WWUTT 2475 Q&A The Romans 7 Debate, Pastoring In This Economy, High Church vs Low Church

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In Romans chapter 7, was Paul talking about his struggles before or after he got saved?

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It's difficult to live on a pastor's salary in today's economy. How can you get by? And high church or low church, which one is the most biblical?

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The answers when we understand the text. This is when we understand the text, a daily

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Bible study in the word of God. We thank you for listening and for telling others about our program. Let them know about our website, www .tt

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.com. Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Psalm 133, behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity.

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It is like the precious oil on the head running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron, running, running down on the collar of his robes.

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It is like the dew of Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion. For there, the

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Lord has commanded the blessing life forevermore. Babe, I'm sorry that you will not get to know what it's like for oil to run down into your beard.

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Yeah, I'm hoping anyway. I'll let you know how it feels.

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Thanks. I remember when I started doing Bible reading, this was a number of years ago, but I was looking at Hermon, like Mount Hermon, the dew of Hermon.

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And I was like, I don't want to say Hermon. That sounds weird. Hermon, Mount Hermon. Okay.

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It's like, I knew a guy named Hermon. It was like, and I have to say Mount Hermon. And then

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I heard a preacher one time say Mount Hermon. And I was like, oh, that's it. Now. I can get behind that.

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Now I feel good about saying that word. That's funny. Hermon, that's the way to say it. Isn't that so strange that some words are like, no,

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I'm not saying that one. Well, there's. But others are like, okay, I can do that.

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Some of them kind of sound American, like Buzz. There's a guy named Buzz. Yes. What's the other one?

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Salmon, S -A -L -M -O -N. It's spelled like salmon, but I refuse to say salmon.

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So I'll say Salmon. It's in Jesus' genealogy.

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So just a slight hint of L in there, just a little bit. Salmon, not salmon.

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He's not a fish. Yeah. Adventures in enunciating words.

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Are you sure he wasn't a fisherman? Yeah, he could have been. Maybe that's where the fish is named after. This guy was a fisherman, and now we have salmon.

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Sure. Because of Salmon in the Bible. This is the

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Friday edition of the broadcast where we take questions from the listeners. And you can submit those questions, too, when we understand the text at gmail .com

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or send us a voicemail. Go to the website, www .tt .com. Click on the voicemail tab and record a voicemail either through your phone or through your computer.

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We would love to hear from you. I tend to give priority to the voicemails. I try to play as many of them as I get.

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Yeah. So yeah. As a matter of fact, because I only started doing this a couple of years ago.

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Yes. Not quite two years ago. Right. And we just hit our 100th voicemail message.

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What? That's awesome. So this is voicemail number 100, and it comes from James.

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Okay. So James, when we get to your voicemail, you are officially the 100th voicemail.

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That is so cool. That we've ever received when we understand the text. So don't forget to record a voicemail to us or send us an email, and we'll get to your questions as we are able.

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If I can't air a question, I try to respond to it. That's what I was going to say. Right. On the email. So here we go.

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This first one, this is a voicemail. This comes from Michael in England. Are you ready? Sure.

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Good afternoon, Pastor Gabe and Becky. My name is Michael.

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I'm from Birmingham in England. My question is about Romans 7, 14 through to 25, since I know that you are preaching on that now.

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There are views that say this is about Paul while he was a Christian.

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There are other views that say that it was before he was a Christian, and there are views that say it relates to Israel and the law.

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Whatever view you have, please enlighten me and all your audience.

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Thank you very much. God bless you. God bless you, Michael. Aw, thanks. Love that accent.

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Definitely. And I could tell by that. Yes, I could tell by that accent it wasn't Birmingham, Alabama. Yes, no joke.

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No, Birmingham, Birmingham, England. That's a different accent. So his question regarding Romans 7, 14 to 25.

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As Providence would have it, that's exactly the passage that I'm preaching on this coming

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Sunday. Now, if you're listening to the Sunday sermons as they pop up on the podcast, those are actually about a month back.

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So I'm still in chapter six on the podcast. Okay. But coming up this Sunday in church,

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I'm in chapter seven. You can hear the sermons like within minutes of me finishing them if you go to the church website.

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I think it's up by like noon or 1215 or something like that. They get them up there pretty fast. So if you go to ProvidenceCasagrande .com,

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there's the sermon tab on there. So you can click on that, find the sermons not just from me, but from the other teachers at the church as well.

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And I think it's through our sermon audio page. So if you have sermon audio and you look up Providence Church in Casa Grande, you can also get the sermons that way.

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And YouTube. YouTube as well. YouTube does it live. That's right. Yeah. Then you can listen to it even as I'm preaching it.

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Yeah. It's only like there's a little lag, but not much. It starts at least the preaching portion of it.

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I start about 11 o 'clock. Yeah. So 11 to 1105, somewhere right in there is usually where I begin.

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We're almost always kind of right on the money with that. But if you find our YouTube page for Providence Church, then yeah, the live streams always up there on Sunday morning.

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We got some folks that can't make it or because our seating is so packed. We're a bit snug.

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We are, since we've outgrown our space. So they might stay home and watch the sermon, but you can catch it online as well.

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Follow the live stream. Definitely. All right. So the question is about Romans 7. Let me go ahead and begin reading here in verse 13.

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We'll go to the end of the chapter, and then I'll respond to Michael's question. Okay. The apostle

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Paul says, did that which is good then bring death to me by no means.

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So he's talking about the law, the law being good, because that was what was just said in verse 12.

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The law is holy. The commandment is holy and righteous and good, even though it was through the law that sin came alive and I died.

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That was the argument that he was making before. So it was the law. Is the law a bad thing? No. Is the law sin?

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By no means. But if it had not been for the law, then I would not have known sin. So I probably should have given the kind of a little bit more the back passage before we get to the passage we're reading here.

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So did that which is good, then the law bring death to me by no means.

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It was sin producing death in me through what is good in order that sin might be shown to be sin and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

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Okay. Now here's verse 14. This is kind of beginning where Michael was asking his question for. We know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh sold under sin for.

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I do not understand my own actions for. I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing

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I hate. Now, if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law that it is good.

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So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me for.

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I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my own flesh for. I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out for.

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I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

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Now, if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

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So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

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For I delight in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

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Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our

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Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh

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I serve the law of sin. So, what is

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Paul talking about in this passage? Back in chapter six, Paul said that we're no longer under the law, but we are under grace.

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So we're not going to be judged by the law. We have the grace of God that covers us. We're not supposed to be enslaved to sin any longer, since in Christ Jesus we've been set free.

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So do not submit your members, the members of your body, as slaves to unrighteousness, but instead we are to be slaves of righteousness.

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So if we are slaves of righteousness, how could it be that Paul is struggling in this way between what he wants to do, which is the right thing, but he keeps going back to the thing he doesn't want to do, which is the wrong thing.

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Why this struggle in his body? Why does it seem that Paul is so unsanctified? So there are two main views regarding Romans 7.

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Okay. Now, Michael threw in a third one there, but I'm just going to stick with these two main views. Is Paul talking about the struggle that he had in himself before he was a

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Christian and as a Jew, having the law of God, being unable to keep the law and follow it?

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So is Paul referring to his pre -conversion self? Okay.

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Or is Paul talking about post -conversion? Like me as a

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Christian, this is what I struggle with every day. I want to do the right thing, but it seems like there's still something in my flesh that drags me back to the wrong thing.

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And if that's what Paul's talking about, we tend to find that passage very, very relatable because we're like, yes,

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I go through that every day. Right. I also want to do what is pleasing to God. So why is it that I still seem to be struggling with doing the sinful thing rather than the righteous thing?

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How many times have you gone through that? Why did I do that? Right. I knew that. A lot. I knew that was wrong, but I did it anyway.

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About all day long. Why did I raise my voice at my kids? Yeah. Why did

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I lose my temper over that? Right. When later it seems really silly, it's like, oh, that was dumb.

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Or even getting lazy and not doing what I know I'm supposed to be doing. Yes. And then a whole hour goes by and I'm like,

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I just lost that whole hour. Yes. Why did I do that? I knew not to do that, but I did it anyway.

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You know, even things like that. So there could be losing your temper. It could be giving into lust. It could be it could be just not doing anything at all and just kind of sitting there and wasting away the hours.

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So all day long, we have we have these problems that are controlling our tongues. That's it. That's a big one. Yeah, that's a big one.

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So what is Paul talking about here? And where's the debate? If you read Tom Schreiner's commentary on the book of Romans, he actually takes the view that Paul is talking about his pre -conversion self.

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Now, I've heard from somebody that Schreiner's actually since changed his view on this, but at least in his commentary on Romans, that's what you get.

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OK. That Paul is talking about his pre -conversion self and and the struggle that he had with the law before he had the spirit of God dwelling within him, because the argument he's going to make coming up in chapter eight is that if you do not have the spirit of Christ, then you're not even capable of keeping the law.

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Right. So so he used to have that view, at least when he wrote his commentary, he had the view that this was about Paul before he became a

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Christian. OK. I don't hold that perspective. I don't either. Honestly, my my thought was that because he wants to do good.

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Right. That comes from the Holy Spirit. Yes, right. Exactly. The desire to want to do good even comes from the spirit.

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Yes. And so because otherwise I'd just be lost in my own sin. Yeah. Forever.

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And yeah. So so for the fact that that he wants to do good and it's a battle.

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Yeah. Like I just feel like that would be after he's saved or even, you know, he's in the hands of God anyway.

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Yeah. But he's just not not reached that point where he's given the Holy Spirit. Yeah. You know what

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I mean? Well, why would if he's in the hands of God, why would he not have the Holy Spirit? No, no, no, no. Like like, you know how we say that before we're saved, but.

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God never let us get too far away from him or something like that. OK. Yeah, I get what you're saying. OK. So so like right around that point or or after.

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Yeah. Well, you're on to something, though, when you're talking about, you know, when you're saying he is saying this, he is saying that he struggles with this.

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Right. These are present tense verbs. Oh, yeah, that's true. Paul is not saying I was trying to do the right thing and I couldn't.

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They're all present tense. That is true. And so that's why I hold the view that Paul is talking about a present struggle, something that he presently is struggling with and and can't seem to do it.

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Now, Martin Lloyd Jones kind of added to that view a little bit. So so we're taking the view that this is a post conversion.

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Paul, he is a Christian. He desires to do what is right. But sometimes he gets weak in his flesh and he ends up doing what he knows is wrong.

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But he goes right back to the wrong thing. Right. Why do I have that tendency in myself? So Martin Lloyd Jones kind of added to the present tense view.

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This is a post conversion, Paul. And Jones said Lloyd Jones said that if you're really arguing about whether this is pre conversion or post conversion, you're kind of missing the point.

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Because the point is, really, you cannot sanctify yourself apart from the spirit no matter what.

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Amen. Doesn't matter if it's a pre conversion, Paul, or a post conversion. Paul, a person who tries to be sanctified through the law is not going to be sanctified by the law.

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Right. And so if you see chapters three through six, giving the argument of justification by faith alone, then here in chapter seven, we're reading about sanctification.

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And that sanctification is by the spirit. Your justification was by the grace of God.

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You did nothing to justify yourself. It was not by your works, but it was by God's grace. And then chapter seven is making the argument.

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You're not sanctified by your own efforts as well. That is also by the grace of God.

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Right. And it is by the spirit working within you. You try to sanctify yourself, whether you're a believer or an unbeliever.

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You try to sanctify yourself through the keeping of the law and you're going to fail at it. So Paul saying,

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I see in my members, another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

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So there's still a tendency to want to sin that's still in there. There is the state of mind that he wants to do what is right and go after.

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But if he's trying to do it by his own efforts, then he's never going to get there.

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He tries and he tries and he tries by himself to get there and can't even get the sanctification thing down.

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Right. And so that frustration leads him in 24 to say, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?

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The body of death that I'm in, the body that is still subject to corruption and is going to die and be buried in the ground.

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Yeah. This thing is still dragging me into stuff that I don't want to do. So who's going to deliver me from this body of death?

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And the answer is, thanks be to God. Amen. Through Jesus Christ, our

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Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh,

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I serve the law of sin. So we commit our minds to God and we commit ourselves fully to him so that our bodies, therefore, would be enslaved to the thing that controls our mind and our hearts.

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Right. Which should be the Holy Spirit of God. Amen. But yeah, chapter seven is totally a relatable chapter to all of us.

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Yes. That we can read this and see, yeah, right. The good I want is not what

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I do, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Yes. I once wrote a song about this.

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Yeah. You just played it for the church a couple of weeks ago. Yep. Unbeknownst to me. Week and a half ago or whatever this was.

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Yeah. I did a song years ago, 2007. 2007.

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2007 was when I recorded it. Yeah. And it was called Something Good. And the second verse is,

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I get myself into all kinds of trouble. I do the things that I don't want to do. But when it comes to clear out all the rubble, there might be something here worth holding to.

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That was the line. Yes. And it came directly from Roman seven. My own sort of struggles with Roman seven.

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And that was the inspiration behind that lyric. Michael, I appreciate your question.

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And you can call in with a question anytime with an accent like that. It's fun listening to.

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It is fun. As well as diving into God's word. But I wonder how odd that we sound like, because he's in the area where they all talk with the accent.

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So he doesn't think of having an accent. Yeah, right. So I wonder if he finds us interesting, like our dialect or.

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Yeah, our American accent. Yes. I have visited with an Englishman before who said,

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I don't have an accent. You have an accent. So yeah. I think that's so funny. Anyway.

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This next question is anonymous. I think you'll be able to have some good insight on this one too. Okay. This is from a pastor's wife.

19:04

Okay. Hi, Pastor Gabe. My husband is pursuing pastoral ministry. I guess you could say she's a hopeful pastor's wife.

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Okay. Sure. But in the sense that they're still looking for a pastor, not that she's looking for a pastor to marry.

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Okay, fair. Does that make sense? Okay. We are both concerned, she says, how to make it financially while staying away from child care and planning to homeschool to keep our kids out of public schools.

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Inflation has been insane and we are struggling as it is. Most pastor jobs seem to pay from around $35 ,000 to $55 ,000 a year.

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We aren't sure how a family can survive on those wages. While I don't mean to inquire about your personal finances,

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I'm hoping that you would give us some insight into this. How do pastor's families make it on such low income?

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And if you're comfortable with answering this, how do you guys make it? By the skin of our teeth.

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That's how we make it. Now we're doing well. Our church is generous to us.

20:07

The financial shortcomings that we were having last year is because we were paying rent on the house that we were in here and still having to pay our mortgage on the house that we had in Texas.

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Which to be fair, I think anybody would be tight at that point. Unless you're making a six -figure salary.

20:23

I don't know how you could have been comfortable with that sort of arrangement. It was pretty tough. We thought that the house was going to sell much quicker than it did because of the way the market was when we moved.

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Right. And then it just, yeah, did not turn out to be that way. But the Lord took care of us.

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The church was great. You guys were great. Amen. And we leaned on the

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Lord all the more. Oh, yeah. It really made us trust in God. Yes. And to see the way that he provided for us in the midst of that.

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Oh, that's amazing. It was very, very amazing. We're at a church called Providence.

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This is true. And we were seeing Providence. Yes. One thing after the other. Beautiful. Right. Things would happen and we're looking at, how would the stars align to make that happen, to get that to happen?

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There's no way. Yeah. There was no way. All by the hand of God. Yes. It was just amazing to see. It was beautifully orchestrated.

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Right. So in saying that, step out and do it.

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Don't just step out there, though, expecting, okay, I'm just going to step out in the midair and hope I can fly.

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Right. Let people know. Tell people what you're doing. Because if there are needs there that need to be met, you never know.

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You'll have somebody in your orbit somewhere. The Lord lays on their heart to help you financially with something.

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When Becky and I first got started, it was her idea that I was going to become a pastor. You're welcome.

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And when we took the job that was offered to me, I was an associate pastor.

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We took the job offered to me. I mean, you had veto power there. I did. I did. But it just sounds really weird.

22:02

We took the job offered to me. You weren't in that job, but we accepted it. Yes. If I would not take a job that you just felt like there's...

22:11

No. Yeah. If my wife was not going to be happy with it, because sometimes she just has a good intuition about things.

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She sees something that I don't see. And a lot of times you've been right. Yeah. The Lord has blessed me with that discernment.

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It doesn't have any rhyme or reason. And I can't put my finger on it half the time, or maybe even more than half the time.

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But I just know something's off. Yeah. Yeah. You don't rub it in. No. You're not cocky about it.

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It's just sometimes my wife will say, I don't have a good feeling about this. Or I think you should second guess that or something.

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And most of the time, I'm like, okay, that was good. Because I was ready to just go headstrong right into it.

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But then on my own judgment, on my own things, it's not so great. So, you know.

22:58

Whenever you're helping me make the decision, it's great. It's awesome. But it doesn't quite translate to yourself so much.

23:05

No, it doesn't. Yeah. I learned very early in our marriage that if I don't make the decision, no decision is going to be made.

23:12

Exactly. So, yeah. Yes, yes. I'm like, both would work. Yeah. And I can't decide which one would be better.

23:18

Right. So, just go with it. So, we were in a smallish church. It was over 200 people.

23:25

But I was one of three pastors on staff. Three full -time pastors. Right. And in the associate pastor position.

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So, I'm not making as much money as the guy who's handling all the preaching and everything. Right. I'm the worship pastor.

23:39

They still took care of us. We had health insurance. Our health care was covered. We had housing was covered and things like that.

23:47

But the income was still so low. It was very, very low. That we were not able to make ends meet from one month to the next.

23:55

We were always in the red every month. Yeah. And we were what? A family of three at that time? Yes. And then you got pregnant pretty much right away.

24:03

Yeah, yeah. So, then we quickly added a fourth. Yes. And then got pregnant with our third while we were still...

24:11

But that was... I was a senior pastor by then. That was later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was later. I had moved up in salary by that point.

24:17

Right. But in the beginning, it was tough. It was really hard.

24:23

We were still borrowing money from my parents. We managed to knock out all debt.

24:30

So, I took care of all my debt before we got married. And then we had to take care of your debt.

24:36

Do you remember that? No. Yeah, we still had your student loans and stuff like that. Student loans, but I think that was it.

24:42

I think so. Yeah, there wasn't like credit card debt or anything like that. Maybe a car. Yeah, that's right. There was a car payment.

24:48

Car payment, yeah. And then when we got rid of that, I think when we finally settled that debt, it took about two or three years.

24:55

Yep. And then we got the van, took a car payment again, but we're only paying on the van for about two years.

25:00

Yeah. And then paid that entirely off. That's the only car payment we've ever had,

25:06

I think. Yeah, pretty much. So, every time we've bought a vehicle, we've managed to just buy it straight out, which is great.

25:12

That's also a blessing. That was the Lord's blessing. Yeah, money comes and money goes just as quickly.

25:21

So, I'm sure you all can relate to that. Yeah. But it's about being wise with your choices.

25:28

Where is it that you want to spend the money to... Sometimes you can spend money on things that it's basically waste.

25:37

You might as well just take it and throw it in the trash because there's nothing to it. You don't get any return for nothing like that.

25:45

And then for our family, because we're so large, that if we go to visit a place...

25:50

Large. It is. We're larger than average. We have five kids. I know, five kids, but I think...

25:56

That's seven people. I'm thinking large as being like eight, nine, ten kids. That is larger.

26:04

We have a pretty significant family. Okay. Anyway, we all still fit in one vehicle.

26:11

So, I mean, there is that. But whenever we go places, we usually get the year, the family...

26:18

What do you call that? Family deal or family plan or something like that. Yeah, because by the time you visit there twice, it's already paid for itself.

26:25

So, we do things like that where it's a little bit money up front, but in the long run, it saves.

26:32

We usually try to do free things a lot and the kids love it. They absolutely love it.

26:39

You know, we've never taken a trip to Disney World or like a big theme park. We've never done that, but the little...

26:46

Just because it's not something that was like meaningful to us, you know? Right. Well, the kids really, really want to go to Disney World.

26:53

They want to go, but they don't know any better. I know, they don't, right. They don't know what they're missing.

26:58

It's not a meaningful thing to them. It's not like it's a tradition. So, for us as a family, being able to do things together has been the thing that's been special to the kids.

27:06

Yes. That we do it all together. Yes. Now, we're just talking about just kind of like average everyday spending things.

27:12

What about getting by? I mean, just with the bills. And when we got started 15 years ago, inflation was not what it was now.

27:20

Oh, no. No, no, no, no. So, we also were... We picked very reasonable priced state insurance.

27:30

Oh, yeah. Like with the health insurance? Yeah, health insurance was from through the state because it covered the kids completely.

27:36

The kids had better coverage. We had health insurance through the church. Right. You and I did. Right. But the kids actually got better coverage through the state.

27:43

They did. So, we did that. Yeah. And they got eye care in their... Dental and everything.

27:48

Dental too. Yeah. That was all covered. So... WIC coupons and food stamps.

27:54

Yeah, we did that. What else do we do? There's sometimes that you can call your electric company or gas company and ask them if they can do the one price all year round.

28:08

And they do like an average. Oh, yeah. So, it's a little bit more in the summer. Right. And then it's a little bit less in the winter.

28:14

So, it's all the same year round. So, it kind of evens out, but it's easier to manage your money that way. Yeah. So, you don't have like a $500 gas.

28:23

Do you remember that when we had like $350 for like our small house? So, all the utilities we paid in Kansas, we've since lived in Texas and now here in Arizona.

28:32

And in both states, Texas and Arizona, our utilities have been cheaper than what they were in Kansas. So much cheaper. So much cheaper.

28:38

Kansas was just very expensive. It was weird. Yeah. So weird. But it was normal there.

28:44

It was so normal. So, anyway, we would spend so much money on just gas and electric.

28:50

And what else was there? Water and trash. Yeah. And then phones. We tried to go with the dumb phones for a while, but then it wasn't worth it.

28:59

So, we went with the cheaper version. But they have all sorts of options for cheap phones now. We were on dumb phones until like 2015 or 16.

29:07

We call them dumb phones. Yeah, dumb phones. They're not connected to the internet. They were just, what, calling and texting.

29:14

Yeah, that was pretty much it. And that was it. But I think it was like the smartphone is so widespread.

29:19

I mean, it's almost like you got to pay more for the dumb phone now. You do. And you almost did whenever we were on, like we made the switch.

29:27

And we also got very selective on our entertainment as far as like TV goes.

29:33

We never had cable. Nope, never. Never. So, it's always been, you know, even before there were a whole lot of streaming services, we would just watch

29:41

DVDs. We would rent movies, you know, through some sort of a service where you just had to pay eight bucks a month or something like that.

29:49

So, anyway, there were all different kinds of ways that we could cut and stuff like that.

29:55

And we were able to buy our own home, which we did in 2014. We sold it in 2020 when we moved to Texas and then bought a house when we were in Texas.

30:05

But that was such a bust that we lost all of our equity. So, we're here in Arizona now renting.

30:12

Starting over. And starting over when the housing prices are like 40, 50, 60 % more than they were.

30:20

Yes. When even when we bought the house in 2020. Yeah. So, this is, it's a tough market.

30:26

And so, I understand exactly what you're saying about how do we get by. Yes. On $35 ,000 to $55 ,000 a year.

30:32

But that allows your congregation to help bless you.

30:37

Yeah. And so, you do have to let them know. What your needs are. Yes. What your needs are, especially when you're struggling.

30:46

Don't let that go by too fast or too long, I guess is the right word.

30:52

Yeah. Don't get into this attitude of like, we're just going to do it all ourselves. Right. I don't want to let anybody know that we're struggling.

30:59

It may be the thing that God is going to use to cause you to have to depend on those people that your husband is shepherding.

31:08

And then also those people realizing like, this pastor, this is our pastor. Yeah. And they will see the responsibility of being able to care for you and your family.

31:18

Yes. And that was always a big deal to me, no matter where I went and pastored was, will this church take care of my family?

31:25

I considered that almost more than like, I don't care. I don't even need new stuff.

31:30

I'm fine with what I have. Yes. Will my family be taken care of? And that's how

31:36

I knew where I was going was a good place because I could see how much they loved my wife and kids and my family would be provided for.

31:43

So that way I could just focus on ministry and I would not be sidetracked by, you know, all the other stresses of everything else of trying to make it work.

31:52

Now, you might have to end up in a situation where you're bivocational. Yeah. Your husband will have two jobs.

31:59

He'll be working for the church. The church has to be understanding that with the amount of money we're paying him, he has to get another job.

32:05

When Becky and I knew we were leaving Texas, we didn't even know where we were going yet, but we were entertaining the possibility that I might end up being bivocational.

32:14

Right. Like I wanted to pastor that bad. I don't make as much money here as I was making in Texas, but I wanted to go back to preaching so bad

32:23

I was willing to take the pay cut, even if it meant that I was going to be bivocational. And so there was a church that we visited in Kansas where the salary that they were offering me meant that I was going to have to take on another job.

32:35

Right. So we were entertaining, like, if I do this, if I take this job, can

32:41

I use the podcast? Is there a way that we can use the what videos and the podcast, which

32:47

I've never charged for before, but can we use that somehow and that be able to make up the income that we won't be getting through the church or through because it won't be a full time job?

33:00

Right. Now, eventually it kind of came about that the church wasn't interested and we weren't going either.

33:06

It was kind of a funny story on why that didn't work out. That's fine. They didn't like that.

33:11

I was calling out false teachers. That's really what it came down to. So it's good to know that, though, before going in, like, what's the buttons?

33:22

What are the buttons that I could push that would make this really bad? Oh, yeah. So I preached a sermon while I was there.

33:29

The only two false teachers I mentioned were Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland. I felt like I was pretty safe with that.

33:35

Who's going to have a problem with me saying these guys are heretics? It makes people uncomfortable. It really does.

33:42

It did. And it made them uncomfortable. They're like, I don't know how we feel about this thing of like, we're going to be calling out false teachers by name and sermons and stuff.

33:50

So when I found that out, I was like, OK, it's good. I did not take that job. But those were the options that we were entertaining.

33:56

Right. If I took a bivocational job, what could I do to supply the remaining income?

34:03

And those are things that, you know, the two of you are just going to have to talk through. Yeah. And you as a wife, the best thing you can do for your husband is love him and support him.

34:12

Yes. No matter where you end up taking a step. Right. Because if he's... And it's just a season. Right.

34:18

It's just a season. It's just a season. It could be something the Lord brings you through, and you end up in a better place than when you started, you know, financially or anything else.

34:28

Right. I mean, there's a thousand different ways that this could go. Oh, yeah. But we're sharing our personal experiences.

34:36

No matter where you end up, God is going to show himself faithful. And as a wife,

34:42

I just want to point out that I have worked multiple jobs. And although they were all part time and they didn't even add up to being 40 hour work week altogether, if you added them all together, it was still more exhausting than when

34:59

I had one full time job where I actually worked the 40 full week.

35:06

It was. It was so exhausting. And I can't tell you why, but I was just so physically exhausted, mentally exhausted.

35:16

It was just... Your mind's divided. Yeah. Your mind's divided in all these different places. This job and that job and the kids.

35:22

Okay. Maybe that was it. Yeah. That's probably what it was. It was just insane. Yeah. So anyway, if any of you guys out there have a spouse that has multiple jobs, please be extra merciful to them.

35:34

Yes. Give them extra grace in everything, because it is just so stressful.

35:40

Yeah. And although it's doable, it's totally doable, but it does add an extra stressor.

35:47

Yeah. Anyway, that's my two cents. If you take a job, let me just throw out a job idea for you.

35:53

Okay. Sure. I don't know what your skills are, anonymous or anything like that. But if your husband's working at the church, what's a job that you could do so that you don't have to put the kids in school or you don't have to pay for child care?

36:06

Because that's just absurd. I mean, there's no point in taking a job if that job is just going to be paying for child care.

36:12

Right. There's no point. Just stay home with the kids. Right. So what's a job that you might be able to do?

36:17

Make a little bit of extra cash on the side. That would even help out with bills and things like that. Well, she was talking about homeschooling.

36:23

There's a lot of co -ops out there that get the person in charge gets paid or a person who teaches gets paid.

36:30

Oh, yeah. There's tutoring. Yes. If you know a musical instrument, doing piano lessons or violin lessons or something like that, like you're teaching and you're able to make money from that.

36:43

Yeah. And you can still do that from home. And my mom sews. Yeah. Totally take up some sewing. You could even do crafts with the kids and then go to markets that have kids that sell things and then do it there.

36:57

This is something we talked about doing, but we never did end up doing it. But when we were in Junction City, which is a very military town, families were moving all the time and they would just set their stuff out by the road.

37:09

Yes. So we drive around with the pickup and grab stuff and put it in the pickup, take it home and what would you say?

37:16

Revive it. What would you call that? There's a name. Rejuvenate it.

37:24

Sure. Turn over a new table leaf or I don't know, whatever it is.

37:31

The word is right on the tip of my tongue. I don't know why I can't find it. Refurbish. Refurbish. There you go. When you refurbish this furniture and then sell it and now you're making money off of it.

37:40

And what did you put in? 50 bucks into refurbishing it or something like that. It depends on the project.

37:46

Yeah. Depending on what it is. It could be that cheap. Sell it for three to 500 or whatever and now you've made that money.

37:52

And that's a project that you and the kids can do together. Yes. All of that can be at home. It can be part of home learning.

37:58

And that's just to throw that out there. Yeah, totally. There were different things that we would try to do to make the extra money.

38:06

Garage sales. You did garage sales. We had those sometimes. So much work. They were.

38:12

They were. Talk about added stressors. Yeah, right. And now you're older and all that energy that you had to do garage sales.

38:19

But now they do like Facebook market. And that's a lot easier, more simple, in my opinion.

38:25

I mean, I could be wrong. There could be more drama attached to that. And then the eBay is still a thing still around.

38:33

And what else is there? I don't know. Craigslist. Yeah, sure. I mean, it's like all the thing that made me so nervous about that.

38:41

It's like people are showing up to my door to buy like a baby walker for five bucks.

38:47

Yeah. And I'm like, who are you? I'm here for the baby walker. Like, okay. And you didn't tell me.

38:53

So I don't know where. Yeah. So we got five dollars for this baby walker. Thankfully, this person wasn't an axe murderer coming to our house or something.

39:01

Yeah, it's good. It's good. The Lord is good. He'll take care of you even from axe murderers.

39:08

So I hope just kind of chatting and sharing our experience that we've given you some things to think about.

39:15

Of course, you and your husband pray, pray, pray. Always. And have people praying for you as well.

39:21

And listen to other counselors. Find somebody who is much older, who has been a pastor and been a pastor for a long time.

39:29

I mean, years and years. Like you find a pastor who's been doing that job for 40 plus years or something like that.

39:36

They'll certainly have a story of when we got started. Yeah. Like the car wouldn't even start some mornings, you know, stuff like that.

39:43

Yeah. So there's plenty of stories out there. People able to give you some good advice. And the homeschooling that can be as expensive as you want it to be.

39:53

It could be. Or as free as you want it to be. There's that too. You just got to find the right avenue.

39:58

So talk with people you know and what they do that you like the content and go from there.

40:05

Let's get to this question here from James. Who is officially our 100th voicemail?

40:12

James, here we go. We need the button. Oh yeah. Hang on. Where's my button? There's the applause.

40:19

Applause, applause, applause. That's not what I wanted though.

40:24

Hang on. No, it wasn't. It definitely wasn't that one. Not that one. All right. There it is.

40:29

There it is. Okay. The 100th voicemail. Hey, Pastor Dave.

40:35

This is James. And I have a quick question. When it comes to the structure of the worship service or your liturgy, in the

40:43

Baptist tradition, do you see any place for high church or instituting the regulative principle?

40:52

I would probably hold to a blend of regulative and normative. But I really do appreciate high church.

41:00

I do see hesitations that most people would probably have as compared to the

41:06

Presbyterian church. I really do see the benefits and appreciate having a congregational structure than the

41:18

Presbytery. But I'm just wondering where you would land on that. Because I'm just used to American Baptist.

41:26

That's what I grew up in. Doesn't seem to be as much reverence for the service that we enter into every

41:34

Sunday. I'm just seeing something that's added onto the day. Yeah.

41:40

Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Thank you. Well, I appreciate your question there,

41:46

James. Yeah. Babe, this is probably a discussion you and I have not had. Nope. Do you know the difference between high church and low church?

41:54

Nope. We've always been kind of in the middle. I know the difference between high

41:59

German and low German, but I don't think that applies here. Because of your

42:05

German heritage. Uh -huh. Yeah. High society, you know. Yeah. So if you walk into a church where the pastor is wearing vestments or very ornamented robes.

42:18

Oh, okay. Or even if you go into a Presbyterian church and he's got his black robe on. Okay. A Lutheran church where the guy's probably wearing a white robe of some kind.

42:26

Sometimes it's just white. Other times it might even have decor on it or something like that.

42:31

Or he may have another, what would you call that? Almost like a banner. Okay, yeah. A white robe and then something else over it.

42:39

A tunic of some kind. You're probably in a high church environment.

42:44

Oh, okay. So they're gonna put more emphasis on the sacraments and rituals and vestments and things like that.

42:53

Like the ceremonial kind of thing? Yeah, more of the ceremonial aspect of it. Whereas low church, there's gonna be more of an emphasis on the preaching.

43:02

Okay. And the preaching is going to be a little bit more loose. It's not necessarily guided by the liturgy of the worship service.

43:11

Okay. And there's also an emphasis on personal piety. The songs are going to be a little more free.

43:19

Okay. Maybe if we sing one song and we just feel like we gotta keep going here, we add another song into that.

43:26

We sing together and people are praising God. Why are you looking at me like that? That would drive me crazy.

43:33

I'm just saying. I come from a Catholic background. So it's very much like to the

43:38

T, this is what to expect. That's high church. Yes. That's exactly high church. Yes. So there's a lot of order to it.

43:46

You grew up in high church. You could even go to a language you don't understand. And it's still the same thing.

43:53

Right. You'll still understand it because you know the order. Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic pride themselves.

44:01

And I definitely mean pride. Pride themselves on being high church. Yes. But even among Protestants, you can encounter high church.

44:10

Okay. When you're seeing vestments and an emphasis on the sacraments and ritual and there's liturgy that we're all saying the same thing or every church in our denomination is preaching the same thing today.

44:23

Interesting. Or something like that. Okay. So that's more of a high church commitment. Low church is most

44:31

Protestant churches are low church. Okay. Non -denominational churches are definitely low church.

44:36

Okay. There's not even a denominational commitment there. Oh, okay. Sure. So where you're having a lot more freedom in worship, the pastor may not even be following a manuscript.

44:48

He's just kind of preaching as it goes. Okay. You know, that sort of thing. So this is all kind of low church.

44:54

Okay. Most of the time that I've been a pastor has been low church.

45:00

Okay. But you'll notice that as 15 years have gone by, it's gotten a lot more structured.

45:06

Yes. A lot more. I don't know if that has anything to do with me, but I do appreciate it.

45:14

Because you want more structure. I do. Yeah. I mean, it's strange because I am not a very strict person on schedule.

45:23

I lose track of time. Oh, yeah. All the time. You're as late as your parents most of the time. Most of the time.

45:29

If I have children in tow, yes. Yeah. I do appreciate being able to be a little bit more, have a little bit more wiggle room to,

45:39

I don't know. Not being rigid. Yes. Not being too rigid. Yes, thank you. So kind of like what

45:44

James is saying here with regards to a blend of the regulative principle of worship and the normative principle.

45:49

Yes. So a refresher on that one, in case you're not familiar with that either. The regulative principle of worship is, it's a

45:55

Protestant doctrine, but it's understanding that God's word alone is the authority for how

46:01

God is to be worshiped. And so our worship service needs to look like what the Bible says that it needs to look like.

46:08

Right. The normative principle of worship is the idea that any practice is okay, as long as the

46:14

Bible doesn't forbid it. So it has more of a negative approach to worship. Anything's permissible, as long as the

46:21

Bible doesn't say, no, you can't do that. Okay. So that's more of a liberty of conscience sort of a thing.

46:28

Okay. So with some things, the Bible may not explicitly say yes or no, but as long as it doesn't say no, then it's okay.

46:36

Wow. That would be the normative principle. That's a lot of liberty. Charismatic services, very much on the normative side of things.

46:44

Okay. A lot of charismatic services aren't even normative. They'll even do things that the Bible does forbid.

46:50

Yeah, that's true. But discussion for another time. So this gives you an idea of the difference between high church and low church.

46:57

Now, James's question is more geared toward, can we as Baptists have more of a high church mentality?

47:04

Now, I'm not ever going to wear a robe. That's just not something I'm going to do. I definitely move toward putting a suit on.

47:13

Whereas in the beginning for the first few years, up until 2015. So you're talking the first five years that I was a pastor, four years, four and a half, that I was just wearing, it was more than street clothes.

47:25

Right. It was nice. Yes. But it wasn't dressy. Right. It was like, what would you call that?

47:32

Something casual. Business casual. Business casual. Yeah. Probably the way that I would be falling under.

47:39

I might wear a t -shirt, but I had a sport jacket over it. Right. And I could preach in blue jeans.

47:45

Sometimes I did that too. But then I still had a suit, which I wasn't wearing. And at the start of 2015,

47:51

I felt convicted that I needed to be preaching in a suit. So I started doing that. Messing people up when they saw me up there behind a pulpit in a suit.

48:00

It made a difference. Yeah. I had more of a motivational speaker sort of approach to it before that.

48:06

I was still preaching the word and I had the Bible in my hand the entire time, but I would move around on the stage.

48:12

So I wasn't standing behind a pulpit and I might either have an ear mic on or I would be holding the microphone or something like that.

48:19

Since 2015, almost all of my sermons, almost all of them have been behind a pulpit.

48:25

So for 10 years now, I've been in a suit behind the pulpit. Yeah. But that became more of a recognizing that there's a tradition that is good for our worship service to affix itself to.

48:40

And as we have gone, as I've become more reformed in my understanding of doctrine.

48:47

So even as I'm committing myself to a reformed statement of faith, that's structuring what it is that I believe into the categories that I believe on certain aspects of theology.

48:57

And so with that structure came even in the worship service, this needs to be more structured.

49:02

Now, when I came here to Arizona, the worship service, everything was kind of clumped together at the very beginning.

49:09

Like all the singing was done all at once. And then there would be a catechism question that everybody would recite together.

49:15

There would be a scripture reading and then the sermon. And then there would be a song at the end or after the sermon, it would be a

49:24

Lord's table every Sunday, song at the end, and then benediction and we're out.

49:30

When I came in, I said, let's break this up a little bit so that it's not all kind of clumped right there at the very beginning.

49:39

So the way that we do service, and this just kind of to give you an outline of the structure of our worship service.

49:47

But in the beginning, we do all the announcements at the beginning. So that way, the flow of worship is not disrupted.

49:55

Like I've been in services where they do all the announcements at the very end. And that just, it kind of like you lose almost what the emphasis of the sermon was.

50:06

When you're doing all the, and now our minds are off of this worship we just had. And now it's all focused on the announcements.

50:14

Now here's what's going on during the week. So I think it's better to start with that. And then at the end of the announcements, then you're inviting everybody to prepare your hearts and minds for worship.

50:24

And there'll be a moment of quiet. And then we have the call to worship, which is usually reciting from a

50:32

Psalm, or it might be from one of the major prophets, but it's something like that. Calling people into worship. Then there are two songs, then a congregational confession.

50:42

And the congregational confession is from the scripture. So it will be that the leader of the congregation will read a portion of scripture.

50:49

The congregation will respond with the next section. It will go back and forth. The typical call and response type of thing you've probably seen in most

50:55

Baptist churches. And then we sing our Psalm. So there is a Psalm of the month that we sing every

51:02

Sunday for that month. And when we start the month, people have a real tough time finding the tune of that Psalm.

51:10

But by the end of the month, we're all belting it out. It's kind of neat to see how that progresses for us when we sing the

51:20

Psalm. It's really cool. After that, there is a scripture reading, which will usually be from the

51:25

Old Testament and will tie into the passage that's going to be preached on. And then the pastor or the elder that reads that will then lead the congregation in the pastoral prayer, bringing up needs within the congregation, mentioning current events and things like that, that may be going on state or nationwide or worldwide.

51:45

Praying for missionaries, one of our sister churches, something like that. And then there will be another song.

51:51

After that is the offering, an offertory prayer, maybe a song, but not usually.

51:58

We don't typically do anything there, but music, I think. And then I come up, read the scripture that I'm preaching on and then the sermon.

52:04

And then after that, Lord's Table. And then after the Lord's Table, there is a hymn.

52:13

And the hymn, by the way, the reason why we do that, even that has a biblical basis to it.

52:19

Because in Matthew 26, when Jesus has the

52:25

Last Supper with his disciples and he gives them the ordinance of the

52:30

Lord's Table, after they eat, this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.

52:37

And then the cup, drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

52:44

I tell you, I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's kingdom.

52:50

And then we drink of the cup. And then the verse that's right after that, verse 30. So this is

52:56

Matthew 26, 30. When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

53:01

So it is tradition for us that after the Lord's Table, we sing a hymn. Because that's what the

53:07

Bible says. So that's kind of an example of how scripture guides even the way that we do this in our service.

53:14

And then once the song has been sung, then whatever elder is appointed that week to do the benediction comes up and dismisses us, sends us off.

53:25

We're shaking hands in the back or going off to potluck, whichever Sunday that might happen to be.

53:31

So that gives you the idea of the structure of our worship service. And we structure it that way to be very meditative, to draw a person into the presence of Christ, be thinking about Christ and not the other things that are going on.

53:46

And it becomes involving even for the congregation. They're not there just as spectators. We're participants.

53:52

This is a worship service. So even when it comes to the recitation of scripture, yes, there's an elder that will be up there that will read scripture, but then there's also a point where the congregation will recite scripture also.

54:07

So the elder citing a portion and then the congregation responding, and that becomes even a confession to lay ourselves, lay our sins down before the

54:17

Lord and seek his mercy and grace. So James, I hope that kind of helps. I don't know how much that would be high church.

54:26

That is definitely more traditional and more structured than most Baptist services. Yeah. So I think even as a

54:33

Baptist, though the reputation among Baptists is a lot more low church, I think you can have something that is more governed by the regulative principle and something that would appear to be more high church structured.

54:46

Yeah. Again, I'm not going to wear vestments. Wearing a suit is enough. Especially in this heat.

54:51

Right. That's a good point too. You would probably die. That's right. A suit is already hot enough here in Arizona.

54:59

It is very hot. I've kind of been trying to move toward vests. I don't blame you.

55:06

But with the vest that I already own, I need to lose a few pounds in order to fit back into those vests again, without having to buy more vests.

55:15

I don't even want to buy a vest and then lose 20 pounds and they're baggy on me. It's like I'm wearing a trash bag.

55:22

It's just, it's too hot to add more layers. I mean, they keep the church pretty cool, but it's still.

55:29

Oh, yeah. Some of the ladies complain about how cool it gets in there. Yes. And that's one of the benefits.

55:34

I may or may not be one of them. That's one of the benefits of having a small building.

55:39

That's true. Is that it's easier to cool. Yes. Easier to keep cool. Well, folks, we appreciate you very much for listening and for asking your questions.

55:48

Again, if you have a question for the broadcast, the email address is when we understand the text at gmail .com.

55:54

Or you can send us a voicemail. Go to www .utt .com. Click on the voicemail tab and record it from your computer or your phone.

56:03

I want to start doing what videos responding to voicemail messages. I might end up cropping the voicemail message.

56:11

So it won't be, you know, if you record a minute and a half message, I'm probably not going to have the full minute and a half in the video.

56:17

Sure. But some of these questions you guys ask are really good. And I think, you know, a video could be made out of that.

56:23

Yeah. So I might start putting some of those voicemails in the videos. Interesting. If y 'all are okay with that.

56:29

Right. Kind of feel like you're surrendering your voice to us anyway. Give the extra permission. That's right. If you're recording a voicemail, you're kind of expecting this is probably going to end up on the air.

56:40

True. But y 'all sound great. It's amazing. I love it.

56:45

We love hearing from you every time. All right, let's pray and we'll be done. Yes, let's.

56:51

Heavenly father, we thank you so much for our time together that we have to open up your word and consider these things and ponder your goodness to us through Jesus Christ, our savior, who died on the cross, who rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.

57:07

Whoever believes in him will not perish under the judgment of God, but our sins are forgiven. And we have the promise of everlasting life with you.

57:16

May that message of the gospel govern our lives. May it be the thing that that we hold to those promises that we hold to every single day, that we would be sanctified in these things.

57:28

We would encourage one another in these things. We would continue to have minds that are focused on Christ seated above in the heavenly places, not clinging too tightly to this stuff that is here on earth, which is wasting away and coming to destruction.

57:41

But our hearts and our minds are focused heavenward on the eternal things that we are promised in Christ Jesus.

57:48

This weekend is the memorial service for Charlie Kirk, which is just up the road from us here in the

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Phoenix area. And so, Lord, we pray for that service and that the message of the gospel would go forth even there.

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People are asking questions in light of this tragedy that has taken place. And may they find those answers in Christ alone.

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There are people who will come to faith, saving faith in Jesus Christ because of the witness of this man, whom you used in the short time that he had here on this earth.

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I pray for his wife and his children, that they would be comforted by you and by your promises as well.

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And Lord, may we understand the call that is upon us to share the gospel with others. Doesn't mean that we have to be a great evangelist or be out there on the street, but there are people that we know personally who need to hear the gospel and they may hear it from no one else but us.

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So give us the courage and the boldness and the right words to say that we may lead others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, in whom we have put our faith and trust.

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It's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. I know you are.

59:09

I appreciate you being here though. It's been a long day. Okay, I don't even have a script for you.

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No, you don't. Hang on. That light is gonna do that.

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I'm gonna need something different. Probably the bulbs. Because they were fixtures that were not made for the bulbs that are in there.

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There you go. It's in your DMs. What did I just do? Not a clue.

59:51

Who did I just send that to? I think I just posted it. Hang on. Yep, I just publicly posted it.

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Well, there you go. Everybody gets that in their inbox.

01:00:07

It already had two likes. I think it was up for like...

01:00:16

Two seconds. About 20 seconds maybe. All right. Well, we're both tired apparently.