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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.
It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this second day of August 2024.
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Well, we have just been joined by my guest today, Dr. Joe Rigney, bestselling author and fellow of theology at New St. Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho. He's going to be on with us for the first hour to discuss the theme, The Courageous Marriage, which is also the theme of an upcoming Bible conference at the church where I was formerly a member on Long Island, New York, before relocating to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.
And we will be giving you the details on that. And in the second hour, we are going to be joined by one of the pastors of that church, Bob Carson, a dear friend of mine that I've known for decades. And he was a deacon when I was a member there.
And thanks be to God, he has been elevated to the point of pastor to the place of pastor. And so he will be our guest for the second hour. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Joe Rigney.
Hey, Chris, thanks for having me.
Well, first of all, tell us something about New St. Andrews College, where you have just recently been appointed to the faculty.
Yeah, so we're a Christian liberal arts college here in Moscow, and we want to shape leaders making culture under the lordship of Christ. So, you know, we have a heavy emphasis on both the building and the fighting of the kind of of culture.
So taking that that passage in Ezra and Nehemiah about rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and seeing the educational task in the present moment as fundamentally about rebuilding the ruins of Christendom.
And so we want to, you know, sword in one hand, shovel in the other, as we seek to live faithfully under under Christ and commend the gospel to the world.
Great.
Well, if anybody wants more details on New St. Andrews College, go to NSA dot edu, NSA dot edu. And as I mentioned, you are going to be the the keynote speaker at the upcoming conference on the theme, The Courageous Marriage, which is going to be held Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th at my former congregation, where I was a member since the 80s when I was saved.
Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, formerly known as Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which is what was the name of that church when I was saved. And I'm excited about this conference, and I am enthusiastic to promote it and share the good news about this conference to my listeners.
Can you tell us something as to why this unique phrase that you've used is the theme of this conference and also the theme of our conversation today, The Courageous Marriage?
Yeah, so, you know, the conference organizers invited me, I think, because of a combination of two books that I've written in the last couple of years. One is a book on courage, just in general, and then one is a book on leadership called Leadership and Emotional Sabotage.
And both of those kind of have relevance in the present moment. If you think about what the kind of the core virtue that we might be needing, if we are in, as Erin Wren says, in negative world, what's the virtue that we really need to cultivate?
And the answer is courage. And courage is a, you know, Lewis famously said that courage isn't just one of the virtues, but it's the form of every virtue at its testing point, right? So if you only are honest when it's convenient, you're not really honest.
If you're only chaste when it's convenient, you're not really chaste. So courage, fortitude, is a kind of a habit of mind, a strength of mind that enables you to overcome hardship and danger and fear in order to pursue or cling to the good.
And so that's what we need as Christians in general in the culture. But it's also something that we need in our marriages, in our households, in our families, where we often don't recognize the degree to which we're operating out of fear, operating out of our passions kind of running us or the passions of others running us.
And so that was kind of the impetus for the conference was to speak into it. It's a marriage conference. It's for couples. But it's how do we think about marriage as a whole or the household as a whole?
And then what sort of Christian virtue should we cultivate in order to be faithful in the present moment?
Well, if anybody wants to find out more information about this conference, and if you want to register for it, and remember, it's Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th. Go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org, gracereformedbaptistchurch .org.
We will be repeating this information later on. But before we go into the theme of the conference in greater detail, as we have you on for the first hour, as a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.
And we'd love to hear a summary of your story.
Yeah, glad to do it. So I was raised in a nominal Christian home in West Texas. And so my mom and her family were kind of from that area and had been sort of nominal PCUSA Presbyterians. My dad was raised in a very, very nominal Catholic home on the West Coast before he ended up in West Texas.
And when they got together, got married, they just kind of defaulted. Everybody sort of went to church in that area. And so they did. We went to a PCUSA church. I was christened in the PCUSA church when I was an infant.
But when I was about, you know, we were regular attenders. It wasn't just, you know, Easter Sunday. It wasn't a major part of our, you know, did vacation Bible school and stuff like that. But when I was about seven or eight years old, for a variety of reasons, they moved across town to the large Baptist church there in our town in Midland, Texas.
And it was there that their faith, my parents' faith actually kind of took off. And so my mom, I think it was more of a renewal. My dad, I think, was probably converted at that time. And so about the time that I was at that point, then we really got involved.
We were there all the time. We were in Sunday school class. It was the Sunday school class that really drew them in and became a part of their community. And so when I was about 12, you know, the church there was one that regularly did altar calls during Sunday morning services.
And so at some point, I remember just leaning over to my mom, having seen that happen a number of times in that invitation, and just say to her, I think I need to go down front. And so we did. And the pastor said, all right, great.
Let's meet later this week. And so I met with the pastor. We walked through the gospel, which I'd heard a number of times by that point at that church. And I said, yeah, I'm that. That's what I believe.
And so prayed a sinner's prayer there in our executive pastor's office. The kind of special thing about that, especially now, is that it was around the time that my dad was, I think, a conversion experience of some sort as well.
And so he and I were actually baptized as Baptists in the same ceremony. So we were both baptized together. And that's highly significant to me now. My dad passed away about a decade ago after about a seven or eight year fight with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
And so it's a special thing to have had that kind of... At that time, the Lord did a work, not just in my life as a 12 year old, but in my family's life as a whole, which then led us... We became a part of a church plant from that church across town.
And my parents were really active in our youth group. I was really active. I fell in love with the Bible in high school and is eventually why I decided to pursue a calling in ministry. And so that was a key turning point.
But that's how God did it.
Amen. Well, I always love to hear the story of someone who is saved by the grace and mercy of our sovereign Lord. And we are now going to enter into our topic at hand, The Courageous Marriage. And if anybody does have a question of your own, submit an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
C-H-R-I-S-S-A-R-N-S-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state of residence in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
And when you are talking about marriage, that could be easily understood that questions of a personal and private matter may come in. But going back to your quotation of C .S. Lewis earlier, there are some of our brothers in Christ who are who share our reformed theology, who may be somewhat snobbish and don't want to have anything to do with C .S. Lewis because he did not share our Calvinism.
Can you give us our listeners some reasons why they should not overlook this figure from history that many view as a Christian hero?
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, Lewis was not a professional theologian, but he was actually a fairly good theologian. I think he was well studied in the kind of medieval and Reformation eras. And so I'd read a lot of old books, Augustine and Aquinas and Anselm and people like that.
And so even though he wasn't a pastor or had not been formally theologically trained, he actually, if you read your Christianity and some of his other works, he does a really good job of translating heavy sledding theology into layman's terms.
A lot of reformed folks, though, object to some of the statements that he makes at various times. He puts a particular emphasis on free will and things like that, although in doing so, he's not actually being unreformed in the sense that all the paradox or whatever you want to call it, the tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility is one that all Christians wrestle with.
And so he actually, in a number of places, has some very strong things to say about the sovereignty of God. In one of his later works, actually, he says, if there's providence at all, then every providence is a special providence.
So kind of an exhaustive view of the sovereignty of God. So everything is under the sovereign direction of God. When he talked about his own conversion, he actually said, you might as well have said that God chose me.
So an interviewer was saying, did you make a decision for Christ? And it was kind of talking in that, it was an American interviewer, I think, in the 1950s, 1960s, in that kind of decisionist revivalist language of did you make a decision for Christ?
And he says, well, you might as well have just said, God made a decision for me. Because for him, in the moment of conversion, the line between human responsibility and God's sovereignty just kind of evaporated.
He actually weaves this into his fiction, even, in his novel, Paralandra, where he talks about, at one point, the main character in that story kind of has this epiphany moment where predestination and free will, he just realizes there's no contradiction whatsoever.
And they're both true. So in that sense, I think he's actually more sympathetic, even if you think about the images of conversion that he often gives in like Narnia, where Eustace, for example, can't de-dragon himself.
Aslan has to, you know, scrape him, scrape all of the dragon off of him. And it's not something that he's able to do in his own power. So there's some really potent images there of, I think, a strong, sovereign vision of God, while still emphasizing the necessity of human response.
And he uses actually an analogy that I use pretty regularly to explain the sovereignty of God to people in my own teaching, which is the relationship between God and humanity is like the relationship between an author and his characters in a story.
So on the one hand, the characters have an integrity of their own. They make decisions. Those decisions matter for the story. They matter for the plot. If they don't do what they do, other things will happen.
And yet the entire story is under the control of the author. The author is the one who's writing the story. And Lewis used that illustration. He actually used Shakespeare. If Shakespeare and Hamlet are ever gonna meet, it's gonna be on Shakespeare's terms, not on Hamlet's.
Shakespeare will have to write himself into the story, so to speak. And so he liked that analogy. I think that's a great image of a reformed and Calvinistic view of the sovereignty of God. And so in that sense, I actually think he's closer.
He was a good Anglican. And the 39 articles are actually fairly reformed in their view of the sovereignty of God. So I've written on this in my book, Lewis on the Christian Life. I've got a chapter where I talk about Lewis on the sovereignty of God.
And so if listeners are interested, they can pick that book up and maybe dive a little deeper.
Now, so I'm assuming perhaps you would not categorize Lewis as some do as an Anglo-Catholic rather than a Protestant Anglican.
Right, yeah, I think he was, you know, he was lean more high church in terms of his view of liturgy. But he was, you know, he was a normal member, normal. I think evangelical member of the Anglican church had a strong notion of the need for conversion for the need for a new heart, things like that.
And so while he was very Catholic, little C Catholic in his sensibilities and viewed Roman Catholics as generally speaking, as brothers and sisters, as well as Methodists and other denominations. He was just a good Anglican, conservative Anglican of the mid 20th century.
OK, I don't want to go too far a field with discussions on Lewis, but we do already have a listener question from Candace. And Candace is in North Belmore, Long Island. And she asks, I understand that C .S. Lewis had a very unusual marriage to a fan of his literature.
Was it, in your opinion, an appropriate language? And even if it had some flaws and sins attached to it, can marriages benefit from learning more about his relationship with his wife?
Yeah, so it was a really unusual thing. Joy Davidman did, was a fan of his. She was married in an estranged marriage and was eventually was divorced. Her husband was an adulterer and she wrote Lewis letters and then eventually came to visit and was doing so with a pretty deliberate intent to marry him was smitten in that in that sense.
And so it was very unusual. His friend, Tolkien, did not like it at all, thought it was very inappropriate. But they did. They initially got got married sort of as a matter of common law so that she wasn't didn't have to leave the country.
And then she was British.
I mean, she was American.
He's an American and he was British and he was British. And so in order to stay in England, that was the way that she was going to stay. And he was happy to go along with it. Tolkien thought that was appalling that he would do that.
But eventually they actually did fall in love and seemed to have had a very fruitful marriage, a short marriage, because she died of cancer and then he died a few years after. So it was a short marriage.
But when he just when he talks about it, which he does in both letters and in his book, A Grief Observed, you really do see the affection and depth of that, of the of the love there that they had for one another.
You read her letters, you see similar things. And so I do think that while the circumstances that got them into the marriage were weird and and if I was their pastor at the time, I probably would have had some different counsel.
Once they were married, they were faithful to their covenant. They sought to honor the Lord. And so I think in that sense, there is there is something that you can I read. I will quote sometimes Lewis's reflections on his marriage from A Grief Observed in talks on marriage, because he he does present sort of the the depth and intimacy of a covenant relationship in a really beautiful way.
Now, do you think Shadowlands? I saw both movies, enjoyed them, although I wish the gospel was clear in them. Do you think that it accurately reflected their marriage? It appeared that according to the film, that initially Lewis did not really love this woman, but then fell in love with her after they were married.
Yeah, I yeah, I think that so I've not seen the. I saw the old the old one, the Anthony Hopkins one a long time ago. I don't think I've seen the new one.
So I thought that was the new one, because there was another one before the Anthony Hopkins.
Oh, OK. So I think that that's the one I think I've I've seen in it. But it's been so. But but the idea that he was sort of helping a friend out and a fan out in this weird way, which was Lewis as a just a general characteristic was a very as once he became a Christian, was a very generous.
No, he he paid tuition for some of his students, would basically give away all the royalties that he made. It was and it was bad because sometimes they needed the money to pay just the normal bills. And so he actually had to get help from his brother and others to manage his finances because he didn't do it very well.
But he was that sort of person who would just, oh, you need something. Yeah, I'd be happy to help out. And so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he that the initial marriage was more of a civil thing to help her out.
And then it was then on the other side of it that all of a sudden it grew into something better.
And what can those listening expect to experience when they attend the upcoming the Courageous Marriage Conference?
Yeah, so kind of the rough, the rough overview of what I think I've got four sessions that we're planning to walk through. And, you know, kind of the first one will focus largely on what is it? What does it mean to say that a husband is the head of his wife and the wife is the body of her husband?
In terms of that biblical image, what is headship and bodyship? What does the Bible mean by that? So we'll spend some time on unpacking that as sort of like this is what a household is. This is what a marriage is.
And then turn from there to kind of common sins of the household. So what sort of sins and temptations are men prone to, husbands prone to? What are women prone to both? And then use the scriptures to kind of illuminate those tendencies as well as commend kind of the what's the antidote?
How do we resist those temptations? And then from there, we'll talk about the productive household, the fruitfulness that ought to emerge from a marriage, that marriage is an institution oriented to dominion and fruitfulness.
You know, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, that sort of thing. And what are the challenges to that kind of in the modern world? There's the biblical household is harder to do in a modern, individualistic, technological, industrial society.
There's a number of changes that we've undergone over the last 200 years that make that really difficult. And so we'll explore some of those. And then the final one will actually turn to parenting, sort of that side of the fruitfulness.
How do you, how do husband and wife parent together well and avoid certain pitfalls in raising children in the Lord? Okay, we have to go to.
Our first commercial break. And if you have a question for Dr. Rigney, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with Dr. Rigney after these messages from our sponsors.
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That's royaldiadem .com and we will get 100 of the profits from that sale of jewelry. We are right back now with Joe Rigney, and we are talking about the Courageous Marriage. And before I go to any other listener question, I have a favorite quote by J .I. Packer on marriage, and I was wondering what your response to it might be.
I typically write this in the wedding card to those getting married when I'm attending the wedding. And the quote by J .I. Packer is, The Puritan ethic of marriage was first to look not for a partner whom you do love passionately at this moment, but rather for one whom you can love steadily as your best friend for life, then proceed with God's help to do just that.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on that quote, and also to be more specific about the importance of being your spouse's best friend. All too often people look outside of the marriage for friendship, and although we obviously should, and enjoy friendships outside of the marriage, but we should have a primary, a best friend in our spouse, shouldn't we?
Yeah, well, I think it some of it's going to come down to the definitions of like what what friendship is. I think there's there's kind of two dishes you can fall into. One is so I think that the husband wife relationship involves a kind of intimacy and counsel that is unique.
So I think when people say best friend, they mean something like a kind of relationship that is fundamentally different. So so I typically, I actually typically don't say that my my wife is my best friend because I had a best friend in middle school.
I had a best friend in high school. I had a best friend in college, and best friends are the sort of thing that can kind of change. And I kind of want to set the relationship off the covenantal relationship off.
At the same time, I know that when people do say that, like in that quote, what they're what they're trying to get at is that this isn't simply a relationship of, say, sexual intimacy. It's not a relationship of convenience.
It has to do with kind of a holistic union of body and soul together for the purpose of fruitfulness, not just through children, but then in life in general. And so and so in that respect, it's it's the sort of it's the sort of relationship that is it's unique.
And it doesn't. I think I think about Proverbs 31 and the way that the heart of her husband trusts in her excellent wife, who can find the heart of her husband trust in her. I think when people talk about my wife is my best friend, what they're communicating is my heart.
I can trust in her. I know she's got my back. I know that she can be with me in it. I know that it'll that she's she's going to do me good and not harm all the days of my life.
Amen. Well, what would you say in your experience? Is when you have heard about marital difficulties and we know that there are all kinds of reasons why people have marital difficulties. But but what would you say, in your opinion, from what you've observed, heard about are the root causes of most marital marital difficulties of which you became familiar?
Yeah, so it's interesting. One of the things I've often I've often done, and I probably do this at some level in the conference, this little preview, maybe of some of the themes there. But in the book of Genesis, when after the fall, when God curses man and woman, he curses the ground because of man.
And he curses the you know, he multiplies pain and childbearing. And your desire shall be for your husband. And he will rule over you. So what's so the man and the woman aren't cursed directly. Instead, other aspects of their life will be painful and they're different.
And so it's the man's labor. His work in the world is that the ground is going to fight back at him. That, you know, there are thorns and thistles. It'll it'll be hard, that sort of thing. And then her relationships are going to be painful.
So both childbearing, child rearing, her relationship with her husband. And I think what's interesting about that is effectively what God says is because of sin, men, you're now going to want more from your work than it can provide.
And it's going to fight back at you. It's going to be hard and painful and frustrating. Wives, you're going to want more from your relationships than they can give. And it's going to be hard and painful and frustrating.
And I think and those are actually mutually exacerbating tendencies so that the more a guy, the more than a husband, say, pours himself into his work in order, the more his wife wants, maybe wants more time with him or wants more engagement from him.
And then the more that she wants that, the more that he may want to pour himself into his work. And so it's that kind of mutually feeding spousal temptation that I think is responsible for a substantial portion of marital conflict.
If you, you know, men by God's design are oriented, oriented, kind of outside there. They exercise their agency and they achieve things out in the world. That's how God designed men. Women are more relationally oriented in that respect and find their happiness and fulfillment in that relational context.
They're the people that people come out of. And so there's a real that's God's design. And so when it's cursed, those tendencies mutually frustrate one another. And I think that that's the origin of a substantial portion of marital conflict.
OK, we have Heather in East Quag, Long Island, New York. And Heather says, I have very often had the story presented to me by friends who are married that they're having difficulties because the wife will say that the husband isn't an adequate Christian leader and the husband will say the wife is not adequately submissive.
How do you bypass or overcome when they are at loggerheads with one another over what seems to be a standstill over these issues?
Yeah, so the first thing I'd say is it is important to stress that part of what headship means is that the husband is responsible for everything in the home, even if he's not to blame for everything in the home.
So if things are going wrong, it might not be his fault directly. He's not the one who who sinned in particular with his whether it's his kids or his wife or whatever, but he's responsible to address it.
So I would first put the burden there and say, OK, whatever, whoever is at fault in the details, the one who's if God shows up at the house and says I need to talk to somebody, he's coming to talk to the husband first.
What it's the pattern we see in the garden, both Adam and Eve sinned. But when God shows up, he says, where are you singular addressing Adam? Adam, where are you? He's not he does talk to Eve eventually, but he first comes to Adam.
So I think that's where I'd start. And then the second thing is what the form that that responsibility takes will vary depending upon the issue. So it may be that he isn't taking enough initiative. In the marriage.
But I think sometimes wives might want their husband to take response. But the only thing worse than him not taking initiative in their mind would be that if he actually did right. In other words, they might not actually like it if their husband actually did did what God's if, you know, so they're unhappy when he's sort of passive or advocating or not taking initiative.
But if you said, OK, if he finally got off and said, OK, I'm going to do it, then then all of a sudden you might have similar different complaints or no, not that way, not that. And and that but that's the kind of where I would be pushing is, all right, if if the complaint is he's he's a passive, he's advocating, he's not leading well.
Let's let's see if he let's try it. Let's try a few things and see, OK, if he were to do this, if he were to initiate in this way, if he were to sort of be establish more boundaries or expectations in the home, is that welcomed with, oh, finally, more boundary and structure or is it?
Well, no, that's not what I meant. And then that will kind of reveal where where the real fault lines actually are.
Amen. Well, let's see. We have McQueen in Toronto, Canada, who wants to know, in your opinion, is separation temporarily, hopefully ever a biblically acceptable action to take when couples are having difficulty?
Yes, I think, especially in cases where there might be physical endangerment of some kind or or even just prolonged, there have been a handful of situations in my pastoral counseling where the prolonged conflict, stress, intensity means that a temporary separation may be the wisest thing to kind of stabilize everything, like let everybody catch their breath.
They're always risky if you're if you're to the point where separation is a live option, you're in trouble. And frequently that's the the next the next phase is further drift. But but not always. There are times where just everybody go to your corners, everybody take a breath.
But whenever we've whenever I've been a part of these, the goal pastorally has been a structured separation for the for the sake of stability. And it's of a temporary duration. OK, we're going to we're going to do the separation temporarily in order for everybody to kind of calm down.
And then but it's intentionally with the design for what needs to happen in order to to get everybody back together without necessarily putting, you know, hard and fast dates on stuff. So we usually will do that.
You know, hey, we're going to do a couple of weeks or if it was more substantial stuff, it might be a little bit longer. But the goal is over this next season, we're going to try to work through issues so that we can reunite.
But that doesn't always work. But it is it is a I think it's a it's a tool in the tool belt as a way of stabilizing very intense emotional situations.
Now, there is a very controversial issue. I'll follow up the question of my own in the body of Christ. And I know men on both sides and perhaps even shades in between but I know a godly men who believe that a Christian should never remarry after a divorce, no matter what reason they were divorced.
And there are some who take the counsel of the great Westminster Theological Seminary professor John Murray. And they believe that there are circumstances such as adultery and abandonment where remarriage after divorce is completely acceptable.
What is your view on that?
Yeah, I'm with the mainstream reform tradition that regards certain high handed breaches of the covenants. As if the covenants been broken in that kind of high handed substantial way, like adultery and abandonment being the two biblical grounds, that those would be grounds for divorce, which would then free the the partner who's been sent against to to remarry in the Lord.
So I'm not the permanent view that says you can't ever remarry after divorce for any reason. I have friends who hold to that. John Piper has been a close friend and mentor for years. That's his conviction based on his interpretation of scripture.
I considered it. I thought it was compelling at certain times, but it seems to me that divorce and remarriage in the scriptures is permitted in those sort of extreme in those extreme cases.
Yeah, where I would find real difficulty with the brethren that have the permanence view is if they are saying that their new spouses are living with them in adultery. And there are even cases where pastors who have that view tell them that they must not share the marriage bed because of that.
Right, right. Yeah, I've we had I've had people call. I think it was the school office or church office with that view because they had been it was a person who was in that situation. They had been had been divorced.
They had gotten remarried and they were being counseled by a pastor who was saying you're living in constant adultery and your soul's in danger, right? You'll this is this is damnable. And they were extremely distraught by this because they they were concerned, you know, is this what God expects?
And so, yeah, I don't think that that's the way the Bible thinks about. I think covenants can be broken. And I think that the the permanence view regards covenants and certain covenants as unbreakable in in every respect.
And I just don't think that's the picture of of the marriage covenant we get in scripture.
Yeah, I know that the right leaning Mennonites, because there are liberal Mennonites, but the right leaning Mennonites typically take that view of being separated out of the marriage bed, even if you're living in a different room with the spouse who has been previously married.
Well, we have been joined early by my second guest, Pastor Bob Carson, one of three pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, which is the hosting church for the Courageous Marriage Conference coming up.
And first of all, greetings, Pastor Bob, and welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time.
Thanks, Chris. I think you and I were together a long time ago on Iron Sharpens Iron.
Oh, I'm sorry.
It's so long ago.
That both you and I would probably forget.
That's how long ago it was.
So it's good to be with you, Dr. Rigney. It's the pleasure to join you. Yeah, to meet you and look forward to seeing you at our conference.
You know, we have about nine minutes left before Dr. Rigney has to leave and we go to our midway break. Do you have your own question for Dr. Rigney on the marriage conference before we have any listener questions asked?
Um, I guess, you know, when you do these conferences, Dr. Rigney, are similar topics that you cover that you're covering with us?
Yeah, I've never done kind of this full package of these four talks together. But all of these are variations of talks that I've given elsewhere. I was just actually, it was a men's retreat, so I didn't focus as much on the women's side of things.
But I just did a men's retreat in April at a church in which a number of these themes were picked up and addressed. And so it is an important, it's an important area. It's a confusing one in the modern world.
Culturally, Christians, the biblical vision of marriage is one that's out of step with the modern notion of what marriage is and how it works. We believed a lot of lies. And so reorienting and trying to get clear on what is marriage, how does headship and submission, how does headship work, what does it mean to be a body for the wife?
These are really important questions that I think people struggle with. And once they see it, though, once you can show them from the scriptures that resonates with their experience, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.
And so that's, I think it can be a great benefit to people to kind of give them direction for how to live faithfully.
Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think it's true. I think in many churches also, there's not a lot of teaching relative to this subject. So it really does. It really is needed in our day for sure.
Amen. And let's see, we'll go to one more question. I think we have enough time before you have to depart from us. Let's see here. I was just looking at it earlier. Here we go. We have Sylvia. And Sylvia is located in Freeport, Long Island, New York.
And she wants to know, do you teach that dating is an inferior mode of getting to know and marry a spouse other than courtship?
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't, so this is a terminology kind of question. So whether you call it dating or whether you call it courtship is not the main thing I'm concerned about. I would say something like when a man or a woman are in a position, in a reasonable position where they could be married, where marriage is on the table.
So I don't think ninth graders should be dating. I don't think really in high school at all, dating, any kind of pairing off, I think is unwise, foolish, and not good. But once they've reached an age where marriage is on the table, they could reasonably seek and pursue marriage.
Then to enter into a more focused time overseen by Lord willing parents, particularly a girl's father as kind of the head that he's her head. And therefore that's the one who the young man ought to be engaging with.
And absent that, if there's circumstances that prevent it for surrogate fathers, pastors, and others to be involved in helping a young man or a young woman get to know one another in a certain context, that's the model I would.
So if that's courting, then that's what that is. Some people would just say, oh, that's just really intentional supervised dating. But that's the basic premise of how I would commit it. And I've been teaching college students for the last 15 years and have been involved in obviously a number of those kinds of arrangements to help and counseled a lot of young men, particularly about how to take the initiative, pitfalls to avoid in terms of sexual purity, putting good boundaries in place, engaging with a young woman's father in order to pursue her for the purpose of marriage.
Now, let me ask you a question. I've asked this to my guests before who advocate a stricter courtship model where they would actually teach. And I'm not even sure that this is what you are advocating, but they would say that when we have an idea of approaching somebody of the opposite sex romantically, it should be always that we are intending to eventually get engaged and marry this person.
And one of the one of the problems I see with that is that if you are going to look at a woman as this is the one that I am going to marry, aren't you going to be more prone to be approaching the most physically attractive person?
And the same thing would be true with women, I'm assuming. And whereas to give a hate to use the word devil's advocate, but to a dating thing where even if you're involved in groups going out, not necessarily two people who are high school students going out together alone, but you're getting to know the person and you might wind up falling in love with somebody that you never would have thought you would fall in love with.
Can you just respond to that?
Yeah, absolutely. So that's and that that would be the difference. So it in terms of dating group stuff is exactly how you should get to know someone and that you might discover through group activities.
Hey, you know, I didn't notice her at first, but now having spent a bunch of time hanging out and doing stuff as a group, she's actually quite, quite amazing. And and then that levels it up to where you would then seek something more intentional with a view to engagement in marriage.
So that's how, you know, at New St. Andrews, in our freshman theology class, actually, we we devote a lecture to this because it's such an issue for for that age group. And that's what we encourage them to do is, hey, you guys are freshmen.
You guys should do lots of group stuff together. So guys and girls together avoid pairing off unless you're actually ready to be to seriously pursue it. Unless as men, you're able you think you could provide for a wife.
You're in a position to do that until then do lots of group stuff and don't make it the same group all the time. Don't kind of be a little clicky thing. But instead, get to know one another, ask questions, do what.
Do what you can do.
And for the young women, it's a way to kind of which guys are respectable, honorable. How do they engage with me? How do they engage with my friends? How do they engage with other men? Those are all things that you want to see.
And the group context allow for that in a way that just the pairing off typically doesn't.
Well, in about 30 seconds, because I know you have to leave before we go to our midway break. Could you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this subject?
Yeah, so I would say, like I said a moment ago, the marriage is in a in a rough in rough shape in the American context. And Christians ought to be the ones leading the way in recovering deep covenantal commitments with one another.
That's why I'm grateful for the opportunity to be speaking here in a few weeks in Long Island for this marriage conference. And I'm hoping that in casting a vision for how husbands and wives live together productive households, raising and rearing children, that the integrity of that family will be one that would honor God and be a potent force for the gospel in our culture.
Well, it's been a joy to have you on the program for the first time, and I look forward to you returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And in fact, I hope the next time you can be on with us for the full two hours.
Yeah, I'd love to do that. Thanks, Chris.
God bless you. It's great having you on the show.
Take care, Dr. Erdney. Have a great day.
Yep.
Well, we're going to be right back after this break with my second guest today, Pastor Bob Carson of Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick. And please be patient with us as this break is a little longer than the normal breaks.
And please respond to our advertisers as often as you can, because they are who pay the bills here and keep us on the air. Don't go away.
We'll be right back.
Greetings. This is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Shop and Zion Radio program. SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sense that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New Hyde Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New Hyde Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of a larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.
When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
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I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church and Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com, to place your order.
Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Pastor Bill Sosso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
Chris Armisen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a longtime partnership with our friends at CBBVS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
CBBVS has been a family-owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. And now they're also shipping worldwide.
Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Order online worldwide at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com. Or you can order by phone at 717 -249 -0231.
That's 717 -249 -0231. For orders of $50 or more, use promo code IRON for an extra 5 off their already discounted prices. And please, let our friends at CBBVS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
If you love Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture.
To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand-engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.
I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.
You need to read.
Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid-Ground-Books .com. That's Solid-Ground-Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And let me highlight a specific book available through Solid-Ground-Books .com that beautifully reflects the theme of the marriage conference coming up at Grace Performed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick.
That is the book Susie, The Life and Legacy of Susanna Spurgeon, Wife of Charles H. Spurgeon by my friend Ray Rhodes. And you could get not only other books on marriage, being the best biblical husband you could be, the best biblical wife you could be, but a whole host of other books on a wide spectrum of subjects, the finest in Christian literature, dating as far back as the 16th century Protestant Reformation and extending forward through the centuries all the way to our modern era, including such current authors as Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
So please go to Solid-Ground-Books .com frequently, purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my conversation, which is about to begin with my second guest, Pastor Bob Carson, one of three pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.
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The Bible is very clear. We're primarily to use our money, which he has blessed us with, and it's still God's money. Keep in mind, we're primarily to use it to provide for our church and our family and providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you do love the show, you don't want it to go off the air and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to support church and family and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational and even trivial purposes.
Please share some of that money with us if you don't want us to go off the air. Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate. Now, last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound and doctrinally solid church like Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick, New York, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I've helped many people in our audience spanning the globe find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live that are biblically faithful.
So if you are in that situation where you are without a Christ honoring, biblically faithful church home, send me an email no matter where in the world you live. Send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
That's also the email address where you can send in a question. The pastor, Bob Carson, one of three pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick, New York. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.
Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Well, Bob, since it has been such a long time since you've been on the show, I'm going to ask you to do something that we usually only do ask of first time listeners.
And that's could you please give us a summary of your salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised and the kinds of providential circumstances or sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?
Yes, thanks, Chris. Yeah, I grew up in a pretty much a non-religious home, although my parents sent me to Catholic school. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college, but I had absolutely no relationship with God.
I was in grammar school. I was a in the choir singing some wonderful hymns. And also I was an altar boy doing the mass in Latin. And so I was but I was not religious. I really I only did it for my own personal reasons to get out of school at the time.
So it really wasn't there. But yeah, and as I grew up, I was involved in a lot of ungodly things, mostly related to partying and having a good time, just enjoying my own pleasures of life, having no thought for God.
My sister began sending me some tracts or some things to read. And, you know, I kind of read once in a while and and then eventually something caught my eye. And I I also wound up I was in the Amway business for a number of years.
And they had a bunch of books that were mostly get rich quick kinds of books. There was a couple, though, that piqued my interest that had to do with grace and salvation. And and so I began to read a little bit.
And then I went to a one convention many years ago in Norfolk Coliseum. And one of the businessmen got up and said. Just kind of out of the blue, just said, look, we're all sinners and. If you have not repented and come to Christ to forgive you your sins.
He said, I'm going to make one suggestion, buy an asbestos suit because you're going to need it in hell forever. And that shook me. And it was that day that I really thought about my sin and about my need for Christ.
I did in my own heart ask the Lord to forgive me, but I'm not sure if that was the the actual date of my conversion. But I began to seek out a church, my wife and I, Lynn. And we wound up at a church in Queens that the pastor was a wonderful pastor.
And it was an assembly of God church at the time. And it was the first time I began reading the scriptures and studying the scriptures. And it was at that time that I realized that, you know, of my the depth of my sin and what it meant and put Christ on the cross.
And so I had repented and began following Christ and then sincerely and eventually found my way to Grace Reformed Baptist Church. And by mistake. And I've been there now 30 years, over 30 years. And so that was me.
That was a 30 year mistake.
Well, what was I was heading to a.
I was heading to my daughter's pancake breakfast at her school for fathers. And a fellow named Mike and Larry were walking down the street. And as I got out of my car, I met Mike and Larry and went into the men's breakfast.
And we just chatted about things, you know, and baseball time. The Mets. I was a Yankee fan. So I was talking against the Mets, of course. But in the middle of that, the headmaster got up and said, we're not going to hear from Pastor Mike.
And he got up and gave a message on fathers. And I was the first time I'd been to a Pentecostal church, had been attending one for a number of years. And I began weeping over my sin as a father. And the next week I came home and I said to Lynn, I said, hon, we're going to this church, Calvary Baptist Church in Amityville, and we're going to check it out.
And we sat in the back row, listened to the message and were convicted. And we never left from that moment on.
And that church is what later became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island.
That's right. And I merged with, we merged with the First Baptist Church of Merritt. And in 1995, we became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merritt, Long Island. And as I said, it's been a wonderful journey and a blessed journey for me, my family, and of course, for all the brethren over the many, many years.
So well, I've just been, I've just been informed that that very pastor you mentioned, Mike Gaydosh, one of the sponsors of Iron Trip and Zion Radio is listening right now. And so I'm very relieved you didn't say anything insulting or defaming of his character.
And if I'm not mistaken, I think before you actually joined Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which is where I was saved and dunked into the waters of baptism by Mike Gaydosh in my mid -20s, in the 1980s, I'm almost certain that I met you at Pete's Diner on the borderline of, well, actually it was in North Amityville.
Right on 110 there, yes.
Yes, and you were going to a Bible study that Mike led at that diner before you joined the church, right?
Correct. Well, no, I think I had already, maybe I hadn't joined yet, but I was attending the church and I was going to, yeah.
Yeah, well, so glad that you did eventually by God's design, join that church. And when I was a member there, you were a deacon and now it's wonderful to know that you have been appointed as one of the pastors.
And I know that the folks that I remain in contact with there are thrilled with that fact. They are very thankful to God that you are one of their shepherds there. And so I'm always glad to know that the Lord is still using that wonderful church.
And yeah, well, it's, you know, having mentioned Mike, you know, we're good friends with Mike and Susie and the family, and they've been such a blessing to us over the years and a mentor as well to me in my faith and in my teaching.
When I began teaching as a deacon Sunday school, he was very helpful to me. And then now serving with the two pastors that I serve with, Pastor Doug Totter and Pastor Dan Mercado has been just an absolute blessing to me.
Really is just growing me weekly, daily, weekly in my walk with God and also in my ministering to the brethren there and just love the two brothers. And I'm so thankful for them. And, you know, having a plurality of elders, I think, is the model that I think we should have.
I know there are many pastors who don't have that and and not by design, but having a plurality of elders is a wonderful model to help keep all of us pastors accountable to one another. And so, again, it's been a great blessing.
Before I have you let our listeners know about Grace Christian Academy, Mike Gaydosh, the founder and president of Solid-Ground-Books .com, who sponsored this program. He has a question for you. Ask Bob about the job he took after my message at South Shore.
And I'm assuming he means South Shore Christian School.
Yeah, well, after we he I had moved, I was working in Manhattan at the time and I was not spending the time at home. And that's what really convicted me of my sin of not being the father that I needed to be.
And after that message and after we went to the church and then so I wound up taking a job on Long Island to be closer to home and spend more time at home. And and that was, you know, of course, Mike's help with that.
But so we took the I took the job in Melville, Long Island, and he said he'd love to come the first day and pray with me on the job. And so he did. And he came and prayed with me in my I had this big office, a corner office, because I was the manager and it was all kinds of.
And he came and we prayed. And I tell him that was the worst job I ever had in my entire life.
So I told him,.
Don't pray for me on my job anymore.
Well, since you're having a marriage conference, one thing that married couples should certainly do. And of course, sometimes there are situations in life where you have single parents with children. But one thing that they should certainly do is view the education of their children as of the utmost of importance with very few rivals in their lives other than the worship of God himself.
So tell us about this, this Grace Christian Academy of Long Island.
Yes, we are going to be celebrating our 25th year next this coming school year. And it's been an amazing ministry for us. It's our largest ministry, clearly by far, because of all the people involved in the ministry.
And my two youngest children attended and graduated from Grace Christian Academy a number of years ago. And we have approximately 140 to 150 students, depending on, you know, how many more students may apply this year.
We have over 20 teachers, all of whom love the students, all of whom consider this a ministry because clearly we don't pay them enough. We want to pay them more. And so we continue to raise money through our annual gala and other means to help continue to increase the salaries of our teachers because they do an amazing job.
And also the benefit of the school is the class size is usually less than 15 students or less. Sometimes it's slightly more, but most of the time it's less than 15 students. And so the children receive a tremendous amount of attention every day.
And of course, we are one of the few, if only classical Christ-centered Christian schools on Long Island where everything that we do is focused on the Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel. And it's all about teaching the children all of the various subjects in context of a Christian worldview and a Christ-centered worldview.
It's a time-tested educational system that teaches the biblical worldview, incorporating methods based on phases of child development and cultivates Christian virtues. And it trains students in reasoning through what's called a trivium, which is through grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
And these three phases of the classical Christian model sharpens the students' reasoning, their language, their rhetorical skills so that they're free to think for themselves and to cultivate wisdom in light of Christ's creation.
And His kingdom. And it's clearly different from the public school and the university school model, which cease to indoctrinate the minds of students with ungodliness so that they only learn, they don't learn what to think.
They are just taught. They are taught what to think, not how to think. And so we see the result of this indoctrination in all of these recent protests and hatred in the human heart. And so being not only a classical but primarily Christ-centered school, K through 12, we are committed to incorporate hymn and the gospel in all of these areas.
And so while most Christian school adds some Bible classes and chapel to provide some spiritual aspect, we do not separate education into different parts, secular and religious, resulting in a divided view.
We incorporate both the secular and the religious together and teach them all of the they learn Latin. They learn all of the Greek studies, all of the books. And so they're able to understand the Greek philosophy and how that compares to the Christian worldview and allows them to be able to discuss their faith, to logically argue their faith.
And so it's an incredible education as well as an incredible opportunity for parents to have their children exposed to every day, to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And teachers pray with the students.
They help them. They also work with the parents on anything that the student needs. And it begins with the holiness of God, the depravity of man, the reality of hell and the good news of Christ atoning works.
So we believe that this is the model that education should be. Of course, many parents do are able to homeschool their children, which is a wonderful thing as well. But clearly giving your child over to a system that does not incorporate Christ and Christian values is not necessarily going to help them grow.
Well, you mentioned Latin and I, just like you, before I was saved, was a Roman Catholic and I went to Roman Catholic grammar school. But unlike you, because I know that you are so much older than I am.
Thanks.
I was a post Vatican II kid going to Catholic school right on the heels of the conclusion of Vatican II and they were phasing out any significance of Latin. And we had an English mass when I was an altar boy.
So it's interesting that here you are an evangelical Protestant Reform Baptist school and yet you're teaching Latin. I never was taught Latin in my era of Catholic education. Why are you folks being the staunch Calvinists that you are teaching Latin?
Well, you know that, you know, Latin is the basis for many of the languages. And so it also is was one of the primary languages in the early days of the Christian church. And so it allows them to understand.
More and more of.
What the language means and what the language, what other languages are incorporated from the Latin language. And it just gives them an opportunity to understand and even maybe pursue other languages as well in their work.
Well, I want to make sure that our listeners are aware if you want to find out more about classical Christian education and even more specifically Grace Christian Academy of Long Island in Merrick run by Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick.
I would highly recommend that you go to the Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio website and type in the search engine Hegseth, H-E-G-S-E-T-H, and you will have there the audio for an interview I conducted with Pete Hegseth of Fox News on his book, Battle for the American Mind, Uprooting a Century of Miseducation.
And he was also the keynote speaker for a fundraiser for Grace Christian Academy that year. I happened to be honored with the role of the emcee that year and actually the following year, too. And joining me on that show was Steve Schultz, the headmaster of Grace Christian Academy.
So type in Hegseth, H-E-G-S-E-T-H, and that will come up. I hope that you are blessed by that. Well, obviously, marriage is an important role or an important aspect of the Christian life. But there are many themes that you folks at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island could have chosen for a conference.
Is there any specific reasons that compelled you for 2024? You know, we've got to have a marriage conference.
Yes, you know, just as Dr. Rigney has said, you know, there's not a lot of teaching on all of the real important subjects related to marriage. And as a pastor, pastor for only now a little over three years, I've come to see, even in within, you know, our church and other churches, that there are marriages that need help and they need counsel and they need to understand the biblical warrants in marriage, all of the things that husbands and wives ought to be learning and thinking about as they both grow together in Christ, but also as they begin to have families, of course, and to be able to model Christ for their children and the father to lead the home in a way that models Christ for his children and for his wife and to wash his wife with the word of God as well.
And that's why, you know, we at our church, we've been very blessed to be able to continually teach all of the, both the confession, the catechisms, and all of the things that also relate, some of the things that relate to marriage.
And that's what I think is important. Without the word of God, without Christians truly understanding what the word of God has to say about marriage and about parenting children, then, you know, we're missing the boat.
And because, as you said, the culture is against us, clearly, Satan is against us, always trying to kill, steal and destroy our marriages and our children. So we need to be very proactive in discussing marriage, discussing the difficulties in marriage, the challenges in marriage, the challenges that men today have in leading their homes.
Unfortunately, many men, including myself, were not taught how to be a leader in the home. And so it really, it's not something you can just gloss over and just hit once in a while. It is the bedrock of our society, the family, and the bedrock for the gospel to go forth into society is the family.
And so the family needs to be the strongest unit. And we need as churches and as pastors, we need to promote this idea of bringing together people to learn about marriage, not only in married couples, not only those who might have already been divorced and have children, those who are obviously seeking to be married, those even us older folks who have been married for a long time, or even those who have unfortunately lost their spouses and are older.
They can be great mentors to young people in there as they get people look to get married, get married, have children, and be there as mother and father figures to these young people to help them navigate this difficult society that we have.
And all of the social media challenges that exist for our children. And so it really is something that's important for everyone to learn scripturally how to help others and what good marriages should look like and what husbands and wives and children ought to be in families.
So it's a critical issue for the country, but mostly it's a critical issue to share the gospel.
We have Carmela in Foxen, F-O-X-O-N, East Haven, Connecticut. And Carmela says, would you agree that one of the major problems that produce marital difficulties is that Christians very frequently forget the innumerable sins for which they themselves have been forgiven by Christ and they do not pass on that forgiveness to their own spouse?
Yeah, that is certainly a major issue. And I think it's a major issue in Christianity that's not being taught about forgiveness. And I think that clearly we ought to be the most forgiving people. We ought to know that we're sinners and that two people getting together, our two sinners being married and forgiveness ought to be a big part of it.
And when you see, even in some of the Old Testament, I was just thinking about David who sinned greatly in his marriage with Bathsheba and then wound up having the sword never leave his home. But yet you read later on how Bathsheba didn't leave him or didn't get divorced, but was with him and continued to have children in the home.
So just examples of forgiveness there after he had killed even her husband. I'm sure she wasn't a happy camper about that. But I think the idea of forgiveness is now not all can be forgiven. As we heard earlier, there are certain breakings of covenant that allow divorce.
But for the most part, we should be as Christians. Jesus forgave us our many sins, our wickedness, and we should be willing to forgive as we pray our Father that we would forgive others as he has forgiven us.
And so how can we not look to forgive? How can we not make that something that we would pray about that the Lord will allow us to be forgiving and, you know, within the context of our spouses?
We have Morris in Waitley, Massachusetts, who wants to know, I believe that laughter has been overlooked as an extremely important element of a healthy marriage. What is your opinion?
Well, I think laughter is a great thing, not only for marriages, for life. I mean, we need to be able to laugh and enjoy what we see as enjoyable things to rejoice and laugh and even laugh at one another.
Of course, you know, not in a negative way, but just to laugh with one another about things that happen in life but be serious at the same time. So we need to have that balance of both being serious about our walk with God, but also, you know, God laughs, but he laughs at wicked people.
And we shouldn't, we're not God, so we shouldn't be laughing. We should be pitying them and we should be sharing the gospel with them as God allows us to do that. But laughter is great for the health, great for the mind, great for the soul.
And so, yeah, we should laugh.
Yeah.
Chris, I think you've been involved in laughter over your lifetime.
Maybe too much, I don't know. Yes, for one time, or actually for quite a period of time, I should say, I was the appointed court jester of Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island anytime they had a special event.
I have a lot of fun memories about that. Well, and I think it's also, there's a reason, obviously, that our Lord and his wisdom in his breathed out word in Proverbs 17, 22, says a merry heart doth good like a medicine, but a broken spirit dryeth the bones.
And some of the translations actually say laughter doth good like a medicine. So obviously, even God believes that there's an importance to that. And I don't know if you wanted to say anything, but we have to go to our final break.
Yeah, I was just going to say that, yeah, laughter is good medicine. But also, you know, when we talk at, for example, at funerals, we bring up Ecclesiastes where it says sorrow is better than laughter, for by a sad countenance, the heart is made better.
And also, you know, the idea of being sorry for our sins, sorry for what we have done brings healing, brings forgiveness to us. And so the heart of the wise is in the house of mourning. So when we are thinking about our lives, we should always be thinking about the fact that we're not going to be here forever.
And we ought to make that something that's always in the back of our minds, that we are here for a purpose. And that purpose is to glorify our God.
Well, we have to go to our final break. And if you have a question that you want to send in, send it immediately, because we are rapidly running out of time. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back.
Please do not go away.
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I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Limbrook Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, Gospel-driven church looking to spread the Gospel in the Southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the Earth.
We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family. At Limbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit,.
Works, or ritual.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living,.
Good works,.
And appropriate respect and concern to all who bear God's image. If you live near Limbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.
For details, visit limbrookbaptist .org. That's l-y-n-brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Limbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing.
And the knowledge of himself.
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Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.
He really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.
Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers. Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe Roiligan, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland sends you.
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We can be reached at SecureCommGroup .com. That's SecureCommGroup .com. But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure.
When he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sense that same God given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
God bless you.
And folks, please never forget that this program is also paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco Associates. If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the United States, call Dan Buttafuoco, attorney at law at 1 -800-NOW-HURT, 1 -800-NOW-HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com, 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com.
Please tell Dan Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm, Buttafuoco Associates, from Chris Armisen of Iron Trepans Iron Radio. Well, I just want to let you know, Bob, that our mutual friend Mike Gaydos of Solid Ground Christian Books has said that you are doing such a wonderful job, and he loves you and your family so much.
But I noticed he said nothing about me doing a wonderful job. So I just thought I'd pass that on to you.
Um, yeah, he's a good man and doing a great work, even now with Solid Ground and all his other ministry that he does as part of the church in Florida there. So they're a great blessing to us.
Weston in Yorba Linda, California, said, I have heard that most, if not all, classical Christian schools insist that the parents of the students be Christians. I think that may be losing out on a great opportunity to provide Christian educations for kids that might not ever have that opportunity because of the fact that it doesn't take place in their homes.
And of course, the parents would have to know that you're teaching them the truths of the Christian faith, and they may be willing to allow you to do that, even if they are not themselves believers.
Yes, that is many times how the classical Christian schools work as far as having the parents be Christians. I think one of the reasons for that is that one of the more important things for a classical Christian school, a Christ-centered Christian school, is to make sure that they keep up the quality of the education and the quality of the school.
And so not knowing and not having parents who are saved, the children of those households are not being brought up under the word of God and do not have maybe even the character being formed. That's not necessarily true.
There are many parents who are teaching their kids moral things and good things and helping them grow. But as far as maintaining the unity of the body of the school, having a Christian household is important.
Now, we don't require that in our case, we don't require that both spouses be Christians because we know there are some Christians who were married before they became Christians. They were married and one of the spouses might have become a believer.
So we just want one of the parents to be attending a Bible, a solid Bible teaching church. We also require that of our teachers as well because we want a Christ-centered education and we want the kids in the school to have a Christ-centered background and home life to the extent possible.
Now, we've made some exceptions in the past for very rare circumstances, but that has generally been the case.
And of course, the safety and well-being of the other students is taken into consideration, correct? Because you never know.
Yeah, I mean, it has to do with, you know, having the, hopefully being brought up in a Christian home, having the Bible being taught to the child. And so the child has an awareness of right and wrong, which is unfortunately isn't being taught, obviously, in the public schools.
So that's important for the unity of the kids, the protection of the kids, and, you know, generally the protection of the whole student body.
I want to take this time to plug a book that is available through solid-ground-books .com, For the Children's Sake, Foundations of Education for Home and School by Susan Schaefer McCauley. And you can get that at solid-ground-books .com.
Well, I want to make sure, Bob, that you have at least a minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.
Well, I think as far as the school is concerned, I just want parents to, who, you know, really want a Christian education for their children to consider the value of a classical Christian model that brings up children and teaches them how to think, not what to think, and to be able to debate, not in a negative way.
You know, the idea of debate today or arguing today has a bad connotation. But in the past, it was the way to profess your faith, to argue your faith, to debate with the world, the Christian worldview, as important as they grow older, and especially as they get into high school.
Some people think that they can take their kids out and put them in a public high school, and that's going to help them. Well, those are the most dangerous years for teenagers to be put with non-Christians and to have the values of those children being put upon our children.
So I would just ask that they think about that seriously, pray about it, and you know, our church is about families. It is about husbands, wives and children and ministering to them as well as singles who we want to minister to as well.
And so we, and children are important. We're just finishing up our Vacation Bible School. It's about standing strong in today's battle for truth. And so we certainly, as part of our mission is with the school and with the church is to teach children that biblical worldview and of course, bring them to, that God would have mercy upon them and bring the gospel to them so they would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Well, folks, don't forget the Courageous Marriage Conference is being held Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and the 24th at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick. And to register for this event, go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org.
Gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. Don't forget about Grace Christian Academy, the school run by Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island. That's G-C-A-L-I dot com. G-C-A-L-I dot com. I want to thank you, Pastor Bob, for doing such a great job.
Look forward to you returning to the show. I hope everybody has a safe, joyful, refreshing and Christ-centered weekend and Lord's Day. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
Amen, Chris. Thank you. Take care.
Thank you, brother.