August 13, 2020 Show with Mike Kleinsasser on “One Man’s Journey Out From the Hutterites Into the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of August 2020 and I know

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I'm going to be utterly fascinated by our interview today. We have for the very first time joining us as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Mike Klein Sasser.

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He is pastor of Grace Life Church of Richland Center, Wisconsin and he is going to be discussing his own personal journey out from the

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Hutterites into the doctrines of sovereign grace and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Mike Klein Sasser.

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It is a privilege to be with you. And I'm going to give our listeners right away our email address if you have any questions about the

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Hutterites, about Mike Klein Sasser's personal journey, about the doctrines of sovereign grace that he has embraced, or about his church, whatever the case may be, send us an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Perhaps you are a

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Hutterite and you're listening and you're starting to question things that you have been taught, or whatever the reason would be that you would want to remain anonymous, we will grant your request.

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But please only remain anonymous, as I said, if it's a personal and private question. And a general question we ask that you give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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Well, first of all, tell us, before we go into your story, tell us about Grace Life Church of Richland Center, Wisconsin.

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Grace Life Church of Richland Center is a Sovereign Grace Church. We are actually a church plant of Grace Life Church of Massachusetts, Alabama since 2010.

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And the church has gone through some hard times because when we started preaching the

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Doctrines of Grace, quite a few people left, and it was very hard for five, six years.

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But I am pleased and full of joy to share with the audience and with you that God is building this church.

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About four years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ saw fit that the doors would open and people came.

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And why I am so excited is because, not of the numbers, but we are growing in grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. The core group of people is growing in theology, and not only in theology, but also living it out.

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Our methodology, our terminology is all coming to a head. And what a joy it is to see the people of God being united for the glory of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. So we are a young church and a smaller church.

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There are some Sundays when everybody is present. There have been up to 100 people with children and everybody, but average,

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I would say, is probably around 60, 65 to 70 people regularly attending Sunday.

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And Wednesday, we do have Wednesday service, about 30 people show up on that.

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So we are excited what God is doing. We live in a community of 5 ,000 people.

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There are over 30 churches here. And they all claim to be Christians, but we know that is not the case according to Scripture.

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So Grace Life Church is a Dover Grace Church, trusting the Lord Jesus Christ that He is going to build this church.

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And we can say with confidence that He is. Great. And if you want more information about Grace Life Church of Richland Center, Wisconsin, go to Facebook and type in Grace Life Church of Richland, that's

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R -I -C -H -L -A -N -D, Center, Wisconsin, and you'll have the information that you need.

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They are having a website designed for them, but it is not yet completed. So we'll keep you updated on that.

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Well, I would love to hear now about your personal childhood, your upbringing in your home, and I'm assuming that was a

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Hutterite home. And if you could tell us about that. Perhaps you could even before that, tell us in summary form about the

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Hutterites. Who are they? What makes them unique? How are they different? And how are they similar to the

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Amish and the Mennonites and other Anabaptists? And you could start there with a definition.

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Okay. Well, the Hutterite people are a group of people that, as we all know, they started coming out through the radical reformation in the 16th century.

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And there's a lot of history with that because the Hutterites came over from, they were in Russia, then they migrated to Tirol, Austria.

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That's where they're originally from. They came back to Tirol, Austria. And then they migrated to America and to Canada.

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And they're quite similar to the Amish and the Mennonites, but there's one distinctive difference between those groups.

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The Hutterites believe in Acts chapter 2, verse 44 and 47.

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44 through 47 is literal. I mean, they live their lives.

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There's one man that is in control of all things. He is the hierarchy. It's kind of like the

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Catholic Church. So what happens is, everybody is appointed a job, and everybody is working.

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And they say, what really is scary in that teaching is because they say and teach you that the commune is the ark.

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So if you leave the ark, you're going to hell. That's why so many people are scared of leaving.

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But they're very similar to the Amish and the Mennonites. They're very works -oriented. The Hutterites are very,

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I always say the Hutterites are like Amish people on steroids. But they're so self -righteous.

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It is incredible. They do believe in baptism and regeneration. So when you get baptized, that's where your regeneration happens.

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So it is quite a life to live there. But you work sunup to sundown.

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You never get paid. You don't get taught any of those things. So when you do leave, you leave with a blank page.

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I mean, you have to get taught everything. You can't handle finances. You have no social graces. Because in all reality, what happens is, people don't have to think for themselves.

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You are told what you do, when you do it, how you do it. So that's how you do it.

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And they say that is their cross. They say that is how they love one another.

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But that's not what scripture teaches. So it is a hard life.

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It really is. Unless you don't have to think for yourself. You just want to live there.

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And one thing I will say, everything that you could possibly need is being provided for you.

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Because all the money goes into one pot. One guy handles that. And you get the necessities that you need.

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They say they have all things common, even in that system. That is not true.

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But again, like I said, there are a lot of similarities between the Amish and the Mennonites. But there is one glaring difference between the

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Hutterites and the rest of them. But it all boils down to, end of the day, salvation by works.

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And that is not biblical. Yes, I have interviewed a wonderful brother by the name of Chuck Volo.

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In fact, I urge our listeners to look up my interviews with Chuck at ironsharpensironradio .com

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when you click past shows, podcast. If you type in the search engine his last name,

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U -O -L -O you will see my interviews with Chuck Volo.

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And he is an evangelist to the Amish. And he has been used of God to lead a number of Amish folks to a true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and the true gospel of the scriptures.

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And Chuck also is a pastor. He is the pastor of New Life Church in Maryland in Kingsville, Maryland.

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And he is just a joy to know and to fellowship with.

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His website, just to let you know, is newlifemd .org newlifemdformaryland .org

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But I was fascinated by my interview. In fact, Chuck also has brought former

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Amish folks with him to be interviewed on this program. And to hear their testimonies is quite exciting and quite fascinating.

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But he made it very clear that it is a completely different gospel than the gospel of biblical

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Christianity. As you already mentioned, it's a works righteousness gospel. Perhaps even more so, more

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Pelagian than the Roman Catholic Church itself. But quite frightening, although we have to say and now you can chime in about the

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Hutterites but even though they are, the Amish are very, very strict and legalistic and are involved in teaching the heresy, the damnable heresy of works righteousness salvation that many of them are, if not most of them are very kind and compassionate and graceful and loving even when they have disfellowshipped people

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I have been told that if they hear you're in need they'll bring food to you.

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Now, would that be a similar description of the Hutterites? Yes, the Hutterites are very lovable people.

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They're very giving people. They're very kind people. They will do anything for anybody but the sad thing is then they, at the end of their lives they will bring death for collecting their merits and it's going to be a sad day for them and I remember very clearly when

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I got converted when God saved me I thought to myself everybody is going to want to hear this, you know so I made a journey and I live about 500 miles from where I grew up and I shared a gospel with them they rejected it it was so heartbreaking because the

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Bible teaches in the book of Romans chapter 1 the righteous shall live by faith and you take that to them and it is so devastating but at the same time they are very lovable people and they're giving people they're the first to be there when there's a need in the community they will help but they're very isolated everything has to go through the proper channels even to do anything so it is a very secluded life it's a hard life but I tell you this for me sharing the gospel to them they would rather accept you than me because I'm a ex -Halleluiah and they will not accept me to come in but if you will come and share the gospel with them they will listen to you but they will not listen to me and I encourage some of our men in church

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I said hey they'll listen to you but they won't listen to me so that's one thing about them is there anything different about the attire that they wear and the like for instance the

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Amish have beards and no mustaches and they have different rules like that I mean are there similar kinds of rules of appearance yes there are they dress quite similar the men wear a certain kind of shirt they all have to wear black the women they wear a certain kind of dress and they have a big head covering they're very similar in that regard but like I said the glaring difference is living in a commune having all things common now how would that be different from the

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Amish isn't that exactly what they do well yeah but what the

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Hutterites when we leave the last ten years an incredible amount of young Hutterite men and women have left now there's even families leaving and God is moving through them and converting them but they will say the

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Hutterites teach that because people cannot understand that unless you live in it they make it so personal when you have your own checking account and you have your own vehicle that is for the flesh that's what they teach and when you start a conversation with them those of us that have left they said all you want is your checking account

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I said you want my checking account there's not much in it but they put so much back in that that it actually diverts all conversation away from the gospel they just close their eyes and their ears and they do not listen and are the

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Anabaptist roots from the same stream are you all descendants of Menno Simmons or do you have a different origin than the other

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Amish and the Mennonites the Amish are actually descendants of the

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Mennonites but the Hutterites are of Jacob Hutter he got burned at the stake he started that movement back in 1580 or something like that but they took their name from Jacob Hutter he is the founder for lack of a better word of the

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Hutterites and it's been going ever since then and he was executed by the

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Church of Rome yes and do you know what the specific reasons were yes the specific reasons were because of baptizing babies separation of church and state they were very strongly against carrying arms now when you say baptizing babies you mean they were opposed to baptizing babies yes they were opposed to baptizing babies

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I'm sorry about that and they were very strong about separation of church and state so they were very critical on that they were pacifists they do not believe in going to war

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I mean joining being a police force and all that they were very strong on that so that was some of the things they were very strong on you should not take an oath you should not swear they were very strong on that too sounds like there are many similarities with the

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Amish well tell me about your day to day life growing up and when was it in your life that you can recall you started questioning

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Hutterite belief and practice and how did you start hearing the true gospel well my everyday life like growing up you are loved you are surrounded by people that care for you

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I had a good mom my mom is still alive she is 72 years old she was a good mom she tried to teach us the truth but whatever she knew but it was a good life growing up you have your chores you have school we also went to German school

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I went to German school from the time I was 5 years old until I was 15 I went 2 hours a day to German school and the rest of the time

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I went to English school so it was a good life we worked very hard but very early on in my life

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I knew that I am not going to stay there and I mentioned it to my mom I think I was 13 mom

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I do not want to live here and she said I hope you rather die than leave and I thought to myself wow but I stayed there until I was 22 and I hitchhiked out of there

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I got a I thumbed a truck driver down he dropped me off at a truck stop in Madison Wisconsin and so at a very early age

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I knew that I will not be there and it is amazing looking back there is 4 boys and 2 girls in our family all the boys left and they probably will tell you the same story that very early on they knew they are not going to stay there the girls, the daughters, our sisters they are still living there they got married they are in the whole right community even living there when you go to church you do not hear the gospel

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I was so amazed when God saved me about the blood of Jesus Christ I never heard it

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I mean I did not even know about repentance but God so mercifully and gracefully saved me and that happened that occurred in 1999 and I was so amazed and I sat back and I was wondering what are they teaching the people what are they teaching the people they are literally looking now what

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I know now they created 2 sons of hell it is incredible that they just live their lives to populate hell and it is fearful my parents are up in age

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I plead with them I plead with other family members to bow before the Lord Jesus Christ before it is too late so to answer your question it was a good life looking from the worldly perspective it really was but teaching the gospel you do not get taught the gospel you get taught

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Bible stories one thing I want to make very clear I do not want to throw everything out they did teach me about God they did teach me about God they do teach you about God but not in the work of Jesus Christ not the work of Jesus Christ that teaching is so vague it was a good childhood now you say that you obviously discovered the true gospel how did that specifically occur were you still isolated in the community with the

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Hutterites or were you out of that after your trek to Wisconsin is that when you discovered and why did you go to Wisconsin to begin with well if you had asked me that question about 15 -20 years ago

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I said I don't know but now I know by the grace of God by the providence of God I know why I am here to preach the gospel but I was not in the community when

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I heard the gospel I remember very vaguely around 97 -98 a gentleman shared the gospel with me and he asked me some questions and I really didn't care in my testimony

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I always tell people I really never thought of heaven or hell it really didn't matter to me but one thing being converted and understanding the doctrines of grace it is amazing how many people so called

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Christians have such a low view of God they bring God down to our level and that is not possible but that's what we try to do but when you study

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God we had a wonderful study to the doctrines to the attributes of God by A .W.

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Pink as a church that's incredible and he hasn't even touched he hasn't even scraped the iceberg on who

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God is a gentleman ministered to me just shared a gospel with me and in 19

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I think it's in 99 I didn't know it was the spirit of God but something it started to draw me and I never read,

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I never prayed but I was drawn to the word of God and I started reading it and I was married

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I had one son we had one son I was very deep in drugs and alcohol and I started reading the

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Bible and I was up on a roof one day and the spirit of God just ministered to my heart so clearly today is the day of salvation does not harden your heart

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I jumped off that roof I fell before the almighty God and I repented

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I asked him to save me to take my life to cleanse me and that's when it happened did you say you jumped off the roof?

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is that what you said? yes I did I was up on an 8 foot roof I jumped off the side of the roof and I told

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God that I was working with I said I'll be back I went home and I fell before God and I repented you didn't injure yourself?

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no I made me good yes maybe you considered their backward ways and you wanted to explore modern society is that more about why you left?

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yes but there's a side of the story some people are just scratching their head so when you leave there that's why

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I said earlier when you leave the Hutterite community it is hard to adapt to the outside so when

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I got converted when God saved me I had no clue about a church

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I literally had no idea where to go I just prayed and my father in law was attending a

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Mennonite church so I thought ok I'll go visit so that's where it really me and my wife started going there that's where it really started really getting hard when

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I was studying the scriptures and seeing that God is God Almighty that we should live by faith so in all reality when

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I joined a Mennonite church I definitely did not do me any favors so to fast forward so we were five families we visited with the preachers we visited with the pastors we just told them we brought scripture to them we brought questions how about this, how about this how about the

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Holy Spirit they said this is the way we do it if you don't like it there's the door now the

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Mennonites I don't know a lot about them but obviously they are a distinct group from the

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Amish although they have the same origins but from what

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I understand the Mennonites are far more diverse from conservative to liberal but you may be more likely to find among them a church and people that actually believe in the gospel not the gospel of sovereign grace as we would call it but the distilled gospel of believing that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and that repentance and belief in the triune

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God and trusting in his sacrifice on Calvary will save you am

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I right to say that you are more likely going to find someone who believes in the true gospel albeit from an

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Arminian Wesleyan semi -Pelagian spin well all the names that you named semi -Pelagian,

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Arminian that's all running that all has erupted in the Mennonites because one thing about the

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Mennonites it's always a little more dangerous they will teach the gospel they will preach that you are saved by grace but they add so much to it if you do not follow what they have put in place then you are not truly converted but they will preach that you are saved by grace but then they add all this other stuff that you have to follow and be obedient so yes they do preach it and I will say that they do preach it but at the same time it is not being left out as they proclaim it from behind the pulpit and more of his journey out from the

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Hutterites into the doctrines of Sovereign Grace don't go away we will be right back was your business shut down during the

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Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entirety of the program is

40:54

Mike Kleinsasser. Mike is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Richmond Center, Wisconsin.

41:03

We are discussing his journey out from the Hutterites into the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

41:14

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we left your story before the station break when you were attending a

41:33

Mennonite church after having left the Hutterite community and moved to Wisconsin, I believe

41:40

Madison at the time, and you were attending a Mennonite church that was where your father -in -law was attending, and you became disenchanted, disgruntled, you were not settled in your heart and mind with what you were hearing completely, so tell us more about that.

41:59

So yeah, so as time went on, as they were teaching the word and a lot of things came back, even as growing up in the

42:11

Hutterite community, when you get baptized, when I got baptized in the

42:16

Mennonite church, they gave you a piece of paper that said, okay, here, this is how you're a

42:23

Christian, and I was a young believer, you know, I really didn't look too deep into it, but as I grew it,

42:29

I was reading the scriptures, and I read the statement that the piece of paper that they gave me, they had so many laws on there, what you have to do, what you can and cannot do, you know, so it was overwhelming, but as time went on, by God's grace and providence, more young Hutterites got converted, and they attended the

42:54

Mennonite church, and I did, because again, like I said, if you do not come out of a setting like that, it's hard to explain when you leave and go into the outside world, your thought process, you have to be taught about everything, that's why you see it, even in the

43:13

Hutterites, when people leave, there's a lot of hard times, hardships for them people, because first of all, they hate authority, and because they're always under authority, but you have to get a biblical view of authority, so I saw the same kind of, same things unfolding in the

43:31

Mennonite setting, and like I said, there was about five families of us that we went to the leaders, and we laid ourselves out with biblical questions, and they couldn't answer it, they told us, hey, this is the way we do church, this is the way we live our lives, if you guys don't like it, there's the door, so what happened is, it was hard for us, because at that time we had,

43:57

I think four boys already, and you know, when you're in a setting, you know, you get acquainted with people, you make friends, but it was hard, but we left, and started to meet in my brother's basement, and I'll be honest with you...

44:14

Oh, one of your brothers that had also left the Hutterites? Yeah, he was converted already, he was converted already at that time.

44:22

And where's your other brother with the Lord, is he also a Christian? Yes, but...

44:28

Oh, praise God! Amen, there's four of us, but three are converted, and all three of us attend the same church.

44:40

You mean right now, they're going to Grace Hut? Oh, great! Praise God, and so what happened is, we started meeting in my brother's basement, and we just came before the

44:49

Lord, all we knew, we wanted the truth, we did not know, you know, reality, we didn't even know what it looked like, because we have been with the

44:59

Hutterites and the Mennonites, so we fell before God, and we prayed, and we prayed, and we met, and we studied scriptures, and lo and behold, a young friend of ours gave us a

45:16

CD of Brother Paul Washer, and we listened to that, and it's amazing,

45:26

I want to tell you something, when we listened to that message, we said in unison, this is what we're looking for, this is what we're looking for, we didn't even hesitate, we went online and looked up Paul Washer, we never heard of him before, we looked him up, at that time it was the conference, they had a true church conference every

45:51

February, so we registered right there, we registered, we didn't even hesitate, so we went down there to Alabama in February of 2009,

46:04

I want to tell you something, I want to tell the audience something, when we sat down and we listened to those men preach, see, all the preaching we heard before was centered around man, when them brothers went up to preach, and preach for the glory of God, we started crying,

46:25

I mean, it was just incredible, the difference when you exalt

46:32

Jesus Christ instead of man, so we were there for three and a half days, we listened to 11 messages, we sat through every one of them, we were scared, we didn't even talk to anybody, we came back the second year, we did the same thing,

46:50

I want to tell you this, it was some of the hardest,

46:56

I think it was the hardest three years of my life, meaning, when we first heard of Dr.

47:03

Tom Graves, we understood it, but we didn't fight, we hammered it out, we were sitting around, how can this be, and we went to scripture, we saw what the scripture teaches, so I will say this, for me, me personally, it took my own three years until I was, until I fought through it and said, this is the gospel, and it was an incredible journey, today

47:33

I can boldly say, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, hallelujah, and I tell people, and I tell people, even when

47:43

I preach, I say, listen to me very carefully, nobody will ever rob me of my joy again, because this joy that I have has been given to me by the

47:52

Lord Jesus Christ, and no man has the right to take it from me, so it was an incredible journey, but at that time, then in 2010 of November, I think it was 2010, we called up Graves Life Church of the

48:14

Shoals, that we need help, if they would be willing to help us, at that time, they were really not too much into church, they were just starting, but they were so gracious to me,

48:28

I mean, they personally, it's a 13 -hour flight, it's a 13 -hour drive, but they flew up here, they personally delivered theological books, systematic theology, they can,

48:41

I think they delivered 22 or 25 books to help me out, to teach me, it was incredible.

48:47

Now you were already functioning as the pastor there, for your brother's congregation meeting in his home? Well, yes, we were, actually what was happening is, we were taking turns to preach, and as time went on, some of the men, they said,

49:02

I'm not called to preach, so slowly they stepped aside, and I knew, and I knew very early on in my conversion, that I'm gonna, the

49:13

Lord wants me to preach, I love the gospel, I'm very, it's very dear to me, because it's real, it's the truth, and I want people to know that, so I knew very early on that I would be preaching,

49:31

I didn't think I'd be a shepherd, but the Lord has called me to shepherd this flock, so at that time, no,

49:40

I was not, but when we were conversing with Graves Life Church of the

49:45

Shoals, we did ask, how about, you guys have anybody in mind that could pastor, and they turned to me, they said, why would we send somebody up here when you have a pastor?

49:58

They also saw it, you know, and heard it, so that's how that came to be, and it took a while, but I prayed through it, and the

50:08

Lord has been blessing ever since. Now it is, it is fascinating as I hear you, your

50:16

Hutterite background was obviously such a isolated and closed -knit, close -knit community, that your accent doesn't even sound

50:29

American. I mean, I've heard many different accents from the different coasts, and from the north and south, you actually sound like you're from a foreign country, you sound like you're possibly from Germany, or Austria, or something like that, or one of the

50:43

Baltic countries. Yes, yes, it is very, very secluded.

50:49

You hardly have, now, nowadays, it's a little more because they're doing a lot of industry, but back when

50:57

I grew up, it was mostly, we were very, we were very secluded, and he always spoke

51:02

German, you know, I was preaching in Austria a couple years ago, and a lady that was doing translating for me, she could not translate the

51:11

English words, I started speaking in the Austrian language, oh man, the people were very excited to hear me speak their language, so I do speak the whole

51:19

Austrian, Austrian -German, but yeah, so it's, some people,

51:26

I feel like my boys now, they don't want to speak German because people make fun of my accent, and they don't want to be made fun of.

51:32

You mean the German people make fun of your accent? No, the people in the community. Oh, oh, okay.

51:38

Now, that seems to be another difference between the Hutterites and the Amish, because from what

51:43

I understand, is that the Amish speak a dialect that is not authentic German.

51:50

That is correct, yes. I was, I was in Austria, like I said, and I did for, after three days,

52:00

I was there for ten days, after three days, I did not speak English. Only thing I spoke was Austrian. I even could order off the menu,

52:08

I was tired after them ten days, because I might have to think, you know, when I speak, to get, to get the language right, but yeah, there's a difference in their language, yes.

52:19

And we have to go to our midway break right now, and we'll pick up right where we left off. This is the longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio, and yes, they are connected with my brother's church, and the

52:34

Muscles Shoals Church in Alabama as well. Grace Life Radio is a ministry of Grace Life Church in Lake, I know,

52:45

I say it every day, and it's flown out of my head, but it's in Florida, Lake City, Florida, sorry about that, and we're the

52:55

Ellickson Brothers minister, Brandon and Justin Ellickson. I hope they're listening today to their brother in their fellowship of the

53:03

Grace Life Churches. But Grace Life Radio airs this program twice a day, in a pre -recorded format, once in morning drive, and once in the evening, and they are required by FCC to localize their programming to Lake City, Florida, which would include

53:22

Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, since they are a not -for -profit ministry, and while they do that, while they air their own public service announcements, we air our globally heard commercials.

53:35

So please use this time wisely during this longer break, and write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them and that will,

53:54

God willing, hopefully translate into us remaining on the air longer, because the longer our advertisers stick around, the longer we will likely remain in existence, because we depend, we absolutely depend on our advertisers to exist.

54:12

We do not make nearly enough money in donations to self -sustain from that alone, so we do rely with absolute certainty on our advertisers to exist.

54:31

So try to patronize them as much as you can, and also send in questions to our guest,

54:38

Mike Kleinsasser, to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

54:44

We will be right back after these messages with more of Mike Kleinsasser and his journey out from the

54:51

Hutterites into the doctrines of sovereign grace. So please do not go away.

54:59

We'll be back before you know it. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

55:10

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

55:16

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

55:22

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

55:28

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

55:36

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

55:42

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

55:48

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states.

56:02

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

56:12

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

56:18

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

56:25

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

56:39

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the

56:49

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

57:09

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

57:17

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

57:28

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

57:33

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

57:39

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

57:47

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

57:54

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

58:10

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

58:19

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That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

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I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

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Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

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This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

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There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

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forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

59:38

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

59:45

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

59:50

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:00:06

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:00:12

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:00:36

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:00:44

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big, penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:02:29

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

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That's liyfc .org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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for the finest in Christian literature of the past and present. Before we return to our guest today,

01:10:21

Mike Klein -Sasser, who is pastor of Grace Life Church in Richmond Center, Wisconsin, and our discussion specifically on his journey out from the

01:10:32

Hutterites into the doctrines of Sovereign Grace. Before we return to that discussion, I just have some important announcements to make.

01:10:38

Tomorrow on this program, my dear friend Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, the pastor of the

01:10:45

Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania, he is going to be my guest again and now we are starting with Dr.

01:10:55

Waddington a new series on the Book of Romans. He should be joining us two to three times a month and we will continue that subject until the

01:11:07

Lord makes it clear we should move on to another issue. But we hope that you join us for part one of this new series on the

01:11:14

Book of Romans tomorrow with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

01:11:22

Also folks, I hope as many of you as possible join me in Scranton, Pennsylvania on Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th at the

01:11:34

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors Conference, The Basics of Biblical Counseling.

01:11:40

This is going to be held at High Point Baptist Church, which is in Larksville, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Scranton.

01:11:49

And the speaker at this conference is Dale Johnson, who is the Executive Director of the

01:11:55

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, also known as ACBC.

01:12:01

And Dale is going to be speaking on such issues as the need for biblical counseling, the definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical counselor, secular and integration theories, what makes biblical counseling biblical, and he will have a

01:12:23

Q &A session with the audience as well. This starts Friday night, August 28th and continues all day

01:12:30

Saturday, August 29th until 5 p .m. I hope to see you as I'll be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio.

01:12:37

Please, if you come, make sure you visit the booth and give me greetings. That's Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th at the

01:12:46

High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania. For more details, go to biblicalcounseling .com

01:12:53

forward slash Scranton -PA -training.

01:12:58

That's biblicalcounseling .com forward slash Scranton, S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N -PA -training.

01:13:07

You can also find out more about the venue, High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, at highpointbaptist .church.

01:13:16

Highpointbaptist .church. I hope to see you there, August 28th and 29th. Finally, folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please, please, we are in urgent need of your donations.

01:13:30

We lost two, our two largest financial supporters during the pandemic hysteria from the coronavirus and their businesses were hurt so badly that they had to put giving to us on a hiatus.

01:13:47

Hopefully, they will return to their former giving. We don't know that for a fact. We are indeed hoping they will, but please help us make up for that loss.

01:13:57

Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:14:06

You can also mail us a check made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to the address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:14:14

You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what you believe.

01:14:20

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what

01:14:25

I believe. I would love to hear from you. Send me an email if that's the case at chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:14:32

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:14:44

Never do that and never put your family in financial jeopardy in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because those two things are indeed commands of God in the scriptures.

01:14:58

Providing for my show is not a command of God, but providing for your church and family certainly are commands.

01:15:06

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you also have money that perhaps you have saved since you haven't been going to sporting events lately, you haven't been going to the movies, you haven't been going to theatrical performances in theaters and playhouses, you haven't been going to concerts, you haven't been going to you haven't been going out fine dining, you haven't been going to bible conferences.

01:15:34

Well maybe you've got some money that you've been saving because of that and if you love the show and you don't want us to disappear, please share some of that with us.

01:15:42

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now. Also folks, if you are not a member of a local bible believing church,

01:15:50

I may be able to help you find a church no matter where in the world you live. I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth and I've helped many people find churches in their area and I hope

01:16:02

I can find you a church as well. I may be able to do so because of the number of churches that I have on lists.

01:16:09

So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put

01:16:14

I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest

01:16:20

Mike Klein -Sasser, pastor of Grace Life Church in Richmond Center, Wisconsin.

01:16:27

As we continue our discussion on one man's journey out from the Hutterites into the doctrines of grace, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:16:34

and we have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know where either in the

01:16:40

United States or in Canada or overseas are the majority of Hutterites.

01:16:46

Where are the majority of the Hutterites existing? The majority of the

01:16:54

Hutterites in the states are in North Dakota and South Dakota. Although they have moved into Minnesota quite a bit, the majority of them are in North Dakota and South Dakota.

01:17:08

There's actually quite a few also in Montana. In Canada there's some around Saskatchewan, around what they said in Canada, I can't remember the name of it.

01:17:29

But there's quite a few, actually I would say probably as many as in the states are in Canada.

01:17:37

But they are growing fairly big. They're multiplying and they're very successful because they have adopted industries into their way of life.

01:17:53

So North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana in the states and there's quite a few in Canada.

01:18:02

Also, I heard lately there's also a group in Japan. I have done no research on that, but I've heard there's some in Japan also.

01:18:13

Oh, so that's the Hutterites. I have seen, I remember years ago I saw on some secular documentary type television program, might have even been 60

01:18:25

Minutes, I can't remember. But I saw a special on a group that I thought back then were

01:18:32

Amish. But maybe there are also Amish folks in Japan. I know it's a tiny minority, obviously.

01:18:38

In fact, less than 1 % of the population of Japan is Christian in any way, shape or form.

01:18:45

But that is fascinating that there are Hutterites there. Well, thank you,

01:18:51

BB, for your question. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, a faithful listener to this program and also a generous financial supporter.

01:19:02

Grady says, greetings brothers Chris and Mike, are there other splinter groups from the

01:19:08

Amish community besides the Hutterites? What was that question again?

01:19:16

Are there other splinter groups from the Amish community besides the Hutterites? No, not as, there are some groups that kind of left the

01:19:29

Mennonites, but they do things a little bit different. But when they come, when you boil everything down, they're all in the same frying pan.

01:19:40

It's all the same stuff. It's all the same mesh. But there are groups, there are people that go by different names that have, you know, from the whole

01:19:51

Anabaptist Mennonite movement. For instance, I know that there's a group, I think they may be predominantly in Pennsylvania, I can't remember where, but there's a group called the

01:20:01

Dunkards that believe in trine immersion. They baptize you, they dunk you three times.

01:20:09

And there are other groups like that. So, but I'm not an expert on the issue.

01:20:15

But thank you, Grady, for your question. Let's see, we have

01:20:22

John in Bangor, Maine, who wants to know, this is a fascinating discussion on a subject that is rarely addressed anywhere in Christian media.

01:20:31

Do you have any intention to eventually write a book on your departure from the Hutterites?

01:20:38

I have not, I have not thought about it, but I have been approached one time if I would like to make a movie of it.

01:20:49

And I did open the door to that, but I never thought about writing a book, no.

01:20:55

What might happen, I don't know. Well, Ephraim Stolzfus is a former

01:21:04

Amish individual who came to Christ through the ministry of the pastor in Maryland I just mentioned to you earlier,

01:21:13

Chuck Volo. And Ephraim Stolzfus and another former

01:21:22

Amish individual who became a Christian are in a I think it's a two -part documentary.

01:21:28

The first part is called Trouble in Amish Paradise. And it gives their whole testimony of how they became

01:21:35

Christians, how they began to be shunned by the Amish community because of that. And really a fascinating documentary.

01:21:43

So perhaps we should get you to, you and Ephraim, I don't know the other individual that was in the

01:21:55

Perhaps he could assist you in getting that documentary made or that movie made. Okay, that'd be great.

01:22:04

Thank you, John in Bangor, Maine. Let's see here. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

01:22:15

And CJ says, I have heard from your previous interviews on the Amish that rampant in the

01:22:22

Amish community is things like child molestation and spousal abuse.

01:22:29

Are they as rampant among the Hutterites? As what

01:22:34

I know of the Hutterites, no, they are not even growing up in it. When I grew up in it, you hardly, hardly heard about it.

01:22:43

Even I've been gone for 20 some years. You do hear of a little abuse, even spousal abuse, but very, very little do you hear about child abuse?

01:22:54

No. And we have RJ in White Plains, New York.

01:23:02

RJ in White Plains, New York wants to know, I recall from your testimony earlier on in the program that you became an alcoholic and a drug addict.

01:23:14

Are those things present, meaning alcoholism and drug addiction amongst the

01:23:19

Hutterite community? Or did you begin drinking after you left them? No, I began drinking while I was in there.

01:23:28

Drugs are not an issue in the Hutterite community, as far as I know. But there are issues with alcohol, but drugs, no.

01:23:37

But I really, I really got into it after I left because, like I said,

01:23:44

I hitchhiked to Wisconsin. I was dropped off at a truck stop. I got in with a bunch of people

01:23:49

I shouldn't have, but that's when really my life started spiring downhill. But because you try to grab on to whoever will accept you.

01:24:00

So no, drugs, no. Alcohol, there are some issues, but I, my journey, my life really took a spiral when

01:24:08

I left into drugs and alcohol. Well, I am,

01:24:14

I've got to hear more about the radical, absolutely revolutionary transformation in your understanding of how we are made right with God coming from the endless treadmill of works righteousness in a group like the

01:24:34

Hutterites and discovering that Jesus paid it all. As the hymn says, all to him

01:24:40

I owe. Sin has left its crimson stain. He washed me white as snow. The fact that this is a totally opposite understanding of how we are, how we come from being at war with God to being at peace with God, as my friend,

01:25:00

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has very aptly put it. And he was primarily speaking of Roman Catholicism, I believe when talking about this, but any system that depends on our performance in order to not only win the favor of God and earn the favor of God, but also maintain the favor of God is really not peace with God at all.

01:25:27

It's a ceasefire that can erupt into a full -scale war at any given moment when you lose your salvation.

01:25:36

We, on the other hand, believe that salvation is all of grace. By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, we believe in the true shalom, the true peace that's a perfect peace, an unending peace, a peace that can never be taken away from us if we are truly

01:25:52

His. If you could describe more in detail about that transformation. Okay, yeah, so quickly on the world's religion, the world's righteousness, the

01:26:05

Bible says they have their reward in full. I mean, this is what they got. But for me, a verse that really, see,

01:26:14

I knew, looking back, I would probably say I believed the doctrines of grace, but I had no idea.

01:26:20

But a verse that really ministered to me was in Philippians chapter 1 and verse 6, and I'm sure of this, that He will begin a good work and He will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

01:26:33

I was, when I went through all what I was going through in three years and settling on the doctrines of grace, settling on Scripture, that verse was,

01:26:44

I don't want to say it was just my anchor, but I was anchored on that verse. I pled with God and I told

01:26:50

God that I did not save myself, I did not come looking for you, and the

01:26:55

Bible says you began this work and you're going to complete it. But as I was studying

01:27:01

Scripture, that verse was really, really, that was my anchor in them times.

01:27:08

And also in Philippians, if you go to chapter 3, it also says in verse 12, not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me

01:27:24

His own. As those verses became alive and real to me, I was starting to realize that I have been laboring and exhausting myself for something that has no value.

01:27:38

And as I was starting to listen to men and to read books, and I do read, but I'm very careful who

01:27:46

I read. I listen to men. John MacArthur has been very encouraging to me, Paul Washer, Jeff Knoblet, but my anchor also, my anchor mostly was the

01:27:58

Scriptures. God Himself revealing Himself to the power of the Holy Spirit, that He is the

01:28:04

Savior of His elect people. He is the substitutionary for our sins, for His people.

01:28:11

And going through all of this and then coming to the part of limited atonement, that was incredible going through that battle, looking at my children, and then

01:28:23

I came to realize I have to trust the Lord in this. I cannot save them. I cannot save anybody.

01:28:29

It is God's will that men should be saved.

01:28:35

And Ephesians, and I started preaching through the book of Ephesians, and I was, I just wept,

01:28:40

I just marveled that Ephesians where it talks about the gift, the salvation, the gift of God that any man should boast.

01:28:48

And so it was an incredible transformation in my life. And I will say this, and I will encourage anybody that is listening to me that is going through that right now,

01:28:57

I will warn them and encourage them. When I went through it, and the congregation told me afterwards, and sometimes through it,

01:29:06

I was not very graceful. I was preaching so hard,

01:29:12

I thought everybody should understand it, everybody should see it. But if I could do it over, but God forgave me and all that, but if I could do it over,

01:29:22

I would preach with love and grace. Because the Bible teaches very clearly, if you don't have love, you don't have anything.

01:29:29

And I felt at times, I, going through that transformation, I did not show much grace because it was,

01:29:36

I was so overwhelmed by it that I forgot to show it. You know what I'm saying? And so it was, it was an incredible transformation for me.

01:29:44

Well, praise God. Let's see, we have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, was there anything that you had to discover for the first time when you discovered the doctrines of grace that were not specifically about soteriology, but about the

01:30:04

Godhead and things like that? Did you believe in the Trinity before, when you were still among the

01:30:11

Hutterites, and the deity of Christ, and his bodily resurrection, and things like that?

01:30:19

Well, amongst the Hutterites, I really, I really didn't, I would say that I really didn't care about the gospel.

01:30:26

When I was in the Mennonite setting, no, I did not have to discover that, because like we talked earlier, they do teach the gospel in the

01:30:37

Mennonite settings. But no, I was straight and all that. I was convinced in my heart, according to Scripture, about the death, about the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the power of the

01:30:49

Spirit. I was, no, so to Andrew's question, it was more on the doctrines of grace, and the depravity of man.

01:30:59

It was more along that line that was really, that was really transforming my life.

01:31:05

And I found out it's not Baptist talk, and it's not Calvinistic talk, it's biblical talk.

01:31:11

It's biblical language. And so that was mostly what really did me going through that, rather than being followed.

01:31:23

It was so Arminianism. It was so that of righteous works. It was so ingrained in us, indoctrinated, that we have to be re -indoctrinated with the

01:31:33

Scriptures. Susan Margaret from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, wants to know, are you aware of whether or not your parents and your sisters have ever heard you preach on a recording?

01:31:48

Yes, they have. Really? Yes. And when it was, is when that, when we could not meet for church, we had, we set up online preaching, and they do have iPhones now amongst them.

01:32:07

So we send them a link, and they listen to it. And by the way, just to let you know, my mom also, maybe she doesn't want me to say this, but because she'll probably get in trouble, but she's been here a few times visiting, and so she came to church.

01:32:23

Wow. She did come. Wow, praise God, but your dad did not come. Yes, he did.

01:32:29

Yes, my mom and dad. Oh, wow. Well, praise God. How about your sisters? Was it one or two sisters?

01:32:35

I don't remember. Two sisters. Have either of them come? No, they have not.

01:32:41

But have they heard you? They've heard me preach. They've heard me preach at funerals and stuff like that, yes.

01:32:49

What has their reaction been, your parents and your sisters? Um, sad to say, um, it's hard because, and, um, they kind of, they kind of look down on you.

01:33:06

I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to, I got to be careful how I say this, not that they're ashamed of me, but they, it's hard for them because in that setting, in that system, in that setting, when you're a preacher or something like that, outside when you leave, you don't amount to much because they rate themselves by the lifestyle they have, the money they make, and stuff like that.

01:33:31

And you know, as preachers, we don't make a lot of money. I'm not saying that I have needs, but I'm just saying it's just, it's hard.

01:33:38

They kind of look down on me. I hate to say that, but that's the way it is.

01:33:44

Well, that's interesting because it doesn't sound like uh, the Hutterites are known for flourishing in finances.

01:33:53

Yeah, but nowadays, nowadays they do more than ever. Oh, okay. Like I said, they have adopted industries.

01:34:01

They're doing, they're very successful in running businesses, not just farming, but they're venturing out doing more industry.

01:34:13

Well, we have to go to our final break. It's any intention to send us an email with a question, please do it as soon as possible, because we are rapidly running out of time.

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01:46:57

This is Chris Arntzen and we are returning now to our discussion with Pastor Mike Kleinsasser of Grace Life Church in Richmond Center, Wisconsin, and his personal journey out from the

01:47:12

Hutterites into the doctrines of Sovereign Grace. And if you'd like to ask us a question, please send it in as quickly as possible because we're running out of time.

01:47:20

ChrisArntzen at gmail .com ChrisArntzen at gmail .com

01:47:26

We have an anonymous listener who says, I was never in any kind of a church like yours, but I have been involved in very legalistic churches before.

01:47:37

The doctrines of Sovereign Grace rescued me not only spiritually and salvifically, but even mentally from the trauma of being pressured constantly by overbearing authoritarian leaders and a system of salvation that was nightmarish.

01:47:57

I was wondering if your family that have remained in the Hutterite community have told you that they are convinced you are going to hell, and that they have no hope for you, even though they've heard you preach and hear your love for Christ and for all he has done for you?

01:48:17

They have not specifically said that I will go to hell, but I've heard them say that other people that left the commune will go to hell.

01:48:30

But it's interesting what the writer said, because I must say amen.

01:48:37

Because it is mentally draining, you are so tired, you are so exhausted, trying to please this

01:48:47

God that has created you, and all the weight that is laid on man to live this life.

01:48:55

But they will say that if you leave the commune, you will go to hell.

01:49:03

You will. But there's a scripture in John 1 that really was encouraging to me because of this mental tiredness in John 1 verse 13, who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

01:49:20

We are born again because of the will of God, not the will of man. So I can relate with what the writer is saying, but it is a very treacherous, mentally draining lifestyle, trying to please

01:49:38

God on your own strength. Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York wants to know, have you heard of many others who have left the

01:49:47

Hutterites and have become brothers and sisters in Christ? It's sad to say.

01:49:54

Now I'm going to say this as plainly as I can. A lot of people leave the

01:50:00

Hutterite community, like I said in the beginning. You're so isolated from everything, from the outside world.

01:50:06

When you leave, you let your own just about to anybody that will show you any kind of, that will show you any kind of favor or something.

01:50:16

There's a lot of people that have left and said they're Christians. But I got,

01:50:22

I got new sad news. A lot of them are in the prosperity gospel movement. Some are in so many other churches.

01:50:31

So to answer the question, they would claim they're Christians, but most of them, their lives would portray that they're not.

01:50:41

And let's see here. We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and he says, do you intend to make more repeated visits to the

01:50:58

Hutterite community to evangelize them? Yes. In fact, we were invited as Gray's Life Church, we were invited to come and preach in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, to plant a church.

01:51:14

So what we did a couple of years ago in 18, I believe it was, or 19, we went, it's a six hour drive for us.

01:51:21

So we drove out there every other week. And the first Sunday that I preached out there, 80 people showed up.

01:51:30

And we started preaching the Doctrines of Grace. We started preaching on sin. I think after about a half a year,

01:51:36

I think it dwindled down to two or three people. But out of all this, there's a young man that is striving.

01:51:45

We found him a church out in Sioux Falls that believes the Doctrines of Grace and teaches them. So that's a good thing.

01:51:52

But my heart is always open to evangelize them. Yes. Well, I want to make sure, before we go to any additional listener questions, that you have at least five minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about your journey before we go off the air.

01:52:15

Well, the foremost of my heart and mind is this. All I've talked about, a lot of people can relate with me in being in a self -righteous salvation, which is no salvation according to Scripture.

01:52:32

But as we go through our lives and we come to the Doctrines of Grace, I am a little bit troubled now because you see in the reform movement, there's people that have all the right terminologies.

01:52:48

They have all the right theologies. But sometimes the methodology is not there.

01:52:55

And my heart cries tears because I know without a shred of a doubt that God Almighty, through the blood of Jesus Christ, by the power of His Spirit, He saved me.

01:53:09

And the Doctrines of Grace are so humbling. And I plead with our people and I tell them, if the

01:53:16

Doctrines of Grace, the Scriptures, are not costing you, your heart will explode in worship and humility.

01:53:24

That God Almighty, before the foundations of the world, would have chosen you to worship

01:53:31

Him. What a privilege we have to bow before the Almighty God and to worship Him. The Bible teaches in the book of Revelation that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

01:53:40

My dear friends, as believers, as born -again believers, we have the privilege and the opportunity now to bend our knees, to bow and to profess

01:53:50

Him and confess Him as Lord Jesus Christ. So I guess what my encouragement is this, no matter the journey you have come from, end of the day, we are all standing before God.

01:54:03

The Bible teaches us there's a judgment day coming. And I want to encourage the listeners, those of you that are converted, those of you that love

01:54:11

Christ, that want to love Him more today than they did yesterday, just set out, just exhaust your lives for Him.

01:54:19

Because the reality is this, very soon, very soon, all of us will stand before Him.

01:54:28

And the Bible teaches us in the book of Hebrews, it is appointed for men once to die and then a judgment.

01:54:34

We don't want to come before God Almighty, as converted people, who have wasted our lives.

01:54:41

We as believers, we have a tremendous responsibility to be ambassadors for the

01:54:47

Lord Jesus Christ. We have been given a message of reconciliation, to plead with the world, to be reconciled to God.

01:54:54

Now, He has His chosen people that will be saved. That is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to plead with people, to be reconciled with the

01:55:04

Almighty God. So my encouragement is, through my journey, I'll say this, I am actually getting more excited about the gospel, about the doctrines of grace, about the sovereignty of God every day.

01:55:19

Because I am marveling, I'm serious brother, I am marveling that God allows me, that God gives me the privilege to bow because I have been cleansed and washed through the blood of Jesus Christ.

01:55:33

And He, as it says in the book of Philippians, He that began a good work and you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

01:55:39

What a life that we have to live. We don't have to worry about this pandemic.

01:55:47

We have to be careful and mindful of other people. But this thing does not control us.

01:55:52

Christ is the one that controls us. I told our people last week, I said mercenaries need to be rewarded because with money, self -righteous people have to be governed by law.

01:56:07

We as believers are controlled and governed by Jesus Christ. By the law of Christ, the law of Christ on our heart, love as I have loved you.

01:56:15

So that is my encouragement. What I am seeing more and more coming out from where I come from, where I am today, being able to praise

01:56:25

God, lift up holy hands and worshiping Him for who He is. So that's my thought on that.

01:56:31

Well, praise God, what an eloquent and moving and obviously heartfelt appeal to our listeners to come to the true and merciful and loving grace of our sovereign

01:56:53

Lord. And I think it might be wise for us to also just briefly in the very short time that we have left, eradicate the misconceptions or even the slanderous caricatures of what we believe.

01:57:11

There are many who are involved in works, righteousness, religions and cults and so on, who wrongly say that we believe because salvation is all of God, they think that that means that we are off the hook in regard to sin, that we can live licentiously and even satanically for the entirety of our lives after coming to Christ, allegedly, that we don't have to worry about whether we're going to be in hell because we have this one -way ticket that we have to heaven and therefore we can live any way we choose.

01:57:57

But that is totally foreign, not only from the Bible, which is the most important thing, but it's totally foreign from the writings of the greatest

01:58:04

Reformed and Calvinistic preachers, teachers, scholars, authors and theologians that the world has ever known.

01:58:11

Am I right? And you know what, the people that say that, that's their default line, they go back and say, well, you live like you want to live, but I cannot live like,

01:58:25

I live like I want to live because I live like how I can live. Believers are the only ones that can live like they want to live because a sinner can only sin.

01:58:35

And the Bible teaches us in the book of Ephesians, chapter 2, verse 10, where we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for what?

01:58:44

For good work, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So this notion that we can live as we want to live, first of all, converted people do not want to live as they used to live.

01:59:00

Converted people now have a heart that has been changed, a heart of flesh, heart of stone has been taken.

01:59:05

I'll give them a heart of flesh to honor God and to love him, love our God with all the heart, mind and soul.

01:59:11

We cannot do it perfectly. I wish we could, but that is our heart's desire. So we are striving day by day to walk in the works, the good works that God has prepared before us, before the foundation of the world, and we should walk in them.

01:59:28

That is our desire. Amen. And we're out of time, brother, and I just want to make sure our listeners know that they can go to Facebook and look up Grace Life Church of Richmond Center, and that will take you to all the information that you need for the

01:59:41

Grace Life Church of Richmond Center, Wisconsin. Well, thank you so much, brother. Thank you, everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

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I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.