary and to escape to the embrace of the

Christian Reformed Church, where he is today, as far as I know. In connection with what you raised, a layman, a couple of laymen, raised charges against one of Shepard's disciples at about the same time, a

Norman Kinnaird. And the General Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church acquitted

Kinnaird of the charge of heresy against him in regard to this matter of the federal vision.

So the OPC, for all its reputation of orthodoxy and soundness, did not take hold of such an open attack upon the doctrines of the

Westminster standards as the Reformed denomination and the Presbyterian denomination is called to do.

Allowing a heretical man to resign is not proper in the

Presbyterian procedure and organization. I do also want to state that Doug Wilson came on this program perhaps a year or so ago, might be longer.

He said that he has disavowed his relationship with the federal vision system.

And I know that there have been people who have opposed federal vision who don't think he has made that clear enough and the break clear enough.

But I'm just going by his profession of what he said. And so I just wanted to make those things clear because to avoid unnecessary emails coming in with comments and questions and so on.

I can say that what my guest,

Professor Engelsma, has alleged about the federal vision seems to be very clear, at least with some of the folks that I know personally who claim and are recognized as a part of the, at least the formation of this camp, although I don't think it was ever clear that they were unanimous in their beliefs about everything.

But my friend, Steve Schlissel, who I still consider him a friend, but we have parted company very seriously on this issue.

And he actually participated in a debate on my program years ago when

I was still broadcasting out of Long Island, New York with my other friend,

John Otis. John Otis, who wrote a book called

Danger in the Camp. And this book was a refutation of federal vision teaching.

And it was very clear during that debate that Steve was no longer embracing the concept of justification by faith alone.

In fact, one of the things he kept repeating throughout the debate, which unfortunately was cut short because Steve arrived at the studio very late due to a traffic situation.

But he kept repeating and demanding from John Otis to defend justification by faith alone from the scriptures.

And for some reason, he kept insisting without using the book of Galatians and Romans.

I guess he figured that if it was a clearly biblical teaching, it would have been in more books than those two epistles.

But so this is just to affirm that at least on the count of sola fide, justification by faith alone, it was clear that at least this one representative of federal vision agrees with what my guest is saying.

Now, could this be rightly understood as hyper covenantalism?

You yourself are a Pato Baptist, but obviously you disagree with the concept that children who are baptized are automatically, by virtue of that baptism, placed in the covenant.

Am I assuming correctly? You are, and now you have penetrated to the very root of the doctrine of the federal visionist as their name, not applied to them from the outside, but adopted by themselves and advertised by themselves.

Federal vision indicates the very root of their theology. And as I said before,

I judge their theology to be the denial of the doctrines of grace as taught in the

Westminster standards and in the canons of Dort. The root of their theology is a certain covenant doctrine.

Their covenant doctrine is connected with, although not expressive of, the truth that God has extended the command to be baptized to the children of believers.

The teaching of the federal vision is that covenant of God with the children of believers extends the saving grace of God to every child of believing parents.

That indicates that the theology of the federal vision denies that election controls and determines salvation in the sphere of the covenant.

That's an important point. One that they themselves would acknowledge to be a truthful criticism or judgment upon their covenant doctrine.

Election does not govern salvation in the covenant, according to the federal visionist, in the covenant that is with regard to all the children of believing parents, there is salvation at the moment of the water baptism of those children, which is not the expression of the election, the saving election of that children and the salvation of those children eternally, many are saved, or at least have the beginning of salvation at baptism who will not be saved eternally.

God's sovereign eternal election does not govern the salvation of those children in the sphere of the covenant, but in the covenant, that is the extension of salvation to the children of believers, all the children without exception begin to enjoy the salvation of Christ, as I've said before, can lose that by failing to fulfill the condition of faith and the condition of good works that flow from faith.

So there's a distinct covenant doctrine involved here. One that is really not peculiar to the federal visionist, but one that has found a place in the sphere of reform theology in the past, there have been two visions of the covenant in reform theology, stemming back to the reformation itself.

One is that the covenant is controlled by the condition of faith and obedience of the children themselves, that those elements, those activities determine salvation in the covenant.

According to that covenant view, the covenant is conditional. It's extended to all the children, in fact, all who are baptized without exception, but that covenant is conditional.

It depends upon the faith and obedience of the baptized children. The other covenant view, which has a pedigree in the reform tradition, is that the covenant is unconditional.

It's controlled by election. God gives the covenant, establishes the covenant to the believer, believing parents, and to their elect children, to the

Jacob's among them and not to the Esau's, to refer to Romans chapter nine.

In that connection, in view of covenant that's controlled by election, as Romans nine says, all salvation is controlled by election, has its root in election.

The covenant with the elect children of believing parents is unconditional, does not depend upon the children, upon their faith and upon their obedience, but it depends upon the electing grace, the sovereign particular electing grace of God himself.

And that establishes that everyone with whom God begins the work of salvation shall also be saved everlastingly in the end.

That too is a covenant doctrine that has placed in the reformed and Presbyterian tradition, now that I mentioned the

Presbyterian tradition, I can refer to, I think it's question 31 of the Westminster Larger Catechism, the

Presbyterian Creed, which asks the question, with whom does God establish the covenant, and the answer is,

I'm quoting accurately, but roughly, with Christ and all the elect in him. So when

I speak of appearance, the presence of the doctrine that election controls the covenant and covenant salvation that's found in the reformed tradition, for example, in the

Westminster Larger Catechism, that's the covenant position, the doctrine of the covenant embraced and confessed and fought for by the

Protestant Reformed Churches, of which I am a member and by myself personally.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to submit a question to Professor David J.

Engelsma on the federal vision, our email address is chrisarendsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a church that teaches federal vision and you have grown to become increasingly uncomfortable with that and you don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point.

I can understand that. You might even be a pastor and your fellow elders are believing in this system of theology known as the federal vision and you do not share their opinion and you don't want to identify yourself.

Things like that, I can understand, would warrant you remain anonymous. But please, if it's just a general question, please provide your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

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This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned in, our guest today for the entire program is

David J. Engelsma, Professor Emeritus over at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan.

And we are discussing a very controversial theme, Federal Vision, Heresy at the Root, which is the title of a book he has written on this subject.

We do have a listener who is a faithful listener of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

His name is Donald Philip Veitch. I typically don't mention the full names of those that submit questions, but he is in the

Communion of Reformed Anglicans, and he has been very instrumental in spreading word about this program and operates a

Facebook page called Twist House, T -W -I -S -S -E. So I hope that our listeners will look up that Facebook page and make use of it.

But let's see here. I'm looking for... I just had it in front of me. Okay. Donald Veitch says,

A question for this esteemed Reformed Professor Engelsma. Professor Engelsma, as a retired sailor with many years at sea, trying to get my sea legs here on Federal Vision, where is this manifesting in terms of denominations or seminaries?

Who and where? And what writers are advancing this? I'll stop there because he has a number of questions, and I'll give you time to answer the first before I move on.

Is his question where he can find this doctrine taught? Basically, he's speaking specifically of denominations, seminaries, and authors.

Yes. The false doctrine surfaced first at the

Westminster Theological Seminary, closely connected with the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

A theologian at that seminary was Norman Shepard, and he was teaching the Federal Vision. And he was brought up on charges of which he was acquitted, and then he resigned his position at that seminary.

And soon after he brought to light these teachings called the

Federal Vision, there were a couple of ecclesiastical cases that were brought in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church with regard to this doctrine. So, nor was the doctrine ever soundly condemned by the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And, in fact, one of the leading theologians who retired honorably from that denomination,

Richard Gaffin, defended Shepard and the elder who was brought up on charges.

Therefore, there is reason to fear that, at the very least, the Federal Vision theology is still tolerated in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Then the PCA, the Presbyterian Church of America, or in America, had this controversy going on with the

Federal Vision. And the outcome of that controversy also was not that the

Federal Vision was soundly and emphatically condemned. So it was found in the

Presbyterian Church in America as well. Douglas Wilson has a denomination of churches.

I forget the title of the denomination, but I would insist that, regardless of his distancing of himself from the more extreme

Federal Visionists, he still espouses that doctrine so that it would be found in his denomination as well.

Those are the denominations and the theologians that come to mind. Okay, well, he also says, this is

Donald Veech, a so -called bishop, Ray Sutton of the

Reformed Episcopal Church, once huffed and puffed on it, and he's run off to baptismal regeneration and other liturgical indecencies.

I write at a Reformed, Dortrechtarian, Cranmerian prayer book man.

I think he meant to say, I write as a Reformed, Dortrechtarian, Cranmerian prayer book man.

Upshot, help me get my sea legs in these heavy seas. I guess that means help him better understand this.

He also wants to just let you know a couple of things that should encourage you. P .S.,

I started reading Protestant Reformed Theological Journal and Standard Bearer, best regards, and let us maintain course and bearing until death.

May I pass on to that dear brother my blessings. It's always encouraging to hear from somebody who is aware of the

Protestant Reformed Churches, who does not have ferocious charges against us, but offers some support.

Ray Sutton was a name that escaped my memory. He also has been on the fringes of the federal vision, theology, and circles.

Well, thank you, Donald. By the way, you have some good news here. If you send us your full mailing address, you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing by my guest,

David J. Ingelsma, Federal Vision, Heresy at the Root. So please give us your full mailing address.

And the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, will ship that out to you as soon as possible.

We also have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says, my closest friends in the

Christian faith are Presbyterians. It seems that even those that are not only outside of federal vision, but also join you in condemning federal vision as heresy, have a different understanding of baptism and the covenant than you do.

They reject baptismal regeneration, but share the opinion of the federal visionists that when a baby is baptized, they are placed in the covenant, whether they are of the elect or not.

And when they prove themselves to be unregenerate by acting in such a way that it would be clear they are rebels against God, they will be disciplined or excommunicated, but not because they have lost their salvation, but because they just have proven that they are not yet regenerate.

Does this not add to the great confusion about even Presbyterians and other paedo -baptists in general?

You seem, as Protestant reformed Christians, to have a unique view that baptism does not automatically place a child into the covenant.

The question that demands to be answered in connection with that question put to me is, what is the covenant?

It sounds to me as though the questioner is referring to what I would call the sphere of the covenant or church membership.

That, of course, I would agree with. And there's something special about that, also distinguishing such a person from a heathen who is outside the church and never hears the gospel.

But the question that demands to be answered in regard to that question is, what is the covenant?

And it's my conviction that the Bible identifies the covenant as the living relationship of friendship between God and one of his elect children in Jesus Christ.

Baptism does not, may I say, automatically insert one into that living relationship with Jesus Christ, that is the covenant of grace.

Baptism introduces one into the sphere of the covenant, where he is exposed to the teachings about salvation in Jesus Christ, but he is not, by baptism, united to Jesus Christ in what is the bond of the covenant of grace.

It sounds to me as though the questioner is referring to what I would describe as the sphere of the covenant.

The covenant is described in Holy Scripture repeatedly as the union of the church and her members with Jesus Christ as a saving relationship.

I will be your God and you will be my people. Especially important in answering the question that I posed in response to the question is

Galatians chapter 3, where the apostle identifies the covenant promise that God will be the

God of his people as a promise made to Jesus Christ and to the elect in Jesus Christ.

The promise of the covenant is to Abraham's seed, the apostle teaches there, and then specifies and identifies the seed of Abraham as Jesus Christ.

It goes on at the end of the third chapter to insist that the promise of the covenant and the covenant itself, therefore, are to Christ and to all those who are in Christ by faith.

The members of the covenant, therefore, are Christ as the head of the covenant and all of the elect whom

God has given to Jesus Christ, and who know themselves as members of the covenant by faith.

That union with Christ is established by God and not automatically in the sacrament of baptism, but by the saving work of the

Holy Spirit whenever it pleases God to do that. So, the answer to that question requires that we describe the covenant itself correctly and take note of the fact that the promise of the covenant that one will be a member of Jesus Christ is restricted to election, and as far as the knowledge of that relationship is concerned, to faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, well, as a Reformed Baptist, I amen your definition of the covenant, and Reformed Baptists certainly only would disagree with you in those areas around the proper candidates for baptism.

We believe that someone must be of an age where they can give a credible profession of repentance and faith before we baptize them, and by the way, depending upon what congregation you're in, that does include children, but not infants, because obviously an infant can't do that.

But I agree with the anonymous listener in that most of my

Pado -Baptist friends, and I'm talking about cherished, beloved friends that I've known for decades, who also reject federal vision, do have, it seems, a strangely similar understanding of the covenant as far as it automatically placing a child truly into the covenant.

That's why I stated that the root of the issue of the federal vision is the doctrine of the covenant.

There are many Reformed people, not Reformed Baptists now, but Reformed people who practice infant baptism, and I'm talking about Presbyterians as well, whose view of the covenant really is that God establishes his covenant of grace with every children without exception, and that that covenant is conditional for its fulfillment and realization, depends upon the child's believing as a condition of salvation when that child comes to years.

And that's the reason why the federal vision cannot find powerful opposition in many

Reformed and Presbyterian theologians and many Reformed and Presbyterian churches.

These churches share the covenant doctrine of the federal vision, and the federal vision then, in reality, is only the carrying out the implications of the covenant doctrine that makes the covenant conditional.

In fact, that's what they claim. Those that I know in the federal vision actually say they are bringing historic

Presbyterianism to its logical conclusion. There they are right, and that's why their opposition, the opposition to the federal vision is limited, and where there is some opposition, it's very weak and timid and hesitating.

In fact, they would say the same thing about infant communion. They would think that they are bringing the whole understanding of the covenant to its logical conclusion by including infants at the

Lord's table. That's another subject. But you do not practice that.

We do not practice infant or child communion, no. We require confession of faith, knowledge of the salient elements of the gospel, and confession of faith concerning those doctrines before we admit children of believers to the

Lord's table. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and it is a longer than normal break in the middle of the show.

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

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Before I return to my guest, Professor David J. Engelsma on our discussion on the federal vision,

Heresy at the Root, I just have a couple more announcements to make. Folks, if you really love this show and you do not want it to disappear,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And since I just finished asking our listeners to submit a request for advertising, if they'd like to advertise,

I do want to have you briefly describe an advertiser in our daily program, ignited by the word magazine, since you are indeed the one that first put me into contact with them, and they have been sponsoring

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio for nearly a year. Their annual contract is right around the corner to be renewed, and God willing it will be.

But tell us about this magazine. Ignited by the word is a recent magazine put out by protestant reformed people to instruct and edify children and young people.

It's devoted to the young people of the church and of the churches, with various articles by different authors and some appropriate pictures.

It's a distinctive, virtually a unique magazine for Christian and particularly reformed young people and older children.

I highly recommend it. It's a brave venture and it's making its way.

And the website is ignitedbytheword .org, ignitedbytheword .org. I hope that all of you listening will subscribe to that magazine, remembering that doing so, especially when you let the publishers know that you heard they're at an

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, that will help further ensure that they will continue advertising with us.

So, and I do know that one listener, faithful listener in Findlay, Ohio informed me just a few days ago that she subscribed to Ignited by the

Word for her grandchildren. So I want to thank you very much for doing that. We have

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, the first person

I ever had a conversation with, who later professed to be a part of the federal vision movement, because when this conversation took place, it was not even in existence to my awareness.

He was actually challenging the notion of sola scriptura.

He was saying that the church does things all the time that the

Bible could not authenticate, such as making Sunday the day of the

Sabbath and other things. Is a denial of sola scriptura, according to your knowledge, any kind of a central theme amongst federal visionists, or was this just one individual spouting his opinion?

I am not aware of a quasi -authoritative denial of scripture alone by any of the leading federal vision men, but they are so radical in their reappraisal of the

Christian faith as set forth in the Presbyterian and Reformed standards, that I would not grow a white hair if I heard that they now were denying scripture alone.

All of the truths of the Bible hang together, and to take hold of a biblical strand at any one point unravels the whole scheme of scriptural truth.

But I do admit, I do acknowledge that I have not been aware of,

I'm not aware of any explicit denial of sola scriptura by the leading men of the federal vision.

Well, thank you, C .J. You've also won a free copy of the book we are addressing by David J.

Engelsma, which is Federal Vision Heresy at the Root, and you will receive that by the generosity of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that out to you if we get your full mailing address. But, of course, you'll also be getting it through the generosity of Reformed Free Publishing Association, who provided a limited number of copies of these books to give away to listeners who submit questions today.

And I'll give the publisher a plug as well, rfpa .org

is their website, rfpa, for Reformed Free Publishing Association, rfpa .org.

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania says,

Do you believe in infant communion, and if not, why not?

The federal visionists seem to be making a logical point in their acceptance of it, since they are also

Paedo -Baptists. That question reminds me of a reliable report

I received some time ago that Douglas Wilson took his very young grandchild in his arms, not older than a couple of years, maybe not that old, and put some communion bread in his mouth to advertise the insistence of the federal vision men that their infant children, virtually infant children, should partake of the

Lord's Supper as well as be a recipient of the sacrament of holy baptism.

So the questioner certainly has that right, that the theology of the federal vision now, or always, allows for infant communion.

The Reformed position, the Presbyterian position is that the infants of believing parents are to be baptized because God reveals in holy scripture that he extends his covenant salvation to the children of believers.

The covenant is established with believers and with their children, and just as the male infant children were circumcised in the old covenant, the children of believers ought to be baptized in the new covenant.

With regard to the matter of infant salvation, it's always important to us to take note of the fact that John the

Baptist leaped for joy at the presence of Christ in his mother's womb. But the sacrament of the

Lord's Supper or communion is different. The Bible itself makes plain that the sacrament of the

Supper is for those who believe and for those who confess their faith in Jesus Christ.

So there's a difference in the administration of the two sacraments. That is the

Reformed and Presbyterian position. Infant baptism does not necessarily require infant communion.

Well, thank you, Joseph, and if you give us your full mailing address, you will also receive a free copy of the book on Federal Vision, Heresy at the

Root by our guest, compliments of cvbbs .com and compliments of Reformed Free Publishing Association.

We have, let's see, Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says,

One thing that I could never wrap my head around is why conservative, biblically faithful, thoroughly

Protestant paedo -baptists accept, for the most part, infant baptism when someone converts to Presbyterianism.

Do you? And isn't this a part of the whole problem you're discussing? Questions why we baptize a convert?

Do I have that right? No. Unless I left something out of the question.

The listener, Bobby, wants to know why most Presbyterians accept

Catholic baptism. Perhaps I left out the word Catholic by mistake. Roman Catholic.

And that's also puzzled me. I have done some programs on this. I have even had

Presbyterians on the program that reject Catholic baptism. And I know that J.

H. Thornwell, a greatly beloved Presbyterian hero of the 19th century, rejected it and had written on it.

And it is puzzling when every

Presbyterian I know who is conservative and thoroughly Protestant, they will say that a baptism must be conducted when there is at least one believing parent.

But when you have a Roman Catholic baptism, you have two people who are not truly believers if they accept the heresy of the

Council of Trent, or if they're just nominal believers, like many Roman Catholics are. So you don't have any or either parent being a believer, and yet that baptism is accepted as valid just because it was conducted in the name of the

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But if you could continue on your own thoughts on that. First of all,

I respect highly Thornwell, so his judgments on matters I do not dismiss lightly.

But with regard to the question itself, the Reformed position, the Reformed faith historically has this position with regard to the baptism of those whom we may even suppose that they are unbelievers, because the validity of baptism does not depend upon the sanctity and orthodoxy of the person administering the sacrament.

There are three requirements for a valid baptism in the Reformed position. First, it must be performed by one who is in office.

Second, it must be performed or administered in the name of the Triune God. And thirdly, it must consist of the sprinkling or pouring of water.

If those three criteria are met, the baptism is a valid baptism in the judgment of the

Reformed faith. Now, that's interesting because you would reject the office of a

Roman Catholic priest, so why would that still be acceptable to you? Formally, the office is present.

He's an official representative of the

Church, has official position in the Church. I acknowledge that I fully appreciate the objections to Roman Catholic baptism, but I'm stating the position of Reformed Christianity and Presbyterian Christianity on that matter.

It's not the personal godliness or orthodoxy of the one who administers the sacrament, but simply that he holds office in the

Church. Okay. Well, I perhaps not only invite my listeners to hear the program on J.

H. Thornwell that I conducted, but perhaps even you,

Professor Engelsman, might want to listen to that, because his argument is actually that the right that the

Church of Rome performs on the infants or converts is not even the same thing.

It's not even the same sacrament. It involves things like circumcision, the prayers to saints, the fact that the child is being baptized into the

Catholic Church, and the belief in baptismal regeneration is attached, and other things.

The use of oil in addition to water. You know, I could go on and on, actually, but it is quite a fascinating book that Thornwell wrote on the issue.

And by the way, Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, you have also won a free copy of the book,

Federal Vision Heresy at the Root by David J. Engelsman. Make sure we get your full mailing address.

Before I go on to any more listener questions, please summarize the reasons why you think this is such a dangerous issue.

In our day and age, the most prevalent problem,

I think, amongst even conservative evangelicals and even professedly theologically reformed individuals is that differences of opinion on theology, if they do not deny the deity of Christ and the

Trinity and the inerrancy of Scripture, other issues seem to fall to the wayside as being less important.

Hence, the rise of ecumenism with Roman Catholics. They see no reason to reject them as our brethren and allies in the fight against immorality and other things, the atrocity of abortion and so on.

They look for as many allies as they can claim, and in doing so, go too far, in my opinion, and adopt them as brothers and sisters.

What is your major concern? Why is this so dangerous?

The theology of the federal vision denies the gospel, denies the gospel of grace.

That certainly is a fundamental issue. In fact, the deity of Jesus, the cross of Jesus Christ are all at stake in the issue of the rejection of the gospel of grace as that rejection takes form in the theology of the federal vision.

On their own admission, the federal visionists deny the five doctrines so -called of Calvinism, TULIP.

And I would rather put it, the federal vision theology rejects and denies the gospel of grace as confessed by the

Synod of Dort as the Canons of Dort in 1618 and 1619.

And the content of the Canons of Dort, that Reformed Confession, which is really also found in the

Westminster Confession of Faith, is the gospel, the good news of salvation by grace alone.

The federal vision denies all of those five outstanding fundamental doctrines or truths that salvation is by the grace of God and by the grace of God alone.

With that, again on their own admission, the federal visionists deny justification by faith alone, which is the very heart of the gospel of grace.

Our sins are forgiven and we are righteous in Christ by believing in Jesus Christ and by believing in Jesus Christ alone.

Certainly to everybody, the matter of salvation, what salvation is and how salvation is accomplished is a fundamental issue.

So we're not exaggerating the significance of this controversy, this error in the sphere of the

Reformed churches. That leads me to a second observation with regard to the importance of this issue.

This error, this false doctrine is found not in the Roman Catholic Church or in the liberal churches out there somewhere, but this is a threat to the gospel of salvation within the most conservative

Reformed and Presbyterian churches in the world. This is found in the

OPC and this is found in the PCA and this is found in other churches that have a name for Reformed orthodoxy.

So the danger is at hand and the danger must be exposed and the danger must be resisted.

There isn't much exposure or resistance. So I and the

Protestant Reformed churches suppose that it's our calling from God to wage spiritual warfare against this particular error.

And because it has its root, does this doctrine of the federal vision and the doctrine of the covenant, which is the truth that is found in and developed by the

Reformed churches mainly, it's our calling to lay bare the root of the heresy of the federal vision and the unconditional covenant and then positively to confess and explain the truth of the unconditional covenant of grace, which is governed by God's sovereign election accompanied by God's equally sovereign reprobation.

I might note here with your permission that the federal vision theology is closely related, as everyone who's aware of these things acknowledges, it's related to the new perspective on Paul, a theology that's associated with the name of, oh no, it slips me.

Yes, the Anglican. N .T. Wright. Yes, right. Yeah, in fact,

I was working years ago and getting a debate established with N .T. Wright and somehow slipped through the cracks.

I may try to do that again, actually. N .T. Wright is an enormously popular and influential theologian, a very winsome presenter of his theology.

But N .T. Wright is the leader in the movement that teaches boldly that the

Reformation got it wrong with regard to justification by faith alone. Nothing, if not bold, but obviously an attack upon the truth of justification by faith alone.

Yes, was it not one of his main points that Paul was only rebuking the

Judaizers for making the Christian church an exclusively Jewish club, as it were, and that the adding of works to faith for salvation had nothing to do with his charge to the

Galatians? Isn't that somewhere in the area of what Wright was saying? Yes, that's exactly what

Wright was saying. Justification by faith alone doesn't have anything to do with salvation or legal standing with Christ, but admission into the church.

It's really ecclesiology and not soteriology. And you and your listeners might be interested to know that a few years ago,

I attended a public meeting at a denominational auditorium, which I will not mention, which

Wright taught a whole day on the Book of Romans. And from beginning to end, from nine o 'clock in the morning until four o 'clock in the afternoon, he systematically denied every main doctrine taught in the

Book of Romans, openly and admittedly, from total depravity through the atonement of Christ, and certainly, emphatically, the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

He did not do it with deceit. He was open, but very winsome.

There were some 400 theologians there from all over North America and even from other parts of the world.

When he was done with what I regarded and what actually was an attack, a wholesale attack on all the doctrines of grace as taught in the

Book of Romans, if there were 400 theologians there, very well -known theologians, many of them as well, 398 stood up and gave him a rousing applause.

Two of us remained seated in our demonstration of displeasure. And I mentioned that to show, as a concrete example, how influential

N. T. Wright is in spreading what is essentially also the doctrine of the federal vision.

There has to be resistance to this attack on and denial of the gospel of God's gracious salvation, the matter of the

Reformation of the 16th century, as a matter of fact. In fact, N. T. Wright has another bizarre view that I heard come out of his own mouth when a liberal was interviewing him, a liberal who denied the resurrection of Christ.

N. T. Wright was defending the resurrection of Christ, thankfully, but in order to defend

Christ as being the first fruits of the resurrection, he denied the bodily resurrection or raising from the dead of Lazarus.

And he said the reason why Christ told them to remove the stone, even though he was warned that Lazarus would stink, is because he knew

Lazarus wouldn't stink because he wasn't dead. So I'd never heard anybody say that before until I heard

N. T. Wright utter that. He's innovative. Well, we have to go to our final break right now.

It's going to be more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We will be right back with David J. Ingelsma right after these messages. So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org.

That's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions. How do you make your savings last?

How much should you take out and when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?

Art Amundsen, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.

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That's edwardjones .com or call 717 -258 -4688, 717 -258 -4688.

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundsen, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Call 717 -258 -4688 today. As a mother,

I was looking for a magazine that would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school and had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves or I could walk them through.

There's tiered content so that you can go to the older group and learn more or go to a younger section and it's even more simple.

Join us on our journey in developing our magazine entitled Ignited by the Word, which engages and ignites the hearts of our children and young people in their walk with God.

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Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free and put good literature in your children's hands.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Attention all men in ministry leadership. You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me,

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002, 631 -291 -7002, or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com,

ironsharpensironradio .com. This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, hoping to see you

Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, for Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

And I hope to see as many of you who are men in ministry leadership at that wonderful event,

God willing, that will be taking place on Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. in Loisville, Pennsylvania, and send me an email if you'd like to register.

It's free of charge. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And this is always conducted in tribute to, in honor of, and in loving memory of, my precious late wife,

Julie, who began these Pastors Luncheons all the way back in the 1990s.

And I continue them to this day after she is going home to glory with Christ.

And I hope that you will attend. And I also want to take this opportunity to thank the

Reformed Free Publishing Association to, every year, being one of those generous publishers that donates enough copies of each title

I select from them, that they provide enough that every man in attendance can go home with one of those books.

And they are typically books by Professor David J. Engelsman. So I want to thank rfpa .org

for their generosity every year in doing that, along with many other publishers. We have

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, do you see the federal vision on the rise, or is it in decline?

I would say it's advancing itself partly by virtue of the fact that it has gotten out of the spotlight.

It was under scrutiny in the past because of the ecclesiastical cases that it occasioned.

And now that heat is off, or the light is off, and it's vigorously promoting itself and having influence more widely than ever before.

The men of the federal vision are talented writers, and their books are popular and spreading, and they also advance their cause by their lectures, so that I would say it's on the rise.

It's not diminishing, but advancing. And playing into that is that there isn't the sharp criticism and condemnation of the doctrine that there ought to be.

They issue their challenges, and there are few that rise to take up their challenges and to refute their doctrines.

Now what do you attribute the attraction to in the federal vision?

All I know is whenever I have a conversation with a federal visionist,

I walk away with two things in my head. One is, I am more confused now than I was before he gave his explanation.

And number two, I always walk away thinking this is frighteningly close to the

Council of Trent and its understanding on justification. Even if you obviously remove other things that Roman Catholics do, like pray to saints and pray to relics and statues and icons and venerate them and all those kinds of things, which the federal visionists do not do, the whole issue of salvation seems eerily too close to Rome for my comfort.

But what is the draw to this? I agree with you that the doctrine of the federal visionists, specifically with regard to justification, is essentially the same as the doctrine of Rome with regard to justification.

The issue is that which Luther contended for in the 16th century, and that reformed creeds have expressed, especially in the

Westminster Standards and in the Canons of Dort. The federal vision is

Arminianism with regard to the doctrine of the covenant, as long as it's understood that the doctrine of the covenant embraces all of the doctrines of grace.

So the question is really, why is Arminianism so popular? Why is the vast majority of professing

Christianity Arminian, teaching that salvation depends upon some act of the sinner?

And the answer, first of all, is the popularity of teaching that salvation depends upon the sinner.

That's always the popular misrepresentation of the truth of the gospel.

We are in the driver's seat. God is dependent upon us. He begins salvation and evidently would like to continue salvation in the case of many, but salvation depends upon our fulfilling the conditions that are basic to salvation.

And in connection with that, the gospel of grace has an adversary, a mighty adversary, who is always contending with doctrines that glorify

God and advancing doctrines that glorify the sinner. So my answer to the question is the popularity of Arminianism explains the popularity of the federal vision.

And if you don't have more questions that are demanding to be answered, in which case

I'll waive this request, may I have your permission to read a brief statement by one of the leading federal visionists?

Oh, definitely. Go ahead. That will illustrate what we've been talking about. This is a statement of faith by a

Steve Wilkins, a leading figure in the federal vision movement, a Presbyterian.

You'll find this statement in his book and the book of others he co -authored, Auburn Avenue Theology.

I quote, Those who ultimately prove to be reprobate may be in covenant with God.

They may enjoy for a season the blessings of the covenant, including the forgiveness of sins, adoption, possession of the kingdom, sanctification, et cetera, and yet apostatize and fall short of the grace of God.

Now what follows is his emphasis. The apostate doesn't forfeit apparent blessings that were never his in reality, but real blessings that were his in covenant with God.

That teaches that salvation or the federal visionist, which is enjoyed by everyone who is baptized, are saving blessings and that one can fall away from real salvation to being damned forever.

He doesn't forfeit apparent blessings, but real blessings that were his in covenant with God. Wow.

And the explanation of all of that is that he's in covenant with God, just as you and I are.

I don't know what effect that has on you, but it terrifies me. Yeah. What hope is that?

I know myself as a sinner. As far as my abilities are concerned, I could fall away as soon as I hang up this telephone and I'd have to live in the terror that my present election becomes reprobation, my present faith becomes unbelief, and I lose the blessings of salvation.

That's a terrifying doctrine. Oh yeah. In fact, in a debate with Roman Catholics, my friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has said that the only peace so -called that Rome offers is not the perfect peace and shalom that the gospel truly gives, but it's only a ceasefire.

You're only temporarily at some kind of a ceasefire in your war against God, and then all of a sudden it could erupt at any second.

So it really gives no peace or hope, really. No, there isn't. Only terror, and the reformed faith doctrine of the preservation of the saints is the opposite.

Yes, and also the thing that seems to come to the surface in having conversations with federal visionists is that they seem to want so badly to believe and teach that those with fruitless lives, those that do not repent and do not do good deeds and live lives of obedience, that they will go to hell and they refuse to embrace the biblical teaching.

That is true, but only because they are giving evidence that they're not regenerate.

They seem to want to make them a cause of continued regeneration and membership in the covenant rather than just fruit evidence and so on.

And would that be something that you see in here? It's always a charge against reformed

Christianity, the gospel of grace already in the Bible, that it makes men careless and profane.

That's the fear. Shall we sin freely, therefore, since we're justified by faith is the question the apostle poses in Romans.

The truth of the matter is that whom God justifies by grace alone, he also sanctifies.

He makes us thankful so that that fear that the gospel of grace is going to make us careless and profane is mistaken.

And do you have any final thoughts before we run out of time here today? We've got about a minute left for you. I appreciate your taking up this controversial issue and giving me the opportunity to discuss with you the issues involved in the federal vision controversy.

Thank you for that, Chris. Oh, it's my pleasure, and I want to remind all of our listeners who submitted questions that if you haven't already sent in your mailing address, please do so because you have all won a free copy of the book that we have been addressing,

Federal Vision, Heresy of the Root by David J. Engelsma, and those will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

and we thank Reformed Free Publishing Association for providing these copies of this book to us to give away.

And once again, their website is rfpa .org, R -F for Reformed Free, P -A for Publishing Association .org.

Well, I want to thank you so much, Professor Engelsma, for being our guest today, and I also want to give our listeners the good news that at an undetermined date, likely in August, Professor Engelsma, God willing, will be returning to the program to represent the amillennial position in an eight -day marathon that I am in the process of arranging where each of those eight days we have a different representative of a different eschatological view, and the reason

I have eight days is that at least three of those days will be with different representatives of postmillennialism because they have very different views on what that exactly means.

But so I will keep you updated as to the dates of that eight -day marathon and also specifically when

Professor Engelsma will be back. And do you care to mention anything about your two -volume work on amillennialism?

I have written two volumes on eschatology. The first volume has been devoted, is devoted to the subject of the millennium, promoting the amillennial view and critiquing the postmillennial and premillennial views.

The second volume is at the printer and will be out in a few weeks, and that will take up all of the other main subjects of eschatology, including the

Great Tribulation, the Antichrist, the second coming of Jesus itself, the

Resurrection, the Final Judgment, and more. Great. Well, I'm looking forward to getting both of those volumes.

I have volume one, and I'm looking forward to reading them. I want to thank you again, Professor Engelsma, for doing such a superb job.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I hope that you all tune in tomorrow, and I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater