LDS Church or Jesus Christ?

Apologia Utah

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Hey, how you doing man? We're Christians from a local church. Talking to people about Jesus Christ. Do you have a faith background or anything?

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Yeah. What do you believe in? I believe in Jesus Christ. What church are you guys?

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We're from Apologia Church. So you're not LDS? No, I am. How long have you been

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LDS? About a month. Did you grow up here in Provo? Or just in Utah in general?

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No, I grew up in Oregon. In Oregon? So your parents joined you and since you were born they raised you in it?

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Yeah. So are you going to school here? Do you ever go on a mission or anything like that?

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Yes, I went to Uruguay. Uruguay? Wow. What language do they speak there?

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Spanish. Spanish? Okay. I think Brazil is the Portuguese. Okay, that's what I was thinking. So what was that like?

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It was awesome. I loved it. Good experience? So what's it like for you now today?

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Are you solid in your faith? Are you going to temple? Are you going to service?

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Board meeting house on Sunday? I'm pretty strong in my beliefs. I don't want to waste your guys' time.

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I was a missionary too so I know. Yeah, yeah. No, we just love chatting with our

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LDS neighbors. So, you know, I don't know if you just have a few minutes, just want to know like, you know, just your opinion of some of the obscure doctrines that we've heard of.

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You know, for instance, like in this book I have here it has some

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LDS literature. It talks about eternal progression, right? That, you know, as God is, man once was.

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As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become. Lorenzo Snow. Yeah, and then

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Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse, you know, says that you've imagined suppose that God has been

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God from all eternity. He says I'll refute that idea and take away the veil that you may see. He later says you've got to learn to become gods yourselves.

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So it's all throughout it. There's more prophets here. I know. I've read the King Follett. So what do you think of that?

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Do you think you yourself will attain godhood like Elohim, Father God? Well, I'm always going to be worshipping

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God, right? And he's always going to be above me. Sure. But then there's going to be people below you.

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So you worship Elohim, but one day you'll have people to worship you. I don't know exactly how it's going to be to be honest.

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But I know that one day I'm going to be perfect. Yeah, okay. And does that mean

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I'm going to be as God because I'm perfect? I don't know, maybe. Or is

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God going to put me in charge of running some other things? I don't know. I see. So you're unsure if you'll have creation ability, like you'll be able to create your own universe.

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You're not sure if you'll obtain that high of godhood in the celestial kingdom or you'll be wielding knowledges and intelligences of God?

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I feel like if we live forever... We're going to keep learning?

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Eventually either someone's going to prohibit you from learning something or they're not.

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Okay. So my only contention and obviously

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Jude talks about to earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all handed down to the saints.

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So when I say contention I'm lovingly pushing back saying what we see in the

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Bible we don't see eternal progression demonstrated in the Bible at all.

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We don't see it even demonstrated in the Book of Mormon. That was a later thing. It's foreign to those documents and of course we would understand that the

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Holy Scriptures are the only infallible word of God that the Book of Mormon isn't. But we can get into that later.

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Yeah, it's just we don't see that in the word it says that God is one.

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Deuteronomy 6, the Shema, hero Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one. They would wake up everyday and say that. The Lord our

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God, the Lord is one we can become him one day. I'm not trying to be mock or facetious but we just don't see it.

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There's a reason when I study the Scriptures or when I pray I'm not always thinking about that.

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There are things that God really cares that we know. That he loves us and that if we believe in Jesus Christ and those are what the

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Scriptures focus on. But obviously there are some things that are true that aren't in the Scriptures.

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It doesn't say 1 plus 1 equals 2 in the Scriptures. Sure, we're saying Scripture is fully sufficient for man to know how to be reconciled to God.

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It's not that the Bible teaches us rocket science but also whatever truth we say can't contradict the

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Word too, right? So when we look at that and we see in Isaiah and all throughout

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Scripture that the Lord is one. It says in Isaiah 43 .10, Before me there was no God's form, neither shall there be after me.

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He's making an ontological statement here that there's no other God. He knows not one.

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So he doesn't know people who can become gods. He doesn't know of anyone who will progress to Godhood.

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He is the only God. And I agree that we're gonna learn that we're gonna worship Him. But He doesn't ever say that we'll take on His being.

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Okay? Like we are creatures and He's the Creator and we will never take on His being as God.

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We are not omniscient, all -knowing. We are not omnipotent, all -powerful. We are not omnibenevolent.

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We are not all -good. Those are attributes that only God possesses. That's what the Bible demonstrates.

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Yeah. Do you guys believe you're children of God? Oh yeah. But the

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Bible makes it clear in John's Gospel that Jesus gave us the right to be called children of God.

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That not everyone is children of God. It says even like in Ephesians 2 that when we are dead in our sins and trespasses that we are children of wrath.

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You know what I mean? That we are children of wrath before Christ. So now in Christ we are children of God.

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But do I believe in a pre -existence that we were made there as spirit beings?

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No, I don't believe that. I believe we came to life and it says in Psalm 139 that He knit us together in our mother's womb and He formed our inward parts there and He put our spirit into us and created us at that point.

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I don't think we had any. We had a starting place. That's what the Bible shows. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your opinion.

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Thank you for talking and preaching. You know, honestly these things don't concern you though?

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Like, what if I get this wrong? What if I have this stuff wrong? I think about it all day every day.

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Really? Okay. They don't concern me because I know what

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I know. Right? Okay. And how do you know that? How do you know what you know is correct?

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Versus the Muslim or the Jew, right? Alright, so the first thing I know is that... I don't actually know, but I choose to believe it, right?

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That God exists. So you're acting on faith. Yeah. Because I think about it and I'm like, well if He exists, that's great and there's tons of happiness ahead or if He doesn't exist, then life kind of sucks.

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And I just... I just choose to believe God exists. And I think you guys believe that too, so I don't have to talk more about that.

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Right, right. Okay. Then from what I felt, I know God loves me. And from what

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I've experienced, I know Jesus Christ helps me in my life and has helped me overcome things that I know

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I can't overcome on my own. Right? So those are the main things. Like, higher more powerful than anything.

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God loves me. If I believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him, like, things are gonna work out, right?

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Yeah. Can I ask you a couple of questions about that? Sure. Because I appreciate that too. Like, I want to believe in Jesus.

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I want to know who Jesus is. But the question is, how do you know that the Jesus that you've been taught from the

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LDS organization is actually the true and living God, right? Because 2 Corinthians 11 verse 4, it tells us, it's

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Paul's warning to the church in Corinth. It says that there's people who will come and they'll preach, number one, a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit is one that they would accept.

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And 1 John 4 commands us to test the spirits. Right? So if I look at the LDS organization, for example, we have a

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Jesus being posed to us that is the offspring of Elohim and one of His goddess wives, right?

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He was created by Elohim. He wasn't eternally in existence, right? Uh, He was. His intelligence has existed.

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Alright, well it says this about Jesus in the word. It says He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So He always existed eternally as God.

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And you can go to Philippians chapter 2 as well, it talks about Jesus. It says, though He existed eternally in the form of God, He did not consider something of equality of God for something to be grasped, so He emptied

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Himself and became flesh, took the form of a servant. And then we have John chapter 1 it says, in the beginning was the

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Word, in the Word was with God, in the Word was God, talking about Jesus, all things were created through Him and for Him.

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There was nothing that was created or that came into being that was not created through Him. And in Colossians chapter 1 it says,

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He made all things on heaven and on earth, invisible and invisible, 1 -16, including

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Lucifer. Right. But the LDS organization says that He's the spirit brother of Lucifer. How do you reconcile those things?

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Because Muslims will say, you know, I believe in Jesus, but He didn't resurrect from the grave, right?

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He was just a mere prophet. The Jehovah's Witnesses will say they believe in Jesus, but He's just the first creation of Jehovah God who was resurrected as a spirit creature.

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The question is, how do you know that the Jesus you believe in is the real Jesus? Because when

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I gave my testimony of who Jesus is and what He can do for me, it was through reading the Book of Mormon.

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And studying what the Book of Mormon says about who He is and what He's done and who He can help me become.

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And I literally felt like I was in total depression, anxiety, like in the depths of hell, and I studied

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Jesus through the Book of Mormon and the Bible. But my real testimony of who Jesus is came through the

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Book of Mormon. And I know it's true. And I felt it so strongly, I can't deny it. I appreciate that, man, because I'm not going to doubt your experience.

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I believe people experience things. For example, I believe the Jehovah's Witness can say the same thing. Right? But it doesn't mean they're right.

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I believe the Muslim can say the same thing. And they believe by obedience to the pillars of Islam that they can have peace with God.

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But the question is... How has God revealed Himself? How has Jesus revealed

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Himself? For example, if we look at the Book of Mormon and praying about it to reveal the truth, we know that the Book of Mormon was revealed through Joseph Smith as a prophet.

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Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and the Book of Mormon to be true, like the testimony? Which I respect that.

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But the question is, well, how do you know then that Joseph Smith's a true prophet? Because there's actually two tests of the prophet in Scripture, specifically.

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You know, Jesus gives one as well, by their fruits shall know them. But earlier in the Old Testament, in Deuteronomy chapter 13 and chapter 18, are two quick tests.

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I'll just tell them to you. The first one says, if a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs and wonders, so even if it looks legit, but if they lead you after other gods, gods which you have not known, don't believe in them.

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Well, how would they know if it's a different god? Number one, it contradicts previous revelation that's been given to them.

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Second one, Deuteronomy 18 says if there's just one false prophecy, that they're not a false prophet. Just one.

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They're not a true prophet. They're not a true prophet that they've spoken in the name of Yahweh presumptuously.

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So if I look at Joseph Smith, right, and his claims about Jesus and the deity of God, I would say he contradicts previous revelation.

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That's why there's need for another, right? That's why there's the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, because now there's new revelation about God and His being.

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But God tells me, hey, I should trust in Him, because in Matthew it says heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words by no means will ever pass away.

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In Proverbs it says every word of God proves true. He is like a shield unto them who put their faith in Him. Add thou not unto these words, unless ye rebuke thee, and thou shalt be found a liar.

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Right? But we have Joseph Smith saying, well, no, that the Bible's missing many plain and precious parts. And here's other revelation, but now it contradicts what

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God's previously revealed. Right, so there's numerous false prophecies, but in History of the Church, Volume 5, page 349,

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Joseph Smith says, I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the saints in the state of Missouri, and punish the crimes committed by her officers, that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted.

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There will not be so much as a potsherd left. And that didn't happen. Right? And there's more things that occur here that says the temple will be rebuilt in Independence, Missouri, that Jesus will return in His days.

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Within 56 years. He actually gives a year. So if we take Joseph Smith, and we just run him through the false prophecy test.

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The test that God gives us because He loves us. He doesn't want us to be fooled. Alright, well, who wrote the words in the

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Bible that said if someone gives a false prophecy that they're wrong? That's God's word. Deuteronomy. Who wrote that though?

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Did God himself write it down in the book that you have? Yeah, it says all scripture is breathed out by God.

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I believe in the Bible, but I know that there's just people writing stuff down that they think God wants us to hear.

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Like, I believe God really inspired most of it, but I don't I'm not going to just take a word as absolute truth from the

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Bible and leave it to disprove everything that I've felt in my whole life. So you have no solid ground to stand on then?

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Oh, I have a solid ground which is my belief in God and my faith in Jesus Christ through my experiences. Even if it contradicts the

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Bible? Experiences higher than the Bible. Listen, if God told me that that, like, a verse in the

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Bible is not true, I'm going to be like, okay. So any verse that disagrees with the

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Book of Mormon, in your opinion, or the revelations of Joseph Smith aren't true. No, any verse that disagrees with your experience what

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God has revealed to me. To you personally. And I'm not going to claim that I've seen him or heard his voice, but I just know how

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I feel when I read the Book of Mormon or when I study the revelations that Joseph Smith gave.

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Have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever thought like, I'm going to go do this because I feel like it's right, and then afterwards you know, maybe you told a girl

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I really like you and then it blew up on you and you wish you wish you hadn't done that.

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You see how our feelings can deceive us? Our heart can deceive us? Yeah, but they can deceive us.

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Jeremiah 17 9 says, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. Who can know it?

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The Bible makes it clear, following our heart can lead us astray. We have the

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Word of God as self -authenticating, it's self -attesting, it is the

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Word of God, it's the highest thing that we can appeal to, and so what I would tell you is if all you have to appeal to is your experience then that's subjective that's not objective truth that's not solid, you know, that can change.

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Who knows what you'll think in a year you know, you may even change your opinion about the one true church you may even change your opinion about Jesus Christ, but we have to understand that the

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Word of God is the solid rock that we can appeal to. So I mean,

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I could go through I haven't studied as intensely as I wish

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I had as I wish I I wish

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I had studied the Bible more, right? I've only like read it through once but I know

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I can go through and find contradicting things in the Bible You know, I'm sure that that's easily cleared up the fact is the

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Book of Mormon though has had thousands of edits not just, you know let me put it this way, in the transmission of Scripture there's been little things like the or a there's been no doctrinal changes when the

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Dead Sea Scrolls came out in the 1940s they got the Isaiah Scroll which was dated to be 200 years before Christ even so what they had found is that that 200

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BC scroll matched the translation that they have today that it had largely not changed in any way doctrinally with just articles changing and stuff like that, but the

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Book of Mormon has literally been edited thousands of times removing whole sections, changing things out removing the fact that you know, dark skinned people are cursed and things like that from the 1830 version until now so I mean, as far as like you know, the

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Bible having errors versus the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon has had so many changes, it's unreal well thank goodness at least

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I believe that those changes are inspired of God, right? okay but I don't want to keep wasting your time what's your name?

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Wade Wade. Andrew. Andrew, where are you guys from? we actually just moved here from Phoenix, Arizona, we're planting a church out in uh, where is it?

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South Jordan? Yeah, it's called Apologia Church so our main thing is this like you say as well, you wish you studied the

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Bible more, all I would suggest to you my friend, is uh, 1 John 4 it says do not despise the prophecy, right?

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But it says test the spirits so the issue that I have, just real quickly, is when you have to challenge the word of God to stand on your position is this like in the beginning, in the garden when uh, you know,

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Adam and Eve were told you can eat of all the things but don't eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil Satan came and tempted

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Eve and the first thing he tempted her with my friend, is he said this, did God say that? Did God say that?

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And then he said, well if you eat of this fruit, you will become like God and that was a lie, but the first thing he got them to do is question if God actually said something and God is this powerful my friend,

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God is so powerful that he can preserve his word throughout time, the Holy Spirit has preserved the scriptures, the only reason

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I know that is because scripture tells me so not my subjective experience because in your position, you can't have an argument with the

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Jehovah's Witness because he can look right back at you and say you can't tell me anything because your truth is your truth but um, this is the thing is like,

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I think go back dude, read the New Testament again alright, go through it again that's all we want from you we don't want you to lose faith we want you to read the truth of the living

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God definitely, we're not here to tear you down if it comes to Jesus Christ versus the

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Book of Mormon, I'd choose Jesus Christ oh dude, I'd love to hear that but I don't think there's a

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I swear and I'll let you go Jesus Christ is the one true God the

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Bible demonstrates that God is perfectly holy, that he cannot look on wickedness with favor, that he is so holy he must, in his perfect justice punish sinners and the

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Bible demonstrates in Romans chapter 3 and so many other places that we have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right?

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So we're at a predicament we are sinful and God is perfectly holy and so by his very nature he must punish us, but the good news is that he sent his one and only son

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Jesus Christ, God in the flesh stepped into his own creation as this brother is saying,

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John 1 Colossians 1, he created all things he stepped into it, he took on flesh he lived the life that we couldn't live and he died the death that we deserved he died on that cross, he took our place he literally became a curse for us he atoned for our sins he was buried, he was raised again on the third day, proving that death has died he has a victory over the death and the grave and now all who repent and believe in him by faith will have eternal life

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Ephesians 2, 8 and 9 say for by grace we are saved through faith, for it is the gift of God not a result of works, so that no man may boast.

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It is a free gift of God and it's going to change us it's going to make us transform and repent and have new hearts.

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Ezekiel 36 says that he will remove our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh and you can have that if you believe in the one true and living

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God in the one true Christ not the Christ of the LDS church but the Christ of Scripture that is the gospel in a nutshell that you are sinful and you need to repent and turn from this organization they offer no salvation they offer no hope, no peace with God it will condemn you and send you to hell but through the true