Is It Time to Rethink Polygamy? | Part 2

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what do you do with the fact that there really isn't a positive mention of polygamy in the

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Bible? And then on top of all that, you have the Bible essentially opens with a marriage, right?

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So, Adam and Eve, Eve is created for Adam, they consummate their marriage, that's the beginning of the

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Bible essentially, that's the beginning of human history is two people get married. And then at the end of history, at the end of time, when

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Jesus has already come back, he's come back for the church, we've been reunited with Christ face to face, it's described as a marriage.

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Salvation, any hope of heaven. The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

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God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them.

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And when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

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God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

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Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them. And when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

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So, okay. So, if the Old Testament is meant to show us the -

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Tanner Is that our folly? Pete Yeah, the folly of, you know, all these negative consequences that come from polygamy, why then does the

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Old Testament simultaneously regulate polygamy? Jared Yeah.

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So, I think there's, this is the point that I would say for me for many years,

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I didn't really have a good answer to this question. And so, this is why I'm somewhat sympathetic to the kind of person who says,

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I don't want to outright condemn this. I can say it's unwise, I don't want to outright condemn it.

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But then, because I didn't really necessarily have the most wonderful answer to why this is regulated.

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So, for instance, Exodus 21 .10, if he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food or clothing or her marital rights.

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And if he does not do these, this is talking about like a slave wife, if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing without payment of money.

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So, I think part of my problem with landing this plane personally for many years, in terms of coming up with the, there's a couple of components of it.

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This is one of the components that kept me from having, that kept me having more of a tentative position on this topic.

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And I think I didn't have the most wonderful explanation for why it was doing that for a while.

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So, it was clear. So, I mean, if you revisit the first principles, for this reason, man shall leave father and mother, hold fast to his wife, two will become one flesh, and Jesus, you know, and they will become one flesh and Jesus describes as two will become one flesh.

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Jesus is telling you that marriage is two, you know, one plus one equals one, right? So, two become one, that's what marriage is.

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So, like thinking about it along those lines, I didn't necessarily, like it seems like Jesus is clear, like when

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Jesus comes along the scene, he's clarifying what adultery is and what everyone understood it to be, right?

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So, that's what he's coming along to do. And you know, he does that very specifically in a wide variety of ways.

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So, those things, I mean, like you look at the narratives and you say, okay, hey, like God's original design is monogamy, that's obvious, right?

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So, that's true. Because you could see that. You see through the narratives, you read through the narratives, this goes bad, it goes bad, it goes bad.

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And then you see like there are hints of prohibition against it, like meaning like God tells kings not to multiply wives and then in the

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New Testament, he tells like an elder must be the husband of one wife, right? So, it's like, well, why not say it across the board, right?

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So, that was my thought process, why not say it across the board? And then he does clarify what adultery is in Matthew 19, he says to you, whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery.

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So, that should tell you right there. So, like the issue is, if you read that, I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery.

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What that means is the only way he could marry another lawfully is to divorce his wife.

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Does that make sense? Jared I mean, and that's a significant point that tells you that Jesus' view of adultery was what our view of adultery is, right?

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So, like, the only way, so that prohibits, like, so you think about it that way, that is prohibiting plural marriage in principle.

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He's saying, and I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery because it's one man plus one woman for life, that's what it is, right?

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So, all that, like, all that makes abundant sense, it's very clear. But then you say, well, why is he regulating it?

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And here's the answer. So, I've beat around the bush, but here's the answer.

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I think one of the things that's happened is that we're living in a society which has basically successfully normalized fornication.

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And so, in order to have a good answer to this question, you basically have to adopt, in order to have a good answer to this question beyond just ignoring the fact that it's regulated and saying, like, beyond just ignoring that it's regulated and just pointing out the principles

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I just mentioned, you really have to adopt a position that I think very few people want to adopt.

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And that's part of the problem because there's a lot of societal pressure against it. And so, in the

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Bible, like, here's the idea. In the Bible, like, sex is tied to marriage in a very fundamental way, okay?

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So, and this is something, we don't have any tolerance for this line of thinking, but this is really the line of thinking that we need to take.

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So, like, the idea is that in the Old Covenant, like, you can think of, under, I mean, in the

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Bible, in the Bible in general, you see that, like, man leaves, like, definition of marriage, man leaves father, mother, hold fast to wife, two become one flesh.

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That two becoming one flesh, that gives you a definition of consummation, that's what it is, right?

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So, man marries woman, consummates the relationship, two become one. And then when you read through the

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New Testament, what happens is you see that everyone who joins himself to a prostitute has become one flesh with her, right?

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So, like, and that's in 1 Corinthians. So, like, the idea there is just to say, and it appeals to this foundational definition of what marriage is, right?

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So, like, you're making yourself one flesh with her, and then it points to Genesis 2 .24, for this reason, leave father and mother, two become one flesh and all that.

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And then it says that all other sins are, like, all other sins are, like, not sins against the body in the same way this sin is a sin against the body.

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So, and the idea is that when a man sleeps with a prostitute, what he's doing is he is consummating a marriage union, okay?

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Like, that's what he's doing. So, when, you know, Abraham sins for a wife for Isaac and, you know,

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Rebecca decides to be the wife and she comes along with him, Isaac, you know, marries her by going into the tent and marrying her, right?

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Right. So, like, the idea is that, like, sex is the consummation of a marriage union.

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That's what it is, okay? So, then when you get that principle in your mind, that helps you explain other passages, but then it also helps you explain the polygamy question.

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So, and this is a roundabout way of answering it, but I need to play the math, right? So, here's the thing.

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Exodus 22, 16, if a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and he lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife.

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So, this is an idea that everyone literally hates in our society, right? And what it's saying is if a man seduces a virgin, like, if you have sex with a person, you should marry her.

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That's what you were commanded to do in the Old Testament. Why? Because you've already consummated a marriage with her.

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Do you see what I'm saying? Pete Right, yeah. Jared Like you've consummated a marriage with her. So, you become one flesh with her.

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That's what you've done. So, now you need, like, but the problem was you consummated it before you made it official, right?

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So, like, the idea is just to say that you need to marry her because in some sense you already did, right?

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Like, that's the thing, right? Now, like, you think about this, everyone hates that verse right now. Like, they absolutely despise that verse, but if everyone did that verse, you wouldn't have individuals who are fornicating with 30, 40, 100 people, right?

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So, like, think about which society Pete Yeah, you'd avoid a lot of further iniquity with commands like that, right?

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Jared Right, right. So, like, the idea is, I mean, and think about how much less STDs you would have.

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Think about how much less out -of -wedlock pregnancies you would have and everything else. Like, think about how much less sexual sin you would have.

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So, like, the idea is just to say, like, in the

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New Testament, they're saying if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he's become one flesh with her. That's a sin against the body itself because of Genesis 2 .24,

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right? So, you have a principle here. Man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed to her, he lies with her, he shall give her a bride price for her and make her his wife.

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Now, this one is even more hated, right? So, like, Deuteronomy 22 .28, if a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, he sees her and lies with her, they're found.

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Then a man who lay with her shall give the father of a young woman fifty shekels of silver and she shall be his wife because he has violated her.

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He may not divorce her for all his days. So, why does that make sense? Like, so, no one has any answer to that question other than just to pretend like it was, like, no one likes that.

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No one wants to apply that. There's, like, everyone hates that person, right? But then the idea is just to say if, like, the reason why that's a protection of women, even though it doesn't seem like a protection of that individual woman, the reason why that's a protection of women in general is because of the idea that there is no serial rapist kind of thing happening at that point.

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Because if you have some kind of responsibility to pay and to provide for this person that you've, you know, in the language of the

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Bible, humbled, right? Like, in that way, there's, like, you, like, that was a law that God gave that no, like, everyone detests, but it's based on this reality of two becoming one, meaning something, right?

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So, that means something. So, then, like, the idea is then to say, okay, why would God regulate polygamy?

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Well, because there's, like, because the idea is to say that sex is more significant than we think it is.

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So, if sex is more significant than what we think it is, then the idea is if a man does this, he's made an extra wife, right?

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So, like, if a man is married, he commits adultery, like Matthew 19, 9,

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I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery, if he does what

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Jesus did, and, like, simple people are gonna do that, you have a law that's basically coming along saying, well, now you gotta pay the consequences and the consequences of it are gonna be that you're gonna have two women who basically hate each other, right?

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You've made your life miserable for one, you know, man commits adultery, has fallen into a deep pit and then poured by the

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Lord, but you're not gonna be able to divorce her all the days of your life, right? You have to, like, this is a marriage, right?

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You have to recognize it as a marriage, this can't just be your thing on the side and everything else that, like, you have no responsibility to pay for or to own or everything else, you have to do something about it, you have to make, you have to take on this responsibility forever, and so in that kind of situation, then, yeah,

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I mean, I'm not, like, what you have then is you have the logic of the Bible that's basically coming along and regulating a bad thing, right?

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So you have something that can only come about as a result of sin, that's the only way that it's gonna come about, it's only gonna come about as a result of sin, then you have the

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Bible come along and basically just regulating it and saying at that point, well, here's the consequences of it for you, if you don't listen to principle number one, here's what's gonna happen to you at this point, and, you know, that,

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I mean, like, the issue is, like, you think about society, like, now we don't really have a societal mechanism at this point to even handle anything along those lines, so, you know, guy just gets a woman pregnant and she's on her own and, you know, the kid doesn't have a father for the rest of his life and it's all a mess, so basically, you just have a situation where God is regulating the worst -case scenario, if that makes sense.

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Petey Well, every time you read, every time, at least every time that I've read those passages where God is giving commands, you know, for how men ought to treat their wives in these certain scenarios that we're discussing now, they always read as punishments, if that makes any sense.

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Like, they never read as, you know, the Bible says that to find a wife is to find a good thing, but then when you read these passages, they never read like the man found a good thing, if that makes sense.

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David Yeah, he's made his life harder on him, right? Petey Right, right, yeah, and that's what I mean, you know, that's not a comment on, the women, the individual women that he's finding as a comment on, they always read like, well, you're facing the consequences of your actions now as opposed to you found a wife, you know, and so,

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I think that's, that just seems like the natural reading of them when you look at it.

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Jared Yeah, I mean, you think about this, so, basically, what I'm trying to say is, in my mind, I was trying to explain why

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God regulates this thing instead of, because it didn't make sense, they would regulate it, but then, I mean, there is like a due to the hardness of men's heart, you have to figure out what you're going to do along those lines, right, kind of thing.

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So, I mean, there is a situation where something comparable, I mean, slavery is a complex situation, and I'm not trying to speak to the entirety of issues surrounding slavery, but there is like a certain aspect of slavery that the idea of like slavery that is comparable to this in the sense that, you know, the

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Bible absolutely does like prohibit the idea of man -stealing, you're not allowed to go enslave someone, right?

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But then, like, there is an idea that like if you were to rob someone blind, and then you don't have any money to pay for it anymore, right?

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Like you don't, so, you rob them blind, you spend all their money and waste it all and whatever else, and you can't pay it back now, you have to make restitution somehow, and like, if the only way you're going to be able to make restitution is, like, the only way you're going to be able to make restitution is to work for this person and be their slave for a while in order to pay it off in that kind of society.

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And so, you look at that, you say, hey, yeah, well, is that a endorsement of slavery or something like that?

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So, God is legislating certain kinds of slavery in that way, is that like an endorsement of it in that kind of context?

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It's like, well, no, it's, but you have to figure out what to do when men sin stupid ways, sin in stupid ways, right?

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So, in a similar way, like, I don't, the only way you're, if Matthew 19, like,

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Jesus' infallible interpretation of Exodus 20 in Matthew 19, 9, I say to whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality and marries another, commits adultery,

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Jesus is prohibiting polygamy there. So, because he's prohibiting, like, there's no lawful way to enter into a polygamist relationship, but if you get, like, the idea is, like, there's no lawful way to do this, but you can under, because you're a sinner, find yourself in a situation where you've made a second wife, right?

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So, in that kind of context, then, like, the Bible's saying, well, you need to recognize it, what you did, and deal with it, right?

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So, but then, like, in our society, the part of the problem is just to say that we don't really have the categories for that kind of thing anymore because we don't really view virginity as being anything.

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We don't view sexual purity as being anything. We don't really think that anything happens, like, spiritually or physically even when two people fornicate, right?

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So, we basically, it's basically kind of like a handshake that you're not allowed to make, and then, but then if you do, it's like, well, oops,

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I mean, so what, right? But you don't, I mean, like, oops, like, meaning, like, you could shake someone's hand and then you go wash your hand in the sink and you're, you know, even if they had a dirty hand or something like that, you're fine, but that's not really the way

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Bible presents sex. Do you see what I'm saying? It's not like that. It's not like, like, it's, when you do that, the

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Bible says you receive in yourself the due penalty for your errors. Yeah.

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I mean, basically, like, the idea is when you do that, you're defiling yourself physically, spiritually, everything else, right?

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This is an act of consummation of a marriage that you've done to someone that you haven't married, right?

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And so, now, like, so the idea is that that's really bad. So, I mean, I think with that kind of explanation for, with that kind of thought process in mind,

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I can see why you would regulate polygamy in a society filled with sinful people, while at the same time, there being no lawful way to enter into it.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. So, with that being said, the, you know, the regulations of polygamy essentially being punishments in and of themselves, why do, you know, you mentioned this passage earlier,

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I wanted to come back to it. Why then would God look at someone like David and then give him more wives?

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You know, so, I mean, this is, you know, because at this point, we're talking about, like,

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God is almost seemingly gifting

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David with wives, but then if God views having multiple wives as a bad thing, why would he give that as a gift to anyone?

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Yeah, sure. So, in order to be a king, the king was responsible to personally sit down and write the law, right?

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So, the king is personally supposed to write out a copy of the law himself. And, you know, at that point in David's reading, he should have read

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Deuteronomy 17, 17, which says, neither shall we multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he greatly increase silver or gold for himself.

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So, I mean, like, the idea is just to say that he should have that part. And the idea is, and this, you know, the reason why we're even asking this kind of question is because Saul made a mess of it to begin with, right?

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So, like, meaning, like, Saul created the harem, and then when Saul dies and David takes over as king, then you have the harem of women that something has to, you have to do something with, right?

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So, I mean, David had already, I think, taken on multiple wives at that point anyways.

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But, like, I mean, the idea though is just to say when God's recognizing he gave David these wives, that's not an approval of him having them.

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It's just an acknowledgement that everything that God gives to anyone, like, everything that anyone has is a gift.

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I mean, that's what the New Testament says, like, what do you have that you've not received? And if you've received it, like, why do you pretend like it's not a gift, right?

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So, everything that anyone has been, everything that anyone has is a gift given to God, given by God, right?

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So, everything you have is a gift. Now, that doesn't mean it's, like, a good thing. So, I mean, that doesn't mean it's, like, good for your sanctification, right?

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So, you think about it, like, along those lines, Deuteronomy 17, 17 says, you shall not multiply wives for yourself unless art turned away from the

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Lord. Like, there's already a prohibition against this. And, you know, when God's basically just acknowledging the situation, like, hey, like, you know, obviously, if one wasn't enough, two isn't enough, three isn't enough, four isn't enough, it's never going to be enough, right?

22:13

God's… Pete Yeah, well, and it's interesting too that, and maybe you were going there with this, but in that Deuteronomy 17, 17, you know, there's the command, neither shall he multiply wives for himself.

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Well, why? Yeah, because his heart will turn away from the

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Lord if he pursues multiple wives. Jared Which is what David's heart did, okay? So, I mean, and then what

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Solomon's heart did, like, that's the whole point, like, you shouldn't do this because there are consequences to that. So, if you're going to do that,

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I mean, like, the thing is, yes, like, that, like, when men go this route, you have to figure out what you're going to do with it, right?

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So, at that point, like, you think about what's happening there, at that point, you know,

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Saul has multiple wives. I mean, it just, put yourself in the position of one of these women,

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I'm particularly, I mean, what a nightmare to be one of Solomon's wives who basically is just a sex slave, right?

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I mean, that's what they are, I mean, they're, I mean, you have marriage where you're supposed to have a man, like, and a wife, wife is going to be a helper suitable to that man.

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And you think about these kinds of situations where you have 300 wives, 700 concubines or whatever, I mean, these are basically just sex slaves, that's what they are for you.

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I mean, like, you couldn't even cycle through them all, like, once a year, you know what

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I'm saying? If you had multiple wives every day, you know, like, it would take you a year to them to get their one special night with you, you know, where you finally, and maybe talk to them for a few minutes once a year or something, you know?

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Like, you think about that, whatever that is, that's not God's picture of marriage, like, it's just a nightmare, it's just a disaster.

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But then it also, I mean, it leads to, I mean, David had the same temptations that Solomon had at that point to where, like, if you think that, like, the answer to satisfaction in marriage is going to be to have more than one, but it wasn't good enough for David.

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I mean, David saw Bathsheba and he's like, hey, I'd like another one, right? Like, these aren't enough for me. So, I mean,

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God, in that kind of framework, God's saying, hey, I gave you your master's house and your master's wife into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and if this were too little,

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I would've added much more within, like, the idea is just to say that the implied answer is it's not too little, right?

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Like, the implied answer is, like, it's not, okay? Meaning, like, if God thought he needed more than he designed human beings to have, he could've given

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David way more than that, but then he'd just turn out like Solomon, right? With a bunch of, which is why he warned them not to do this in the first place, right?

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So, like, the idea is just to say that, hey, yeah, he, like, God gave David his master's house and, like, there were entailments to that.

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Now David inherits the harem. So, David is in the position that he's in because God put him in that position.

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He has all of these wives now, and, like, they're never, like, to a, if your heart is filled with lust, they're never gonna be enough.

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That's the point. It's never gonna be enough, you know? So, yeah. So, I think,

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I mean, so, the short answer is just to say I think it's just a statement of fact. Everything that anyone has is a gift, and I think you let

25:34

Jesus' words in Matthew 19, 9 interpret it all for you, for sure. So, speaking of Jesus' words, you know, one, probably one of the passages, now that, you know, now that we're an hour in, probably one of the passages that most

25:48

Christians who would say, well, yeah, polygamy's obviously wrong, one of the passages that they're probably thinking of is

25:56

Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, right? Because the passage seems to explicitly condemn anything other than a monogamous relationship between a husband and his one wife.

26:12

Jared May I, Matthew, 528. Pete Yeah, or 528, yeah. Because it says, you know, this is

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Jesus speaking, he says, you've heard that it was said you shall not commit adultery, and then verse 28, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

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So, that seems pretty clear, right? I mean, just pretty open and shut. If they're not your wife, if you even desire them, so no action has been committed other than internally you have desired them,

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Jesus is saying you may as well have already slept with them. Jared Right, so you notice how he's expanding on you shall not commit adultery right there, and in Matthew 19, 9,

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I say to you, whoever divorces wife except for her sexual immorality, marries another, commits adultery.

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He's basically just coming along and telling you all the ways in which the Jews have distorted this, and now he's telling you what it really means.

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And what it really means is, you know, plural marriage is adultery, and you shouldn't even be desiring anyone outside of marriage, because that's adultery of the heart, right?

27:23

Tanner Right, yeah, and now, you know, you might read a verse like that and then wonder to yourself, how can anyone read that verse and then come away thinking, well, obviously

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God allows for a man to have multiple wives? And I wouldn't blame you for thinking that, but there are still people who look at those verses and say, yes, this doesn't affect my view of polygamy.

27:59

So, Tim, can you explain exactly what the argument is that's made to essentially try and explain away a passage like this from those who are pro -polygamy?

28:13

Tim Yeah, they're basically just saying that the word gunikos there for a woman can sometimes be translated woman or wife, and so they're basically trying to uphold the old definition,

28:22

I mean, the Jewish definition of adultery at that point. So, basically, they're rejecting

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Jesus's teaching on what adultery actually is. They're basically saying, hey, yeah, adultery is simply when a man has sex with a married woman, so then it says, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a, it could be woman or wife, so everyone who looks at a wife with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

28:52

So, they're saying this doesn't mean a generic woman, this means a wife, but then,

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I mean, that's obviously really clunky way to talk, like whose wife, their wife or someone else's wife, right?

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So, in order to actually communicate clearly, in order to actually communicate in a clear manner, you would need some kind of possessive, or some kind of pronoun there at some point, right?

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Or some kind of qualifier, some other words, like looks at another man's possessive pronoun, right?

29:33

Gunikos there with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in her heart. So, basically, they're saying, hey, yeah, that can mean woman or wife.

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So, basically, all it's saying is, if anyone looks at a wife, a wife, a generic wife, not theirs with lustful intent has already committed adultery within their heart.

29:52

But I mean, it's, just go down a few verses and you'll see the same kind of thing. So, it was also said, whoever divorces a wife, let him give him certificate of divorce.

30:03

No, it says, whoever divorces his wife, right? So, tein gunikai atu, basically, right?

30:10

So, you have the possessive pronoun there, his. So, whoever divorces his woman or his wife, let him give a certificate of divorce.

30:20

So, often when this word gunikos is used in like the sense of wife, you're going to have some kind of indication, like meaning like, why women submit to your husband, right?

30:36

So, you're going to have something in the context telling you woman is meant to be wife there. So, like the word husband or his wife, right?

30:45

His woman, his wife. So, yeah. But this is one of those things where it's just, this is why this is a topic that's pretty concerning is because you do have individuals who basically have given themselves permission to lust after any unmarried woman they want.

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They can only not lust after like married women at that point because they're defining this as like, lust is basically just desiring, like lust, like the idea of the lust itself is, it's only when you desire another man's wife in that way.

31:21

And so, you can't lust after someone's wife. And then also in the other sense, like, yeah.

31:32

But I mean, go ahead. Pete That's kind of what I wanted to move into was,

31:39

I think what's really concerning for me is I'm always suspicious of the person who, anytime they're defining something that God calls sin, they're defining it in a way to ensure that they are not the one committing sin.

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I'm always suspicious of the person who constantly, I mean, just constantly thinks that they're not committing sin.

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And that sounds silly, like who even does that? But a lot of people do this all the time where they're not afraid to call something sin, but then they simultaneously will tell you that whatever that sin is, they're not doing it.

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And in my mind, this is seeming to be one of those examples for a few different reasons.

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I think the first one being like, okay, number one, especially in our modern society, what is even the point of a polygamous marriage?

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What's the point? Like, what do you gain from that that you cannot gain from a monogamous marriage?

32:55

So, you have that question going on, and then you also have the, like, even in this

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Matthew context, I mean, the whole point of the passage is Jesus is sitting there, he's addressing the

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Jews who think they've got the law of God nailed down, and Jesus is coming along and essentially showing them that it's been thousands of years at this point, and you still don't have it.

33:23

You still don't understand it. Jared Yeah, I mean, they should have known, I mean, because Job says, I've made a covenant with my eyes, how then could

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I gaze at a betula, at a virgin? Essentially, he's saying the same thing. They should have known this at the very beginning.

33:36

There was enough in the law to where they should know this. But I mean, even if you were to grant the idea that, okay, well, maybe it could be a woman, or a wife there, and whatever else.

33:55

I mean, the whole Matthew 19 .9, it's clear. Jesus tells you that in Matthew 19 .9,

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I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery. I mean, that's clear.

34:11

There's no wiggle room in there. The Greek is clear. There's nothing going on. Everyone knows what you're talking about there.

34:18

Meaning, that only makes sense if the only way that you can marry another person without committing adultery is if you have a legitimate divorce, okay?

34:31

So, if you can't marry another person without, like, the idea is if you can't marry another woman without committing adultery, then,

34:43

I mean, if you could just take a second wife, this verse would never apply, right?

34:49

Like, if you could do that without sin, right? So, Jesus would say, I say to you, you know, well, instead of committing adultery, just take a second wife so that you can.

35:00

Petey Yeah, that verse is irrelevant, or it's obsolete, or whatever, but it doesn't make sense anymore if it works that way.

35:08

Jared But this is what the Jews are, I mean, they're ignoring the entire narrative structure of the

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Bible. They're ignoring how polygamy goes bad at every single point. They're ignoring the origin of polygamy.

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They're ignoring the definition of marriage, and they've created an asymmetrical standard.

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So, I mean, there are different asymmetrical standards in the Bible between men and women and everything else.

35:37

I don't, in principle, have a problem with that, but then when that asymmetrical standard is basically saying that a man has the, like, the ability to, you know, basically have, like, sleep with as many women as he wants and his wife doesn't, it does make you think, well, maybe is there something like, is this an example of men using their authority improperly in order to get themselves off the hook for their natural inclinations, which

36:05

I would say that, yeah, I mean, God's obviously given men 10 times testosterone as women. They obviously have way more libido than women, but is this just sinful men using their power in order to justify doing, like, sinning with impudence, right, at that point?

36:18

And based on Jesus' words, I mean, obviously, that's what's happening. There's no lawful way to go about doing this.

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You should be like Job making a covenant with your eyes. You know, how could you, like, Job, right, who is blameless and put forward as a good example, and then you have him, like, telling you what he did, and then the text telling you, and all this,

36:40

Job did not sin. So, I think that there's, you should be following his example and that's how

36:46

Jesus is basically taking the same stance as Job there. So… Pete Well, I think, you know, our general knee -jerk response when we're seeing any of these passages where Jesus is seemingly expanding, you know, the broadness of a certain command,

37:09

I don't think he actually is. He is from the Jews' perspective, but he's definitely clarifying it because the

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Jews had far too narrow of an understanding of this command, you shall not commit adultery.

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And so, Jesus was explaining that they were far too narrow in their definition. I feel like your knee -jerk response in that scenario is not to then continue to narrow it further when you read a passage like this and say, well, he's not widening it that much.

37:43

You know, I would be extremely wary in wanting to try and narrow down the clarification that Jesus is giving.

37:58

But then even beyond that, the other thing that really, really kind of, I just don't get when it comes to those who are arguing for polygamy is, you know, like I already mentioned, what does it even accomplish?

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Like, what are you gaining out of this unless you're, you know, what are you gaining unless you're going for the

38:20

Solomon route or the David route, right? Where it's essentially just, you're just lusting.

38:27

And then, you know, what do you do with the, what do you do with these very clear passages that we've mentioned already?

38:36

What do you do with the fact that there really isn't a positive mention of polygamy in the

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Bible? And then on top of all that, you have the, you know, the Bible essentially opens with a marriage, right?

38:47

So, Adam and Eve, Eve is created for Adam. They consummate their marriage.

38:53

That's the beginning of the Bible, essentially. That's the beginning of human history is two people get married.

38:59

And then at the end of history, at the end of time when, you know, Jesus has already come back, he's come back for the church, we've been reunited with Christ face -to -face, it's described as a marriage.

39:12

You know, it's described as a marriage between, you know, a bride and groom. One single bride, one single groom.

39:20

And, you know, that's not meant to be some kind of like, you know, we're going to meet

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Jesus with a sloppy wet kiss or whatever, but it is like, it's meant to be, that marriage is meant to, marriage is meant to be a picture, right?

39:35

And so, all of a sudden, that picture doesn't make nearly as much sense. Jared So, yeah, the polygamous argument there, and I mean,

39:41

I could just kind of point out a few dumb arguments they make. And I consider these stupid arguments, like,

39:47

I mean, I think that there are some that are worth more merit, but these are just dumb. Like, so, they'll say that Jesus has two brides,

39:54

Israel and the church, right? So, Jesus is a polygamous, but then the issue is Jesus followed

40:00

Matthew 19, 9, he wrote Israel a certificate of divorce, right? And so, his bride is the church now, and they'll say, ah, but look, like, you know, church is filled with multiple people, so he's the, they're all individually his bride or whatever like that.

40:15

It's like, this is, Jesus is not my husband, okay?

40:23

This is an analogy, this is a metaphor. Like, the church is pictured as a whole, as the bride of Christ, I am not individually married to Jesus, he's not like the ultimate

40:35

Mormon polygamist or something like that, who has, you know, all the church individually as individual brides to him.

40:44

I mean, that would be like, reversal and weirdness on a level that I can't possibly fathom. So, I mean,

40:49

I consider those to be just kind of stupid arguments that are not really worth dignity.

40:54

I mean, you're asking the question, what do people gain from this? I would say that there's different types, as I said from the beginning,

41:00

I think there's different types of people who are reacting to this kind of discussion.

41:07

I think most people are probably not even aware that this is becoming a significant topic of discussion that people want to hear about.

41:16

And I think their impulse is just to go with the New Testament, go with Jesus' words, which are clear, and then not really know how to interact with a lot of the other stuff that's happening.

41:26

And I would say that's better than nothing, but I mean, it doesn't really put them in a great position to interact with this topic, which

41:33

I'm sure we're gonna, our society is gonna change on pretty soon. So, I mean,

41:39

I'm not - They already are. They already are, by the way. I'm not a prophet, I'm the son of the prophet, but I imagine that we're gonna be having plural marriages pretty soon.

41:46

And if you don't figure out what the text is saying, then you're not gonna have anything to say. So, I mean,

41:52

I do think there are people, like there is a type of person who is more biblically minded, who is going to not necessarily have answers to all these questions or think, or basically give the polygamy arguments a much more weight than they deserve.

42:05

And I think what is happening is they're leaning on the Jewish understanding of adultery and they're not prioritizing

42:11

Jesus' infallible interpretation of Exodus 20 in the way that they should. So, Jesus tells us what

42:17

Exodus 20 means. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, and he's not adding anything to it.

42:24

He's telling you his meaning, his true meaning, and he does that in Matthew 5 and Matthew 19, so you should listen to him when he tells you what it means.

42:32

And those two passages are very, very clear to anyone who has eyes to see.

42:39

I mean, this is why the confessions come along and Westminster Confession, Second Lenten Baptist Confession, spell this out, that marriage is only lawful between a man and a woman, that's it, because Jesus told us that.

42:55

Jesus clarified it. We should have known it based on Genesis 2 -24, but they obviously made a mess of it and Jesus came along and said, hey, you should have read that opening verse there.

43:05

It was right there for you. So, I think there's different types of people.

43:12

I think there's some people who really just don't want to go beyond what's written and they're basically saying, hey,

43:19

I'm persuaded by the Jewish arguments there, but I would never do it myself.

43:29

So, I mean, I've had people interact with me along those lines where they say, I would never do this myself. I don't have any impulse to do this, but I'm not going to declare something wrong that I don't see the

43:38

Bible saying it's wrong. So, I'm not going to use that language. I may think it's foolish and unwise, or maybe most of the

43:44

Bible is presenting it as non -ideal, but then when you live life in a fallen world, maybe

43:49

God could have been more clear about if it was so obviously wrong, it seems like He should have said so more directly.

43:57

That's kind of the argument they're making. And so, I think there's people like that that are not actively trying to normalize this idea.

44:08

They just realize that we've messed up in so many other areas and don't have necessarily wonderful answers for this.

44:14

And so, that's that. But then I do think that I've known a lot of guys who have been very much into this topic.

44:22

I won't say a lot, but I've known guys who are very much into this topic because they are watching

44:30

Game of Thrones and stuff like that. And basically, there's a thought process that has led them to a point where as a man, they've adopted these asymmetrical standards so that they can basically - it's just a cloak for a vice.

44:48

It's a cover for their lust. And knowing them, that's what they're doing. You see what I'm saying?

44:54

This is just about unrestrained male lust based on higher testosterone levels that they've justified by falling into the same trap the

45:05

Jews fell into that Jesus corrected, you know? And so, I mean, I think if you - there's a reason,

45:11

I mean, the Jews fell into that trap because they didn't - they basically had a kind of caution to say,

45:21

I don't want to read too much into Genesis 2 -24, but then all the New Testament writers and Jesus read a lot in there that they should have seen.

45:30

You see what I'm saying? So, I think that's kind of what's happening, but yeah. Tanner You don't have many women advocating for polygamy.

45:39

Jared Well, you don't have any examples in the Bible of women who liked it either, you know? So, I mean, basically, it just turns into a catfight if that's what you want, you know?

45:47

But I mean, the thing is, the kind of person that will dislike everything we've said right now, they look at that as a sign that, well, that must be right.

45:56

It's like, no, I mean, what woman would want to share her husband with a man, you know? And I mean,

46:01

I think there's so many things even in the Old Testament that if you take the standard view, like, there are details there you should notice, you know?

46:10

So, drink water from your own cistern, flowing water from your own well, right? So, not drink water from your own cisterns, flowing water from your own wells.

46:21

Should your streams be scattered abroad, streams of water in the street. Let them be for yourself alone and not for strangers with you.

46:29

Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wives of your youth. Is that what it's? Tanner But you see how,

46:37

I mean, like, as you read the Bible, you're going to see things like that. And so, what's being demanded of you is you basically just ignore the singular stuff like that.

46:46

But it's like, that's not what the biblical writers do, man. Like, Jesus is pointing out, and they will become one flesh.

46:51

He says two will be one flesh. That's what it meant, you know? So, like, these pronouns and these things like that, they're very important.

47:01

And I mean, even case endings, you know? So, yeah, I think there's, if you were to,

47:10

I think the Bible is like, it is very clear on this from New Testament to Old. It's just a matter of,

47:15

I think there's a certain kind of person who wants it to, demands that it be much more explicit than what it actually is.

47:24

But I don't see how you can get more explicit than Matthew 19 .9. So, I think you just leave it to God. He told you what it meant, you know?

47:30

So, just go with it. Pete Okay, fair enough. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up this conversation.

47:37

And so, I thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions and for, you know, talking through all that. And I definitely think this is one, personally,

47:45

I think this is going to be one of those topics that continues to grow in popularity, unfortunately, from the

47:54

Christian, you know, the Christians out there who are advocating for polygamy, as well as non -Christians who are advocating for polygamy.

48:05

And, you know, I remember last year seeing some poster about essentially trying to normalize the way that people in general view polygamy, not from like a

48:20

Christian perspective, but just anyone, you know, anyone can marry however many people they want, and as many people they want can be in a relationship together, in a marriage together.

48:32

And so, I think this is definitely something that while it doesn't seem like it's an extremely pressing matter right now,

48:39

I think it'll probably very quickly become one, unless God intervenes and, you know, and grants like national repentance,

48:50

I mean, widespread repentance on a wide scale, then, you know, then I don't think it'll happen then, but probably more likely, it seems like we're on a path down just more and more wickedness and debauchery.

49:06

And so, I personally think that this will be a growing problem in the future.

49:11

And so, Christians need to understand what, you know, what do we do with all these arguments? How do we dispel them?

49:19

How do we stay faithful to the Bible? How do we obey God's word and pursue wisdom and all of these things?

49:26

So, thank you, Tim, for answering all that. We want to say thank you to everyone who is listening to the podcast.

49:33

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49:58

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50:12

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50:19

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50:26

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51:04

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