Beckwith/George Ecumenical Dialogue

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

The Gospel, Ecumenism, and the Problem of Definitional Christianity

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. We have busied out the lines because today we begin a series where I will be playing the entirety of the discussion between Timothy George and Frank Beckwith that took place up at Wheaton Just recently and I do so not because I want to be ever more popular Because there are a few things will be less popular than having to address this particular subject but because the subject is in fact the gospel of Jesus Christ and unfortunately the clarity of that gospel the nature of that gospel was not promoted and Added to by this conversation, but was further muddled because of the ecumenical spirit of the conversation and I want to just dive right into it.

I'll be playing all of it stopping starting commenting as things are said and The very first minute in fact, I think it's less than 30 seconds is Where the train goes off the track and never gets back on it from that point?

But I'll be starting with the moderator Who asks a question of the gentleman? And of course, they're sitting in nice fluffy chairs with flowers and it's you know, another one of those wonderful situations that I have no intention of ever being involved with myself, but Nor would they ever invite me to do so but be it as it may he asks a question about this concept of being an evangelical Catholic and The first question went to Timothy George.

And like I said, that's where the train went off the track. Let's listen. Well, let's begin by.

Defining terms. Timothy How do you understand the designation? Catholic evangelical. Well first let me say it's great to be here and to be here with my friend Frank Beckwith. He and I have had this conversation before.

This is not the first time we've done it and maybe not the last time we'll do it and we have a great respect for one another and friendship with one another and beyond that I think a sense of solidarity as brothers in Jesus Christ.

So there you go took about 30 seconds for the the groundwork to be laid and I want to make everyone understand and I remember Timothy George part of the evangelicals and Catholics together. He's he's you know, he's an ecumenist and so we are not at all shocked that he takes an ecumenical perspective.

But we need to understand what this means. I don't think you have to start off by saying I'm glad to be here. And I'm glad to have an opportunity to talk with the apostate going to hell. Frank Beckwith.

You don't have to do that. You don't have to judge the man's soul. But once you make the statement he's just made what you have just said to everybody listening is That anything else we discuss is not definitional of the Christian faith.

We can talk about justification by faith until we're blue in the face. We can talk about imputation versus infusion. We can talk about all these things. One thing they're never going to talk about is the death of Christ and the mass and transubstantiation atonement never comes up.

What does that mean that means it's not definitional it's something that we can know we can talk about and we can sit around and and in fact, he's he's going to be asked a question later on an Opportunity a softball throw one of those floating fastballs over the middle of the plate that you can take right out of the park if you want to and His response is going to be to tell a story.

About how they used to go over to this one Roman Catholics apartment in New York City and Sort of get buzzed on drinking and smoking and talking about Converting each other back and forth and it was just enough that if I had hair I would have pulled it out.

That's what ecumenism does but that the point is to hear this. Once you've made the positive statement, hey, you know, we're just you know. We're all part of the big Christendom and we're all brothers and sisters in Christ and That means all this stuff where I'm going to talk about well, you know, I I just have a different view I have a different opinion.

What that means is all those things he's gonna talk about when he does talk about well the sufficiency of Scripture. Just becomes well my opinion is and you have this other opinion and when we talk about justification well, my opinion is and there's these other opinions and the result is the gospel becomes a matter of opinion and You know what?

A lot of folks don't want to hinge their eternity on somebody's stinking opinion and that's why they want a greater authority and. So they turn to Rome and of course the Roman Catholic apologist who's gonna be taking a much more strident and historical position than Frank Beckwith will and in fact, I really I If someone knows of this I'd like to hear about it, but I wonder where the Catholic apologists are in responding to Beckwith's anemic Catholicism.

Where are they? Why won't they ever come out? I mean they some of them will come out about certain liberal bishops. But where are they? Why won't why won't they discuss these things. I Maybe they're out there if there is let me know I haven't heard any and I would think that just simply on the basis of fundamental consistency.

You'd have to address some of these things but so right off the bat. You don't have to start off the dialogue by saying and this man over here is lost to going to hell. But once you say what was just said you have just now pushed into the realm of it doesn't actually Make a difference in eternity everything else you're gonna be talking about and You can sit there and say it's important till the cows come home.

It's not important enough to change what the gospel is and how a man's made right before God is it? Evidently not and that of course is the very essence of The compromise the gospel that is a humanism.

That's what the compromise the gospel. It is ECT the gift of salvation all that stuff Makes the gospel a matter of human opinion rather than divine revelation. That's why I can't go there. That's why I'll never go there and That's why when I see people going there who once said otherwise it is so.

Desperately sad and so I want to start with that affirmation and also thank Wheaton College in the center and you Chris For helping us to focus some of these questions and discussions tonight now my background is Weird.

I am a Southern Baptist one of the most conservative hidebound denominations in America perhaps and I grew up in what sociologists of religion would call a kind of really Sectarian group what we knew we were going to heaven.

We weren't sure about the Methodist and the Pentecostals and the Catholics were beyond the pale to use a good Irish term however as a young fellow. Coming into the church and reading the Bible. I had a desire to talk to other people.

And I would call the Catholic priest on the telephone. I may have been eight or ten years old I don't remember and say to him, you know, what do you all believe? Why aren't you coming to the Baptist Church?

And he usually put up with me for a little while. But that was kind of my introduction to ecumenism and I came to understand that there were people who had very different understandings of the Christian faith than I did and why did they Hold these views and that was kind of the way I got into all of this.

Now the question that you pose is what does it mean to be a Catholic evangelical? That's how I would describe myself as a Catholic Evangelical. Well an evangelical is someone who stands within the continuity of the gospel.

John Stott gave the best definition. I have ever heard to what is an evangelical. He said evangelicals are gospel people and they're Bible people now. I don't know many Catholics who'd want to deny that there are gospel people and Bible people but there's a sense in which Evangelicals understand those terms and live out those commitments in continuity with the Protestant Reformation.

Let me just comment at that point there are a lot of people wondering these days when evangelical is and Given that the term has been abused and and stretched so far That in my opinion it is it is pretty much useless any longer.

I mean if you no longer believe that the evangel is Definable so that Rome's gospel can be identified as a false gospel and that's they can't do that. Then why even talk about evangelicalism? When when modalists non-trinitarians are evangelicals when people who Don't think you should talk about repentance or faith or sin or or the wrath of God are evangelicals.

What does the word mean anymore that really is the question now historically there was a gospel that defined evangelicalism and it was a biblical gospel, but once you get into the squishy modern era where the Evangel is much more of a feeling than it is a defined message of what God has done in Jesus Christ.

I I really wonder how useful the term is any longer, but at least historically and and especially within the context of the evangelical theological society as Dr. Beckwith will bring up because he was once president of that There was an understanding of what an evangelical was.

If you're new to this situation You're listening to the big bad meanie guy who brought the Beckwith Reversion to public notice and So, I'm just one of those terrible horrible people and I'm you know, don't have a heart and all the rest that stuff.

And called for Frank Beckwith to step down which he did and I think he did the right thing. Even though he continues to say today He doesn't really feel like he should have done that in the sense that He he did it because he didn't want to cause problems the ETS.

But that he felt that he could continue in the ETS given the ETS his statement of faith. Well as I pointed out at the time I've only been to one ETS meeting. I presented a paper in 1998. I did not enjoy my time there the attitude of many not all but many that I saw there was one of non servanthood toward the church of academic hubris and academic pride and I I didn't enjoy that and I Obviously don't view the Academy in the same way that many academics do.

But be that as it may I was in the plenary session When dr. Roger Nicole was asked as one of the founding members to answer a question from the audience. About why the statement of faith said the Bible and the Bible alone.

That's what's in the statement of faith and Dr. Nicole rather elderly man tall sort of bent over shuffled up to the microphone leaned over and simply said because we didn't want any Roman Catholics in the organization and turned around went back to his seat and Everyone was taken aback.

But it is a given it cannot be argued that as Roger Nicole testified at that time That's the Evangelical Theological Society was set up for people other than Roman Catholics. It was for Evangelical scholars and so in their mind Evangelical and Roman Catholic were not the same things and Timothy George gonna say well, you know.

Things have changed. You know, the liberalism is waning in the sense that the mainline denominations are disappearing because they have no message. They have no hope they're just nothing but religious social clubs and and they're dinosaurs and they're vanishing away as is a good and proper thing.

And and and Rome has changed too. Yeah, well, I would agree Rome is changing. There's there's no question in Rome is changing. What a a believing Roman Catholic believed 200 years ago and what a Believing Roman Catholics believe today may be very similar.

But especially amongst the very leaders of the church. It may be very very very different. There is no question in my mind what the great Popes of the medieval period believed in regards to Jews and heretics.

Today. What the Popes believe about that who knows there seems to be a great deal of inclusivism. Even universalism amongst many Roman Catholic leaders and theologians. The myth of the unity of Rome is just that it is a myth.

It is a lie. It does not exist anyone who takes the time to go up to Boston College and listen to some theology professor. Oh, well, they don't define things. Well, who does is the question and so. Has Rome changed?

Yeah. So, what does that mean? Well, that means that Rome's claim of infallibility is simply laughable. I Mean if you can just redefine things so that she remains quote-unquote infallible while Radically altering the teachings that she's putting forth then she needs just come out and say, you know what?

We're not infallible. We're just one group and you know, we greatly value the traditions we have but you know. We've we've rethought a lot of these things and and and we really sort of feel that. That's a lot of these things are no longer, you know, we don't believe the same things we once did but that's the one Act of honesty that only takes place behind closed doors and doesn't make it into official paper pronouncements and things like that and so Rome has changed.

But What kind of Rome Catholicism are we dealing with it's it's such a chameleon you know when you want to bring people in you talk about you know, the infallibility of the church and in 2 ,000 years of tradition and blah blah blah but then when you get in you find out that that doesn't really mean anything in any functional way does it and.

That really sort of changes the the grounds of discussion and in particular with the doctrines of Justification by faith alone and the authority of Holy Scripture and we're going to talk about these undoubtedly in our discussion tonight.

We'll come back to them. And so an evangelical is someone who stand now just notice the two things were mentioned. The authority of Scripture. Yep, so the scripture.

The authority claims of Rome and justification by faith alone. Yep, both are very important that it would be accurate to say that's a major area of difference but what you're never gonna hear about and.

And of course when I say never one little statement might prove me wrong. But I have no recollection having listened to this just yesterday morning again I have no recollection of the atonement and the cross and therefore the mass Having been mentioned once in this entire dialogue and the dialogue is Let's see right at an hour and 43 minutes long Not once and I would like to suggest one of the great failures of modern humanism and certainly one of the great failures of this dialogue.

Is that that never once came up? And so you're seeing justification as if it's just this Thing floating around out there. It's not part and parcel of the fundamental difference Between viewing the gospel as something the triune God Accomplishes in perfection for the glory of the triune God and the sacramental man-centeredness of Roman Catholicism.

There is in ecumenical theology a dividing up of divine truth. So that you don't see the relationships between these great truths the only Meaningful foundation of justification by faith alone the reason it must be justification by faith alone has to do with the reality of the perfection of the work of God in salvation and Specifically the perfection of the atoning work of Christ once for all one time.

That's a temporal adverb once for all not Represented over and over and over again never perfecting anyone. Never perfecting anyone. That's where the problem is. And so even though an interesting left It was Frank Beckwith who will read this he will read the 11th canon of the sixth session of the Council of Trent.

Which says if anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins to the exclusion of the grace and the Charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and Remains in them or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the goodwill of God.

Let him be anathema. Now that just anathema ties New Testament Christianity it's right there in the Council of Trent. There are few other statements that more plainly Bring out the non-christian character of Roman Catholicism than that.

Oh. It can't just be the the righteousness of Christ. Because see we redefine Righteousness to include sanctification you grow in this righteousness and you add to it and it's it's just this synergism see and Yet that is the very message of Romans 3 and 4 and 5 and so on so forth Beckwith will bring that up but why is that so important.

Because of the concept of the Union of the elect with Christ in his death and the all-sufficiency of his death and the fact that it's never to be repeated Rome doesn't have that kind of an atonement upon which to base that and so you see it's all connected and Yet only parts of it will end up appearing in.

This Discussion which leads to all the problems that obviously you then have hence within that tradition holding on to the gospel and Yet, I have come to understand as a historian primarily that the Reformation itself was a renewal movement Within the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

This is how I think the Reformers understood what they were doing. They weren't sort of starting a whole new experiment in religion. They wanted to go back through The tradition of the church the history of the church to recover what they understood to be the pure Not totally Incorrupt but purer and pristine foundations of Christian faith, which they found in the early church fathers to some extent But pre eminently in the apostolic witness of the Holy Scriptures.

True true. Yet it also included paring away denying and demonstrating to be downright devilish. The innovations and additions and subtractions and corruptions of the scriptural truth. You can't leave that part out.

I know it's not ecumenically proper to do that, but you can't leave that part out.

And so in that sense I want to call myself a Catholic evangelical an evangelical who's rooted in the Reformation the great principles of the Reformation. But who through that prism is able to appropriate and to affirm and in fact to own as my own the Catholic tradition of the church.

Frank when you returned to the Catholic Church You didn't see the need to jettison your evangelical Identity, why is that? Well a couple of reasons now. I want you to be listening carefully as.

Dr. Beckwith speaks because One of the a chapter I've already finished in a response to Frank Beckwith which will now be expanded on the basis of this dialogue Because he said a number of things will be added to this.

The the question I have raised from the beginning in especially in reading Return to Rome in listening to his appearances since his reversion to Roman Catholicism. The question has always been in my mind.

And he will make reference to I don't know if it's myself or just others who have obviously seen the same things. What was Frank Beckwith conversion experience like I Have never seen anything in What he has said, and I have seen numerous indications to the contrary.

I've never seen anything where he said I embraced The gospel of grace in distinction to The Roman Catholic understanding of the gospel. Now when we have listened in the past to the conversation that took place between dr. Beckwith and On the standard reason program Gregory Kochel Plainly stated that He was saved.

Though he was raised as a Roman Catholic he was saved out of Roman Catholicism. He was saved by a gospel that was not preached in the Roman Catholic Church. Frank Beckwith. I've never heard him say that I've never heard him talk about a time where he said I came to understand that what I have been taught in the Roman Catholic Church Was not the gospel.

I came to understand my sin my need for a sin bearer that that there is no representation of the one death of Christ that partially Protect partially perfects me but but is a channel of grace and and and that I need a sacramental priesthood and and confession and penances and venial immortal sins and purgatory and indulgences and Mary and intercessory of intercession of Saints and No, I I found out that that I there's only one way of salvation.

And and it's it's in Jesus Christ and him alone and all these other things not only detract from but they destroy that message. I never hear that. What I hear is I found you know more excitement and teaching and things in Protestant churches, so I went there because I didn't find it in the Catholic Church and yet when you Examine his philosophy He is a Thomist.

He's a natural theologian. He is very much in line With Roman Catholic ways of thinking at a fundamental and foundational level. My point is he paddled around the middle of the Tiber River for a long long time.

He eventually docked his boat back on the other side. He never Crossed the Tiber River got out pulled his boat up on the shore Tore the boat apart made it a pulpit from which he then called people to leave.

Roman Catholicism never did that and he would admit that and My point of course is if you truly embrace the gospel of grace, you don't have any other choice if You actually think that that gospel is the means by which you have peace with God.

Then you have no choice, but to call others who have been given another gospel out of the darkness of that Man-centeredness and that's where the ecumenist says. Oh, no. No. No, we don't need to do that.

We don't know. You know, I've got my opinions and I prefer this. I like this more and I simply say well, okay. There you go.

That that's that's really what Identifies these things. Let me say tell you a little bit about my background and by the way It's great to be here with with my friend Timothy as well as as Chris who I met several months ago when I was visiting at Notre Dame drove in and we had some coffee and a long Conversation and wonderful to see both of you here.

I Was brought up Catholic. I grew up in a Catholic family and as I As I became grew older I became more and more interested in knowing about the roots Of my faith and one of the things I didn't find in the In least in the Catholic parish and world that I lived in Was any sort of catechesis or understanding of the person of Christ and eventually I began to read One of those good news for modern man New Testament's.

I don't know if you it's probably a bad translation But for me, I liked it because that stick figures in it. You know Paul and Silas are in prison and it's a stick figure prison as I begin as I Became more and more interested in knowing more about my faith.

I drifted into Evangelical churches not because of a kind of anti Catholicism but more having to do with a desire I had to follow Jesus and I.

Drifted. Into evangelical churches. I just wanted to you know, the Catholic Church is supposed to do it. So I just started drifted that way. I have just never heard any. I've no reason to believe that Frank Beckwith ever held that Justification by faith alone is a hill to die on.

It is not what Rome teaches. It is a divinely revealed truth and.

That this somehow meant something to him along those lines as I read more and became more informed. I Considered myself a Protestant and I considered myself a Protestant Taste, you know.

You know. Once I was a Republican and then I became a libertarian, you know. But I could go back it depends. That that is a constant theme. That I have detected in in the writings and the discussions that have taken place since this quote-unquote reversion took place.

And that's I think it says a lot. We're gonna take a break and continue in our analysis of the dialogue between Timothy George and Frank Beckwith right after this.

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Evangelical Identity, Rome, and the Meaning of the Tiber Crossing

And we continue listening to the dialogue that took place just recently up in the Wheaton area between Timothy George and Frank Beckwith.

I don't want to get into too many too much of the history since we're just here to define things, but as I. As I became more and more involved in the evangelical world I went on and Did my doctorate in philosophy and became eventually in 2006 the president of the Evangelical Theological Society.

And during my presidency I resigned soon after returning to the Catholic Church. But for me I Call myself an evangelical Catholic and by calling myself that I fully realized. It's a controversial and contested claim.

I know that there are going to be Catholics who contested. In fact just the other day a blogger named Gregorian right Catholic Said that I am still on the fence. And to some people to claim to be an evangelical Catholic is like Claiming to be both a White Sox fan and a Cubs fan at the same time.

And then there are going to be some evangelicals who will say that I was a I've always been a closet papist naively ignorant of evangelicalism's history and its wide range of theological resources and That if I had just been permitted to have safe harbor under Friars Bridge, I would not have ventured off to Tiber.

I think that's sort of directed my direction or people like like me and I I do Have lots of reasons to question. Dr. Beck with theological knowledge of the far side of the Tiber. By his own statements by by his own confession in regards these issues.

I mean in his book he talks about how he was never really Comfortable with the concept of sola scriptura. Well, okay. That doesn't necessarily make you a quote-unquote closet papist but it does demonstrate that on a very fundamental level a very fundamental level that Frank Beckwith Never really crossed the Tiber.

He never took a stand on the far side and that's why he can treat this as an issue of of You know matters of taste, you know, you know, I I've been here now. Over here, but you know all along I've really, you know been focused on the same things all along.

Well, I think that says a lot now despite being flanked by both sorts of skeptics I nevertheless will plow ahead and offer an account of what what I think it means to be an evangelical Catholic. First what is an evangelical?

Well, it depends who you ask. If you ask the editorial board of modern Reformation magazine Evangelicals are the theological heirs of Lutheran and reform scholastic isms in all its forms in a variety of denominations.

This however, according to some would exclude most Pentecostal Wesleyan and Church of Christ bodies as well as some Anglican Communions. Now if you ask the executive committee of the evangelical theological society.

In order to be a member you only need to believe two things. That the Bible alone in the Bible in its entirety is the Word of God written is therefore inerrant in all its autographs and God is a Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit each an uncreated person one in essence equal in power and glory.

Now again.

If words have meanings in historical contexts, then we know without a doubt That the phrase the Bible alone in that brief. I would argue far too brief Statement of faith is supposed to have a meaning Roger Nicole said it did and It's supposed to have a meaning that excludes Roman Catholics and their view of authority.

That's what he said. Now you can say Roger Nicole was wrong. You can say we don't need to interpret such things in a historical context. We don't need to worry about the original author said whatever he wants to say, but that's the historical fact.

To keep in mind, but this at least theoretically one could according to this maintain membership in good standing while embracing a variety of ancient heresies. Nestorian is a monophysite ism Pelagian ism semi Pelagian ism As well as a dial of Christ's eternal sonship but One cannot be a Catholic and be part of ETS.

So apparently a semi Pelagian historian could be a member of ETS, but not st. Ignatius st Athanasius st. Augustine st. Anselm or Thomas a campus.

Now he's obviously writing reading from Written notes that he prepared for these things. In fact, he's gonna answer one extremely important question That was asked of him. Well, he's gonna skip answering it, but he's gonna read something In in that process, which is fine just just so you know, what was going on since we're not watching a video We're just listening to it but He started saying Ignatius And didn't ever finish saying Ignatius, but I would assume that he means that.

And I I just have to challenge once again on basic honest historical grounds this Constant claim on the part of Roman Catholics that everybody in the past of the Reformation is ours. That's not True. It is a lie It is it is an untruth if Someone that long ago such as Ignatius of Antioch Gave no evidence whatsoever of believing all sorts of things that you as a Roman Catholic believe dogmatically.

You're the ones that use the dogmatic language. You're the ones that use the anathema. You're the ones that say if you don't believe this You are anathema, and I know modern Roman Catholics. You don't just want to fluff that term up Just just think historically for a moment in 13th century Spain if the religious leaders in a town Declared you to be anathema.

What was the inevitable result of that action? It's real simple. It's called a stake and a fire. Oh But but but we didn't do that the the secular authorities did that Anytime I heard somebody saying that and trying to weasel out of what the anathema meant.

I just I Just want to go. You're the same person that wants to sit there and say all 2 ,000 years of tradition. We're the same church But then turn around and pull that stunt. I Does does honesty mean anything here?

It'd be nice. Let's just deal with history as it really was. But anyway, I Leave the point for just a moment in any event.

There are as one would guess a variety of different definitions of evangelicalism. I do think that there's a core of. What I think an evangelical is. From these overlapping and sometimes contested understandings, I think there's a primacy of personal spiritual renewal and Reformation that includes conversion evangelism or preaching the good news of Jesus a commitment to basic Christian orthodoxy on the nature of God in Christ and a high view of Scripture as the infallible and and or inerrant Word of God that provides to us accurate knowledge of the deity his kingdom and the plan of salvation.

Consequently if one thinks of evangelicalism is embracing these core characteristics Then one can certainly be an evangelical Catholic. I think I am an evangelical Catholic because I believe in the evangel the gospel the good news.

As an evangelical. Indeed as a Christian. I have an obligation to propagate as well as live the good news of Jesus Christ. And this and of course.

The big question is and and since Timothy George already said hey brother Frank Can't really bring this up very much. We can we can talk about certain elements of it. I suppose, but we can't say What was the gospel by which you were saved as an evangelical and what is the gospel now?