July 29, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

You've probably heard their music. You've certainly heard on contemporary Christian radio. I refer of course to Phillips Craig and Dean PC and D. This is a song that you probably if you're in almost any Evangelical church at all have heard sung in your services and in fact since it's based primarily upon Galatians chapter 2 It makes sense that you might have heard.

It's called crucified with Christ one of the songs that hit a pretty high point in the charts for Phillips Craig and Dean and Today we're gonna be talking about that and the number of other things the controversy surrounding the issue of Theology and Music.

Yes a a topic that we've talked about before but it's back with a vengeance in the news and it certainly is back for us because the fact that Phillips Craig and Dean are going out on tour once again, and they are singing in churches that confess the doctrine of the Trinity and the issue is what about Phillips Craig and Dean and the doctrine of the Trinity and the whole issue of The Trinity and the gospel and Christian music and what is worship and who else to have on when talking about such things as that but someone who can address that that subject from a Position of expertise and that of course is our good friend Steve camp.

I can't be how you doing. Well, you know some of us are just have enough self-control That the only thing we've actually watched was O 'Reilly going after Michael Moore. So that was that is all honestly I have seen of the entire thing I just can't handle it my blood pressure.

I just had it checked just a few minutes ago In fact doctor's office 119 over 81 and that's because I have not been watching any television.

Yeah, well, that was a good thing, but hey, you know God sits in the Lord's views of the convention. But it's an honor to be with you and especially talking about this great importance of it today and especially temporary culture and especially within the church and Communicating great hate the great theological truths.

Put them in songs so that the common folk of the contemporary Christian music that I've been in now for 26 years logically precise Nor doctrinally consistent and I've been guilt for different pastors and people that the Lord is equipped in the languages and so we realize there can be minor this whole issue is that essentials of the faith the gospel of justification by faith alone or now the doctrine of the Trinity are being passed off as Seemingly trivial things or don't we all have holes in our theology.

Don't we all? Segments of our faith that aren't intact. What's the big deal? And and boy I tell you when Satan attacks the Word of God the character of God in the gospel Let's issue with you this evening.

Well now you got in touch with me just a few days ago because.

Of of the discussion going on amongst broadcasters and people like that Christian artists concerning the subject of Phillips Craig and Dean they've released another CD and They are going back out on tour and Obviously, what's what we keep hearing is and let me give background to those who may be listening who are not familiar with this Number of years ago. I was sitting in a hotel room in Chicago I was speaking at a cult conference with people like Norman Geisler and a few other folks and I was writing an article of the CRI journal called loving the Trinity it was to piggyback on the release of my book with Bethany house called the forgotten Trinity and I Was listening to the very CD the exact CD that I was just playing as we started the program Phillips Craig and Dean favorite songs of all and I'm thumbing through some material that was sent to me by CRI and Lo and behold I run across a charisma magazine article talking about the inroads that oneness believers are making into evangelical the evangelical music area and Here I run across this mention the fact that Phillips Craig and Dean Are from a oneness background that these individuals in fact the way the charisma put it was that they were oneness Ministers right and so I I popped this thing out of my out of my computer and I sat there looking at the CD and the drive and looking at the screen and the screens called loving the Trinity and Here I'm listening to music by individuals who not only would not love the Trinity as I love the Trinity.

But in fact having engaged many oneness people in the past Would find the doctrine of the Trinity to be the mark of Babylon mystery religion and things like that now I started doing some research I wasn't just gonna trust charisma magazine and so I I Started pulling up websites and looking at stuff and lo and behold each of the churches that that these individuals the three men of Phillips Craig and Dean That that they go to I was able to quickly and easily discern Were oneness churches and they were not members of the United Pentecostal Church International Which if you really want my opinion is what Phillips Craig and Dean is telling people we are not a part of that movement.

Well, they're not I think they they broke off in the UPCI back in about 1993 or so when they had the big holiness code breakup there was a Basically what happened was the the the UPCI is a very strict very legal legalistically oriented Denomination the old-time oneness Pentecostals going all the way back to split with the assemblies of God a very very strict organization and they sent out a letter basically saying that if you're going to be involved in ministry UPCI you need to sign this letter talking about these Things you won't do and and so on and so forth and there were a bunch of churches that said we're not going to do it and they they broke off and Interestingly enough a number of these churches.

For example, the guy that I debated in 1999 Robert Sabin. Who was the individual who debated Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg show? Walter Martin and he Calvin Beisner many years ago he has left the UPCI even though he was there with Nathaniel Irshan and He now holds to sola fide, but still does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Well, if you look at these churches that are represented here, that's the kind of churches you're looking at. They're very Seeker friendly there they have really focused upon music in Worship and things like that and they're very large and and very open in that way.

And so when I wrote my article I gave the websites I gave the references and said, you know, these individuals are coming from a a oneness background. Well boy talk about something hitting the fan we start we start getting hit with stuff right and left and up and down and so Make a long story short.

I I obtained an email from Randy Phillips writing for writing in behalf of Phillips Craig and Dean it came from the Actual email address of Phillips Craig and Dean and the statements that were made were specifically oneness statements.

And that is we believe in one God who is eternal in his existence triune in his manifestation being both father son and Holy Ghost and That he is sovereign absolute in his authority now. Sadly I think one of the problems we're facing Steven these days is that there's just not many people left Who studied the Trinity to the depth to be able to go?

Excuse me, but that's an ancient heresy known as modalism, but that seems to be what's going on. I recognize that I got in contact with Phillips Craig and Dean. I talked with mr Dean not by voice but by letter a couple of times and So I did follow up on it.

And then it just sort of died down and then every about 18 months or so maybe it's going with CD releases I don't know, but every little bit boom here. It comes again and You contacted me because basically as we were talking earlier today.

Some folks have basically come out and said hey, they're fine Their their theology is fine and therefore they're getting to perform in. Well in the same churches that you'd perform it isn't that is that because that's correct in fact and again, right?

I think with the outset we have to preface this by saying this is not meant to be a Personal attack on these men of course. And no one is out on some sort of witch hunt here we're trying to fulfill Titus 1 9 teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict and To do that as your broadcast begins at the beginning of each Segment here the dividing line with grace and with reverence gentleness and meekness and so here.

Yeah, this has come up on Forum board discussions that I am privileged to participate on with and several hundred broadcasters around the country. It's also come up in discussions. It's recently been brought up again in emails that I get several hundred a week and a good portion of those lately.

Have been on this theme. Part of the problem James is what you'd said, you know I think in when when you when you hear something taught from the pulpit tactic, you can analyze it. You can quantify it.

You get the tape you can listen to it. You take it to the scriptures you examine it. The problem today is that when Psalm 119 54 says thy statutes are my songs in the house of my pilgrimage. The Word of God is also the theme of our song.

We are to let the Word of Christ dwell in this richly teaching and admonishing one another with psalms hymns and spiritual songs. The problem today is there is no very few sadly to say pastor choir the artists of those churches to submit their lyrics to Them ahead of time so they can examine them For biblical accuracy so that that local church and those artists and I would think and the labels and publishers Would have confidence in knowing that what they're singing about in representing is Absolutely consistent with scripture because of great opportunities to the Internet and rate Christian radio and other things.

As long as something is popular. It doesn't need to necessarily be true. When when you when you put bad theology off of Mount St. Helens and the dust and the ash that gets into the jet stream. There's containment at that level order of teaching people will take music in a different way.

They adopt it in a different way and because of that it is something that live with them. Songs of worship that PC and D have done. That it is something that now those songs are introduced as people may not know the context of those songs.

This is the same thing that Arius did In the early church his heresy or he would say that Christ was divine. But yet created and he denied his eternality of Athanasius would put these heresies and songs Travel from village to village and let the time he won the hearts of the people.

Obviously the truth of God will always prevail as Athanasius did in the discussions and the arguments similar thing James. We're now the battle is not from without. Oops, Craig and Dean and I've tried emailing them the Orthodox view of the Trinity.

And if everything that they have printed on the websites and their own churches represent I want to be the first one to their forgiveness for whatever misunderstanding I've had of this issue with them rectify that and to clear up their reputation if on the other hand.

All of the material that we have read and their silence on this issue and so forth. Involving even their own local churches and their statements that they've made in the past on the Trinity doctrine. Anyway, but share will of Jesus Christ what anti-trinitarian doctrine does it re-events and therefore robs God?

Why. Because it's a different that he is.

Well, it's right there that we run into the problem though, of course because so many. And I would say even if some of those that are listening to us right now Would say well not now. Wait a minute. Steve what you're saying.

If you take it to its logical conclusion basically Require me to stop listening to almost anything that's done today simply because if you start putting together a list of People who are really concerned about the theology expressed their music.

It's going to be a very very short list. And not only that but I'm just gonna throw these out here and let you handle them because I'm sure you've heard him before. But not only that but you know If you look down at the bottom of the page in your hymnal even like the Trinity hymnal Which which we use at our church And you start doing some looking around some of the names and stuff like that and start doing some digging.

Well, for example, we have a Presbyterian pastor in channel and he has to keep telling you which one of these it is. I think it's faith of our fathers if I recall correctly. He says look this is coming from the Roman Catholic background.

Are people saying the battle hymn the Republic written by a Unitarian. You know stuff like that. Is there a difference I guess what I'm going to ask is this a how do you deal with the fact that there's just a lot of lousy theology out there in music a right and B.

Is there a difference? between inviting Phillips Craig and Dean into the worship center of a Trinitarian Church without knowing whether they actually believe in a doctrine Trinity or not and singing a song that in your context you understand it to mean X but the author living ten years ago or a thousand years ago meant why.

Yeah, very good question. Let me answer it by this that it's true that they're even in the hymnology that we see things hymns written that are not scriptural or written from the well of Unitarianism and other things and I think it would do well for those publishers To go back through and to again constantly be editing those hymnals.

I think that that's fair. None of us have arrived in the totality of our theology. I know I have blind spots. As dr. McCarthy likes to say he just doesn't know where they are. I don't know where mine are either until others come alongside and point them out we are to stay teachable if we're truly knowing the Lord and As we're growing daily in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have to be teachable on those things so we understand we give grace on this we give that there's a progression of that and That if this was done in ignorance if they didn't really realize this then now that they have knowledge of those things.

Let's we have a bad muffler or in certain years to make sure that that part is fixed for safety standards and so forth. So that the product maintains a level of excellence. I think in the same way that the publishers should read message To make it orthodox or to pull the song entirely number one number two.

I do think there is a difference James between that and what we're seeing today because Singing a song it may not even resonate it. You know so much of what we and people just kind of go over when you are standing face-to-face with one.

That you have bought their CD. There's admiration and mister to your heart or encourage you in some way. There's a bit of a excuse the term, but there's a bit of a bonding that takes place pedantically through a hymnal and what we have here is then the power of influence and persuasion is absolutely profound by the person that is standing on that platform and Able to influence people to a greater very very concerning today because I'm under the firm belief That Jerry Springer doesn't do as much harm for the cause of Christ as bad theology does.

Because when you have bad theology and represent a false view of who God is that has eternal consequences. Frankly, I would much rather have people sing a Bruce Springsteen song than a song of bad theology.

This isn't going to confuse them spiritually on these issues when you have a group like Phillips Craig and Dean or an author or speaker like TD Jake's who Represent themselves as true believers in Jesus Christ.

They are singing in churches a and therefore they are being touted as being or okay.

So aside from the confusion that would come from that here's here's the next question. We've already got one caller I want to I want to get to and there's other things we want to talk about and and so on so forth.

But but let me throw this out here. Here's here's the question that a lot of people are having is that look look. Like the song that I was playing before is basically Galatians 220 with a little commentary added, but there's.

You would really have a hard time digging through Phillips Craig and Dean's music and finding in the actual lyrics. Anything that would communicate to you if you didn't know better. That these individuals are not talking about the same God we're talking about they're talking about a a Unitarian situation they're coming from a Unitarian situation.

They don't believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but the music doesn't communicate that I was seeing or listening to it. And I had not heard anybody saying anything now. I had noticed. I'll be honest I had noticed that I didn't hear anything positive along those lines, but then again.

How many Modern Christian artists do you get anything really? Positive about the doctrine of the Trinity. I mean it's just you know and in fact. Let's face it There are some pretty well-known guys. Some of their songs are absolutely modalistic in their statements, but they don't even know it.

I mean, they're so ignorant of the doctrine. They're even aware that what they're saying in their lyrics is actually unorthodox well.

And and again you bring up a good point and briefly all I can say is this though at face value. Like this song you were playing at the beginning of the show here today does not represent a Anti Trinity.

Still we know that's the fact. We know that the Jesus even though he's quoting Paul. We know that the Jesus that they are singing about from their point of view is a different.

Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible. In fact he's two persons. He's the father and the son and in that theology.

Yeah, that's right, and that that's something that has again proof.

Okay, let me throw this out because this is what people say to me. They say not now look James, but think about this. What if I don't know that. What if if I have no idea? Or let's let's even let's even make it more complicated for you here before I bring a first caller on okay.

What if they are singing a trinity a song written by a trinitarian. You see in these situations people are saying well, but but can't I worship in that context and and what if I don't know? Can I use the song we were playing at the beginning of the program which sounds so beautiful to me?

Can I use that in the worship in my church if I don't know. I mean let's let's let's say. There's someone that's was a real real sensitive spirit listening right now, and they've always loved that song in fact.

They've performed it in their own church. Completely and totally without any knowledge of what the background was. Yeah now that doesn't that introduce Something to us there that that you know that does that change?

How do you how do you handle a situation like that well again?

I think if someone is acting naively and in complete ignorance Due to the context of those things you have to give grace to the listener and to those that have maybe introduced it in Ignorance in time though is like this and others that can give light to this.

And a lot of people know a lot of the bookstores that are out there radio stations I won't name Churches, but that are having these guys in know the problems of their beliefs. Listen let's be painfully honest here if Phillips Craig and Dean sold 10 ,000 years 50 people a night Churches would say oh listen we hear they're anti-trinitarian.

We've done some initial research. Yeah, let's have it, but when they can bring in 4 ,000 people to their to their Sunday evening Popular constantly within the top 10 of certain radio formats if they're selling XYZ number of albums through the bookstore change.

Then you have something James lock to the New Testament is in the 21st century and that is money. Because every time commerce and faith intersects on these issues when and believe me that is the bottom line thing here bookstore owners radio stations concert promoters and Churches that are selling tickets for these concerts will not take a stand because it means a loss of tremendous revenue.

Ah well speaking of bookstore owners. Let's Let's go ahead and take our first first call really quick. Actually actually I don't he doesn't need to identify himself. But I happen to know that our first caller is an owner of a Christian bookstore.

And so let's let's just talk to the anonymous bookstore own.

So he doesn't get in trouble. Let one the one time in my life you allow me to be anonymous. It's Frank in Arkansas for all you people. It's all right. I don't have to. People in the bookstore listening to us right now.

I just wanted to make you feel you know. Comfortable well I appreciate that listen Steve. You know I I pray. How are you? I'm well and it yeah, I thank you. I make fun of dr. O's fan hood of you, but you know you really are somebody who Was holding up the light to the industry and and I appreciate that.

Oh, thank you. You know I take a lot of friendly ribbing for being about because see base where theological watersheds happen. You know we tend to sell what's what's what's hot and and don't think about what it's really full of out there.

But in in they wasn't last month. But two months ago in the CBA magazine Richard Abanas made a great point. That the retailer is responsible for what's on his shelf. You know and for me that the question and and Abanas never really answered it or if he did they didn't get it in the articles.

Where do you draw the line you know for me? It's real easy to say okay? No, Benny Hinn no Paul Crouch. No TD Jake's. You know you you page through relevant magazine, and you realize well. That shouldn't be on my rack.

It's real easy to figure out, but you know when we get to. Let me just I'll give you I'll give you a musical example in a non-musical example. Jump five you know where's the offense to the gospel? I don't know if there's an offense to the gospel, but where's the gospel at the same time?

You know that that's a tricky one for me because it's you know if it's competing with secular music for kids. Maybe that's that's better than not and on the non-music side. You know CS Lewis. You know historically recognized by by a you know a large ecumenical group of people whether you agree in that ecumenical groups Ideology or not and somebody who is influenced 20th century Christianity in a big way.

You know how do you where do you draw the line on that gray area because I you know ultimately I agree with the point. About Phillips Craig and Dean it hurts me it pains me because before I knew about the theology I thought these were guys out there singing it for Jesus.

You know, but you know the Jesus. They're singing about it's not the Jesus. I know yeah, that's right. Well very simply, and I appreciate the comment here Frank. And I do appreciate the scrutiny that you're showing there with some of the authors that you met.

That's a tremendous step in the right direction I would say it goes back to qualifier in the essentials unity in the non-essentials liberty and in all things charity. In the essentials of the faith there has to be absolute clarity in unity on the gospel.

The doctrine of the Trinity the bodily resurrection of Christ the authority and veracity is those key essential things. From the Apostles right through the early church fathers to current-day. There has never been a time in historical orthodox biblical Christianity where someone could affirm an Anti-trinitarian position and be considered orthodox.

They were never even considered part of legitimate Christianity. And I think that's the thing we're not talking. If I can we're not talking speaking in tongues or not speaking in tongues. We're not talking length of hair whether someone has to wear a tie or not.

This this is not these are these are frivolous things and in most most circles. But yet on the essentials of the faith. This is the key issue today. Even the core beliefs the doctrine of justification by faith is being attacked by the new perspective of Paul.

We have the character of God in his sovereignty and omniscience being attacked by open theism now. We have Christian artists. Admittedly at least in the past and pastoring and being ordained and serving in Oneness churches denying the doctrine of the Trinity denying Father Son and Holy Spirit co-equal co-eternal.

Co-existing being that but and I use that in a pejorative way. But people are saying that that this just doesn't matter. This is just what we all have little holes in our doctrine. At some point we have to say this far and no farther.

So I would I would say would jump fine are they singing God is my girlfriend songs or is it just bad Sean Cassidy? I don't know. Are they are they giving anything of real merit that can help a ten-year-old kid, you know versus early Jackson's music singing ABC, you know.

It's a completely separate issue that is in the contemporary fog of a postmodern culture and music Steve Steve.

Do you realize you just said Sean Cassidy?

Yeah, I know I'd listen to. I own Sean Cassidy. I know what that's all about. I have an album by the way, give me for that I will repent publicly here now that here's the thing Frank that I think is so important that I think I think it's vitally important that three entities today Christian booksellers Association the Gospel Music Association and the National Religious Broadcasters Must talking about a trinity of efforts must come to a place of saying unless The teaching the television show the music the book the tapes all of it It least meets a basic standard test of orthodoxy on the essentials.

We will not support it. We will remove it from our stores. That that to me is an important thing today and how we get there through the scrutinizing efforts Of men like James White of R .C. Sproul of dr. MacArthur of others that.

That through the efforts of very faithful men godly men in local churches that can say these are banners that we uphold Without equivocation as people as our in books that I've worked with if I did not have control burden for them Because this is an eternal issue.

You know Satan has blinded their minds with an essential of faith that has reinvented the character of a holy God. As God himself has defined himself in his self-revelation, which is what scripture is that you know Steve out of a heart of love.

We must go to them and plead with them to stop and I would encourage churches and concert goers and bookstores To cease and desist on attending their concerts carrying the material and supporting their work until they can prove orthodoxy.

And by the way, I'm sorry to be long on this but the truth is so clear. This discussion could be over literally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. By a phone call a conference call with James White and myself and several others.

By them a firm early 19 creed and we're done. It's a nice well. Well, I've seen creed and Trinitarian views of scripture. Pardon me how scripture represents God himself as being not three persons in the Godhead.

That here we have it we have an opportunity to bring absolute clarity to this. My only question is why the silence? Yeah, that's orthodox. Why not the debate if they are orthodox? Why not state it clearly and succinctly and be done with the controversy?

Yeah, and when someone runs from this. It's similar to what James mentioned with Michael Moore and Bill O 'Reilly. The truth is so plain the war has to take a trip around the Fahrenheit barn several times to make his point.

Well, you know. We need to take a quick break. I also just wanted to say to me the the greatest Tragedy here is that these individuals now, maybe not the so much the singers though. What my understanding is Randy Phillips himself has been involved with this, but these individuals are interacting with evangelical pastors.

And I'm not getting a really strong sense that those evangelical pastors. That's right. Have a knowledge of the doctrine of the Trinity and the biblical Foundations of the Trinity in the history of the doctrine to be able to actually press the issue and ask the right questions.

That's 100 right. Most of our statements of faith are not written with enough explicit language to necessarily Detect that and so when I see major groups going, oh they believe in the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

I just want to to scream because so do the Jehovah's Witnesses. So are the Mormons, you know, so do the Muslims for that matter in their own way. You have to know what those things mean and they're not allowing those things to take place in that way.

Frank. We need to take a break. Can I ask one more? We will hold you we will hold you over and then we need to talk about justification as well because another caller there. We'll be right back right after this.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being Reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Were the signers of ECT? Correct in their ecumenical efforts and all the reformed scholars who opposed them in error. Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the New Covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Join us as one of the most important issues to confront evangelicalism is debated. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at pr BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation. Theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified.

But about the very meaning of justification in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Once a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself.

Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue. Justification the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture our pillar and foundation of truth David King.

The president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference Tom Askew. New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson. The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and the president of grace to you Philip Johnson.

Nationally renowned reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega Ministries celebrated author. Dr. James White. Join us in Los Angeles, California at the LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m.

Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at www .aomin .org. That's a o m. I n dot o RG. Don't miss this historic event. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

And welcome back to dividing line. That is our guest man your your connection got really good there for a while Steve. That's that's the best I've ever heard you on the phone before. Sorry about that.

Yes, of course Steve camps joined us. Frank's on the phone. We have another caller afterwards who wants to talk about justification and you need to get to that. So Frank your your last question for Steve.

Okay, it's a softball.

Let's let's imagine for a minute Steve that that CBA and and eCPA Come up with this standard that you that you have, you know some sort of review board or something. How do you imagine? Something like that would deal with and this is I think this is the most current example I could come up with the release of the passion DVD.

How how would how do you think that that should be dealt with? Well, thank you for that. I appreciate the kind of Here's here's what I think it is I can say through those organizations that the passion movie made by Mel Gibson.

Though it is its focus. It is Marian Mel himself in a Christianity Today article a few months ago stated that he was shocked that so many evangelical Christians supported the passion. Because he believes Mary's co-redemptor ik's co-mediatrix with Christ and was nervous at the support of the evangelical Community, obviously it made him just an easy four hundred million dollars for his efforts.

We're still paying John Tetzel. In other words Here I think that what they could do is to say listen. Take your people to see the passion. If they wanted to support it that way and be prepared to give a clear witness of the gospel.

Be prepared to know we're in the movie. Are those deviations from the scriptures and where Mel brings it and other mentions of the stations of the cross and Romanism? Sure would so that people with gentleness and with reverence and graciousness with love but with boldness can give a defense of the faith carry this and Represented again as orthodoxy is troublesome.

Yes, I agree. And and this is where I think Frank that that we we need to say in kindness and again How can I say this? Mr. Gibson vacate is to his tridentine steady vacanistic view of our Lord. Then many evangelical Christians are to the biblical view.

Amen, and this is what happens is when we see We are so thirsty I think in the church these days for celebrity we are so thirsty to be legitimized in secular in pop culture. That we will hold on to anyone that says Jesus in any way shape or form so that we somehow can came gain access to mainstream media and Somehow be made relevant or legitimized in our propagation of the gospel.