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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -four -one And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line I wanted to start off the program today with my sincerest.

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Thanks to everyone who has written in on the testimonials

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Testimonies at ailmen .org even the one person who wrote the nasty gram

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That we immediately posted so everybody could see what those folks actually are all about but That's the only one that we've gotten all the rest have been extremely positive and I just I don't know.

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Maybe it's just because we started off as such a Small ministry and still are a very small ministry that's to know that there is a special ops guy somewhere over in Iraq or Afghanistan or other parts unknown

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Run around with an iPod listening to this and that we encourage him and help him and To hear about people that are soon to be graduating from seminary and They are graduating seminary because of one of my books or because of a debate

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People that were brought out of various and sundry cults and isms people whose confidence in In the in the

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Word of God has been established just all sorts stuff like that I I Was not really aware

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Until I started reading these emails Fascinating connection Maybe that's starting to explain a few things to me a fascinating connection here, and that is that a

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Number of these emails. I'm not talking about one or two. I'm talking about a pretty decent

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Representation of the whole group of emails that we've gotten and if you're wondering what we're all talking about if you look at the blog

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I've asked folks to write to us at testimonies that a omen org. Let us know what the ministry is meant to you

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I'm gonna be posting those over time. This is in celebration of our 25th anniversary began in October of 1983 a pretty decent percentage of Folks have come into contact with us by the study of the

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King James only issue and Then they've gotten hooked reform theology

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Which makes a little bit of sense because most of the King James only folks not all but but most of them are really really opposed to reform theology as as a whole and so you know

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I can see how that worked, but it's Fascinating to read this stuff it really is and So I've really really enjoyed reading these and as they are continuing to come in there

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I'm gonna be slowly starting to post some of them during the course of the month and Hopefully you will be encouraged as well so Thank you very much for those of you who've taken the time to to write in and it is fascinating to see how people stumble across our stuff sometimes by a very circuitous means sometimes very recently

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And I could not get out of my head the one one fellow who mentions

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Basically encountering another fellow who was brought out of the way international through the

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Trinity book and mentioning the philosopher and the geek playing air guitars to the openings opening chords of the dividing line

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I Okay, all right Okay, I can't get that that picture out of my out of my head, so it's it's great

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So I'm very very very thankful for for all of that now

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Before we get started today, and I'm noticing that the phones are very active. We already have three people online so I Wanted to make some comments today, and I'm probably get myself in trouble for so doing

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But you have to be living in a lead mine to not know that there are a lot of things going on in the world right now

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I was just checking the Dow was down 350 points today or so and And There's all sorts of discussions about quote -unquote bailout plans and depressions and food lines and soup lines and the 1930s all over again and and things like that and and you know

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Russia's getting to be a bit of a problem again, and There's all sorts of questions about Pakistan, and they've got nuclear weapons, and it's

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I could certainly understand Jesus description about people fainting for fear if I didn't believe

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God was in control and sovereign over the world this would be a really really ugly time and with our technology now uglier than it's ever been in the past and As I look especially at Western cultures, and I look at Europe I've got a big map over on the the wall

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In my studio here, I bought it back in 1991 It still reflects the so actually it does reflect the

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Soviet Union even though it was 91 I Had purchased it as I recall when

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I was teaching church history And I look over at at Europe and the

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Scandinavian countries the UK and Every day

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I read about how those nations are self -destructing How they have bought into this self -loathing of their own history they they don't believe that their own national heritage is worth preserving and so they they basically have just thrown their doors wide open and They've bought into such a deep

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Stultifying humanism that it is just just incredible to see and You see the

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Islamization of Europe taking place at an amazing rate the destruction of Europe the destruction of the

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Russia in just the fact that Women are not having babies. There are more abortions and there are live births and This kind of thing taking place and you are truly left

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Wondering what in the world's going on you see the very same things happening here in the

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United States There are many people who want to see us follow in the steps of Europe And I think by the time

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Europe is gone We will realize we're too far down the slope to stop the same inevitability from taking place here and so I think about The situation in In our land today and I'm gonna have to take a very very very unpopular

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Perspective here. I really am. I'm afraid it's unpopular. In fact, I think in some

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European countries, it would be illegal and what I mean by that is I'm gonna have to mention something that within the church and Within culture.

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You're just not supposed to mention at all and that is something called the wrath of God I Know that as good secular humanists and many people in the church remain secular humanists

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They have not received significant instruction in the formation of a

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Christian worldview and have such little exposure to the Word of God that In essence, they're humanists with the religious veneer but in in looking at the

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The whole concept of the wrath of God humanists looking at the world

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When you see bad things happening God has nothing to do with that God God's nowhere to be found in all of that God has no purposes that he's working out.

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There is nothing we can learn by looking at the punishment of sin Paul was just a

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Really closed -minded individual there in Romans 1 when he talks about the wrath of God being poured out present tense

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Upon the sin of men. No, that's a that doesn't actually happen and So many people even in the church simply refuse to Do what

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Christians have always done up until the modern time when we see? Even even as late as the

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Civil War or the War of Northern Aggression depending on which side of the Mason -Dixon you're on even at that time leaders on both sides saw this as as evidence of God's judgment upon the nation and Even during World War two it was not unusual at all for people to lead in prayers

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Who were in public life? Praying that God would would bless and would protect from would protect from Evil and it didn't have a problem identifying people like Adolf Hitler is evil and things like that There are many in our nation today that can't even identify

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Ahmadinejad as as being evil or people like that as being morally evil because the

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Concept of moral evil has been abandoned and is is no longer a functional part of our thinking That certainly shouldn't be for Christians, but as I said, there is so much of what is called

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Christianity today that really has very little to do with a

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Biblical definition of that term and so I wanted to point out that When we talk about praying for our country, it's a difficult thing.

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We are to pray for our leaders But what does that mean to pray for our leaders that they're going to be blessed that they're going to be blessed with what?

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after 9 -11, I Ruffled a lot of feathers by coming on this program and by very strongly asserting that what

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God needs to bless us with is repentance and It is my experience

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In reading the scriptures that repentance normally comes as a result of judgment

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Over and over again God brought the ancient nation of Israel to its knees and it was only in that subjugation and only in that loss of physical property the loss and military that those people were brought to a recognition that They needed to look to God for their salvation look to God for their resources and and come to him in repentance

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I Cannot help in looking at what's going on in Finances in the

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United States, but to consider Just how deeply entrenched and idolatry of things is in our culture and We're all guilty of this even

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Christians are very guilty of this We are so attached to our luxuries

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We are so attached to our things that we We see that as as the most important element in our lives and if we were to lose those things

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Oh my, you know, even if we still had life and even if we could still serve God if we had to live below our standards

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Would we truly still be showing up on Sunday morning to sing praises to God? How many people would be at these?

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Massive mega churches with people like Joel Osteen smiling at them If there was true

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Depression like suffering going on and in our society very very few obviously And of course all these complete false teachers and false prophets running around having people put their mortgage payments on the stage

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They can get a blessing from God They're there. They'd be long gone at that point in time to which certainly would be a blessing on everybody in reality but as we think about that and we think about our own attachment to things and We think about our own love of things and the fact that we all have to consider where our priorities really are and I'm talking to myself.

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I Recognize that in many Christians there is a very strong attachment to status and things and comfort and and Just think how fast we are to complain against God when any of that is even threatened let alone taken away

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When we can look at other people and and be jealous of what they have rather than being content with what

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God has given to us We are truly the the children of our time but as we look at the financial degradation of of our nation and the fact that it it seems like those who are in charge

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You know just have no problem in in signing a check and in debting my grandchildren

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Just just poof just drop of a hat and the fact that our nation is changing It's changing extremely rapidly and it's moving toward a form of government that most of us the older generations.

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Don't Don't didn't think would ever exist here. I Have to look at our government and I have to go as a

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Christian How on earth can we not expect God's wrath to be falling upon us

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Who is the head of the Banking Committee in the House of Representatives? Barney Frank Barney Frank is an open homosexual

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Barney Frank is well known as a as a homosexual unabashed unrepentant and If anyone says anything about that they're the they're the evil ones no one can call him to repentance

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You're you would be considered engaging in a hate crime if you dared to call the man to repentance, that's just another alternative lifestyle and The Speaker of the

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House represents the San Francisco area this past week The San Francisco area had once again, it's 25th

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Folsom Street Fair Now if you have little children listening or if you have the speakers up too loud

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You might want to turn it down just a little bit because if you don't know what the Folsom Street Fair is I? Am in no way shape or form having researched this for books that I've written

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I've written on homosexuality I've debated this issue a number of times and so Unfortunately, I have had to see things and read about things.

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I really would rather not have But the Folsom Street Fair which took just took place there with the blessings of the government

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Involves not just public nudity but the most debauched degraded open sexual activity on the streets that you can even begin to imagine and since I was raised in a fairly sheltered way

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It was shocking to me and researching these things, too. I Just couldn't have even imagined that people could do the things that they do

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And in places like this this happens Right out in the open and there is a massive public rejoicing in Spitting on God's law and spitting in God's face.

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It's a celebration of rebellion. It's a celebration of debauchery of degenerate activity it is an absolute dehumanizing of Everyone that is involved it truly goes

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I think beyond anything Sodom Gamorrah ever thought of it is very much the same attitude and It has been well said many times

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That If if God does not bring his wrath to bear upon San Francisco and places like it.

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He's gonna have to apologize to Sodom Gamorrah Well, there is a truth to that and I think we see this wrath coming upon us when we have sodomites when we have opening open practicing homosexuals in a position of Controlling our money and our economic system.

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God's wrath is being poured out upon us We cannot pray that God will guide

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Individuals like this when those individuals don't know him don't want to know him and are in open

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Rebellion against everything that he could possibly want them to do and so How do you pray?

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I mean when you when the scriptures tell us to pray for your leaders It doesn't mean that you're necessarily praying for the day be blessed with long life

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You might well be praying that God would grant them repentance Or that God would remove them and give to us godly leaders

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But we have leaders today in and it's not just you know, I know that I mentioned two names are both

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Democrats We all know that unfortunately While you might have the the disgusting debauchery of homosexuality the promotion of Same -sex marriage, which is an oxymoron in of itself the promotion of partial birth abortion by those on the left and of course the homosexuality and the murder of unborn children all just a part of the the society of death the

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Absolute hatred that people have for life and The the God -ordained means by which life is to come into existence

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Yeah, you have that on the left You have a lot of compromise in those areas in the right, but on the right you have not only

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The same type of debauched personal morals. How many times have people been caught on the on the right?

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Engaging in adultery and cheating on their spouses even in homosexuality Irony is they immediately get kicked out on the right because we're not supposed to do that.

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You're an immigrant on the left I guess it's sort of okay, you know because well, it's just being open and there is a tremendous amount of hypocrisy there

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But there's also a tremendous amount of greed there is there is a tremendous amount of Lack of concern for the poor and and business practices and things like that.

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So it's Washington as a whole is truly in a in a royal mess and You wonder how fast this could happen

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Pastor friend of mine back on Long Island has a picture on his wall of a

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Baptism taking place in a river. Yeah, he's a Baptist But it is a painting from the the

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Civil War period the War of Northern Aggression and It shows soldiers from both sides my recollection is

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I could be wrong I don't remember now which one it is but let's say it's the Union soldiers the northern soldiers are are having the baptism and the southern soldiers are standing on the other side of the bank and they as Christians are observing this it could be the other way around.

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I don't remember which one it was. The point was there was a massive Revival that took place during the

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Civil War if you can I can imagine why given the Absolute carnage that any of those battles produced

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That you did think a lot about life and death and eternal matters and things like that But You you saw in that in that context repentance and and a willingness to To accept what

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God says about what is right and wrong and how we're to behave and so on and so forth that kind of Repentance is what we need to be praying for for our nation and We as believers

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At a time like this have an opportunity to say these things When you have opportunity to speak to others

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But I know that that's not popular. I know What I'm saying is making a lot of people go.

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Are you kidding me? You you actually suggesting That Someone should say man.

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I can't believe You know, I just can't believe what's going on with with the financial system and that man credits hard to come by and go

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Yeah, you know we really should see this as a as a wake -up call from God that we need to start recognizing that he is the source of all of our of all of our earthly goods and that we should be thankful to him and that we should be

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Looking at how we can in a biblical fashion honor him with our with our possessions and maybe this should call us to repentance for the murder of unborn children and the the willingness that we have to promote and to Not put shame upon those who flaunt

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God's laws sexually and and and yeah, I I can see The utter shock on the face of The humanists in our in our society and you know

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The really sad thing is is I can see the shock on the face of most people who call themselves Christians at the very suggestion

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That one might speak in such a fashion and I know there are many people who go there goes white again

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He's a nutcase But you know, I really really think that I've got a pretty strong biblical stand here and I certainly know that historically up until only a generation ago

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What I'm saying right now would have been the norm for any Bible believing pastor minister professor teacher whatever

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And it is only with the the massive degradation both in the church and society that's taken place in my lifetime that that has really changed and so I Am you know,

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I cannot help but see what's going on in the world I'm not a news junkie, but I try to keep you know up with what's going on on some level without becoming obsessed with it as I think some people might become obsessed with it this time in our history and I just wanted to take a few moments at the beginning of the program today

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I know it's not an overly exciting topic but to Hopefully maybe encourage some of you who likewise have been thinking along these lines, but since so few people

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Will dare to talk about it. So few will dare to to say, you know This is this is

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God's wrath coming against Western society and Some people might even ask you do you think

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Islam could be used of God in that way? And I cannot I cannot say that I don't

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Again looking at the Old Testament looking how how God has he God used the Assyrians the

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Assyrians were horrible The the the Assyrians were brutal and yet he used the

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Assyrians. He used the Babylonians and He did so for his own purposes and I'm not saying there's a parallel that Western society is somehow

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God's people. It clearly isn't I Was I was mentioning to? The Muslims that were traveling with me down to San Diego debate weekend for last

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One of the one of the Muslims well, I'll say Osama Abdullah Identified America as a Christian culture, and I just I laughed

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I Laughed I said you've got to be kidding me. There are so few

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True believers in Jesus Christ in this culture. I Don't believe in any of those

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Christians, but that doesn't mean anything and if if if you make your your everyday decisions if you make your decisions about all of life and You just put a religious coding on if it's not ordered by the

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Lordship of Christ Well, that's another subject I won't get into it now, but The point is

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I think we have once again an opportunity to speak to the fact that Jesus Christ is is

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Kurios, Jesus is Lord. He is Lord over the nations and He will bless those nations that honor him and those that Insist upon engaging in so the self -destructive behavior and is the self -destructive behavior if he is the way the truth and the life then to spit in his face to to reward people like Bill Maher for being

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Blasphemers Is to say I wish to be destroyed.

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I wish to not experience life and We have an opportunity to speak to these things now we need to do so with wisdom

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You know, I've seen some Christians just come run up and bash somebody over the head with a bat instantly rather than Demonstrating you've actually thought these things through you that you have a self -conscious a

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Self -conscious worldview you think about these things deeply and seriously, but when you do then open your mouth and And speak so those are my thoughts on that subject.

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I have been Making a number of people wait for quite some time while I address that but hopefully that will be of some

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Some encouragement for those of you listening and Even in the far -flung reaches.

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So let's run through our phone calls here and talk with Bob real quick. Hi, Bob How are you?

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First of all, I just want to say what a pleasure to speak. Let's speak with you and hear you talk I've learned so much from listening your debates and your discussions.

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Really. I have it's amazing. Well, thank you But my question is actually this kind of ties into what you were just saying

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I was I've been reading a lot of the Old Testament and speaking some Jewish friends and The concept of the

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May Sacred Prophecies like for instance to Jewish or to do it of the

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Jewish faith Is that so the nation of Israel? Is that these are prophecies are talking about other words the nation of Israel is going to be the salvation of mankind

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What I'm wondering is is there a personal concept of salvation that you would know of in the

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Old Testament? Does that make sense? Well, I'm not sure how the two relate because while later

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Judaism does Personalize Israel in its dispersion and does so primarily to find a way around both

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Especially Messianic prophecies and especially Isaiah 53 which was not really a a

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Meaningful option at least at the time of Jesus. So that is I think a later reaction primarily to the rise of the

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Christian faith That's one thing but then personal salvation really is another issue

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That I don't know is directly related the first in the sense that Yeah, there's there's clearly

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References, especially in the Psalter and especially in the historical works and in David to his personal relationship to God that could not be

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Generalized and turned into some type of allegory for for Israel as a whole

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And so you do have you know calls for repentance you all you especially have

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The beginning of the development of the concept of the remnants in Israel after the destruction of Jerusalem and 586 and so on so forth so You don't have the fullness of that revelation nor really could you until after the incarnation the cross and the resurrection and the fact that Then you have the

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Old Testament references to this message going out to the whole world becoming fulfilled and the preaching of the gospel in that sense, but certainly

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Especially in the Psalter and especially in David Where you have the personal? References to his faith in God and his sinfulness and forgiveness and things like that.

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Certainly. It's it is there But Judaism you got to be careful

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You know today. There's all sorts of Judaism's. There's all sorts of groups within Judaism and Unfortunately, very few of them have a very high view of Scripture In many ways the the

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Jews of today have have been deeply Degraded by the same humanism.

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I mean in fact, I remember talking with Mitch Pacwa before a debate once and he

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Said to me said, you know, it's it's difficult when I go to Israel because it's the most atheistic nation on the earth

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I said what he says. Oh, yeah, it's it's Very few of the

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Jews that are living in Israel actually believe that God exists They're a very secular nation.

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Yeah, and and it's the same ironically the same thing in Italy At least especially northern Italy one of the most secular areas that we've been to as well.

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So You've got it you got to recognize that In talking with Jewish people today

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There's a vast difference between talking to a believing Jew Who actually believes that the

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Tanakh the the Torah the Nevi 'im and Ketuvim what we call the Old Testament is a revelation from God That's a small group within Judaism today, it really is so The the same problems with tradition that you see in the

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New Testament have only become far more Destructive over the centuries with the codification the mission on the

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Gemara into the Talmud and then Commentaries in the Talmud and so on so forth It's it's a sad thing to see but that's that's what's taking place.

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So Hope that's hope that helps. Sure Of Prophecies be later interpret or being interpreted as a state of Israel on the place of Jesus that Yeah, I mean, yeah the development of it does you can really see if you trace through the development of the

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Talmudic writings the the mission of the Gemara Even even in the translation of the Greek Septuagint sort of getting some deeper stuff here, but you can trace you can very clearly see the impact of the rise of Christianity and the resultant

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Interpretations on the part of the the Jewish leadership and the and the modification of their traditions and things like that that really does come as a result of Christianity and of course the split that takes place between Christianity and Judaism very very early on Which had very nasty results in many ways as well

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Especially once the Christianity that they're dealing with is is itself far separated from being truly biblical

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That's that gets really ugly, especially in the Middle Ages Let's talk

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With Andrew. Hi Andrew. How are you? Pretty good

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Okay, I don't know if you have time to deal with this or not right now, but I I was calling

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I wanted to ask you aside from The obvious but knowing Knowing the

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Bible back and forth. I'm interested in getting into apologetics in some way What what kind of things could a person do to prepare themselves so that you don't go make a fool of yourself

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You know pick a fight with somebody so to speak Make a fool of yourself because it turns out you don't know what you're talking about well first and foremost,

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I would strongly encourage you if if you have a desire to Reach out to those who have been given a false gospel or a false faith or to glorify

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Christ the defense of his truth There is a tremendous danger of ego and pride

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Apologetics Yeah Well, and and I see that a lot of people who feel attracted to it

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That's part of it. And so I would I would very strongly encourage

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Anyone who's thinking of doing that to take serious spiritual stock of why?

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You want to do that? I have young people who come up to me after they see me in a debate and they they're just all excited and jazzed now

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I'll get into apologetics. I do everything I can to throw cold water on them And that makes it that might surprise people

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But first of all, if I can dissuade you from doing it, then you weren't called to it in the first place Believe me after 25 years of doing this

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If you don't have the right reasons for doing it, you're not going to last in it for 25 years. I can assure you of that so But secondly be a part of the church the vast majority of apologists.

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I know of are not and that is I think a grave danger if you have

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Godly elders that you can go to and you can say I have a desire to To glorify

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Christ through the defense of his truth Would do you do you feel this would be a something that would be dangerous for me to do or could you give me guidance?

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so on so forth and For me you you need to be balanced In your teaching and being in the church is what's going to allow you to do that I think it's been a one one of my greatest advantages is that I'm not out going after one particular group

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I'm in a church. I have to teach with regularity. I have to teach people from a wide variety of backgrounds and That provides the balance that has become hopefully and again,

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I thank people for all the stuff they sent in That's one of the things been mentioned a number of times is the balance that we show there's there's a lot of apologetic material out

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There that is not balanced That loses its footing and part of that reason is that many of those people are not a part of the church

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They're not having to teach on the whole Council of God there there.

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They're only focused upon one area and you lose your balance. You lose your exegetical balance You lose your historical balance.

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And so I really believe that being a part of the church now I think I've mentioned this before on the program

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But back when we were distributing literature at the Easter pageant in the Mormon Church or up in Salt Lake City or even standing outside the

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District Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses with signs or something like that we would have people who would come up to us and ask to participate in that kind of apologetic outreach and We've pretty early on developed a rule

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We would say what church you're a member of and if they were not a member of a local Bible -believing church

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We didn't allow them to do it because we felt we would be exposing their souls to danger in so doing and So we are we take this very very seriously

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There are not many ministries that you will hear do what we do when we mention our financial needs like we have right now

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What's the first thing we say? Support your church first do what's right before God for your church.

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You've got anything left over Well, if you feel what we're doing is important, then then we need your assistance, but we believe in The local church we believe that's biblical

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Hebrews 13 17 tells you to be in subjection of those who have the leadership over you and if you don't know who those people are then you're in rebellion against God and You don't need to be pointing your fingers at somebody else when you yourself have a theological problem going on So you may be a little bit surprised at my answer so far because none of it has been study this get this

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Etc, etc. It's all about the foundation because Everybody you know and pretty much anybody in an evangelical church can go out and buy some apologetics books and and jump on their their

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White horse and chase off after the Mormon missionaries. It's not really all that difficult to do, but We've been doing this for 25 years now and as long as the

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Lord gives me life that's what I'm gonna be doing the rest of my life to and How can you do that?

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You got to have the foundation to start with? Yeah, go ahead Yeah, I was gonna say actually actually I really appreciate that answer and I that You know, you guessed

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I wasn't expecting you to go that way but that well, it's important because Andrew I have you know

39:04

I could say to you you've probably heard me say that the two classes that I took that were the most important were

39:09

Greek and church history and Knowing the biblical languages and knowing church history, but you see the danger that I see is that if you learn those things

39:20

Paul said knowledge puffs up. Yeah, and There is nothing more

39:27

Detracting from giving a proper and true answer than to do so in arrogance now I recognize that there are many in our society.

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They look at even a biblical answer They look at how the Apostle Paul answered something they say that he was arrogant.

39:41

So I'm not talking about that I'm not talking about false accusations of arrogance. I'm talking about if the

39:47

Apologist can look in his own heart and he's going I got him there boy.

39:53

Am I looking good? Yeah And only the apologist can answer that Asking For instance in a in a debate setting say asking a gotcha question just to make the guy look stupid, right?

40:07

Exactly Yeah, yeah Now, you know there are gotcha questions that are gotcha questions because the other guy just wasn't prepared to do a debate but they're it one of the illustrations

40:16

I could give you is I Have often counseled people when they are witnessing to say a

40:22

Mormon missionary or Jehovah's Witness something Oh, if I can interrupt you for a second, I tried that unprepared once and it just didn't go well

40:33

No, I fully understand that but I said to people many times you can be in a situation like that and You can see that you have put the other

40:43

Person in a position that they don't really have an answer to your question You have you have succeeded in making your point and at that point you have a choice.

40:51

There's this moment of uneasy silence and You can either press your advantage and force them to come up with an answer that they will then go their grave

41:00

Believing no matter how stupid it is and you've shut down any further opportunity of conversation or you can at that point say well

41:07

You know if you haven't had an opportunity of looking at that Why don't you take a chance to look at it and let's get let's get together and let's talk about again

41:14

In fact, can I give you another example that way you've opened up the door to more conversation?

41:19

You've given them room You've demonstrated that you're not in it just simply to run your sword through them and and Raise it in victory and so on so forth

41:26

But that takes discipline that takes having the proper motivation for being involved in apologetics

41:32

So you want to show somebody that you're more interested in? Getting to the truth than beating them exactly exactly and that again

41:40

I think that comes from balance and I think being in the church teaching in the church is what gives you that balance over I'll put this way.

41:48

That's what's given me. I hope that balance over time And it helps to keep you humble because the church is sort of designed to do that So so would you say then and I see this there's one question.

42:01

I'll let you go. I know you got somebody else waiting Um, I've been I'm kind of getting into this into this church

42:09

That it's a Baptist Church pastor by John Piper. Oh, yes, Bethlehem Baptist.

42:14

Uh -huh. Yeah good good preacher. Mm -hmm Now would you say because I'm also kind of interested in teaching when

42:21

I am More qualified to do that would be a good plan of action to just get in there start kind of soaking it up kind of Kind of get involved in the church where Openings seem to be and just kind of go from develop and mature from there

42:39

Well, I I have great confidence that at Bethlehem Baptist the elders would be individuals that you could approach once you have

42:50

Become a member of the church and they have an opportunity of observing you over time That's very very important that you could approach them.

42:58

You could express them your desires and that they could then Give you guidance as to the program of study and and to and to bring you into it in in in a way

43:08

I think is is appropriate. I've always Really flinched when people take like new converts

43:15

From Mormonism like that and they throw them out to lions to start teaching on Mormonism is like that You don't do that and the elders there

43:23

I think you're going to be the kind of elders that are going to want to have observed your life and to give you

43:31

Godly counsel as to how to proceed from there and to to go into your studies from there

43:36

But just one last thing because I do want to address this for other people might have a similar question When you do start your studies and you and you really are moving in that direction there's something to remember and aside from the dangers of The arrogance and things like that.

43:54

It is far more important to me that an apologist give a clear accurate

44:01

Insightful defense of the faith than they know everything there is to know about whatever group that is that they're talking to Part of the danger is to become such an expert on the minutiae of a particular group that you're ministering to That you lose your balance again and spend more time on that than you do in the study of the

44:18

Bible and the application Of the Bible and I'm staying in the Bible. I said I've said for years I'd rather have five people with me in Salt Lake City Who know the

44:27

Christian faith and can give a reason for their faith and give a clear presentation of the gospel Than 50 people who can rip and shred

44:33

Joseph Smith, but when it comes to giving a meaningful presentation of the gospel, they're lost They have no idea what they're doing.

44:39

So the emphasis should always be upon the truth not upon the air No, no, no the truth well enough that you can define it in distinction from exactly.

44:48

Okay. All right. Thank you. Dr White. Thank you, Andrew. All right. God bless. All right All right, excellent excellent phone calls so far and now we're gonna go talk to an old friend.

44:59

Hi Don, how you doing? Hey, fine, James. I should say. Yeah, dr. White. Oh, that's okay.

45:05

You know me as James I weren't you and you were at PR BC when I first came weren't you

45:11

I was You had just started there about the same time. I did. Yeah, 1989 And I guess there's still a few folks

45:19

Brick is still there. I hear brick is brick is is a stalwart Yeah, yeah bricks still there and the flocks are still there and the

45:28

Callahan's are still there So and of course the fries so we're we're moving along Well, please

45:35

Please tell him I say hello. And by the way, it was great on your

45:40

YouTube site, not just that you're Showing yourself preaching, but I really enjoyed seeing the entire service.

45:48

It kind of make me a bit of homesick there I bet it did and you will have to testify that about the only thing different In what you saw on that YouTube video was that Roxy found some flowers she liked

46:08

And The cameras right where I used to Also the first 30 minutes of the show was

46:22

Well spoken because there's I know you see it there. I saw it especially out in Phoenix.

46:28

There's a real Boldness and wickedness going on And with Bill Maher coming out with his movie

46:38

Religious where everybody's thinking it's it's funny and ha ha ha it's

46:45

There's some really sad times

46:54

You know and my wife thinks he's disgusting she said Yeah, well there there does seem to be a

47:04

Somewhat of a redrawing withdrawing of restraint in our society right now we see this this

47:13

And you know if this type of stuff had just exploded onto the scene say back in the 1980s there would have been a very strong reaction against it, but the the way the

47:24

The enemies of the faith do things The way the ungodly do things is they they expose you to a little bit

47:31

And then a little bit more a little bit more you might find it shocking at first But once you're exposed to it this much then they do a little bit more and to do a little bit more until most of us honestly these days are going along with our lives and We never think about the fact that as I drive up 7th

47:50

Street in here in Phoenix or over close to where I live I'm I'm driving past abortion mills where where little precious lives are being snuffed out daily and There are certain areas in the town you can drive through you know that that's the gay area

48:07

And that's the gay restaurant over there, and that's where the gays meet, and it's just like yeah.

48:13

Yeah, well, whatever you know I can't think about all this stuff. I can't keep it all my you know. I've got my life to live and It's hard not to be the frog

48:23

Yeah in the pan of cool water. Yep. I mean it affects it affects everybody yeah, also talking about those that You know want to like the previous color one.

48:34

There's so many people that want to be a name in the church There's some real dangers with that especially with pride and being attacked

48:44

I just want to let you know even after all these years. I pray for you quite often

48:52

Because you're out there in front Well one you can go ahead and you're kind of point man, but that makes you being shot at and Being being elevated with people below you going wow

49:07

James. You're great. I want to be like you You know you'd always

49:12

Pray and I've known you and if you're like you were back when I knew you before You're not big -headed at all, but you're rather humble man, so Well as Moses as Moses said he was you know the most humble man, right?

49:29

You know people people It is it is sad that so many of those who dislike me so intensely

49:38

Have only viewed debates. You know obviously in a debate. I'm very focused and can be

49:47

Rather intimidating in that context because I believe that I have a duty to the audience a duty to my

49:53

Lord To defend his truth and to speak the truth and so on so forth But you know there is opportunities if people wanted to they could they could watch the sermons they could listen to the

50:03

Bible studies and in those contexts discover that I often say you know what if If I get run over by a truck on my motorcycle on the way home the kingdom is going to continue on I Am never going to be one of those people who says look if it's not us

50:22

Then it's not going to get done blah blah blah blah I do view myself in the in the scope of church history and I'll be lucky to be a small footnote someplace, and that's not the point

50:37

It's it's not me and so many of my debate opponents One of the reasons that they are really hamstrung in a debate is that they don't realize that's how

50:46

I think that this isn't about Me and it's not about them It's about a major issues of truth

50:52

And if I insert myself into it Then I am lessening the value of this debate for the person in another land in another language in another time

51:02

I mean I have gotten to the point you know you haven't seen me for a while but you see me on YouTube, and you remember when

51:08

I had hair, and I was skinny, so Like you've not changed

51:15

Yeah, yeah But I realize but Don I realize

51:22

I'm more than halfway through my life, and I really honestly am looking toward The time when

51:30

I'm gone And what am I gonna leave? What am I gonna leave behind and and and I'm really honestly trying to make an effort to Maximize the impact

51:40

I can have not just now But 20 years after I'm gone and 50 years after I'm gone I want to leave behind a body of work

51:48

That's going to bless the people of God in those contexts as well if it's just a flash in the pan now

51:53

What what's it worth? I want to have eternal value so as a result of that you know

51:58

I can't think of myself overly highly There are lots of people much smarter than I am there's lots of people who preach better than I do

52:05

I don't consider myself a preacher, but I recognize that God has given me some incredible opportunities

52:10

And he has given me certain gifts. I can think fast and speak fast on specific issues.

52:17

That's Whoopie do you know there's so many more people that can't but they can be quiet with God on their knees in their prayer closet

52:31

Making a great deal of difference more than I think we really know oh, yeah And there's those that have also gifts for putting on a great

52:39

YouTube site like you and Lane as a Excellent one too. Yes.

52:44

He does you know there is Anyway, that's I didn't want to take all the time.

52:50

That's all right, but I really It was great to talk to you. Well. It's very great to hear from you again

52:57

I I wished when I was in Oklahoma there about two years ago. I'd had The opportunity to to get by but it was difficult to do because of my speaking commitments

53:08

But who knows maybe the folks there will have me back, and I'll have that opportunity to to see you again

53:13

So yeah, but I appreciate you praying for us All right, and they are going to be back there in October with another

53:20

Well here in a couple weeks with another guest so I'm sure we'll see you back through all righty all right

53:26

Thanks. All right. All right. God bless love you James. Love you, too. Bye -bye Good former member of the

53:32

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church was there the first number of years that I was there and is now in Oklahoma and Always had a big big heart so great to great to hear from him

53:44

Excellent questions today excellent phone calls. We can never predict What's going to be under those the blinking lights the phones?

53:53

We can never predict when we're going to get calls when we're not and When they do come in they certainly are very useful, but one of the things that I'll admit

54:04

I In in reading the testimonials that have been sent in once again was really taken aback by the

54:14

The audience that this little webcast reaches, and you know we started doing the dividing line in the 1980s

54:21

We were on a local radio station There was no internet at the time to to reach out to any broader audience

54:29

But we would put it on cassette tape or something like that And I grew up doing radio so sitting in front of a microphone to me is is second nature

54:38

I was 16. I was sitting behind a microphone doing radio programs Spinning records yes the records it could still skip yes the

54:45

LPs the vinyl the vinyl things shows how long ago that was anyway Then When with the advent of the internet when we went back on there?

54:57

we've been off for a while as I recall and went back on the air here locally and they were streaming they were streaming their signal and We started seeing the number of out -of -town calls that eventually

55:13

What's what caused us to stop paying the outrageous amount of money? To be on a local radio station was because all the calls we were getting weren't from the local area

55:22

They were listening via the internet, and that's when we began looking into hey is there a better way we can be stewards of the small amount of resources the

55:30

Lord has given to us and reach a larger audience and so that's what started the dividing line and To read people talking about listening to us

55:43

A term that's appeared more than once already in the emails have been sent in was lifeline Your program is a lifeline for me because of where I am

55:54

I You know I have a lot of opposition because of where I am. There's not a church here, and I can't move and and it can be extremely discouraging and Hence, I'm you know

56:07

Downloading the dividing line every single program you have it certainly has caused me to want to work harder in the future at Maintaining a regular appearance of the dividing line even when

56:20

I travel and I think especially With that wonderful silver blessing in my room in my office that we got a number of months ago called the

56:29

MacBook Pro I've been using Skype to make local calls on that and it's all built in and it works perfectly

56:35

I've never had anybody say could you repeat that or anything, so I don't have to carry separate stuff

56:41

I used to have to carry separate things, but I don't have to with this one and so We're gonna.

56:47

I'm certainly gonna make a little bit more of an effort personally Even while traveling sometimes it's not possible if I'm traveling during that time period or whatever you know and I thank people for being

56:57

Patient along those lines there have been people asked why don't you you know get on a network? Why don't you you know syndicate this you know there?

57:03

There are people who do nationwide talk programs that don't have near your experience in doing radio even

57:08

You you know how to take calls keep a program moving so and so worth why don't you do that well? I wouldn't be averse to it, but it would be a different program it really would be it would not have the same character of me just sitting here talking and and The freedom that we have to you know if someone had called and we were having good conversation we just keep going as it is we have 29 seconds before the music starts and You know

57:34

I know that but since we're not on a network who cares and If rich has a need or I have a need we can move it by an hour if we have to you know

57:44

We've got we've got the freedom right now, and it's a good thing to have I'm not saying I would be averse doing it, but man it really ties you down Once you start doing that that becomes your life

57:54

It really does it's difficult to do almost anything else because you have to be preparing every day and things like that so But again just very thankful the

58:03

Lord for the outreach that this program has had and if it has been an encouragement to you drop Us a line. I'd like to hear from more of you

58:10

But if you already have thank you very much, and I just pray it continues to be encouragement very

58:17

Happy to see people saying you know You've modeled for me how to consistently handle the

58:22

Word of God and if that's translating into you being a better Sunday school teacher a better teacher and your family whatever it might be

58:29

Wow what a privilege for us So thanks for listening to program today, Lord willing. We'll be back again on Tuesday.

58:35

See you then God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 nine seven three four six zero two or write us at PO box three seven one zero six,

59:43

Phoenix Arizona eight five zero six nine you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:48

That's a o -m -i -n dot o -r -g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks