December 7, 2022 Show with Rob Ventura on “William Burkitt: Introducing a Forgotten 17th Century Theological Giant to a 21st Century Audience”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh day of December 2022.

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest. His name is Rob Ventura.

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He is an author and one of two pastors at Grace Community Baptist Church in North Providence, Rhode Island, and he's an instructor at Rhode Island School of the

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Bible. Today we are going to be addressing the theme, William Burkett, Introducing a

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Forgotten 17th Century Theological Giant to a 21st Century Audience, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rob Ventura.

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Thanks, brother. Great to be with you all. It's great to have you back. For the sake of our listeners who have not heard you on this program or are unfamiliar with you in any other way, tell our listeners about Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island.

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Sure. Grace is a Reformed Baptist church, confessional 1689 congregation.

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They've been Reformed Baptists for probably just under 40 years now, and I've been the full -time pastor there for 15 years now.

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The church was founded by Pastor Sherwood Becker, who went to be with the Lord many years ago now, and I came here to replace him as he called me on the phone and asked if I would do, and I was able to be with him his last few years of ministry, and then since then, again, been full -time in the ministry here.

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I do have a fellow elder who labors hard with me, Pastor Jack Buckley. He's been at the church probably about 19 years now.

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Pastor Jack is bivocational, and it's a wonderful delight to labor with him for the last, well, just over 15 years together.

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It's a great congregation. If you're ever in New England, come and visit us. We love the Word of God, and we love the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Again, if anybody wants more details on Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island, go to gcbcri .org,

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gcbcri .org, and God willing, we'll be repeating that towards the end of the program.

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Just mentioning Rhode Island brings back bittersweet memories.

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My late wife and I had a wonderful vacation in Providence, Rhode Island many years ago, a couple of decades ago, and we didn't even realize that the day after we were scheduled to leave, there was a major jazz festival that we would have loved to have attended, but it's just some beautiful memories.

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I hope to visit there again sometime in this time or next time, visit

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Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence. I was not even aware of its existence back then when

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I visited your fine state. Well, we'd love to have you anytime, brethren.

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Speaking of islands, you're from Long Island, aren't you, just like myself? That's right.

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I forgot you were from Long Island. That's right. We like to say Strong Island. That's how it is.

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Well, at least the guys in the hood call it that anyway. Exactly. Those are the guys

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I used to hang out with before I got converted. And I forget where exactly on Long Island you were from.

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Yeah, so I was born and raised in Hotesville, so I was about 30 minutes from the Hamptons, so Suffolk County.

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So you were Nassau, right? No, I was on the borderline of Nassau and Suffolk.

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I was born and raised in Amityville, Long Island. Right on the borderline.

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That's right. Right next to Massapequa, which is in Nassau County. Oh, I remember the Massapequa Mall.

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Yes. And I also, after 10 years of living in Lindenhurst, after I got married,

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I moved back to Amityville and lived there for a number of years after my parents went to be with the

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Lord and I purchased the house and lived there for a while. But Long Island also always has bittersweet memories because of my late wife.

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And I do try to get out there once a year to visit not only my own former church,

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Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, but also Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, where I have many friends.

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And I hope to get out there in 2023 sometime. Well, we are discussing a figure from history that it is absolutely amazing to me that today he is virtually unknown.

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I mean, he's likely known by most historians and scholars, but William Burkett, who was an

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Anglican theologian, was a great inspiration to some extraordinary men of God who many if not most, if not all of our listeners will recognize.

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The great Puritan William Gurnall, he would be the least recognizable among the names

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I'm going to mention. But Matthew Henry, most of our listeners have heard of Matthew Henry, whether they're

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Reformed or not because of his commentaries. George Whitfield and Charles Haddon Spurgeon all were inspired by William Burkett.

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And in fact, Matthew Henry was inspired to write his own commentaries because of William Burkett.

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So why don't you set up the stage here as to why you are actually involved now in the republishing of William Burkett's expository notes with practical observations on the

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New Testament, and you have written the new forward to it. Yes.

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Let me just jump on a few things you said. So Burkett was a good friend of William Gurnall.

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So both of them, I believe both of them stayed in the Church of England.

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They were Anglicans, as you said, Reformed Anglicans. So we want to be clear about that. They were not

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Puritans. They were in the Puritan timeframe, but they were Reformed Anglicans. And he and Gurnall were buddies.

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And, of course, we all know William Gurnall. We should know William Gurnall from his classic,

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The Christian Incomplete Armor. So when Gurnall died, before he died but when he died, he asked

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Burkett to preach his funeral sermon. So that is striking just to see Burkett, how well he was loved among various people in that particular timeframe, but to preach the funeral sermon of William Gurnall, I mean, what a great honor that must have been.

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And then jumping to Matthew Henry, so what you had at that timeframe, you had Burkett's commentary on the

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New Testament circulating among the Puritans and, again, those in the Church of England, et cetera, and it was well received by the brethren.

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In fact, Henry said that in his day, Burkett's work met with good acceptance among serious people, and I'm quoting him here.

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He said, quote, and no doubt with the blessing of God, it will continue to do great service in the

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Church. So there you've got Burkett's New Testament commentary. Pastors are using it.

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Various ones are using it, just like we use commentaries in our own day to help expound

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Scripture, open up various things, get some good applications, et cetera. So then

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Burkett dies. He goes to glory, and the Church is left just with the New Testament commentary by this excellent evangelical

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Reformed writer. And so then Matthew Henry's friends encourage him to write the

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Old Testament. So that we would now have an Old Testament commentary and a New Testament commentary, again, that we could use just to be a blessing and a tool for ministers of the gospel, et cetera.

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So, of course, Matthew Henry would write the Old Testament and then write much of the New Testament before he went to glory.

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Some of his friends would compile some of his notes and finish out the rest of the New Testament.

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But that's what was going on then. You've got Burkett's New Testament commentary, again, an excellent resource that Henry would be using, and then people say, hey, why don't you, now that he died, why don't you finish it out?

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So, again, we have a complete exposition on the whole word of God. So it's interesting when you read

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Matthew Henry, now understanding a little bit about Burkett and how he used him foundationally for his own commentary, and Burkett's thoughts and style were floating in his own thinking, how when you look now at Matthew Henry, and eventually you'll be able to look at Burkett in a few months, you see how he really was impressed with Burkett's style and influenced with his style, so that when you crack

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Burkett open, you'll see, observe this, observe that, learn this, learn that, and then you read, again, the wonderful Matthew Henry in his commentary.

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You see, it's just like Burkett. So he wasn't original in his style, but he definitely, maybe he was great in what he did, but he definitely got what he got from Burkett, at least in essence and in style.

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So at that time, you also had Matthew Poole, who I believe would come out a little later. Matthew Poole's another great commentary.

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If your listeners want, again, some good Puritan reform, very applicable commentaries, then you get, of course,

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Matthew Henry. That would be the first one, and you'd want to get the five -volume set as opposed to the abridged unless you just want some short reading, but typically

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I encourage the five -volume set, or maybe it's even six volumes, Hendrickson Publisher, and then you get

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Matthew Poole, which is three volumes, and Matthew Poole, rather, is much more pithy, as Spurgeon said, and between the two, you generally had really good exposition of the whole

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Bible. Well, enter William Burkett now, and Burkett, actually, in my perspective, fits very nicely between the two.

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Poole is very pithy. Matthew Henry is very wordy. But William Burkett is kind of a nice balance between the two.

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He's more than Poole in his comments, but he's less than Matthew Henry. So I'm just thrilled to have another commentary to fit that slot.

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So we've got this nice trilogy, as it were, of Puritan -esque writing, reformed expository notes, etc.

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So it's really fantastic, but that's some of the historical background of what was going on at that time.

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Well, I'm so thrilled, also, that you are collaborating with my very dear friend,

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Mike Gaydosh, of Solid Ground Christian Books on this project. Oh, yeah. And Mike is my very first pastor as an evangelical

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Christian. He is the one that plunged me into the waters of baptism, and we have remained dear friends to this day.

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And he is one of the prominent sponsors of this program. Without Solid Ground Christian Books, I doubt we would be airing this interview right now.

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So thrilled that you're working with him on this. Also, to let our listeners know, especially our reformed listeners, will readily recognize immediately some of the modern -day brethren who have provided their glowing recommendations for this two -volume set of 1 ,000 pages total, which is expected to be in print again in March of 2023.

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But some of these modern names that have written glowing commendations are

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Dr. Joel Beeke, Derek Thomas, Michael A .G.

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Haken, and Ian Hamilton, just to name some of the more recognizable names that are raving about this masterful two -volume work.

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And why do you think it is that so many of us who are not

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Anglican, who are Reformed Baptists, who are Presbyterian, and even those from outside of the

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Reformed faith, have gleaned so much and consider their literary heroes men, and many of the folks who consider these men their literary heroes, might not even know that they were

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Anglican. Why is it that the Church of England, especially in centuries past, not to exclude anybody who is writing today who is biblically sound, but in centuries past there has been such a treasure trove of literature that has come from the

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Church of England. Why do you think that is? Yeah, I mean, so you've got a guy like J .C. Ryle, for example, all right?

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I mean, he's just absolutely fantastic, or J .I. Packer. So you've got guys who remained in the

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Church, and yet they were real Christians and loved the Lord, and they had an experiential

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Calvinism, and God used them greatly. I mean, I recommend J .C. Ryle all the time, and Packer also on some things.

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So, I mean, it's obviously a huge church, and with any denomination, you're going to have great men of God in that group, in that denomination that are going to be used of God.

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And, of course, Evangelical, Reformed, and, of course, Church of England, Anglican Church.

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I mean, this is a mixed bag, but these guys are the cream of the crop. These are solid,

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Reformed, Evangelical men that have blessed the Church for really centuries.

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I mean, just jumping back to Burkett himself, Spurgeon recommended that his ministerial students give, quote, attentive perusal to Burkett's commentaries.

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Spurgeon called it a goodly volume, and then, again, going back historically, George Whitefield testified how

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Burkett's commentary helped him to understand free grace and the necessity of being justified in God's sight by faith only.

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So, again, these guys were brothers in the Lord that God raised up to do good to the

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Church of the Lord Jesus Christ worldwide, and for that we should thank God, and, you know, one day in glory we'll probably thank them.

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Amen. If anybody wants to find out more information about this two -volume set, which will be, as I said, not available until March of 2023,

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God willing, but if you want a pre -publication discount, go to solid -ground -books .com,

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solid -ground -books .com, and this rare two -volume 1 ,000 -page set is only $79 .95.

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It lists for $120, so you're getting an excellent discount off of this, and it is an oversized hardcover set.

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I'm hoping that oversized really means that the typeface is readable, because I just was so blessed,

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I was so thrilled that the widow of a very dear friend of mine,

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Pete Padre, who at one time was a conservative, evangelical, and Reformed pastor of a church in a liberal denomination in Spanish Harlem, Church of the

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Good Neighbor. He was there when I first met Pete, and he went home to be with the Lord about a year ago now, but his widow gifted me with John Gill's commentaries.

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I was so thrilled about that, but since I'm 60 years old and require reading glasses, the typeface in this commentary by Gill is microscopic in order to fit it in,

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I think, its four volumes. But is the oversized reference to the fact that it is going to be readable?

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Yes, yes, yes. So let me talk about Mike Gaydosh just a bit. You mentioned in the outset how you would think historians would know who

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Burkitt was, and that's true, but I've got to be honest. I searched for weeks to find people who knew who

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Burkitt was, and most did not. Ninety -eight percent of the people did not, and I did check with some historians.

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I was kind of shocked, actually. So what happened is that Burkitt's work, just turn of the century, 1800s, 19th century, his work just stopped getting reprinted.

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So people haven't seen him in a good while. So, I mean, you'd have to really be into church history and especially

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Reformed Anglicans to know who Burkitt was. I just happened to stumble upon him online, and his commentary is online, but the link that it's connected to, it always jams up my computer, and it gives trouble, and reading it is not always so easy.

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So I was being blessed by this guy, and I'm like, man, who is he? Well, I started researching, reached out to Dr.

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Beeky, who's heard of him. He sent me some stuff, and then I spoke to other guys. Nobody knew who he was.

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I reached out to my very good friend, Lee McKinnon, and Lee actually used to be part of a bookstore in Ireland, and he said, yeah,

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I remember Burkitt, and I still use him online. And then I said, well, okay, that's great.

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I got one guy who knows who he was, and then I called Mike Gaydosh because Mike is always printing older stuff, and I said, hey, do you know this guy,

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William Burkitt? He says, oh, I love Burkitt, and I said, well, this is great, and I want to go ahead and reprint it, would he be interested in doing it, and he was all for it.

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So as far as the printing itself, it will be a nice typeface, and it will be of a size that you'll be able to see it readily.

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If you have Mike Gaydosh's two volumes on Hebrews, I believe, by William Gouge, Mike published that as well, that is very clear on the page, and we're going to pretty much follow that same type set and print, et cetera.

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So it's going to be a beautiful, a beautiful two -volume set. Mike was actually able to get a two -volume set of Burkitt that was super clean.

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We were on the phone. He was able to find it, and Mike was jamming away, and he's like, oh, I found two volumes. He purchased those from someone wherever they were, was able to get them to his house, and just said to me, these are excellent, super great shape.

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So it's going to be very clear to read. I mean, I'm not quite 60 yet, but I am getting there, and yeah, we need some real clarity when it comes to print.

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So Chris, I think you'll be able to read it very easily as well as your listeners. And so glad that it will be published in hardback.

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Yes. That is another blessing, so that will last a long time.

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And what is it about Burkitt? I mean, I'm sure that there are a lot of things that could not fit in this two -hour interview, but what is it about Burkitt that captured the hearts, minds, and souls of people like William Gurnall and Matthew Henry and George Whitefield and Charles Spurgeon that made him stand out?

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And the follow -up question is, how on earth did he fall out of common knowledge amongst

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Christians, even well -read ones? Yeah, it's a great question. I think what stands out about Burkitt, for me at least, is, again, it's just experiential

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Calvinism. It's just warm. It's to the heart. Actually, in Burkitt's own work, he tells us that he wrote his commentary so that families could use it during family worship.

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Could you imagine? So, he made it super practical so that moms and dads can, you know, break open a text and have

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Burkitt's comments there. Again, which points are pithy. Other points, they're outlining. And then, almost at all points, they're heart -driven.

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They're to the heart. They're to the conscience, to the mind. So, I just think he stands out for those type of reasons.

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I mean, I've got a few thousand books in my library. Any book I'm preaching on, whether it's Romans or Philippians, as I'm doing now,

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I generally have 85 -plus commentaries on any given book that I preach on because I love to study, love to see the comments of other people after I've done my own study, etc.,

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etc. However, I can read all of those various commentaries, and they're good for different reasons, whatever it might be, the exegesis, the

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Greek work. But then I pull Burkitt, and it's like to the heart. It's to the conscience. It's to the mind.

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I'm like, this guy is so, so, so good. So, when you're preaching, you want various commentaries, some to, again, motivate your feet to walk in the ways of obedience, others to warm your heart, others to just instruct your mind, as a lot of Greek -based commentaries will do.

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So, people ask me, what's the best comment to get in this book? I say, get them all. Get them all. But now,

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I'll be able to say, get Burkitt also because, again, he does what very few individuals were able to do.

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Make the text practical. Make it warm to the heart so that people will love the

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Lord Jesus Christ and want to obey him with all that they've got. As far as it falling out of vogue among people and all that, this is how it goes.

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Various publishers will pick up a work and maybe just whatever. Sales were not what it needed to be at a certain point in history, and then it just never got picked up again.

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Somebody, thankfully, was smart enough to put it online. But as a pastor, generally speaking,

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I'm not really an online guy. I mean, going back and forth, all that kind of stuff. I want to hold a book in my hand.

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I want to wrestle with that book. I want to highlight that book. And again, the link to Burkitt, it has jammed up my computer several times.

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I'm not sure if it's a bootleg link, if there's such a thing as that. But whatever the case is, yeah, we needed this thing in Hartbeck.

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And again, I'm thrilled that Mikey Gadosh is going to put it out. Amen. And we're going to our first station break, if you have a question for Rob Ventura.

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Since he is a pastor, we would open up the floor for any question on theology or pastoral concerns, but we would especially love for you to ask questions about this forgotten 17th century theological giant,

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William Burkitt. But we, as I said, will invite any of your questions that are involving the scriptures, doctrine, theology, history, pastoral concerns.

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The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence. And I would like to remind my guest, Rob Ventura, to mute himself during the breaks, because the entire audience will hear every noise you make.

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That's royaldiadem .com, royaldiadem .com. We are now back with our guest today,

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Rob Ventura. He is one of two pastors at Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island, and an instructor at Rhode Island School of the

37:05

Bible. We are discussing William Burkett, introducing a forgotten 17th century theological giant to a 21st century audience.

37:14

And we are also talking about the project that my guest is working on with Mike Adosh, my dear friend and my very first pastor as a born -again believer at Solid Ground Christian Books, one of the most prominent sponsors of this show.

37:32

They are bringing back into print the two -volume commentary, William Burkett, Expository Notes with Practical Observations in the

37:39

New Testament. It's two volumes, 1 ,000 pages in total, hardback, and a large size.

37:48

So I can't wait to purchase my own set and get some for gifts as well.

37:56

Let's see. We have here Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, has a question for you.

38:03

How do you respond to those critics of the use of commentaries when they say if the

38:11

Bible is easy enough to understand on important issues and the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture is true, why do we depend so much on these commentaries?

38:25

I am not arguing that we should not, but there are those among us in the body of Christ who do.

38:33

Yeah, it's a very good question. I would argue back with whoever is bringing this up to the brother who wrote in the question and say according to Paul, God has given teachers to the church.

38:49

And because God has given teachers to the church, looking at Ephesians 4 here, we ought to benefit from those teachers.

38:57

We ought to learn from those teachers, again, whether it was Calvin or Luther or Spurgeon or Whitefield or Edwards, et cetera.

39:06

So Paul anticipated, and he himself gave some to be apostles and evangelists and pastors, teachers, et cetera.

39:14

Well, God has done that all throughout the generations, and he's raised up, again, great luminaries like a

39:21

Calvin or a Burkitt or an Edwards or a Spurgeon, et cetera, to be a blessing to the church.

39:26

And I believe that it's really the height of arrogance for us not to avail ourselves to their wonderful instruction.

39:33

So we have our Bibles, of course. We have the light that God gives us, of course. As I mentioned in the outset, before I ever check a commentary,

39:41

I'm always firstly seeking the Lord in prayer. Then I break open my Greek New Testament or my

39:47

Hebrew Old Testament Bible. I do all my own work there, and then I formulate my own sermons, and I do all of that work.

39:53

Once that's all done, then I go and check the commentators, who really become, as it were, a check and balance on my own information that I've put out, my own instruction.

40:06

And the wonderful thing about having great commentaries is that you see the witness of the church throughout 2 ,000 years of just there's a unified voice.

40:17

And 98 percent of the commentaries and commentators are all saying the same thing, some saying them in different ways, some in better ways.

40:25

But it's wonderful to be able to look at a passage of Scripture after you've studied it and then check again,

40:31

Birkhead or somebody else, and say, Man, you know, or Calvin, he sees the exact same thing.

40:37

Now typically with these great lights such as Calvin or Birkhead or Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, at least for a guy like me,

40:43

I'll be like, Man, that's much better than I thought or said it. And I can learn from this guy and or quote him in my own sermon.

40:51

So, again, God has never called us to study the Bible alone. And he's given these wonderful men of God throughout history to instruct us in the things of God.

41:03

I recall one time I was speaking with Warren Worsby. Remember Warren Worsby, Chris?

41:09

Oh, yeah. So he was a classic Bible guy, Bible hour. Now when you say was, is he not still with us?

41:18

I think Worsby passed away. I could be wrong. I think he passed away. He was definitely up there in age.

41:25

And when I spoke to him, yeah, so you could double check that, you know, but yeah. So I believe he went to be with the

41:31

Lord. I could be wrong. And in that case, I hope at least for our sake, it's wrong for his sake. I hope it's right.

41:38

But I remember speaking to him on the phone one time and I told him, you know, Mr. Worsby, I've never heard you preach before.

41:44

And he says, well, Rob, you haven't missed much. And I thought that was a nice, humble response. And then

41:49

I said, you know, but I really appreciate your commentary on some levels. It's evangelical.

41:54

Obviously, I would disagree with a couple of things here and there. But he said to me, you know, Rob, when it comes to commentaries, he says we all milk from many cows, but we make our own butter.

42:08

So, you know, this is commentaries, right? They're all like, you know, cows. We all milk from many cows, whether, again, it's

42:14

Spurgeon or Burkitt or Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole. But at the end of the day, we make our own butter.

42:20

So that sermon is mine. But I gleaned from Burkitt. I gleaned from Henry. I gleaned from, you know,

42:25

Calvin. And all of that helps our sermons, I think, to be as clear as they can be and as useful as they can be.

42:33

So, yeah, it's not just enough to say I've got, you know, myself, my Bible. I've got the Holy Ghost.

42:38

I'm good to go. I think it's the height of arrogance for people who say that. It's kind of like the Church of Christ, the

42:44

Bible only, right? So we don't use confessions of faith. We've got our Bibles. We're good to go. Yeah, well, the Church of Christ is a heretical group which teaches baptismal regeneration.

42:52

And that's why we don't despise, for example, confessions of faith, which really are a commentary on the

42:58

Bible. No, we rejoice that we put forth those things most surely believed among us.

43:03

And we are unashamed of those things. And we see that as we check Church history, all

43:09

Christians have believed these same things, and they were not afraid or ashamed to put them out in historic confessions of faith.

43:15

Same thing again with commentaries. Commentaries are an excellent source for the preacher to glean from other men.

43:23

And in the multitude of counselors, there's safety. And I would say that if a guy is, you know, preaching a text, and he comes up with some idea, i .e.,

43:33

an interpretation on a text of Scripture that nobody else over 2 ,000 years of Christian witness has seen that in the text or, you know, even comes close to it, you probably want to be careful about putting out that particular interpretation because the

43:47

Word of God tells us there's nothing new under the heavenlies, right? So for us to be coming up with some, you know, idea about something that's just kind of like, hmm, never heard of that before, really, we should be careful.

43:58

Matter of fact, our people should never quite be saying, hmm, I never heard of that before. We want them to say, you know what,

44:04

I've heard that before, and based on your exegesis, it looks like I've heard it wrong in the past.

44:09

Now I hear it right, and I'm thankful for that. I had a woman say that to me last week at church.

44:14

Pastor, I've been taught that text wrongly all my life. Now I see it correctly in its context.

44:20

Well, praise God. But there should be nothing unique, as it were, about our interpretations of Scripture.

44:25

No, we've got a full body of witness. And again, this is because Paul tells us that the

44:31

Lord Jesus Christ, in his kindness, has given teachers to the church. So therefore, we want to avail ourselves to those good teachers.

44:40

I'm talking about solid evangelical teachers who have blessed us by putting their understanding of Scripture in commentaries.

44:51

And you are absolutely correct, Warren. Warren Wiersbe did go home to the Lord in 2019.

44:58

And I was confusing him with Erwin Lutzer, because they both pastored the Moody Church at some point.

45:06

Although Erwin Lutzer is a thoroughgoing Calvinist. And in fact,

45:11

I look forward to having Erwin on my program at some point. He's a good man. Yes, he is. Well, let's see.

45:19

Oh, and one thing I just wanted to add, and I'm sure you agree, that when we use commentaries and we glean from and make use of the works of great

45:32

Christians of history and even of our modern day, we must prayerfully make sure that we are always behaving as the

45:40

Bereans did. And we are to treat these great men as our servants in learning the

45:49

Scripture. Not as our masters. We cannot make idols out of them. And we cannot become their slaves and change or even adopt theological positions merely because we are so impressed by these men and fall in love with them as our heroes that we just say, well, if they're right on many things, they're right on everything.

46:14

That's a great point, Chris. So I tell people I don't go to commentaries to get my theology. That's what I went to seminary for.

46:20

So that's why I can use a guy like, who did I just mention? What was his name? Who you said we said passed away?

46:27

Warren Wiersbe. Exactly. Wiersbe. So he's a dispensational, four -point

46:33

Calvinist probably. So yeah, with Wiersbe again. Not now. He's a five -pointer now.

46:39

No, now he's a five -pointer. He's a glory. He's a 10 -pointer actually after this. But he, yeah, so his commentary is, again, not all that Matthew Henry's or Burkitt's would be at least theologically, but he was a good commentator.

46:52

It's probably the first commentary I got about 25 years ago. But he's an evangelical. So again, he had good stuff to say and some good illustrations here and there.

47:01

So anyone who's evangelical I can learn from. But I don't ever go to commentaries for my theology. As I said, that's what

47:06

I went to seminary for. And here I'll give a good plug for Reform Baptist Seminary because I'm very thankful for the education

47:12

I got. So I know what I believe before I go to the commentaries. And if you don't know what you believe before you go to the commentaries, you can definitely get a bit messed up because obviously at certain points there's going to be some variations of theological understanding, whether it's

47:25

Calvinism or dispensationalism versus covenantalism, et cetera. But evangelical is the standard.

47:33

And I think generally speaking we can learn from anyone, again, whether it's a Warren Wiersbe or a

47:38

John Calvin. These are our brothers. And as you correctly said, they are our servants for Christ's sake. Amen.

47:46

And one of the reasons I brought that up is that I actually personally know. Now, please, all of my

47:53

Presbyterian and Pato Baptist brethren, I'm not saying this as an insult to you. I love you and you know that I interview probably more

48:00

Presbyterians than Reform Baptists on this program. But I have actually met, and I'm not making this up or exaggerating,

48:08

I have met and know people, some of whom I knew very well, who have actually told me that they converted to a

48:17

Pato Baptist position merely because Calvin believed it, Owen believed it, et cetera, et cetera.

48:24

And I would not even be happy if somebody said, well, I'm a Baptist now because Charles Spurgeon was and that's good enough for me.

48:31

I wouldn't be happy about that either. Right. And one thing I wanted to interject, just because of the fact that I have interviewed a couple of these folks, the

48:43

Church of Christ is not monolithic. There are actually, believe it or not, some congregations that have adopted

48:50

Reformed theology. I'll praise God for that. So not all of their ministers and congregations are heretical.

48:56

I do know that there are indeed some raw Pelagian ministers and scholars and Pelagians and members of the

49:06

Church of Christ who really don't even believe in the necessity of grace, even if they never phrased it that way.

49:15

But I do know some good, solid men. I just wanted to throw that out there. That's good.

49:21

And mainly I was speaking against baptismal regeneration. But with any group, of course, you can get congregations that they just say they're not holding to that, and for that we bless

49:31

God. Let me just read a footnote I've got in my forward for Burkitt. I say here, my commendation of this volume does not imply complete agreement with all of Burkitt's theological comments.

49:42

However, because my overall differences are so few, I can recommend him enthusiastically.

49:48

And I put that in there because, you know, Burkitt is a staunch

49:53

Pato Baptist. So as a Reformed Baptist, I'm like, ugh, ugh, ugh on a few texts that, you know, he believes highlights infant baptism.

50:04

So, you know, again, this would be like me discovering Matthew Henry or Matthew Poole or Calvin. What am I, not going to put it out because, you know, they hold to a different perspective than I do regarding baptism?

50:15

Of course not. I disagree with that particular position. But, again, we love our

50:21

Pato Baptist brethren. I mean, I called all my friends who are Pato Baptist and asked them to endorse this book, again, whether it was

50:29

Beaky or Derek Thomas or Ian Hamilton. Those are great men of God of whose, you know, shoes

50:34

I'm unworthy to tie or untie in that case. So, no, we're very thankful for them.

50:40

But, yeah, we disagree with a few things. But overall, there's so much wonderful agreement.

50:45

And we're indebted to our Pato Baptist brethren that I have no problem putting forth an excellent work like William Burkett.

50:54

And we have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, one of our most valued listeners. He's a monthly supporter of this program, sometimes a bimonthly and sometimes a trimonthly supporter.

51:06

Grady says, Greetings, brothers. Did Burkett have any other works that are available? Yeah, you can

51:14

Google online. He did write several works, other works, and I don't know if any of them are out at this point.

51:21

He had something like a directive to families for family worship. Again, he was big time into the family, which

51:26

I really like. As I said earlier, this commentary was actually written for family devotions.

51:31

But, again, Matthew Henry, his commentary comes out of his family devotions and turned into a commentary. So he does have other works.

51:38

You can Google him and you'll see those listed probably Wikipedia and other places put them forth.

51:44

And I may get into those at some point, but you know how it is. It's one work at a time. As you know,

51:50

Chris, speaking of works, we have the new exposition of the London Baptist Confession of Faith coming out in January.

51:56

And then at the end of next year, I've got my Romans commentary coming out. So Burkett just happened to squeeze himself in between these two works.

52:02

And I'm very grateful, again, that we discovered him. And Mike G. is going to be able to get him out by March.

52:10

Great. Well, thanks, Grady. And we are going to our midway break right now. The midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

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FCC to air their own public service announcements and other local things to Lake City, Florida, that geographically connect their programming to Lake City, Florida.

52:37

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely.

52:43

Write down as much of the information for as many of our advertisers as you can during this break so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

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And not only does that mean whenever possible purchasing their products, using their services, supporting their parachurch organizations, and visiting their churches.

53:03

But when you can't do any of that, there's one thing that anybody listening can do. If they really love the show, please contact our advertisers and say, thank you for sponsoring

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and fill in the blank. It means so much to me.

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I love to listen to it every day. It transformed my thinking on and on and on. We could go. If you really love the show and you don't want it to disappear, we have our advertisers largely to thank.

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So please thank them so that they will be so encouraged that our listeners are actually valuing where they're spending their money that they will renew their advertising contracts with us.

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So please do that. And also, of course, send in your questions to Rob Ventura, to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

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ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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It leaves a lot to be desired. It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine.

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Much less, it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible. Hi there.

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May God bless you. It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

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He really loves hearing interviewed. Dr. Joe more craft. I am

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Joe, Ryan, orange, sharpens, iron radio listener. I'm a toy in County, Kildare, Ireland sent you.

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This is pastor bill. So grace church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens, iron radio financially grace church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole council of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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If you have more questions about grace church, our website is grace church at Franklin .org.

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That's grace church at Franklin dot O R G. This is pastor bill.

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So wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord God, savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

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01:12:08

Before I return to Rob Ventura and our discussion on William Burkett, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

01:12:16

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01:15:06

Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically sound Christ -honoring, theologically solid doctrinally faithful church like Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island, well,

01:15:20

I have extensive lists spanning the globe and I may be able to help you find a church near you, no matter where on the planet

01:15:28

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01:15:35

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01:15:42

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send a question to Rob Ventura of Grace Community Baptist Church of North Providence, Rhode Island.

01:15:52

We are discussing William Burkitt, but we will also take any theological, doctrinal, or pastoral question and we have such a question that is off topic from Cindy in Findley, Ohio.

01:16:11

She says Hello Chris and Pastor Ventura. I recently heard R .C. Sproul say that when

01:16:18

God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit that he would die, that God meant physically.

01:16:26

I've been told in the past and numerous times that he meant spiritually. Well, we know that they did die spiritually, but if R .C.

01:16:36

is correct, that meant that God meant they would die physically. How can we explain this without accusing

01:16:43

God of being a liar? Well, before you even answer, Adam and Eve both died physically too.

01:16:50

But if you want to answer that question yourself Pastor Rob? It's clear to me that both are true.

01:16:59

That day, the very day you will surely die was spiritual, but physical death was a consequence of their rebellion as well.

01:17:08

So from Genesis 3 onward, you see how life expectancy, as it were, just continues to go down and down and down and down.

01:17:15

People are living hundreds of years, hundreds of years, but when you bring that to our day, 21st century, that's not how it goes.

01:17:22

We get three score and whatever it is, so people are 70, 75, 80, 85, but it's much less, biblically speaking, historically speaking.

01:17:30

So the curse has come upon the earth, it's come upon mankind, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

01:17:39

So Sproul was right in that, but I think we would all agree, contextually speaking, but when

01:17:45

Moses says, there God, as Moses records it, and God saying in the narrative, the day you will die, it was clearly a spiritual death.

01:17:56

Right, obviously, because we have their banishment out of the Garden of Eden and all that, so they didn't die instantly, but they did die eventually.

01:18:05

Thank you. Oh, and Cindy also has a question for me. When am I expected to receive the free copy of Jeff Thomas' autobiography,

01:18:16

In the Shadow of the Cross, that I won when I sent in a question when you interviewed

01:18:21

Jeff recently? You'll, God willing, get that within a couple of weeks, maybe sooner. I was just at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service today, who ships those out, and they do have you on the list, and they are intending to make that shipment very soon.

01:18:38

They like to gather a lot of winners' mailing addresses together, which means multiple books, multiple different books that people have won, because apparently it is a lot cheaper for them to mail these shipments out when there are a greater number of them.

01:18:58

Just to let you know, and anybody else that may be waiting and wondering why they haven't received their book, thanks for being patient with us, folks.

01:19:10

Let's see, we have a question from Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, and Joseph says that among all the commentaries available to Christians in the 21st century, obviously you would highly recommend

01:19:30

Birkett's volumes, but are there any others that you would include in that recommendation as being first choices of yours personally?

01:19:42

Yeah, that's a great comment. So there are, thankfully, evangelicals have done a good job over the last 20 years in writing really excellent commentaries and Greek -based commentaries.

01:19:53

For a long time the liberals were doing that, that was a crying shame, but the evangelicals have done a great job.

01:19:58

So several of the wonderful sets are the Baker Exegetical Series, really outstanding, the

01:20:04

Zondervan Exegetical Series, very, very helpful, the New International Greek Testament, also known as the

01:20:11

NIGNT, really, really excellent, the Pillar Commentary, really, really excellent, just great stuff in there.

01:20:19

So those are the four main sets that I would strongly recommend, those are excellent.

01:20:25

There's also a new one, it's called, this is how people refer to it, the EGNT, and that's a very high -level technical commentary, but if you know

01:20:35

Greek, that is a series that you want to get, it's the Exegetical Commentary, I forget exactly what the letters break down for,

01:20:47

I'm actually at my desk here looking to see if I could find it on my desk, let me see here, oh, here it is right here in front of me.

01:20:54

Yeah, so the EGNT, it's the Exegetical Guide to the New Testament, and that's

01:20:59

General Editors Andreas Kastenberger and Robert Yarbrough, so excellent,

01:21:04

I'm using on Philippians, so if you know Greek, Greek is a must for that series. The EGNT and for the others, whether it's

01:21:12

Pillar or Zondervan, those, or Baker, those are pretty straightforward. For the

01:21:17

NIGNT series, New International Greek Testament, definitely some Greek is needed, but those are excellent, excellent sets, and I'm very thankful that in our day there are a plethora of good commentaries coming out that are very accessible for pastors and preachers alike.

01:21:34

Yeah, you just reminded me, I've got to get Andreas Kastenberger back on the program, I've interviewed him a number of times and always am the better for it, brilliant brother and humble brother, love having him on the show.

01:21:48

Thank you Joseph for the excellent question, and let's see, oh, we have

01:21:58

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says you mentioned earlier that William Burkett was a

01:22:05

Reformed Anglican, but not a Puritan. What were the major distinctions between the

01:22:11

Reformed Anglicans and the Puritans? Yeah, so the Puritans were basically ejected from the

01:22:20

Anglican church, so you had the whole issue going on there at that time, the act of non -conformity, so the

01:22:30

Puritans were not willing to accept everything that was going on in the church of England. They felt that the church of England, the

01:22:36

Anglican church had gone only so far, but the Puritans wanted to see the church go much further.

01:22:42

It wouldn't do that, so you had the great ejection where 2 ,000

01:22:47

Puritan ministers left the church of England, and basically they had to fend for themselves.

01:22:54

It was a very difficult time for the Puritans, but the Puritans were willing to go as far as the

01:22:59

Bible took them. Again, they felt that the church of England at that time was not willing to reform, especially its worship, hence you have the great confessions coming out,

01:23:09

Westminster, etc., even, of course, for the Puritan Baptists, the 1689 setting forth, for example, regulative worship, so only what

01:23:19

God commands we do. So while there were, again, good men within the Anglican church, whether it was

01:23:27

Gurnall or J .C. Ryle or J .I.

01:23:32

Packer, there were good men still that remained in the church, but the

01:23:38

Puritans, again, I believe, and I think many others would agree, that they were willing to follow the scripture as far as the scripture took them.

01:23:46

So differences among them, again, worship I think would be one of the main things.

01:23:52

Certainly some in the church of England would, I think, waffle on Calvinism, and you did have, even in the church of England, some baptismal regeneration existing, so yeah, it's a mixed bag.

01:24:06

Whenever you have a huge denomination like that with millions of people, you're going to have millions of different thoughts, but with the

01:24:13

Puritans, their thinking by and large was really quite similar, and personally

01:24:19

I believe was much better than many that were remaining in the church of England, but again, thankfully you had good men in there and one of those good men was

01:24:29

William Birkett. And it would have been primarily over the issue that we now call regulative principle, correct?

01:24:39

Because I mean, even the fact that the

01:24:45

Book of Common Prayer is considered and valued as a beautiful document, and it's gone through many changes over the centuries, but it's even valued by those who are not

01:25:01

Anglican, but there's a difference between valuing it and mandating its use, and that would be a violation of the regulative principle in the minds of many, including

01:25:12

Puritans, right? Absolutely. And again, within the Anglican church, you had the 39 articles as they put forth, and those articles are really excellent.

01:25:22

So again, there were good things that were happening there in the church, good reformed doctrine and teaching, which the

01:25:29

Puritans were blessed by and sat under, but ultimately again, their consciences would not allow them to continue, and neither would the church.

01:25:38

So again, you had the Great Ejection, and in that sense I'm thankful, because in that sense the

01:25:44

Puritans were purified and they really put forth excellent biblical doctrines that were still being blessed by in the 21st century.

01:25:54

Amen. Well, we still invite questions from our listeners on William Burkett, but we also know, or at least

01:26:05

Rob and I know, that there are other projects that he is working on that he's very excited about, and I don't want the time to slip away from us without him mentioning some of those projects that we should be waiting with bated breath to see come to fruition and to come into print again, so why don't you tell us about some of these things that we should be expecting in 2023.

01:26:31

Yes, first and foremost, and we had an interview about it I believe some months ago, Chris, a new exposition of the

01:26:36

London Baptist Confession of Faith. And that was outstanding, appreciate you for that. And yeah, so we're going to have a new exposition of our wonderful Puritan Confession of Faith by the

01:26:49

Puritan Baptist in the 1600s, originally written in 1677, but then published in 1689, so we have that outstanding exposition of our confession that was done about 30 years ago by Dr.

01:27:02

Sam Waldron, my very dear friend, just on the phone with him the other day, and he did the Church a great service in expounding that confession, he did an outstanding job,

01:27:11

I recommend that all the time and I felt, however, that it was time for a new one, for an updated one, so I actually reached out to Sam and said, hey, what do you think about us doing a new one, or me doing a new one as the general editor, and getting a bunch of guys other than just you, a bunch of other guys now to contribute to it, and he thought it was an excellent idea, and he contributed three chapters to the new work, but now

01:27:38

I've got just a bunch of guys who are very well known among the Reformed Baptist world, such as Jeremy Walker, and Brian Borgman, other guys,

01:27:48

Jim Dom, and Gary Hendrix was in there as well, John Price, John Ruther, again, just lots of guys,

01:27:56

Dave Chansky, and again, Sam Waldron did several chapters for me, so that book is due out

01:28:02

January 17th, Mentor Books is publishing the new exposition of the London Baptist Confession of Faith, and that book is going to go around the world, it already has three different foreign publishers who want to publish it in different languages, its chapters have been on Reformation 21 throughout this past year, and we just got the first review from it by a guy named

01:28:26

Matt Foreman, who really, really liked it, so a lot is going to be said about that book in the next several weeks,

01:28:32

I'm very thankful for it, Dr. Beeky will put an email out on it, they bought multiple copies, Westminster's looking at it now,

01:28:39

Mikey Gaydosh, of course, will be pushing it, so super excited about the 1689, it's wonderful for us as Reformed Baptists to have multiple expositions of our

01:28:49

Confession of Faith, to date we only have one, essentially, by Sam Waldron, 30 years old, now we have another one, also our dear brother

01:28:56

Jim Renahan, he's got one on 1644, and then the 1689 as well, coming out,

01:29:02

I believe, is 1689, one comes out in February, so this is good stuff for us as Baptists, if you look at the

01:29:08

Presbyterians they've got multiple commentaries, expositions, if you will, of the

01:29:14

Westminster Confession of Faith, so I'm glad to see the Baptists doing some catch -up regarding that, so that's

01:29:20

January, God willing, and then we've got Burkitt in March, and then looking forward to my first commentary coming out on Romans, God willing,

01:29:29

October, November, next year, and again, Mentor Books will be publishing that as well, so excited about that.

01:29:37

And when can we expect the biography of me, that is the sequel to James White's book,

01:29:49

Is the Mormon My Brother?, and the biography of me is Is That Moron My Brother?,

01:29:56

and I've been riding this till the wheels will fall off, because I told that joke many years ago in the introduction of a debate

01:30:05

I had featuring James White, but I just couldn't resist bringing that up again.

01:30:12

One thing I wanted to - Yes, well you are full of good jokes, Chris, trust me, I've heard them before. I wanted to ask you something about, since you brought up Jim Renahan's commentary on the 1644, the first London Baptist confession, that seems to be the favorite of those who endorse

01:30:32

New Covenant theology, and just to make sure everybody knows this, Jim Renahan is a

01:30:38

Covenant Reform Baptist theologian, he is not a

01:30:44

New Covenant believer, and that's in regard to the new use of the term

01:30:50

New Covenant. I have many friends who are New Covenant theologians, and I've interviewed many on the show, and I still cherish their friendship,

01:30:57

I just have some disagreements here and there, but what is it about the 1644 that seems to draw more acceptance from the

01:31:09

New Covenant Calvinist, which is basically a nickname for those who do not believe in the perpetuity of the

01:31:17

Decalogue, and yet believe that nine of the Ten Commandments were reiterated by Christ anyway in the

01:31:23

New Covenant, so I know that people hate for me to say this, but it seems to me to be a Sabbatarian issue primarily, but why is it, how did the 1689 or 1677 as it was originally finished in its writing, how are they different?

01:31:45

Yeah, you really nailed it, Chris, it is a Sabbath issue, so first off we want to give kudos to our

01:31:50

Reformed Baptist brothers who put out the 1644, and it's a fantastic document, very

01:31:57

Christocentric, it's excellent, and I encourage everybody to read it, it's all outstanding, but you've got the 1644, the

01:32:05

First London Baptist Confession of Faith coming out in that year, then you've got 1646, the Westminster coming out, and then 1677, the 1689, and mind you, 1689 is called the

01:32:16

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, so I tell our dear Presbyterian Paedo -Baptist brethren,

01:32:22

I say, look it, you see our Confession of Faith written 1689, the one we hold to, but this is called the

01:32:29

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, I say, you know what year the other one came out? They say, no, I said, 1644, which means it predates the

01:32:37

Westminster by two years, so we're not the new kids on the block, I say, you are, anyway, I joke.

01:32:43

Exactly, but I will say certainly the Reformed Baptists learned a few things from the

01:32:49

Westminster Divines, and I think they helped the Reformed Baptists to clarify their thinking in some key areas, certainly with reference to regular worship, but then secondly, and I think most importantly, as you highlighted, is the

01:33:04

Sabbath, and the perpetuity of the Fourth Commandment, so I think that's absolutely correct, and the 1644 is weaker on the

01:33:11

Sabbath, so then again, you've got Westminster comes out, and you have those great Divines who wrote in it, and I think the

01:33:16

Reformed Baptists looked at that, chewed on it, and embraced it, hence you have in the 1677 -1689

01:33:24

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith a more robust Reformed theology, and I really think that's important to say because, again, you've got guys who are

01:33:32

Calvinistic Baptists, and all that's fine, but we need to go beyond the five points.

01:33:37

Oh, isn't that funny? I edited a book entitled that very thing, Beyond the Five Points, which your buddy

01:33:42

James White wrote the fuller to, so yeah, so it's a good document, the 1644, excellent, but if we want a more robust Reformed theology, the 1689

01:33:56

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith is the place to go. Now how do you respond to our

01:34:02

Presbyterian brethren who at times mean this in a light -hearted spirit, and as a joke, and as an elbow to our ribcage, a gentle elbow to our ribcage, that the 1689

01:34:18

London Baptist Confession of Faith is one of the greatest examples of plagiarism in church history, because it's nearly identical to the

01:34:28

Westminster, as all of us know, who are familiar with the document, but how do you respond to that?

01:34:36

Yeah, so I would say, look, it's hard to improve on an excellent document like the

01:34:43

Westminster Confession of Faith. It's hard to improve on such an excellent document, but as a

01:34:48

Reformed Baptist, I would say the Reformed Baptists certainly did. So they definitely took the two areas where they differed with their

01:35:00

Pato Baptist brethren, and they made it better. They went better with reference to the

01:35:05

Church, which is clearly seen by how many paragraphs we have on our chapter on the

01:35:12

Church versus the Westminster. It's probably three times the size. And of course, the issue of baptism, as Reformed Baptists we believe that believer's baptism is clearly what the

01:35:22

Bible teaches, not only by way of example, but also command. So yeah, I think the

01:35:28

Reformed Baptists, they saw the Westminster. Of course, they already had the 1644, so who's to say that the

01:35:34

Westminster Divines weren't leaning on the 1644? They had these documents, of course. And of course, you also have the

01:35:40

Savoy out around at that time. So anyway, I would just say that, look, they looked at the document, and they didn't copy the thing verbatim.

01:35:48

Clearly they changed words, and they check on their issue with covenants. It's a different perspective at some points.

01:35:55

Adoption, again, different word here and there. So they saw that this was a great document, they adopted it, but they made it better from our perspective in at least two areas.

01:36:04

But remember again, Chris, historically speaking, the Reformed Baptists were not trying to be troublemakers by putting out a new confession of faith.

01:36:12

They were actually, as they say in the introduction to the whole thing, I use this kind of in a modern day language, hi,

01:36:18

Pato Baptist friends, we're trying to let you know on the one hand we're not Arminians, and on the other hand we're not Anabaptists.

01:36:24

They were trying to let them know, we're really just like you, and I think that's important that we see that there was an

01:36:32

Irenic spirit among them. And I think the same should hold forth with us today. Of course you and I like to joke about, you know,

01:36:39

Pato Baptism and all that, but we do it lightheartedly, just like they do with us. But we're indebted to our

01:36:45

Pato Baptist brethren, and most of my books on my shelf are written by Pato Baptists, but at the same time we've got to say that we've got to follow the

01:36:56

Scripture wherever it takes us. And in that sense I would say I believe that the Reformed Baptists are the only true

01:37:01

Reformers, because they were willing to go forth in their understanding of baptism, which

01:37:08

I believe is biblical and clearly squares with Scripture, and also their view of the

01:37:13

Church. So that's why I am a Reformed Baptist, but 98 % of what

01:37:19

I hold to any good Pato Baptist Presbyterian would hold to as well. So there's great affinity there, there should be great thankfulness in our hearts for their documents, but we hold to the 1689 because we've got to be convinced from Scripture what the

01:37:34

Bible says about all areas, and we differ with the Westminster on two major points, hence we have our own confession of faith.

01:37:42

Yes, this was not something done covertly, and where there was intentional plagiarism, it was an intentional olive branch to a degree, not only to show commonality, but also to show how they had biblical convictions that compelled them to change things about Church polity and the ordinances or sacraments.

01:38:11

Absolutely. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, since there were

01:38:20

Baptists who had their own version of the Westminster Confession of Faith, known as the 1689

01:38:28

London Baptist Confession of Faith, were there any Baptists who transformed the three forms of unity into their own

01:38:36

Baptist version? Oh, I know at least not all three forms of unity, but I know that the

01:38:43

Heidelberg Catechism has a Baptist version by Hercules Collins, an Orthodox Christian.

01:38:49

Do you know any other volumes that may exist that might include all three forms of unity?

01:38:55

Yeah, I can't think of, other than what you mentioned, I can't think of anything else, but those are great documents, and I think,

01:39:02

I mean, the Heidelberg is just a wonderful, wonderful document, the Further Reformation, I mean, that's just such experiential

01:39:10

Calvinism, and you know, by our Dutch brethren, so we, all of these things are ours to use.

01:39:18

I mean, I think the Westminster and the London Baptist and the Savoy, they're very doctrinaire in the right sense of the word, but the

01:39:25

Heidelberg is just super warm and devotional and practical. I mean, all these things are for us to use and enjoy, and I think that we ought not to get, you know, all caught up or entangled in debating

01:39:38

Baptism issues all day long and some church polity matters. I mean, again, we can have our differences, that's fine, but there ought to be great agape among all of us.

01:39:49

And that was published, by the way, the Unorthodox Catechism by Hercules Collins.

01:39:55

That was published by Reformed Baptist Academic Press, and I know that you could even get it on Amazon, so a good recommendation.

01:40:05

Thank you, Susan Margaret. We have B .B.

01:40:11

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, Just as you were mentioning earlier, there are critics of those who rely on commentaries in the books of great men, in addition to the

01:40:22

Scriptures, to rightly understand the Bible. There is always some kind of complaint, especially by fundamentalists, about confessionalism.

01:40:31

Can you respond to that? Yeah, that question comes up every single time we address the confessions, any of them, and it is an obvious, it's an excellent question, because it's an obvious critique when people know that we as a people adhere to the

01:40:50

Reformation principle of sola scriptura. They wonder, wait a minute, I thought you believed in Scripture alone, that it's the sola inerrant infallible authority for the church.

01:41:02

Why are you using confession? So why don't you respond to that? Yeah, so sola scriptura does...

01:41:11

Good, I'm sorry, you want to jump, Chris? No, you just cut out. I don't know why.

01:41:17

Repeat what you were saying. I don't know why you went silent just for a couple of seconds. Yeah, so I was saying that sola scriptura does not mean solo scriptura, so that we just have the

01:41:28

Bible only, in the sense that that doesn't mean that we can never learn from anybody else, or we just have to have our own

01:41:35

Bibles. I mean, clearly our own confession of faith says, paragraph 1, sentence 1, the only infallible truth for all faith, life, and practice is the

01:41:46

Bible. So the confessions of faith say that. But to say again, oh, we just have our Bibles, we don't need confessions of faith, again, this kind of goes back to a group

01:41:55

I mentioned earlier, it's the Bible only. But yeah, when you say the Bible only, you're basically saying what our group understands about the

01:42:02

Bible only. But we don't want to cut ourselves off from the body of truth that God has given to us through the church, teachers in the church, again,

01:42:10

Ephesians 4. So to be able to check the historical record, what is justification by faith alone?

01:42:16

What is sanctification? Who is Christ? We're not the first people looking at our Bibles, and it's the height of arrogance to think that we are or we know all that has to be said about these documents.

01:42:25

In fact, when someone starts reading the confessions of faith, they say, man, oh, man, I've never seen such truths as these articulated in this way.

01:42:35

And again, by Christians throughout the centuries, I tell people, you see the number there on that, you know,

01:42:41

I say, that's not the word count, that's the year it was written.

01:42:47

So you see, you had Christians back then holding to those great doctrines that we hold to today.

01:42:55

And it's a glorious thing to be able to see, hey, this is historic

01:43:00

Christianity. We're not new kids on the block, but this is what the church has always believed. And really, any church, fundamentalists or whatever it is, they all have a one -page statement of faith.

01:43:11

So in that sense, they have their own confession. We believe the Bible is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit. We believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.

01:43:18

So they have a one -page confession of faith. We have a 32 -page confession of faith.

01:43:24

But let me quote here from B .H. Carroll, who was a pastor -theologian and the first president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

01:43:32

He put it this way, quote, the modern cry, less creed and more liberty, is a degeneration from the vertebrae to the jellyfish, and means less unity and less morality, and it means more heresy.

01:43:48

He said, quote, definitive truth does not create heresy, it only exposes and corrects.

01:43:55

Shut off the creeds and the Christian world would fill up with heresy unsuspected and uncorrected, but nonetheless deadly.

01:44:06

And that is what has happened in the church today. Churches have gone away from historical biblical

01:44:12

Christianity. That's why we've got all kind of nonsense happening in the broad evangelical church, and it's a crying shame.

01:44:21

And you mentioned the Church of Christ earlier. I was, years ago, sometime in the 90s, visiting at the invitation of a friend a

01:44:33

Bible conference at a Church of Christ congregation, and the scholar leading the discussion said that we as a people in the

01:44:45

Church of Christ have always believed in no creed but Christ, and no confession but the

01:44:53

Scriptures, and I raised my hand during a Q &A, and I said,

01:45:00

I have a church bulletin that is in the lobby of this congregation, and it lists a bunch of things that this congregation believes.

01:45:11

It says that you have exclusively male leadership, that the ministers do not wear clerical garments, but typically wear business suits, that you believe in a plurality of elders, that you only use a cappella worship and no instrumental accompaniment of your hymns, that baptism is conducted by immersion of a believer only, et cetera, et cetera.

01:45:46

I said, that's your confession. That's correct. As John Thornberry once said in a message he gave that was a defense of the use of confessions by Baptists, he was reading an article in the

01:46:05

American Baptist Association magazine at the time that basically had the same statement that we as a people believe there is no creed but Christ, no confession but the

01:46:21

Scriptures, and John wrote to them and said, that is a creed.

01:46:27

It's a creedal statement. A hundred percent. Anytime you're using your own words to explain what you believe the

01:46:38

Bible teaches, you are giving a creedal statement, and you can't escape it. Even if you were to say, you can interpret the

01:46:45

Bible in any way you want, that's a creedal statement. You can't get around it. That's right, because we can say we believe the

01:46:54

Bible, so we say, for example, we believe in Christ. Well, the cults say the same. So which Christ?

01:47:00

We believe the Bible. What is it about the Bible that you believe? As Reformed Baptists, we were not afraid or ashamed or like our

01:47:09

Pato Baptist friends, to put those things in print. Let me just read you something quickly from my preface to the new exposition of the

01:47:15

London Baptist Confession of Faith. I say, it has been correctly said that true Christianity is confessional

01:47:21

Christianity, and that a church with a little creed is a church with a little life. The true church has always confessed her faith openly, for there is a faith which has once for all been delivered to the saints,

01:47:34

Jude 3. As Christians, we should never be ashamed of this fact. Sadly, there is a motto which is proclaimed by some professed believers which says, no creed but the

01:47:43

Bible, like you just said, Chris. The problem with such a slogan is that it completely cuts people off from the body of instruction that God has so wonderfully given to the churches by means of gospel teachers throughout the centuries.

01:47:57

Such a notion, if embraced, leaves an individual with only what one particular group believes and teaches.

01:48:04

This is dangerous and has resulted in many being misled.

01:48:11

Amen. And by the way, if anybody listening would like to hear, I think an excellent interview

01:48:19

I conducted with the aforementioned Dr. Sam Waldron. He gave a warning against abuses in confessionalism.

01:48:31

He himself obviously is a firm confessionalist and wrote the commentary on the 1689, the original one.

01:48:39

But he also knows that sometimes people even in the body of Christ, because we are all sinners, that some too do gravitate towards an unconscious idolatry of the confession.

01:48:54

And we had a discussion, do we still believe in sola scriptura, a word of caution to reform churches and leaders about present -day dangerous paths and slippery slopes on the rise among us?

01:49:04

And if you want to listen to that, just type in Waldron, W -A -L -D -R -O -N, in the

01:49:09

Iron Trip and Zion Radio search engine and that interview from June 17th of 2022 will come up.

01:49:17

We're going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

01:49:30

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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And we want to thank Pastor Alan Dunn and Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey for recently renewing their annual advertising contract with Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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We are forever in your debt, brethren, and I thank God that I can promote such a fine congregation.

01:56:43

We are now back with our guest today, Pastor Rob Ventura. And Rob, if you could now summarize what you most want to etch in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to these very important projects on which you are working.

01:57:00

Well, regarding Birkut especially, five words sums it up. Buy Birkut and be blessed.

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Amen! Yep, there you have it. So I'm just very thankful that in God's providence

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I was able to discover him, and I think he's going to be a real help to ministers and to families around the world with God's blessings.

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As far as everything else, I encourage people to look out for the 1689 in January and then

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I'm sure Chris will talk about Romans down the road when we get closer to that. But also very thankful, brother, for all that you do, laboring for many years.

01:57:36

You mentioned Alan Dunn. Alan's been a close friend for over 25 years. Just love Alan and the

01:57:41

Reformed Baptists and Pedobaptists all around the world are very grateful for you. So thanks for your labors, brother.

01:57:47

Oh, thank you so much for those kind words and that encouragement. And I look forward to having you back on the program many more times in the future.

01:57:58

And I want to remind our listeners, if you want to get a pre -publication discount, a really large pre -publication discount on this book we are addressing, it's normally going to be $120 when it's actually in print, but you will get it for less than $80 if you go to solid -ground -books .com

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I also want to repeat Rob Ventura's church website, which is

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and the Rhode Island School of the Bible can be found at RISBible .org,

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R -I -S for Rhode Island School Bible .org, R -I -S

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Bible .org Thank you so much again, Pastor Rob, you are always a superb guest.

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I want to thank all of you who have listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. I want to remind you about the

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royaldiadem .com and tell them Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio sent you. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater