October 24, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Celebrating the 20th Anniversary of the Documentary ‘Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism'”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 24th day of October 2024.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest who I absolutely love to interview, and judging from the responses I get from listeners, whether it be in emails or texts or on social media, there's a growing number of listeners who love when I interview this guest as well.

His name is Jerry Johnson, an old friend of mine going back quite a number of years. He is a world-renowned Reformed apologist and documentarian, and today we're going to celebrate the 20th anniversary of a documentary that has been used of God for 20 years to bring people into a much deeper understanding of the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as Calvinism and Reformed theology, even has brought many, by the grace of God, to fully embrace these doctrines, who at one time were hostile toward them.

I'm discussing specifically the documentary titled Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, brother. I do appreciate it, sir. I can't believe it's been 20 years.

Yeah, that did fly by like everything seems to be doing, especially the older I get. When you set out to create this documentary, what did you have in your mind that made you believe this was a much-needed documentary to add to all of the resources that Calvinists already had in their arsenal in order to better explain these glorious truths that we know and love to others?

What was the compelling factor in your mind?

All right, let me do this. Let me go back to when I came to Christ. I want to mention that I did not have what you would call a traumatic testimony. It was kind of goofy if you actually think about it.

Tracy and I had been married for about two years, and we had our first son, our oldest son. And I was upstairs in his bedroom kind of playing with him. It was probably 6, 630 at night. And Tracy was downstairs in the kitchen making dinner.

And I can remember my mom used to make me go to church when I was a little kid. I hated it. I didn't want to go to church. I want to watch cartoons or go out and play with my friends. I didn't want to go to church.

But she made me go, and so I would begrudgingly. And I can remember one time hearing a pastor or a preacher at that church saying, fathers, if your children go to hell and they never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in your home, you're going to be partially responsible.

And I can remember him sitting there playing with this little baby. He was probably like a month old. He wasn't even that old. And all of a sudden, those words came rushing back to my mind. I hadn't thought of them in years because I wasn't a great sinner.

I mean, I, my pursuits were beer and girls. That was it. I mean, I wasn't a bad kid. I never got arrested. I didn't do drugs, but I liked beer and girls. And that's all I did. And all of a sudden, these words come rushing back to me.

And I can remember praying at that moment, father, I don't know how to be a dad, help me. And I went downstairs and I told Tracy about it. And, you know, she was like, oh, that's so sweet. White picket fence, PTA, you know, going to church, things like that.

It was just a perfect little nuclear family. But after about three weeks, she realized I was serious. Now, I don't want you to get me wrong. Tracy was a CNA Christian, her family, just like mine, Christmas and Easter.

That was it. And she realized that about three weeks later, I was serious. I wasn't joking around. I had read the whole New Testament and probably a third of the Old Testament, and I couldn't get enough of the word of God.

And we had, my parents had gone to a Pentecostal charismatic church. So we started going to a Pentecostal church because that was all I knew. And we went there for a while. And I mean, the pastor is a good guy.

I still talk to him periodically. And the people of the church were good. But I found a passage or I came across a passage in Philippians 2 .13, where Paul is talking and he says, and you being dead in your sins and trespasses, have he quickened us all together, having forgiven you all of your sins, right?

And I can remember sitting there thinking, because up until that point, I believed if you sinned and you died in your sins, that's what the church that I went to taught, if you died in your sins, you were going to go to hell.

And I can remember a thought hit my mind, because that was in the past tense, having forgiven you. And all of a sudden, it hit my mind, how many of my sins were in the future when Christ died? And it was like, all of a sudden, all these passages fell in my head.

And I went to tell the pastor how I was excited, you know. And I went over to his house, and he was sitting at his desk, and he had his arms folded. And I was sitting there explaining it to him. And I thought he'd excited too.

And he said, you know, you sound like a Baptist. And about a month later, I was. So I had gone to this Baptist church. The pastor was a really good guy. He and I became very fast friends. We remained friends up until his death.

And I will never forget, he went to Southwestern Seminary. And I can remember, we were up in Chattanooga, and we stopped at a Crystal's for lunch. And I thought I would ask him, because I didn't want to sound ignorant.

What had happened is, I was at a general, because at that time, I served with a ministry called Watchman Fellowship. They were a counter-cult ministry. And I had done a lot of stuff, studying things out.

And we were at this national conference for Watchman Fellowship in Birmingham, Alabama. And what they did was, they put up staff with different people. The guy who headed the Alabama office, Craig Branch, they put us up at members or elders of his church.

And he went to Briarwood Presbyterian, Briarwood PCA. And I was put up at the house of this guy named Louis Henderson. Now, funny enough, Louis had just had a hernia operation. So Louis was, he was pretty incapacitated.

All he could do was sit in his easy chair and pretty much wait for me to come back. And then he wanted to discuss theology all night. Well, I like discussing theology. So, and Louis and I hit it off real good.

And it's about the third night, he asked me if I believed in total depravity. And I didn't know what total depravity was, but it sounded like something I should believe in. So I said, yes. And anyway, fast forward a couple of weeks, Larry and I are in Chattanooga at that Crystal's.

And I said to him, Larry, what does total depravity mean? And Larry said to me, oh, that's that Calvinistic doctrine that believes that God, there are some people that want nothing to do with the kingdom of God, but God drives them kicking and screaming into the gospel.

And there are other people that want to get in, but God won't let them. That's a doctrine of the devil. You don't want to believe in that. And yeah, Louis was fine with me. That was a good enough answer.

I am not kidding you. Larry and I, that same day, got back to the church and we went in his office and sitting on the desk were two copies of a book called Southern Baptist and the Doctrine of Election.

And I thought it was a joke. And they were in cellophane. They had never been opened. And I'll tell you a little story about that. And I said to Larry, what are these? And he goes, I don't know. And I said, would you mind if I take one?

And he goes, no, go ahead. So I took it and I went home and about noon 30 at night, my phone rang and it was Larry. And he said, Hey, are you reading that book? And I said, yeah, I'm about two thirds of the way through it.

And he goes, well, I'm about halfway through it. And I go, what do you think? And he said, you tell me. And I said, I asked first brother. And he said, I think I'm a Calvinist. I said, me too. Now I tell you that story because years later after Amazing Grace came out, the guy that wrote that book, Robert Self called up and wanted to get a copy of Amazing Grace.

And he told me his name when I said, wait a minute, are you the same Robert Self that wrote that book Southern Baptist and the Doctrine of Election? And the guy goes, yeah, that was me. And I told him that story.

And we both had a laugh over it because they had sent out one copy to every Southern Baptist church and somehow our church got two. And we just both thought it was funny because of God's providence, he sent us two.

And so anyway, I wasn't a Calvinist right away. I was probably progressed. You know, three-point Calvinist, four-point Calvinist before I finally came along to all five points. And let me say this, I don't mean this to be insulting to anybody, but if you do not believe in all five points, then you are an inconsistent Arminian.

There is no such thing as a four-point Calvinist. If you don't believe in all points, then you don't believe in any of them. And I know people may object to that, but it is the truth because I can destroy the whole system if you destroy all four points.

You mean all five points? Yeah. All five points. You have to be all five points. Yeah. You've been saying four. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. You have to be all five points. My bad. I wish I could blame it on not enough coffee, but I got coffee right here.

Anyway, so here I am. It's probably Tracy and I, we have lived in Georgia. We move back down to Florida, and I start going to a Presbyterian church there, a PCA church, and I won't get into all of that, but I can remember one time, and let me just say this because I thought this was a great quote, because what happened is, after I read that book by Robert Self, I started reading a lot of Spurgeon sermons, or Ralph Self, I'm sorry.

No, no. It's Robert Self. You're right.

It is Robert Self.

And just to let you know, he was an interim—I think that's the correct word I'm looking for—he was an interim pastor at the church where I was a member on Long Island while we were looking for a permanent replacement for the pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick.

So I've known Bob Self for years.

Yeah. How long ago was that?

That would have been, I think, the, I don't know, somewhere around 2010.

Yeah, that was probably about the time I spoke with him. But anyway, so I was going to tell you the Spurgeon quote. Spurgeon said, to admit yourself wrong yesterday proves yourself wiser today. And I thought that was such a great quote that I can remember praying, Lord, never let me be afraid to say I was wrong.

Amen.

You know, so that is one of the things. Well, come forward. I was a Calvinist during the 1990s, of course, and Eric Holmberg and I had become friends in 1990. And so, yeah, we were friends, and I'm talking about I went to his house, he went to my house, we went on vacation together.

And about 1997, I came up with this idea of doing a documentary because Eric had already done numerous documentaries. And I thought Eric was a very good communicator. And Eric kind of did the, yeah, that's fine, you write it.

Well, I didn't think I was worthy to write something like that. So, it was kind of put on the back burner. And then around 2002, I really got this, sorry for all the Mormons out there, I got this burning in the bosom to do it, you know.

And I called up Eric because I actually had two friends at that time who were documentarians, Brian Barkley from New Liberty Video. And he did a lot of videos. He did an excellent one on the history of the Bible called The Forbidden Book, and then Eric Holmberg.

But I actually, Brian wasn't a narrator. But anyway, I said to Eric, you know, I really think we should do something on Calvinism. And Eric was like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. Maybe we should. And then probably three months later, he called me back and he said, you know what, I believe you're right.

Let's do it. And I said, hey, I've got a bunch of churches that will give $1 ,000 to help pay the cost of production and everything. I didn't take any money into production. In fact, I gave money, you know.

And I said, I got a bunch of churches that will do it. And he said, you know, that's good. Now, let me tell you this, because this happened also. I was sitting there thinking about the questions that we needed to ask the people that we're going to interview, because we identified the interviews, or the interviewees, I'm sorry.

And I've got all of them in my church. We went to a hotel that had breakfasts. And on both of them, all breakfasts, we had a big banquet. And we were going to go over the questions that needed to be asked.

And I seriously thought this would be like maybe a 45 minute video. But I can remember this one guy kept saying, his name was Keith Blankenship. We're going to open up more doors and leave questions unanswered if we do it for 45 minutes.

And I said, you know, we're right. And we came up with 52 questions. And I thought, man, that's a lot. And just a side note here. When I interviewed Dr. Gene James Kennedy, I thought he might give us 15 minutes.

And so I thought I'm just going to ask him the questions on evangelism, which was at the end of the list. And Dr. Kennedy, because I had given him the questions before him, probably a month before him.

And we got into the room, we started filming, and he goes, hey, why don't you ask me question number one? And I said, well, I didn't think you would have time to answer those. That sweet man gave us two and a half hours answering all those questions.

And just a real funny note, we're down to like the last three, and he looks at his watch and he goes, uh oh, I'm in trouble. And I'm like, why? And he goes, because it was five o 'clock on a Friday. And he goes, I'm supposed to go to dinner at 5 .30 with my wife and a bunch of friends.

And he hadn't even gone home to shower or shave or anything. So I asked him those three questions real fast, and then he sprinted out the door. Unfortunately, like, what was it? Probably five years later, he had that massive heart attack.

And I was talking with one of the elders in this church, and he said he had taken him someplace. I don't remember where. And Dr. Kennedy and him were driving by a rich Presbyterian, and Dr. Kennedy said to him, hey, that's a nice looking church.

He didn't even recognize it. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. In fact, I was just having a conversation with one of the speakers on your documentary today, this afternoon, Dr. Joe Moorcraft. Dr. Moorcraft is a good guy.

Yes. Currently pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia. And he told me, I had always known that Dr. Kennedy died of a heart attack, but I did not know the more frightening details of this.

But he had a pacemaker, and he was heating up coffee in a microwave, and the microwave interacted with the pacemaker,.

Which gave him the heart attack. Oh, really? Yeah. Really? I didn't know that either. You know, I didn't know that either. I knew he had had a heart attack, and I went to non-seminary. I went to non-seminary because of Dr. Carol Bister and Dr. D. James Kennedy.

Yeah. And that was the reason I went there. So, I knew a lot of their ministers and their head of their Christian school and all that. And so, I knew a lot of things that were going on. But supposedly, after he had the heart attack, he couldn't remember much.

Right. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break right now. If anybody wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005. One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely thanked since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight-volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener,.

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We can be reached at SecureCommGroup .com. That's SecureCommGroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven,.

An Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island. I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother Chris Arnzen in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.

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Jerry, if you could please remind our listeners the wonderful experience you had purchasing your beautiful wife, Tracy, a diamond ring for her.

Birthday from royaldiadem .com. Yeah. You know, every year, it seems like, I forget her birthday is coming up, and then I'll look at the calendar, I'll go, oh no, her birthday's three days away, and that's what happened this time.

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She sent me via email some of the pieces that they had, and I picked one out, and I got Tracy's ring size kind of underhandedly, and I emailed her back, and she got it sized, and I had it before her birthday.

Tracy just loved it. So, anyway, it was a very good experience. I couldn't recommend them any higher.

Well, don't forget the website, folks, royaldiadem .com, and we hope that you contact them today for all your Christmas jewelry needs. Don't forget to mention Chris Armsend of Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

We're now back with Jerry Johnson, one of the creators of the world-renowned, highly acclaimed documentary, Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. This is a two-part, two-DVD set that contains over four hours of content, and it features such a prominent and gifted and brilliant defenders of the doctrines of Calvinism, including the late R .C. Sproul, Walter Bowie, Tom Nettles, and the late Ken Talbot, and the late Walt Chantry, who at one time was the pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania for 40 years.

He was pastoring there. But the documentary is hosted and narrated by Eric Holmberg, and I think it is very important that we, in full disclosure, mention something that a listener, Branton Burleson, lead pastor at Grace Baptist Church of West Asheville, North Carolina, had mentioned to me.

I already knew this, and so obviously does Jerry Johnson, that Eric Holmberg has sadly and tragically converted to Roman Catholicism. Yes, thank you, Pastor Branton, for that information, but we did already know that, and I am so thrilled to hear that you were able to communicate with us, even though that the Asheville, North Carolina area was one of the hardest-hit areas during the recent flooding that occurred after the hurricane.

I am not sure how badly West Asheville was hit, but Asheville was certainly one of the targets of the hurricane. If you would like to come on the program at some point, Pastor Burleson, to give us any kind of testimony of what you and fellow congregation experienced during that time, get in contact with me, and we can discuss having you on the show.

But if you could, Jerry, tell us why you think that even though the host, the narrator, Eric Holmberg, of this wonderful documentary, even though he has abandoned the precious truths that he emphatically and strongly and powerfully advocated during the four hours of content on this documentary, he's abandoned it all and now vehemently opposes it and then rejects it.

Why is this documentary still something that should be put into use by sovereign grace-believing pastors and congregation members.

Alike? All right, well, let me say this. Right now, you can watch it for free on either Rumble or YouTube, all right? So, it's not in a DVD format anymore. It's digital, and all you have to do is put in Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, either in Rumble or YouTube, and it'll come up, and you can watch it there.

So, let me, if you don't mind, before I answer that question, because I do want to answer it, but I wanted to make one comment about Dr. Kennedy, because I would send him the chapters whenever anything was done, I'd send him the one on the history.

I will honestly say he didn't make any comment on that. He just wrote me back and said, oh, this is good. But on the one on total depravity, he wrote back and he said, that is the best explanation of total depravity I've ever read.

And I thought that was great that he would say that. Now, he never said it about any of the other chapters, but he said that about total depravity. So, I do want to let people know, I write more like a technical journal, and Eric wrote more of a journey, if you will.

And so, that's where I believed our streak came in. We used to say I was the left brain and Eric was the right brain, and together we made one brain. And Eric would send me back what I had written after he had rewritten it, and I was like, wow, that is really good, because he took you on a journey.

Eric does have his degree in English, and he's a very good writer and also a very good speaker. Now, to address the latter part, what the listener or the viewer will get in Amazing Grace is kind of my journey, all right, how I had to go through everything and deal with it.

There really wasn't a lot of Eric-isms in there, that's what I call them. There were a few, but the theology is pretty much what I struggled with, and of course, it's classic Reformational theology, pretty much is what it is.

So, even though Eric has gone into the Eastern Roman Catholic Church, I mean, it's not his necessarily as much as it is my journey. So, I wanted to let your listeners know that. It is unfortunate that Eric went into the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Roman Catholic Church.

He had been blown around ever since I knew him by just about every window of doctrine. So, he had stayed Reformed for a long time. He had actually been a member of Dr.

George Graham's church. He was also featured in the documentary.

Yes, he is, and I haven't talked to George about him going into the Eastern Roman Catholic Church, or I should say Eastern Catholic Church, because even though they are under the authority of Rome, they kind of do their own thing, if you will.

Yes, they are. The Eastern Right Catholic Church, I've heard them described as, they do things in a unique way, and they are not to be confused with Eastern Orthodox. Like, I initially, when I heard about Eric's conversion….

So did I, brother. Yeah, so did I. But I will tell you, the last time I talked to Eric, because I didn't want to get into it with him, because, you know, I just didn't want to get into it with him. He knows better.

But his rationale, if I may, and like I said, Eric has been…. I've known Eric beyond he defended Kenneth Copeland. I know he defended Kenneth Hagan in the past. He was part, or he was Maranatha Campus Ministries International when he was young.

The founders of that, Rose and Bob Weiner, I believe is their name, they went into the United Pentecostal Church International, which was Jesus only, and although Eric never went into that, he did defend them.

And so, there were little signs that, you know, I noticed throughout the years that I saw, and when he became Reformed, I hoped he was going to settle down, but he was Reformed for about 20 years, and that is really the longest I ever knew him to be in one denomination.

But what Eric said to me on the phone was, we were talking, and I love John Chrysostom. I think he's great, but I don't believe he's infallible. And you had sent me that quote by him, and I don't know if you remember it.

I'll say it for your listeners, because I love that quote, but John Chrysostom said, if you knew how quickly people would forget about you after you died, you wouldn't seek in this life to please anybody but God.

And I mean, John, I love it. I put a quote that I had read by R .C. Sproul years ago, and I thought it was good. I'm going to try to quote it here, but I'm probably going to slaughter it, so forgive me, but you'll get the gist of it.

Church history is not a rule, but it is a guide. If you come upon an interpretation of Scripture that has escaped the notice of every other single Christian for 2 ,000 years or has been championed by universally recognized heretics, then the chances are pretty good that you had better abandon your interpretation.

So, I put that in the Amazing Grace documentary, and Eric, we were talking, last time we talked, he said to me, a lot of these guys went to their death for what they believe. And that's great. I mean, it's not great.

I'm sorry they died, but what I'm saying is, a lot of people went to their death. There were even heretics that went to their death. And the thing is, the Scriptures are our rule, not church history, not the leaders of the church.

And this is something that has always bothered me. Can you imagine a Christian, a new Christian, one week old, and you're taking advice from him on the interpretation of Scripture? It seems to me that the longer the church goes on, the more that they will develop and become knowledgeable.

Not a brand new baby Christian. And I look at church history like that. You have your early church fathers, but they were wrong about many things. Now, I'm not saying they weren't Christians. I'm just saying we've got to make sure and measure.

I've heard it said that Luther believed in Mary's perpetual virginity. Well, the thing is, that's great that Martin Luther believed it, but the Scriptures never say that, ever. So, he has no proof. It was probably a cultural thing because everybody believed that at the time.

So, I'm sure Martin Luther, that was the issue he wasn't dealing with at the time.

Yes, and even John Calvin said that was an area he did not care to venture into.