July 29, 2004

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The world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is
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The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the
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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
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James White. You've probably heard their music, you've certainly heard on contemporary
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Christian radio. I refer of course to Phillips, Craig, and Dean, P, C, and D.
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This is a song that you probably, if you're in almost any evangelical church at all, have heard sung in your services.
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And in fact, since it's based primarily upon Galatians Chapter 2, it makes sense that you might have heard.
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It's called Crucified with Christ, one of the songs that hit a pretty high point in the charts for Phillips, Craig, and Dean.
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And today we're going to be talking about that and a number of other things, the controversy surrounding the issue of theology and music.
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Yes, a topic that we've talked about before, but it's back with a vengeance in the news, and it certainly is back for us because of the fact that Phillips, Craig, and Dean are going out on tour once again, and they are singing in churches that confess the doctrine of the
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Trinity, and the issue is, what about Phillips, Craig, and Dean, and the doctrine of the Trinity, and the whole issue of the
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Trinity, and the Gospel, and Christian music, and what is worship, and who else to have on when talking about such things as that, but someone who can address that subject from a position of expertise, and that, of course, is our good friend,
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Steve Camp. Hi, Campy, how you doing? Hey, James, pleasure to be with you tonight, and a great privilege to have a break from the
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Democratic National Convention. Thank you for this. Well, you know, some of us just have enough self -control that the only thing we've actually watched was
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O 'Reilly going after Michael Moore, so that is all, honestly, I have seen of the entire thing.
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I just can't handle it. My blood pressure, I just had it checked just a few minutes ago, in fact, doctor's office 119 over 81, and that's because I have not been watching any television.
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Yeah, well, that was a good segment with O 'Reilly. I appreciate Bill on that, but hey, you know,
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God sits in the heavens and laughs at the plans of kings and princes, so we know it's the Lord's views of the convention, but it's an honor to be with you here, and especially talking about this great theme of the doctrine of the
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Trinity and the importance of it today, and especially, you know, what role do the arts play in contemporary culture, and especially within the church in communicating great theology, because as you know, songwriters like Isaac Watts, great theologians like Martin Luther, and others would take the great theological truth, put them in songs so that the common folk of the day could be well -equipped with a high view of God and the essentials of the faith.
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Contemporary Christian music that I've been in now for 26 years, for the most part, are not songs that are theologically precise nor doctrinally consistent, and I've been guilty of writing those in past years, and you have to be teachable when men like Dr.
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James White Call or different pastors and people that the Lord has equipped in the languages to say, brother, here's a better way of saying that, and staying orthodox, and so we realize there can be minor differentiations in our songs and our lyrics, but today what's so unique,
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James, on this whole issue is that essentials of the faith, the gospel of justification by faith alone, or now the doctrine of the
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Trinity, are being passed off as seemingly trivial things, or don't we all have holes in our theology?
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Don't we all have little segments of our faith that aren't intact? What's the big deal?
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And boy, I tell you, when Satan attacks the word of God, the character of God in the gospel, this is a very big deal, and so I am delighted to be speaking on this issue with you this evening.
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Well, now, you got in touch with me just a few days ago because of the discussion going on amongst broadcasters and people like that,
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Christian artists, concerning the subject of Phillips, Craig, and Dean, they've released another
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CD, and they are going back out on tour, and obviously what we keep hearing is, and let me give background to those who may be listening who are not familiar with this, a number of years ago
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I was sitting in a hotel room in Chicago, speaking at a cult conference with people like Norman Geisler and a few other folks, and I was writing an article for the
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CRI Journal called Loving the Trinity. It was to piggyback on the release of my book with Bethany House called
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The Forgotten Trinity, and I was listening to the very CD, the exact CD that I was just playing as we started the program,
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Phillips, Craig, and Dean, Favorite Songs of All, and I'm thumbing through some material that was sent to me by CRI, and lo and behold,
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I run across a Charisma magazine article talking about the inroads that oneness believers are making into the evangelical music area, and here
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I run across this mention, the fact that Phillips, Craig, and Dean are from a oneness background, that these individuals, in fact, the way that Charisma put it was that they were oneness ministers, and so I popped this thing out of my computer, and I sat there looking at the
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CD and the drive and looking at the screen, and the screen is called Loving the Trinity, and here
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I'm listening to music by individuals who not only would not love the Trinity as I love the
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Trinity, but in fact, having engaged many oneness people in the past, would find the doctrine of the
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Trinity to be the mark of Babylon mystery religion and things like that. Now, I started doing some research.
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I wasn't just going to trust Charisma magazine, and so I started pulling up websites and looking at stuff, and lo and behold, each of the churches that these individuals, the three men of Phillips, Craig, and Dean, that they go to,
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I was able to quickly and easily discern were oneness churches.
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They were not members of the United Pentecostal Church International, which, if you really want my opinion, is what
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Phillips, Craig, and Dean are telling people. We are not a part of that movement. Well, they're not. I think they broke off in the
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UPCI back in about 1993 or so, when they had the big holiness code breakup.
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Basically, what happened was the UPCI is a very strict, very legalistically oriented denomination.
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The old time oneness Pentecostals going all the way back to the split with the Assemblies of God, a very, very strict organization, and they sent out a letter basically saying that if you're going to be involved in ministry at UPCI, you need to sign this letter talking about these things you won't do and so on and so forth.
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There were a bunch of churches that said, we're not going to do it. They broke off, and interestingly enough, a number of these churches, for example, the guy that I debated in 1999,
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Robert Sabin, who was the individual who debated Walter Martin on the
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John Ankerberg show, Walter Martin and E. Calvin Beisner, many years ago.
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He has left the UPCI, even though he was there with Nathaniel Irshon, and he now holds to Sola Fide, but still does not believe in the doctrine of the
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Trinity. Well, if you look at these churches that are represented here, that's the kind of churches you're looking at.
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They're very seeker -friendly. They have really focused upon music in worship and things like that, and they're very large and very open in that way.
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When I wrote my article, I gave the websites, I gave the references and said, these individuals are coming from a
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Oneness background. Well, boy, talk about something hitting the fan. We used to start getting hit with stuff, right and left and up and down.
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Make a long story short, I obtained an email from Randy Phillips writing in behalf of Phillips Craig and Dean.
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It came from the actual email address of Phillips Craig and Dean, and the statements that were made were specifically
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Oneness statements, and that is, we believe in one God who is eternal in his existence, triune in his manifestation, being both
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Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that he is sovereign and absolute in his authority.
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Now, sadly, I think one of the problems we're facing, Stephen, these days is that there's just not many people left who have studied the
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Trinity to the depth to be able to go, excuse me, but that's an ancient heresy known as modalism, but that seems to be what's going on.
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I recognize that. I got in contact with Phillips Craig and Dean. I talked with Mr. Dean, not by voice, but by letter a couple of times, and so I did follow up on it, and then it just sort of died down, and then every, about 18 months or so, maybe it's going with CD releases,
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I don't know, but every little bit, boom, here it comes again, and you contacted me because basically, as we were talking earlier today, some folks have basically come out and said, hey, they're fine.
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Their theology is fine, and therefore, they're getting to perform in, well, in the same churches that you'd perform in.
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Isn't that the case? Well, that's correct. In fact, and again, I think with the outset, we have to preface this by saying this is not meant to be a personal attack on these men, and no one is out on some sort of witch hunt here.
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We're trying to fulfill Titus 1 -9, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict, and to do that, as your broadcast begins at the beginning of each segment here, the dividing line with grace and with reverence, gentleness and meekness.
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So here, yeah, this has come up on forum board discussions that I am privileged to participate on with several hundred broadcasters around the country.
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It's also come up in discussions I've had with other artists. It's recently been brought up again in emails that I get several hundred a week, and a good portion of those lately have been on this theme.
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Part of the problem, James, is what you'd said. You know, I think when you hear something taught from the pulpit, it's didactic.
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You can analyze it, you can quantify it, you get the tape, you can listen to it, you take it to the scriptures, you examine it.
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The problem today is that when we are under command of scripture,
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Psalm 119 .54 says, Thy statutes are my songs, in the house of my pilgrimage, the word of God is also the theme of our song.
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We are to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.
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The problem today is there is no qualifier. There is no, even at the local church level,
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I know very few artists that are accountable to the local church, or very few, sadly to say, pastor elder boards, that will require the artists of those churches to submit their lyrics to them ahead of time, so they can examine them for biblical accuracy, so that that local church and those artists, and I would think, and the labels and publishers, would have confidence in knowing that what they are singing about and representing is absolutely consistent with scripture.
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What happens today is because of great opportunities through the internet and Christian radio and other things, as long as something is popular, it doesn't need to necessarily be true.
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When you put bad theology in a song, it's like blowing the top off of Mount St.
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Helens, and the dust and the ash that gets into the jet stream, there's containment at that level is absolutely impossible.
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Rather than simply a spoken word or a teaching, people will take music in a different way, they adopt it in a different way, and because of that, it is something that will live with them and be repeated, even as you played in songs of worship that PC and D have done, that it is something that now those songs are introduced in worship, because people may not know the context of those songs.
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This is the same thing that Arius did in the early centuries of the unfolding of the early church, was he would take his heresy, now known historically as Arianism, where he would say that Christ was divine but yet created, and he denied his eternality, and therefore his deity.
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But Arius, counteracting the crusty complaints of Athanasius, would put these heresies in songs, travel from village to village and let the townspeople sing them, and he won the hearts of the people.
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Obviously, the truth of God will always prevail, as Athanasius did in the discussions and the arguments and the debates.
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Today, we have a similar thing, James, where now the battle is not from without, it's from within, and I want to say, and I know this is your heart as well,
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I've tried to reach Phillips Craig and Dean, and I've tried emailing them with the tone of this, that if they've been severely misrepresented, and that they do affirm the orthodoxy of the
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Trinity, and if everything that they have printed on the websites and their own churches represent is absolutely false, then
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I want to be the first one to not only ask for their forgiveness for whatever misunderstanding
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I've had of this issue with them, but also to help rectify that and to clear up their reputation.
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If, on the other hand, all of the material that we have read, and their silence on this issue and so forth, involving even their own local churches and their statements that they've made in the past on the
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Trinity, on anti -Trinitarian doctrine, is true, then
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I would love to sit with them, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, but share with them the blessed
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Gospel of Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible. Because what anti -Trinitarian doctrine does, it re -events the
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God of the Scriptures, and therefore robs God fully of His glory, why? Because it's a different God than who
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God Himself has said He is. Well, it's right there that we run into the problem, though, of course, because so many...
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I would say even some of those that are listening to us right now would say, well, now wait a minute,
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Steve. What you're saying, if you take it to its logical conclusion, would basically require me to stop listening to almost anything that's done today, simply because if you start putting together a list of people who are really concerned about the theology expressed in their music, it's going to be a very, very short list.
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And not only that, but I'm just going to throw these out here and let you handle them, because I'm sure you've heard them before, but not only that, but if you look down at the bottom of the page in your hymnal, even like the
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Trinity hymnal, which we use at our church, and you start looking around some of the names and stuff like that, and start doing some digging, well, for example, we have a
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Presbyterian pastor in channel, and he has to keep telling you which one of these it is. I think it's Faith of Our Fathers, if I recall correctly.
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He says, look, this is coming from the Roman Catholic background, or people saying the Battle Hymn of the Republic, written by a
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Unitarian, you know, stuff like that. Is there a difference?
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I guess what I'm going to ask is this. A, how do you deal with the fact that there's just a lot of lousy theology out there in music, and B, is there a difference between inviting
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Phillips, Craig, and Dean into the worship center of a Trinitarian church, without knowing whether they actually believe in the
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Doctrine of the Trinity or not, and singing a song that, in your context, you understand it to mean
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X, but the author living 10 years ago or 1 ,000 years ago meant
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Y? Yeah, very good question. Let me answer it by this. On the first issue, it is true that even in the hymnology that we see hymns written that are not scriptural, or written from the well of Unitarianism and other things, and I think it would do well for those publishers to go back through and to, again, constantly be editing those hymnals.
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I think that that's fair. None of us have arrived in the totality of our theology. I know I have blind spots.
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As Dr. MacArthur likes to say, he just doesn't know where they are. I don't know where mine are either, until others come alongside and point them out.
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We are to stay teachable if we're truly knowing the Lord, and as we're growing daily in the grace and knowledge of our
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Lord Jesus Christ, we have to be teachable on those things. So we understand we give grace on this. We give that there's a progression of that, and that if this was done in ignorance, if they didn't really realize this, then now that they have knowledge of those things, like when you have a bad muffler or a broken part in Ford or Chevy has to do an entire recall between certain years to make sure that that part is fixed for safety standards and so forth, so that the product maintains a level of excellence.
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I think in the same way that the publishers should recall some hymnals. The record companies should recall some records and be willing to go to the expense needed to correct the message to make it orthodox or to pull the song entirely, number one.
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Number two, I do think there is a difference, James, between that and what we're seeing today because singing a song, it may not even resonate.
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So much of what we do Sunday is mechanical, and people just kind of go through the motions and sing these things.
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But however, when you are standing face to face with one that you have bought their
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CD, there's admiration involved, there are songs that maybe minister to your heart or encourage you in some way, there's a bit of a bonding that takes place in that environment different than pedantically through a hymnal.
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What we have here is then the power of influence and persuasion is absolutely profound by the person that is standing on that platform and able to influence people to a greater cause and so forth.
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This is very, very concerning today because I'm under the firm belief that Jerry Springer doesn't do as much harm for the cause of Christ as bad theology does.
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Because when you have bad theology and represent a false view of who God is, that has eternal consequences.
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Frankly, I would much rather have people sing a Bruce Springsteen song than a song of bad theology, because at least
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Bruce isn't going to confuse them spiritually on these issues. When you have a group like Phillips, Craig, and Dean, or an author or speaker like T .D.
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Jakes, who represent themselves as true believers in Jesus Christ, they are singing in churches that have affiliation with the great evangelical leadership today, and therefore they are being touted as being orthodox and honoring the same view of the essentials of the faith that those churches are.
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Okay, so aside from the confusion that would come from that, here's the next question. We've already got one caller
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I want to get to, and there's other things we want to talk about and so on and so forth, but let me throw this out here.
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Here's the question that a lot of people are having. Like the song that I was playing before is basically
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Galatians 2 .20, with a little commentary added, but you would really have a hard time digging through Phillips, Craig, and Dean's music and finding in the actual lyrics anything that would communicate to you, if you didn't know better, that these individuals are not talking about the same
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God we're talking about. They're talking about a Unitarian situation. They're coming from a
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Unitarian situation. They don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, but the music doesn't communicate that.
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I was sitting there listening to it, and I had not heard anybody saying anything. Now I had noticed,
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I'll be honest, I had noticed that I didn't hear anything positive along those lines, but then again, how many modern
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Christian artists do you get anything really positive about the doctrine of the Trinity on?
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In fact, let's face it, there are some pretty well -known guys, some of their songs are absolutely modalistic in their statements, but they don't even know it.
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They're so ignorant of the doctrine, they're not even aware that what they're saying in their lyrics is actually unorthodox.
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Well, and again, you bring up a good point, and briefly, all I can say is this. Though at face value, like this song you were playing at the beginning of the show here today, does not represent, in specific,
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Sabellianism or Modalism, an anti -Trinitarian view, but yet still we know that's the fountain, based on all current evidence, that that song springs from.
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So we know that the Jesus, even though he's quoting Paul, we know that the Jesus that they are singing about, from their point of view, is a different Jesus than the
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Jesus of the Bible. In fact, he's two persons, he's the Father and the Son in that theology. Yeah, that's right.
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And that's something that has, again, profound questions. Okay, now let me throw this out, because this is what people say to me, they say, now look,
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James, but think about this. What if I don't know that? What if I have no idea, or let's even make it more complicated for you here, before I bring our first caller on.
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What if they are singing a song written by a
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Trinitarian? You see, in these situations, people are saying, well, but can't I worship in that context?
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And what if I don't know? Can I use the song we were playing at the beginning of the program, which sounds so beautiful to me, can
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I use that in the worship in my church, if I don't know? I mean, let's say there's someone with a real sensitive spirit listening right now, and they've always loved that song.
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In fact, they've performed it in their own church, completely and totally without any knowledge of what the background was.
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Now doesn't that introduce something to us there that, you know, doesn't that change?
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How do you handle a situation like that? Well, again, I think if someone is acting naively and in complete ignorance due to the context of those things, you have to give grace to the listener and to those that have maybe introduced it in ignorance.
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And at the same time, though, when there are programs like this and others that can give light to this, and a lot of people know, a lot of the bookstores that are out there, radio stations,
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I won't name churches, but that are having these guys in, know the problems of their beliefs.
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But yet, because they are a draw, listen, let's be painfully honest here.
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If Phillips, Craig, and Dean sold 10 ,000 units and were only pulling 50 people a night, churches would say, oh, listen, we hear they're anti -trinitarian, we've done some initial research.
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Yeah, let's have it. But when they can bring in 4 ,000 people to their Sunday evening concert series or to a
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Saturday night event, if they are popular constantly within the top ten of certain radio formats, if they're selling
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XYZ number of albums through the bookstore chains, then you have something, James, that is the greatest stumbling block to the
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New Testament church as realized in the 21st century, and that is money. Because every time commerce and faith intersects on these issues, commerce seems to always win.
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And believe me, that is the bottom line thing here. Bookstore owners, radio stations, concert promoters, and churches that are selling tickets for these concerts will not take a stand because it means a loss of tremendous revenue.
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Ah, well, speaking of bookstore owners, let's go ahead and take our first call really quick.
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I usually put my foot in it. Did I just do that again? Actually, he doesn't need to identify himself, but I happen to know that our first caller is an owner of a
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Christian bookstore. And so let's just talk to the anonymous bookstore owner so he doesn't get in trouble.
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The one time in my life you allow me to be anonymous, Dr. O. That's brutal.
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It's Frank in Arkansas. Thank you for all you people. It's all right. I don't have to be anonymous. I have other people in the bookstore listening to us right now.
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I just wanted to make you feel, you know, comfortable. I appreciate that. Listen, Steve, you know,
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I... Hi, Frank. How are you? I'm well. And it is an honor and a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.
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I make fun of Dr. O's fanhood of you, but, you know, you really are somebody who is holding up the light to the industry, and I appreciate that.
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Well, thank you. You know, I take a lot of friendly ribbing for being a bookstore owner because CBA as an organization is not a great place where theological watersheds happen.
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You know, we tend to sell what's hot and don't think about what it's really full of out there.
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But it wasn't last month, but two months ago in the CBA magazine, Richard Abanas made a great point that the retailer is responsible for what's on his shelf.
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You know, and for me, the question, and Abanas never really answered it, or if he did, they didn't get it in the articles, where do you draw the line?
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You know, for me, it's real easy to say, okay, no Benny Hinn, no Paul Crouch, no T .D. Jakes. You know, you page through Relevant Magazine, and you realize, well, that shouldn't be on my rack.
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It's real easy to figure out. But, you know, when we get to, let me just, I'll give you a musical example and a non -musical example.
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Jump Five. Okay? Yeah. You know, where's the offense to the gospel? I don't know if there's an offense to the gospel, but where's the gospel at the same time?
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You know, that's a tricky one for me because, you know, if it's competing with secular music for kids, maybe that's better than not.
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And on the non -music side, you know, C .S. Lewis, you know, historically recognized by, you know, a large ecumenical group of people, whether you agree in that ecumenical group's ideology or not, as somebody who has influenced 20th century
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Christianity in a big way. Now, how do you, where do you draw the line on that gray area? Because, you know, ultimately,
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I agree with the point about Phillips, Craig, and Dean. It hurts me. It pains me because before I knew about the theology,
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I thought these were guys out there singing it for Jesus, you know? But, you know, the Jesus they're singing about is not the Jesus I know.
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Yeah, that's right. Well, very simply, and I appreciate the comment here, Frank, and I do appreciate the scrutiny that you're showing there with some of the authors that you met.
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That's a tremendous step in the right direction. I would say it goes back to our age -old qualifier in the essentials unity and the non -essentials liberty and in all things charity.
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In the essentials of the faith, there has to be absolute clarity and unity on the gospel, the doctrine of the
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Trinity, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the authority and veracity of Scripture, on and on we could go.
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Those key essential things, from the apostles right through the early church fathers to current day, there has never been a time in historical, orthodox, biblical
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Christianity where someone could affirm an anti -Trinitarian position and be considered orthodox.
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They were never even considered part of legitimate Christianity. And I think that's the thing.
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We're not talking, if I can, we're not talking speaking in tongues or not speaking in tongues.
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We're not talking length of hair here or style of music or order of worship, whether someone has to wear a tie or not, whether it's better to drive a
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Mazda or ride a Harley. These are frivolous things in most circles.
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But yet on the essentials of the faith, this is the key issue. Today, even the core beliefs, the doctrine of justification by faith is being attacked by the new perspective of Paul.
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We have the character of God and His sovereignty and omniscience being attacked by open theism.
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Now we have Christian artists admittedly, at least in the past, and pastoring and being ordained and serving in oneness churches, denying the doctrine of the
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Trinity, denying Father, Son, and Holy Spirit co -equal, co -eternal, co -existing.
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And we're saying that, and I use that in a pejorative way, but people are saying that this just doesn't matter.
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This is just, well, we all have little holes in our doctrine. At some point we have to say this far and no farther.
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So I would say with Jump Five, are they singing God is my girlfriend songs or is it just bad
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Sean Cassidy? I don't know. Are they giving anything of real merit that can help a 10 -year -old kid, you know, versus early
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Jackson's music singing ABC, you know? Sean Cassidy. That is a completely separate issue that is in the contemporary fog of a postmodern culture of music.
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Steve, Steve, do you realize you just said Sean Cassidy? Yeah, I know. Listen, but I own
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Sean Cassidy. I know what that's all about. And I had an album by Sean years ago. Yeah, please forgive me for that.
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I will repent publicly here now. But here's the thing, Frank, that I think is so important, that I think it's vitally important that three entities today,
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Christian Booksellers Association, the Gospel Music Association, and the
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National Religious Broadcasters must, talking about a trinity of efforts there, must come to a place of saying, unless the teaching, the television show, the music, the book, the tapes, all of it at least meets a basic standard test of orthodoxy on the essentials, we will not support it.
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We will remove it from our stores. That to me is an important thing today, and how we get there through the scrutinizing efforts of men like James White, of R .C.
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Sproul, of Dr. MacArthur, of others, that through the efforts of very faithful men, godly men in local churches, that can say these are banners that we uphold without equivocation, and they are hills worth dying on.
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Again, Phillips, Craig, and Dena really, as people, are incidental to this. However, as folks that I've worked with in the past at a
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GMA function that I did not have control over, I am deeply burdened for them, because this is an eternal issue.
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Satan has blinded their minds with an essential of faith that has reinvented the character of a holy
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God, as God himself has defined himself in his self -revelation, which is what
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Scripture is. Out of a heart of love, we must go to them and plead with them to stop.
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And I would encourage churches and concert goers and bookstores to cease and desist on attending their concerts, carrying the material, and supporting their work until they can prove orthodoxy.
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And by the way, and I'm sorry to be long on this, but the truth is so clear, this discussion could be over literally in 30 minutes.
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Oh, less than that. Oh yeah. Yeah, by a phone call, a conference call with James White and myself and several others, by them affirming the 19th
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Creed, and we're done. Well, the 19th Creed and Trinitarian views of Scripture, pardon me, how
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Scripture represents God himself as being not tri -gods, as it were, but three persons in the
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Godhead, that here we have an opportunity to bring absolute clarity to this in a very short period of time.
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My only question is, if they are orthodox, why the silence? If they are orthodox, why not the debate?
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If they are orthodox, why not state it clearly and succinctly and be done with the controversy?
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And when someone runs from this, it's similar to what James mentioned with Michael Moore and Bill O 'Reilly, the truth is so plain that Moore has to take a trip around the
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Fahrenheit barn several times to make his point. Hold on a second there, Steve. We need to take a quick break.
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I also just wanted to say, to me, the greatest tragedy here is that these individuals, now maybe not so much the singers, though my understanding is
35:30
Randy Phillips himself has been involved with this, but these individuals are interacting with evangelical pastors, and I'm not getting a really strong sense that those evangelical pastors have a knowledge of the doctrine of the
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Trinity and the biblical foundations of the Trinity and the history of the doctrine to be able to actually press the issue and ask the right questions.
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That's 100 % right. Most of our statements of faith are not written with enough explicit language to necessarily detect that, and so when
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I see major groups going, oh, they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I just want to scream because so do the
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Jehovah's Witnesses, so do the Mormons, so do the Muslims, for that matter, in their own way.
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You have to know what those things mean, and they're not allowing those things to take place in that way. Frank, we need to take a break.
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Can I ask one more after the break? We will hold you over, and then we need to talk about justification as well, because another caller there.
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We'll be right back right after this. Such a rarity today, Mr. Strong and True.
36:42
Convictions once held and died for among Bible -believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent
36:48
Auburn Avenue Movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?
36:54
Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts, and all the Reformed scholars who opposed them in error?
37:00
Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the New Covenant? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?
37:07
Join us in Los Angeles, California, on November 5, 2004, for a full three hours of moderated debate between Dr.
37:13
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue Movement and New St.
37:19
Andrews College, as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.
37:25
Join us as one of the most important issues to confront evangelicalism is debated. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the
37:34
Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.
37:42
The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the
37:49
Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning
37:54
Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45. Evening services are at 6 .30
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p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805
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North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.
38:17
If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org,
38:24
where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
38:30
At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself.
38:37
It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
38:47
Once a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers, the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of Reformed evangelicalism itself.
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Join Alpha and Omega Ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue.
39:04
Justification, the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co -author of Holy Scripture, Our Pillar and Foundation of Truth, David King.
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The president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference, Tom Askell. New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of Evangelical Answers, Eric Svensson.
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The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and the president of Grace to You, Philip Johnson. Nationally renowned
39:30
Reformed Christian artist, Steve Camp. And the founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries, celebrated author,
39:36
Dr. James White. Join us in Los Angeles, California at the LAX Sheraton Ballroom on November 6th, 2004, beginning at 845 a .m.
39:45
Seating is limited, so order your tickets now at www .aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N dot
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O -R -G. Don't miss this historic event. That is our guest.
40:26
Man, your connection got really good there for a while, Steve. That's the best I've ever heard you on the phone before.
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Sorry about that. Yes, of course, Steve Camp's joined us. Frank's on the phone.
40:40
We have another caller afterwards who wants to talk about justification, and we need to get to that. So, Frank, your last question for Steve.
40:48
Okay, it's a softball. Let's imagine for a minute, Steve, that CBA and ECPA come up with this standard that you have, some sort of review board or something.
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How do you imagine something like that would deal with, and I think this is the most current example
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I could come up with, the release of the Passion DVD? How do you think that that should be dealt with?
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Well, that is a softball. Thank you for that. I appreciate the kindness you've shown to me. Here's what
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I think it is. I mean, any clear review, and we have them at audienceone .org
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on the Passion movie and so forth. I think what you can say through those organizations is that the
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Passion movie made by Mel Gibson, though it is Roman, Catholic in its focus, it is
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Marian in its ultimate praise and glory for what has happened.
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Mel himself, in a Christianity Today article a few months ago, stated that he was shocked that so many evangelical
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Christians supported the Passion because he believes Mary is co -redemptrix, co -mediatrix with Christ, and was nervous at the support of the evangelical community.
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Obviously, it made him just an easy $400 million for his efforts. We're still paying
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John Tetzel, in other words. But here, I think that what they could do is to say, listen, take your people to see the
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Passion. If they wanted to support it that way and be prepared to give a clear witness of the
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Gospel, be prepared to know where in the movie are those deviations from the
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Scriptures and where Mel brings in, like St. Veronica and other mentions of the stations of the cross and Romanism, where he is affirming
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Mary above what Scripture would. So that people with gentleness and with reverence and graciousness, with love but with boldness can give a defense of the faith.
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For bookstores to carry this and represent it again as orthodoxy is troublesome.
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Yes, I agree. And this is where I think, Frank, that we need to say in kindness, and again, how can
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I say this? Mr. Gibson is more dedicated to his tridentine, steady, vacantistic view of the
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Passion of our Lord than many evangelical Christians are to the biblical view.
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Amen. And this is what happens is when we see... We are so thirsty,
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I think, in the church these days for celebrity. We are so thirsty to be legitimized in secular, in pop culture, that we will hold on to anyone that says
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Jesus in any way, shape, or form so that we somehow can gain access to mainstream media and somehow be made relevant or legitimized in our propagation of the
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Gospel. Mr. Gibson has done that for many evangelical leaders. I was shocked at some of the dear men of God who have written on some of the great themes of faith for so many years that were bending theologically over backwards just to gain five minutes of air time with Mr.
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Gibson. This was a very difficult thing to see because the
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Reformation did matter. Yes. Amen. And this is something that we have to ask today is, why is it that people are more committed to peace than to truth?
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Today, on this issue of the Trinity with Phillips Craig and Dean, one of the things that was sent to me recently in an email said that they did not want to speak out on this issue anymore because they have family that are heavily involved in leadership of these
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Oneness churches. But yet Scripture says, Our Lord came to bring a sword to separate mother -in -law from sister -in -law, from father -in -law from son -in -law.
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In other words, when we place any love greater than our love for the Lord and allow that love, sentimental or otherwise, prohibit us from being dedicated to truth, it's an issue.
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So here's what I would recommend. Very succinctly, what I would recommend is that there needs to be a cohesive statement that is drafted.
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And I have a name for this, Christians and Media for Biblical Integrity, CMBI. And wouldn't it be great if on the essentials of the faith, if Dr.
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White, if R .C. Sproul, if Ligon Duncan, if D .A. Carson, if Sinclair Ferguson, I mean, let's go right on down the line, men from different backgrounds, different theological persuasions, but yet absolutely dedicated to the veracity of Scripture, a high view of God, the character of God and who
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Christ is, and His Gospel, wouldn't it be great if on the essentials of the faith there could simply be a listing of those essentials, what they mean, what they affirm, and what they do not affirm, so that it's not just same vocabulary, but different dictionary, like we're seeing in the marketplace today.
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But that we actually know in intertolianistic, pardon me, in interretenistic ways of what we affirm and what we do not affirm when we say certain things.
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That then, when anyone on a book, a teaching tape, a radio program, just like they do with the
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ECFA for financial accountability, wouldn't it be great if that stamp could be placed on CDs and books and other things, so that people know when they buy that, hey,
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I have the confidence in knowing that this is orthodox, that this is true, and that these people collectively affirm this.
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May I say it tongue -in -cheek, regardless of the individual local church they attend, because this is not a denominational issue, this is a biblical issue, and that is something
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I would think the CBA and others would want to affirm, because ultimately, Frank and James, we will all stand before the
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Lord as one who will have to give an account. And when we lose the right view of a fear of God, then we can act in these kind of frivolous and capricious ways without fear of judgment, and we do as the psalmist says in Psalm 50 .21,
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where our Lord says of wayward Israel, you thought I was just like you. And we have recreated
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God in our own imaginations, in our own envies and thoughts, in our own image, rather than honor
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Him for the God of the Bible, who He says He is. Wouldn't that be exciting, to see that kind of stamp be placed for biblical integrity?
47:25
So whether it's C .J. Mahaney, whether it's James White or myself or others, whether it's in song or in word, that there would be a plumb line, so that people would know this is true, and I can trust it again, because sadly in our culture today, our faith is being whittled away, and now by those professing to be current brothers with us, and this is the tragedy of the hour.
47:47
Well, thank you very much, Steve, for that, and thank you, Frank, for your phone call. I hope that helped in your thinking on those things.
47:53
Hey, Steve, the time is just absolutely flying by us here. Oh, my. I'm thinking someone that you and I both know, possibly.
48:03
I'll have to have the powers that be confirm this for me. Our next phone call may be someone that we know.
48:10
Okay, someone who we need to let on, because he's bigger than either you or I, and that is Sam from Chicago.
48:18
So before we let Sam rip up the airwaves here, his question is on justification, so I wanted to very quickly, even though we've barely scratched the surface, the commercials that we played are talking about the fact that you and I are going to be getting together again in early
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November in Los Angeles, and then on the Pacific Ocean as well, and talking about justification.
48:41
I'm doing a debate, and thankfully we have you singing and me debating, and I'm not going to be singing, but you could probably do the debating, too, so that's not really fair.
48:53
But anyway, we're going to be talking about the doctor of justification. You mentioned that just a few moments ago, and of course anyone who's been following my blog knows that we're addressing this issue.
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We're addressing the issue of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, the nature of what the righteousness of Christ is.
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I'm just about to put a new blog article up about the unified righteousness of Christ, and all these things that I can guarantee you, as I've talked with various people, with David King and others, ten years ago it never crossed my mind that this is what we would be facing at this point in time, especially from within the camp.
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This is not an ignorance issue. This is somewhat different in the sense that this isn't ignorance of the doctrine of the
49:35
Trinity leading to a who -cares attitude. These are very well -trained people that are saying basically we missed it from the very start, and hence it takes on a whole other character to it at all.
49:53
Yeah. And so that's what we're going to be talking about. You're going to be with us on the cruise, and singing and ministering, and so with that as a quick background, let's go ahead and let
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Sam join us. Sam, how are you? I am doing great. This is your Middle Eastern stud brother right here.
50:10
Hey, Sam, how are you, brother? Steve, I love you, but I want you to know something. Norm is still the man.
50:15
He really is. That's my older brother, by the way, that he's referring to. I thought he was talking about Norm Geisler.
50:21
I'm like, what? No, no. He's a missionary. Tremendous work. May the Lord bless him. Oh, great.
50:26
You always take a back seat to Norm, Steve. I just want you to know that. I don't mind that any day of the week.
50:32
Praise God. Well, time is fleeting. I want to ask a question regarding the debate that you had,
50:39
Dr. White, with Roberts and Jenner. I remember it. Yeah, I got to see it on DVD, even though originally
50:45
I heard it on audio cassette tape, and after seeing you, I wish I'd stayed with the audio cassettes. Oh, man.
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That's just a personal pet peeve. Sam, I think Steve and I could together probably take you and send you into the deep.
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Well, I know at the buffet line you guys can take me pretty well. No, but it has to do with St.
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Genesis' interpretation of the blessed man and how he tried to say that in the context of Psalm 32, it refers to David.
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Now, I have an idea of writing a paper to respond to him, but, see, again, as Steve talked about accountability, I want to make sure that what
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I say will be within orthodoxy. I'm sure Steve will be able to help us out with this. Yes, so my question was, after examining the passages regarding David, I see
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David as being a perfect example of our understanding of Sola Fide, in the sense that if you read 2
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Samuel 7, specifically verses 11 and 15, God graciously makes a covenant with David that's unconditional, where he's going to give him an everlasting dynasty.
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And interestingly, in verse 14, he says something regarding Solomon, who built the temple for God and is the one that God adopts into his family as a son.
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He says that if he sins, I'll punish him with the rods of men and whip him with the whippings of men, but my love
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I will not take away from him as I did from your predecessor. Now, that seems to imply to me that no matter what happens, no matter what sins they commit,
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God would not impute their sins against them, so therefore they would not lose their righteous standing before God. Well, you know,
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I think you probably remember what my response to Mistress and Janice was, and that is, to go into the context,
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I don't think there's anything wrong in going into the context and looking at David's life and saying, look, there is consistency here, but I think you need to start where I started, and that is, you have in Romans chapter 4, in Paul's words, the apostolic interpretation of the passage in the
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Psalms, and he says that the passage is talking about a blessing upon the man, and he gives, from his own perspective, what that blessing is.
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He says David also speaks the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.
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He doesn't say, when he says of David speaking, he's talking about the one who wrote this, but he does not say that the man that is discussed there is only
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David, or should be interpreted only as David, or anything along the lines at all. In fact, the use of the language there would indicate that he is saying, here's a further illustration of the general principle
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I just enunciated in chapter 4, verses 4 through 5. And so the first thing to emphasize is that St.
53:39
Janice missed the boat because he is saying, well look, Paul may be saying this is a general thing, he may be quoting this and making a general application within a certain context,
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I'm going to ignore all that, and I'm going to interpret David's life in such a way that that then becomes the context in which
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I interpret these words. No, the apostle gives us the context in his introduction when he says the blessing on the man to whom
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God credits righteousness apart from works. So the issue of works, crediting, the nature of righteousness apart from, all that has to be discussed in the context of the context of Romans 4, not running off to Psalm 32 or Psalm 31, the subject, whatever it was that he did at that point.
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And so I think that's where you start, and then what you can do to further establish that is to say, and the truth that Paul enunciates here is then illustrated in these situations in David's life.
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But I think we need to be careful in not saying, we think this is what Paul was referring to, that he was referring to all these other passages and he was bringing them in.
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No, he's just using this as an illustration. He does not expand upon it.
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He's primarily sticking with Abraham. He just puts this in here to demonstrate that Abraham's not the only one who experienced that kind of justification by faith alone apart from any works of obedience or merit.
55:04
And so I think that would be the direction to approach it as you're writing your paper. That's phenomenal, because I have your book and I wanted to include that.
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And as you said, I wanted to just use his own criteria against him because he mentioned, again, the fact that he committed adultery and so forth.
55:20
But even in that chapter where Nathan rebukes David for the act of adultery and murder, it says, interestingly, in 2
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Samuel 12, 13, that when David falls down and says, I have sinned against the Lord, Nathan's immediate response is, the
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Lord has taken away your sin. Like you said, Romans 4 is clear in and of itself.
55:41
And just to use the argument against him, I was thinking about showing here how here, because David is justified, his sins will not be imputed against him.
55:48
So I was thinking if I do something like that, do you think it would be okay using Romans 4 primarily,
55:55
Paul's interpretation, as you said, and then adding these things. Right. And the only thing, again, the important thing is we start with the actual exegesis of the text itself.
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And in that text, Paul does not go into those things. We don't want to leave the impression with someone who's honestly evaluating what we're saying that we are asserting that Paul was bringing all these things in.
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Instead, we make it clear what that text says, and then we can then expand upon that by saying, and this truth is then illustrated, and then move from there.
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Now, will people still misrepresent us? Believe you me. It doesn't matter how clear you are. People are going to expend tremendous effort to misunderstand what you're saying.
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But the fact remains that you do the best you can and leave it in God's hands.
56:40
Glory to God. Well, thank you for the answer. I appreciate it. Steve Lordwell, I'll see you guys in November. And I want to beat you to that buffet line.
56:49
I love you, Sam. I love you, too, brother. God bless you guys. Bye. Oh, man, was that an advertisement for the cruise or what?
56:58
Tremendous advertisement. And, yeah, I mean, it's going to be a great cruise. If some of you haven't signed up yet or didn't join us last year, what a great time.
57:08
And to sit, you know, under the stars on the back of the ship with James and to study
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God's word and to ask in an open forum, kind of like you just heard, questions about the faith, it is going to be an exciting time.
57:22
And, James, thank you for including me in the cruise again this year. And, man, what a pleasure to be with you on this broadcast today.
57:27
I hope it can be an encouragement to some of the listeners. And please pray for us with this
57:33
PC &D issue. I called their management last week and didn't get any return phone calls.
57:39
I've sent them e -mails. I've never heard back from them. And so we really hope that in God and his providence that he'll afford us the dialogue together to see if we can come to the bottom of this.
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And please pray for them, that their eyes will be open to the true God of the
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Bible. Indeed. And, Steve, how can folks get hold of you? What's your website for everybody? Website is www .a1m,
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the letter A, the numeral 1, the letter M as in Mary, a1m .org or audience1one .org.
58:12
And we have cruise information on there for the Alpha Omega Cruise. We have many articles, most that I have written, but a lot of great articles by James.
58:22
In fact, we have an excellent article by James on the Trinity right now on our website. And a wonderful article on the rot of religion, the idolatry of self -love by Richard Alain.
58:33
Excellent. Excellent. So thank you again, brother. Hey, thanks a lot for being with us. Thanks, everybody, for listening to The Dividing Line.
58:40
We'll be back Tuesday morning, 11 a .m. Mountain Standard Time, 2 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time. God bless.