January 25, 2023 Show with Dr. William Webster AND David T. King on “Saving Faith: How Does Rome Define It?”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 25th day of January 2023.

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I'm absolutely thrilled to have two old, very long time and very close friends on the program today, and their names should not be unfamiliar to most of you in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience. Today, I have the privilege of having back on the program

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Dr. William Webster, who is pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

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He is an author and founder of Christian Resources. And we also have Reverend David T.

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King joining us, who is assistant pastor at Christ Church, which is a Presbyterian Church in America congregation of Katy, Texas, and co -author with Dr.

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William Webster of the monumental three -volume work, Holy Scripture, the

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Ground and Pillar of our Faith, which totals approximately 900 pages of content.

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Today, the three of us will be addressing Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

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And first of all, let me welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. William Webster. Thank you,

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Chris. Good to be here. And David King, it's always great to have you on the program as well.

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Welcome back. Likewise, Chris. It's great to be here. And for the sake of our listeners who have not yet heard you,

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I'll have each of you describe the churches where you serve. If you could,

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Dr. Webster, let our listeners know about Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

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Grace Bible is a Reformed Baptist church. We are right outside of the city of Portland, Oregon, in the state of Washington.

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We've been a church for a little over 20 years and very committed to the principles of the

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Reformation, the authority of Scripture, and the Gospel as revealed in the

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Word of God. And if you want more details on this church, go to gracebiblebattleground .org.

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gracebiblebattleground .org. Now tell us about Christian Resources. Christian Resources is an apologetics ministry

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I started back, let's see, probably 30 years ago. And it deals with, it's basically a defense of the

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Reformation. It deals with major historical issues related to the Reformation and Roman Catholicism.

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The biblical Gospel, the authority of the Word of God, all of the basics of the Reformation, why the

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Reformation is important, necessary. It also deals with the fundamentals of the

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Christian life. It has a lot of research that I've done on historical issues, teachings about how to know the

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Lord, how to walk with Him. There are audio messages, but it's basically a ministry very committed to, again, the principles sola

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Christus, sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura, all for the glory of God.

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Amen. And if anybody wants more details on this ministry, go to christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com.

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And by the way, I just wanted to give a shout out to one of our listeners, and I'm probably going to butcher the city pronunciation,

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Bolly Nahinch in Northern Ireland, Cecil Andrews, who has been a long -distance friend of mine, and I've interviewed him in the past.

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And he is a dear brother and operates Take Heed Ministries there in Northern Ireland.

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He just wanted to encourage our listeners today by saying,

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William Webster's writings have been of immense help to me in my ministry, takeheed .info,

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over the years, and I had the privilege of meeting Bill with my wife Margaret when we were co -ministering with the late

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Richard Bennett in Washington many moons ago. Well, thank you for that, Cecil.

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And now, if you could, Pastor David T. King, tell our listeners about Christ Church of Katy, Texas, where you minister as an assistant pastor.

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Yes, Chris, I have the privilege of serving as an assistant pastor at Christ Church in Katy, Texas, which

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I guess is 25, 30 miles west of Houston, Texas. And we are a

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PCA congregation, and we adhere to the

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Westminster Standards, that is, the confession and the catechisms, both the larger and the shorter.

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And we're the church that really seeks to preach the gospel and to encourage the members of our congregation to become mature disciples of Jesus Christ.

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Praise God. And if you want more details on this church, go to cckpca .org,

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cckpca .org, cck for Christ Church Katy, which is the city in Texas, and pca for Presbyterian Church in America, cckpca .org.

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I'm also thrilled to announce to our listeners, I made the announcement for the first time yesterday, but these two men who

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I am interviewing today are both going to be speakers at the next

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. That's going to be held on Thursday, April 13th at 11 a .m.,

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and absolutely free of charge. And this is only for men in ministry leadership.

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And not only are you going to be getting free admission and having a free meal, but you're also going to be leaving with a very heavy sack of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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United States and the United Kingdom that have been personally selected by me from their catalogs.

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And so it's a no -brainer if you are a man in ministry leadership and are able to travel to Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is in Perry County, Pennsylvania, I strongly urge you to send me an email so that you can find out more details.

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That email is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Immediately following that, over the three days right after the luncheon,

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Friday through Sunday, April 14th through the 16th, these two brothers that I have on the show today are also going to be conducting a

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Bible conference, absolutely free of charge. The Bible conference is open to everyone, men, women, and children, and again, absolutely free.

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The theme of this conference is The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the

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Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals. It is a must, if you can attend this, to make every effort possible to be in attendance, especially since it's free, and you will be blessed and edified, and I'm sure you will leave there with even more ammunition to be even more ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you as a result of attending that three -day conference.

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And again, that's at a different location than the luncheon. That's at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and again, if you have any interest in attending that, and again, this one, unlike the luncheon, is open to everyone, men, women, and children.

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Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put luncheon and conference in the subject line.

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Well, I'm going to give our email address to our listeners right away, in the event that they have questions, primarily on the issue of Roman Catholicism, and also on the true historic theology of the

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Protestant Reformation. Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are a Roman Catholic, and you're beginning to question the beliefs that you were possibly raised in or have clung to for many years, maybe even decades.

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You're starting to question these things. You're starting to hear that the Bible contradicts these teachings of Rome.

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Or perhaps you're even an evangelical, and you realize that the church where you are a member is far from what the legacy of the

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Protestant Reformation has left to us. And more importantly, you have noticed that it is very foreign from what the

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Bible teaches about many things. We would understand that you would want to remain anonymous for those kinds of questions, so please do.

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But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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Well, let me start with you, Bill, since you are the author of the book that we are primarily gleaning from in our discussion today,

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Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It? Give us some bedrock background as to what the

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Church of Rome dogmatically believes and why the

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Reformation was necessary, and also how the constant regurgitation of the

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Church of Rome, that they believe what Christ and his apostles laid down, and that they are continuing the unanimous consent of what the

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Church Fathers believed in regard to crucial issues. And then after you give us some background information on that, we'll have

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David join us with his own comments. But if you could start, Bill. The reason

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I put this book together, and it's an editing, I'm basically an editor on this one.

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I do have some comments through it. My desire, because when you're dealing with the issues of belief systems, you need to accurately define whatever belief system you are dealing with, what they actually stand for and teach.

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There's a lot of confusion that comes into discussions about these issues with respect to history and the

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Reformation and Roman Catholicism, Evangelicalism, Protestantism, if you will.

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As an Evangelical, going back to the heritage of the Reformation, the ultimate authority for what

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I believe and for what the Reformers taught is the written Word of God. It is

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Sola Scriptura. It is the revelation that we possess of God, of what is true, of what the need of salvation is, of how that need is met through the person of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and how that becomes an experience that is real and true in the life of a sinner to be reconciled to God.

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This is what the issue is all about. It's all about how a man can be made right with God, reconciled to God.

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That message is given very clearly in the written Word of God to us, and we are given warning after warning not to distort that message, not to deviate in the least from the truth of what the

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Word of God teaches about it. I was raised Roman Catholic. I am today a very committed

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Evangelical in the right sense of what that word means, both from an historical standpoint and a biblical standpoint.

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And I realize in talking to people that there's a lot of confusion about terms.

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How do you define what Rome teaches about justification, sanctification, grace, faith, about Christ's work?

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Because the Roman Catholic Church does affirm we are justified by grace through faith in Christ.

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The problem comes in defining terms because we use the same terms.

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Do we mean the same thing by the terms that we use? And that is the crux of the matter.

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So what I have done in this book is put together from the Code of Canon Law, the

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Catechism of the Catholic Church, from the Question and Answer Catholic Catechism by John Harden, the document of Trent, the

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Council of Trent, and the canons of Vatican I and Vatican II, as well as certain teachings of bishops of Rome that are considered to be ex cathedra, that define dogmas of the

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Church. What is it that Rome officially teaches from these sources? Now you have an objective standard based upon the truth of the

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Word of God. What does it say? What does the Roman Catholic Church actually teach with respect to these issues of the

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Gospel and salvation? Are they compatible? It's kind of like with Augustine dealing with Pelagius.

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Pelagius did not deny the need for grace. He affirmed the term, but he redefined the term.

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And in redefining the term, he redefined it in a way that made it unbiblical. That was the issue for Augustine.

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It is the same issue we're dealing with here with the Roman Catholic Church and the way it defines these issues of the

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Gospel and salvation. And David, one of the things that you and I and Bill witness, and have witnessed for quite a while, is that you will have those who are members of evangelical churches, perhaps they were even raised that way, abandoning evangelicalism and converting to Roman Catholicism because they have swallowed wholesale the lie that the

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Catholic Church is merely continuing the very same teachings of Christ, his apostles, and the

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Church Fathers. And they have also witnessed, rightly, that evangelicals are very foreign, many in our modern day, are very foreign to what our heroes of the faith, the

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Protestant Reformers, actually taught and stood for at the risk of torture and death, and fought for, and pled for.

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The Reformers, were they to revisit the planet Earth by some miracle of God and walk into most, or at least many, evangelical churches today, they would wonder what religion was actually housing this worship service, so -called, and they would probably scratch their heads and walk out the door.

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But if you could tell us about this difficulty that we face when we see people converting to Catholicism, but they have either been fed a lie from Rome that they are swallowing, or they are thinking that the teachings that they are hearing in false modern evangelical churches are actually historically authentic.

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Yes, I think that most of the time when you find there are certain, called evangelical

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Christians, if we can use that term in a loose manner, many times the reason they convert to Rome is that they are led to believe that they are connecting with the only true ancient church that has come down through the ages, and people believe that they're uniting with this only true church.

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And yet, when you go back to the Scriptures, you find that the real issue of being in Christ comes through the preaching of the gospel, the gospel that calls us to repent of our sins, to turn away from our sins, and of course, to be honest, none of us do that perfectly, but what we're called to do is to repent purposefully, that we have a true turning away from our sins, and a turning unto the

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Lord Jesus Christ. I like the way that the Westminster Confession describes faith.

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Faith is not something that comes alone as a gift to people who receive

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Christ. Faith in Christ is receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, and faith is the only instrument whereby we're justified before God.

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And yet, faith that comes to us in the grace of God is not something that is alone in the person justified.

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It is ever, ever accompanied with all the other saving graces.

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It's not a dead faith. It's a faith that works by love. It's a faith that desires to follow the

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Lord Jesus Christ, to be obedient to the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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One thing I wanted to emphasize, when Bill mentioned that Rome does, it takes the terms that we as evangelicals use, and they use the same terms, but they don't mean the same thing.

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We think of grace as something that is unmerited from God, and yet, if you read, for example,

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John Hardin's Catechism, he tells us that we can merit for ourselves an increase of sanctifying grace.

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Well, if grace is unmerited, how can it be merited? He also says that we can, when we exercise fidelity to the church, it gives joy in the heart, and that merits further grace.

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Again, grace is unmerited. It is the free favor of God that he bestows graciously upon the penitent sinner, the one who turns away from his sin and embraces the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And so, we as evangelicals do not believe that grace is something that can be merited, and yet Rome takes that term and defines it in a very different way.

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And what Rome requires of the adherence to their standards is virtually implicit faith in the teaching of the church, in the official doctrines or dogmas of the church.

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Those things must be embraced in order to be regarded as united to God savingly.

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And yet, grace is not something that can be merited. Now, who is the

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Roman Catholic source you were quoting from? I was quoting from John Hardin's catechism.

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What century would that have been? Well, it was his...

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I'm not quite sure, I think it was in 20th century. The date of his catechism

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I have is 1981. Okay. And it's kind of interesting how liberal the

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Church of Rome has become, and yet their dogma set forth in Trent, and then just a few times after that, dogma which may never be altered, never changed, is very rarely for quite a long time the focus of any pronouncements of either popes or clergy.

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And it is quite an interesting thing how you can have a pope as left -wing as Francis is, existing where he was clearly in violation of much of what

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Trent laid down as the absolute dogmatic beliefs that must be believed and followed and obeyed.

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And I'm quite certain, and I'm wondering if you would agree, in the days of Trent, would not

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Francis be a candidate for execution by Rome with some of the extreme apostate views he has, even under using the

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Church of Rome's own teachings as a litmus test? Well, certainly so.

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When you engage Roman apologists today, they really don't want to talk about the present pope because they're very much embarrassed by him.

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And considering all the moral scandal in the

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Church of Rome today, with all of its boasted morality, yet you see the degeneracy among the clergy and where they are, including the present pope.

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It seems as though it's collapsing on its own. It's a house of cards. Yeah, in fact,

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Bill, it's an interesting situation that we, as conservative,

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Calvinistic, Reformed evangelicals, find ourselves in. When we are having conversations with most

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Roman Catholics, there are obviously sometimes, the rare occasion, when a traditionalist or one that more accurately reflects the historic teachings of Roman Catholicism pops his head up and we have a more realistic and honest conversation with two polar opposite views.

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You have the modern Roman Catholic putting us in the position of having to be the bad guy and the not -so -nice guy or the mean guy because in the 21st century we're the ones saying to them, no, you're not my brother,

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I love you, you're a great friend, I love your company, I can't wait till you come over to my house for dinner again, but you're not my brother in Christ because you are denying the

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Gospel and they are very willing to embrace us as their brothers, but they don't even realize that the

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Council of Trent, which again is dogmatic in what it laid down, teachings that never can be changed, they're the ones centuries before we were born, anathematized us.

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I mean, if you want to pick up on that. Yeah, if you go back in history, and this is basically a consistent theme all the way up through Vatican I, which was in 1870, 71, and then for years afterwards,

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Leo XIII wrote an encyclical affirming Vatican I, affirming

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Trent, affirming the historic stance of the Roman Catholic Church.

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It alone is the one true church established by Christ in Peter with a succession coming down through Peter, through the bishops of Rome throughout history.

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They alone possess the means of salvation for sinners. Apart from the

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Roman Catholic Church, there is no salvation. That's a historical position. Pius IX said outside the

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Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved. And yet, go ahead,

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I'm sorry. No, you can multiply those kinds of statements by other popes.

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Leo was one, Leo XIII in the 20th century. But then you come back to Trent and the dogmatic statements of Trent, the canons of Trent, anathematizing those who disagree and take issue with and repudiate their teachings that are the response to the

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Reformation and a biblical gospel. They have repudiated a biblical gospel, but they anathematize those who disagree with them because they believe that they are infallible and that they are indeed the one true church that alone can define doctrine that is truly saving for men.

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Now, what I was about to say is that although every conservative Roman Catholic apologist today agrees with that last statement, they adamantly and vociferously disagree with the understanding that the evangelical

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Protestants are not their brothers and sisters.

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It's interesting that even the most conservative of the modern apologetic world in Rome will always extend the olive branch to us as brothers because they probably realize it would be the death knell to their popularity amongst us, and even further put up an impenetrable wall that prevents conversions from occurring if they start in mass spewing that we are all damned because we are not in the church of Rome.

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But I'm going to have us pick up where we left off there when we return from this first break.

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If you have a question for William Webster and David T. King, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal or private matter, don't go away.

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We'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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At royaldiadem .com, always mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Dr.

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William Webster and Rev. David T. King discussing saving faith. How does

42:37

Rome define it? And before I continue on the thread that we were discussing before the break,

42:43

I want to go to, I believe he is a first -time questioner, Steve in South Berwick, Maine.

42:51

And Steve says, I wish I could send you the year's worth of dialogue that I have had between myself and a rather devoted Catholic.

43:02

He is a relative and is probably one of the few diehard apologists of Catholicism I have ever met.

43:09

He literally quotes from things like de verbum from the Vatican, denies the authority of Scripture because, per him, we do not know if we have the full canon revelation from God, saying things like the

43:24

Word of God and Scripture are not synonymous because much of the Word of God is not found in Scripture.

43:31

And then quotes passages like John 20 verse 30, Colossians chapter 4 verse 16, 2

43:39

Thessalonians 2 verse 15. I responded with, this seems like you are basically saying that God can speak to people outside of Scripture, which was true during that time.

43:52

But we are called to use Scripture as a litmus test to see if what was heard, to see if what was heard is valid.

44:02

I think you are holding on what was not recorded in the Bible versus what we actually have.

44:08

I'm going to go on, this is very long, so I'm going to go on to his second points after this.

44:14

First of all, much of what he says seems to be, from my understanding, accurate according to what

44:22

Rome believes, with the exception of the canon. The Church of Rome believes there is a definite, settled canon, even though their tradition supersedes the canon, at least they act that way.

44:37

But as far as what our listener is saying about his Catholic relative claiming we don't know what's in the canon, that is not a

44:46

Roman Catholic teaching, is it? Which one do you want to answer?

44:52

Bill, you can start. That is not a Catholic teaching. The Catholic teaching defines the exact nature of the canon.

45:02

Trent did that. It's dogmatic. They have laid it in concrete, so to speak.

45:10

But that goes contrary to the history of the church that precedes. In particular, the patristic age, which did not, in the main, embrace the

45:24

Apocrypha as the inspired word of God. The early church, taking the view of Athanasius, viewed the

45:35

Apocrypha as having a certain function within the church for believers.

45:43

It could be used for the purposes of edification, but it was not authoritative.

45:48

It was not Scripture in the same sense as the written Hebrew canon was

45:55

Scripture and the New Testament canon is Scripture. They rejected the

46:00

Apocrypha. Trent has dogmatized the nature of the

46:07

Apocrypha as being part of the canon of Scripture. And there is this divide then between the evangelical

46:15

Protestant church and it's holding to the Hebrew canon of 39 books of the

46:21

Hebrew Bible and the 27 books of the New Testament. So that is very clear.

46:26

There is no problem at all with what the canon is from a Roman Catholic standpoint.

46:33

I think the question comes with his friend. He says that the

46:38

Roman Catholic church alone has the authority to define the canon. And therefore the

46:44

Protestant church has no basis upon which to say which books are in the canon.

46:51

And David, do you have anything to follow up with? David, are you there?

46:59

Well, I guess David's not with us. I'm not sure why. Here I am, Chris. Yeah, I had myself muted.

47:07

Well, it's just another claim of the communion of Rome that we as Protestants cannot know the word of God.

47:16

When we appeal to the historical development of the canon, it's very clear, although they will argue with us, that Rome is basically on the

47:28

Protestant side when it comes to the historical definition of the canon. You can't go back really to one of the councils that they often appeal to.

47:43

I think it's in 397 in a North African council. And they actually embraced one of the books of the canon that Trent excluded from the canon.

47:56

That being, I believe it was, I think it was Third Maccabees, or is

48:02

Estrus, Third Estrus. But they don't even have the same canon as that council.

48:10

But the thing about it is God's word does not need the validation of a church council.

48:19

God's word speaks for itself. It stands on its own authority. Men like Chrysostom and Augustine have assured us of that in some of their own writings, that God himself is the witness to his own word.

48:36

Hilary of Poirier assures us that only

48:41

God is a fitting witness to his word. So we don't need a church council or the authority of some communion to define for us what the canon of Holy Scripture was.

48:57

And it was very clear when you read the writings of some of the early church writers in the second century of the church already, they, before any council had made any statement on the canon of Scripture, they were quoting from books of Scripture, knowing very well that it was

49:19

Scripture from which they were quoting. So I really think that that's a very poor argument, but it's one that the

49:29

Roman apologist, he thinks that's a sure arrow in his quiver. And it really comes to nothing when you compare it to the historical development of the canon and the witness of the early church writers.

49:45

All right, I'll just read one more part of his email. And just to let you know,

49:52

Steve in South Berwick, Maine, in the future, please give us a very brief and concise question, if you're going to submit a question.

50:02

But he says in the second part, a second apologetic of his family member, his

50:10

Roman Catholic, it is up to the priest, that is what is truly recorded in Scripture, I think is what he means by that.

50:19

It is up to the priest, since that was their directive to do by Jesus himself, when he told the original 11 apostles,

50:29

Judas was already dead, to do this when he said, as the Father has sent me, so I send you.

50:35

Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them.

50:43

And whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Taken from John 20, verses 20 through 23.

50:54

Bill, if you could comment on that before we go to our midway break, and I can only give you two minutes to respond to that.

51:03

This has to do with the authority of the keys to retain and forgive sins, given by Christ to Peter.

51:13

The church fathers basically said he's given it to the church at large. Peter is a representative of all the apostles.

51:23

And further in the history of the church, to all of the leaders of the church, who teach and preach the word of God, to retain and forgive sins, you see the application of that in the lives of these men

51:36

Christ is speaking to, and the preaching that they did on the day of Pentecost.

51:43

Declaring to men the basis upon which they can know they are forgiven of their sins.

51:49

If they reject the message, their sins will be retained. There is no history in the early church of auricular confession, of going to a priest privately, confessing sin, getting absolution, his forgiveness as a judge, and then doing penance.

52:11

There is nothing of that in the early church. There was a process by which those who committed very grave sins had to deal publicly with the church in doing a penitential discipline.

52:28

But auricular confession was not known in the early church. And for those who committed venial sin, they dealt with that simply by praying to God and asking for forgiveness.

52:40

Okay, we have to go to our midway break. Please be patient with us. It's the longer than normal break. Because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the FCC requires of them to localize geographically to Lake City, Florida, by the use of public service announcements and other local things.

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While we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials, please use this time wisely.

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Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can that is provided by as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

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When you cannot purchase what they are selling or use the services they are offering or visit their churches, please, at the very least, thank them for sponsoring

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Iron Trumpets Iron Radio. If you love this show and are truly grateful that there are advertisers who think so highly of this show that they want to keep it on the air through their advertising dollars.

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If you really are thankful for that, thank them using their contact information. And send us your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back. Don't go away. Let's get together again.

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James White of Alfenbega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Before I return to my guests today, Bill Webster and David T. King, as we continue our conversation on saving faith, how does

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Rome define it? I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. Now, first of all, if you really love this show, you don't want it to go off the air, please,

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As long as it's compatible with what I believe, you don't have to believe identically with what I believe, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what

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That wasn't last. This is last. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful,

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in your questions to Dr.

01:13:14

William Webster and Reverend David T. King on our theme, Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

01:13:20

chrisarnson at gmail .com And David T. King, if you could pick up where Bill left off, and if you have anything to add about the keys that the

01:13:32

Roman Catholic Church frequently refers to, even laymen very often in a discussion on our theological differences will bring up the issue of the priests holding the keys to the kingdom because they've been passed down by Peter, and they have the power to forgive sinners and so on.

01:13:50

If you could pick up where Bill left off. Yes, Chris. First and foremost, there is no office of priest sanctioned in the

01:14:00

New Testament scriptures. Such a character does not exist. As is already the point that's already been made.

01:14:08

It is through the preaching of the gospel that the exercise of the keys is established.

01:14:17

You take someone like Chris Austin, John Chris Austin, who in a sense really denied in principle the whole concept of a regular confession.

01:14:29

He says, for example, in one of his writings, he says, why are you ashamed to blush and confess your sins?

01:14:37

And then he says, why speak of it to man who may blame you? He says, why confess it to your fellow servant who may cause you shame?

01:14:47

He says, rather show it to the master, to him who cares for you, who is kindly disposed.

01:14:54

Show the wound to the physician. And then Chris, one of the other points

01:14:59

I really wanted to make on today's broadcast has to do with a burning issue that affects the gospel that we have from the whole

01:15:11

LGBTQ movement. People today are identifying themselves as, quote, gay

01:15:20

Christians, that they're oriented to that lifestyle that they have certain lusts and desires in what is commonly called in Holy Scripture concupiscence.

01:15:32

But I wanted to point out this. You take, for example, the

01:15:38

Council of Trent in the year 1546 in its fifth session, and this is a decree it gave concerning the original sin.

01:15:49

Listen to this language and see if it is not shocking on the very ears of a

01:15:56

Christian. Trent says, this concupiscence, this lust or this desire, which the apostle sometimes calls sin.

01:16:08

Well, he may not always explicitly call it sin, but it's always sin in the mind of the apostle.

01:16:14

This lust, this desire, which is called concupiscence. Rome says, the

01:16:20

Holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin.

01:16:28

So here on the one hand, they're confessing that sometimes Paul calls it sin, but they never call it sin.

01:16:35

And they say that it is never understood to be called sin as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin and inclines to sin.

01:16:47

And if anyone is of a contrary sentiment let him be anathema.

01:16:53

And you can see how that gives ground to so many today who think that they can go on and pursue their lust and have this lust and identify themselves in terms of this lust when it is clearly condemned by the apostle

01:17:16

Paul in Holy Scripture. And the gospel calls us to forsake all of our sins and to embrace

01:17:24

Christ. Now to clarify what you are speaking of, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but I have known for a long time that one of the reasons why homosexual scandals exist in the

01:17:43

Roman Catholic Church, in fact, I would dare to say that the homosexual scandals in reality far exceed the pedophilia scandals, that most of the priests are wickedly involved in the molestation of teenage boys rather than prepubescent children.

01:18:08

And that's not to lessen the severity of their wickedness, I'm just saying that as a matter of fact, it seems that to be more politically correct, the media and the world has chosen to lay the charge of pedophilia against priests rather than homosexuality because they don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality.

01:18:30

But having said that, the Roman Catholic Church, even amongst modern -day conservative

01:18:37

Catholics, this is not only a liberal idea, but many within the

01:18:43

Church of Rome, and even conversations I have had with apologists who are conservative, have said they agree with the admission into the priesthood those who identify themselves as homosexual as long as they vow to be chased.

01:19:01

In other words, they vow not to physically get involved in bringing their homosexual desires to fruition.

01:19:09

They seem to think that there's nothing innately so wrong with having the proclivity towards homosexual acts as to ban them from the priesthood.

01:19:21

And I'm wondering, is that where you are coming from, or were you coming from a completely different... Yes. Yes, Chris.

01:19:27

They think that these desires are okay so long as they are not acted upon.

01:19:35

And it's clear that the Apostle Paul differs from the view of Trent on that particular issue.

01:19:44

Yeah, I would mention the names of a couple of these Roman Catholic apologists who told me they agree with that allowance for professed homosexual men to enter into the priesthood as long as they are chased.

01:19:57

But I don't know if they've changed their view, so I'd rather not mention them by name. But it's startling, because remember,

01:20:04

I'm talking about conservatives here. Well, Jesus makes it clear

01:20:09

Himself that concupiscence is sin when He says, whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

01:20:21

He's clearly identifying that as sin. It's inescapable in my mind, but when you condone that sort of thing, you can well expect what is followed within the clergy of the

01:20:39

Roman Communion. By the way, our listener, Steve, who sent in a question earlier,

01:20:48

Steve, who lives in New Hampshire, I've got great news for you.

01:20:56

You have won a free copy of the book by Dr. William Webster, one of our guests today,

01:21:03

The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, published by Banner of Truth and compliments of Banner of Truth Publishing, who have provided us with a limited number of copies to give to those who have submitted questions to our guests today.

01:21:22

And once again, we thank Banner of Truth for their generosity. And their website is banneroftruth .org

01:21:28

banneroftruth .org So, by the way,

01:21:34

Steve, we need your full mailing address there in New Hampshire. I'm sorry, was it Maine? I don't remember.

01:21:40

Wherever you live, send us, oh yes, it's South Berwick, Maine. Sorry about the

01:21:47

New Hampshire comment. Steve, send us your full mailing address in South Berwick, Maine, so that we can have

01:21:53

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship to you a free copy of The Church of Rome at the

01:21:59

Bar of History, published by Banner of Truth. And we thank cvbbs .com for shipping out all of our winners their free books and Bibles and many other things that they win by submitting questions.

01:22:14

And that reminds me, Steve, if you are a first -time questioner, and I think that you may be, you've also won a free

01:22:22

New American Standard Bible. So if you're a first -time questioner, let us know, and you will also receive that in your package from cvbbs .com,

01:22:31

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible.

01:22:37

We have the aforementioned Cecil Andrews of Take Heed Ministries in Ballynahinch, Northern Ireland.

01:22:48

And by the way, he said that I pronounced it correctly. And by the way,

01:22:54

Cecil, I'm going to have to abbreviate your long question. So please forgive me for that, but we have too many people listening who want their questions asked and answered.

01:23:07

Cecil says, Grace is central to Rome's false gospel. What do your guests think of this short extract from a booklet

01:23:17

I wrote many years ago? In it, I wrote, There are some who distort the pivotal truth of what grace really is.

01:23:27

They claim that God instills a commodity called grace into people's hearts through various means, rituals, observances, sacraments.

01:23:39

Thus grace becomes a gift, a reward for man's obedience and good intentions.

01:23:45

And by the grace received, and he has grace in quotes, they are enabled to please

01:23:51

God and earn salvation. People are saved by grace, they declare, but their particular brand of grace is a reward gift, its ultimate cause lying in their own actions or works.

01:24:06

The grace of which Scripture speaks, therefore, is always and only found in God. That salvation is utterly of God's free mercy bestowed on undeserving sinners who were chosen in Christ before time began.

01:24:21

So Cecil is basically asking if you agree with that comment from a booklet he wrote.

01:24:26

And we'll start with Bill. Yeah, Cecil has fairly accurately,

01:24:34

I think, represented what the Roman Catholic view of grace is.

01:24:39

When they say we're saved by grace, we need to understand what they mean. What that means is that Christ on the cross merited grace.

01:24:50

That grace then is uniquely channeled through the

01:24:55

Roman Catholic Church alone, through a hierarchy of mediators, beginning with Jesus and Mary, coming down to the

01:25:04

Bishop of Rome, and now we have the church. The church is called the universal sacrament of salvation and reconciliation.

01:25:13

And it is the means by which grace is channeled from Jesus and Mary through the church and its priesthood and its sacraments to the sinner so that that sinner can be reconciled to God.

01:25:34

But what happens is grace is a substance or a quality placed in the soul by God by which that person now becomes enabled to do works that merit justification before God.

01:25:53

Justification is not a legal, forensic work under the law where Christ fulfills by His righteousness all of the demands of the law for sinful men.

01:26:08

All men and women are under the law of God. It demands perfect righteousness.

01:26:13

If I'm going to go to heaven, I must have perfect righteousness.

01:26:19

Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.

01:26:26

Christ delivered us from that curse. He lived a perfect life under the law of God, perfect righteousness as a man.

01:26:34

He went to the cross then to bear the penalty, the full penalty, punishment, the wrath of God.

01:26:42

He's a propitiation for the sins of the world. And He is the Lamb of God then who takes away the sin of the world.

01:26:52

That's grace. The totality of the guilt of my sin is dealt with. All of the condemnation due to my sin is dealt with.

01:27:01

Christ has fulfilled the law for me. In Him, when I come to Him in repentance and faith, and I am united to Him, I am eternally justified by God at that very moment.

01:27:17

Justification is not a process based upon works that I do by grace.

01:27:24

Justification is Christ alone accomplishing what no man can do.

01:27:30

Because to be accepted by God, I must be perfect. I have not even the inkling of being perfect.

01:27:41

I cannot even remotely think that somehow

01:27:48

God is going to accept me on the basis of my good deeds. I have no good deeds. Grace is

01:27:56

God delivering me from sin totally by Jesus Christ alone.

01:28:02

That is why our faith has to be a trust in Him alone and why the word of God says over and over again, it is not by works.

01:28:12

We are saved by faith apart from the works of the law.

01:28:18

We receive righteousness as a gift apart from works.

01:28:25

But once I'm in Christ, because I am saved, I am sanctified and regenerated, and now

01:28:33

I will do works as a fruit of a work that has been eternally accomplished for me in Jesus Christ.

01:28:44

So though it is not by works, it will resolve in the fruit of works in my life.

01:28:51

But those works are done out of love for God, not out of a desire to earn

01:28:57

His favor. That is opposed to grace. Romans 11, 6 says, if it is by grace, it is no longer by works.

01:29:05

For if it is by works, grace is no longer grace. It is by Christ alone.

01:29:13

Let me have you clarify something. Since you are a very strong, vociferous public advocate, not only in your audible words, but in your writings of lordship salvation, when you said just moments ago that you have no good works, you're obviously referring to works that could be considered meritorious, because you and I and David all believe, as do all historically accurate and biblically faithful Reformed Christians, that in order for someone to be deemed a genuine brother in Christ, they must produce good works as evidence, not as a cause of salvation, but as an evidence of genuine salvation, just as James says in his epistle.

01:30:02

Am I right on that, just to clarify? Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's basically what

01:30:08

I said. It's true. You do works as a result of grace in you because you are already saved.

01:30:19

That work of grace in the heart of the life is what God does in His sovereign work in the heart, raising a sinner from the dead, uniting that sinner to Christ, and what happens with, in salvation, a man is delivered from sin, from every aspect of sin.

01:30:39

Justification is one aspect of sin. It's guilt and condemnation due to my sinful state before God.

01:30:47

I'm also regenerated in Christ. I have a new nature, a new heart.

01:30:52

I'm also sanctified. My life has been set apart to Christ because in coming to Him, I must repent of my rebellion against God and His law, and I become a slave, a doulos in Greek, of the one who is

01:31:13

Lord. That is how He delivers me from the bondage and the power of my sin.

01:31:20

1 Corinthians 1 .30 says, by His doing, by God's doing,

01:31:27

His sovereign work, you are in Christ Jesus who became to us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

01:31:39

It is all in Him, and all of those works are accomplished of delivering a man from sin when they are in Christ.

01:31:47

David, do you have any further comments? I would simply add that Rome denies the sufficiency of the atonement with regard to the temporal penalties of sin, hence their whole doctrine of purgatory and so on.

01:32:08

They believe that we must pay the price for, you know, the temporal price for our sins in purgatory.

01:32:19

And when you read early church writers such as Basil of Caesarea, he denies the whole concept of differing between venial sins and immortal sins.

01:32:34

He tells us plainly that when he takes up the scriptures in the Old and New Testaments, he says that disobedience towards God is plainly judged not to lie in the multitude of sins, nor their magnitude, but in the mere transgression of any one command, and that there's a common judgment of God against all disobedience.

01:33:00

And so they're denying the perfect sufficiency of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

01:33:08

It just does away with the biblical gospel, and it is belittling of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

01:33:20

Amen. And by the way, Cecil, since you live overseas, we cannot ship you a free copy of The Church of Rome at the

01:33:29

Bar of History, published by Banner of Truth, but if you do know and love someone in the

01:33:35

United States whose address you care to provide for us, we will have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:33:42

ship that book to them at no cost to you or to us. The shipping fees would be astronomical and put

01:33:51

CVBBS .com out of business, I'm certain, if we were shipping books and Bibles to all of our overseas listeners.

01:33:59

So I hope you understand that, and if you care to give us an American with an address that you want to receive the book, let us know.

01:34:08

But thank you for contributing to today's program. Well, let me ask you guys first, would you care, first of all,

01:34:16

Bill, to state anything else about another issue under the umbrella of saving faith?

01:34:23

How does Rome define it? Or do you want me to go to a listener question? Because the listener questions can wait if you want to say something first.

01:34:31

No, you can go ahead to the listener. Okay, we have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says,

01:34:40

I am in constant dialogue, and it often gets very heated, with my friends and family members who are

01:34:48

Roman Catholic. Sometimes they attempt to derail the conversation by bringing up issues that are more trivial when compared to the

01:34:59

Gospel. Do you have any counsel and guidance and advice on how we can keep the main thing the main thing when we are having conversations with Roman Catholics?

01:35:10

I know that we often have temptations to bring up things like the title of father for the priests, and the outlandish robes and garments they wear, and all kinds of things they do ceremonially, which are in and of themselves very important issues.

01:35:29

But sometimes we can get sidetracked from the more weighty matters. Can you help us on this?

01:35:37

And Bill, you can start, Bill, and then we'll go to David. Well, I think prayer might be the first thing you need to do.

01:35:47

Praying for the individuals that you're involved with, that you're interacting with. Praying for an open door that the

01:35:53

Lord might direct your conversations to the things that are really substantive and that are really important.

01:36:02

All these secondary kind of frivolous issues really don't amount to anything.

01:36:08

And I agree with you, you want to try to focus on the things that are really important. You can look at what the word of God says about the gospel in Galatians 1, the importance of it, and the severe warning that is given by Paul in Galatians 1 about distorting and corrupting the gospel that has been revealed by God in his word.

01:36:37

Anyone who preaches, who teaches, who disseminates a false gospel is under the anathema of God, not some man or organization.

01:36:52

This is God's curse. Paul says that twice in Galatians 1. And so trying to bring that very sober realization to people's hearts and minds.

01:37:05

What we're dealing with here are of eternal importance for men and women to understand and to be clarified.

01:37:14

We are called to present the gospel. So I would just urge you to pray, trust the

01:37:22

Lord to give you those opportunities, but you can only do so much in terms of where people are willing to go. But I think you're right to try to keep the focus there on the first things.

01:37:31

And David, do you have any comments? Yes, I agree completely that we ought to keep our eyes upon first things and keep first things first.

01:37:43

But I would also advise the listener to give yourself the prayer. Sometimes you know only

01:37:50

God is going to, and we believe that it's God himself in the act or the process of conversion, but justification itself is a free act of God.

01:38:04

That's something that only God can accomplish in the life of an individual.

01:38:10

I remember one of the stories of Augustine from his confessions when his mother went to a

01:38:17

Catholic bishop who himself had converted for Manichaeism, and she asked him to speak to her son and to prove to her son,

01:38:33

Augustine. Monica asked him to prove to Augustine, asked this bishop to prove to Augustine that Manichaeism was wrong.

01:38:43

And the bishop looked at her and says, God, he says, God will not send to hell someone who prays and weeps tears over the conversion of her son.

01:38:59

In other words, God is going to be, the thing that is needed the most was what he was emphasizing to Monica was that she needed to continue to pray for her son and that God would not deny the son of such tears salvation.

01:39:18

I thought that was interesting. That's certainly not true in every case. We're not saved by our tears and we're not saved by our prayers, but we are saved by God when

01:39:28

God himself is pleased to intervene. So sometimes, especially when it comes to relatives and family members, we're far more effective in prayer sometimes when we're at odds with one another vocally.

01:39:43

If you could very briefly define Manichaeism, I believe it's a worship of mannequins, right?

01:39:50

If you could define it. It was actually a

01:39:55

Gnostic sect that only presented God in terms of, you know,

01:40:02

Augustine, when he was a mannequin, he only thought of God in physical terms. And it was only, you know, when he was converted under the preaching of Augustine, of Ambrose, that he saw that God was an infinitely eternal spirit.

01:40:21

And Augustine was converted from his Manichaeism, but it was really one of the

01:40:28

Gnostic sects. And we have Cindy in Findley, Ohio, one of our most faithful and loyal listeners, saying something that I actually agree with.

01:40:41

She says, I would not discount any question from someone who sincerely is asking.

01:40:47

I would just merely say that some questions will be answered at a later time, so that as not to chase squirrels and keep the topic at hand.

01:40:55

I think that's a very good comment. If somebody brings up the fact that they see nothing wrong with calling their so -called priest father, or they have no problem with a priest or a bishop wearing robes that would rival

01:41:11

Liberace's garments, that we're not supposed to die on those hills and take up too much of the individual's time, or ours, by trying to refute those things.

01:41:23

Do you think that Cindy has some merit in what she says? Are you asking me?

01:41:30

Yeah, sure. You can start, and Bill can follow. I think she's spot on.

01:41:36

I don't think, you know, even John, in his first epistle, he recognizes that some of our people are called father, are referred to as a father in the faith.

01:41:51

I think that when Jesus said, call no man master, what he was saying is he doesn't want us to address someone with father in terms as though they're the master and they're the only one that has understanding of such things.

01:42:05

And in that sense, it's right, only the Lord Jesus Christ is our master. But to pursue some kind of tangent like that, really doesn't, it's not profitable.

01:42:17

And Bill, before we go to the break, anything briefly you want to say about that? No, I think

01:42:23

David pretty much covered that. I agree with her also. I think she had a good comment.

01:42:28

Great. And Cindy, please make sure we have your full mailing address in Findlay, Ohio, because you have also won a free copy of The Church of Rome at the

01:42:36

Bar of History, compliments of our friends at Banner of Truth. We're going to our final break. Don't go away.

01:42:42

We'll be right back. Yeah. Fencing and wrecking.

01:42:55

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01:43:02

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. And this time we'll have

01:55:11

David start with an answer. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, one of our most faithful, loyal, and generous supporters.

01:55:20

Greetings brothers. I know or I believe that most Roman Catholic doctrine is from councils.

01:55:27

However, doesn't the Pope set some doctrines by just declaring it a doctrine?

01:55:33

And if you could start David. Well I think that when you engage

01:55:38

Roman apologists on this subject they'll point out that if I'm not mistaken

01:55:44

Bill can correct me. I think there have only been allegedly two ex -Cathedra statements by the

01:55:52

Pope, by Popes, and I think one had to do with the assumption of Mary.

01:56:00

Well the assumption of Mary in Vatican II I believe. And the infallibility of the papacy.

01:56:07

And the infallibility of the papacy or I'm not sure I don't want to confuse that it may have been the immaculate conception of Mary.

01:56:15

I'm not sure if both of them are related to the Marian dogmas. Oh yeah, they were both ex -Cathedra

01:56:23

I believe. Right, but most Roman apologists would respond and say, well since that's been so infrequent it's really a non -issue, is how they would.

01:56:35

But also we think that in ex -Cathedra or ex -Cathedra statement one would think that that whole concept of the infallibility of the

01:56:48

Pope, that the Pope would be protected from error. And of course we see examples of Popes who embraced

01:56:55

Arian -Liberius, the Arian controversy, as well as Honorius concerning the

01:57:02

Lord Jesus Christ, whether or not he had one or two wills. But they would say that only when the

01:57:12

Pope speaks ex -Cathedra is it an infallible statement.

01:57:18

And Bill, any follow -up? Well there is the infallible statement of Boniface VIII, 1303

01:57:29

I believe, where he declared that the Bishop of Rome rules the Church and that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the

01:57:39

Bishop of Rome for salvation. You cannot be saved unless you are subject to the

01:57:45

Bishop of Rome. It was another authoritative writing within the

01:57:56

Roman Catholic Communion that defines that statement by Boniface as one of the few ex -Cathedra infallible statements by a

01:58:06

Bishop of Rome. The other is Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception in 1859 declaring

01:58:15

Mary to have been born free of original sin, to be perfectly holy in her life.

01:58:24

That also is a dogma. He declared that you cannot be saved apart from submission to that doctrine.

01:58:34

The next one is, as you mentioned, in 1950 with Pius XII, the

01:58:41

Declaration of the Assumption of Mary. In fact, folks let that sink in.

01:58:47

1950, not 1850, 1750, 1650. 1950. 1950.

01:58:56

And it is an ex -Cathedra infallible statement of the Bishop of Rome. So you only have really about three.

01:59:05

In fact, we have to call time now because we're out of time. I look forward to getting you both back on very soon and I will schedule another interview as quickly as possible with you.

01:59:18

I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:59:24

Grace Bible Church in Battleground Washington can be found at gracebiblebattleground .org,

01:59:31

gracebiblebattleground .org. Christian Resources can be found at christiantruth .com,

01:59:37

christiantruth .com. And Christ Church of Katy, Texas can be found at cckpca .org,

01:59:46

cckpca .org. I want to thank everybody who listened today and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater