June 27, 2022 Show with David J. Engelsma on “Federal Vision: Heresy at the Root”

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Wishing you all a happy Monday. Is it Monday. Yes, it's one day on this 27th day of June 2022 and I'm thrilled to have a returning guest who is not only one of my favorite guests to interview, but apparently he is a favorite guest of Quite a growing number of listeners to iron sharpens iron radio.

His name is David J angles ma who is an author and was professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years a Protestant Reformed seminary in Granville, Michigan an emeritus professor. Since the Synod of 2008 he was the editor of the standard-bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002 and a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the British Isles on behalf of the British Reformed Fellowship.

Which is devoted to the spread and defense of the Reformed faith in the United Kingdom today? We're going to be addressing a very controversial issue Federal vision heresy at the root and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Professor David J angles ma. Well professor angles ma if you could.

Defining Federal Vision and Why It Matters

Define for us federal vision and Discuss. Let us know why this. This system of theology has created such alarm in your mind and heart That you knew that you had to write a book on this subject subtitled heresy at the root.

Rebaptized person at the instant that the water of baptism is poured upon the head especially of the children of believers. Established with begins to partake of the saving grace of God in Jesus form of baptismal.

Regeneration. By the way, but in any case. Whether the child continues to be saved and continues to receive the blessings of salvation. Saved one day and the coming of Jesus Christ. God. They maintain is conditional.

It depends upon the child's continuing in faith to the federal vision whom God begins the work of salvation. Lose that salvation. Because of their failing to fulfill the conditions of the covenant and reformed churches since the time of the Reformation.

My judgment now what makes this issue More confusing to me and perhaps to everybody. Yeah, is that it does not appear to be monolithic? I don't know of any one Standard creed or confession that is uniquely federal vision that would establish a Unified belief system amongst all of them.

For instance. I know personally people who claim to be federal vision that would not. Who would claim that they do not? Deny justification by faith alone and any of the other points of Calvinism that you enumerated and explained and defined.

They would say and I'm talking about the people that I know That When a person is baptized in the name of the Trinity They are incorporated in to the new covenant. They are to be called Christian, but they would say that does not mean that they are of the elect Nor are regenerate.

They would say that those that are truly of the elect and regenerate Will not lose their salvation but people will be cut off from the New Covenant just as they were in the Old Covenant Which the Abrahamic Covenant was not?

Only comprised of elect individuals, so it seems that they are making nearly an Identical application of the Old Covenant with the new so I mean have you heard? those Explanations or defenses by people in the federal vision yourself or is this just me hearing this from folks.

They are not introduced only between God and the Baptist with regard to its main tenets. Either they are ignorant or they pejoratively now They don't know as much about the theology of the federal vision as they should.

Or they're mistaking it in theology as be saved can fall away possible to begin to have Saving benefits of them by failing to produce the conditions of faith and obedience for themselves to be. They're quite Open and explicit that I'm making right now.

Maybe to clarify a few things Norman Shepard who as you stated earlier was an Orthodox Presbyterian minister he was. He was charged with heresy and He as a result resigned from his post at Westminster Theological seminary back in the late 70s.

I believe and To my knowledge you no longer remained in an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor. Am I my.

Understanding that correctly same time a Norman Kinnaird Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church acquitted in regard to this matter of the federal vision The OPC I do also want to state that Doug Wilson.

Came on this program Perhaps a year or so ago might be longer. He said that he has disavowed his relationship with the federal vision system, and I know that there have been people on Who have opposed federal vision who don't think he has made that clear enough and the break clear enough but I just I'm just going by his profession of what he said and So I just wanted to make those things clear because I to avoid unnecessary emails coming in With with comments and questions and so on.

I can say That What my guest professor angles my has has alleged about the federal vision seems to be Very clear at least with some of the folks that I know personally Who claim and are recognized as a part of the at least the formation of this camp?

Although I don't think it was ever clear that they were unanimous in their beliefs about everything. But my friend Steve Schlissel Who I can still consider him a friend, but we have parted company very seriously on this issue and he actually participated in a debate on my program years ago when I was still broadcasting out of Long Island, New York With my other friend John Otis John Otis who wrote a book called danger in the camp and This book was a refutation of federal vision teaching and It was very clear during that debate that Steve was no longer embracing the concept of justification by faith alone.

In Fact one of the things he kept repeating Throughout the debate which in short Unfortunately was cut short because Steve arrived at the studio very late due to a traffic situation. But he kept repeating and demanding from John Otis to defend Justification by faith alone.

From the scriptures and for some reason he kept insisting without using The book of Galatians and Romans I Guess he figured that if it was a clearly biblical teaching it would have been in more books than those two epistles, but so this is this is just to affirm that at least on the count of Sola fide justification by faith alone.

It was clear that at least this one representative of federal vision Agrees with what my guest is saying now could this be rightly understood as hyper Covenantalism you yourself are a pedo-baptist. But obviously you disagree with the concept that children who are baptized are Automatically by virtue of that baptism placed in the Covenant.

Am I assuming correctly?

Stemming back to the Reformation itself form tradition is that the Covenant is Unconditional the Covenant them and not to the Esau's to refer to Romans chapter 9 Acting grace of God himself, but begins the work of salvation shall also be saved Everlastingly in the end.

Doctrine that has formed in Presbyterian tradition I can refer to. I think it's question 31 of the Westminster larger catechism and Creed with whom does God Establish the Covenant. And the putting accurately but roughly with Christ and all the elect in him doctrine that election controls the Covenant and Covenant salvation form tradition for example in the Westminster larger catechism.

That's the Covenant position the doctrine of the Covenant embraced and confessed and fought for by the Protestant Reformed Churches Of which I am a member and by myself personally.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to submit a question to professor David J. Engelsma on the federal vision Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state And your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are in a church That teaches federal vision and you have grown to become increasingly uncomfortable with that.

And you don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point. I can understand that you might even be a pastor and your fellow elders are believing in this System of theology known as the federal vision and you do not share their opinion and you don't want to identify yourself.

Things like that I could understand would warrant you remain anonymous, but please if it's just a general question Please provide your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back right after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson if you just tuned in. Our guest today for the entire program is David J angles ma Professor emeritus over at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan and We are discussing a very controversial theme Federal vision heresy at the root, which is the title of a book he has written on this subject.

We do have a listener who is a faithful Listener of iron sharpens iron radio. His name is Donald Philip Veatch. I typically don't mention the full names of those that submit questions but he is in the Communion of Reformed Anglicans and He has been very instrumental in Spreading word about this program and operates a Facebook page called twist house TWI SSE.

So I hope that our listeners will look up that Facebook page and make use of it. But let's see here I'm looking for. I just had it in front of me, okay. Donald Veatch Says a question for this esteemed reformed professor angles.

My professor angles month as a retired Sailor with many years at sea trying to get my sea legs here on better federal vision. Where is this manifesting in terms of denominations or seminaries? Who and where.

And What writers are advancing this. I'll stop there because he has a number of questions and I'll I'll give you time to answer the questions first before I move on.

It's his question where he can find this doctrine taught.

Basically, he's speaking specifically of denominations seminaries and authors.

Yes.

Okay, well he also says This is Donald Veatch a so-called bishop Ray Sutton of the Reformed Episcopal Church. Once huffed and puffed on it and he's run off to baptismal regeneration and other liturgical indecencies.

I write at a reformed Dortrecht arian cranmerian prayer book. Man, I Think he meant to say I write as a reformed doc Dortrecht arian cranmerian prayer book man. Upshot helped me get my sea legs in these heavy seas.

I guess that means help him better understand this. He also wants to just let you know a couple of things that should encourage you. PS I Started reading Protestant Reformed Theological Journal and standard-bearer.

Best regards. And let us maintain course and bearing until death.

Well, thank you Donald. By the way, you have some good news here.

If you send us your full mailing address. You have won a free copy of the book. We are addressing by my guest David J. Inglesmere federal vision heresy at the root, so please Give us your full mailing address and the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com.

We'll ship that out to you as soon as possible. We also have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says my closest friends in the Christian faith are Presbyterians, it seems that even those that are not only outside of federal vision, but also join you in condemning federal vision as heresy have a different understanding of Baptism and the Covenant than you do.

They reject baptismal regeneration. But share the opinion of the federal visionists that when a baby is baptized they are placed in the Covenant whether they are of the elect or not and when they prove themselves.

To be unregenerate by acting in such a way that it would be clear. They are rebels against God. They will be disciplined or excommunicated but not because they have lost their salvation. But because they just have proven that they are not yet regenerate.

Does this not add to the great confusion? About even Presbyterians and other pato Baptists in general you seem as Protestant Reformed Christians to have a unique view that baptism does not automatically place a child into the Covenant.

What is the cover? Yeah, it's my conviction. May I say is to all those who are in Christ by faith? Therefore Christ is the head of the Covenant by faith.

Yes, well as a Reformed Baptist, I amen your definition of the Covenant and Reformed Baptists certainly only would disagree with You in those areas around the candidates the proper candidates. For baptism, we believe that someone must be of an age where they can give a credible profession of repentance and faith Before we baptize them and by the way that Depending upon what congregation you're in that does include children but not infants because obviously an infant can't do that, but I agree with the anonymous listener in that most of my Pato Baptist friends and I'm talking about cherished beloved friends that I've known for decades Who also Reject federal vision do have it seems a strangely Similar understanding of the Covenant as far as it automatically placing a child truly into the Covenant.

There are many Reformed people. In fact, that's what they claim.

Those that I know in the federal vision actually say they are bringing.

Historic Presbyterianism to its logical conclusion. In fact, I would say the same thing about infant communion.

They would think that that they are bringing the whole Understanding of the Covenant to its logical conclusion by including infants at the Lord's table. But you do not practice that.

We do not practice. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now and it is a longer than normal break in the.

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