Bonus: Can Al Mohler have his cake and eat it too, Part 1

A Bonus Episode on Al Mohler and the “Have Your Cake and Eat It Too” Question

Rutgers Health takes an integrated approach to educating students, providing clinical care for our communities, and conducting innovative research to create life-changing health for all. As New Jersey's academic health center, Rutgers Health brings discoveries in the lab directly to patients across the state and around the world.

Our eight schools, Behavioral Health Network, and four centers and institutes are located just outside New York City, in Newark and New Brunswick. Together, we're breathing new life into health.

This is an official message for New Jersey voters about the 2023 general election. There are three voting options in the upcoming general election. Option one, vote in person on general election day, November 7th.

Option two, vote early, in person October 28th through November 5th. Or option three, apply for, complete, and return a vote by mail ballot. Whatever option you choose, vote by 8 p .m. on November 7th.

Get details at vote .nj .gov. That's vote .nj .gov. Folks, today we're going to have a little bit of a special edition of The Wrap Report. It's actually going to be a bonus episode that we're going to do, and I'm going to have a second bonus later in the week.

Here's what we're doing. There is a contest going on at Do Theology on Facebook. That's one of the Do Theology podcasts. It's one of the podcasts at the Christian Podcast Community. They're having a contest for podcasters.

I want you to go out there and vote for this podcast, The Wrap Report. We're going to be teamed up in round one against Al Mueller. For that reason, we want to play Al Mueller in his own words on today's episode.

This is one that we played in the past, but we have a lot of new listeners, and maybe you missed this one. I think that this is going to be even more important when we look in light of the fact that what we're going to see in these bonus episodes is Al Mueller.

Well, I'm going to challenge him to take a position on things like, well, Beth Moore's view on homosexuality and social justice, and the thing is what you're going to see is, well, now Beth Moore left the SBC.

I wonder, and I ask this, will Al Mueller come out now and speak against Beth Moore? We'll wait and see, but I want you to listen to this and see, well, is Al Mueller got a double standard? And that's going to be the question for you to think about.

But please, go out to DoTheology on Facebook, the DoTheology podcast, and go vote for The Wrap Report. Also, before I play this episode, I just want to remind you that we are sponsored by MyPillow. You can get a MyPillow, all their discounts, they've got some great discounts that you can get with our promo code SFE, that stands for Striving For Eternity.

You can go to MyPillow .com, click the Radio Listeners square, and use promo code SFE, or call 1 -800 -873 -0176. That's 1 -800 -873 -0176. That's a special number just for us. So get yourself a MyPillow and support Striving For Eternity at the same time, and go out and vote at the DoTheology Facebook page for The Wrap Report.

Welcome to The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of Striving For Eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Christians Must Give Direct Answers About Sin

Christians must be ready to give a direct and honest answer when we are asked a question about sin. That might come, indeed it will come, with a considerable political cost, but failing to answer the question comes with an even deeper cost to both theology and doctrine and to personal ethics.

Trying to have your cake and eat it too is thus a metaphor for trying to.

Have it both ways. It is impossible. Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of Striving For Eternity and the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org. All right, we are going to jump right into this episode.

Because we got a lot of material to cover, and we don't have a whole lot of time to do it. We're actually going to cover this in two parts, so this is going to be the first time, I think, we've ever done two parts on The Wrap Report.

I am your host, Andrew Rappaport, and this is The Wrap Report. To start off real quick, I want to give a review that we got in, and I'm really thinking, Bud, that this must have come from The Daily Wrap Report, which is Monday through Friday, only two minutes long, because the review we got from TNN15, it's five stars, and it says, Good Biblical Short Encouragements.

I'm thinking after the last episode, there was an hour and 45 minutes. I'm not quite sure that's what the episode they were referring to. But to get a.

Review like that from TBN, I mean, Trinity Broadcasting, that's tremendous. No, no, no, that's TNN. Oh, we'll then edit that out. So let's get into one thing. I hope that you listened to.

The last episode where Virgil Walker and I walked through, no pun intended on his last name there, but Virgil Walker and I walked through Ben Shapiro's interview with Gloria Allred, and addressed some of the things they were bringing up, especially the issue of abortion, some of her views.

Now, if you listen to that, and yes, it was long, there was a lot of material there, and there wasn't a real good way to break it up, but I want to differentiate something. If you listen to that, we are trying to teach you.

We're teaching you how to see when people have failed arguments, how people respond to things, to evaluate arguments, to learn logic and how to evaluate things. That's because at Striving for Eternity, we are a teaching ministry.

We're different from a discernment ministry. We do discernment, and this podcast is going to be more in the discernment realm, but it's not the overall arching view of our ministry, because there are times we have to call people to be aware, to be discerning of others, and that's what we're trying to do here, but we're doing it as part of a overall teaching ministry.

That's the goal with Striving for Eternity. So, we're going to be addressing some things with Dr. Al Mohler. Now, I have a lot of respect for Dr. Mohler, a very intelligent man. I listen to his daily briefing each morning when it comes out, and we're going to be playing a lot of clips from his podcast, The Briefing, from Monday, November 11th, 2019.

I will have the links in the show notes so you can listen to the whole thing and see that we're not taking things out of context, but what we want to do is address the fact that there are some things that Al Mohler, well, as you heard in the opening, can't have his cake and eat it too.

That metaphor is provided by him, and it's one we are going to kind of be encouraging to hold him to, because we think that there are some things that, in two areas that we're going to address, one this week and one next week, that we're going to address things that we see that may be a little bit wanting, maybe a little bit where Dr. Mohler needs to reevaluate just a bit.

And so, we do this in a loving way. We're not looking to smear him. We're not looking to tear him down, but we do want to call him out and call him to really evaluate whether he is trying to have his cake and eat it too, and be ready to answer direct questions.

And so, I want to play some clips of this, and then we're going to get into the topic that we would really like to see. There's some things that he had on that briefing on November 11th, and I want to play a longer clip, just like I did last week, so you get the context, and then we're going to break it up and go through this.

So, here is a little bit of a longer clip. But the big point of the headlines is that Andrew Scheer was asked the question, do you believe that homosexuality is a sin? Now, that's an interesting question for a political leader to be asked, not so much being asked these about anything related to the LGBTQ array of issues, but rather being asked if one believes that homosexuality is a sin.

Let's just face it, there are so many in our society who do not want that question even to be asked. But in this context, the asking of the question was intended to embarrass Andrew Scheer and to force him to answer the question one way or the other.

The predicament for Andrew Scheer is that he is well identified as a Roman Catholic, and the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that even though all persons should be treated with respect, not only homosexual behavior, but same-sex sexual desire is unnatural.

It is objectively disordered. Thus, homosexuality is a sin, which means that Andrew Scheer, if he answered on behalf of the church of which he is a member, would have answered, yes, homosexuality is a sin.

But he refused to answer one way or the other. Colby Koch, writing for the National Post, based in Toronto, summarized the situation this way, quote, Andrew Scheer is being pursued by journalists and criticized by conservative colleagues because he will not give a straight answer when asked if he thinks homosexuality is a sin, end quote.

All right, now I will say I agree with what he says. Let me bring you up to speed if you don't know who Andrew Scheer is. Andrew Scheer is someone who is a politician in Canada. So this is a foreign country.

This is not someone within Christianity. He is actually outside of Christianity. He's Roman Catholic. He is running for political office. I make that distinction because what you see is he's not someone who is a pastor.

He's not someone who's preaching in churches. I think there is going to be a distinction in that we have to people who preach God's word to a higher account. And so I'm going to say at the outset, I agree with what Dr. Moeller is saying here.

I think everything he said is right. And that's actually where the problem is. Now, some of you may be saying, well, who do you think you are? You're saying that you're going to address some things with Dr. Moeller.

And do you know him? Have you have you reached out to him? Well, I have no way to reach out to him. Anyone wants to give me his phone number, I'll be happy to call him and address these things privately.

But he actually gave me permission to do this. In fact, he gave all of us because this is what he had said. But I hope to do so absolutely consistently and absolutely biblically with fidelity. And I invite you and all others to interrogate every aspect of my life and show me where I may come short.

OK, he said that at the Shepherds Conference during a Q &A. I was there. So he invited us to let him know where we think he's fallen short. So I want to break these clips up, bud, and go through these.

And then I want to apply these in an area that I think Dr. Moeller is falling short. So let me play this first clip that we heard a shorter version of it on the question of, you know, do you believe homosexuality is a sin?

Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin? Now, that's a question that he was asking. It's a question that needs to be answered, I believe. He says for a Catholic politician in Canada, it needs to be it.

It should be asked. In fact, he says a little bit more emphatically. Let's listen. Let's just face it. There are so many in our society who do not want that question even to be asked. And we would agree with that.

There's a lot of people don't want that to be asked. They wish that we wouldn't address the issue. But I have to agree with Dr. Moeller, because here's what he ended up saying about this. Not only homosexual behavior, but same sex sexual desire is unnatural.

It is objectively disordered. Thus, homosexuality is a sin. That seems pretty clear, doesn't it? That's absolutely clear. That's absolutely clear. So what we see is he's saying you have to question whether you believe homosexuality is a sin.

There are people who don't want this to be asked at all. And I think that he just laid out a very clear thing. This is abhorrent behavior and it is a sin. Now, he says the church should have a position on this.

Let's play that clip, which means that Andrew Scheer, if he answered on behalf of the church of which he is a member, would have answered, yes, homosexuality is a sin. So he's saying that a politician in a foreign country, in a foreign religion should answer that question.

Yes, because that's what the Catholic Church would say. And he's holding the whole thing was he was holding this man to this position. And his issue is that he was refused to answer. And this is what he says about that.

But he refused to answer one way or the other. OK, so he refused to answer. And that is the issue that he has with Andrew Scheer. This first part of his episode on the briefing, he was he was very upset with the fact that he didn't answer and that when he did try to answer, the answer wasn't strong enough for the people there.

And let me let me play. But this will be a three minute clip. But this is the politics of it. And this is all set up. We want to make sure we give the proper setup for this. Let me play a three and a half minute clip of what he said about the political issue.

And then we'll break this up a bit. And I want I really want to lay this groundwork before we get into the issue that I see where Dr. Moeller, I think, is having an issue. Yeah, one of the issues to note here is that the.

Political situation in so much of the Western world, Canada, here is an illustration that political change, that moral change is now happening so fast that there is now a shadow on any party that may have at any time held to any position that might now be described as socially conservative.

But when you consider the controversy now swelling or swirling around the conservative leader in Canada for not giving a direct answer, and as we know, that really means the right direct answer in the view of the media and the culture.

And so what we see from what you read there,.

Bud, I mean, let me play some of the clips that he had said with this in that section, because he says his issue is that it wasn't answered strong enough. The pressure is now on sheer because he did not avoid being dragged into this controversy.

Now, how did so many of his colleagues want him to avoid it by saying that there is no question that the conservative party is and always must be absolutely pro abortion, absolutely pro LGBTQ. The thing to note is that Andrew Scheer basically said just that, but evidently he did not say it with enough emphatic force to please even his conservative colleagues.

Okay, so Al Mueller is saying that he did say that it was wrong, but not with enough force to make it clear he holds to it, not with enough force to make it believable, basically. And this is the thing.

He is saying that the, you know, let me play this clip where the political situation is to never be going against the LGBT community is the argument. And there's this push against not saying anything against them.

But this is what Al Mueller had said on the briefing. One of the issues to note here is that the political situation in so much of the Western world, Canada here is an illustration that political change, that moral change is now happening so fast that there is now a shadow on any party that may have at any time held to any position that might now be described as socially conservative.

Okay, so we're seeing this in our culture as well in America, where people go back in time and hold you to things that weren't believed back then. This makes it very hard to maneuver in culture right now, because people are holding you to a standard, to today's standard, to not the standard when people say it and did things, and they're being held to hold to a standard that hasn't happened yet.

So how do you how can we possibly know bud, what the future standard is to know that we are not supposed to say certain words or do certain things 10 years from now. And we got to apply.

Them today. Yeah, that's completely unreasonable. But then you're dealing with a postmodern mindset where everything is momentary relativistic. And, you know, tolerance is the key virtues. So you can never expound anything firmly.

And finally, as as a valid answer to any kind of question.

Why Mohler Says Christians Must Answer Questions Clearly

And where we come to this, and where I see the issue is, is that he says that we have to be ready to give an answer. Okay, that is the issue. And let's take a look at the at this. So let's hear what he has to say, because now's where I want to bring up our concerns to a view that is in conflict with the LGBTQ revolution.

We're watching that happen all over the Western world. But we're also noticing something else of even more fundamental importance for Christians. Christians must be ready to give a direct and honest answer when we are asked a question about sin that might come indeed, it will come with a considerable political cost.

But failing to answer the question comes with an even deeper cost to both theology and doctrine and to personal ethics. Okay, so part of what he is saying here is, we have to be ready to give an answer.

And I would agree with that we do, we must be ready to give an answer when challenged. And this is the thing that I have issue with Dr. Mueller on. Because as we evaluate this, what I end up seeing here is that there is an issue that where someone has been asked the very thing that he asked, here was the question that he was asking, again, of a foreign country's politician, who's a Roman Catholic.

And his concern is this question, do you believe that homosexuality is a sin? Okay. Is that a fair question to ask of a Roman Catholic Paul Canadian politician? What do you think, bud?

Well, I think obviously, the journalists were trying to trap the guy because of his conservative leanings. But in the context of the political arena, that was a valid question, given the given the narrative of culture in our, in our, in our time.

And I believe so too. So here's where I see this issue where Dr. Mueller has said we should investigate his life and show where he comes up short. Well, this is where I believe Dr. Mueller comes up short.

He's willing to challenge a foreign country, a politician in a foreign country and a foreign religion. He's and I like I talked about with this about this issue, we're just going to discuss with Justin Peters, and he had a very interesting take on this.

He said, he's more he should be more concerned out more should be more.

Concerned that the guy's Catholic. Yeah, position on homosexuality. Yeah. We've got a gospel issue to get to first before we start dealing with some of these moral issues, which are clearly sinful. But you don't have an answer without the gospel.

Yeah, I mean, what's more important for for.

Andrew Scheer that he gets homosexuality, right? Or the gospel, right? Exactly. And so Justin's point was, he should be concerned that this guy is not saved. That's, that's the real issue that needs to get addressed.

And I am totally on board with that. But how much more if Dr. Mueller is going to be challenging Andrew Scheer to be clear in giving a clear answer when asked about homosexuality, when he says, be ready to give a direct answer?

Okay. Well, this is why I think that there's some, I want to use the word hypocrisy, but maybe that's too strong. Maybe the real issue is, can he have his cake and eat it too, because we're not talking about a foreign country, a foreign vocation politics or a foreign religion, Roman Catholicism, I want to talk about someone within the same country who is in the same vocation as Dr. Mueller, someone who gets, who stands before Christians and preaches God's word and is in the same denomination, not some foreign denomination.

They are Southern Baptists. And that is Beth Moore. Why? Because, and we've dealt with this on this podcast where I had one of the people who put this letter out to Beth Moore. Here was the very first question that was asked for Beth Moore to answer directly.

There's confusion with her position on homosexuality. She hasn't been clear about it. In fact, when she did write something negative about homosexuality in one of her books, it was pointed out that it was in one of her books.

And she went back and edited that out of her book on Kindle. And so you have to wonder where she's at. She has not answered this question directly. And here was the question. The first question I was asked, do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

And let's go back and listen. What I'm more said is the question. Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin? Sounds very similar. Yeah. Not only homosexual behavior, but same sex sexual desire is unnatural.

It is objectively disordered. Thus, homosexuality is a sin. Now, Dr. Moeller doesn't seem to have a problem answering that quite directly. So the question is, why doesn't Beth Moore? In fact, Beth Moore went after the several ladies that put this open letter to Beth Moore out there saying, well, why didn't they come to me privately?

Why didn't they? Well, because she doesn't make herself available for that. But Dr. Moeller, the question is, if you're saying that some foreign politician who's in a false religion needs to answer that question, then how much more must somebody who is in your same denomination, who has been spoken about as maybe being the president, that her name is being thrown out there as the president of your denomination, one that it seems you may want to be president of that denomination.

How much more should you ask Beth Moore to answer this question directly? This is not the Catholic church. This is not Canada, and it's not a politician. This is a woman that is in the Southern Baptist Convention, the same as him, both in leading positions of that, both teaching the Bible, and both within the same country.

So as we look at this, we must ask, Dr. Moeller, are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? Because I want you to hear what he says about this Canadian. He was saying he needs to answer. You know, he can't just sit here and not use clear language.

He criticizes the language that we can't beat around the bush. Let me play some clips here. And what you have here is the archdiocese negotiating with the Catholic school board in a way to accept the language while saying that it does so only in keeping with the official teaching of the Catholic church and, quote, through the lens of the Catholic faith as articulated by the teachings of the church and protected in legislation, end quote.

So now that was him referring to us later in that same podcast I referred to, because there was a change being done within the archdiocese where they're changing the language. Now he is against the changing of the language.

But you know what? Beth Moore is doing the very same thing. She doesn't want to use the clear language. My challenge to Al Moeller would be that he would do what he expects this foreign politician to do.

Dr. Moeller, you are a leader in the Southern Baptist Convention. You should be asking Beth Moore to come out and clearly answer the question. Her refusal to answer is the very same thing that you're criticizing with this politician.

And it's the language that she changes, that she tries to get around, that you have issue with when others do it. And so I think what you end up seeing here is you see an area where Dr. Moeller is just not being clear in what he's doing.

He is going to talk about the fact that language is never neutral. And I want you to see how he talks. So we see him speaking of a foreign politician. They must answer the question. When it comes to the archdiocese, you can't change the language, okay?

Language Is Never Neutral

Yeah, let me insert something here, because I don't want to intervene on your conversation about the language, because that's so critical these days. But just consider the timeline here, Andrew, of what you've laid out.

This particular briefing was released November 11th. The open letter that you have read, the open letter to Beth Moore, that came out in June, so five months before Moeller in this briefing, is making the very point about having your cake and eating it too, but that we are to be ready with answers that are clear, not confusing.

We can't avoid them. He's asking that of a politician in a foreign country in a false religion. And just months earlier, someone with, I mean, I'm looking at Beth Moore's Twitter page, she's got almost a million followers, a woman in the SBC who has not been quiet or unseen over the last year of SBC life.

He had to be aware, I would think, that this topic of her view on homosexuality had been out there. It was an issue. There are over 500 women that had co-signed this open letter to her, all with no response.

But he didn't use this platform in June or July or any of the subsequent months to speak to this. But here in November, when it's a foreign politician, false religion, another nation, then this topic's going to come up, and he's right in his answer.

We do need to be able to give an answer. We need to give it clearly and promptly, and it needs to be biblical. Peter commands us to do the same thing in one of his epistles. So Moeller is right. I think the duplicity is that it's easy to call out in what he's seen here in culture, but he's not doing it in his own backyard.

And I think what this is, maybe to apply a passage of scripture that many people use, and I'll use this here, is Matthew chapter 7. It seems that Dr. Moeller, like the Pharisees, can recognize a toothpick in the eye of a Canadian politician, but he's ignoring the two by four in the eye of the SBC.

And let me read all five questions that were asked of Beth Moore and see if these fit in the thing that Al Moeller is saying should be answered directly. Do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

Number two, do you believe that the practice of homosexual lifestyle is compatible with holy living? Well, Dr. Moeller clearly doesn't think so. This is what he said. Listen. Not only homosexual behavior, but same-sex sexual desire is unnatural.

It is objectively disordered. Thus, homosexuality is a sin. Okay, so he says more than just homosexuality is the sin. He's saying it's inherently a sin. He's saying that even the desire for someone of the same sex, not even just because we know there's a lot of people that want to say, well, hey, I can have the desire.

The desire is okay as long as I'm not giving in on the desire, as long as I'm not acting it out. And he's making it very clear.

The desire itself is a sin. That is a prevalent belief in evangelicalism today that the desire is not a sin. It is very clear from scripture. This is a principle. The desire to sin is sin.

And he, you know, I played that a couple of times now, but you can't get clearer than what he said. He's very clear. He could answer as we see, number one, do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

I think he would say yes, very clearly. He did. Number two, do you believe that the practice of homosexual lifestyle is compatible with Christian, with holy Christian living? It seems Dr. Moeller would say no.

Number three to Beth Moore. Do you believe a person who dies as a practicing homosexual, but professes to be a Christian will inherit eternal life? Number four, do you believe same sex attraction is in and of itself an inherently sinful, unnatural and disordered desire that that must be mortified?

And number five, why have you been so silent on the subject in light of the desire to quote, teach the word of God? Unquote. Now, number four, that quote that we played from Moeller, he makes it pretty clear that same sex attraction in and of itself is inherently sinful.

So I think we know where Dr. Moeller stands on this, and I think he's in the right position. But if he's going to demand of a foreign politician, that that foreign politician who's running for political office, he's not a teacher of God's word.

If the foreign politician must answer this, but Al Moeller doesn't seem to think he's in a position in a leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention to ask one of the best known Southern Baptists to answer this.

You know, I think Al Moeller may have an illustration that fits that. When I was a little boy, I was often befuddled by some of my mother's expressions, several of them, as a matter of fact, which often falls to children.

But one of them in particular, she would sometimes speak of someone trying to have his cake and eat it, too. I couldn't understand the difference between having and eating, because when she offered me a piece of cake, she would say, Would you like to have a piece of cake?

Only later did I figure out that what she actually meant was someone having the cake as in keeping it or saving it and eating it at the same time. That's the contradiction. Trying to have your cake and eat it, too, is thus a metaphor for trying to have it both ways.

It is impossible. It is impossible. I agree. And this is what Dr. Moeller is doing. He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He's trying to say that a foreign politician who's a Catholic must answer the question about homosexuality, but Beth Moore gets a pass.

Yeah. Beth Moore, whose name is being thrown out there and it's being questioned, can a woman be the president of the SBC and her name is being put up there, yet she refuses to answer this question. And what did she do when when pushed?

She's backpedaled when she did say that homosexuality was a sin in her book. And I'll put a link to an article that Justin Peters wrote where he pointed this out because Beth Moore put a blog post trying to explain why she edited out saying that homosexuality was a sin in her book.

She took that out of her book and she gave some explanations and those explanations really didn't hold water. And so as we look at this, you end up seeing that Beth Moore is not answering the question.

What she's doing is playing games with words. She's changing language and she wants to redefine things. She wants to go after the women who had the nerve to put this out there and ask this question of her.

But throughout this, and this is why I want to play some of these clips about language, because when we see this archdiocese that wants to change the language, Dr. Mueller speaks strongly against that as well.

He says you can't just play games with words. He says language isn't neutral. Listen to this. But as we're thinking about the necessity of clarity and the danger of confusion, evangelical Christians need to keep very much in mind that language is never neutral.

And that's the whole point here. Okay. Did you hear that? Yeah. No neutrality. No neutrality. Language is never neutral. And the thing that's so interesting is he's making it clear. Let's play this part again.

Evangelical Christians need to keep very much in mind that language is never neutral. And that's the whole point here. Okay. So who is he speaking to at that point? Evangelical Christians, no longer politicians, right?

Right. This is the thing. He's making this as a point that we must address it. Listen. Clarity and the danger of confusion. Clarity. We have to have clarity. And there's a danger with confusion. Well, Beth Moore has not been providing clarity.

She's been providing confusion. She hasn't directly answered the question. She's challenged people why she should be asked this. Some of her answers have been, my life is out. The people know what I believe.

Well, clearly people don't know what she believes. And Al Mohler doesn't seem to want to ask an evangelical what her position is. An evangelical leader what her position is. This is the problem of trying to find a way out of the situation.

We have a culture that is going to come hard against anyone that's in public speaking against homosexuality. And maybe they don't want that pressure. Maybe it's a money issue. Maybe, you know, hey, if you come out against homosexuality, you're going to lose some of your money.

I don't know. I don't know what it is. But Dr. Moeller clearly seems to think that you can't try to find a way to have it both ways, because when it came to the archdiocese, this is what he said. Now, what we need to note here is that the acceptance of that language is actually quite incompatible with the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

But this is not a predicament by any means limited to Roman Catholic schools and institutions, because we see some evangelical schools and certainly many other schools with different religious heritage and identity trying to find the same way out.

They're trying to find the same way out. And my question is, Dr. Moeller, are you trying to find your same way out of confronting Canadian politicians that are Catholics and not being willing to confront a Southern Baptist Bible teacher here in America?

Because if you're not willing to confront Beth Moore, then there's no reason you should be calling us to say that Canadians should have to answer. Canadian Catholics have to answer. Yeah, true. You see, he's trying to find a way out.

This is, and I've never been a Southern Baptist, I understand, but you have been. I have been.

What is the 11th commandment? Yeah, you will not utter anything disparaging about a fellow Southern Baptist, particularly one with a platform like Beth Moore. And that's what I think we see.

Okay, what it looks like to me is that we're seeing he doesn't want to confront a fellow Southern Baptist. I don't know any other way about this, but the reality is since Dr. Moeller has put this out there in his briefing on the 11th, I do believe we have the right to hold him accountable to say, okay, Dr. Moeller, you need to answer why you're not challenging Beth Moore.

And I hope someone gets this to Dr. Moeller to say, listen, now you don't have any excuse. Now you know people are holding you accountable to saying if you want to say that this politician must answer the question, that we can't avoid it, that we have to be ready to give a direct answer.

Beth Moore has to give a direct answer as well.

And she's not doing that. No. And, you know, just to add to that, the context that we're in right now, the SBC has their annual convention coming up this summer. It has already been indicated Al Moeller is going to be nominated for the presidency and more than likely will be the next president of the SBC.