March 23, 2017 Show with Jason Helopoulos on “Let the Children Worship” PLUS Jonathan Master on “The Sufficiency of Scripture”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live -streaming.

This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

23rd day of March 2017.

Well We're supposed to be having two guests on today and one of them the first one has not yet called into the

studio.

So we're awaiting Anxiously for him to contact us, but his name is Jason

helipolis, and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

It's a Greek name.

I'm assuming he is assistant pastor at University Reformed Church in East, Lansing, Michigan

and a Guest blogger at the gospel coalition.

We are discussing his book Let the children worship the second hour of the program.

We're going to have Jonathan master on the program.

He is professor of theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Calm

University or Karn University.

I thought that was an odd name.

I thought it was C a L M and it's C a I R N.

Just another evidence that I'm going blind.

Karn University or Cairn University.

He'll correct me on the pronunciation.

I'm sure in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

He's the editorial director for the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and host of the Alliance podcast

theology on the go.

He's the author of a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance

after the Westminster Confession and Editor of the God we worship.

We're discussing the second hour with Jonathan master the sufficiency of Scripture.

If you'd like to join us on the air.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

And what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to an early break because I have to make sure that our first guest

Jason Helipollos is going to be joining us.

So I have to make a couple of phone calls.

Unfortunately, that's the way live radio goes sometimes.

So we're going to an early break right now and don't go away.

God -willing we will be right back after these messages with our guest.

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Welcome back.

And yes, we do.

Thank God have our first guest on today Jason hello Polos and he will correct me if I

mispronounce that any moment assistant pastor at University Reform Church in East

Lansing, Michigan and a guest blogger at the Gospel Coalition.

And we are discussing his book today for the first hour Let the children worship.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron Jason.

Hello Polos and Jason am I

mispronouncing your name?

Helopolis, okay.

I will try to remember that I'll think of metropolis and helopolis.

And in the studio with me is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

And.

We are discussing this book.

Let the children worship, but before we get to that I want to know something about University Reform Church in East Lansing,

Michigan.

Yeah.

And is it an independent church or is it a part of a denomination.

Yes, and for some reason the Reverend buzz Taylor's microphone is not working.

Maybe you get a switch headphones.

Reverend buzz.

Yeah, well, yeah.

Reverend buzz Taylor my co -host is a member of a local PCH PCH Church

Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a PCA Church.

Yeah, and Are you with us buzz?

Is this better?

Yeah, it sounds better.

And let me Announce once again our email address for our listeners to join us with a

question of their own on let the children worship.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

CH r is a RN Z and at gmail .com and Let me read

a description of this book.

Jason helopolis encourages the church to embrace the important part children play in the

life of the church and Enfolds the enormous blessing to be found in having them present in the worship

service of the congregation.

He points out how the struggles are temporary Whereas the blessings can be eternal and

let me read a couple of reviews for this book.

Both of these men have been on my program.

In fact one was just on day before yesterday, dr. Carl Truman of

Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

He says in a series of short chapters Jason helopolis explains the nature and importance of

worship and then offers Practical guidance on how to communicate this to our young people.

This is very useful and this is a very useful and practical book which deserves to be

widely read in our churches and then Derek Thomas Senior minister of

preaching and teaching at the First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina.

Who I have had on the program a number of years ago and look forward to having him back.

Derek Thomas says in Jesus's ministry the disciples were at one point Indignant at the

presence of children and this fine book Jason helopolis makes a compelling scriptural case For the

inclusion of children in worship.

It deserves serious and a sustained consideration.

Now Jason today you have interviewing you.

Me who would be a reformed Baptist my co -host who's a Presbyterian?

Is this the type of book that both reformed Baptists and Presbyterians or perhaps even?

Christians across the theological spectrum would be able to appreciate and make use of.

Well, I

writing it

from over

to

reach

quite a

now.

There is a movement that I'm sure you're familiar with called the family integrated community

of churches.

Where they some of them don't even believe in having nurseries or anything like that.

They don't believe in the segregation of little children or infants

from the Assembly at all.

Is yours

identical

or

similar

to that approach

or is

it somewhat

different

before

its

creator God?

It's redeeming God in worship, and

I think there's a

now.

What do you

think the.

Typical evangelical congregation perhaps even typical reformed

congregation is doing that would Be somewhat different

than your vision from involving children in the worship services like for instance, especially

you have Presbyterian churches that you are a part of that believe that children are By virtue of

their baptism are genuine members of the Covenant.

What is it that especially they are doing or not doing in the ordinary?

Gathering of the Saints that you think is lacking in regard to this concept of involving children.

Yeah,

you know, I I think

as I've chosen.

But

I

think

a lot

of

churches

today

written

by his spirit

and we

do

have.

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who says one of the things that I

must confess troubles me frequently is when I am trying to pay attention to

a sermon being preached and a child somewhere in the assembly or perhaps more

than one are Diso being disobedient to their parents making noise playing

Running around and it's it is very distracting from the most vital thing that is occurring during

that gathered Worship service that is hearing the Word of God exegeted.

What is your response to my complaint?

Am I being too?

Fussy or is there something lacking in the parenting of these people who are permitting this

with their children?

Well,

and

yet and

yet I

think

many of

us can

watch a few

banging.

We can stay focused on that game

I is but on the

other

end I think parent that

you're having

to take

them out

routinely and

over time

it will become one.

This is a reverend buzz.

Taylor has a comment for you.

Yeah, it seems to me that.

The problem that I'm picking up from the question is that it seems there are a number of times

parents who Don't seem to understand When it's time to get their

children out of the service.

And it can be very distracting when they were making very loud noises and things like that.

I think that's what the caller is referring to.

The emailer.

Thank You emailer.

Okay, but yeah, so I Agree, of course in our church.

They do practice Removing children when they're making noise and that you know, I really appreciate the parents that

do that but I think that I hope that there's a lot of listeners who

Get it into their head if your child is being very disruptive.

That's not a time to have a little discussion with them or anything.

It is time to get them out.

Yeah, I think it's on both ends.

I think it's a congregation becomes a little more patient and can handle a little more rustling of papers and a little more

fidgeting and Parents are all

happy medium.

As much as you can reach it as a good thing for for the benefit of our children and the congregation.

But now in in your book though, let the children worship.

You're you're talking primarily there about for example that

correct me if I'm wrong, but.

For example a youth group meeting during church services and things like that.

Where they're actually being removed for other like junior church, I think is a big one.

So you would say keep the family together at least for that morning worships.

Morning worship service.

What about like evening services and so forth?

I think any

time

that the

the

congregation

is

gathering

together for

corporate

started

for

this

children

and they're

doing second.

In a

very and this

is the major thrust of your book.

You're saying yes, that's correct.

Yeah, okay.

And what are some of the like the chapter contents?

And so the the book begins with just kind of a description of worship, you know.

Why is it that the church worships?

Understand

well.

CJ and

Lindenhurst,

Long

Island.

You have won a free copy of let the children worship compliments of Christian focused publications.

And you're going to be receiving that in the mail compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book service CV for

Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm CV BBS comm.

So look out in the mail for a package that has CV BBS comm on the

address label on the return address label and you should get that in at least a week.

And we are on top of the game right now.

Those of you who are winning books and Bibles should be getting them in a more rapid function

or rapid pace right now because of the fact that we seem to be caught up with all the.

The.

Bibles and books that were Delayed for a couple of weeks.

So we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for all their hard work over there at Cumberland Valley Bible book

service and shipping out all of our winners what they Received by submitting questions to our

guests during the daily broadcast.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

Who says if worship actually means worth?

Ship w -o -r -t -h sh -i -p.

Telling forth the worth of God.

Then it is possible for children to be capable of worship.

For is the point here that they are present in worship rather than participating in it.

Yeah,

I

think as we

look at

it

the

essence

of

when

we are

meeting

with when

we're

in worship

on Sunday mornings.

We're including our children in That

meeting with and he

is

Sinai to the

tabernacle 21

where heaven

and earth meet

in

this meeting with

God.

Well, thank you Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

And guess what?

I have a surprise for you Murray.

We usually don't Ship out books to our listeners who are living

overseas because of the extravagant or really steep

Shipping costs, but I'm gonna make sure that since the book is a fairly brief book and

light in weight I will make sure that we ship out a free copy of this book to you in

Kinross, Scotland and That is the book.

Let the children worship.

Compliments of Christian focus publications and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

CV bbs .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service.

Calm and.

We're going to go to a break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jason Halopoulos.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

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We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement To

youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above.

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at six three one three eight five eight three

three three, that's six three one three eight five eight three three three or

visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year -round Bible conference and retreat

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio

www .wlie540am .com.

Www .wlie540am .com www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

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Our time will be lively.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in our first guest for today who will be

with us for the next half hour as Jason Holopoulos assistant pastor at University Reform

Church in East Lansing, Michigan.

Our second guest coming up at the top of the hour 5 p .m. Eastern Time will be Jonathan

master and he is going to be addressing the sufficiency of scripture.

But if anybody would like to join us on the air now with a question.

Regarding Jason Holopoulos his book.

Let the children worship.

Our email address is Chris Orns and at gmail .com Chris Orns and at gmail .com.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says.

Maybe someone already asked this question to it.

Though it is very important how to talk with the pastor and elders of a church.

That is currently sending the children out to Sunday school During the worship service.

What does your guest advise about how to approach this topic?

Thanks so much for your ministry.

I Was Joe in Slovenia.

So Chris, could you could you repeat the question for me?

Oh.

Yes, I will repeat the question for you and I have to find it again because I just deleted it.

This is Joe in Slovenia.

Let's see, he asked the question and I have to re -enlarge it because it's microscopic on his font that

he emailed me with.

So I am enlarging the question now and his question is.

Maybe someone already asked this question.

Though it is very important I think is what he meant to say.

There's a typo here though.

It is very important how to talk with the pastor and elders of a church.

That is currently sending the children out to Sunday school during the worship service.

What does your guest advise about how to approach this topic?

I guess is what he's saying is how do you talk to your pastor your own pastor or elders?

If when a worship service starts the children have their own kind of Children's

worship service or Sunday school that they are being led out of the sanctuary where the adults are

gathered into another Assembly for children alone and I and I guess he's just asking for advice.

How do you speak to your own elders about that or he's asking for advice on that?

Yeah, I think that's an excellent question.

I really appreciate that.

You know as a pastor, I I welcome Congregants

here in

the church and

I think that

that apply.

Have

wondered.

I think any path

you and

the leadership

will

contain

any pastor.

Well Joe

in Slovenia.

We thank you for providing an American address for us where we can Give you this free book

where we can ship that free book where your daughter lives in Georgia here in the United States.

So we will be shipping out to her To your attention a copy of let the

children worship by Jason Holopoulos.

Thanks for your sending in the question and please continue spreading the word.

About iron sharpens iron radio in Slovenia and beyond.

What did you say buzz and the rest of Europe?

Yes and.

Our email address if anybody else would like to join us is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state in your country of

residence if you live outside of the good old USA and we

have Tony in South Carolina.

And Tony with an eye Tony asks a

question that I have to enlarge her font too because it's too microscopic.

Let's see.

I believe Age segregated church gatherings are unbiblical and I believe age Segregation

is one of the primary causes for the worldly Christian youth that are walking away from the faith in

large numbers.

I recently Visited a family integrated church for about four weeks and I was amazed how quiet the children were

during worship Which lasted about an hour and a half.

I also noticed that this church Was made up primarily of large families with young children.

There were no senior citizens in the congregation of about 75 well over half

Were young children.

I am convinced that these parents were very much focused on teaching their children a real reverence For the

worship service and for behavior in the house of the Lord.

What a wonderful experience it was.

And that is Tony and South Carolina and folks when you submit your questions Please also give your

city as well as your state that would appreciate that.

But do you have any response to Tony's?

Comment.

Really it's more of a comment than a question.

Yeah, you know

it makes me think of

you know, Matthew's

gospel

the

Lord.

We gather

together.

I agree with

the

caller

it here

a few

weeks

ago.

We can look around and

it is one of the true

signs.

Well, thank you for the question Tony and Rock Hill, South Carolina.

And now we need your full address because we're going to be sending at you a free copy of The book

that we are discussing today Let the children worship.

And that's compliments of our friends at Christian focus publications and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service.

Shipping it out to you CV BBS calm at CV for Cumberland Valley BBS

calm so keep your eye open For a package from CV BBS calm and please give us

your full mailing address.

So we can have them get it out to you in a timely fashion.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York.

Who says I've often wondered if we are teaching our children to lie

when they are being told?

To sing hymns, especially up on the podium of the church as a Part of the

worship service where you have a children's choir or something like that.

Where children are singing words to hymns that they really don't believe or at least as you can tell they couldn't

comp possibly comprehend.

Do you think that that they're children.

Other words are children being taught to lie if they're just being Taught to sing words to him and you don't even really know if they

believe in these words.

Yeah.

Well, thank

you RJ

in White

Plains,

New York,

and

you

are

also

getting

a

free

copy of

let the

children

worship.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address so we can have CV.

BBS calm ship that out to you.

Thanks again for joining us on iron sharpens iron and please keep spreading the word in White Plains, New York

and beyond.

Before we run out of time I really want you to summarize those things that you primarily want etched in the hearts and minds

of our listeners today.

Jason,

you

know

what?

There were

there

were

four points

in that

sermon and

there'll be a day

that

they

will

worship

trainer or

whatever.

Well, I want to thank you so much pastor.

Jason holopolis for being on the program.

And I really enjoyed our first interview and I look forward to many more god willing if you if you are interested.

And if god is willing we'd love to have you back in the program with you as well and

appreciate your listeners.

And I want our listeners to know that the website for university reformed church in east lansing michigan

is universityreformedchurch .org.

Universityreformedchurch .org.

You guys really get a hold of a perfect website there before somebody else universityreformedchurch .org.

If anybody Wants to purchase this book that we have been discussing Let the children

worship you can go to cv bbs .com.

That's cv for crumble and valley bbs.

Revivalbookservice .com.

If you live in the uk You can go directly to christian focus publications, which is located in the uk.

And their website is christianfocus .com.

Christianfocus .com and you could type in the search engine right in the top left corner.

Let the children worship.

Let the children worship and that book will come up.

Well, thanks again, jason, and we look forward to your return god willing in the near future.

Thank you.

I look forward to being back with you.

God bless and don't go away folks because coming up next at a matter of moments.

We have our second guest jonathan master.

Discussing the sufficiency of scripture and also letting us know about a bible conference that he is participating in

in the very near future.

That is being conducted by the alliance of confessing evangelicals.

So don't go away we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat

center.

Nestled on the jersey shore Harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up

to 400.

For generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars.

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word.

An additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples

singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries.

90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington

and easily accessible.

Scores of notable christian groups frequently plan conferences at harvey cedars like the

navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of

confessing evangelicals.

Find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

hcbible .org.

Call 609 -494 -5689 609

-494 -5689.

Harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

Coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following christ.

Long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country.

And around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer donate pray or all

of the above.

For details call long island youth for christ at six three one three eight five eight three

three three, that's six three one three eight five eight three three three or

visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

I am chris arnes and host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world

magazine My trusted source for news from a christian perspective.

Try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of r .c. Sproul's book

relationship between church and state.

I rely on world because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis.

And world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth That's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine On -scene reporting from world radio

and the fully shareable content of world digital.

Simply visit wmg .org Forward slash iron sharpens

to get your world trial and dr Sproul's book all free no obligation with no credit card

required.

Visit world news group at wng .org.

Iron sharpens today.

Hi, i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you.

And we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

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Welcome back.

This is chris orange.

And if you just tuned us in our second guest today Who will be discussing the

sufficiency of scripture from 5 to 6 p .m. Eastern time is jonathan master.

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But right now, uh, jonathan master is our second and final guest for the day.

He is professor of theology and dean of the school of divinity at Carn university in

langhorne, pennsylvania.

Editorial director for the alliance of confessing evangelicals.

And host of the alliance podcast theology on the go.

He's the author of a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance after the westminster confession.

An editor of the god we worship and we are discussing the sufficiency of scripture.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron jonathan master.

Chris, thanks for having me.

It's great to be here.

And in studio with me is my co -host the reverend buzz taylor.

Hello.

Hello, how are you?

Just fine. Thank you.

Yes, and by the way, I think that our previous guest called you doug.

Yes.

But that's okay, it's a better name anyway.

Well, it was a first.

Um.

Tell us uh jonathan before we go into the.

The uh.

The the topic at hand of sufficiency of scripture a very vital topic, especially as we

celebrate The 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation.

Very appropriate and timely subject.

But uh, tell us something about Carn or cairn university in langhorne, pennsylvania, and I.

I should know how to pronounce that since I live in pennsylvania but if you could.

Uh, tell me how to pronounce that and tell us about the university.

Yeah, i'm happy to do that.

It's it's pronounced cairn university.

So you got it right the second time which is not too bad.

Four times than that, but we have uh.

Cairn university has been in existence since 1913.

So a little over 100 years and uh, we're a christian university uh committed to

the Inerrancy of scripture the centrality of the word of god and of jesus christ

on all of the the subjects of study.

Um cairn has a number of different majors.

I don't remember what the the current number is, but it's a significant number of things that students major in and degrees that are

offered but um but we uh.

Want every student we actually have every student take at least 30 hours 30

credit hours of bible and theology.

So that's sort of central to our core curriculum.

And then of course, we have a number of students who are actually preparing for gospel ministry.

And so they're taking even more than that, but all the students regardless of their major regardless of their um.

Their degree program are are taking a substantial amount of bible and theology and that kind of infuses

the the whole place, uh, so.

Yeah, cairn university langhorne pennsylvania.

We're a suburb of philadelphia.

Just just north of the city and um.

Love to have people check us out at cairn .edu.

And uh, and we can answer any questions you might have.

Now I personally know a lot about the alliance of confessing evangelicals since I have worked with them on

various events and know bob brady Very well and uh have participated

with them In certain ministry activities, but for our listeners who are unfamiliar with the

alliance of confessing evangelicals Why don't you share a bit of information about them?

Yeah, the alliance is a coalition of pastors and scholars and and church

men who hold the historic creeds and confessions of the reformed faith and.

The objective of the alliance is to proclaim biblical doctrine In order to foster a

reformed awakening in today's church.

The history of the alliance goes back a long way.

I first connected with it and sort of uh, you know learned a lot from alliance

materials, uh.

Through the ministry of the late james montgomery boyce, but um, the alliance is

generally hosting events.

Connecting pastors and churches and then we also have several alliance websites that post

daily content for all.

Different kinds of people.

There's there's reformation 21, which is perhaps the best node of our sites

placefortruth .org which is focused on biblical doctrine mortification of spin which some of your listeners might be

familiar with.

And then meet the puritans.

So, uh, the alliance has a lot of things going on and uh.

Always glad to connect with new people.

So if anyone has an interest in that i'll point out another website.

They can go to alliancenet .org and from there you can get to the other sites that i've mentioned.

Alliancenet .org alliancenet .org.

And also there are a couple of events coming up.

That god willing I am going to be at both of them with an exhibitors booth.

Uh where we have the philadelphia conference on reform theology coming up.

Uh, and we also have the faithful shepherd pastors retreat coming up.

In.

Harvey cedars, new jersey, which is on long beach island and the.

Uh, two events are both being conducted by the alliance of confessing evangelicals.

The first uh Is actually coming up tomorrow.

Uh, the one that is actually in byron center, michigan Which I didn't mention.

The philadelphia conference on reform theology is held in more places than just philadelphia.

Uh, the first one is going to be from march 24th through the 26th at the first christian reform church of

byron center Michigan which is in the grand rapids area.

That's the march 24th through the 26th.

The second philadelphia conference on reform theology the one that i'm attending God willing is

going to be at proclamation presbyterian church in bryn mar, pennsylvania April 28th

through the 30th and that is on the theme reformation recovering the essence of the gospel.

And of course you could go to that same website that our guests just mentioned for more details

alliancenet .org Alliancenet .org and click on events.

And also the faithful shepherd pastors retreat is being held in harvey cedars New jersey may

15th through the 17th in harvey cedars, new jersey and for more details on that

you can go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org and uh

Jonathan you are one of the speakers at one of the events coming up, aren't you?

Yeah, I am chris.

I'm scheduled to speak at uh one that you didn't mention which is the blue ridge bible conference.

That's next friday and saturday march 31st.

Uh and april 1st in harrisonburg, virginia.

So in the blue ridge area.

Uh at covenant presbyterian church down in harrisonburg.

And that too is also Kind of outlined on the on the same website.

So yeah, we've got a number of events coming up.

We've got the pcrt out in grand rapids tomorrow.

We've got uh, the blue ridge bible conference next week.

We have the other pcrt that you mentioned in bryn more and then and then the harvey cedars

Uh event as well.

So a lot of different things going on this spring and early summer.

Great.

Well, we give our email address for our listeners.

Uh that they can uh send in questions for you on our our topic today the

sufficiency of scripture.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state.

And country of residence if you live outside of the usa.

And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

For instance if you disagree with your own pastor.

On something we obviously don't want to identify you or your pastor by name.

Uh, but uh any other reason that you're asking a question, please.

Give at least your first name city and state and country of residence.

And joe in slovenia again, uh who asked our first guest.

A question.

He is asking our current guest a question on the sufficiency.

The sufficiency of scripture he says.

Dear brother chris i'm puzzled by certain pentecostals and charismatics who On the one hand

claim to affirm the sufficiency of scripture.

While on the other hand practice condone or even promote the notions of believers getting new direct

revelation.

Listen to supposed modern -day prophets and apostles who proclaim new direct revelation.

And engage in what amounts to reading omens when they interpret everyday occurrences as

signs from god.

How is it that large segments of evangelicalism are so confused about the sufficiency of scripture and how to adhere

to it?

And what is the meaning of sufficiency and how is that understanding applied in the church?

In individual christian life.

Thank you for this needed topic.

If you could uh, jonathan.

No, that's a great question.

Actually a lot of different questions in there.

I'm, sorry.

I've chris.

I i've forgotten the the listener's name.

His name is joe and he lives in slovenia.

Okay, joe.

Thanks for that question.

Um.

A lot of things packed in there so obviously the focal point of your question had to

do with uh, some modern pentecostal and charismatic teachers that claim new revelation and

No, I I I agree with what you're saying.

I think that if they're claiming To believe in the sufficiency of the scripture, but then essentially

in the same sentence Saying that in fact we need new revelation because that's the that's the

issue that that they believe that this is Absolutely necessary for the faith and life of the church then but I agree

with with your confusion.

I think that is a confused Statement and and one of those uh, two things can't be

true.

So so I think you're right.

I think they're undermining the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture at the end of your question.

You asked I think a a slightly broader Uh question as well, which was you know, what do we mean

by this?

And and that's an excellent question to ask because I think part of the confusion even perhaps in some of the

speakers that you're encountering Is that they may not mean the same thing that we

mean when they talk about?

Scripture's sufficiency what what I mean when I talk about it and what I think uh,

Those of us Represented by the alliance and other things like that

would would mean when we say it is is that That god has given us in his

word all the things we need for an understanding

of The salvation that's given in jesus christ for our faith and life

For our faith and life as individual christians and our faith and life in the context of

the local church so That's that's what we're saying that that in fact, we don't need

additional revelation.

We don't need uh, The traditions of men to explain these kinds of things to us.

And in fact that those things when they are When people attempt to add them

actually undercut the uh, the authority of of the scriptures.

So that that that's maybe a summary of it and and and joe forgive me if i'm if i'm omitting a part of

your question.

But but I think that captures what you're what you're after and I agree with you 100.

In fact I'll tell you in the westminster confession of faith.

It explicitly says this it says It talks about the sufficiency of scripture and then it said unto which

nothing at any time is to be added whether by new revelations of the spirit or traditions

of Men, and that I think is the traditional protestant understanding Of what we mean when we talk about scripture

sufficiency.

Thank you, joe.

Slovenia.

And by the way, my co -host the reverend buzz taylor for a period of his christian life

even as a pastor Was a charismatic.

He's had quite the journey.

Jonathan.

He Started off in his christian life as a fundamentalist baptist became later on in his life

charismatic uh, then wound up with the Uh, the church of god

finley, ohio denomination, which is more like a wesleyan baptist group.

And then he eventually, uh became what he is now a presbyterian uh a cessationist

presbyterian.

But if you could reverend buzz, uh.

When you were a charismatic, how did you?

How were you uh able to harmonize if at all?

The sufficiency of scripture and the fact that charismatics by and large believe in

Ongoing a new revelation from god and also believe In the manifestations of

tongues and other things.

Where you are speaking?

Uh, uh an unknown language apparently.

Allegedly and these things are these languages and these things that you're speaking are not

in the scripture themselves.

So, how do you how do you harmonize these things?

Okay, well i'm going to have to say first of all some of the things i'm going to say now, please remember I do not believe these things now.

You don't believe them anymore.

Right?

Yeah, but uh, of course I I've mentioned over and over again that uh, I never was

what you would call a good charismatic because uh, one of the things that I had learned, uh from

bible college and uh, from uh previously my my baptist background is

that uh, The word is very important and uh, uh, I

never really I never believed in Uh extra biblical revelation.

In fact, my belief in tongues was more related to a prayer language.

And that's why i'm saying I do not agree with that now.

So, you know, i'm not saying tongues is a prayer.

Wouldn't that have been though?

A revelatory thing even though yes.

Well, yes.

In many most of my friends and they're thinking yes, that would have been it but that was never actually a part of Of

my thinking that used to bother me.

That you know, like if if scripture is sufficient Then what is all this extra revelation?

So like I said when I was even charismatic, I wasn't really what you would call full -blown charismatic.

I was more like a a non -cessationist Fundamentalist.

Mm -hmm.

And of course jonathan, uh, as I mentioned earlier since this is the 500th anniversary of the

protestant reformation when martin luther Nailed the 95 theses to the door of

the castle church in which wittenberg protesting the church's sale of indulgences

In order to purchase the souls of themselves and their loved ones uh or lessen the

time of of Themselves and and their loved ones being in purgatory.

And uh this uh teaching of the sufficiency of scripture is one of the hallmarks of the protestant

reformation one of the pillars or watchwords.

Uh, why is it so important?

Uh when we embrace this doctrine.

That.

We keep it Alive and fresh and vital and important and in the forefront

Of our communication with those in the church of rome and eastern orthodoxy and others Within the

realm of what is known as christendom.

Who.

Obviously have come to embrace False gospels or different gospels than the one in the scripture.

Yeah, I think in discussions with those communities It becomes important

With respect to the introduction of of tradition.

Added to uh scripture so so.

Um again just to return to the language that I was quoting earlier.

Uh, you know, we we we learn about the new revelations of the spirit so -called new

revelations of the spirit.

Being something that chips away at the sufficiency of scripture, but also the traditions of men Being

something that that can chip away at that sufficiency and primacy of the word of god.

So I think that might be where the real Rub is.

Now it's difficult to speak in generalities about this because as anyone knows who has

spoken with roman catholic friends or eastern orthodox friends.

Uh, what what you quickly realize is that?

You know oftentimes They're they're coming at this in very very different ways.

But but at a at a fundamental level There's a commitment a

dogmatic commitment in the roman church to Traditions

that are on essentially equal footing With with the scriptures and that

are necessary For the faith and life of individuals and for

the corporate life of of the church.

Yeah, in fact, I orchestrated A theological debate recently, uh in carlisle,

pennsylvania in january of this year.

Between two friends of mine, uh, one. Dr Tony costa a professor of apologetics at

toronto baptist seminary the other robert singenis founder of catholic apologetics international.

And the theme was mary sinless queen of heaven or sin sinner saved by grace.

And it was quite breathtakingly Disturbing to hear my

catholic friend roberts and jenis declare that without mary there is no

salvation.

And uh basically the debate as I always guess it will

when I have a debate.

When I organize a debate with a uh protestant and a roman catholic it really always

Eventually gets back to the issue of the sufficiency of scripture or even more specifically

sola scriptura that scripture alone Is our sole inerrant infallible authority over the church?

And uh Without the sufficiency of scripture.

This is where all of these Heretical doctrines and

Even bizarre teachings get developed and accepted into the church.

Not only with our roman catholic and eastern orthodox friends, but even as the aforementioned Pentecostals are

many within their ranks if you don't have The scripture alone as your guide and you don't believe they're sufficient

anything is likely to creep in am I right?

Well, I think that's certainly the danger.

I mean that that it doesn't really.

Uh, you don't really have those god -given limits for what might creep in and it's interesting of course because

Jesus dealt with this in his own day.

He spoke with uh, those teachers of the law who were adding to the law.

And and he he he says in no uncertain terms by adding to it.

You're actually Undermining it completely and so I think you're right.

I think that's ultimately what's at stake in these kinds of debates.

We're going to go to our final break of the day right now and if you'd like to join us on the air Our email

address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C h r i s a r n z e n gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the usa.

We do have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we will try to get to you as soon As

possible before.

The program is over.

But don't go away god willing we will be right back with these messages.

And more of jonathan master on the sufficiency of scripture.

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Welcome back.

This is chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in our second guest today who will be on for the remaining half

hour of the program is Jonathan.

Master professor of theology and dean of the school of divinity at cairn university in langhorne,

pennsylvania.

Editorial director of the alliance of confessing evangelicals and host of the alliance podcast

theology on the go.

He's also the author of a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance after the westminster confession

and editor of the god we worship.

We are discussing the sufficiency of scripture and our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

If you have any questions for him Chris arnson at gmail .com.

And before I go to any of our listener questions because there are a couple of people waiting I wanted to get to the heart of

the matter from the scripture with you jonathan.

Obviously, uh.

Since you are speaking on the sufficiency of scripture at your next conference uh, second

timothy 3 16 through 17 must be at the heart of what you're discussing and that

says the apostle paul.

Uh saying in his letter to timothy.

All scripture is inspired by god and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction

for training and righteousness.

So that the man of god may be adequate equipped for every good work.

Obviously uh if the prayer to mary and the

saints if the sacrifice of the mass.

And a lot of these things that are unique to roman catholic belief and practice are good works.

The scriptures should be sufficient to teach them, but they do not.

Am I right?

Well, yeah, you're absolutely right.

I mean and and just a few verses before what you quoted in second timothy 3 16 and 17.

Paul is very clear when he even describes timothy's own conversion.

He says from childhood.

You've been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith

in christ.

Jesus.

So.

You're absolutely correct that the the gospel that's proclaimed clearly in the scriptures is the gospel

of grace alone.

Through faith alone and christ alone.

And and even in the context you read which we primarily go to to to.

To sort of zero in on the inspiration and and the sufficiency of the scripture but but even

right there.

It couldn't be clearer that this is this is the gospel and this is this is uh, the

essence of what we are to believe.

Yes, and that uh term there, uh.

All scripture is inspired.

I believe the original greek is theanoustas which actually means god breathed.

Does it not?

Yeah, that's exactly right and it's an it's an unusual term.

In fact, it's a unique term in the scriptures and uh, And and and you captured it

perfectly.

It's it's breathed out by god.

Um, that's that's the the meaning of that of that greek term and it's it's as if paul

Uh had to grapple for a term perhaps even coin a term to describe

exactly.

Um what we see in the scriptures now, how do you react to the Roman

catholic who may say.

And this of course would be typically the more Well -read catholic or a catholic apologist.

Your average catholic might not say this.

But a well -read catholic or somebody who has heard a catholic apologist

oppose the concept of sola scriptura may say.

Well, well paul is only talking about the old testament here because the new testament wasn't even complete.

At the time that paul wrote that to timothy.

So how could you use this?

As a proof text.

For sola scriptura that includes the new testament.

Well.

Uh, if this is inspired by the holy spirit would not the holy spirit.

Uh knowing all things know that there would be further revelation that would be a part of the canon later on

after paul wrote this.

Well, absolutely.

That's true.

Um.

But I think you can even even go a step further than that than that because that term

scripture is used by paul in first timothy and.

In first timothy chapter 5 it's a different kind of context.

But but paul quotes from two different scriptures in in first timothy 5 beginning

in verse 18.

And he uses the word scripture for both and one of them is from the old testament and the other one is from

the new testament from it's a quotation from from luke's gospel.

And then you know, we could we could debate perhaps a little bit whether this comes before second

timothy or not, uh, first timothy certainly does but.

At the end of second peter peter does the same kind of thing because he talks about

paul's letters Being hard to understand in places and he says which the ignorant

and unstable twist to their own destruction.

As they do the other scriptures that's in second peter 3 16.

So so I think.

Ultimately what you're saying is correct.

About the knowledge of the holy spirit.

Um, and and and that is a point worth bringing out, but I think too we can say no, you know.

This word scripture is used to describe new testament texts.

Not simply old testament texts.

Now with that said of course, you know.

The book of revelation had not yet been given and other texts that we have.

Probably weren't in in its existence.

Uh when paul wrote those words in second timothy.

So that's where I think you'd want to lean on the argument that you made.

But I think I think there is ample evidence to say no.

Scripture isn't just used of the old testament.

Although for sure it would include all of the old testament.

Paul at least has that in mind.

But but there is there is some evidence that even in paul's mind he will use that term to talk about new testament

texts.

Uh, we have Bb in cumberland county pennsylvania.

Who says.

How do you respond?

To the one opposing solo scriptura or the sufficiency of scripture.

Who says that we who are protestants don't really consistently believe.

Or uphold this principle because when our pastors Get up to their pulpits.

They don't just read the bible.

They teach what it means in their own words therefore relying upon Human reasoning and

logic not just the words that are contained in the bible.

How do you respond to that?

Kind of an accusation.

Well, bb, that's a that's a great question very perceptive question I think the difference is

the major difference is this that we're testing everything That at least we should be we're

commanded to test everything that a pastor or other teacher might say by and

against the the written word of god, so The model that might uh be the best one for

us is what happened in the berean church when when those christians heard the apostle paul

Explained the scriptures to them which he he apparently did on a daily basis They would go home and

search the scriptures to see Whether what he was saying was was true.

So Look, it's always been the case that the word of god is proclaimed

um by The servants of the lord that's true in the old testament.

We see Ezra stand up on a on a wooden platform and and read the

scriptures and it's Explained to them by ezra and by the levites and we see of course in the new

testament this kind of proclamation Happening all the time in the book of acts for instances as paul will

Rent out of the hall of tyrannus and and and proclaim Uh the word of god to

to hearers there.

So so the fact that there's a teacher I think is is Is different in a in a in

significant ways From from the idea that there is something standing over

against scripture through which we must filter all of scripture.

So even the if the apostle paul can be questioned and if he in fact Tells congregations

to to search the scriptures and question what he's saying that we should be doing that with our pastors the problem of

course is in for instance the roman catholic, uh

magisterial teaching Can't be checked by the word of god.

That is that is as a as an individual church a goer You're

you don't have The the right to be able to check these things against the scriptures and

and let the word of god speak.

So I think that's the big difference.

Although you're absolutely right Um, we do have teachers and we should have teachers.

I think they're necessary and scriptural But but I think that's different from

from having a tradition added onto the word of god with the authority of god I mentioned I think I alluded

briefly to a conversation that jesus had with the false teachers and and what he says to them is he quotes

from Isaiah 29 and says they teach as doctrines the commandments of

men and that's the real problem as I see it.

In fact if the pastor was not Explaining what the word of god says

He would be violating the very scripture that he has up there on the pulpit with him because the because the

scriptures themselves not only.

Uh.

Have in their design that the church has teachers among us.

They even the scriptures even tell us that we have to be careful About who we appoint, uh

as a teacher.

There are certain qualifications to that.

That's absolutely right chris, that's a it's a great point.

And and you know when paul Gives this these instructions to timothy.

We we were just kind of uh meditating on first or second timothy a minute ago and and

and in second timothy, uh,.

What paul defines as an approved worker is one who rightly?

Handles the word of truth.

And so for a pastor to not do that Is actually you're absolutely right for

him to abandon what god calls him to do in the first place.

Uh ronald in eastern suffolk county long island wants to know.

Uh, how do you respond to the anti -calvinist who says that we who are reformed never would believe the

things we believe.

By just reading the bible that we would have to have learned them from someone else who was a calvinist.

I think there are two levels on which I would want to engage that conversation.

Um on the one hand I would say of course, it's true that we

all have teachers Uh from whom we've learned various things and and it's

impossible for any of us whatever our theological persuasion Whether calvinist or not

it's impossible for any of us to Hypothetically figure out

what we would know if no one had ever taught us the scripture because as you as you pointed out earlier That's just not the

pattern that's been set up in the word of god.

We do have pastors.

We do have teachers.

So on the one hand, it's it's sort of impossible to answer that at a personal level I would say though at a at a

bigger level.

My answer would be that It all the all the

Reformers and certainly those who follow them Are very clear about the fact that the

word of god is to be the supreme authority that should act as a check on their

teachings so um, I think we need to engage in in in

In looking at the scriptures ourselves in searching the scriptures ourselves and in seeing if these Things that

we've been taught or these things that we've encountered Are are true and I would I would say that

anyone who affirms the authority and sufficiency of scripture should be doing the exact same thing.

So it's one of those arguments that could really do of the calvinist as

it is of the non -calvinist at one level And yet at another level what we really need to be

talking about is not Who got something from where but is this in the word of

god?

Is this actually biblical and i'm persuaded that the doctrines of grace

are Absolutely biblical and and in fact central to the gospel message in the

scriptures.

Yeah, what you just said is, uh bolstered by uh acts chapter 8

when philip, uh is confronted by the ethiopian eunuch.

And.

The says, uh in verse 30.

Then philip ran up to the chariot And heard the man reading isaiah the prophet.

Do you understand what you are reading philip asked?

How can.

How can he said unless?

Someone explains it to me.

So he invited philip to come up and sit with him and uh, so there was uh,

Uh, obviously the necessity Of the scriptures being uh taught there.

Yeah, that's a great example.

I mean it's really it's really found throughout the scriptures, isn't it?

I mean you could start with moses and and the levites and you could move on to

Ezra and you could and you could look at the philip and the ethiopian eunuch or the apostle paul or even

timothy's own role.

And and that is what we see that there are teachers of the word of god and that's as it should be.

And then we need to be checking everything against the standard of the scripture.

And uh this also goes back to um

uh the fact that People have pre preconceived notions or

presuppositions.

About.

Someone else's beliefs that may come.

Uh from just what they've heard.

Uh in in someone slandering that other person's beliefs.

I i'm convinced that most anti -calvinists have never really thoroughly read the writings of calvinists themselves.

And they read most of what they know about calvinism is Found in the books that

they have read or the sermons that they have heard.

By anti -calvinists not by the the men who believe in these things themselves.

And uh, I for instance I came to the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Well, not only because I was hearing them preached at the church where I was, uh baptized and a

new member but the the straw that broke the camel's back.

As far as my blindness to these things was when someone gave me a

Tract john george whitfield's letter to john wesley on election.

I didn't know who george whitfield was.

I didn't know who john calvin was.

I didn't know who charles spurgeon was but it was the scriptures that george whitfield used In that tract

not the eloquence of george whitfield but the scriptures that george whitfield

used when uh trying to.

Uh.

Convey these truths to john wesley.

They're the things that god used to open my eyes and because I had no Previous bias

as to what george whitfield or john calvin or where anybody else believed. I didn't know who they were.

I just wanted to know what the bible taught.

And it was it was the scriptures alone that revealed these things.

Uh to me as being true.

And on top of that years ago, I organized a debate on the radio between an orthodox jewish

journalist and a free will believing fundamentalist baptist pastor

and I was.

I sat there in astonishment as I heard the elderly jewish journalists say to the baptist

pastor in the debate Now let me get this straight you believe that god has Elected

before the world began a certain number of people for salvation.

And he has bypassed all the rest of humanity.

Uh who will die in their sins and go to hell?

And the baptist pastor interrupted this jewish man and said oh, no.

No, no, you don't you don't understand.

I'm not a calvinist.

So you what you're talking about is calvinism and the jewish man said Calvinism what is that?

I've never heard that that word before i'm talking about your bible.

And so it was obviously this jewish man who claimed to be A student of the new testament, even though he

was not a christian.

He said that he had read it hundreds of times.

Uh.

He came to the conclusion that all christians believed in unconditional election.

Just because he saw them clearly taught in the new testament.

Yeah, it's a great story.

I mean I I I think it is striking in the new testament to see the way

in which paul sort of sometimes almost Casually throws out

these terms to describe the people to whom he's writing you God's chosen ones you

god's elect.

And then of course There are the passages the sort of romans 9 and ephesians 1 that that drive these points

home.

But but even in the more casual ways that he talks.

It's clear that the doctrine of election undergirds his whole understanding Of what god

has done in jesus christ.

So, you know that I I haven't had the experience that you've described with someone coming to the new testament uh

from that perspective, but but I can sort of imagine the way in which they would just see it as

almost infused in everything.

And i'd like you now basically to summarize What you most want our listeners to have

etched in their hearts and minds regarding the sufficiency of scripture before we run out of time.

You know there there was in an ongoing

debate and and battle really that we constantly have the

inerrancy of the scriptures the fact that the scriptures are fully truthful fully

reliable without error in their original manuscripts.

And I think we need to continue to To remind ourselves of the authority and truthfulness of the

scriptures.

But along with that, I think what we can easily neglect Is the idea that the scriptures

are sufficient?

For our life and governance that is god has not held out on us.

I meet I meet people all the time who are struggling with Sin or struggling with doubt in different ways

and they they really want to know what's the secret ingredient that i'm missing.

What prayer do I need to pray?

What guru do I need to talk to you?

What what?

Ecstatic Gift do I need to embrace or try to pursue in my life?

And and all those things ultimately Will bring you up short all those things are dead ends because

the lord has given us in his word what is necessary for our

understanding and knowledge of the lord jesus christ and what is necessary for our faith and life as

christians.

And and so what I would want to impress upon people is the richness of god's word

the the the need for us to continually be immersed in it and

and and and ultimately the goodness of god in giving it to us that

God says the things that are revealed belong to you and your children forever.

That you may observe the words of says in john 17 your word is

truth Sanctify them in the truth.

Your word is truth.

So We have in the scriptures what we need to come to a knowledge of the lord jesus christ

to grow in our knowledge of the lord jesus christ and to an

understanding of our faith and life that enables us to worship the lord all

of our hearts and It's it's a wonderful freeing truth To

grab a hold of it's freeing for individuals who are thinking that maybe they're missing something in their christian life.

It's freeing for pastors who are feeling discouraged by the apparent

fruitlessness that they're seeing in their ministries.

It's freeing for for all of us to recognize the goodness of god in giving

perfect and holy.

Amen.

And let's see.

We have time for one more question.

Uh, let's see here we have Christian in cummerland county pennsylvania

who says.

Isn't it true that although we as bible believing protestants? Have a strongly

held belief in the sufficiency of scripture.

That traditions that are man -made do exist among us and that they are even appropriate.

The problem becomes when we.

When we raise these traditions to an improper level of importance that conflict with the scripture.

Uh.

You uh have any comment on uh this question.

Well only to say that christian I think you're you're exactly right about that

tradition in itself is is not a bad thing.

It's a good thing paul talks about the the Pattern of sound

teaching that has been passed down to timothy.

There are these Traditions that were passed down even in the earliest time of the church

and there are traditions today, but you you put your finger on it exactly what we want to be

Really careful about is number one teaching traditions as if they are the word

of god and and then essentially putting those uh traditions

ahead of um the doctrines of The word of god so tradition is is a

good thing.

It's a wonderful thing.

It's something that we should embrace probably more than we do.

I think in general probably too Ready to just drop the traditional

formulations that have developed for us.

But but at the same time Christian you're exactly right.

What we don't want to be doing is teaching his doctrines the commandments of men.

Right, and of course the tradition itself, uh can't be uh unbiblical or anti -biblical can't

contradict the scriptures.

Absolutely, like so many of the things that the roman catholic church does are actually condemned in the scriptures such as the

idolatrous practices.

That's right.

I mean, so that's it.

That's another very important Warning chris that that we want to be checking every

tradition that we have received.

Uh more that we have been brought up in against the scriptures and very often, um, when we do

that we find that the The reason for it and perhaps there's a biblical basis and then sometimes many many

people I meet They realize.

Boy when I started to look at the bible, I realized that this is as you said contrary to scripture.

Yeah, I mean there are all kinds of things that uh the most uh.

Literal.

Christian.

Who uh takes the the the bible literally there are all kinds of traditions that

uh, those christians embrace and practice perhaps even sometimes unconsciously but uh some of

these they're they're they are completely neutral in regard to whether or not they are

Accepted, you know.

Whether they are they are compatible with the bible.

There's nothing inappropriate about them is what i'm trying to say.

Like for instance, you know, you might have one church that's more Liturgical and they may uh

in every worship service recite the lord's prayer.

Or they may do something just differently than other churches.

Some churches have a particular day of the month when they collect money for uh the poor or the

needs of those less fortunate in the church these kinds of things that are They that

contain biblical Uh teaching like providing for the poor but the way that has been

Put out in practice is a part of a tradition if you do it on the third sunday of every month or something.

Yeah, that that's that's exactly right.

I mean it's it's what john tells us in in first john four test the spirits.

And I think you could apply that In in some respects to the kinds of things you're saying about about various

traditions.

Okay, well I know that as you were saying earlier that you are going to be one of the speakers at the god has

spoken conference march 31st through april 1st at the blue ridge bible

conference In harrisonburg, virginia and for more information our listeners can go to alliancenet

.org alliancenet .org.

And any other contact information you care to give?

No, I think that's the best way to find out more information.

Uh, you can I think still register online.

Otherwise, you can register at the church and We'd love to see some of your

listeners come and join us there.

It should be a a very Enriching weekend.

Yes, and i'm going to be god willing at a number of the events that the alliance of confession Alliance of confessing

evangelicals is conducting.

So I hope to see you there.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.