August 16, 2024 Show with Dr. Hensworth W C Jonas on “Radical Discipleship”

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Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to have one of my favorite preachers of all time, and I am not exaggerating, on the program for the second time.

I can't believe it's been six years since I've had this dear brother on the show.

His name is Dr. Hensworth Jonas, and Dr. Jonas is the executive director of the

East Caribbean Baptist Mission and the resident pastor of Central Baptist Church of Antigua and Calvary Baptist Church of St.

Vincent. He is an author, a highly sought -after conference speaker, and he's going to be addressing the theme

Radical Discipleship, Uncompromising Conviction in a Hostile World.

We're also going to be announcing an upcoming fall conference for Reformation Month at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. Jonas. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Dr.

Hensworth Jonas. It's such a pleasure to be with you again. And please, if you could, let our listeners know something about the

East Caribbean Baptist Mission. Well, the East Caribbean Baptist Mission is our indigenous missionary society.

We are aiming at reaching the entire Eastern Caribbean and the wider

Caribbean with the gospel of God's free and sovereign grace. And we are incorporated in Antigua and Barbuda.

And by the way, we say Antigua, even though it is a Spanish, even though it's a

Spanish word, Columbus named the island off of a church in Spain, Santa Maria Antigua.

But since the British took control of that island, they have said

Antigua. And that's what everybody there says. But Antigua and Barbuda are a twin island nation in the

Eastern Caribbean. It's a microstate like the other nations of the Eastern Caribbean, a part of the

Organization of East Caribbean States and the British Commonwealth. And we have been attempting to preach the gospel of God's free and sovereign grace there for many decades, for the last three decades, at least.

The church that I pastor, I've been there for 38 years. Wow, it will be 39 years in December.

And the Lord used me and ECBM to plant three other churches on the island of Antigua.

And I'm currently trying to revive a church on the island of St.

Vincent, the Calvary Baptist Church, a 76 year old Baptist church that was dying. And by God's grace, it's coming back to the glory of God.

Hallelujah. And so I'm working on that. I also have been involved in Christian education.

I founded three schools there in Antigua, an early childhood school, a primary school and a secondary school.

We call them Baptist Academy of Antigua. And we have a combined student body of about 450 children.

And the Lord has been blessing that ministry. We have had the best test scores in our nation on both the primary and secondary level.

But most importantly, it's a platform for leading children and their parents to the

Lord Jesus Christ. We're also involved in media ministries with local television for the last 30 years.

And I've been doing all that we can to mentor young men for the work of the ministry.

Hallelujah. And if anybody wants more information on the Baptist mission, the

East Caribbean Baptist mission, go to Baptist Antigua, I'm pronouncing it correctly,

I believe this time, Baptist Antigua .org. And that is

Baptist A -N -T -I -G -U -A .org. And we will be repeating that information later on in the program.

And I have very fond memories as I look at you through the screen of the computer.

I remember when you were last on the program in May of 2018,

May 28th to be exact. And we discussed a doctor, I'm sorry, dancing with idolatry.

Are you bowing to a false god? I remember you were actually sitting right next to me in the studio. Yes, yes, yes,

I remember. And thank God for the technology that we can do it still from such a distance.

Yes. And you sound like you're in the studio nonetheless, even though we're hundreds of miles apart.

I just have to quickly, before I forget to say it later, I strongly urge everyone listening, if you can make it to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania on Saturday and Sunday, October 26th and 27th, to attend the

Reformation Month conference that they're having there featuring Dr. Hemsworth Jonas. I strongly urge you to attend this event.

As I said at the outset of this program, Dr. Jonas is truly one of my very favorite preachers on the planet

Earth. That is not hyperbole. It's not exaggeration. And I know many who share my opinion.

And I don't know if Josh Miller, the pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, has given you the full title yet of your—

Well, yes, he has. He's called it sanctification, this moment of worship.

And we're going to be doing a careful study of Romans chapter 12 in relation to this.

And so I'm really looking forward to this event. Yeah, and I was thrilled when not long ago,

Josh Miller contacted me and said, Chris, you've helped us out before.

Can you please help us to arrange a conference this October? We need a guest speaker.

And I immediately thought of you. And I'm so delighted that in God's providence, your schedule was clear and that this has been a dumb deal etched in stone.

Of course, God does what he wants to do, but— Deo volente. God willing.

If all goes according to his plan, we will be seeing

Dr. Jonas this October. And I strongly urge you to come. For more details, go to the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania website, gracebfc .com,

gracebfc, which stands for biblefellowshipchurch .com. And we'll also be repeating that later on in the broadcast.

Well, you have written a new book that our friends at Reformation Heritage Books has brought into print.

And it is called Radical Discipleship, Uncompromising Conviction in a

Hostile World. I do want to read some of the powerful commendations for this book.

My friend, Dr. Joel Beakey, who is chancellor and professor of homiletics and systematic theology at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I've known Dr. Beakey since the 1990s, long before he became a very famous Reformed Christian conference speaker and author.

And in fact, he was just very recently my keynote speaker at the last Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

He did a remarkable message to the pastors there on 10 ways to overcome depression in the ministry through criticism.

And it was really remarkable. But Dr. Beakey says of this book, In much of modern

Christianity, the prevalence of worldliness has diluted the distinction between the church and the world.

In the church today, there is relatively little demand for gospel clarity, sound preaching, genuine discipleship,

Christ -centered suffering, and faithful church discipline. In this work, Hemsworth Jonas shows that spirit -worked, life -transforming, and radical discipleship is the divine cure for worldliness.

Such transformation is rooted in the power, person, and call of Jesus Christ, as well as awareness of God's holiness, eager anticipation of future glory, separation from the world, and imitation of God.

With a pastoral heart, Jonas then shows how biblical discipleship should transform every aspect of our lives from the inside out.

You will not be disappointed by this excellent manual of Reformed experiential and practical

Christian living. Also, a very dear friend of mine, also dating back to the 1990s,

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and founding chancellor of the

African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia. Dr. Mbewe says,

The Christian faith, by its very nature, must be radical. Light has come into the world of darkness.

Thus, Hemsworth Jonas's call in this book for God's people to pursue through holiness in this sinful world must be taken seriously.

He challenges us to a Christian life that is wonderfully illustrated by his own life and ministry in the

Caribbean. But above all, this is a call to biblical Christianity. I commend this book to today's church.

Lest we totally lose our saltiness, let us heed this clarion call.

And finally, another man who has been a guest on this program, another very powerful preacher,

Paul Washer, founder and missions director of HeartCry Missionary Society. Paul says,

Hensworth Jonas intends to speak a word of correction, exhortation, and encouragement to contemporary

Christianity. By God's grace, he has achieved this purpose. A careful reading of this book will result in a spiritual recalibration in all the areas of the

Christian life that truly matter. His contrast between the God of the Bible and the designer

God of contemporary Christianity is remarkable. His call for straightforward obedience to the word of God is a summons to true discipleship.

All very powerful commendations and more reasons why everyone should get a hold of this book if you care about discipleship.

Well, Dr. Jonas, what can you say, especially from the context of ministering in the

Caribbean, but of course you do travel globally, you're a highly sought after conference speaker, but in what context through your ministry in the

Caribbean did you have, through God's providence, compelling factors that led you to say,

I've got to put pen to paper and write this book on discipleship? Well, I must give a lot of credit to Dr.

Beeke, who encouraged me greatly to write this book. We met up at a few conferences.

We've been meeting up at a lot of conferences in Brazil, in Paris, throughout the

United States, and he will be joining me next year in Antigua, and I will be joining him next week at the

Puritan Reform conference, the Puritan Reform Theological Seminary Conference in Grand Rapids, where they'll be pretty much talking about the church and the

Christian family. And so I will be presenting two addresses there, and also at his church, the

Heritage Reform Congregation, the following Sunday. But he encouraged me to write along these lines, having heard a number of my sermons, and I, for the last 38 and a half years of ministry in the

Caribbean, full -time as a pastor, have encountered so many situations where I've had to engage the culture head -on.

We like to say when America sneezes, we catch the cold. We are a microstate living in the shadow of this superpower, and no doubt a lot of American culture and issues impact what happens in these nearby countries.

And so a lot of the woke neo -Marxists, critical race theory, all the gender issues, or the abortion, you name it, it affects us too.

And we need clear voices and clear messages along those lines. And so this book is an attempt to address it from the perspective of Christian discipleship, because the real crisis is in a watered -down

Christianity among believers, even in Reformed churches. I have described the current situation as an effeminate, cowardly, perverted, and shallow iteration of Christianity, and that has the ascendancy in our generation.

And so I think that this is an urgent and necessary call.

Well, if you could explain for us, how is much of modern -day

Christianity made effeminate? Well, even by when we say effeminate, there is a very clear despising of the biblical benevolent patriarchy,

God's order in the world. And whether that is expressed in the family or the local church or in society at large, men who lead biblically are slandered, are called toxic, toxic patriarchy.

The word patriarchy is now a pejorative. Yeah. They're called misogynists.

They're called all of these names. And so many of the men become beta males.

They are very obsessed with the affective domain. They're concerned with emotion and feelings rather than being enforcers of righteousness in their homes and in their churches and in their communities.

And so there is a crisis of masculinity, biblical masculinity. And so the

Christianity that we have today has been affected greatly by this. And in many churches in Antigua and Barbuda, I would say most churches in Antigua and Barbuda and the

Caribbean, and I put churches in quotation marks because I do not believe that most of these will qualify as biblical churches, would have women leadership on every level.

Pastors and worship leaders and many authoritative capacities in ruling the women.

And so we look like an aberration. We look crazy.

We look out of touch when we insist that the leadership in homes and churches must be men.

And look around the churches, not only in the Caribbean region, but across America.

Do we even see the symbol of authority on the heads of our women? No, we don't.

I know the women generally just ignore this because there is a despising of God's order in 1

Corinthians 11. We see that the head of Christ is God, that the head of the man is

Christ and the head of the woman is the man. And of course, this is something that is hated in our culture today.

So, yes, it is effeminate in many senses of the word and certainly out of the will of God.

In fact, let me just take an opportunity to plug a very recent interview I conducted with Zachary Garris.

He is the author of Honor Thy Fathers, Recovering the Anti -Feminist

Theology of the Reformers, a foreword by Joseph A. Piper, the president emeritus at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in South Carolina.

I had a wonderful interview with Brother Garris. So, you have given us some of what you believe is the root cause of the modern churches of feminacy, being the rise of feminism within the ranks of ministries and churches.

And even if it is not called that, there are people who have become so used to the dominance of feminism in our culture that it's kind of like a frog in a kettle syndrome where they don't even possibly realize how affected they are by feminism and how much they cater to the whims of feminists without even realizing how anti -biblical it is.

There's no doubt about that. We need a return to biblical femininity as opposed to this pagan feminism where the women understand and embrace the fact that they thrive only when

God's order is predominant, when God's order prevails.

They are in no way being victimized by God's order.

God's order is the nature of reality, and that is the context in which they will thrive.

Now, this is a theory of mine, and I was wondering what you thought of it as far as that same thought about the feminizing or effeminizing, effeminization of the church.

There are many who are, even on paper, theologically biblical, orthodox, but some of these men obviously, it appears, have a craving of being accepted as a peer to the leftists in academia, and their approach to declaring the gospel is very weighty in its intellectual elements but lacks robustness, lacks power, lacks unwavering and uncompromising boldness without fear of insulting the hearers or readers in their audience.

And to me, that approach, especially when things that they say and write have been softened not to offend the leftists in academia whose approval they crave, it has produced a more effeminate church because people look up to these men as the experts of Christianity.

Am I making sense there? You're making a lot of sense, but I need to clarify one matter.

Sure. My book is not necessarily an attack on feminism.

Right. This is about one symptom. Right. The real problem is the absence of the correct epistemology, all right?

Our epistemology as Reformed Christians is sola scriptura. Yes. That's how we know what we know.

Well, the dominant epistemology of our generation is emotion, feelings, and also tradition, how we have always done it.

But if we are going to be in the will of God, we must understand that our epistemology can be nothing less than sola scriptura.

But having said that, you have nailed it in your analysis that the quest for the approbation, accreditation, applause,

I sound a little Baptist there with that alliteration, but this desire to have the approval of the world, and you're naming a particular powerful group in America and around the world, those who are on the left.

And as a matter of fact, you must realize that left now is actually worse than liberal.

Yes. Because there are liberal people who will still stand up for certain rights and that keep the

Judeo -Christian ethic alive, but these leftists, these radical leftists somehow have focused on capturing the major institutions of the society while the rest of us sleep.

Yes. And so they have captured academia, they have captured the media, they have captured major political parties, they have captured so many of the major institutions and are wreaking havoc and destroying our civilization.

Yes, it's so grievous when you realize, sometimes we forget that some of the major institutions of learning in our nation and elsewhere, the

Ivy League schools and other institutions that were born out of a

Puritan theology and ethic and have become the haters of all that the

Puritans stood for, and especially the haters of all that God and his inerrant

God -breathed word stands for. It's just such a tragedy to see how far they have fallen, these organizations.

But we have to go to our first commercial break, and when we come back I'd like Hensworth to address the radical

Christ from his book. And if you have any questions of your own for Dr.

Hensworth Jonas, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Dr. Hensworth Jonas and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisorrenson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence. We are discussing

Radical Discipleship, Uncompromising Conviction in a Hostile World, which is also the title of Dr.

Jonas's new book available from Reformation Heritage Books, and one of the issues that I mentioned before we went to the break was the radical

Christ. How is this Christ that you believe must be rediscovered and preached boldly different from the

Christ that may be proclaimed from the pulpits of many evangelical churches today? Well, of course, the

Christ that many are hearing of and have grown accustomed to does not look like anything that we see in the

Holy Scripture. Well, there are several things that I brought out in the book concerning this, one of which is that when this

Christ comes into your life, it's a coup d 'etat. It's a coup d 'etat.

He takes over your life. There is an alien power that summons you and controls you.

As a matter of fact, you will sense that you are no longer your own.

You will understand that you have now been commandeered.

You have now been taken over, and apart from this experience, you really do not have a credible relationship with the

God of the Bible, and so I tried to bring out this and to present this that any other

Christ is an idolatrous representation. He takes over, but not only does he take over, it's all about him in the sense that he never says, follow this or follow that or follow them or follow over there.

No, he says, follow me. It's all about a personal relationship, and it's all about understanding that you are engaging him intimately.

I know this sounds a little bit too mystical for some of our generation, but it is a personal engagement of the

Christ in a relationship where you are daily gazing upon him through the eyes of faith, where worshiping him is the heart of who you are now.

That's your favorite activity. You understand that you are here for his glory, and so the glory of Christ becomes your highest motive and your basic purpose for living.

As a matter of fact, your sin only starts when the worship stops. All of our iniquitous excursions are rooted in the fact that we took our gaze off Christ, and so this is an important aspect that we brought out in the book.

Another thing is that he calls you to action. I made a lot out of Matthew's call.

Matthew 9 .9, he was minding his own business as a customs officer. He's actually a traitor to his nation as a customs officer of the

Romans, and Jesus comes to his office and summons him to resign and take up a whole new occupation.

Just imagine that, the audacity of Christ to come into his life and just call him away from his occupation to a whole new preoccupation, which is the extension of the kingdom of God.

This is what Christ does. It's so radical when you experience the

Christ that your whole life is interfered with, disturbed, taken over, and so any other understanding of your relationship with Christ has somehow compromised biblical

Christianity. Would you say a part of this aberrant understanding of Christ comes from the belief of many who profess to be evangelical, that being nice is infinitely more important than being truthful to the point of hurting others' feelings?

People are far more concerned with the feelings of people very often than they are with their eternal destinies, and they would rather keep a friend and not disturb a warm, collegial, ironic relationship with that friend and see that person die and go to hell.

So they are just fearful of saying anything that would dare ruffle their feathers, hurt their feelings, and they present a

Christ that is much the same way. In fact, you very often—I have heard it many times, especially since I'm in Christian radio and I worked for a major radio network for 15 years of my life—many have presented a

Christ that they will describe as a perfect gentleman, and that is usually something said by those who hate the doctrines of grace and the doctrines of a sovereign

God. Oh, our God would never remove your heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh without you first being willing to do that, willing for him to do that, because of course he is a gentleman.

Am I making sense here? You're making a lot of sense. As a matter of fact, your last example there is very, very powerful, because the same people who are pretending to be very much invested in Christian theology will make a case that you need the permission of the second

Adam for him to accomplish his work, while the first Adam—we were not in any way involved volitionally with the work of the first Adam.

He just ruined everything for us without our permission, and the second

Adam, they're saying, cannot fix things for us without our permission, which is total nonsense.

But what you have done, Brother Chris, is returned to even what we discussed earlier about the effeminate

Christianity that we have, because we know from our studies, our science, that the ladies, while we all appreciate emotion and feelings, everybody does, the ladies major on that affective domain.

They major on feelings, and we want that.

I mean, we love our moms, you know. I mean, sometimes if dad had to straighten things out, we like the comfort of mom, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But when this thing becomes the dominant principle upon which you engage persons, where you are overly obsessed with feelings rather than truth, you're going to end up with compromise and corruption of your

Christianity. And a perfect segue that you have in your book to that is radical transformation, and according to what

I have witnessed over the decades that I've been a Christian, thankfully, all of those years in a solid, biblical, confessional,

Reformed Baptist church—I was saved in a Reformed Baptist church, thanks be to God, so I never had to unlearn a whole lot of baggage of aberrant evangelical theology.

I was raised Roman Catholic, but didn't know really much of anything that the

Church of Rome taught other than the bare -bones basics. But as becoming a

Christian, a true Christian, I was saved in a Reformed church. But I've witnessed, it seems, two extremes on this issue of transformation.

On the one hand, you may have radical Armenians—actually, five -point

Armenians, even though they would never call themselves that—who definitely insist upon transformation, but they believe it comes from our own willpower, that it must be from within ourselves that this transformation is conjured up, perhaps with some assistance of God.

But then you have, on the other end of the extreme, you have a salvation with no transformation, and you even have brothers in Christ, some of whom are

Reformed, who say that if you focus too much on that transformation stuff, you are adding to the finished work of Christ, you are adding to justification by faith alone.

And some people that I've heard recently, who even wear the name Reformed, have said that those that focus and boldly declare on the necessity of transformation, that we're preaching another gospel.

So I see these two ends of the spectrum of really being very heretical on this issue, if you could just pick up where I left off there.

Well, you are absolutely correct. You have heresy if you have change without change.

If someone is professing to have been radically changed by the grace of our

Lord Jesus Christ, and we do not see any kind of evidence, any demonstration of the same in their life, when we experience the glory of God, the weight of God's significance overwhelms us.

If the God of the Bible has not emerged as the consuming passion and priority of our lives, then we have not met

Christ. For this reason, our Lord prayed in his high priestly prayer in John 17, 22, and the glory which thou gavest me,

I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one. In the same way, the apostle

Paul mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4 and verse 6, for God, who commandeth the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

What we speak of here is not necessarily some kind of mystical vision, all right?

We speak of the fact that the glory of God, that which is weighty and substantial and significant, consumes us to the point that our

God is the only thing that matters, and his holiness, and making sure that that is manifested in our experience.

Well, we do have a listener who has a question for you,

Quentin in South Valley, New Mexico, who says, would you be so kind as to provide for us a comparison between the theological climate in the

Caribbean with that in the United States that you've witnessed? Is the Caribbean just as bad off as the

United States seem to be in our modern day, or is the soil more fertile for true teaching like that you are proposing today in your interview?

Well, as I hinted at, alluded to earlier, when

America sneezes, I said we catch the cold, and we have been catching a lot of the cold.

Everything that is in America is in the Caribbean in some way.

One advantage we currently have is that the people are openly a little bit more conservative.

It's just last year, for instance, that homosexuality was decriminalized in Antigua and Barbuda.

There were buggery laws, and it wasn't even dealt with in Parliament.

It was a judge who struck it down, and those in the government who were happy just did not appeal, because a homosexual act was an offense in Antigua and Barbuda up until last year.

So openly, much of these islands are somewhat conservative in terms of morality.

Right now, abortion is still illegal in Antigua and Barbuda. Praise God. No, don't be so quick to praise

God for the wrong thing. I praise God for His sovereignty in all of this, but right now, the laws are not being enforced.

It's a criminal act to have an abortion, but the government is just not enforcing the law.

So we need to intercede on behalf of the situation in the islands here.

Our people have basically gone woke. They have embraced the leftist positions, even though much of the

Judeo -Christian ethic is still enshrined in the law. Well, now you folks who have watched movies about Victorian England or England in centuries earlier than that, when you hear the word buggery, you'll know what it means now, if you didn't know before.

By the way, Quentin in South Valley, New Mexico, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today, this book by Hensworth Jonas, Radical Discipleship.

So please give us your full name, your full address in New Mexico, and our friends at CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship that out to you.

And this is compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books, who have been generous enough to provide for us a limited number of free copies of this book.

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us. The midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, which airs this program every day, they are compelled by the

FCC to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air on their end, while we, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So I'm asking of you to please use this time wisely, try to respond to as many of our advertisers as you can, knowing that our advertisers and the finances that come through them are what keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. So please try to respond to as many of our advertisers as possible, and of course, send in your questions to Dr.

Hensworth Jonas, to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back. Please do not go away. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church have come in are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbyterian Church, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com,

that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831, that's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Matti, in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in New York, and also the host of the

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and always.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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Please always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my fascinating conversation with Dr.

Hensworth Jonas on his new book, Radical Discipleship, I just have some important reminders for you.

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So send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. And by the way, folks, as urgently and as desperately as we need your financial support,

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Never do that. And if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, we would ask that you wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you bless us with a financial gift.

The Bible's very clear that we are primarily to use the money with which God has blessed us, which is still his money, to provide for the church and the family.

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God. But if you do love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes.

Please share some of that money with us if you love the show and don't want it to go off the air. Go to www .ironsharpensironradio

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Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Central Baptist Church, where my dear friend

Dr. Hensworth Jonas pastors in Antigua. Well, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the entire globe, and I have helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too.

So no matter where you live in the world, if you are without a biblically faithful church home, send me an email to chrisorensen at gmail .com,

chrisorensen at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest

Dr. Hensworth Jonas on radical discipleship, chrisorensen at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

U .S. site. We are now approaching radical worship, which is a subject in this book.

Now, ironically, you and I are Reformed Baptists, and we may have charismatic and Pentecostal friends that would say they're the ones that participate in radical worship, not us, and sometimes

I can honestly say that there are many of us in the Reformed community whose worship is very tame, perhaps even impotent.

People seem to be sometimes more concerned with not looking like a charismatic or a

Pentecostal than they are in giving the Lord true robust worship. But what do you mean by radical worship?

Well, I must tell you a statement that I made just a few months ago when

I was preaching at the Reformation Conference for G3 Ministries in Texas. I mentioned that many

Reformed people are very suspicious of joy. If you're shouting hallelujah or praising the

Lord, they think you've been bitten by some Pentecostal bug. But I do believe that the

Pentecostals, the charismatics, are the problem here. They don't have radical worship. I believe that the worship is only biblically radical if the object of the worship is in focus.

You see, in our generation, we have lost the concept that in worship it is an audience of one.

You see, we have convinced people, or people are convinced, that the congregation is the audience.

Well, in fact, those who lead the worship, as well as those who are congregants, are all presenters.

We're all presenters. God is the audience. It's an audience of one, and the only thing that matters is what pleases

Him. Now, there are a lot of people who are convinced that the content of worship must, in fact, be pleasing to them.

They must like it. They must enjoy it. When this is at the heart of the corruption of worship, we need to return to the

Puritan regulative principle, not the normative principle.

The regulative principle obviously speaks to the fact that we only give our God what

He has specifically prescribed for worship throughout the Scriptures. And, of course, we speak of continuity and discontinuity.

We know that what He likes, what He desires, never changes. But, of course, the expression of the same would depend on what time you live in.

He had animal sacrifices at one point. Looking forward to the

Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. We no longer kill animals, but we're still looking toward the

Lamb. And so, we need to give Him only what

He has prescribed. In our generation, we must sing the Word.

That's Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. We must pray the Word, prayers of adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication.

We must declare the Word, read the Word in the hearing of the people, and preach the

Word. And we must see the Word in the sacraments, in the holy ordinances of believers' baptism and the

Lord's Supper. And we must make sure that it is all for His glory. This has been lost in our generation.

So, you have people leading who are not qualified, like many of the women, or even unqualified men.

You have a situation where the females do not have the symbol of authority on their heads, or the men have their heads covered.

You have a situation where all that He has ordained is basically marginalized for entertainment.

I certainly hope there's a return to God and be worshiped. Now, you said, and I think you're absolutely right, of course, that it should not—our enjoyment of worship should not be the defining factor of determining what we do in a worship service or how we do it.

But at the same time, don't you believe that if worship is done according to how

God desires us to worship, that we will, if we are truly born again, if we are regenerate, we will enjoy it?

Yes, I do enjoy worship, but I do not go to worship to enjoy worship.

If you are approaching worship for enjoyment, you're corrupting worship.

My enjoyment of worship has a lot to do with the outcome of it.

I cannot approach my God to have fun. I must approach my

God to be conformed to the image of His Son. And so, we don't need that charismatic element where you have a commercial model as opposed to a covenant model.

When you go to church, the commercial model is that the customer is always right.

You must please the customer. We are not customers at worship. We are a part of a family, a covenant community of faith coming together to magnify and glorify our

God. And so, yes, enjoyment does happen in worship. Sometimes mourning happens in worship.

The full gamut of emotions are experienced in worship, but the object of worship is our

God, glorifying Him, enjoying Him forever, is our highest motive, is our chief end, which is the chief end of God as well.

Yes, and the chief end of man is to love Him and enjoy Him forever, right, according to the catechism.

And one of the reasons I said what I said was because I have encountered people who disdain traditional worship.

And when they hear some of the cherished old hymns that you and I would love, they would say things like, that hymn bores the living daylights out of me.

Oh, man, you people have got to get up with the times with your worship songs.

I have said on occasion in response, if the words of those hymns that you're specifically addressing do not spark in you some kind of deep reverence and even joy in the

Lord, I have concerns of whether or not you are regenerate, because there are certain things that we who are reformed are blessed by in a worship service that are so biblical and rich that to reject them, to me, reveals that you may indeed be a foreigner in a worship service, meaning somebody who is not truly a child of God.

I tell you what, there was a local radio station here, is a local radio station here in Antigua Barbuda.

I turned on one time and I heard the announcer say the name of the radio station, and then he says, music for the heart and not for the hip.

I thought it was very funny, but he captured what you are talking about there, where a person's focus is on their hip, their enjoyment.

Maybe they want to gyrate a little or dance around a little bit, when in fact, worship is to focus, to gaze on our

God who is altogether lovely in all His attributes, whether communicable or incommunicable.

And we are to be looking at that and marveling at it, being overwhelmed in it, being raptured in it.

And so we need lyrics, we need content in our hymns that magnify

His holy person and celebrate who He is and who He is to us. Amen.

We have a listener named Cyril in Salisbury Cove, Maine, who says something or asks something connected with something that you just recently said.

Should we be leery when we are visiting a church that insists that the sermon messages and even the songs are always meant to leave us in a state of ecstatic joy and never challenges to the point where we are grieving over our sin?

Well, as I said a while ago, in truly biblical worship, the full gamut of emotions are engaged.

Well, for one, you start by engaging the mind. There must be an intellectual grappling with the truth because God has spoken and there are truth propositions there.

This is not something mystical. We're not going to be hitting some kind of gong. We are going to be listening to truth expounded.

So we must engage the mind, but the affections must be engaged as well as we are enraptured and embraced by the truth and we are given a joyful or even a sorrowful response to the same.

We should not anticipate that only joy and happiness will be the result of the word of God penetrating our hearts.

Sometimes it is mourning and sin and repentance and so on. So what it has to be is real rather than trying to manufacture it in a particular direction because our needs are different in a particular time and space when we approach the true and living

God. And also we must engage volitionally. In other words, the worship must drive us to action and to decisions that are commensurate with the scriptures.

You just reminded me of a sermon I heard many years ago. It was probably the 1980s, maybe the 1990s, before Joel Osteen became such a popular pastor, the smiling preacher

Joel Osteen. His father, John Osteen, was the pastor of that church.

Had a much different demeanor than Joel. He was sort of a grumpy

Pentecostal pastor and I can still remember him mocking

Jonathan Edwards' sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. And he said, there's a man named

Jonathan Edwards, lived a long time ago, and he had a famous sermon called

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. Sinners in the hands of an angry

God? That's not good news. That's bad news. I want the good news. Obviously, we can't even appreciate to a millionth of a degree of what

God intended us to appreciate. What the good news is, if we don't know the bad news, am

I correct? Right, because before you have your therapy, you need a proper diagnosis.

Yes. So, if you've diagnosed the problem wrongly, if you've assessed that the damage is just surface, it doesn't penetrate deep, deeply down into your whole personality and life, then you will come up with an easy answer, like say after me, repeat after me, or come down the aisle, or join this group.

But when you're dealing seriously, you will understand that the assessment of scripture is that we are totally depraved and totally unable to help ourselves.

And we are in need of an intervention by the true and living God to rescue us from sin and the trajectory to hell.

Amen. And what do you mean by radical prayer? Well, of course, radical prayer involves the whole matter that our prayers need to be informed by who

God is. Real prayer begins with the mediation of God.

God is the one who informs our prayer. If your prayer isn't informed by scripture, it's an act of futility.

We cannot just come with a Santa Claus laundry list and call that prayer.

We, our prayer is worship. Prayer is a realignment of our lives according to God's will,

God's revelation. So biblical prayer is initiated by the mediation of God.

And this prayer is also intensified by the majesty of God, who he is.

Sometimes we will mess up with prayer because we forget who in fact we are talking to, you know, and you hear the charismatics decree this and declare this and demand this.

You think that they are mistaken concerning who is God. They have taken dominion and have taken authority.

And they will say, I declare this in the name of Jesus, like some magic formula.

And they are able to summons up whatever they desire, like some genie responding.

This is not the God of the Bible. All right. His majesty informs our prayer.

What we want more than anything else is conformity to the image of his son.

And so our prayers are informed by not only his revelation, but by his holy person.

Okay. Our prayers are also influenced by his mission. What is he after?

What is he after? He is after his glory. We are going to have prayers answered if we are focused on the glory of God, that we make sure that we jettison every vestige of idolatry.

That means that our identity, our significance, and our security are all wrapped up in the person of Christ.

Who am I? I'm a Christ follower. Why am I here? To bring glory to Christ, to manifest and proclaim his supremacy in all things.

Where do I get security in Christ? The problem in every life, and by the way, this is also in the life of professing believers, sometimes genuine believers, is that we take these excursions in idolatry, whereby we get our identity from something else, maybe a job, maybe an achievement, maybe some sort of possession, maybe a person, somebody else, a man, a woman.

I don't know what it is, but if we get our identity there, who are you?

Oh, I'm the man with that house on the hill up there. No, no, no, no, no. Who are you? I am a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I'm a Christ follower. He is my Lord. He is my life. He is my everything. My affections are set on him only.

So who are we? Our identity must be Christ. Why are we here? Our significance must be

Christ. Where do we get security from? It must be Christ and Christ alone.

And so that affects everything about our prayers because now our prayers will be focused, focused on being conformed to his image.

Our petitions, our desires are only to be conformed to his way. And also our mission will become clear.

Holiness unto the Lord and rescuing the perishing. Amen. Well, we do have a question from Markel in Roosevelt, Long Island, New York.

Markel says, how do you respond to the non -reformed critics of Calvinistic prayer life, typically coming from charismatic and Pentecostal circles, where they will criticize we who are reformed in the manner with which we pray, typically involving pleading with God, begging

God for the answers to prayer. And yet in the Lord's prayer that Jesus himself provides in the

Bible, you don't see him instructing us to beg, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

And you don't see any please and those kinds of words that are typically used in begging.

How do you respond to this criticism? That is a particular take on the intensity of the language that I don't think is obvious or even necessary, all right?

Because I am hearing begging where he isn't hearing begging, okay? However, back to the real heart of the issue that there really isn't such a thing as an

Armenian prayer. I think Spurgeon dealt with this in great detail. That you can only be

Armenian when you're debating theology, because the minute you begin to worship, you become a

Calvinist. What does an Armenian prayer sound like? A genuine

Armenian prayer is, Lord, whether it's for salvation, excuse me, or for healing, an

Armenian prayer is, Lord, please do your part, because I know

I must do my part. My brother is sick, and so do whatever you need to do on your side, and we will do what we need to do on our side.

No, nobody prays like that, not even the Armenian. The Armenian says,

Lord, heal him. Lord, save him. Please do it, because deep down inside, they all know that the means do not guarantee the end, but there are no means with...

The means don't guarantee the end, but there is no end without the means. The same God who foreordained the end, foreordained the means, and we must...

One of the means is that we will cry out to him, call upon him, and he will answer us and show us great and mighty things that we know not of.

And so, really and truly, everyone is a Calvinist when they worship.

Yeah, that's what J .I. Packer said, all Christians are Calvinists on their knees. That is the truth.

By the way, you have won, listener in Roosevelt, Long Island, Markel, you have won a free copy of the book we are discussing,

Radical Discipleship, and that is by Hensworth Jonas, and it is given to us through the generosity of Reformation Heritage Books.

If you give us your full mailing address, our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

will ship that book out to you. And also keep in mind, if you are a first -time questioner, let us know that when you give us your mailing address, because first -time questioners on Iron Trip and Zion Radio also always receive a free

New American Standard Bible. So, we will add that to the shipment that cvbbs .com

will ship out to you if you mention that you are a first -time questioner.

Well, one of the things that we need to address in regard to your book is not only radical worship, but something that is probably something that nobody really wants to experience, even though some may very piously say that they do, but radical suffering.

If you could explain that. Well, we need to have a bit of an adjustment of our thinking concerning suffering, because it is actually indispensable to the

Christian life. Christ made it abundantly clear that he came to suffer, and he was a perfect person.

A perfect person. Suffering was a necessity in his life, and so we don't get a pass on this matter of suffering.

In this book, I focused on 1 Peter 1, where I showed that the

Apostle Peter was commanding us to rejoice in suffering, in the heaviness, and he particularly related it to the doctrinal foundations of the faith, that if we are going to truly appreciate suffering, we have to appreciate the order salutis.

We have to appreciate all that Christ has taught us, and to see how suffering exegetes it.

How suffering conforms us and explains the depths of our relationship with him, and our being prepared to go to the lengths to be conformed to his image, and demonstrate our solidarity with him in his suffering.

It is his suffering in his passive obedience that has paid the penalty for us, and we embrace suffering in order that we may demonstrate our solidarity with him, all right, and that we have in fact been transformed.

It is nothing like suffering to prove who is who. Suffering also is vitally important in the sense that we learn that Christ is in the business of pruning us from time to time, and removing various things that we would tend to hold on to that will compromise our intimacy with him, and so he has this use of suffering to enable us to jettison those aspects of our relationship with him, and wean us, those aspects of our relationship with him that are hindering us, and to wean us off of this world.

Also, suffering brings some semblance of balance to keep us appreciating the work of God in our lives.

I know that we cannot address in great detail a lot of this in the broadcast, but I'm hoping that I have highlighted some of the things that would be investigated in detail by reading the book.

Yes, of course, every aspect of being radical that you have provided in your book, each one of those could entail a two -hour interview on its own, so what we are doing is addressing those things in a way that will whet the appetite of our listeners to learn more and get a hold of the book, and we'll ask one more question before we go to the final break.

We have Percy in Wheeling, West Virginia, and Percy in Wheeling, West Virginia says,

Don't we need to be careful about how we address the issue of suffering and not turn it into a heresy like Mother Teresa taught, that it somehow made us more worthy in God's sight of entering heaven?

Oh, I agree with that, because nothing in our hands we bring simply to the cross we cling.

It isn't our suffering that brings us into a right relationship with God, it is the suffering of his son,

Jesus Christ, and so this whole Catholic penance doctrine, sacrament of penance, must be jettisoned completely, must be abandoned totally, because it is only the merits of Christ that bring us into a right relationship with God.

First, we must have a lamb, a male lamb, without blemish.

This is going right back to the old sacrificial system, and that's our Lord Jesus Christ, all right, in his active obedience where he lived perfectly.

See, the lamb must be without blemish. He lived perfectly and imputes that righteousness to sinners like us, and then he died the death for us that we should have died but couldn't, and having lived the life for us that we should have lived but didn't and couldn't because of our depravity.

He lived the life, he died the death, and it is him alone that we look to for a right relationship with God, a restored relationship with God, because ultimately all

God wants is perfection and payment, and that could only come through his son,

Jesus Christ. So yes, we don't want to give the false notion that we are suffering in like the

Catholic sacrament of penance, which was embraced by Mother Teresa, and even though we can admire her works of charity, her helping other people, if she truly believed what her church taught, well, we cannot celebrate at all because we will be horrified by the notion of eternal perdition.

Amen, and we have to go to our final break, and by the way, Percy, you've also won a free copy of Radical Discipleship by Hemsworth Jonas.

Please make sure you give us your full mailing address in Wheeling, West Virginia, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship that out to you, and we thank once again our friends at Reformation Heritage Books for their generosity in providing us with a limited number of these books, and don't go away, we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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Also, folks, I want to remind you that my former church, before I moved to Pennsylvania, Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, which happens to be the very first American church where Dr.

Conrad M. Beyway ever preached while visiting America in 1996 from Cubauta Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia.

But Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, is having their Courageous Marriage Conference on Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th, and it will feature their keynote speaker, the best -selling author,

Dr. Joe Rigney. If you want to register for this Courageous Marriage Conference, Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th, at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, go to their website, gracereformbaptistchurch .org,

gracereformbaptistchurch .org. And now, Hensworth, we have reached the next radical thing that we need to address before we go off the air.

Radical resistance, please explain. Well, we are living in a time of pluralism, where we are being challenged to privatize our faith and assimilate into the culture.

And we are going to have to decide whether we're going to be courageous for the gospel of Jesus Christ, or just blend in with what the culture is demanding, because there's strong pressure for accreditation, for approbation.

And so, my book is challenging believers, especially

Reformed believers, to make sure that they accept the notion of exclusivity.

We cannot have a contempt for exclusivity. We must understand that Christ has called us to stand out for Him, to be even lone rangers at times for Him, to accept even obscurity and derision for Him, because His call is that we will never privatize our faith, we will shout it from the rooftops.

It doesn't mean that we become offensive, but we accept the offense of the gospel and embrace it.

Also, we should have no conflict of interest. We should establish in our hearts and minds that we are prepared to go down, trusting our

God and embrace whatever consequences He has ordained for us in being faithful.

And so, there's a challenge in that regard. But also, back to this matter of affliction and understanding that the furnace, the refiner's fire, is a definite, indispensable part of biblical

Christianity, that we will understand that we must be prepared to embrace all of His prunings, all of the weaning that He will have us be off of this world, so that we may set our affections on things above.

So, yes, there's going to be great temptation. The world is going to be constantly challenging us to blend in, to not be—well, to be conformed to its standards and not be transformed by the renewing of our minds, as we are told in Romans 12, 1 and 2.

But the challenge for us is to make sure that assimilation is never something we submit to.

Amen. Well, we're not going to have time to address each of the remaining areas addressed in Hemsworth Jonas's book, which include the very important subjects of radical missions, radical marriage, radical labor, and radical perspective.

You'll have to get the book to learn about those issues, as Dr.

Jonas has laid them out in this book. And if you'd like to purchase this book, if you didn't have the opportunity to win it today, or even if you did win it today, and you want to get more copies for those that you love, well, you can go to our sponsors,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com,

and ask for the book by Hensworth Jonas, Radical Discipleship, Uncompromising Conviction in a

Hostile World. And you can make sure you tell them that it is published by Heritage or Reformation Heritage Books, Reformation Heritage Books.

And once again, we want to thank the wonderful folks at Reformation Heritage Books for their generosity today in providing us with giveaway copies to our listeners who submitted questions.

I also want to remind you folks of Dr. Hensworth Jonas's website for the

East Caribbean Baptist Mission, and that's Baptist Antigua, I will never pronounce it the same way that I used to again,

Baptist Antigua, and that's Baptist A -N -T -I -G -U -A .org.

So make sure that you write that down. And please, I urge everyone, take a train, plane, or automobile, however you need to get to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, to hear

Dr. Hensworth Jonas preach at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania at their

Fall Conference for Reformation Month on the subject of sanctification. And Dr.

Jonas will be preaching on Saturday, October 26th and Sunday, October 27th.

For more details, go to the website of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania at gracebfc .com,

gracebfc, for biblefellowshipchurch .com. And right now,

Pastor Josh Miller there at Grace Bible Fellowship Church is still in Africa, and there is no promotional information about this conference up on the website yet, but he assures me it will be up there quickly, so at least you'll have that website to refer to later, and also to get all of the contact information and directions.

That's gracebfc .com. I am certainly going to be there, unless God has other plans, and that is

Saturday and Sunday, October 26th and 27th, Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Well, Dr. Hensworth Jonas, please do not wait another eight years before you come back on the program, and I had a wonderful time, edifying time, challenging time interviewing you.

Please return soon for another interview, and I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner. Have a safe, healthy, joyful, and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.