The Irrefutable Christian Message

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Well, I'm glad, I'm honored, honored, very, very honored to be here and grateful to be here amongst these men and women.

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You guys, all that you guys are doing here is just very, very important work and a big answer to prayer to actually see all of this taking place right now in front of us.

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Pastor Luke and I have been here, I don't know, three or four times, so we've seen it from the very, very beginning to now where it's at and I am grateful to God for all that's taking place right in front of us.

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So I figured you have probably already gotten by this point most of the important foundational things in terms of Christian worldview,

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Christ as the center, as the principium, the Word of God is the very foundation of all knowledge of metaphysical claims, ethical claims, all those things.

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And I don't think I could do better than the men that have gone before me. But I thought in terms of applied apologetics, we talk about, okay, now how do we actually rush into the world with this, right?

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It's one thing to think about it theoretically, Jesus is the center, God's Word is the principium,

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God's Word is the reference point of all claims, all questions, all knowledge, it's right there at the center.

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But the question is now, how do I go about actually applying that when I come into conflict with the

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Mormon or the Jehovah's Witness or with the radical atheist of today or the person who is propagating abortion in the culture around about us?

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So I thought let's spend more time today, of course, talking about foundational things, but actually getting into how do we do this, how do we do it on the street, how do we apply it?

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Because I think one of the things we want to avoid, and this happens often when we talk about presuppositional apologetics, when we talk about arguing transcendentally for the truth claims of the

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Christian worldview, what happens is someone will listen to, say, Dr. Greg Bonson and his debate with Gordon Stein or Edward Tabash or the rest, and you will hear such an amazing refutation of unbelief that you'll be tempted to memorize those slam dunks, right?

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And that's what happens a lot with presuppositional apologetics, and really across the board with all apologetics, but I think presuppositional apologetics is so devastating to unbelief that it becomes very tempting just to memorize a zinger, right?

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Like a mic drop or a hashtag, right? Memorize that and I win. Like for example, a good way to illustrate this, and let's just make this conversational for now, is a very strong answer to unbelief is by what standard?

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Now, I want to say this, memorize that and use it, right? I'm not saying, like, don't use the hashtags, don't use the mic drops, because sometimes it's necessary to do so.

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Sometimes you just need to take somebody's legs off, right? And you need to do it in a way so you can show them, hey, look, you fell down, now here, take my hand and come to Jesus, right?

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You need to be able to have those moments, and so by what standard is an excellent refutation, right?

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Unbeliever challenges your worldview, all you need to say is by what standard?

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You believe that your ancestors were fish, and you're complaining about what my

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God does in scripture. I mean, you think that, you know, you crawled out of the soup and all you are is protoplasm walking around on the surface of a cosmos that does not care about you, and you're complaining about the

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Christian worldview lacking reason or integrity and all the rest. You believe that you're just stuff bing -banging on the surface of the cosmos, right?

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Those are good things to say to unbelievers, make sure that you do, but in terms of thinking critically and propagating the

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Christian worldview and the gospel and the truth claims of Christ, we need to go beyond just the zingers, the mic drops, and the hashtags.

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You need to be able to think critically as a Christian when you're engaging with somebody, say that you don't even really know where they're coming from.

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They don't walk up to you with a sign on their chest saying, hi, naturalistic materialist right here, right?

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Hello, I'm an agnostic and of the proper form of this era, you know, whatever the case may be.

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You don't know always what you're dealing with, but if you understand the word of God as the foundation,

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Christ as the center of all knowledge claims, then no matter who you are engaging with, within really a few minutes, you can sort of gauge where they're at, what their perspective is in terms of how they know what they know, what they're claiming about the world or salvation or whatever, and you're trying to now move through that and navigate your way to scripture in a way that'll actually help them where they're at.

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So if you're talking to the Mormon, you need to know how to actually reference the word of God against the

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Mormon worldview. If you're talking to the Jehovah's Witness, how do I reference the word of God in terms of engaging with the

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Watchtower's worldview, whatever it may be at the moment, or atheism, or if you're engaging in the area of abortion, you need to be able to say, how do

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I reference the word of God in this case, okay? So if we talk about 1

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Peter 3 .15, have you heard that a lot this week? Yes? Good. You tired of it now?

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Okay. You're like, I got it, right? Okay. Now, so we know that when we think about that particular text, it is vital to understand.

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Christ is set apart as Lord, right? He's Lord, he's the center, he's the reference point.

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We don't engage in the defense of the Christian faith from a position of neutrality.

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We do it from a position of Christ is Lord, he is King, he's the center. We do it with gentleness and we do it with reverence.

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We do it with respect. We have that down. Yes? Amen? Good. Very important. It's vital.

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I don't think we can get off the ground biblically, gospel -centered, or appropriately and effectively without having that at the center.

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I imagine at this point in the week, we're there now. Now we need to answer these questions, and I think there's a good way to do this, and you have to forgive me, guys,

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I just, I don't know if you guys heard, I've had seizures lately, really weird, just started having seizures at 41 years old, which is really odd.

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So you have to give me a moment here, like in terms of thoughts, if they go off, and as they're talking about like other things that make no sense, just sort of wave me down.

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Just sometimes the mechanics are glitching. Good? Yes? Okay. All right. Just wait, just throw something at me.

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Throw some naan bread my way, okay? So we talk about foundational things.

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This is really, really important. I don't think there's a better way to do this than how Dr. Greg Bonson did it in his book,

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Presuppositional Apologetics. How many of you guys have that book? Okay, keep your hand up real fast, okay? Presuppositional Apologetics by Dr.

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Greg Bonson, very good. Now hands down, everyone else, put your hand up if you don't have it. Raise your hand up, okay? You will buy this book, yes?

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Okay, if you put your hand up, you've committed. Good? Yes? It's a very light read, yes.

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Very important book. You need to have that in your library, and it is not just about apologetics.

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It is not simply about apologetics. Understand that.

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Presuppositional Apologetics by Dr. Greg Bonson I think is a vitally important work to get into your library and into your heart and your mind as a

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Christian in terms of a platform by which you will view everything else.

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And what it really is is it's grounding us as believers in the word of God as the reference point.

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Now I think theoretically we'll say as Christians, I buy that. Like when I came to Jesus, that's where I was.

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I was submitting to his lordship, I was turning from sin, I was trusting in Jesus. I wanted Christ. He's the boss.

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He's the king. He's master. I got it. I think theoretically Christians are all there, at least we're supposed to be, amen, yes?

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The problem is, is an actual application of those truths. Like when we say as Christians, and it's on t -shirts, by the way, we do that really poorly as Christians.

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We make awful t -shirts, amen, yes? You can say that, okay. We have t -shirts that say King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

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We just say it as bumper stickers and on t -shirts, right? That's just what we say. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

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We believe that. We profess to that. We confess to that. However, we don't always apply that consistently.

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King of Kings today, do you believe that? Confessionally you do.

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Yes, Jesus is reigning now. He's on his throne now. He's in the right hand of the Father, putting all of his enemies under his feet. But do we act like that in a legislature in Canada?

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Really? I mean, think about it. Do we see Christians in the legislature in Canada, like actually addressing these issues from the perspective that Jesus is actually the king over Canada today?

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Do we? No. Now, by the way, don't feel bad. I'm going to get me too, right? You don't see in the United States either very consistently.

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You don't see Christians engaging in the realm of the political realm or legislative matters actually looking like they believe that, that Jesus right now rules and reigns as king over these

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United States of America. You don't see that consistently coming out in application. Now, what I want to argue is that we can say theoretically, we believe all these things about the

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Lordship of Jesus, that he's the center of all knowledge, that he's the grounding of all these things, but we don't always actually apply that consistently.

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And I think presuppositional apologetics by Dr. Greg Bonson will really, really help you along those lines in terms of thinking about all of life consistently as a

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Christian, whether it's art, whether it's science, whether it's logic, whether it's arithmetic, whether it's ethical questions, whatever the case may be, we need to start thinking like Christians.

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And I think Dr. Greg Bonson does a wonderful job at the beginning of that book, and I just wanted to at least give this to you now, of talking about the

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Lordship of Jesus Christ in three areas that are vital, that are vital.

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When we talk about going out there and engaging the world apologetically in whatever realm, this needs to be foundational.

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And he does it in three ways. Number one, he says Christ is metaphysically Lord, metaphysically

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Lord. And you see that in John 1, verses 1 -3,

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Colossians 1, verse 16, Romans 11, 36, 1

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Corinthians 8, 6. What do we mean by Christ is metaphysically Lord? Jesus is the creator of all things, yes?

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He created everything in existence. He has a pre -existence, an archaean hologos, Christ has always existed.

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He was prosantheon, toward the Father, face -to -face with the Father, an intimate relationship with the

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Father from all eternity, and he was by very nature God.

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Jesus is God. He is the creator of all things, everything in existence.

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There is nothing ultimately before him or after him. He is God, eternal, forever.

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Now John chapter 1 teaches Jesus created everything. He sustains everything.

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He carries everything along to its intended destination according to Hebrews chapter 1.

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So when we talk about creation itself, Jesus is Lord over creation. He's Lord over these trees, over this grass, over the dirt, over you and me, all of ourselves and atoms, everything that actually makes up all of existence.

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Jesus is king over it, creator of it, he sustains it, yes?

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Therefore, science is possible. You see, it's only with the

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Christian worldview that you get science. How do you like them apples? We live in a world today that actually pooh -poohs the

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Christian worldview, and people insult Christians as unintelligent, anti -intellectual, and all the rest, when really it's the

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Christian worldview that gave the world the pop in modern science and technology and all the rest.

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I think it's really because Christians have actually stepped away from culture and engaging culture with the Word of God and the

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Lordship of Jesus Christ that we've gotten to a place where the culture sees us as anti -intellectual, because we don't engage the culture, because we disengage, because we act like Christianity is about heavenly things and not earthly things, when really the biblical worldview is it's everything.

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There's nothing outside the realm and power and control and authority of Jesus Christ.

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But Jesus is creator of all things. He's metaphysically Lord. He's also ethically Lord, second point.

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He is ethically Lord, and that is brought out by Dr. Bonson with some verses,

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I'm just feeding you with what he has there as a foundation, so you can hopefully go and read these later. Psalm 145, 17,

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Romans 7, 12, Matthew 5, 17 through 20.

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Just a couple of verses there in terms of Christ as ethically Lord. Now here's what you have to grab hold of is because we have

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Jesus as metaphysical Lord, he's the creator of all things and the sustainer of all things, we actually have a grounding and a basis to understand humanity.

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We have a grounding and a basis now to understand God's unchanging character, which he's revealed to us, which gives us a grounding of ethics.

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Now if I'm speaking too fast or going too far ahead for the moment, just basically put it this way.

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Because I now have the revelation of God and his character, I know what's right. I know what's true.

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I know what's objectively right and ethical because I have the actual character of God on display before me in history.

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I actually have something to touch. I have a reference point to say this is true, this is lovely, this is good, this is ethical.

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How do I know? Because the very standard of what is righteous and just and pure and holy has actually stepped into history, walked among us, but God has given us revelation of his own character over time.

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He stepped down and he's spoken into history. I may as a creature not comprehend things.

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I may have faculties of reasoning that are actually poor.

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That doesn't mean though, however, that I don't have a God that can step down into history who does have the power to reach out and touch me and speak to me and speak with clarity about what is true and what is just, what is good, what is pure, what is holy, what is lovely.

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Here's the thing. Listen, we live in a day where there is so much confusion about what is ethical.

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We always have since the beginning of time. Of course, since the fall, it has been nonstop ethical confusion.

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However, we do live in a time in the West that is the downgrade. After so much

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Christian gospel -centered influence that actually was transformative across the

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West, we now have hit a stage where we are going into the downgrade, into the slide because of the lack of Christian witness.

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We have to actually start looking at the church to say, what role do we have in this?

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How come we've been slipping? How come, as Andrew said earlier, I loved what he said, how come we can have parts of cities and towns in this country and in mine, a nation in mine, where we actually have megachurches growing, expanding in numbers by the thousands in a city, right?

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These churches getting bigger and bigger buildings and more and more butts in the seats, and yet the culture around them is just slipping off into darkness.

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We don't know if a boy is a boy or a girl is a girl any longer. We don't even understand that. We don't know if that's true, right?

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The people who actually say, like, you know, use the pronoun, use a proper pronoun, right? They and their, he and she is offensive.

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Why? Because I haven't disclosed to you what I identify as. It's like, bro,

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I can see what you are. I see, like, it's right in front of me, you are so confused.

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Why? Because you don't have God's word as a basis. You don't have his revelation. You don't have a revelation of his character.

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You don't have his revelation in terms of what's true around us. And so because of that, there's so much confusion.

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And I think because as Christians, we don't speak into the culture what is true, we lose.

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We lose the ability to speak in a meaningful way about ethics to the world at all, because we are trying to do it from a position of neutrality apart from the revelation of God's own character.

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Stand on God's character and I can actually define what's true. Stand on God's word and his revelation and I can say what's righteous, what is just, what is pure, what is holy, what is lovely.

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So Christ is ethically Lord. Next, Christ is epistemologically

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Lord. Epistemologically, big word. What's it mean? How do you know?

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People make knowledge claims all the time. All the time. You make it in public schools.

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People make knowledge claims constantly. People make knowledge claims at home.

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When you were raised as a kid, you didn't think about it all the time, but epistemology was happening all the time in your house.

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Don't do that. Why? There's got to be a reason why.

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Why shouldn't I do this? Why shouldn't I do that? Why shouldn't I go out and do this activity? Why shouldn't I hang out with this person?

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Why shouldn't I hang around with this crew of people, right? Your parents are telling you why not.

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Well, they're making claims, knowledge claims about what's actually true. People do it all the time in politics, in legislation.

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People are dealing in epistemology all the time. We may not like the discussion.

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We may not like the word as Christians. We might want to bring the discussion a little bit lower down here so people can grab it off the shelf, but the truth is is people are making epistemological claims constantly.

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If you go to the gas station, epistemology is happening there. Ethical claims are happening there.

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These are things that really matter in the world, and they matter a great deal. Christ is epistemologically

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Lord. Colossians 2 .3. Romans 11 .33. Psalm 147 .5.

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This is recorded so you guys can get it later if you guys miss the verses. Acts, well,

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I'll skip that one. Ezekiel 11 .5. Now, let me just give you this as a grounding.

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Christ is epistemologically Lord. Without Christ, you can't know anything. You have no certainty about anything.

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You can't make any knowledge claims in any meaningful way without Christ, without the biblical worldview.

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A lot of times people have a hard time when you think about, like, transcendental arguments for the existence of God or presuppositional apologetics.

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So you're saying start with Jesus? Like, you have to start with God's Word? Like, that's the very reference point. You start there to get anywhere else?

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Yes. Absolutely. Start with Christ. And here's, I think, one of the fundamental reasons why.

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If you don't start with God's revelation, His self -disclosure, His self -attesting self -disclosure, you can't make a meaningful appeal to logic, to science, to reason, to anything.

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As a matter of fact, I would say to the Christian, why wouldn't you want to start with Jesus? Because apart from Him, you get none of these things.

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You don't get appeals to evidence. You don't get meaningful appeals to science. You don't get meaningful appeals to arithmetics.

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You don't get meaningful appeals to logic or ethics or anything apart from Jesus. He is the very grounding.

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The fool says in his heart, there is no God. The fool says in his heart, there is no

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God. Not the brilliant philosopher, the amazing mathematician. The fool says in his heart, there is no

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God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. You want knowledge?

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You want wisdom? You want to know something, truly know it? It starts with reverent submission and awe before God.

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Christ is epistemologically Lord. Now, Jesus says something. I want to just go to this verse here in terms of a good place to think about this.

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Because I'm sure you've gotten so much this week in terms of particular verses and grounding this.

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But I want you to see it, I think, in one of my favorite ways to illustrate. And that's Matthew chapter 7. Matthew chapter 7, because this is how

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I like to think about it. Visualize it. In Matthew chapter 7, verse 24,

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Jesus makes a pretty powerful claim, epistemologically speaking.

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He says, everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

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And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house. But it did not fall because it had been founded on the rock.

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And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house in the sand.

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And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house.

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And it fell and great was the fall of it. Now listen, watch.

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Their response to Jesus giving them this illustration. And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching.

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Listen why. For he was teaching them as one who had authority and not as their scribes.

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So they caught the difference between Jesus' teaching and the teaching of the scribes and the

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Pharisees and the religious leaders. They heard in Jesus his teaching with authority.

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You see, there were moments in Jesus' ministry, of course, like you can look at Matthew 19, where Jesus is dealing with a controversy in his day that does have meaning in our day.

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And it was a controversy about divorce, marriage. And it was about the

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Hillelite marriage clause and the Shammayite marriage controversy.

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It's a controversy between two schools of thought about marriage. Do we allow divorce for biblical reasons that are illustrated in Scripture?

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Or can we have divorce for any cause as long as there's a certificate of divorce?

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So it was really a debate between two schools. The school of Hillel, Rabbi Hillel, or the school of Rabbi Shammay.

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Now when Jesus actually deals with a conflict like that, how does he handle it? Matthew 19.

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He goes back to the Word of God. So the grounding for Jesus is always the reference point of God's revelation.

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So how does he deal with a controversy that's actually a legislative controversy in the day?

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It's also a religious one. But Jesus says, you go back to the Word of God, what does God say? Man shall leave his father and his mother and what?

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Cling to his wife, become one flesh. And so Jesus essentially sides there with the

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Shammayite school that you have to have ultimately biblical grounds, right?

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Not just any cause. But he goes to the Word of God. So there were times where Jesus does appeal to the

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Word of God and he goes to the reference point of Scripture and says, what does the Scripture say? God's revelation is the grounding of how to handle this conflict.

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But there were other moments where Jesus just appeals to his own authority as God in the flesh.

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If he's not appealing to the words of the Father, if he's not appealing to the words of Scripture already given and disclosed in history, he's appealing to his own words and calling them the words of God, comparing them to the words of God.

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Jesus appeals to his own authority. And they heard it. They said, he teaches as one having what?

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Authority and not as the scribes. So in terms of when this moment where Jesus gives him this picture of two people building houses, one on a rock and one on the sand, he says, if you're over here not on the rock of my word, revelation of himself, if you don't have

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Christ, if that's not there, Jesus says you're on sinking sand, period. So watch.

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What I want to encourage you to see is this. Believe that. That's it.

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You want to say, like, how do you apply apologetic methodology? Believe that. Believe it.

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Believe it when you come into conflict with the very sophisticated erudite atheist.

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Believe it when you come into conflict with the very intellectual Mormon scholar who's trying to defend

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Joseph Smith's many different first vision accounts. Believe that the word of God is authoritative.

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And believe that the unbeliever is on sinking sand. And look for it.

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If you want to say, like, well, what are you doing, Pastor Jeff? I want you to know I'm not special. I am not powerful. I am not mighty.

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I am just a Christian who believes this book. And I try to go out and get in fights. That's it.

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I want to try to create godly controversy. I think if you look in the book of Acts, not surrounding myself around the gospel, if you look in the book of Acts, you see the church going out into the public square with the message of the gospel.

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They're going into the place of toughest philosophical debate and discussion. They're going into the place of religious discourse.

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They're going everywhere with the word of God and what's happening because of it. They're taking a beating, and they're leaving rejoicing, praising

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God that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. The apostle Paul, when he comes to Jesus in Acts 9, what happens?

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He takes a beeline as soon as he comes to Christ, right for the synagogue, and does what? Starts arguing with the

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Hellenistic Jews. Doing what? Proving that Jesus is the Messiah, and they loved him for it.

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They loved him. It was so wonderful. They were like, thank you so much, Paul. You are so wonderful. We see the love of Jesus in you.

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You are just such an amazing, special man. No. No, what happened? Right? We have people taking oaths not to eat until this man is dead.

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Right? Evangelical Christians today in the West think that if you go into a culture and people are resistant, there's something wrong with your methodology, bro.

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Why? Because everybody should love you. Right? We're Christians. Everybody should love our message.

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That's not what you see in the book of Acts. You see godly controversy and troublemaking with the gospel, and you need to go into a culture with the truth, willing to take a beating for Jesus.

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Right? Take a beating for Jesus with the truth of the gospel. Not because of your behavior. If you're taking a beating for Jesus because of your behavior, that's on you.

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You need to repent. You need to make sure you get there right with the Lord. But if you're taking a beating in your culture because you're preaching the truth, then praise

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God. Glory to God. You know what Acts 9 says? Paul preaches the gospel, argues with the Jews.

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Hellenistic Jews want him dead. Like, that was the result. It says the church was built up. They experienced peace.

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It was multiplied right on. It's growing. And it says some people wanted him dead. Right? So all those things are happening.

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Church is built up, experiencing peace. It's multiplying, and some people want him dead. Right? So, yay, success.

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Right? He's being lowered out of windows because he's so good at this. Right? He says,

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I'm beaten times without number. At what point do you stop counting? You're like, I forget how many times

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I've taken a beating for Jesus. That's a lot of beatings for Jesus. Right? A lot. At what point would you stop counting?

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Think about it. He says that he's in danger constantly, in danger from robbers, his own countrymen, false brethren, all that stuff.

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That's a result. So I'm going to say this. In terms of applying this all, applying this all, think about it in terms of faithfulness to the gospel message, start some godly controversy, and stand on this revelation, and watch for them to sink.

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So apply to apologetics. Everything you've been learning the last couple days, and I'm sure you're going to continue to learn at a much deeper level.

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Apply to apologetics is very simple. Watch for them to sink.

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Look for it. And when you see them sinking because they refuse to stand on his revelation in their life, point it out.

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Show them. You're sinking. Do you see it? Do you see it now? You need to be standing on the word of God as a believer, as the reference point.

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Stand on God's revelation. Stand on Christ's authority. Stand on his word. Believe it. It is rock solid, steady.

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I mean, these waves are massive, and you can have tea and biscuits.

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Is that right, Joe? Tea and biscuits. And they're not even moving or sliding because this thing is just pushing through the waves, right?

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It is rock solid. Nothing's happening to this, and it is gorgeous on the ship. And all of a sudden, the unbeliever comes paddling up to you in this rickety old boat that's taken in water, right?

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They've got one oar, and they're splashing around with the other hand. And they look up at your ship. You look over the edge, and they say, hey, your boat is stupid, right?

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And they start just lobbing insults of how dumb your boat is and how ugly it is, and that you should be ashamed to be in such a stupid -looking boat.

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At a certain point, you really have to look down at the little ship that they're in, the little boat, and you have to realize,

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I'm allowed to ignore these insults, right? Like, I'm doing fine. You're taking in water.

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And I think a good biblical apologetic methodology is the twofold apologetic methodology that you're,

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I'm sure, going to learn from Dr. Bonson, from everyone who's teaching you here and any of our lectures we've given,

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Proverbs 26, verses 4 and 5. It says, don't answer the fool according to their folly, or you'll be like them.

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And then there's something right next to it that says, answer the fool according to their folly, lest they be wise in their own conceit, right?

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So don't answer the fool, and then answer the fool. What's that mean? Well, when the person comes up to you in your amazing ship that's not taking in any water, and they're yelling at you about how stupid your boat is, feel free not to stoop down to their level, right?

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Feel free not to pretend neutrality. Don't answer like them. Don't start borrowing capital from their perspective.

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Don't start stepping into their worldview and abandoning Christ and his authority and his word.

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Don't do that. I want to just say this as an aside, just quickly. I think one of the great and dramatic failures of the pro -life movement in my nation, in this one, and internationally is that it adopts the perspective that we should engage in this issue from a perspective of neutrality.

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We should abandon the word of God. We should abandon the kingship and lordship of Jesus Christ. We should abandon the gospel call itself and pretend neutrality to end abortion.

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I have a question. How are you planning on doing that? How do you plan on convincing somebody that what's in the womb is valuable and meaningful and you ought to protect it apart from a biblical worldview and perspective?

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How? How are you going to do it? Like, well, why do we see the pro -life movement failing internationally?

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Because they refuse to stand on God's self -attesting word. They refuse to make it about the gospel.

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They refuse to call it sin. They refuse to call it murder like Jesus would, like Scripture does.

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And so when we think about applying apologetics, we want to think about it in terms of, think about that ship.

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Think about what you're standing on. Think about the sinking sand this guy is over here sinking in. Why do I want to go now stand on their platform?

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Why do I want to go hang out in their house, right? They should be coming into our boat. They should be coming to hang out in our house.

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This is where they're safe. This is where they're grounded. This is where they're not sinking. But there's a second part of applied apologetics, and that's stepping into the opponent's perspective to show them that they're sinking.

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So, for example, it is wise at times to answer the fool according to their folly lest they be wise in their own conceit.

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Step into their boat, grab them by the head, and push their head down. Say, look.

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Look what you're standing on. Look what you're taking in. You're taking in all this water. You're sinking. You're not going to last.

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Why don't you repent of your sins in a hurry and come into my boats, right? Why don't you step into my position?

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Why don't you see where you're at that you are sinking and you are going to be destroyed? See, that is,

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I think, the two -fold apologetic methodology in terms of its being effective. Now, time? What do

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I have? Okay.

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So, I'm going to try to get more time for Q &A. But let's put it this way.

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In terms of thinking about application, stand on the word of God consistently always.

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Maintain fidelity to the biblical worldview and what Christ has said authoritatively in his word over every area of life.

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Assume his lordship and kingship over every discussion. Bring his claims and his authority into conflict with every area that you are referencing.

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And remember this, because you stand on his word, you have a foundation for science.

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They don't. They do not. Quick moment as Pastor Luke was with me when this took place.

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Years ago, we went to Washington, D .C. to the Reason Rally. Interesting name for atheist gathering in Washington, D .C.

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People who believe, many of them, that all that exists is the material universe are having a conference around reason, something that is immaterial, universal, unchanging.

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Interesting, right? So, we get to this Reason Rally and we're having conversations. And this is all up online.

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You can see this. If you just type in Jeff Durbin, atheist and Reason Rally, something like that, it'll come up.

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You'll see them in black and white. One of them is with a homosexual man. And that was really,

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I think, a moving video because we were able to expose the folly of his unbelief and minister to him as an image bearer of God and call him to faith in Christ.

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It was really a powerful moment because he says in the video, he says, there is no

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GD, God, GD, it. Right? That's his shirt. Right? It was worse than most

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Christian T -shirts. That's what his shirt said. So, he's there.

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He's very pompous, very arrogant, very angry. And then all of a sudden, as time goes on, as we're trying to press his perspective and his worldview, he gives up science.

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He gives up all ethics. He gives up reason. And he admits it in the video. He's there at the

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Reason Rally. Reason, reason, reason. And you challenge him as an atheist, give me an answer for how reason is a thing in atheism.

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He's like, well, it's not. It's like, what in the world are you doing here?

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And then he admits in the video. You can go watch it. He admits that he has no foundation for ethics. Right? Nothing is right.

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Nothing is wrong. He says, everything just goes down to zero. Don't you know that? Here he is, and he's complaining about the

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God of the Bible while saying there is no absolute right or wrong. Right? I hate the God of the

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Bible. He's a big meanie, and he's this, and he's that. But there is no right, and there is no wrong. Nor is there any reason or science.

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And you're like, have you stopped to look at your feet lately? Right? Do you know where you're standing?

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And what could take a person and cause them to embrace that kind of folly? What could?

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Sin. Right? Anger. Animosity. Hostility towards God.

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Like, what could take a person and bring them to a place where they will actually say things like, yeah,

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I don't have a basis for science. I don't have a basis for ethics at all. And, yeah, there is no right, and there is no wrong.

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And I don't have a basis for laws of logic either. But there is no GD God. GD it. Right? That is anger.

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That is Romans 1. Right? They are enemies of God. Not neutral towards God.

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They are hostile towards God. And they exchange the truth of God for a lie. Why? Because they don't want to know

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God. They don't want God in their knowledge. They don't want to know Him. They don't want to have any intimacy with God.

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They don't want to be thinking about God. They want nothing to do with God. So they switch Him for something else that looks kind of like Him.

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Right? And that's what happens. But at the Reason Rally also had a conflict with we wanted to find somebody.

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And Luke and I were working all day long. We were trying to find somebody that was sophisticated. That was strong -minded.

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That could hang in a high -level discussion. Because we saw a lot of discussions that were just going just off course.

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And just weren't overly helpful. So we looked around all day for somebody that was sophisticated.

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And praise God and His providence. We ran into the Vice President of the Atheist Society at Cornell University.

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I was like, yes. Score. Somebody that knew the language. That could have the conversation.

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He wanted to talk to us. So this is also on YouTube. You can watch this as well. As we're talking to him, he admits in the video, as the

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Vice President of the Atheist Society at Cornell University, while at the Reason Rally in Washington, D .C.,

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that there is no ultimate basis for reason. For laws of logic. None.

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Laws of logic are just maybe synthetic processes, chemical reactions that are happening in your brain.

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So not ultimate and not universal. In other words, if you take laws of logic and you bring them down to synthetic processes, that's chemical processes happening in the brain, then that means that laws of logic are not necessary.

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And they are certainly not universal. In other words, you can't appeal to somebody right now in the

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U .K. for consistency. Why? Because what's happening in your brain is not the same thing happening in their brain because you're not sharing the same brain.

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So if we take laws of logic and say that they're just synthetic processes, just chemical reactions happening in the brain, then they are not universal.

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They are not necessary. They are not unchanging laws. They're just fizz.

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Right? And this atheist at the Reason Rally says, right, yes, that's right.

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No ultimate basis for laws of logic with atheism. Right. And then we talked about science.

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Same thing happened with science. He says, right. He understood Hume, David Hume, big controversial discussion about induction, whether the future will be like the past.

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And you need to know this. Everything in your life depends upon this.

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Induction. Uniformity in nature. Like right now, guess what? You have been depending upon it the entire time.

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Like all of you right now, you're doing it right now. You're sitting there right now, and none of you, unless you're a little off, have been thinking that you're going to float away to the ceiling.

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At any point during this lecture, you've just assumed, what? That gravity is going to hold you down in that chair like it did all these years of your life.

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And guess what? When you got out of bed this morning, same thing. None of you guys woke up in sheer horror, right?

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Going, ah! Like, what are the laws of the universe going to be today? Right? Nobody did that.

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And everybody got out of bed, put your feet on the floor, you walked to the bathroom and hopefully brushed your teeth, right? Because based upon past experience, you know if you don't brush your teeth, there'll be problems in the future, right?

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All kinds of things you do every single day. You always, and I always, depend upon induction and the uniformity in nature.

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But guess what? You got to have a grounding for that. You have to have the preconditions necessary to have an appeal to the uniformity in nature.

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And David Hume is a famous Scottish philosopher and he said that when he thought about the problem of induction, from his perspective, he didn't ultimately have an answer.

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How do you justify induction? That the future's going to be like the past. That the next five seconds is going to be like the past.

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You can't say, you can't say, well it always has been, because that's begging the question.

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Nobody asked you what was the case. We're asking you, how can you justify an appeal to the future being uniform, that induction holds?

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Guys, listen, we don't launch rockets into space based upon like, ooh, let's see what happens.

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No pilot gets into the seat, right? And goes, ladies and gentlemen, buckle up because this may be awesome, right?

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Like, every one of us, we buy plane tickets with the assumption of what?

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Induction. The uniformity in nature. Now we know that there could be accidents, but we understand accidents are accidents because we make plans based upon uniformity in nature and the future and the mechanical failures.

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We say that's outside of our control because nature is uniform and we can depend upon the future being like the past.

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Now understand this, only the biblical worldview, only with Jesus at the center can you have science.

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Only with Jesus at the center can you make sense of people getting into airplanes and not freaking out, right?

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Constantly. Like, what's gonna happen? What do you think today? Like, how's this gonna work?

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Like pilots know how it's gonna work because nature is uniform because Jesus holds all things together.

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So I'm talking to this atheist and I'm looking for where he's gonna sink. And I brought up the issue of science.

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And here's the vice president of the Atheist Society at Cornell and he admits on camera, he says, yeah, he just knows.

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He knows the discussion. He knows the issue. He's not trying to hide it. He says, no, yeah, that's right. No, there is no ultimate foundation for science or induction.

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That's right, we don't know. Yeah, we live by faith. Atheists live by faith, right?

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No basis for logic, no basis for science and no basis for what? Ethics.

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Right? Because think about it. If you're an atheist, if you're standing on that platform, look at your feet.

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How do you make any ethical appeals? How do you complain about anything at all? I mean,

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I said in a public debate I had with some atheists in California, I wore a

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T -shirt so that everybody would remember because I knew where these guys were coming from.

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They were naturalistic, materialist. That was their perspective. They were on sinking sand. So my T -shirt said, so what?

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So what? Like, that's my ultimate response to their perspective and their worldview. So what?

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Right? Jeff, I see an inconsistency in the word of God. So what? What, so?

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Right? You're an atheist. Like, that matters to me because I'm a Christian. Like, when you're in a room full of Christians and you say, guys, there seems to be like a challenging thing in scripture.

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Like, I'm gonna, we go, really? Let's get it out. Let's figure it out. Right? Let's figure it out.

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Let's get some Presbys in the room, some Reformed Baptists in the room, and let's work this thing out. Let's get to the exegesis.

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Let's do some exposition. Let's get into the word of God. Why? Because we don't want inconsistency. Why? Because we worship a

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God who is the truth, who is consistent, who is unchanging. Consistency matters to us as Christians.

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But what in the world is an atheist doing, saying, Jeff, there's an inconsistency in the Bible. So what?

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What are you doing? Quit borrowing from my worldview, bro. Like, stop trying to borrow capital from me to make yourself look good.

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You know what you look like? You look like an image bearer of God pretending like you're not. You look like somebody who knows the true

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God and knows that consistency matters, logic matters, science matters. You look like somebody who believes that we're not cosmic accidents.

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And now here you are arguing with, what's happening right now looks like it's an issue of sin and rebellion, not consistency in worldview.

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Like, you really have a problem with the Christian worldview because you're borrowing capital from my worldview in order to argue against my worldview.

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Watch for the sinking sand. Watch for the appeals. Watch for the sinking. So in this video with the atheist from Cornell, he admits because of his atheism, he has no appeal to science, ultimate appeal to science, no ultimate appeal to ethics, no ultimate appeal to reason.

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There's looking for the sinking sand. Because watch this. When you have the unbeliever standing on their platform and it is sinking now, and you see them sinking, it's up to us now to point it out and to call them to Christ for life, right?

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Like, a lot of times people will get to this place and say, well, Pastor Jeff, like, you say so what to them.

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It's sort of like the end of the conversation. Like, it seems like it's like the end. Like, you've taken everything away from them.

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There's nothing else to talk about with them, right? So what? And they go, well, I guess you're right. I guess

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I don't have an appeal to ethics or science or whatever. Wait, haven't you kind of left them with nothing? Like, you've sort of ended the conversation?

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Yeah, it's not my job to have them continually have excuses against the

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God they're warring against. Like, it's okay to leave the unbeliever in a position where they're now hopeless and helpless without Jesus.

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That's what I want. I want them to see that all of life is futile and foolish without Jesus, without my

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God. I want them to see the sinking sand. I want them to see that their life is collapsed.

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The house has fallen down around them. That's what I want them to see so that I can call them to repentance and faith.

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Now, I want to encourage you with all that you've been learning and all that you will continue to learn over the time you have here to stand on the word of God as authoritative.

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That's the simplicity of apologetics and applied apologetics. When we go out to the

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Mormon temple, we go out, hopefully, with a respectful, loving, bold call to repentance and faith in whatever context.

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Now, you're going to have to, of course, do your due diligence and love of neighbor by learning their particular perspective if you have a mission field you're called to.

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So if you're called to reach the Mormons, it would be a good idea to know what they believe. It would be a good idea to know their history so you can engage and know where you need to go with them to point them to in Scripture, whatever the case may be.

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But I think the most important thing to recognize is that you must stand with the word of God as the foundation with a bold call to repentance and faith.

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And whatever the case is, whether it's atheism, abortion, Mormonism, the Watchtower, whatever the case may be, stand on the word of God and the biblical worldview and do not move from that position.

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Show them how they're sinking. Point them to the word of God as the foundation. So, for example, with the

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Mormon, it's a bit different. Why? Because you're talking to the Mormon, and we recognize immediately it's very different.

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Why? Because they say that God can speak. Right? That God has spoken.

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All right. That's a different thing than the atheist. But the only problem is the

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Mormon is coming from a perspective where they're now shifting authority claims.

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They'll say, well, we follow the same God as this. Our prophet is from this same

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God. And then you go, okay, tell me more about your story. Well, our prophet says that that God told him that all the other churches are wrong, all their creeds and abomination, all their professors are corrupt, they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

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And our God came to Joseph Smith, and he is just a resurrected God -man.

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And Jesus Christ is a separate and distinct personage and a God than the Father. These are both exalted gods, and you get to become a

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God one day yourself. You go, wow. That's not the

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Christian worldview. How do I know? Because that's not what this says. Right?

50:36

What's the reference point when talking to the Mormon? It's not neutrality. It's the word of God.

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I test Joseph Smith's claims by the word of God. Joseph Smith says that the church was all gone.

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It's fallen off the face of the earth, and now Joseph Smith comes to restore it, not reform it, but restore it, because it's gone.

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Well, that's different, because Jesus says that he built his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The Bible actually teaches that the

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Messiah would come with his kingdom, that he would be on his throne, and he would reign until all of his enemies were under his feet as a footstool for his feet.

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The last enemy to be defeated is death. See, Jesus actually taught that he would build his church, and that it'd be something that he would rule and reign over, and that the devil would never be able to ultimately destroy the church.

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So how do I know Joseph Smith's a fraud? Well, from his very start, his claim in the first vision account contradicts what

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Jesus says in his word, what the Bible says about the kingdom of the Messiah. When we talk about what

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Joseph Smith's claims were about God, what did Joseph Smith say about God? He says, many men say there's only one

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God. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are only one God. I say that's a strange God anyhow. Three in one, one in three, it's a curious organization.

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All are to be crammed into one God according to sectarianism. He'd be a wonderfully big

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God. He'd be a giant or a monster. He says, I wish to declare I have always, and in all congregations, when speaking on the subject of the deity, it has been on the plurality of gods.

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It has been preached by me and the elders of the church for 15 years, he says.

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In the King Follett discourse, his most famous discourse, he says about God, he says, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you.

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Now, what do I do? In an apologetic encounter, what do I do? Try to combat the

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Mormon with my experience? Don't do that. Because they practice their testimony every

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Sunday for hours. They stand up in their wards and it becomes a crying contest.

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I don't mean that to be insulting. I mean, if you've ever been there, you'll know what I'm saying. It's a crying contest.

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You go up and it's part of their culture. They go up and they cry. They go up and they share their testimony.

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They go up and talk about how they weren't a Mormon and then they had missionaries come and give them a book of Mormon and then they prayed over it and they had a testimony, a burning in their bosom and God showed them that it was true and then they cry and talk about how it's made their family better and it's brought their wife closer to them and their children and it's just an amazing experience and a lovely community and it's all this just heart -pumping, experience and emotion and feeling and trust me, what you don't want to do is try to combat that experience with your experience because let's line them up.

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Get the Muslim in here, the Christian scientist, the Jehovah's Witness, the Christian, the atheist, the lesbian, the transgender.

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Get them all in here and let's have a little contest to see who has the best experience in life.

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Who has the best feeling and who has the best story? Is that what it's about?

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Experience? Is that the test for truth? No. When you actually have to engage with the Mormon, you engage with the word of God and the authority of Jesus Christ.

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How do I know Joseph Smith's a fraud? Based upon God's test of a prophet. Deuteronomy 13 verses 1 through 5,

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Deuteronomy 18, 20 through 22. He fails the test of a prophet. Why? Because he leads people after a different God than the

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God they have already known, the way that God has already disclosed himself as one God, triune, eternally existent, and Joseph Smith gave false prophecy.

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The word of God's the reference point. When I talk to the Mormon and they say that you can become a

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God one day, I say, Isaiah 43, 10, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. Is there a God besides me? Indeed, there is no other

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God. I know not one. I can't tell you, brothers and sisters, how many

54:57

Mormons I have seen come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, turn from sin and trust in Jesus and get freed from Mormonism just on the basis of Isaiah 43, 10.

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How many people have written to us, I've lost count. Pastor Jeff, I was watching this video and I was watching it so I could refute you one day and I heard you say

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Isaiah 43, 10 and I could not get it out of my head and God used that to convert me and bring me to Jesus.