Blood Red Church | Ep. 3

Well, the compromise that's happened in a gray church is,

I think, a genuine desire for unity.

And some of the teachers, especially at the Gospel Coalition and outfits like that, are telling people that,

okay, if you're a preacher and nobody in your congregation knows where you stand politically,

then that's like kudos to you.

You're doing a good job, right?

And welcome to Off the Cuff.

This is Average Joe Gormley talking to our Pastor Jeff Klewer.

Hey, Pastor Jeff, how are you today?

I'm doing really well.

I'm so excited about our talk today.

I think we talked beforehand a little bit about the blue church and the gray church and how

important it is, well, how hard it is to determine, am I even in a blue church or a

gray church?

So, I'm sure a lot of people are wondering, what on earth are you talking about?

Blue church, gray church, red church?

Yeah, I might help.

Defining our terms again.

Defining our terms.

So, what would we call a red church?

The blood of Christ covers us from all unrighteousness and we're transformed into the image of Christ

from one degree of glory to another.

The Word of God trains us in all righteousness, speaking to all areas of life,

the whole counsel of God.

We're submitted to that and it teaches a particular ethic.

The blue church has a completely different worldview, a whole different statement of faith,

a different morality, a different ethical grid.

And we call that blue, gray.

What is gray?

It's neither red nor blue.

It's somewhere in the middle.

It's some blend of the two or it's just fuzzy and silent and middling,

not willing to take a stand or to deal with these issues.

And is it safe to say like blue is pretty easy to figure out, right?

Yeah, because they have a giant rainbow flag on their yard.

Especially with the rainbows.

We didn't have that a few years ago and now it's really easy, right?

We had to worry about other things.

But the gray church is a tough one.

And you could be in a church for 20 years and you just don't know.

Well, the compromise that's happened in a gray church is,

I think, a genuine desire for unity.

And some of the teachers, especially at the Gospel Coalition and outfits like that, are telling people that,

okay, if you're a preacher and nobody in your congregation knows where you stand politically,

then that's like kudos to you.

You're doing a good job, right?

They don't know if you're for or against socialism.

They don't know what your position is on abortion.

Well, surely, you know, abortion is wrong, but what about policies around that?

And does life begin at conception?

They don't really know.

What is your stand?

Can I defend other people's right to kill their babies as opposed to having to stand up for all

murder in the womb?

So making some room for like this, well, you know, I'm against

abortion, but I see that politicians are more pro -life in other

areas like welfare or whatever.

They would say that's a pro -life issue.

So hey, that might be okay.

We won't take a stand because in their mind, that's justified.

So here's the big idea though.

In the gray church, they assume that unity, even at the

cost of truth, is to be celebrated.

Is that how they...

So are you saying that they know it's evil, but for the sake of unity,

that's why they do it?

There's got to be multiple motivating factors.

I mean, we can't possibly know the hearts.

I think unity is a major drive and push.

And of course, John 17, we're to pray for unity.

But never at the cost of truth.

There are times when standing for the truth will be like a sword that divides, and Jesus talks about how it would divide

even a family.

Unity is something that we desire, but we can never compromise truth to achieve it.

How do you know when to argue and when not to argue?

Because you don't want to be argumentative, but we know we must make good arguments.

Well, I think it depends on the weight of the question at hand.

First of all, does it touch upon the gospel?

That would be...

Let's say somebody tried to redefine sin.

Yeah.

How about that?

Well, how can you preach the gospel to someone who is bound in some kind of sexual sin

if you're unwilling to define what sexual sin is?

You've lost the gospel at that point.

So anything that touches on the gospel, also things that affect life, liberty, the pursuit.

Of happiness.

There are things that rise.

You don't quibble about small differences, but the kind of questions that we address in the Red Church,

these are matters of life and death.

Abortion is not some trifle.

So I think that's a good transition point to go to this little quote I have, or a couple of quotes here.

As I told you, I was listening to Greg Bonson, and he was preaching

about Romans 3, and he.

Said this.

It's possible for theologians to outwardly say the right thing, then to pour

poison into the bottle.

All labels look correct.

The form of their theology, that is, looks correct.

Instead of health -giving medicine, we get poison instead.

And then he quotes another pastor, and I'm not going to say the name of the pastor for those of you who want to go out and

Google this maybe and see this, but this is a pretty well -known pastor on TV and

things like that.

He said this, I'm convinced that the deepest of all human needs is salvation

from sin and.

Hell.

I see sin as all -pervasive in humanity, infecting all human behavior and polluting the

social institutions and systems at every level.

The result of sin is death and hell.

Now, that sounds pretty good, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nothing wrong with that, until later on.

In his book, he defines sin, like you said.

He defines sin.

How would you define sin?

Sin is lawlessness.

Right.

It is breaking the law of God.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's see if this pastor's definition lines up.

It says, sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another

human being of self -esteem.

Audience, anybody?

I mean, drop the mic.

That's horrible.

What is that?

That's anti -gospel.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, if you don't have the law of God to define what sin is, to then make us

guilty and shut our mouths before God, then you can't be brought to a point of repentance and faith in the

son of God.

Right.

So, to say anything that harms, what do you say, your self -esteem?

Yeah.

Your self -esteem.

Sin is any act, it's a good thing to repeat this, sin is any act or thought that robs myself, myself,

or another human being of self -esteem.

So we're elevating self -esteem to this, which I don't even like that term.

I think if it's ever used correctly, it's still horrible.

You know?

Yeah.

We're supposed to deny ourself, right?

So my first thought when we were talking about this earlier, right, not exactly off the cuff, was

that, how does a new believer in a church like this, where you hear that

first part of a sermon, sounds great, and then you get that definition, when's that definition going to creep in?

Is that coming in like six months after you're there, a year after you're there, and you're like, oh, that's what sin is?

You know, you had all this good stuff, and then you change, you twist just a little bit of twist.

Well, that's the nature of false teaching, is that it wraps itself in a package that looks orthodox.

So it's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

If the wolf just came in saying, yeah, I'm here to preach a different gospel, then everybody runs out of the building.

But if he sounds so right in that first part of the quote, and then only later on slips in

this unorthodox and even heretical view of sin, the wolf will

eventually take off the sheep's clothing, or, you know, try to devour a sheep while wearing it.

Yeah.

But, yeah, it's...

It's hiding.

I think, so, as a person, as a regular average Joe Christian, I'm talking to my next -door neighbor,

and they go to XYZ Church down the road, and we're like, oh, kumbaya, and we're

all having fellowship, but they don't know what sin is.

How do I, first of all, make sure that my neighbor does know

the gospel, and knows sin, and knows all the key components of being a Christian?

Because I care about them, and I love them, and I want them to know these things.

So I think we first of all have to engage and create that sort of conversation where it moves

a little bit beyond like, hey, how was your evening, or, you know, what's going to happen this weekend,

to the deep things of life?

And that's the hard part of evangelism, of introducing a question or something that would.

Engage that.

So one of the things that my friend Phil and I like to do is ask a question like, hey, can I get your opinion on

something?

What do you think of the afterlife?

Now you've moved it to the spiritual.

Now this, to answer your question, this is the key point.

The law of God has to be brought upon the conscience of the sinner.

So you need the law of God, the Ten Commandments, to bring

conviction and to tear apart that self -esteem, which people have no problem with that self -esteem

with regard to their sin, right?

They justify it.

They even want you to celebrate it, and they want to feel affirmed.

Their self -esteem is part of what's keeping them bound, right?

It's medical.

It's scientific.

So you bring the law of God to bear upon it.

How many lies do you think you've told in your life?

You don't just ask them, have you ever lied?

Because that's enough to get them thinking, oh yeah, yeah, everybody lies.

But how many lies do you think you've told in your life gets them thinking, wait a minute, it's been a lot.

I remember this time, hundreds.

And now the weight of their conscience hopefully is beginning to weigh on their shoulders.

And then you talk about Jesus's comments about adultery.

If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, begin to look into the heart, covetousness

is the Tenth Commandment, and it's all about the heart.

So you begin to press the law of God down upon the heart, and these conversations go, and it won't be long

if there's some particular sin that they're struggling with that you'll hear them ask about that,

and what do you think about this particular sin?

And then having the willingness to say what God says and have a

loving, gentle attitude as you say it without blunting the edge and the truth that

will bring conviction.

It's hard.

We all want to blunt that edge.

We want to blunt that edge.

I want to blunt that edge.

Oh, sure.

Because if I'm talking to somebody and I feel like, and I get accused of sharpening the edge, at the

same time, I'm really blunting it because I'm like, I want to kind of navigate around something

and say, well, this door, they wouldn't open that door, I got to try to open a different door.

What do you do in those situations?

Well, I mean, you're following the conversation, and you really are not trying to drive them.

Away.

Like, it's not hard to go and yell at somebody and drive them away, right?

So you're trying to be kind, ask a lot of questions, listen really well,

and then keep the conversation going.

You're not trying to end it.

But you are bringing truth to bear.

So the kind of questions you ask, for example, how many lies do you think you've told in.

Your life?

Yeah.

Well, you're using the law of God to get them thinking about their own sin, but ultimately you're bringing them good

news.

There is a sin bearer.

For those who repent of sin and believe in him, your sin can be taken away.

And then you'll know what it really feels like to have a clear conscience and to have no longer

self -esteem built on this fake, like, blunting of the conscience, where you

try to press down the law and what you know about this God.

You're suppressing that knowledge and trying to puff yourself up by making everybody affirm you and pride

movements, you know.

Every June, you just see this display of insecurity.

That's what it is.

Like, everybody affirmed me all month long.

Why?

Because you're suppressing the law and the knowledge of God, and you need that affirmation.

But there's a kind of not self -esteem, but confidence in knowing that you are

forgiven.

You walk with the Savior, and his cleansing blood has washed you clean of all unrighteousness, and

you are justified and sanctified, and he loves you, and your future is

secure.

You have eternal security.

So that's a much more mentally healthy place to be than the insecurity of constantly

self -esteem, begging for affirmation.

So what you're actually offering them is really good news, not only for the future, eternal life, which is the

most important thing, but even for this life.

Sounds like you're saying that you need to speak to them in their language, too.

Like so with the self -esteem and the confidence, I mean, those are two words that really play well

against each other in a way that they will understand without.

So I've said dumb things like, well, self -esteem, that's just selfishness, or it's

pride, it's just a sin.

You can't, you gotta be a little less cutting edge than that.

Well, yeah, the goal of the evangelist is to win the soul, right?

Daniel 12, he who wins souls is wise, right?

Or in that case, no, I'm conflating the psalm, but Daniel 12 is about those who win souls

will shine like the stars.

There's a glory to that.

You want to win their soul.

You're not trying to lose them.

You love them, and so you're not trying to condemn every use of wrong language and just drive them

away.

Let's go back to the blue church versus the gray church.

And what, now you've written a book called The Blood Red Church, which

I was just, it just blew me away because there was this thing about the gray church, I couldn't put

my finger on it for many years, I believe I went to a gray church, and I couldn't put my

finger.

On it.

It was hard to, you know, topics would come up and I'd ask for

clarification and it took days or weeks to get clarification on certain topics.

How do I know if I'm in a gray church?

What would you do as a member of a church and

you suspect you're in a gray church, what would you say to your pastor?

You know, I wouldn't say anything, I would ask questions.

And some of the questions would be like, socialism, or even democratic socialism,

versus capitalism.

Is there a biblical view?

Or are they, is there room for difference in that area?

And what are you expecting.

The answers are going to be for someone who's gray, well let's just do that, what's a gray

pastor?

There will be nauseating nuance, there will be so much nuance and

lack of clarity in answering that question, leaving room, well, you know, some people emphasize this,

and it's good to be compassionate for your neighbor, and maybe there's a role for government in some of the,

you know, you'll see this kind of need -based theory of justice versus justice as biblically defined.

What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with what you just said?

It's anti -biblical.

The Bible clearly teaches capitalism.

Really?

Absolutely.

My gosh, I've got some friends that are going to be shocked.

Yes, and there's no doubt about it.

Capitalism itself rises from the Christian worldview.

And we could debate that one day, whoever wants to argue that point, but it's just a simple matter of private

property, of Exodus 20, you know, thou shalt not steal.

This concept of private property.

Yeah, so I think some of the arguments that you make, I mean, one of the arguments is

certainly theft, right?

So, you know, we're not to steal other people's stuff, and then, but we make the arguments the

government's not supposed to steal stuff, but then we're okay with them stealing stuff at other times.

Isn't that kind of the problem when we make these arguments?

Absolutely, because the government as it exists today, and the taxation just as we have it now is already

absolutely theft.

It's so far beyond the biblical parameters, what the government does versus what the government was commissioned to do

in Romans 13.

There's such a gap there.

So all right, so if the government, now this is, I hope you appreciate this question.

This is why we do it.

It's off the cuff.

Let's go.

If the government is sinning by stealing my money, why should I keep paying them?

Well, it would be a very high bar to clear to stop paying your taxes when Jesus himself said,

render to Caesars what is Caesar's and to God what is God's, in reference to that kind of question.

Even if that entity is working outside of their authority, and

even so, and I mean, how many times do they have to violate their authority before

we have to take a stand?

Well, the American Revolution was drawing a line in the sand at the

Boston Tea Party.

That's when they overstepped it.

It went beyond.

And what's so funny about that is that taxation at that point was, I think, less than 1 % of.

Income.

And now we're up at 50 something.

I mean, it's become halfway to a socialist.

So there would come a point where lesser magistrates, people who God

brings into positions of authority, let's say it's a state governor or a group of

state governors, would, first of all, use the constitutional processes that were put in place

to hold the federal government in.

Check.

What we can't do is just say an individual right now is going to just advocate anarchy

and just come out from under it and, I'm not paying taxes, well, you end up in jail.

That's not a movement of God.

That's not what the American Revolution was.

But God in time, and it's almost hard to see how anything would prevent this from

happening in time unless there's a change in the American trajectory, but God

could raise up some major shift in the American political situation.

I could see that happening if it keeps going.

For example, you brought up earlier the decision in Washington, right?

How many conservatives are on the court right now?

Wow.

How do you define conservative?

What are they conserving?

If they're not willing to stand for basic free speech, that a pastor, counselor, sitting

across in a room with someone who is confused sexually or according to their gender,

if you can't tell them the gospel, that they should repent of sin and believe in Christ and be changed, and quote 1

Corinthians 6, 10 and 11, if you can't do that, there's no free speech.

And yet the answer to the question is there's two.

Because only Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito said that this law should be

unconstitutional.

They were willing to take up the case and fight Washington State.

The other quote unquote conservatives, yeah, they just said, just let it go, let the law be the law.

Well, that's Washington State.

I mean, that's a big deal.

We could be thrown in prison for preaching the gospel.

Well, I mean, that law is in place in New Jersey for specifically psychologists.

But the fear now is that it -.

By what logic will it not come into this office?

There's no logical reason to draw the line there.

There's not.

But they'll say freedom of religion, which we're thankful for, that there's a certain protection there.

This is the American founders were protecting religion, and that's what Thomas

Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists to say, the wall of separation between church and state was so that this very thing.

So we might have freedom for some time, but big picture there is you do pay your taxes until

God has raised up some military or some state or some

movement that would be an actual revolution.

Where you declare war and there's secession.

There was a civil war fought over this.

And in that case, it was not a just cause because they were defending slavery.

And so just so that nobody thinks we're talking about, hey, we need a civil war.

We don't have enough believers to have a just war if a war was called for.

We don't have enough believers to vote down the killing of human babies in the womb.

This is the reason that we lose elections because there's just not enough of us that have any moral sense whatsoever.

And a big reason for that is because pastors aren't clearly preaching.

Yeah, I think, and I don't, I mean, this could be a whole nother episode, but I think a lot of

military families are questioning whether or not they can faithfully serve God and serve in the U

.S. military at the same time.

Yeah.

And that's a reasonable question.

And John Lask and I were just talking about that with the Naval Academy.

At what point can you even not, in good conscience, recommend people go there?

Because it's so woke.

Wow.

Do you send them to a woke indoctrination camp when you want to go serve your country?

Yeah.

Well, you know, I think we've got a lot to chew on from that.

So I'm going to, I'm probably going to put up a little picture of your Blood Red Church

book right here.

Because folks, especially in our church, we need to get, we need to read that, you know.

Pastors always got copies here in the office if you, if you want one.

Yep, for free.

And maybe, you know, maybe we get some, a couple of chapters out as a promotion at some point to get

people to sign up to be on the podcast that we're doing every week because this is going to come out very soon

and we'd love for you to share this with other people.

Share it with people who go to other churches.

Not necessarily to recruit them to come to Cornerstone, which is nothing wrong with that.

We do want to bring people into Cornerstone.

But you know, if they're going to a woke church and they don't know what the definition of sin is, I mean,

gosh, that could be really bad.

And there's all types of woke churches.

So there are some, some are on the sin level.

You know what, do you want to hit a couple?

I just want to say that, so there are, there's a spectrum to that, right?

So there are great churches where the pastor is generally conservative, but just maybe a little afraid to speak to some of these issues.

And what this podcast could hopefully do is encourage him to be more bold and say things that he

already knows to be the case, just never had the green light.

Well, if your whole denomination is inside of one of these groups, it could be the Gospel Coalition

like you mentioned, but there's a bunch of other ones too.

And some are more red and some are more gray.

Christianity Today is entirely gray or even almost blue at this point, a magazine.

The Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission, the ERLC, which is the big moral arm of the Southern Baptist

Convention, they're entirely in the gray camp and hateful of those that are taking

strong stands on these things.

So there's a lot of work to be done.

So we hope you come back next week and listen to Off The Cuff podcast, Reflections on the Christian Life with

Pastor Jeff Kleeberg.

See you next time.